Speaker 1: Yeah, this episode came at me as a surprise and
Speaker 1: kind of a shocker. It wasn't planned, but after a
Speaker 1: string of emails and the flurry of phone calls the
Speaker 1: first week of December, I found myself on a plane
Speaker 1: headed to southeast Ohio. Our Secret Agent Man series ended
Speaker 1: a few weeks ago, and on that series we heard
Speaker 1: about the illustrious and wild career of undercover wildlife agent
Speaker 1: Artie Stewart. In Ohio, he told us about Operation Redbud,
Speaker 1: which in the nineteen nineties was the largest turkey poachings
Speaker 1: thing in US history. You've heard about that a ton,
Speaker 1: But I learned something about telling old stories. They don't
Speaker 1: always end where you think they do. Stories continue, and
Speaker 1: they always have more than one side. That's all I
Speaker 1: can say for now, But I really doubt you couldn't
Speaker 1: want to miss this one June a lot of good day.
Speaker 1: It was almost like unbelievable. My name is Clay Nukelem
Speaker 1: and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore
Speaker 1: things forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places,
Speaker 1: and where we'll tell the story of Americans who lived
Speaker 1: their lives close to the land. Presented by f HF Gear,
Speaker 1: American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed
Speaker 1: to be as rugged as the places we explore. So
Speaker 1: when did you buy this place. I'm gonna guess probably
Speaker 1: a year and a half, the two year ago maybe,
Speaker 1: and it was it was shut down. No, it was
Speaker 1: so operating when we bought it. And uh, but it
Speaker 1: didn't look not even on the scale it looks like today.
Speaker 1: It was just needed updated. Like I say, we owned
Speaker 1: the Piza shop next door. So actually my father in
Speaker 1: law said, you know what, Claude, and he said, on
Speaker 1: any day you said, you just buy that bowling alley too.
Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, you've lost your mind too,
Speaker 1: you know. So uh, well, the next thing, you know,
Speaker 1: we've come up for sale. So we bought it and uh.
Speaker 1: And then we bought it, we shut the doors and
Speaker 1: uh and did a big remodel. I mean, we got
Speaker 1: it all so down to the bear like bear concrete.
Speaker 1: That's that's what was left. This is my first time
Speaker 1: to Mcconnell'sville, Ohio. It's a cute town of about sevent people,
Speaker 1: built on the banks of the Mosqugam River in the
Speaker 1: southeast part of the state. Mcconnell'sville is also where most
Speaker 1: of the twenty six men and dieted in Operation Redbud live.
Speaker 1: Of if you've lived in small town America, there's certain
Speaker 1: people that stand out. They're woven into the fabric of
Speaker 1: the community and make it thrive. Their leaders well respected,
Speaker 1: their contributors and functional pillars of the community. We've just
Speaker 1: heard the voice of Claude Maxwell. There was ten lanes
Speaker 1: of bowling here, so we tore three out. So you know,
Speaker 1: as you see we got the dartboards. Uh pull table
Speaker 1: over there. You can't stay it from here. But then
Speaker 1: big kitchen. There's a restaurant here. Yes, it's very nice
Speaker 1: restaurant back here also, so back here there's two virtual
Speaker 1: golf bays, which will be I'm sure a big hit.
Speaker 1: So Mcconnell'sville is not a big town, so this is
Speaker 1: gonna be like a hub for for people to come
Speaker 1: to a like a real social I'm hoping it's gonna
Speaker 1: be a big fit for the Mcconellsville people. Um, and
Speaker 1: I know it's a lot of people excited about because
Speaker 1: you know, there's nothing really here for the kids to do.
Speaker 1: Claude is sixty years old, and wears fashionable dark frame glasses.
Speaker 1: He drives a late model Chevy Silverado pickup. The back
Speaker 1: seats are folded up and the floorboard is full of
Speaker 1: the walk tools and construction supplies. When I opened the
Speaker 1: passenger door, he scrambles to clear away work gloves and
Speaker 1: cabinet hardware still in the packaging. It's clear that Claude
Speaker 1: has worked hard for everything that he's got, and it's
Speaker 1: evident he and his family are these kind of standout people.
Speaker 1: The bowling Alley in the pizza place called Maxwell's Pizza
Speaker 1: are side by side overlooking the river. The pizza place
Speaker 1: has a rooftop dining area that's been voted as one
Speaker 1: of the top ten best rooftops in Ohio. Both of
Speaker 1: these businesses are being spearheaded by Claude's son cast a
Speaker 1: really sharp and kind fella in his early thirties. Cass
Speaker 1: was just four years old on Sunday, June nineteen. He
Speaker 1: thought there must have been an early morning party at
Speaker 1: their house when all the vehicles rushed into their driveway.
Speaker 1: Not to be outdone by her older brother, Claude's daughter
Speaker 1: Adrian started a cafe in downtown Mcconnellsville called the Bluebird Cafe,
Speaker 1: and I kid you not, they served me the best
Speaker 1: breakfast I've eaten in the last five years. The place
Speaker 1: is top notch. It's become overwhelmingly clear to me that
Speaker 1: these Maxwell's have something special. And I haven't even told
Speaker 1: you that Claude runs a sporting goods store called Maxwell's
Speaker 1: Hunting Supplies. So that we're in Mcconnellsville. Ah, he's introducing
Speaker 1: me to a man that we've met on the sidewalk. So, uh,
Speaker 1: this is the guy that is the podcast for Yeah,
Speaker 1: well you know the operation. Yeah, So we just got
Speaker 1: done here. Did you hear about that that we did
Speaker 1: a podcast on that. My boy was talking North Carolinas
Speaker 1: told me about always that right from that there, this
Speaker 1: just happened. Uh. Ron is literally the first person we've
Speaker 1: met on the street. As we walked towards Claude's hunting store.
Speaker 1: After a slightly awkward moment, I realized that I might
Speaker 1: not be the most popular man in Mcconnellsville. Not everybody
Speaker 1: was pumped about some outsider talking about Operation Redbud without
Speaker 1: hearing the full story. But I went ahead and asked
Speaker 1: Ron appointed question. Yeah, so, so who who do you
Speaker 1: know Claude Maxwell to be inside this community. He's a
Speaker 1: great this man, now, don't know. I mean what they've
Speaker 1: done in this community is outstanding. I mean with with
Speaker 1: the blue Bell and the bowling alley and the rough top,
Speaker 1: you know, pizza shop. I mean, it's just terriffic what
Speaker 1: he's done. And I'm proud of the whole family. They're
Speaker 1: all good workers. So I mean he's like a pillar
Speaker 1: in this community, is it? Would that be right? Well?
Speaker 1: I hate to say that he really is. The whole
Speaker 1: family needs to be commended for what they've done here.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah yeah, sorry to walk
Speaker 1: up to on the street and just shove a making
Speaker 1: your face. The Mcconnellsville tour continues. We're now in Maxwell's
Speaker 1: Hunting Supplies. So we're walking in Maxwell's Hunting and Fishing
Speaker 1: Supplies store. But I had the store is tidy and
Speaker 1: packed wall to wall and floor to ceiling with archery targets,
Speaker 1: deer blinds, and bottles of doe estras. Behind the counter
Speaker 1: is a wall full of guns of all kinds. The
Speaker 1: middle of the store has hunting clothing and a bow
Speaker 1: rack and in the back of the store you couldn't
Speaker 1: fit another jig or crank bait on the shelves. We
Speaker 1: sell Matthews um Hoyt an elite and then of course
Speaker 1: you know uh Raven Crossbows, several different crossbow companies. We
Speaker 1: handle big selection of fishing equipments. Yes, and uh we
Speaker 1: can walk on back do here, but yeah, give me
Speaker 1: the full tour. Man. What I'm about to tell you
Speaker 1: won't make sense unless you've listened to our Secret Agent
Speaker 1: Man series. We worked hard in the podcast to hide
Speaker 1: the identity of the man that we called Target number two.
Speaker 1: This was the guy that RTI Stewart became very close with,
Speaker 1: the guy rt so badly wanted to tell that he
Speaker 1: was an undercover agent because he liked him so much. Well,
Speaker 1: Claude Maxwell is Target number two of Operation Red Butt.
Speaker 1: If you recall, through the undercover work of Art and
Speaker 1: his partner, they brought charges against twenty six men, and
Speaker 1: these guys were convicted of over two hundred and seventy
Speaker 1: five wildlife violations. But when you do the math, Claude
Speaker 1: Maxwell received exactly twenty percent of those violations. He pleaded
Speaker 1: guilty to seventy four When I first heard about Artie
Speaker 1: Stewart and his undercover work, I was interested in highlighting
Speaker 1: the work done by the wildlife law enforcement of this country.
Speaker 1: The freedoms that we have as hunters carry a high
Speaker 1: price tag, and part of the cost is making sure
Speaker 1: that the law is followed. Artis openness gave us insight
Speaker 1: into a hidden layer of law enforcements seldom seen the
Speaker 1: world of undercover work. His stories were fascinating, and he
Speaker 1: was very good at what he did. However, what never
Speaker 1: occurred to me, what never crossed my mind, is how
Speaker 1: these stories intersected the lives of those that he chased.
Speaker 1: I never expected to talk to Target number two, to
Speaker 1: be honest with you, it was almost like he didn't exist.
Speaker 1: But oh he does, and he's not who I thought
Speaker 1: he would be. Here's Claude Maxwell. Well before this started,
Speaker 1: before I met the undercover I worked at a a
Speaker 1: manager drive through in a bar. I worked there for
Speaker 1: probably seventeen years. I met a lot of people. I
Speaker 1: met a lot of great people. That was basically how
Speaker 1: I met the undercover agent. Was where I worked at
Speaker 1: intentionally commend to meet me I had met the undercover guy.
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember exactly when it was and uh, well,
Speaker 1: automatically we uh we hit it off pretty good. Of course,
Speaker 1: I think he was probably hoping we get hit it
Speaker 1: off pretty good. But we started hanging out and uh
Speaker 1: started hunting from mayor, I guess. I mean, I don't know,
Speaker 1: but like you said, that's what that's what I've done
Speaker 1: for seventeen years. Claude was in his early thirties and
Speaker 1: nine he was married and had two children. He worked
Speaker 1: as a bartender, and it was here that he met
Speaker 1: Bob Thomas, or at least that's what the man said
Speaker 1: his name was. But why was he here to meet Claude?
Speaker 1: So the Ohio DNR would have had you in their crosshairs.
Speaker 1: So you were killing turkeys before season, some deer before
Speaker 1: in season. Yep, that's what was going on. I sure did.
Speaker 1: Um I tell you I was out hunting turkeys one
Speaker 1: morning before season, and uh, and I'd probably killed I
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe a couple of birds, I guess before
Speaker 1: season that year. And the guy I used to work
Speaker 1: for at this bar or his son was real good
Speaker 1: friends with the game wards and daughter at high school.
Speaker 1: He had come home and I've seen this boy every
Speaker 1: day he'd pulled me aside one day said hey, said, uh,
Speaker 1: just let you know that the game wards daughter, which
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna mention your name, had told me that
Speaker 1: my dad has got the radar on you. So I
Speaker 1: actually started getting nervous about that. I mean, it wasn't
Speaker 1: like I was out every day hunting, but you know
Speaker 1: there was days i'd go, you know, a few days
Speaker 1: in a row, generally a couple of weeks before season.
Speaker 1: Come in Turky, God, I want to be hunt him.
Speaker 1: So anyhow, one morning I was coming back and I've
Speaker 1: been turkey hunting. Actually didn't care a gun that morning
Speaker 1: because of what this boy had told me of off
Speaker 1: the game warden. Well, he'd definitely done had his eyes
Speaker 1: locked on me because we was coming on County Road three,
Speaker 1: and I looked at every vehicle that went by me.
Speaker 1: I mean, I just I still do today. I mean
Speaker 1: I just I guess it's just a habit of you know,
Speaker 1: way with people or whatever. Well, that morning, a particular morning,
Speaker 1: I had passed the game warden. There's two of them,
Speaker 1: and I knew the local game warden very well, and
Speaker 1: so I met him. He was in an undercover car
Speaker 1: or it maybe even a station way. But I remember saying,
Speaker 1: so they weren't in their truck. No, No, they were
Speaker 1: in a civilian car. That you recognize the guy. So
Speaker 1: when I passed him, of course I freaked out. I
Speaker 1: was like, wow, he is onto me. So I slowed down.
Speaker 1: I was actually going to work that morning, so I
Speaker 1: drove real slow all the way to town because I
Speaker 1: was positive that was him. And he knew when he
Speaker 1: seen me who I was. I was in camouflage, you know,
Speaker 1: he knew I was probably out turkey hunting. I was
Speaker 1: coming into Malta, which is right across the river. Here
Speaker 1: this vehicle I finally had caught up with me, and
Speaker 1: it was the vehicle that I've been waiting for. So
Speaker 1: you was going slow so he would follow you, or
Speaker 1: so he could catch up. Catch up. Yeah, so he
Speaker 1: catch up with me. So and he did catch up
Speaker 1: with me. So I think he was kind of surprised
Speaker 1: when he made the turn to come into Malta that
Speaker 1: he sees my vehicle. And at that time I drove
Speaker 1: a Chevy Tahoe hatchback, so he sees me. So he
Speaker 1: takes a left on side street, like I say, I
Speaker 1: have no weapon in my vehicle. So I take a
Speaker 1: left at the red light, and I wanted to catch
Speaker 1: up with him. But the reason he took a left
Speaker 1: because he's seen me, and he didn't make it look obvious.
Speaker 1: So we pulled up the side street together. He's coming
Speaker 1: one way, I'm coming the other way. So I pulled
Speaker 1: up to him. He rolls his wounded down and I
Speaker 1: asked him. I said, are you looking for me? And
Speaker 1: he said, now it's with you, just Outsidelphia. I was
Speaker 1: pretty sure you're looking for me, he said, Now I
Speaker 1: was out doing a turkey sort way. We're doing turkey
Speaker 1: every days. Well, a guy to pass your seat. He
Speaker 1: stared a hole through me. So anyhow, pulling away from
Speaker 1: the vehicle, I've seen him smacked this staring. Well, wow,
Speaker 1: he because he got busted. Yeah, he knew that. I
Speaker 1: knew that. You know, he's out there looking for me.
Speaker 1: He knew that. I knew that he was out there
Speaker 1: looking for me. Though the words Operation Redbud had never
Speaker 1: been uttered, the pounding of the steering wheel was its
Speaker 1: genesis moment. Perhaps, if Claude hadn't spoiled their initial plans
Speaker 1: by taking that left hand turn, maybe the local warden
Speaker 1: would have caught him and slowed him down, and he
Speaker 1: would have been an average turkey poacher and we'd never
Speaker 1: even know who he was. But the what might have
Speaker 1: been are long gone, like a cottonwood leaf in the
Speaker 1: current of the Moskegam River. Fate was set into place.
Speaker 1: You told me about meeting Bob Thomas Art Stewart, and
Speaker 1: you told me about how you probably could have You
Speaker 1: were tipped off pretty quick that he was an undercover agent.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that? Yes, Well, when I
Speaker 1: met Ort, and I can even remember the exact chair
Speaker 1: he said him when he came in the bar that
Speaker 1: day and he ordered the Miller light. That's how good
Speaker 1: my memory is. So we would, uh, just in conversation.
Speaker 1: We got to talking a little bit that day and
Speaker 1: he was dressed in camouflage, tipping off that he was
Speaker 1: a hunter. Yeah, sure, so he knew yeah, because he
Speaker 1: knew who I was was. I didn't know him. I mean,
Speaker 1: but you know, RT. Bob Thomas whatever. At that time.
Speaker 1: The first time we spoke, you were calling him Bob.
Speaker 1: I thought that was really interesting. Well that's what a
Speaker 1: long time so I just want the name is Bob.
Speaker 1: But anyhow, I enjoyed being around Bob just that one day,
Speaker 1: I had a pretty good field for me. I thought,
Speaker 1: pretty good Feller. Of course, I'm sure that looking back,
Speaker 1: I mean, of course Bob wanted to be my friend.
Speaker 1: He wanted to know me. I want to guess it's
Speaker 1: probably uh. A few days later arts in the store again.
Speaker 1: A good friend of mine, Kevin, had come in the bar.
Speaker 1: We had a side door on the side of the bar.
Speaker 1: A lot of people just come in that side door,
Speaker 1: which was the stage, and then you come down three
Speaker 1: steps and you you'd be in the bar. Well. Kevin
Speaker 1: had come in the door that I want to say
Speaker 1: as around one or two in the afternoon, and Bob
Speaker 1: or r T or whoever was sitting at the edge
Speaker 1: of the at the bar theyre closest to the stage.
Speaker 1: Kevin had called him RT. He said, hey, RT, you
Speaker 1: know you always named a couple of times, and Bob
Speaker 1: finally looks up at him and said, because I'm talking
Speaker 1: to Kevin. Bob said, you talking to me? And he said, yeah,
Speaker 1: ain't you RT store. He said, you must have me
Speaker 1: mixed up someone else. He said, well you look like
Speaker 1: the game ward and shocked her down. Uh. Hawking counting
Speaker 1: Bob said, oh, I ain't no game ward you and uh, well,
Speaker 1: the dry through bell rang usually when it just rang.
Speaker 1: One time, I knew it was somebody walking because they
Speaker 1: just stepped on the rubber hose to make the bell ring.
Speaker 1: Kevin had left, and I thought it was probably him
Speaker 1: back there, so well, so he buzzed it for you
Speaker 1: to come back there. That's right. Wow, so your buddy
Speaker 1: is like wanting a private meeting with Yes, Kevin always
Speaker 1: called me Max. One opened door and he said, hey Max,
Speaker 1: He said, do you know that guy out there to bar,
Speaker 1: I said, I just made a few days ago. He said,
Speaker 1: unless he's got a twin. His name is Artie Stewart
Speaker 1: and he's a game ward instructor in Hawking County. So
Speaker 1: he said, this is right at the very beginning of
Speaker 1: what became Operation Redbud. That's right, that's exactly right. So
Speaker 1: this guy tells you that's Artie Stewart. He's a game ward. Yes,
Speaker 1: So he said, I'd be careful who you hang out with.
Speaker 1: He said, I could be wrong. He said, it's been
Speaker 1: a while since I've seen it, but he said, by god,
Speaker 1: he said it looks like him, So i'd even uh,
Speaker 1: mentioned that to my wife and she said, you know,
Speaker 1: she was like, because she didn't like me going out
Speaker 1: spotlight and shooting deer. She was not for it. A
Speaker 1: matter of fact, she would yet ticked off if I went,
Speaker 1: so not always for it. It's all right, you know,
Speaker 1: I'll be fine. Anyhow, I went back to the bar
Speaker 1: and uh, I was talking to Bob and I said, yeah,
Speaker 1: I said, well, Kevin thinks she was a game warden.
Speaker 1: He said yeah, and then he went on a big
Speaker 1: spill about that he's a game warden. You know, he
Speaker 1: just yeah, so, uh, well, that afternoon, I think of
Speaker 1: that afternoon, Bob had showed me a a turkey in
Speaker 1: the back of his van, a turkey fan that he
Speaker 1: had had fanned out, and Utah was a fresh kill.
Speaker 1: He had his spurs are and he said he had
Speaker 1: just killed it. And I think he was trying to
Speaker 1: gain my trust a little bit. Okay, yeah, of course,
Speaker 1: you know back then I couldn't see past my nose
Speaker 1: because I'm like, what is the odds of a game
Speaker 1: warden here in a book like an undercover? I mean,
Speaker 1: that wasn't even a thing, was it. No? I mean,
Speaker 1: like I think you probably heard about things like that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I've never thought would ever happen to men.
Speaker 1: Of course, when he showed me that, I was like,
Speaker 1: I kind of trust him, but I just say, I
Speaker 1: don't think nabe Kevind is exact what he's talking about. Well,
Speaker 1: then right after that, Bob started wearing yellow lens glasses, sunglasses,
Speaker 1: and then he grew a full beard. Because when I
Speaker 1: first met r T, he was clean. They had a mustache,
Speaker 1: big mustache. After that he wrote a huge beard, so
Speaker 1: he knew he got busted from He's gonna have to
Speaker 1: change up a little bit. It's so interesting here in
Speaker 1: the different sides of the same story arts he told
Speaker 1: us about this one too. Claude wouldn't have known it,
Speaker 1: but RT was scrambling on the inside, but he was
Speaker 1: also learning, hence the new beard and sunglasses. In our
Speaker 1: Secret Agent Man podcast, r T told many of the
Speaker 1: ins and outs of living undercover and becoming close to Claude.
Speaker 1: They poached turkeys, spotlighted deer, and became the closest of friends.
Speaker 1: Here's a funny story. We shot a deer one night,
Speaker 1: Bob and down. I don't believe it was with us
Speaker 1: at night, but we shotted and we're down below my
Speaker 1: buddy Mike's house and world clo down the woods and cold,
Speaker 1: probably a six or seven inches snow one. I mean,
Speaker 1: we're clear down in the woods, just so wouldn't get caught.
Speaker 1: And pretty soon Bob and Don snuck up on us.
Speaker 1: Of course, he's all good friends, and you know, everybody
Speaker 1: knows everybody, and uh, he got up on snuck up
Speaker 1: on us and said game warden boys, and we was
Speaker 1: freaking out because I thought it was a game warden.
Speaker 1: Well it but but man, he told that story three times,
Speaker 1: and man he would laugh looking back. Claude says the
Speaker 1: signs were everywhere that his relationship with Bob Thomas was suspect. However,
Speaker 1: this type of undercover work was entirely new, and Claude's
Speaker 1: was like a deer in the headlights, especially when the
Speaker 1: relationship came crashing down. For Clawe, it was the surprise
Speaker 1: of his life, one that would change it forever. So
Speaker 1: our TI talked about how he said he was closer
Speaker 1: to you than probably he was anybody he ever worked,
Speaker 1: which was interesting. And part of what we talked about
Speaker 1: was what was it like to be turned in by
Speaker 1: somebody you really thought was your friend. Yeah, that was
Speaker 1: probably the worst thing that probably ever happened to me,
Speaker 1: to be honest with you. Um, you know, we hung
Speaker 1: out for a long time together, and I think basically
Speaker 1: about every day. I mean, there might have been a
Speaker 1: day or two we didn't hang out, but for the
Speaker 1: most part we ve together, me and him and Dawn
Speaker 1: a lot. So when that morning, seven o'clock at the morning,
Speaker 1: you know, they hit everybody at seven o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 1: all the guys that were involved in the in in
Speaker 1: in the sting. Yeah, well, I remember being in bed
Speaker 1: that morning and we've been up late night we had
Speaker 1: I guess my place was Party Central. W's where everybody
Speaker 1: come to when we just hang out and have a
Speaker 1: good time. But anyhow, that the morning that happened, I
Speaker 1: kept here on this pounding on my house. I thought
Speaker 1: it was dreaming, okay, you know, summertime. And my wife
Speaker 1: finally gets me up, said, you got to look outside. Gosh,
Speaker 1: you're in big trouble. That's the exactly what she told me.
Speaker 1: So I jumped up out of bed. Of course, I
Speaker 1: got long hair then, and a matter of fact, had
Speaker 1: orange shorts. One looked like I was getting ready to
Speaker 1: go Joel. So I looked outside and I've seen all
Speaker 1: these wildlife officers and and how many trucks were there? Wow?
Speaker 1: You know, honestly, I think there must have been achieved.
Speaker 1: My best recollection probably fifteen are fifteen vehicles pulled up
Speaker 1: to your house. Yeah, there's uh Crown Victories, and there's
Speaker 1: uh game warden trucks, a one towing Clumbus News Times Recorder,
Speaker 1: which is our local news. Oh wow, so they pulled
Speaker 1: up with a with a a tow truck to tow
Speaker 1: your vehicles. Yeah, the media was there. We're gonna film
Speaker 1: them pulling you out of your house? Yes, and they did. Yes.
Speaker 1: So you so you answer the door? Yeah, time I
Speaker 1: got my barons together. What in the world, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, what's going on? It? Did it even occur
Speaker 1: to you that this is because of killing turkeys the league? Nothing?
Speaker 1: I mean, you're just like, like I said, what's June six?
Speaker 1: I mean it's summertimes. They why is all these game
Speaker 1: boardings here? So I couldn't figure out exactly what was
Speaker 1: going on. And and they're yelling. I mean, these people
Speaker 1: are yelling open the door or we're busting the door
Speaker 1: in So I ran to the front door and opened
Speaker 1: the door, and when I did, they pulled me out
Speaker 1: the door. And I want to know if I hadn't
Speaker 1: loaded firearms in my house, and they read my rights,
Speaker 1: and uh, I still couldn't figure out they didn't tell me,
Speaker 1: you know, Bobb and Dawn or whatever. So I was
Speaker 1: it almost seemed like a dream really looking out there
Speaker 1: and seeing all these gameboard vehicles. And I think our
Speaker 1: local game warden he was probably a second guy through
Speaker 1: my front door, the guy you saw on the station way.
Speaker 1: I can follow on you, yes, yes, and yeah, And
Speaker 1: like you say, he still comes in my store this day.
Speaker 1: I mean that's I have no I have no better feelings,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. He's he's doing his job.
Speaker 1: I find Claude's ability to move beyond the past to
Speaker 1: be unusually developed, kind of like when you watch a
Speaker 1: fisherman skilled with a knife filet of fish. What they're
Speaker 1: doing is very difficult, but it looks easy. I'd say
Speaker 1: Claude's position is rare. Here's Claude with more. After they
Speaker 1: read my rights, we'll go back inside the house. And
Speaker 1: my phone's ringing off the hook. As you imagine. Well,
Speaker 1: back in the days, you know, you had to answer machines.
Speaker 1: So good buddy, my Mike, and we're still good buzz
Speaker 1: this day. He's probably my best friend. His wife calls me,
Speaker 1: the game wards just left there, left his house. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they get him. Yeah, but they didn't have much on him.
Speaker 1: I mean he didn't. He wasn't out sure with me
Speaker 1: per sae that every day, like why when I was
Speaker 1: going out. But but his wife was in panic mode.
Speaker 1: She said, Claude, if you're there, answer the phone. She said,
Speaker 1: the game wasn't just left my house, she said, and
Speaker 1: I think you're on the way to yours, and they
Speaker 1: would not let me. You're here in this message as
Speaker 1: there and everybody's right there, all the game right there
Speaker 1: and listen to everything. And so if he had the
Speaker 1: illegal deer meat or turkeys, and you better to get
Speaker 1: him out. And I was like, really, Jen, I said,
Speaker 1: can you shut up now? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: But yeah, of course she was just trying to do
Speaker 1: me a favor. If you remember, RTI told us this
Speaker 1: exact same thing from the law enforcement side. In the intro,
Speaker 1: I said that Claude's son, Cast was four years old nine.
Speaker 1: Here's the story. Claude loves to tell. And we're back
Speaker 1: in the bowling alley with cass they all come down
Speaker 1: on him, and so we're outside and I say it
Speaker 1: was June warm out and my son had said, look
Speaker 1: the one of wildlife officers and said, look at that
Speaker 1: crawl dad hole right there, and uh, game works and
Speaker 1: dies and I don't think that's a crawl dad hole.
Speaker 1: So he was there when the wildlife officers were searching
Speaker 1: your house and he was like three years old four
Speaker 1: So so Cassie, Yeah, he said there's a there's a
Speaker 1: crawl Dad in that hole there. Well said he, I don't.
Speaker 1: He said, I don't think he has a crawl that
Speaker 1: a whole bud and uh he said, oh yeah, here's
Speaker 1: it is. He determined he's gonna show him. So he
Speaker 1: went and got his mom's uh bucket, and he water
Speaker 1: flowers in and you know, took a spout off, but
Speaker 1: I was pulling water right into that hole. Took it
Speaker 1: fill to clear up. Nothing coming out of it yet.
Speaker 1: So he went back and fills it back up, poors
Speaker 1: her in there again. Waits there pretty seeing his great crown.
Speaker 1: He jumped up and down. So this is a technique
Speaker 1: you knew would work. Get the crawdads. Yeah, which the
Speaker 1: pond one too far? It was like, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: little ways actually, so you you remember when this happened,
Speaker 1: so you have memories of the law coming to your
Speaker 1: house to get your dads going on. I thought it
Speaker 1: was I thought it was a fun day. I don't know, yeah,
Speaker 1: not on. These people were here and we're having a
Speaker 1: good time. You let me teach you how to catch
Speaker 1: your crowdad and big guy come here, man. I didn't
Speaker 1: read game on Friends Friends. Yeah, now that's a good story.
Speaker 1: They didn't teach those game boardings about crawdads. And hey,
Speaker 1: not to digress, but Cass called it a crawdad and
Speaker 1: not a crayfish, which indicates to me that Ohio might
Speaker 1: actually be Southern Louisiana is exempt they call him crawfish
Speaker 1: down there. And another thing, Claude called it spotlighting, not
Speaker 1: jack lighting, because nobody from the South ever called spotlighting
Speaker 1: a deer jacklighting. Let's talk about something that matters, and
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what matters is wives. Wives usually have
Speaker 1: a strong intuition, especially when it comes to their husband's friends.
Speaker 1: If you want to talk about wit and instinct, a
Speaker 1: wife is often like a lightning rod for this kind
Speaker 1: of stuff, but oddly Misty has always really liked to
Speaker 1: print reeves. Anyway, here's Claude talking about how he still
Speaker 1: didn't really know why the law was at his house,
Speaker 1: and even then, I still I'm I'm racking my brain,
Speaker 1: is like, I don't know what's going on. I mean,
Speaker 1: no one's really told me anything. So I go outside
Speaker 1: and they're at my house for hours. At that time,
Speaker 1: I was remodeling my house. Uh, just doing a little remodelling.
Speaker 1: I mean I have a money I was just trying
Speaker 1: to make the place look a little nice. And what
Speaker 1: it was so well, my wife had come outside when
Speaker 1: I was sitting on uh I think had a bench
Speaker 1: out there in front of my poor chair. I was
Speaker 1: sitting on it. I was bummed, as you can imagine.
Speaker 1: And they have your handcuffed or so they knew you
Speaker 1: weren't gonna run off. No, I mean they had Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course, I don't what they had before because I
Speaker 1: didn't know. And they're searching your house. Oh yeah, they're
Speaker 1: tearing apart I mean every inch of her. So my
Speaker 1: wife's come out the front door and she whispered the
Speaker 1: air and she said, Bob and donn I bet you.
Speaker 1: And I looked at her like she was crazy, I said,
Speaker 1: in the ho she said, I bet it is. She said,
Speaker 1: you thought you guys were friends. She sniffed it out. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But you know, she never did even what was going on.
Speaker 1: She was always oh, because RT would call me quite
Speaker 1: a bit, and I think if he was really being
Speaker 1: honest for himself, he could tell you that that Bob
Speaker 1: would call me a lot to say you want to
Speaker 1: go out tonight, you know, and it would really take
Speaker 1: my wife off. She was like, you know, Claide, you're
Speaker 1: gonna get yourself in trouble. Wives. No, they just always know.
Speaker 1: So I guess when that all happened. When I finally
Speaker 1: did figure out, I think one of the officers he
Speaker 1: hand me all my charges, all these papers. I'm like, huh,
Speaker 1: then we're all mine, huh, because it was a bunch wit.
Speaker 1: What did it? How did it read? It? Just on
Speaker 1: the front of it, it was that um it was
Speaker 1: all written up from the court saying all these charges
Speaker 1: and I take pages and pages that man, it looked
Speaker 1: like a catalog, you know what I mean? And I said, uh.
Speaker 1: I looked at him. I said them's all mine. He said,
Speaker 1: them's all yours. And then the one officer asked me
Speaker 1: if I knew Bob Thomas. So when he said that,
Speaker 1: as I go, okay, that was my friend, I just
Speaker 1: got me right there. This was a tough moment for Claude.
Speaker 1: I don't know that I'll ever know, or at least
Speaker 1: I hope I never do what it feels like for
Speaker 1: someone you thought was your friend to actually not be.
Speaker 1: And what makes this so wildly interesting is that RT,
Speaker 1: even thirty years later, still has mixed feelings about it.
Speaker 1: And we know he can't blame Ourt. He was just
Speaker 1: doing his job. He was defending the law. I just
Speaker 1: think it's interesting to look at it from the other side.
Speaker 1: And this goes back to our original commentary on what
Speaker 1: a weird human experience and experiment that undercover work is,
Speaker 1: you know, And at that time when that happened, like say,
Speaker 1: I'm early authorities and I just felt like someone kicked
Speaker 1: me right in the teeth, I mean, kick the legs
Speaker 1: right out from under me. So here this guy that
Speaker 1: I thought out with my friend, that we did a
Speaker 1: lot together, and I had a lot of fun together
Speaker 1: and had a I mean, it's it's hard to say
Speaker 1: a real friendship. But you said to me earlier that
Speaker 1: you can't fake that kind of Oh, absolutely not, I mean,
Speaker 1: and I feel like that's what ARTI told me when
Speaker 1: I sat across from him as he said, Man, he said, Claude,
Speaker 1: it was a good guy, he said. He said, any
Speaker 1: other situation, we probably would have been really best friends. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we had. We had a lot of fun together. I mean,
Speaker 1: we really did. I mean, just like saying, there's just
Speaker 1: some stuff you can't fake. I mean there's there are
Speaker 1: times that I can remember leaving looking back or t
Speaker 1: would you know, he'd be laughing so hard, you know,
Speaker 1: teared becoming out of his eyes. I mean that that
Speaker 1: was on a lot of different occasions. Getting back to
Speaker 1: that question, Um, you know, Uh, I was so depressed
Speaker 1: to think that that happened to me. You know, It's
Speaker 1: like I couldn't get over for a long time to
Speaker 1: think that that he'd done that to me, And um,
Speaker 1: I almost wanted revenge, you know. And uh, but you know,
Speaker 1: he was doing his job. That's what he gets paid
Speaker 1: to do. And that's how I look at it now,
Speaker 1: looking back at it, I mean, he's here to do
Speaker 1: his job. And he did his job. But for me,
Speaker 1: it was just it was not real. I mean that
Speaker 1: that I actually happened to me. I mean you you
Speaker 1: can ask my wife and that them times. For uh
Speaker 1: first two or three weeks, I didn't want to be here.
Speaker 1: I didn't, you know, I just didn't. I was in
Speaker 1: a real bad place. It was a dark time for
Speaker 1: you told that it was, yeah, and then I just
Speaker 1: didn't know if I could pull out of it. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's for the audience that's listening right now. Unless you're there,
Speaker 1: you know, you do. You can't have that feeling unless
Speaker 1: you know, unless this actually happened to you. But with
Speaker 1: that said, I brought it all myself. It wasn't like
Speaker 1: anybody twist my arm to make me do what I done.
Speaker 1: From the very beginning, I appreciated Claude's honesty about this
Speaker 1: whole situation, but also how he takes full responsibility for it.
Speaker 1: You'll never hear him blame anyone else, and that's rare.
Speaker 1: Human nature, in its wild pursuit to justify its own action,
Speaker 1: often relieves its burdened by shifting blame. But not Claude. Maxwell.
Speaker 1: You remember me saying I wasn't the most popular guy
Speaker 1: in Mcconnellsville after bringing Operation Redbug to the national stage
Speaker 1: after thirty years of it being not there. I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure much of the town believes that this thing was
Speaker 1: heavy handed, that in parts of the operation these guys
Speaker 1: were entrapped. I'm just reporting what I heard on the
Speaker 1: streets of Mcconnellsville, not from Claude. But even if it
Speaker 1: was heavy handed, the operation was valuable. Let me cast
Speaker 1: a metaphor into the river of your mind to the
Speaker 1: caribou herd as a whole. The lone animal that gets
Speaker 1: eaten by the wolf is lost, but impacts them more
Speaker 1: than the living. It's death changes the life of the
Speaker 1: whole herd. They adapt, they re route, they become stronger.
Speaker 1: The wolf makes the caribou strong. In this metaphor, the
Speaker 1: undercover work is the wolf, and by picking some of
Speaker 1: the stragglers off, in a sense, it purifies and strengthens
Speaker 1: the whole herd, which the whole herd would be the
Speaker 1: hunting community. Though you and me weren't suspects and Operation Redbud,
Speaker 1: it has impacted our life. You know, if you're a
Speaker 1: hunter the herd nose, are you with me? This type
Speaker 1: of law enforcement is necessary for our system of wildlife
Speaker 1: management to be successful. And we'll see that getting caught
Speaker 1: by the wolf can change your life for the better. Isaac.
Speaker 1: That was probably way too deep of a metaphor. I
Speaker 1: don't know if people are going to get it. Oh
Speaker 1: we're recording. Here's Claude. What were you actually charged for
Speaker 1: and what was the punishment for it? And I know
Speaker 1: you can't cite all seventy four wildlife violations. That's how
Speaker 1: I mean. I hadn't sety four. I think most of
Speaker 1: the uh finds, the citations I got out of seventy
Speaker 1: four of them, you know a lot of them more,
Speaker 1: you know, you might have been hunting without hunter orange
Speaker 1: or maybe. Um I'm just trying to think of some
Speaker 1: of the crazy charges that I had that they wouldn't
Speaker 1: wasn't serious charges, Okay, I see, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: They were just they were trying to get you for
Speaker 1: every single possible thing. Yeah, and I think they did
Speaker 1: how many actual convictions of killing the legal game up
Speaker 1: to seventy four? You know, I used to have that
Speaker 1: big pamphlet. I think I throwed it away because I
Speaker 1: wanted to worship every member away that of that day,
Speaker 1: I think um I had got charged for killing seven
Speaker 1: turkeys or maybe eight turkeys and seven or eight deer
Speaker 1: in that eighteen months or whatever. It was okay that
Speaker 1: we hung out. So did you go to jail? Well no,
Speaker 1: I remember being incord so with fifteen wildlife officers they're coming,
Speaker 1: or fifteen vehicles. They didn't handcuff you and take you
Speaker 1: to jail. No, no, Now, if I had in cooperated, yes,
Speaker 1: I've been on my way to jail. So it's mainly fines.
Speaker 1: And then they they revoked your Ohio hunting license for life. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: how much infines? Did you can? I ask you that?
Speaker 1: How much infines? The jeff to play eleven thousand? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Actually the crazy as this is when I had hired
Speaker 1: this turney out of Lancashire, Ohio. But anyhow, he come
Speaker 1: down representative me, Well, thanks for We're just going to
Speaker 1: do a plea bargain. Okay, I'm guilty of this many charges,
Speaker 1: I think I end up. I think I was guilty
Speaker 1: of like seventy of them probably, I mean I was
Speaker 1: guilty of all of them. Everything that that ort honestly
Speaker 1: got me for. I was guilty of I mean even
Speaker 1: back then that was your position, just like I'm guilty.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna yeah, basically basically because my attorney had
Speaker 1: looked over the films and things. He said, well, they
Speaker 1: really got you, Claude. And then I said, I know that.
Speaker 1: So all we can do right now is a good
Speaker 1: court and make the best of it. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: think they gave me this big fine and he turns
Speaker 1: to me in the worstiper here he said, it's gonna
Speaker 1: do now. He's gonna do give me, uh six months
Speaker 1: in jail and eleven thousand on her fine. So he
Speaker 1: whispered down the air and he said that's not too bad, Claude.
Speaker 1: He said, if I as you, I take that play.
Speaker 1: I said, I'm not doing six months in jail. He
Speaker 1: looks at me, said really, I said yeah really. So
Speaker 1: he gets up and says he makes a play to
Speaker 1: the court, you know, and said, you know, Claude's got
Speaker 1: two little kids. Can show some land and see. So
Speaker 1: the judge thinks about it for a second and kinds
Speaker 1: back and said, yeah, he's gonna give me six months
Speaker 1: house arrest. So I gotta wear a leg bracelet for
Speaker 1: six months. Was that was that a stiff enough penalty.
Speaker 1: Do you think, like if you were just looking at
Speaker 1: this from the outside, you knew what you were doing,
Speaker 1: and like in your life, what would have Because I mean,
Speaker 1: all these punitive penalties that the court systems would enact
Speaker 1: would ultimately be designed to get people on the right track.
Speaker 1: I mean, say whatever somebody want. I mean, was it
Speaker 1: stiff enough? Was it too stiff? What do you think
Speaker 1: looking back? I get yeah, I thought it was almost
Speaker 1: two stiffs. And let me tell you why, because I
Speaker 1: wasn't making no money whatsoever then, I mean, eleven might
Speaker 1: as well have been a hundred thousand. Yeah, of course.
Speaker 1: I mean I was like, I was like, how in
Speaker 1: the world am I ever gonna pay eleven thousand? Allar
Speaker 1: fune off? I mean, I don't have that kind of money.
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't. Then. Was that was that helpful
Speaker 1: to you in the process of being reformed? I think
Speaker 1: it was. I mean, because you know, and I'm not
Speaker 1: saying this to talk specifically about you, but people all
Speaker 1: over the country talk about how wildlife violators get off
Speaker 1: too easy. Yeah, I mean, really like some of this
Speaker 1: stuff going on because it's not narcotics or or some
Speaker 1: kind of abuse, you know, like human abuse or violence
Speaker 1: or when when these things go to court, a lot
Speaker 1: of time judges have compassion on this guy or leniency
Speaker 1: and then but in the wildlife space, it can upset
Speaker 1: people because because you know, as a culture, we value
Speaker 1: wildlife and we value being able to go and hunt,
Speaker 1: and we have this thing in North America that's really
Speaker 1: unique to the world and that guys like me and
Speaker 1: you can go hunt and hunt turkey, and I mean,
Speaker 1: like it's unusual. What do you think about that? I mean,
Speaker 1: do you do you think judges should do what they
Speaker 1: did to you? Yeah? I mean, you know, listen, I
Speaker 1: probably had everything that come to me as you know
Speaker 1: what I got I had coming to me. I probably
Speaker 1: need to stop. I mean, I I want to say
Speaker 1: out of control I was. It was not right by
Speaker 1: no means, and so what I got come to me
Speaker 1: and with ur t uh he you know, he did
Speaker 1: his job him, don did. I'm not uh saying that,
Speaker 1: uh that he should have done way done, because that's
Speaker 1: what he was able to do. On this side, it's
Speaker 1: easy to say the poachers got what they deserved and
Speaker 1: leave feeling good about the steaming hot plate of justice.
Speaker 1: They got served, which is an entirely justifiable position that
Speaker 1: most of us have almost all the time. And I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to make us soft on criminals and act
Speaker 1: like they're the victims. But what I am saying is
Speaker 1: that every situation has two sides worth thinking about. I
Speaker 1: want to ask Claude about re entering his life after
Speaker 1: the conviction. You just you felt the just kind of
Speaker 1: the social shame of what happened. I mean, you were
Speaker 1: embarrassed by it. You were like, what were the what
Speaker 1: were the feelings going on? Yeah, I mean I was
Speaker 1: um as people like say, the people that didn't know me,
Speaker 1: It was about to find out the things that I've done.
Speaker 1: So you know, majority of these people that I worked
Speaker 1: around had no clue you know, spotlighting turkey hunting and whatever.
Speaker 1: But you know, even even then when I was doing it,
Speaker 1: I never really I never even thought it was that
Speaker 1: big a deal. I guess now today, Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: looking back, it was a big deal. I mean, you're
Speaker 1: breaking a law. I mean that's just it's not uh,
Speaker 1: it's not a sportsman thing to do. So yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: It was really hard going back to work. I didn't
Speaker 1: want to go back to work. I wanted quick because
Speaker 1: I didn't want to see nobody. I didn't want to
Speaker 1: be around nobody because I knew I knew what was
Speaker 1: gonna take place. I mean, it never ended for months,
Speaker 1: people wanting to know the story, and people criticizing me
Speaker 1: for who for what I've done, And then there's people
Speaker 1: that you know that stood beside me too. You know,
Speaker 1: you gotta have a little bit of support or something
Speaker 1: like that happened to you. It was a bad time,
Speaker 1: so talented was Uh, how did you recover from it?
Speaker 1: I mean, because really, your story, it's so it's so
Speaker 1: unusual that you would be in that position when you're
Speaker 1: thirty and then now you're sixty, and like I said,
Speaker 1: I mean, I I feel like I'm sitting across from
Speaker 1: an intact man. I mean not just because of your
Speaker 1: business success, That's not what I'm talking about, just your
Speaker 1: family's intact. And I don't know your son's well, but
Speaker 1: I've met one of them and I just just yeah,
Speaker 1: it's unusual. Great kid, I mean, he's Uh. I honestly
Speaker 1: think if I hadn't had a family, then my wife
Speaker 1: was royal support of me, and she always has been
Speaker 1: probably the greatest woman, I know, um, but yeah, so
Speaker 1: having a having a big family like I had just
Speaker 1: my brothers and sisters and and just from my family.
Speaker 1: And then not to mention Heidi's family, I mean, all
Speaker 1: of her family were super close. You know, we're they
Speaker 1: all supported you through this. Yeah, they didn't know disown,
Speaker 1: you know. I remember her dad telling me one day.
Speaker 1: I think it might have been two or three days
Speaker 1: after it all come down, but I remember being on
Speaker 1: a couch. I don't think I got off the couch
Speaker 1: for a week. I mean, I was that bummed. I mean,
Speaker 1: I just didn't want to talk to nobody. Well, he'd
Speaker 1: come out and I had just told his son the
Speaker 1: story the other day, but I said, I can remember
Speaker 1: being really depressed. So the good guy that her dad is,
Speaker 1: he tried to, uh make make things better for me.
Speaker 1: He said, well, Claude, he said, you know you're only
Speaker 1: up from here. You're gonna go up from here. He said,
Speaker 1: you just you gotta pull yourself together and uh and
Speaker 1: make the best of it. He said, we all love you.
Speaker 1: He said, you know, just you made a few mistakes,
Speaker 1: and ain't we all. I might said yeah or whatever,
Speaker 1: but I didn't want to talk to nobody. And as
Speaker 1: you can imagine, how many times my phone would ring
Speaker 1: a day, people wanting to know or I just I
Speaker 1: just never took a phone call. I just but I
Speaker 1: knew at some point, you know, I'm gonna have to
Speaker 1: get back to work. And uh, if it wasn't for
Speaker 1: the fact of having a wife and a four year
Speaker 1: old old son, and then uh, my daughter Adrian, she
Speaker 1: was just born, I probably wouldn't have went back to work.
Speaker 1: I probably would have quit and started a new life somewhere,
Speaker 1: or maybe wouldn't even made it that far, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Because I was not in a good place. Then,
Speaker 1: by every indicator possible to gauge a human, Claude was
Speaker 1: at the very bottom. But as painful as it is
Speaker 1: to be there, Claude's father in law was right. The
Speaker 1: only place to go is up, and being at the
Speaker 1: bottom is often necessary to get people going in the
Speaker 1: right direction. The bottom isn't always bad. Part of Claude's
Speaker 1: conviction was a lifetime suspension of his Ohio hunting license.
Speaker 1: That's a hard slap for a man whose blood runs
Speaker 1: thick with the love of wild places and beasts, even
Speaker 1: being someone who was abusing the law. He was fueled
Speaker 1: by the same mysterious draft that has caught so many
Speaker 1: of us. After seven years, Claude was advised to go
Speaker 1: to the county judge and ask for the punishment to
Speaker 1: be revisited, and to his surprise, the paperwork on the
Speaker 1: revocation of his license was never completed and he was
Speaker 1: actually eligible to buy his Ohio license anyhow. He um,
Speaker 1: he told me, I could, you're good to go get
Speaker 1: your license, which I don't think at the time or
Speaker 1: local game warden was very happy about that. But from
Speaker 1: that day on, I did things right. I gotta get
Speaker 1: myself on the right track here, and you know, even
Speaker 1: taking my son hunting and stuff. You know, I took
Speaker 1: my son hunting a lot. I tried to teach him
Speaker 1: right and and he does things right, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, He's he's a good kid. But anyhow, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a that's a big transition. I mean, you you
Speaker 1: kind of make it sound simple, and I realized it's
Speaker 1: it wasn't really simple. Let's be honest. I mean, even
Speaker 1: though what I did get my license back, I said, man,
Speaker 1: I sure miss him days of just going out there
Speaker 1: having fun. But I knew better you know, and I
Speaker 1: never did. I don't. I never went out early turkey hunting,
Speaker 1: early deer hunting, nothing squirrel hunting. I mean, from that
Speaker 1: day on, I just you know, I want by the rules.
Speaker 1: That's just how you know. If it's one turkey season,
Speaker 1: that's what I killed, one turkey, And if it's one
Speaker 1: deer's one deer. I just it's just looking back of
Speaker 1: how I was then. I mean, I was a little
Speaker 1: one I'll control. But it feels good to be on
Speaker 1: the right path. I mean, it's way better, you know,
Speaker 1: it's uh, it makes you a better person. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: really does. Well, it sounds like there was it was
Speaker 1: a it was a broader and I'm speculating, but I'm
Speaker 1: speculating off pretty hard evidence that I have of not
Speaker 1: knowing you well, but but seeing what you've done inside
Speaker 1: this community and just talking me to hear face to face.
Speaker 1: Is that. I mean, it sounds like your life took
Speaker 1: a turn for the for the better and a whole
Speaker 1: lot of places. I mean, because somebody that's partying and
Speaker 1: wild and disregarding game laws is not going to be
Speaker 1: able to do what you've done because you, I mean,
Speaker 1: you have a very successful outdoor store here in Mcconnell'sville.
Speaker 1: You opened up this bowling alley. You've got multiple I mean,
Speaker 1: you're a successful guy, you're fan and when I meet
Speaker 1: your family, your family is intact, which in today's world
Speaker 1: is a big deal. Sure. I mean to have kids
Speaker 1: that respect you and have a great family and very fortunate.
Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like you A lot changed probably
Speaker 1: from those days, Am I right? Oh yeah, it has.
Speaker 1: I mean it's uh a lot has changed, uh, which
Speaker 1: is really hard to believe that even looking back that
Speaker 1: all my life, you know how much things have changed
Speaker 1: from me. I mean, I think when you do right
Speaker 1: people people will notice it. We do a lot for
Speaker 1: our community. I mean we really do. I say no
Speaker 1: to nobody, you know what I mean, if someone comes
Speaker 1: in wants a donation for whatever it might be. You know,
Speaker 1: it might be a family member sick, or we just
Speaker 1: help out. We do. I mean, it's just what we are.
Speaker 1: But quite a far cry from what I used to be.
Speaker 1: Not that I never looked at myself as a horrible person,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean when I was when I
Speaker 1: was growing up. I mean I had a great family,
Speaker 1: when I had eight brothers and sisters. You know, and
Speaker 1: where are the birth order next to the youngest. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: my mom, dad, with great people, all my brothers and sisters,
Speaker 1: I mean, and we're all tightened it. I mean we're
Speaker 1: of course, none of my family looked down on me
Speaker 1: from what I had done. I mean because you know, blood,
Speaker 1: stick and water, but you know, they realized I've done wrong.
Speaker 1: I was in a good place in my world at
Speaker 1: that time, especially after six when the Thursday of June
Speaker 1: sixteenth and ninety six, a lot of good day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's when all the O, D and R is at
Speaker 1: my house. It was almost like unbelievable, man, you've gained
Speaker 1: my respect, and that you were willing to talk to me.
Speaker 1: I mean, I I think it takes a lot of
Speaker 1: guts for you just to even just talk about it,
Speaker 1: which you didn't ask for anybody to bring this all
Speaker 1: back up, you know, And you didn't ask for me
Speaker 1: to come up here and talk to you. I asked, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was listening to your podcast, but r T And
Speaker 1: then that's uh. And that's when so somebody somebody sent
Speaker 1: you the Burgaries podcast and said, Claude, you got you
Speaker 1: gotta listen to this. Yes, what did you think when
Speaker 1: you heard us talking about Operation Redbud. Wow, I was
Speaker 1: kinda I was, I was, I was set back, and
Speaker 1: then I ain't gonna lie. I was like, uh dang,
Speaker 1: I said, Uh. Then that many years and they're still
Speaker 1: talking about me and uh. And I thought we relieved
Speaker 1: when we bleeped your name out, I was, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean because there would really know needing using my name.
Speaker 1: I guess yeah. I think everybody knows anything about Operation Redbudd,
Speaker 1: knows who who was involved regionally, and that's what That's
Speaker 1: what I found out. Again, this this new new stuff
Speaker 1: to me. Just in the last couple of months. I
Speaker 1: would have never heard of this. I think regionally, Operation
Speaker 1: Red Butt is real well known. Nationally maybe not. And
Speaker 1: and I've shared this with you privately, is that when
Speaker 1: I did this, like, I never really thought about the
Speaker 1: repercussions of it. And that's part of the reason I
Speaker 1: wanted to come to you today, because I mean, you're
Speaker 1: the guy we were talking about. Yeah, we bleeped out
Speaker 1: your name, but still part of this part of the
Speaker 1: story was you. And then it never occurred to me
Speaker 1: that because it really we were trying to highlight like
Speaker 1: wildlife agents and law enforcement and and so for that,
Speaker 1: I guess I in a way apologized to Uh. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm not upset that I did the story. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm not, but but it probably brought some something into
Speaker 1: your life that you weren't asking for, but people coming
Speaker 1: and saying, hey, look at this. I was a little, uh,
Speaker 1: was a little heasitant to do this podcast today. I mean,
Speaker 1: my son's want to said, now, Dad, you need to
Speaker 1: do it. You need to just do it. He's I
Speaker 1: think we'll do you some good. And uh, even last
Speaker 1: night I didn't. I I was kind of up and
Speaker 1: down all and I think about and uh, maybe what
Speaker 1: to say or or even how to say it, I guess,
Speaker 1: but I don't know. I honestly, I think it's made
Speaker 1: me a better person. I mean, not this podcast, but
Speaker 1: just a better person than what I used to be.
Speaker 1: I mean, heck, who knows if if it hadn't happened
Speaker 1: to me thirty years ago, who knows where I'd be.
Speaker 1: It was almost unbelievable. Claude said, you get the feeling
Speaker 1: that it's hard for him to look back and believe
Speaker 1: that this actually happened, especially when you look at how
Speaker 1: successful his life has been. Since them. This story is
Speaker 1: about the stereotypes that we all have at different times,
Speaker 1: about people that are sometimes just wrong. It's a story
Speaker 1: of how people can change and be different. It's a
Speaker 1: story about how some actions don't always lead to the
Speaker 1: outcomes we think they will. But at its core, at
Speaker 1: a more philosophical level, I think this story is about
Speaker 1: repentance and forgiveness. These words are fundamental to the human experience.
Speaker 1: Repentance is ultimately taking responsibility for your actions and making
Speaker 1: changes so the bad stuff doesn't happen again. Forgiveness is
Speaker 1: in essence forgetting an offense. Humans crave these things. We
Speaker 1: want people who have done wrong to be sorry, and
Speaker 1: punitive justice can be part of that repentance, And when
Speaker 1: we do wrong, we deeply want people to forgive us.
Speaker 1: When I was in my early twenties, I had a
Speaker 1: moment of clarity of what forgiveness was. I had had
Speaker 1: a wretched nightmare of those where you've done something terrible
Speaker 1: and unbearable. Stress is caving in around you, and the
Speaker 1: dream I had stolen a car and was running from
Speaker 1: the police. I deeply regretted what I had done, but
Speaker 1: it was too late. I couldn't undo it. The tension
Speaker 1: of the dream grew to such height that my resting
Speaker 1: state was unable to contain it, and I awoke in
Speaker 1: a burst of consciousness. The feelings of regret and consequence
Speaker 1: lingered into reality, until after a few moments of looking around,
Speaker 1: I realized that I was in my bed. I actually
Speaker 1: hadn't stolen the car. It was only a dream. A
Speaker 1: gush of relief poured over me like cool water. I
Speaker 1: felt as if my life had restarted. In that moment.
Speaker 1: I thought walked across my mind that I would never forget,
Speaker 1: and the thought was, this is what true forgiveness is like.
Speaker 1: It's like a dream that never actually happened. It was powerful,
Speaker 1: and the implication of that was what if I could
Speaker 1: deliver that kind of forgiveness to the people in my
Speaker 1: life who had done me wrong? And what if I
Speaker 1: could receive that kind of forgiveness for the stuff and
Speaker 1: the people that I had wronged. As humans, we have
Speaker 1: a powerful tool at our disposal that apes and mules
Speaker 1: don't have the luxurious option of dispensing or receiving, And
Speaker 1: that tool is a choice that we have to extend
Speaker 1: a functional forgiveness to others and to receive forgiveness. I
Speaker 1: think our society could use a refresher on how to
Speaker 1: use the powerful human tools of repentance and forgiveness rather
Speaker 1: than living with bitterness and shame. That's not being soft
Speaker 1: on crime, that's being strong on cure. I'd like to
Speaker 1: extend a genue wine bear Grease hat tip to Claude
Speaker 1: Maxwell and to RT Steward. It took a lot of
Speaker 1: guts for both of these guys to tell their story.
Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough for listening to Bear Grease.
Speaker 1: We're putting all we have into these stories, and I
Speaker 1: deeply value every person that I have the opportunity to interview,
Speaker 1: and I deeply value every one of you guys that
Speaker 1: engage so deeply into these stories. I thank you for
Speaker 1: your support of our podcast, and you can help us
Speaker 1: by sharing this podcast with your family and friends and
Speaker 1: leaving us a review on iTunes. And you can follow
Speaker 1: me on social media at Clay Underscore Nucomb. Instagram is
Speaker 1: my main platform, but I'm also on the TikTok with
Speaker 1: all the kids, hipsters and data snatchers. Maybe they'll snatch
Speaker 1: you up this story. Who knows. Have a great week,
Speaker 1: and I look forward to discussing this story with everybody
Speaker 1: on next week's Render. Whoa, who whoo, whoam