WEBVTT - The Assault on American Academics 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:14.720 Good morning, peepsend. Welcome to wok F Daily with Meet 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:19.119 your Girl Danielle Moody. Recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:23.479 you know, oftentimes when Jonathan and I get ready to 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:27.240 talk these days, you know, a lot of our conversations, 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:30.960 well most of my conversations are never like pre thought out. 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:34.720 It's really on the issues of the day, how we're feeling, 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:37.879 which is why you get the passion and the conversational 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:42.479 tone that you receive. I wanted to have a different 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:47.600 conversation today on the show than Jonathan did, but we 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:51.280 went with Jonathan's thoughts because I thought that they were 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:55.520 incredibly important. You know, we talked to him on a 0:00:55.560 --> 0:01:00.920 regular basis because he is one of the foremost thinkers 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:06.960 on white privilege, white anxiety, white you know, rage and 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:10.760 the like, and its connection to guns and gun culture 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:15.440 in America, and as we continue to see the rise 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:21.919 in domestic terrorism at the hands of white Americans, it's 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:26.520 incredibly important to continue having those conversations. But today Jonathan 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:30.560 wanted to talk about his role as a professor and 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:35.000 how universities and colleges across this country are under attack 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:42.000 by the right wing fascist Republican Party that is seeking 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:44.600 to control the minds of the youth so that they 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:48.240 can control the future. And it is something that is 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:53.080 always front of mind for me. But given Jonathan's you know, 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:59.240 personal connection as a professor, as somebody who does the work, 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:03.000 you know, to speak at different conferences and to travel 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:07.520 and speak on different campuses, he shares stories today about 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:11.600 how he's seeing a shift in conversation and culture that 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:15.880 is coming from both inside of universities and faculty and 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:19.200 the pressure outside that is coming in. And it's a 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:23.200 really important conversation. And I continue to say this that 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:29.160 whether or not you have you know, children inside of 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:33.680 the universities and colleges or K through twelve, does not matter, 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:37.919 because education is the foundation of our democracy, and once 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:43.760 educators and those students start receiving hate and pushback, it 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:48.920 is a threat to our ability to function as a democracy. 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:53.640 And so this matters to everyone. So I hope that 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:57.640 you enjoy this conversation that Jonathan and I get into, 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:01.760 and as always, we appreciate the shout outs and critiques 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:05.080 that you give us on social media. So I'm really 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.120 looking forward to hearing what you all think about this conversation. 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:10.280 If you're a patron. You know, get at me in 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:13.200 the comments below this video. If you are listening in 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:17.800 another place on iHeart Apple, Spotify, you know, hit me 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:21.040 up on social at D two cents D E two 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:26.560 c E N T S. Conversation with doctor Jonathan Metzel 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:32.120 is coming up next. Folks. You know that whenever we 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:35.000 have the opportunity to speak with our friend in house, 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:39.720 doctor doctor Jonathan metsl we are always thrilled. And I 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:41.840 had an idea of what I wanted to talk about 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.880 today and Jonathan said, yeah, I don't want to talk 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:51.080 about that, which is totally fine. And so you know, Jonathan, 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:54.720 you bring up the fact that you wanted to connect 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:58.440 on something more personal, which is the fact that you 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:05.120 are an esteemed professor at Vanderbilt University, which is in Tennessee, 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:10.960 a red state, and talking about your experience right now 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:18.000 of working under I'm assuming really at times difficult conditions. 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:19.359 So take it away. 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:22.880 I'll start with three data points, and by the way, 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:25.360 we can talk about I mean, definitely much more to 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:28.920 talk about guns. The whole the guns is not going 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:33.440 anywhere unfortunately unfortunately. But I guess there are three data 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.880 points that I'll just pose as provocations that then we 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:40.320 can jump off for our conversation. Data Point one is 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:42.880 a bit of a mailbag. I love all the feedback 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:46.080 we get from listeners to this podcast. It's fantastic and 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:51.000 it's amazing that people are so engaged. And one comment 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:53.440 was I wouldn't say a critique of me, but it 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:56.760 was basically like, I'm not being strident enough in a way, 0:04:56.839 --> 0:05:01.039 I'm not being in your face enough, I'm not critiquing enough, 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.360 and I don't take it personally like I think it's 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.360 partially true, like I'm sure I'm more measured than other 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:10.440 people who are in the media or social media, people 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:12.920 like I feel like I have a responsibility as an 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:16.200 academic sometimes that I can't say stuff that I can't 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:18.320 support in a certain kind of way. But the person said, 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:22.240 why wasn't I being more And it was partially, you know, 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:24.920 last week, you and I talked about burn it down, 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:27.599 and I was pushing back and saying I can't. I 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:31.000 just can't say burn it down. And it's partially who 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.880 I am as a person. But it's also like I 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:36.400 still feel like as a as an academic and as 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:39.839 a researcher, I want to take positions that I can support, 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:42.599 and maybe that's you know, I just feel sometimes I 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:47.360 wouldn't say jealous of people who like Jua Jali or 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:49.359 other people like that, who are you know, friends of 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.520 mine or you or other people like that, But I 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:54.120 feel like for me, I'm kind of living in these 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:56.880 two worlds, and one of the worlds is like, where's 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:00.000 your evidence for all that stuff? And the other world, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:05.560 like when I'm on Twitter, for example, is more like 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:09.279 the more strident stuff I would say, the more I 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.600 would get rewarded on social media for saying things like that. 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:15.159 And so data point number one was just that piece 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:17.320 of feedback that we got a couple of weeks ago 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:22.039 about why wasn't I being more vocal? Which I take 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:25.880 and I thought about that comment a lot. The number 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:29.480 two is the state of academia. Right now, I teach 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:34.159 at a private school. I feel relatively protected, but I 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:38.640 have colleagues all over the country who are in trouble 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:41.480 for stuff they've said, and even at Vanderbilt. So at 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:45.360 Vanderbilt we had professors who I've won colleague who gave 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:47.880 grand rounds in the medical school, a big lecture in 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:52.080 twenty sixteen, and usually they record grand rounds. They put 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:57.919 them up online. They you know, they're archived. And what 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:01.560 happened was Matt Wallash and all the right wing crowd 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:05.800 found this twenty sixteen thing, doctored it a little bit, 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:08.400 cut it, put it up online, and it was a 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:12.040 swarm of stuff where this person who probably wasn't thinking 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:16.640 it was about transsexuality and the importance of paying attention 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:20.760 to trans health in medical clinics. But all of a sudden, 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:24.360 like my colleague was under attack. They were meant writing 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:27.880 the thing, you know, the chancellor, the provost, my colleague 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:31.400 actually to go into live in another place for a month. 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:34.760 And so in a way, there's something about like what's 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:37.880 happening to professors, which I think just puts I don't 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:39.840 think we're being silenced, but I do think the stakes 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.000 are very real right now being an academic in a. 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:44.080 Public I mean, I just want to pause for a second, 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:47.520 because like you just kind of glossed over the fact 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:50.120 that your friend went to go live in a different 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.040 place for a month. Yeah, because they wanted to live 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:54.880 in a different place for a month, or because they 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:58.160 felt that where they were living was unsafe, because they 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:00.880 were being targeted, Because these are things that I don't 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.480 want to just kind of rush over or a gloss 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:09.640 over that you're changing your physical surroundings for safety. 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.840 Well some people, so I'll put it all in this 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:15.200 huge bucket. I realized this is a massive bucket. And 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:17.640 I will say that even when I had remembered the 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:20.600 Nazis came. When I gave my talk in twenty nineteen 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:25.520 at the Politics and Pros they published my utility bill 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:29.640 online and renew my address, and the same thing happened 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:31.840 to her, and then she had to go into protection 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:34.520 because she was getting all these things. And so partially 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:38.120 there is there's all this kind of threat of the 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:40.960 right wing going after academics right now. And on one hand, 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:42.440 you want to say, you know, to hell with that 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:44.840 and burn it all down and all that kind of stuff. 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:47.640 And certainly that's obviously I wrote a book Dying of Whiteness. 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:51.000 My next book's even going to be more controversial, so 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.000 it's not like I'm backing down from that fight. But 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:54.760 I do think that partially in the back of my 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:59.160 mind there is this thing, which is, man, do I 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:01.560 want this to be doctored and show up on right 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:05.480 wing media or something? And it's very real, right, I'm 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:09.720 giving a talk in a month at a major DEI conference. 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:12.720 I'm the keynote speaker at a big DEI conference, and 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:15.600 I'm already getting like bombarded with a right wing email 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:20.800 and right wing you know, this concerned student activist group. 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.480 So even saying that I'm speaking at a DEI conference 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:26.680 right now brings this response. And so that number two 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:28.679 is just that there are stakes for people who are 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:34.240 public intellectuals right now that are professional but political, social, 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:36.880 all that kind of stuff. And then I guess the 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:40.880 third thing is colleges are there is this kind of 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:45.079 cancel culture blowback, and I mean, colleges are getting more 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:53.000 conservative honestly, you know places are colleges are basically saying 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:56.400 conservative voices aren't being heard enough. You can see what's 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.120 happening in the universities in Florida, but it's happening in Tennessee. 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.080 So there is a pushback about just college. 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:08.800 Right. This is what I will say about what is 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:14.080 happening and the domino effect out of Florida and it's 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:17.920 spreading around the country with regard to conservative voices, is 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:20.880 that it is not conservative voices that are being silenced 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:24.760 and don't get position on college campuses. It is racism, 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:29.880 white supremacy, patriarchy, homophobia, and transphobia that should not have 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:33.640 a place in academia. And the fact that there is 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:38.840 no there there is no distinction that can be made 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:45.439 between what is the right wing fascist Republican movement and 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.000 hatred that there is, like, there is no there is 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.840 no place for it in academia. And so when they 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:55.920 go off and they say, oh, well, the liberal media 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:58.200 or the liberal this, that and the other thing, it's 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:02.760 like there is no two guides to transphobia, to racism 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:06.520 and to bigotry. And so because they have set up 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:12.679 this false dichotomy between those that believe in equity and 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:16.920 inclusion of all people and voices and their denial of 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:21.640 that fact and using religion as their shield so that 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:26.560 they can continue to proselytize their bullshit, is where the 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:29.800 problem is. And the fact that folks don't push back 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:32.760 in very serious ways, and it is left to students 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:36.520 to either not show up or to protest on their 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:40.160 campuses for their rights to be educated in the way 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:43.000 that they want is where we are and where the 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:46.880 Republican Party has wanted to bring this country because education 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.280 allows there to be an expansion of thought and a 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:54.920 creation of empathy that they don't want, because empathy then 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:58.280 would find us in a place where we're questioning policies 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:01.359 that adversely affect those that are most marginalized. 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:05.160 No, I mean, obviously that's you've just described my scholarship 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.040 for the past twenty years. So of course I totally 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:11.880 agree with you. And DEI offices, as you know, are 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:15.040 being closed across the country in the aftermath of the 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:18.520 Supreme Court horrible decision, and I made a decision, like 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:23.040 you know, I'm speaking at tons of DEI conferences going forward, 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.320 and at the White Frivolege conference and at the People's 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:30.400 Conference in Seattle. I've lined my year with conferences where 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:32.840 I'm going to be supporting the importance of diversity, and 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:37.280 so I'm very public about that. But I and and 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:42.400 and you know, I'm it comes at a price, right, 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:46.480 which is but the stuff I get, the crazy stuff 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:48.640 I get in my email or on Twitter that I 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:50.960 kind of it's kind of predicted. You know, there's a 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:55.400 there's a professor's watch list, and I'm on it, and 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:57.960 it's put out by I think turning point one of 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:00.280 these big you know, the one Trump speaks at all time. 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.160 So there's a lot of people on these a lot 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:04.760 of liberal professors. We're all on this professor watch list 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.040 right now, And it means every time you give a talk, 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:11.560 conservatives are coming and taping you and blah blah blah 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:14.200 blah blah. So it's just an interesting time enough for me, 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:17.760 that is overt, right, that is clear, and I totally 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.760 support exactly what you just said, which is this is 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:23.960 this is the battle for the minds of our nation 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:26.079 going forward, right, I mean, are we going to step 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:29.040 back from the progress we've made about equity? I mean, 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.240 when I wrote my book Protest Psychosis, I studied medical 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:34.680 journals in the fifties where race wasn't even a category 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.840 of analysis. Nobody even took race data because they didn't 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:40.080 they only did research on white people. So for me, 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.280 that's the overt part, and that's the battle, that's the 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.040 battle line. I see that. But then there's more subtle 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:47.400 stuff of being on a college campus, like I've had 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:52.120 a series of examples of like, you know, we were 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:54.720 at a faculty meeting for another department and somebody did 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.679 a land statement at the beginning of the faculty meeting, 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.160 and as we were leaving, somebody in the pack, where 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:04.640 as we were walking out, said, thankfully, we're not going 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:07.760 to have to hear that woke stuff anymore. A professor said, 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.680 woke staff, And I thought, how do you get off 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:13.280 saying woke staff? You know what I mean? Like, it's 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:18.520 obviously white professor. And so I guess people felt like, oh, 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:20.760 the liberals had gone too far with these land statements 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:23.280 and blah blah blah pronouns and all that, and so 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.400 it's kind of that it's the subtle, everyday policing that's 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:28.400 going to happen on college campuses. For me, that's the 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:33.000 bigger concern is what happens in the everyday world where 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:37.400 people are, where these kind of conservative policing views become 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:42.480 the norm, especially in places where they're like look at 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.440 Florida pushing out a lot of our West Virginia pushing 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:50.440 out humanity's faculty, literature faculty, language faculty and replacing them 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:53.800 with more more conservative faculty. So it's more that subtle. 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:58.600 Remember that book Hitler's Willing Executioners about the Holocaust. It's 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.040 kind of the everyday stuff that I feel like, And 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:03.720 I guess again, This was all brought on for me 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:09.080 because of the review, the comment for our conversation where 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:10.920 somebody said I was holding back and I said, man, 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:14.840 am I holding back now because of because of this climate? 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:15.840 And what does that mean? 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:22.840 I think that people want to express their frustration anger differently, right. 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.600 I am somebody that people come to to listen to, 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:31.600 because my expression of anger is very outward and is 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:35.840 steeped in a lot of passion, because I am genuinely 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:39.880 really angry and outdone on a regular basis watching the 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:44.080 dismantling of a country that I have hopes for, right 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:49.120 and had pride in and wanting wanted as a public 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:53.480 servant to make it better. And so it is it's heartbreaking, right, 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.040 and so my rage comes from that place. I think 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:59.840 that for you, as a professor, as you know, a 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:04.720 researcher and an analyst, it is really providing the data 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:10.200 points and providing the information to back up what it 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:13.480 is that some of us you know, yell about, right, 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.240 And I think that it is important for people to 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:22.280 realize that not everyone expresses their emotion of this moment 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.720 in the same way. But I think to your point, 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:29.600 with regard to what we're seeing happen at college campuses, 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:32.160 and you know, you can look at I think it 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.960 is a new school in Florida. I think that that 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.000 may be the name of it. I'm not one hundred percent. 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:38.960 Sure that's right, that's right. 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:43.520 That you know, there are students who were coming in 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.920 for their fourth year, right their their final year, their 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:50.400 senior year, and they're leaving and they're transferring. And there's 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.200 a school in Massachusetts that has opened up their doors 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:58.640 particularly to those not only the faculty that have fled 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:01.680 because they've lost forty percent of their faculty because of 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:08.360 the board of trustees that Ron De Santis has put 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:13.600 in place that are about essentially what I will refer 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:17.640 to as the dumbing down and indoctrination of America's youth. 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:20.679 Because just like the Moms for Liberty, they did not 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:24.400 make a misstep by quoting Hitler in their first newsletter 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.119 that they put out saying that like, if you have 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:29.800 the youth, you have the future. That was not a misstep. 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:33.280 They were not. That was in an accident. It is 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:37.160 the fact that education has always been the ground zero 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:41.199 for any movement in this country, whether that movement is 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.960 backwards or forwards. Because we know that education is power 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:47.840 and that's what the right knows. And so they're like, 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.920 if we can ban critical thought, if we can erase 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:55.359 people of color, people with disabilities, queer people from having 0:17:55.440 --> 0:18:00.360 any place right on our library shelves, then you can 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:04.560 continue with the lie of white exceptionalism and no one 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:06.320 will come for our privileges. 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.040 And let me let me just say, there are a 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:13.520 million times in our conversations where like I'll have some 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.480 scattered thought and then you'll say something powerfully and clearly, 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:18.320 and I'll be like, man, I wish I could have 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:20.720 said that, like Danielle just said it, you know, like 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:27.960 you it's not just anger, Like you're a very clear, articulate, forceful, 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.239 convincing speaker, right, I mean I don't. I don't think 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.440 it's just like because I'm in academia, I got to 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:36.520 be like repressed white guy in a box or something 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:39.280 like that, you know, Like you know what I mean, Like, 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:41.199 I think I think it's I think it's I think 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:43.119 it's I think it's incredible, and I think it's important. 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:45.800 I think it's needed. And and the other part, though, 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:49.120 is there's pressure on academics right now. I just want 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:51.399 people to realize that, and I'm not asking for sympathy 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:53.600 or anything like that, but like Trump, his main platform 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:56.520 is if I win, I'm not just going after universities. 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.679 I'm going after the crediting boards. And and then it's like, 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:02.439 you know, you're going to see a lot of that, 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:04.399 But there's also a lot of subtle stuff happening. I mean, 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:08.359 University Wisconsin just opened a gun study center that is 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.199 funded by the gun industry, and so there's going to 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:13.800 be a lot of gun research that is showing the 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:15.960 benefits of carrying a weapon and stuff like that. Like 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:21.560 universities are becoming you know, playing grounds, battlegrounds for what 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:23.920 is an idea? What is a fact? What is it fact? 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:26.119 We've had that played out in the media a lot, 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:28.640 and I think that universities are going to be the 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:31.760 next place. On one hand, that kind of I mean 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:35.439 that cancel culture stuff hopefully is dying down. But I 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.840 just think this question of like what is academic knowledge, 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:40.520 what certifies it, what it credits it, how do we 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:43.040 validate it? It really will matter who wins the presidential 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.639 election for the future of universities. And so if you 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:50.320 hear academics like me kind of hedging our bets a 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:53.239 little bit. It's just that we're under a lot of 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:55.240 you know, there's a lot of push and pull right now, 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.800 I would say, and it makes the work of standing 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.480 up for inequity even more important. Right, this is the 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.840 time where the people who care step to the front 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.360 of the line. And and and I hope that that's 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:10.720 what I'm doing. But it's just again, this message made 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:13.560 me think, like my holding back because of this moment. 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:21.440 Everything that you're saying is how fascism and authoritarianism works, right, 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:25.520 it is. It is Martin Neam Mohler's poem. First they 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:29.080 come for right. First they come for the politicians and 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:32.400 the activists and those that are outspoken, right. Then they 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:36.159 come for the professors and the academics and the thinkers right, 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:39.760 and the innovators and the change makers, and then they 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:43.600 come for everybody else. So if you can control how 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:47.080 people think and the information that they receive, you can 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:51.760 control them. And so they're they're not doing this under 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:54.760 the cloak of darkness. They are doing it in broad daylight. 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:58.200 And for everyone you know, folks that listen to this show, 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:00.720 they are one hundred percent woke. But I say to them, 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:04.240 all the time, share the messages, share the episodes, push 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:06.439 it out to those that are on the fence, to 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:08.840 those that say to you and shrug, oh, this can't 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:11.920 happen here, and tell them that it is happening right, 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:15.840 like we're watching this. The other day, I interviewed on 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:21.640 my other show, The New Abnormal, I interviewed Ruth ben Guillott, right, 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:25.320 the author of Strong Men, and I said, you know, Ruth, 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:28.639 we follow each other on social media, and I, you know, 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.640 literally will retweet everything that you put out. You study, 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:37.439 you know, Europe, You've studied European fascism and in Italy 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:40.119 and Mussolini, and her book strong Men From Mussolini to 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:43.280 the Present came out in twenty twenty as kind of 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:46.440 a precursor to where we are, and she goes, there 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:49.639 isn't a thing that is happening that doesn't mirror what 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:53.040 happened in Europe. She's like, there is nothing that I 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:55.639 can point to you to say, well, it may not happen. 0:21:56.520 --> 0:22:01.000 I'm like, I'm like, damn, Ruth's. 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.679 Except the methods are better. They just had Lenny Rievensnall 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:07.840 and we've got like, you know, Elon Muskin, Starlink and 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:10.800 everything else. So no, it's it's a it's a it's 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:15.119 a moment. It really is a moment, and I'm in 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:16.919 the middle of it, right. I mean, my next book 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:19.040 is going to be my next book is going to 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:21.840 show how a naked white mass shooter is an embodiment 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:24.480 of the values of white America. Like it's not like 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:27.880 I'm back and down. But I would also say, I'm 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:30.840 I'm just aware now of this in a way I 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:32.200 haven't always been. 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:34.280 Yeah, And I think that it's you know, I think 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:37.040 it's important. I'm excited for your new book, which you 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:39.959 said what it comes out in January, right, January thirtieth, 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:42.320 so it'll it'll I mean, it'll be out at the 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:44.680 top of the year. So I can't wait for us 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:46.639 to really be able to go in depth and have 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:50.359 a conversation about it. But you know, I guess my 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:54.159 recommendation and I'll ask you, Jonathan as well. My recommendation 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:58.359 to folks, whether or not you have you know, family members, 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:03.040 kids that are in you know, the university and college systems, 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:07.480 is that these are what the education is, what fundamentally 0:23:07.600 --> 0:23:10.600 is the foundation of our democracy. So whether or not, 0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:13.440 like you need to be invested in what is happening, 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:19.680 whether or not you have immediate you know, a relationship 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:23.199 to said universities or K through twelve schools because you 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:26.359 don't have kids like this is going to and is 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:31.040 affecting us all in how we're able to speak, you know, openly. 0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:33.360 And I just will remind folks that when I went 0:23:33.440 --> 0:23:37.119 to in twenty fifteen, when I traveled to Israel and 0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:41.520 Palestine and came back to the United States, I came 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:46.000 back with PTSD because I was there and I recognized 0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:48.000 that all of a sudden, I wasn't able to sit 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:51.520 down at dinners and have free conversation about like my 0:23:51.720 --> 0:23:56.800 thoughts on what was happening over you know, over a 0:23:56.960 --> 0:24:00.159