1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Body dys but Joseph's gotten more. You know, most people 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: don't think about chewing. I'm one of those people that does. 3 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: As I was growing up. I've got a tooth that's 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: actually recessed that sits back. It's actually the left upper 5 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: of incisor. And the reason it bothers me that I 6 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: do think about chewing many times is that the tooth 7 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: is so far set back that I have lacerated my 8 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: tongue a couple of times. So, you know, you kind 9 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: of have every now and then you'll kind of have 10 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: this hyper awareness, you know, except when it comes to 11 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: my wife's cherry cobbler, I don't think about it too much. Then. 12 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: The whole mechanism of digestion is something that most of 13 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: us never consider. But for those of you that don't 14 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: know digestion actually begins in the mouth, you say, well, 15 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: more than that's kind of obvious. Yeah, it kind of is. 16 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: But I'm talking about at a molecular level, because there 17 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: is a substance contained in the mouth that is a 18 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: component of saliva that is called amlas, and it's at 19 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: that moment in tom where we ingest food and that 20 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: breakdown begins to occur, particularly as it applies to carbohydrates. 21 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: But you know what else, anytime a bit of saliva 22 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: is left behind there in rest amalas and amlas is distinctive. 23 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: It's distinctive and can be tied back to an individual. 24 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: The case we're going to talk about today, or should 25 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: I say cases, because there are four deaths involved in 26 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: this episode, amilies comes into play because I got to 27 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: tell you something. If it weren't for the anales, we 28 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: might not have answers to brutally murdered and set on 29 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: fire a family of four. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 30 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: this is Body Packs. Dave. You and I have broken 31 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: bread together quite a few times, and I think probably 32 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: our shameless plug here. I think we've been to Dad's 33 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 1: barbecue a couple of times, which is one of our 34 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: favorite places to go. We can kind of sit around 35 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: and hang out and laugh and do those things that 36 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: we do. Not that we don't already do those things 37 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: when we're taping body bags. But you know, most people 38 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: don't think about eating and the process of digestion, now 39 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: do they. You just go and you eat, and it's 40 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: just the nature of what we do as humans. But 41 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 1: yet we leave bits and traces behind even with our saliva. 42 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: And in today's cases, as I mentioned, there are four. 43 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: This might be one of the more horrific cases we've 44 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: covered in recent memory, and it involves a grown woman 45 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: and three children that were found all gathered together in 46 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: a home having been set on fire. And you know, 47 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: we came across this case or cases, and I didn't 48 00:03:57,800 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: know if I could truly take in the scope of 49 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: what I was reading here. 50 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: I was shocked by the entire story because we actually 51 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: have blood relatives here too. We have Sarah Bermudez, thirty 52 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: eight years old and her three children, Madison, James, and Michael, 53 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 2: their ages eight, six, and two. And Dad is not home. 54 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: He's actually out on the West Coast for work. In 55 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 2: the middle of the night, somebody, somebody in the middle 56 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 2: of the night breaks into the home and murders the 57 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 2: entire family. Sarah the mom, Madison the daughter take a 58 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: particularly harsh beating and death. They were actually stabbed violently 59 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 2: in their private areas. And that's where the amalays as 60 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 2: you men comes in. I didn't even know how to 61 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 2: pronounce that word when I saw it in the report, Joe, 62 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 2: but my first thought was how does this play into 63 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 2: identifying a possible suspect because these people were found but 64 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 2: not in what would even be called a pristine state 65 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 2: in terms of the bodies, because after they were stabbed, 66 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 2: after they were murdered in the master bedroom, which by 67 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 2: the way, very quickly, why would a mom and three 68 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 2: children all be in one bedroom in sleeping And that's 69 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 2: why because dad was away and a lot of people 70 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 2: do this, I know we did in my family. You know, 71 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 2: when I was away, Mom would have the kids if 72 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 2: they'd have a tent kind of a camp out in 73 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: the master bedroom, I mean, right, And that's what they 74 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 2: were doing. 75 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: They were not think Yeah, lots of times I think it, Uh, 76 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: when mom's alone and she's in the house, she wants 77 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: the comfort of having her kids around her. You know, 78 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: DA's not there. Uh, you know kind of you know, 79 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: protecting the fort if you will. And isn't it you know, 80 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: rifle irony here here we have them, you know. In 81 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: One of the other things I kind of thought about 82 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: in this case is were they actually all reposed in 83 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: this area in a natural state, or had their the 84 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: remains been lined up and posed. 85 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 2: I'm wondering That's actually why I was going to ask 86 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 2: you because I could actually understand why they were all 87 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: in the room. Joe. Yeah, but this is what the 88 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 2: not the ending of the story, but after they were murdered, 89 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: after they were stabbed to death, and after thirty eight 90 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 2: year old mother and eight year old daughter are actually 91 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 2: violated with a knife in their private areas, that the 92 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 2: killer then lit them all on fire. Actually poured and 93 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: they think it was diesel, but poured some type of 94 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 2: fuel and lit them on fire. Now, the fire was 95 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 2: isolated to just the master bedroom. It did not go 96 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 2: through the entire house. But Joe, it was all over 97 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,799 Speaker 2: the victims here. They were burned. The room was burned, 98 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 2: and that also comes into play in this investigation. So 99 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: as we pull back the sheet on this case, you've 100 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 2: got four victims that have been stabbed to death. The girls, 101 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 2: the females have been killed differently or to a greater 102 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 2: degree than the two males. 103 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, they've been attacked differently. 104 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they've all been lit on fire. How 105 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 2: do you solve that one, Joe? 106 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: It's a nightmare. Firecases always are. But you know, just 107 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: like so many other things in life, and particularly in 108 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: the world of chemistry, when you begin to think about 109 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: something like an accelerant that's being used. If this was 110 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: in fact diesel, and it sounds like it was. It's 111 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: the nature and the composition of diesel is so divergent 112 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: from what you think about standard gasoline or kerosene. Even 113 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: to a certain degree. Diesel is a very first off, 114 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to light. I don't know if you 115 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: knew that. You know if you have if you have 116 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:27,559 Speaker 1: a gasoline, a dab of gasoline here, and a dab 117 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: of diesel, if you just merely strike a match over 118 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 1: an open container of gasoline, first off, it's going to 119 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: flash over, yeah, because those those fumes are igniting. But 120 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: if you take a match, the same type of match, 121 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: same type of container, and you strike it and please 122 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: please no one try this at Honting now, okay, just 123 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: trust trust our experience. Here, you strike the match with diesel, 124 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: did you know that you you can keep your hand adjacent. 125 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: You can still hold onto that match and hold it 126 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: right over the top, just hovering over that collection of diesel, 127 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: and it will not ignite. It has to rise to 128 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: a certain temperature before ignition actually starts with it. So 129 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: it's very slow burning. That's why people talk about Let 130 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: me ask you this question, because I haven't. I think 131 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: my wife Kim has early many years ago, I've never 132 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: owned a diesel vehicle. Now, I have lusted after a 133 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: few of these big trucks every now and then because 134 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: they're really cool looking and very powerful, and diesel does, 135 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,839 Speaker 1: in fact get better gas milage, and it's more expensive. 136 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: You see the difference when you go fill up between 137 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: I look at people and I think, how in the 138 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: world can you afford to fill this beast up that 139 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: you're adjacent to me in, you know, at gas station 140 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: because it is so freaking expensive. 141 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 2: Two quick things I had. There was a sales manager 142 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: at one of the radio stations I worked for in 143 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 2: eastern North Carolina back many years ago. He had a 144 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 2: Mercedes four fifty SL convertible that was diesel, right, And 145 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about diesel until I was in 146 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 2: the car with him for a morning meeting and he 147 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 2: actually had to hit a button first to heat the gas. 148 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 2: He heat the diesel before the car could be started. 149 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 2: I'm like, you have to heat it before you can 150 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 2: start the car. And then, yeah, there. 151 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: Are no diesel vehicles in horror movies. 152 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 2: No, none, and the other part of it was if 153 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 2: you remember back in the mid seventies when we had 154 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 2: the first oil oil thing in the US, you know, 155 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 2: went through the we're paying fifty cents a gallon then, 156 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 2: and there were lines stretching for miles to hoping to 157 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 2: get a couple of gallons. And diesel prices were about 158 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 2: half of what gas costs then, and all as soon 159 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 2: when they started using d diesel engines in regular cars 160 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 2: for the rest of us, well, and behold, diesel prices 161 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 2: went up. Diesel is the fuel that is not nearly 162 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 2: as good as the gas we burn in our car, 163 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 2: but it has to be heated to burn. And so 164 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 2: they were able to turn they being the companies that 165 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 2: actually control such things, to take this fuel that used 166 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 2: to be half the price of gas we put in 167 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 2: our car now and for the last forty years, costs more. 168 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have to think about this relative to 169 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: first off, when you begin to think about someone that 170 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: would use a flammable and it is flammable, don't get 171 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:47,719 Speaker 1: me wrong, it's just the level of flammability is it 172 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: differs greatly than say, for instance, gasoline. Who first off, 173 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: who has access to putting their hands on diesel because 174 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: it's distinctive. Most people, when you think about it, they're 175 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: going to have access to gasoline or it's going to 176 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: be their first point along the way, you know, because 177 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: we use gasoline for so many things just around the house. 178 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: If you've you know, if you've got a lawnmower, or 179 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 1: if you've got like some kind of blower or even 180 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: a weed whacker, you have to blend a gas with 181 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: with oil, you know, do a mix, but most of 182 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: the time you're just using regular gasoline. Who who purchases 183 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: a diesel? Was it somebody that operates heavy equipment for 184 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: instance that might burn it in and for instance a 185 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: bulldozer or front end loader or something like or do 186 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: they own a diesel vehicle like a pickup truck or 187 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: a sedan? I think Kim's Kim's. I think her car 188 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: was actually a four door Mercedes and it was used. 189 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: But she, you know, she'd always talk about how in 190 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: order to get up a hill, you know, she'd have 191 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: to turn off the air conditioner, you know, the summertime. 192 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 1: But and they do get better gas mileage. Okay that 193 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: the life on these things is is UH is more 194 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: and more so as UH relative to fuel consumption. But 195 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: who has the wherewithal? And and here's another thing about 196 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: this case, Dave, going back to the salivary anlase, I would, 197 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: and I think you might agree with me on this, 198 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: and certainly I'm friends with too. When things are burned, 199 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: things are burned at a crime scene. The intention of 200 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: burning something is to destroy that object, that item, that evidence, 201 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 1: maybe even that person, but to not understand the utility 202 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: of it and understand the functionality of it. It gives 203 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: us pause as investigators to wonder, does your mind work? 204 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: One of the more disturbing elements to this case, not 205 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: that we're really loaded with disturbing aspects. Salivery amales was 206 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: detected on both the bodies of the mother and the daughter. 207 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: And just a quick reminder here, the daughter was eight, Dave, 208 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: and her mother, Sarah Madison was eight and mother Sarah 209 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: was thirty eight. Salivary amilies was actually detected in the 210 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: private area as well. And that means that in order 211 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: to to achieve that, unless you have someone who is 212 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: spitting from you know, from a distance, onto these specific areas, 213 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: that means you've got oral contact going on and you can, 214 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: you know, take that how you wish it does go 215 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: to this idea of a sexual assault. But I think 216 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: and what's very interesting about this, Dave, and you had 217 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: pointed this out to me, and I'd love to kind 218 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: of hold forth on this a little bit. There's one 219 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: one subject that showed up at the scene, that is 220 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: a public official who was noted to have been spitting 221 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: while they were there. And I think that as this case, 222 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: you know, evolved, the defense found out about this in 223 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: this particular case and and made quite a bit of hayover, 224 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: didn't they. 225 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 2: They did because there was out a scene and you've 226 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: pointed this out on a couple of different occasions show 227 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 2: of locking down a scene and making sure that people 228 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: that are going into the scene have a reason to 229 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 2: be there and be you limit it, you know, to 230 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 2: not mess with the crime scene. And so there was 231 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 2: an officer was stationed at the front door to be 232 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 2: that guard. And while he was there, because he had 233 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 2: been inside of the master bedroom where this took place, 234 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 2: and there was soot and the fire burned itself out, 235 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 2: but what was left behind was just if you can 236 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 2: imagine what that had to have been like in the air, 237 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 2: with particles and all these other things in the air 238 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 2: and it got in his mouth, and he was standing 239 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 2: at the front door as people were coming in and 240 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 2: not really thinking it's just a natural reaction. I got 241 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 2: garbage in my mouth, I'm spitting it out, which is 242 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 2: exactly what he was doing. And this became a real 243 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: issue because he he now is introducing something onto the 244 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 2: ground outside. Granted this is outside of the crime scene, 245 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 2: it's on the ground, but yet it is still a 246 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 2: big issue. And they were like, why would you do that? 247 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 2: What were you thinking? And he said, look, you know, 248 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 2: he described the area as a horror scene already, and 249 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 2: he actually said he was spitting particles that were floating 250 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: in the air. And when he was challenged on why 251 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 2: would you do this while you're standing guarded the door, 252 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 2: and he actually said human air and a lack of experience. Right, basically, 253 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking about it. I just did what normal 254 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 2: people would do. Granted, it's the wrong thing to do 255 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 2: at a crime scene, it's the wrong thing to do 256 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 2: in that situation. But human air and a lack of experience. 257 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing. You know, Yes, the bodies are 258 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 1: inside of the home, but guess what the home is 259 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 1: inside of a temporary barrier that is created by tape. 260 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: The police, you know, when we go out to a 261 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: scene as forensic personnel emy detectives, when a young officer 262 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: creates this artificial boundary, if you will, with crim scene tape. 263 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: We think about crom scene tape is it's kind of 264 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: benign thing, but it's very distinctive because you're you're setting 265 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: up a boundary where you're saying to the public that 266 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: side of the tape is yours, this side of the 267 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: tape is ours, and you're declaring the inside of that 268 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: tape as off limits to everybody else. So it has 269 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: to be treated as such. Look, I got to give 270 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: this guy the benefit of the doubt to a certain 271 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 1: degree here. He should have known better, obviously, But I 272 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: have been on scenes before, and when you once the 273 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: fire is doused and is out, it's still smolders, all right, 274 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: and you've got all this crap floating in the air. 275 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: We're not out there wearing respirators, you know, like a 276 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 1: firefighter is, you know, with the all encumassing face shield 277 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: and you're breathing pure oxygen or you know, a certain 278 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 1: percentage of it. Your airway becomes clogged. Many times you 279 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: sense it in. Here's something interesting. As matter of fact, 280 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: it's and you can identify with this if you've ever 281 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: been to a bonfire. You might show it back home 282 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: and you say, God, leave it, I smell like smoke. Okay, 283 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: well right you are. You would smell like smoke because 284 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: it's going to leach on to you all that debris 285 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: that's being kicked up and that particulate matter that's been 286 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: given off within that environment. You think about the interior 287 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: of a house. Did you know that like in a 288 00:19:54,200 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: carpeted area, when fire touches like a carpeted area, that 289 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: sort of thing, you start a chemical reaction that produces 290 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: all kinds of noxious fumes. It's not just merely smoke. 291 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: You can you can actually when you do do toxicology 292 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: on people that have been in fires. First off, you're 293 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: going to find most of the time you're going to 294 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: find a very distinctive level of carbon monoxide. But in 295 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: addition to that, you're going to find elements in the 296 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: air like arsenic that'll be contained in there that are 297 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: essentially vaporized, and it's because of component materials that are 298 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: breaking down. And this is a chemical you know, when 299 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: you see a fire if fire is kind of defined 300 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: as an uninhibited chemical chain reaction, you have to have 301 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: these multiple things that are in place, heat source, fuel source, 302 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: ignition source, all these things, and it has to it's 303 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: kind of a cycle that runs through and so it's 304 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: it's it's burning everything up, but it's creating these elements 305 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: in the air. And when these elements are created, you're 306 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: going to breathe them in. So this young police officer 307 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: that is, you know, standing guard outside of the home, 308 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: he's going to be experiencing this, particularly if he's already 309 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: gone in, if he's not used to it. How much 310 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: more so, you know, for an old you know, an 311 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: old guy like me that's been out on a bunch 312 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: of fire scenes, I expect that I'm going to smell 313 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: the stuff. I expect that that I'm going to be 314 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: exposed to it. Am I going to hack and spit 315 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: and do all that sort of thing? Well, if my 316 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: airway is blocked, I very well might. But you have 317 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 1: to use good judgment, particularly within the parameters of an 318 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: established boundary for a crime scene. 319 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 2: Dave. And when I was seeing this show, my first 320 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 2: thought was what you have said on this show about 321 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 2: protecting the crime scene it really was, And I thought, 322 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 2: if I know that at and how much more should 323 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 2: an officer of the law know something like this. I 324 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 2: understand chalking it up. Hey, you made a mistake, but 325 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 2: this is a big mistake because you're talking about in 326 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 2: this day and age where every bit of anything from 327 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 2: our bodies we got touched DNA cases. Now, I mean, 328 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 2: this is something that goes beyond what we can even imagine. 329 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 2: And in this particular case, you started off at the 330 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 2: very beginning talking about a part of DNA, a part 331 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,959 Speaker 2: of our fluid, a part of something that I'd never 332 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 2: even heard of until today. 333 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and so yeah, and it's a distinct component 334 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: within saliva. Here's the really fascinating thing about this, though, 335 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: is that the perpetrator in this case attempted to use 336 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: a heat source in order to destroy evidence and did 337 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: such a poor job with the selection of the accelerant 338 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: was not sufficient to the task, right, Because you think 339 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: you would think that if there was evidence of a 340 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: sexual assault, which by the bye there was, that you 341 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: would have perhaps thought this out more clearly as to 342 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: eradication of any kind of evidence. And there is an 343 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: indication here that this fire did not burn over a 344 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: sustained period to a sufficient level to destroy all of this, 345 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,919 Speaker 1: particularly when you can still appreciate the fact that the 346 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: bodies are posed and arranged in a particular manner. They 347 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 1: are their legs Jesus, I hate to say this, but 348 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: their legs are spread apart. 349 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:51,959 Speaker 2: It's just the girls though. It's not the boys. 350 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: It's not the boys. It's just the girls. And I've 351 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: had a couple of other cases like this one that 352 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: we're going to cover, I'm sure in a few months 353 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 1: that occurred back in a suburb of Atlanta, And not 354 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: to go down a rabbit hole, but uh, we had 355 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: female members of a very large family and all all 356 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 1: of the female members in the family were brutally brutally 357 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: beaten to death and cut. There were males that were 358 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: equally brutalized, but they both survived, one with a permanent 359 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: brain injury. And this attack was focused on on these 360 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: two females. And you get you start going down this road. 361 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 1: You know that, you know, my friend Karen Stark, a 362 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: forensic psychologist, you know, would go down and you can 363 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: read a lot into this when you begin to think about, well, 364 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: why would you focus on the females, and it wasn't 365 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: just it wasn't just merely burning the females. It was 366 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: the sexual assault of these of these two well, this 367 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: young girl and her mother. It's also distabbing and cutting, 368 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: where you have the genitalia that are assaulted with a 369 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:27,719 Speaker 1: sharp force weapon, where there's a disfigurement that's going on, 370 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: and it's it's primarily below the waist, you know, when 371 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: you think about that, that's that's very specific. 372 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 2: Dave. I looked at this case from the very beginning 373 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 2: as odd because we're dealing with a relative being accused 374 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 2: of this murder, the murder of a family wild dad's away. 375 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 2: It just seemed like there's something more at play and mentioning. 376 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 2: At first, I thought, you've got a chronically broke drug 377 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 2: user who knows that he has family members where the 378 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 2: man is not home, where they probably have money or 379 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 2: he can get money from them, And that's what I 380 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 2: was thinking at first. But then when we found out 381 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 2: that there was more to the murders than just killing 382 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 2: everybody and lighting the place on fire to cover your tracks, 383 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 2: and that the attack was sexual in nature on the females, 384 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 2: that changed everything from the way I looked at it. 385 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 2: Joe and It brought about more questions I had for 386 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 2: you about motive, because motive, I know, they don't have 387 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 2: to prove motive to prove anything, but from our standpoint 388 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 2: looking at a case, you kind of have to know why, 389 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 2: or maybe don't have to feel like I ought to 390 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 2: know why something took place. Why did this suspect target 391 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 2: these victims. And what I thought was the beginning of 392 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 2: the case, killing people because he knew they might have 393 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,479 Speaker 2: money for drugs, ends up being something totally different. I mean, 394 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 2: this is an actual targeted attack of a sexual nature 395 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 2: on the girls. And it looks like the boys were 396 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 2: just kind of killed because they were witnesses. 397 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, they just happened to be there. And you know, 398 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: I think all of us hate to use the term 399 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: I know I do, because it leaves a bad taste 400 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: in the back of my mouth of collateral damage, because 401 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: it's the term collateral damage is dismissive of the value 402 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: that each individual human has, including these these you know, 403 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: these these young boys that were all and they're young, Dave, 404 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: I mean, they're very young. What would be the purpose 405 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 1: of doing this to totally eradicate but on even if 406 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: it could not get more chilling I think that it's 407 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: very important to understand that the so called sexual assault 408 00:27:54,240 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: that took place was not perpetrated with the male sexual organ, 409 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: but the sexual assault so called was perpetrated, according to 410 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 1: the medical examiner, with a knife. So there's certain things 411 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 1: that we look for at crime scene stay with sharp 412 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: force injuries. Uh, first off, they're very bloody affairs most 413 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: of the time. Yeah, I'd say that most of the 414 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: time they are. And it's almost and when you get 415 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: more than uh one victim, obviously, uh percentage wise, that's 416 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: going to increase the volume of blood that you have there. Uh, 417 00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: it's not It's not even like a gunshot one day, 418 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: because every time the act of stabbing occurs, you're puncturing 419 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: another defect into a body. And it is rare that 420 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: you go out on it on a sharp forced injury 421 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: death involving stabbings as opposed to you know, like an 422 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: insized one, which is a cut. Do you just have 423 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: one insult to the body, It's going to be multiple 424 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: And Dave, something that is quite striking about this is that, actually, 425 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: Lord have mercy. Sarah, thirty eight year old mother Dave. 426 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: She had over forty stab ones. Forty just let that 427 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: number sink in for a moment. 428 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 2: That's stab in slice, right, that's that is what you 429 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 2: mentioned is insized is a slice? 430 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, so inside if you here's a good way to 431 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: remember it. And I love you using this descriptor. Our 432 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: teeth have very specific names. So your two primary teeth, 433 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: well not primary primary is actually when it comes to 434 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: dentistry as something that's alluded to relative to children. But 435 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: the central incisors, okay, well they're incisors. To incize means 436 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: to cut, and that's the purpose. If you think about 437 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: like bodying a sandwich. Yeah, if you think about bodying 438 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: a sandwich, you're incizing the sandwich with your incisors and 439 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: then you rip. Well, an incised injury with a knife 440 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: or a machete or hey, even an axe. That means 441 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: that it's a cut or slice as opposed to a stab, 442 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: which many times you're not using the full length of 443 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: the knife to enter the body, but you're puncturing the body, 444 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: so it's a thrust and you can you can actually 445 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: stab people obviously with things other hand a knife, You 446 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: can use a pencil if you've got one, or a 447 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: pin or a spike or an ice pick an ice pick. Yeah, 448 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: the old guys used to carry ice picks in their 449 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: shoes for years and years. I think, bad, bad, Lee 450 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: Roy Brown. I know that was a razor. That was 451 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: a razor, that'd be an insize, but old guys, old 452 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: guys that ran the streets, they'd carry ice picks with 453 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: them many times. And those are in fact staves, but 454 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: they can also be interpreted as punctures as well. It's 455 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: a bit different. But yeah, so for what we're understanding, 456 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: you've got these multiple sharp force injuries, Dave, this is 457 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: a lot of work, this is a lot of anger, 458 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: and you have these insults that are occurring to all 459 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: of these bodies. But it appears that Sarah, the mama, 460 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: she took the brunt. 461 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 2: Of this well, and you point out that she had 462 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 2: forty wounds, some defensive. But when they were investigating this, 463 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 2: and this is kind of where there comes into play, 464 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 2: there was something I wanted to ask you about because 465 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 2: they mentioned, they being law enforcement, that the fire did 466 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 2: not burn through and it actually burned itself out. But 467 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 2: they had the state forensic expert, her name is Kelly King, 468 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 2: and she said that the fire again they think it 469 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 2: was diesel fuel was what was used, and that as 470 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 2: they were going through this scene, they found blood stains 471 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 2: on the walls, they found blood stains on the carpet, 472 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 2: and they found blood stains on a lamp and some 473 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 2: other items. And they found this even though there was 474 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: fire going on, And that to me was something my 475 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 2: brain could not quite wrap itself around that they were 476 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 2: able to pull this out after a fire. 477 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, that goes to the ineffectiveness of the accelerant that's 478 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: being used in the amount of heat that was generated. 479 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: Remember what I said earlier on Dave. You can literally 480 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: take a match, strike it and hold it in, you know, 481 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: like a saucer. If you just think of a saucer, 482 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: that might be I don't know, less than a curve 483 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: of an inch in depth of diesel that's been poured 484 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: in there. Even with that, the heat that's being generated 485 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: by the match is not sufficient to raise the temperature 486 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: that is required in order to ignite that diesel. Okay, 487 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: so it has to be it's a long process in 488 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: order to actually ignite diesel's it's very impractical if you're 489 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: trying to start a fire with it. Even if you 490 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,719 Speaker 1: if you think about lighter fluid like charcoal, lighter fluid, 491 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: that's more. That's even that's it's not as unstable as gas, 492 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: but it's still unstable. It's certainly more unstable than diesel, 493 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: so its ignition point is much lower. With diesel it's 494 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: much higher. So what has to happen? You know, That's 495 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: why we talk about accelerants. An accelerant is that component 496 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: that is placed on an item in order to initiate 497 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: a fire. It's not there to sustain the fire. So 498 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: what does that mean if you're just looking at it 499 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 1: from a chemistry standpoint? Well, whatever, you're dumping it on 500 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: a human body, which don't They don't burn very well. 501 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: They're not a good fuel source because fuel source and 502 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: accelerant are two different things. The accelerant initiates the fire 503 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: once it's been ignited, and you want it to burn 504 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: hot enough so that let's say, for instance, you throw it. 505 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: Let's say you've got synthetic drapes that are hanging, you know, 506 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: over a window, okay, and you just choose the blend 507 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: polyester I don't know, you choose it. Maybe it's a 508 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: wool polyester blend or whatever the curtains are made out of. 509 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 1: You doubt that with gasoline, and you set you better, 510 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: stand back, you strike a match, you throw it at it. 511 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: That thing's going to go up like a tinder box. 512 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: And it's because the heat, the heat required is much lower, 513 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: and it will, it will burn up. It will. It 514 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: will cause the temperature in the curtains or the drapes 515 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: to rise, so that the fire is self sustaining. At 516 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 1: that point you no longer need the accelerant, and the 517 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,720 Speaker 1: accelerant will burn off this certain degree. Diesel is different. 518 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: It takes a lot just to get it going and 519 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 1: then the item. Then you're reliant on the fuel source, 520 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: which would be the drapes of the curtains, in order 521 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 1: to sustain that. So the fact that they found these 522 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: blood patterns out there is not necessarily surprising if they're 523 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,720 Speaker 1: looking at diesel, because it's not going to be enough, 524 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: you know, if they you know, one comment is that 525 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: they found these blood stains on a wall. Well, if 526 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: they are sheet rock walls, which are made out of gypsum, 527 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: it's not a good fuel source. It's just not. It's 528 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,240 Speaker 1: better than human flesh, but it's not a good fuel source. 529 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: So the fact that the fire didn't reach up there 530 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: to destroy it. The lamp shade is kind of interesting though. 531 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: You would think that a lamp shade would just you know, 532 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: catch fire and everything, but they found blood deposition on 533 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,320 Speaker 1: the lamp shade as well. There's a lot of violence 534 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: that's going on here, so you've got this deposition. I'm 535 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,439 Speaker 1: sure it's very dynamic with this kind of cast off 536 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: patterns because every time that knife is essentially, you know, 537 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: just dug into these people's bodies, it's withdrawn, it's soaking wet, 538 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: the surface is soaking wet, and as it's kind of 539 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: thrown back in order to generate the power that it 540 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: takes to thrust it forward again, that blood is traveling 541 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: through the air and it's going to grab, is going 542 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: to take charge, and it's going to fall and deposit 543 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 1: itself in these very specific patterns. So it's fascinating. In 544 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: a house fire like this, I think that they would 545 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 1: actually find blood pattern that they could analyze. The trick 546 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: is whose blood is it? Are you able to type 547 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: the blood? Well? Percentages would indicate Because Sarah was so 548 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: very traumatized, you would think that the majority of it would 549 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 1: be hers. If you're using the same instrument, much like 550 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: I have talked about in the Idaho case. Now keep 551 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,439 Speaker 1: that in mind. You have commingling of blood perhaps where 552 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: you're using the same knife and you're moving about from 553 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: victim to victims, So you can have this kind of 554 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,839 Speaker 1: commingling of all of these different blood sources that are 555 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 1: very going to be very distinctive from a DNA standpoint. 556 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,479 Speaker 1: It's hard to know. Sequencing though, very very difficult. But Dave, 557 00:37:54,680 --> 00:38:00,879 Speaker 1: my understanding is is that the me found evidence Lord 558 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: that a lot of these wounds, many of these wounds 559 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: were inflicted upon her while she was still alive. 560 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,720 Speaker 2: I was looking this over and saw that and thought, Okay, 561 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,879 Speaker 2: you have children that are eight, six and two. Yeah, 562 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,879 Speaker 2: and you have moms thirty eight. Well, was this individual 563 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 2: accused of this murder of murdering them? Did he kill 564 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 2: the children first and then fought mom she you know, 565 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 2: or based on the fact they're all in that one bedroom, 566 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:45,800 Speaker 2: did he attack the mother and keep the children somehow 567 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 2: in the room while did they watch their mother die 568 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 2: is kind of what I'm after, and then he killed them? 569 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 2: Or I'm trying to figure out when you mentioned sequencing, 570 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 2: we don't know how it happened, but in the end 571 00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 2: we know that she had defensive wounds on her hands. 572 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 2: We know that she had sliced, insized and stab wounds, 573 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:12,399 Speaker 2: and we know in the end of things that they 574 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 2: were able. And this goes to what you started with 575 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 2: the amalayse in the testimony that there was body fluid 576 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 2: bound on and in the females. 577 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:34,359 Speaker 1: Right. I it's hard to know the sequence. I think 578 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: that probably we don't want to think about, you know 579 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: what this children bore witness to. Nobody in their right 580 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:49,720 Speaker 1: mind would want to, you know, try to envision that. However, 581 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: from the perspective of an investigator, you kind of have 582 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: to tease that out and try to understand it and 583 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,800 Speaker 1: try to understand what the status of the children were 584 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:05,239 Speaker 1: while it was going. I think we would hope that 585 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: they were deceased, you know, that they didn't in their 586 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: you know, in their little mind's eyes, that they didn't 587 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,400 Speaker 1: have to bear witness to this horror show. And it 588 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 1: has been described as a horror show at the scene 589 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,280 Speaker 1: of you know what Michael who was two and James 590 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 1: who was six, might have seen, and you know, certainly 591 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: Madison as well, remember she was eight. You have a 592 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 1: you have a mother. Yeah, and also sexually assaulted. You 593 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 1: have a mother, though, that's fighting back, and I think 594 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: that just about any mother in the world, she's trying 595 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,720 Speaker 1: to protect her children. She knows that there is evil 596 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: that has entered this home where her husband is not. 597 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: And we look at this and we think, well, who 598 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: in the world would want to perpetrate such a horrible 599 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: acton upon this family? Well, Dave, you said a lot 600 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,240 Speaker 1: when you said, you know, the individual would have probably 601 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: have had to have an awareness. Do you think he 602 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 1: would have tried to do this if Dad had been 603 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 1: at home? I think that the odds are very very 604 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 1: low on that end. And you know because dad, You 605 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: know that Dad is going to fight if he has 606 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 1: an awareness of this, and he might be able to 607 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,320 Speaker 1: match strength or strength with the perpetrator. In this case, 608 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: the dad's name, by the way, is Moses. And they 609 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,239 Speaker 1: may have had a chance to escape this home with 610 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: this wild person inside the home with them. But now 611 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,720 Speaker 1: you've got a mama in there that's trying to defend 612 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,319 Speaker 1: these three babies of eight, six and two. She's going 613 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:50,160 Speaker 1: to fight like a hellcat, and the fact that she's 614 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: got defensive wounds is not surprising. In this case. I 615 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,200 Speaker 1: think the most troubling thing, and to try to understand 616 00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: it is when what was the sequence of the assaults 617 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,720 Speaker 1: relative to the sexual assault? Is this some perverted monster 618 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,840 Speaker 1: that is also a necro file as well, in addition 619 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: to being a killer of children and women? Is that 620 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,439 Speaker 1: something else that we're going to pile on top here 621 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:24,399 Speaker 1: because I think that that possibility might exist. And here's 622 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: here's something else. I've got two indications of preparation here, 623 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 1: actually three. He's shown up armed. Okay, he's shown up 624 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 1: at a time when Dad is not there, when Moses 625 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,800 Speaker 1: is working out on the West coast. And in addition 626 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 1: to that, he's brought what he thinks at least is 627 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,439 Speaker 1: a proper accelerant to eradicate evidence, Dave, When you begin 628 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 1: to think about a perpetrator, thinking about eradicating evidence, this 629 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: is not some wild guy that's running down the street 630 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,320 Speaker 1: seeing pink eleph here. This is a guy that has purposed. 631 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: He's got what we refer to as menace ray, which 632 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: you know we'll have talked Nancy about that, but that's 633 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 1: a guilty mind. You've got the actus ray, which is 634 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: the guilty act, and then the menace ray, which is 635 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,799 Speaker 1: the guilty mind. He knows that he has to burn 636 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 1: this burn any kind of evidence that he may have 637 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:26,919 Speaker 1: left behind. But boy, he was really insufficient to the task. Dave. 638 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 2: This has been a shocking case and it has gone 639 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 2: on for a number of years. 640 00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:33,839 Speaker 1: Jo. 641 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 2: This actually occurred in twenty eighteen, and we're now taping 642 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,399 Speaker 2: this in twenty twenty four and the case is in 643 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 2: trial right now. 644 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: We'll have a decision in this case sooner than later. 645 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:50,879 Speaker 1: As you had stated, we're right in the middle of it. 646 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 1: And it's the nature of this and this case is 647 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,359 Speaker 1: not really one of the reasons I was interested in 648 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 1: discussing this case is well, first off, it's absolutely horrific, 649 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 1: but that horror goes to another indicator here. I cannot 650 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: understand why the thing has not gotten more coverage nationwide, 651 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 1: because you know, out of all the cases that we cover, 652 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 1: something like this, which by the way, is, like you said, 653 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,440 Speaker 1: up in the northeast, it's up in the Massachusetts area, 654 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,920 Speaker 1: you would think that certainly it would have hit the 655 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: news cycle and we would have heard about it all 656 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 1: over the place, but we really haven't. But you know, 657 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,360 Speaker 1: I think that it is important that we tell the tale, 658 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 1: particularly for Sarah, for James, for Michael, and for Madison, 659 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:54,360 Speaker 1: because no one, and I mean no one deserves to 660 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: go through this and end up in a horror show. 661 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybucks.