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Speaker 1: Yeah, this episode came at me as a surprise and

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Speaker 1: kind of a shocker. It wasn't planned, but after a

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Speaker 1: string of emails and the flurry of phone calls the

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Speaker 1: first week of December, I found myself on a plane

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Speaker 1: headed to southeast Ohio. Our Secret Agent Man series ended

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Speaker 1: a few weeks ago, and on that series we heard

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Speaker 1: about the illustrious and wild career of undercover wildlife agent

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Speaker 1: Artie Stewart. In Ohio, he told us about Operation Redbud,

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Speaker 1: which in the nineteen nineties was the largest turkey poachings

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Speaker 1: thing in US history. You've heard about that a ton,

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Speaker 1: But I learned something about telling old stories. They don't

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Speaker 1: always end where you think they do. Stories continue, and

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Speaker 1: they always have more than one side. That's all I

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Speaker 1: can say for now, But I really doubt you couldn't

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Speaker 1: want to miss this one June a lot of good day.

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Speaker 1: It was almost like unbelievable. My name is Clay Nukelem

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Speaker 1: and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore

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Speaker 1: things forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places,

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Speaker 1: and where we'll tell the story of Americans who lived

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Speaker 1: their lives close to the land. Presented by f HF Gear,

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Speaker 1: American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed

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Speaker 1: to be as rugged as the places we explore. So

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Speaker 1: when did you buy this place. I'm gonna guess probably

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Speaker 1: a year and a half, the two year ago maybe,

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Speaker 1: and it was it was shut down. No, it was

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Speaker 1: so operating when we bought it. And uh, but it

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Speaker 1: didn't look not even on the scale it looks like today.

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Speaker 1: It was just needed updated. Like I say, we owned

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Speaker 1: the Piza shop next door. So actually my father in

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Speaker 1: law said, you know what, Claude, and he said, on

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Speaker 1: any day you said, you just buy that bowling alley too.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, you've lost your mind too,

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Speaker 1: you know. So uh, well, the next thing, you know,

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Speaker 1: we've come up for sale. So we bought it and uh.

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Speaker 1: And then we bought it, we shut the doors and

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Speaker 1: uh and did a big remodel. I mean, we got

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Speaker 1: it all so down to the bear like bear concrete.

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Speaker 1: That's that's what was left. This is my first time

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Speaker 1: to Mcconnell'sville, Ohio. It's a cute town of about sevent people,

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Speaker 1: built on the banks of the Mosqugam River in the

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Speaker 1: southeast part of the state. Mcconnell'sville is also where most

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Speaker 1: of the twenty six men and dieted in Operation Redbud live.

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Speaker 1: Of if you've lived in small town America, there's certain

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Speaker 1: people that stand out. They're woven into the fabric of

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Speaker 1: the community and make it thrive. Their leaders well respected,

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Speaker 1: their contributors and functional pillars of the community. We've just

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Speaker 1: heard the voice of Claude Maxwell. There was ten lanes

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Speaker 1: of bowling here, so we tore three out. So you know,

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Speaker 1: as you see we got the dartboards. Uh pull table

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Speaker 1: over there. You can't stay it from here. But then

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Speaker 1: big kitchen. There's a restaurant here. Yes, it's very nice

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Speaker 1: restaurant back here also, so back here there's two virtual

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Speaker 1: golf bays, which will be I'm sure a big hit.

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Speaker 1: So Mcconnell'sville is not a big town, so this is

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Speaker 1: gonna be like a hub for for people to come

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Speaker 1: to a like a real social I'm hoping it's gonna

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Speaker 1: be a big fit for the Mcconellsville people. Um, and

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Speaker 1: I know it's a lot of people excited about because

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Speaker 1: you know, there's nothing really here for the kids to do.

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Speaker 1: Claude is sixty years old, and wears fashionable dark frame glasses.

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Speaker 1: He drives a late model Chevy Silverado pickup. The back

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Speaker 1: seats are folded up and the floorboard is full of

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Speaker 1: the walk tools and construction supplies. When I opened the

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Speaker 1: passenger door, he scrambles to clear away work gloves and

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Speaker 1: cabinet hardware still in the packaging. It's clear that Claude

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Speaker 1: has worked hard for everything that he's got, and it's

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Speaker 1: evident he and his family are these kind of standout people.

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Speaker 1: The bowling Alley in the pizza place called Maxwell's Pizza

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Speaker 1: are side by side overlooking the river. The pizza place

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Speaker 1: has a rooftop dining area that's been voted as one

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Speaker 1: of the top ten best rooftops in Ohio. Both of

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Speaker 1: these businesses are being spearheaded by Claude's son cast a

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Speaker 1: really sharp and kind fella in his early thirties. Cass

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Speaker 1: was just four years old on Sunday, June nineteen. He

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Speaker 1: thought there must have been an early morning party at

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Speaker 1: their house when all the vehicles rushed into their driveway.

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Speaker 1: Not to be outdone by her older brother, Claude's daughter

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Speaker 1: Adrian started a cafe in downtown Mcconnellsville called the Bluebird Cafe,

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Speaker 1: and I kid you not, they served me the best

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Speaker 1: breakfast I've eaten in the last five years. The place

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Speaker 1: is top notch. It's become overwhelmingly clear to me that

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Speaker 1: these Maxwell's have something special. And I haven't even told

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Speaker 1: you that Claude runs a sporting goods store called Maxwell's

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Speaker 1: Hunting Supplies. So that we're in Mcconnellsville. Ah, he's introducing

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Speaker 1: me to a man that we've met on the sidewalk. So, uh,

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Speaker 1: this is the guy that is the podcast for Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well you know the operation. Yeah, So we just got

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Speaker 1: done here. Did you hear about that that we did

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Speaker 1: a podcast on that. My boy was talking North Carolinas

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Speaker 1: told me about always that right from that there, this

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Speaker 1: just happened. Uh. Ron is literally the first person we've

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Speaker 1: met on the street. As we walked towards Claude's hunting store.

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Speaker 1: After a slightly awkward moment, I realized that I might

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Speaker 1: not be the most popular man in Mcconnellsville. Not everybody

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Speaker 1: was pumped about some outsider talking about Operation Redbud without

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Speaker 1: hearing the full story. But I went ahead and asked

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Speaker 1: Ron appointed question. Yeah, so, so who who do you

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Speaker 1: know Claude Maxwell to be inside this community. He's a

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Speaker 1: great this man, now, don't know. I mean what they've

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Speaker 1: done in this community is outstanding. I mean with with

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Speaker 1: the blue Bell and the bowling alley and the rough top,

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Speaker 1: you know, pizza shop. I mean, it's just terriffic what

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Speaker 1: he's done. And I'm proud of the whole family. They're

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Speaker 1: all good workers. So I mean he's like a pillar

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Speaker 1: in this community, is it? Would that be right? Well?

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Speaker 1: I hate to say that he really is. The whole

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Speaker 1: family needs to be commended for what they've done here.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah yeah, sorry to walk

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Speaker 1: up to on the street and just shove a making

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Speaker 1: your face. The Mcconnellsville tour continues. We're now in Maxwell's

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Speaker 1: Hunting Supplies. So we're walking in Maxwell's Hunting and Fishing

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Speaker 1: Supplies store. But I had the store is tidy and

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Speaker 1: packed wall to wall and floor to ceiling with archery targets,

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Speaker 1: deer blinds, and bottles of doe estras. Behind the counter

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Speaker 1: is a wall full of guns of all kinds. The

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Speaker 1: middle of the store has hunting clothing and a bow

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Speaker 1: rack and in the back of the store you couldn't

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Speaker 1: fit another jig or crank bait on the shelves. We

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Speaker 1: sell Matthews um Hoyt an elite and then of course

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Speaker 1: you know uh Raven Crossbows, several different crossbow companies. We

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Speaker 1: handle big selection of fishing equipments. Yes, and uh we

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Speaker 1: can walk on back do here, but yeah, give me

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Speaker 1: the full tour. Man. What I'm about to tell you

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Speaker 1: won't make sense unless you've listened to our Secret Agent

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Speaker 1: Man series. We worked hard in the podcast to hide

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Speaker 1: the identity of the man that we called Target number two.

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Speaker 1: This was the guy that RTI Stewart became very close with,

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Speaker 1: the guy rt so badly wanted to tell that he

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Speaker 1: was an undercover agent because he liked him so much. Well,

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Speaker 1: Claude Maxwell is Target number two of Operation Red Butt.

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Speaker 1: If you recall, through the undercover work of Art and

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Speaker 1: his partner, they brought charges against twenty six men, and

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Speaker 1: these guys were convicted of over two hundred and seventy

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Speaker 1: five wildlife violations. But when you do the math, Claude

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Speaker 1: Maxwell received exactly twenty percent of those violations. He pleaded

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Speaker 1: guilty to seventy four When I first heard about Artie

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Speaker 1: Stewart and his undercover work, I was interested in highlighting

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Speaker 1: the work done by the wildlife law enforcement of this country.

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Speaker 1: The freedoms that we have as hunters carry a high

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Speaker 1: price tag, and part of the cost is making sure

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Speaker 1: that the law is followed. Artis openness gave us insight

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Speaker 1: into a hidden layer of law enforcements seldom seen the

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Speaker 1: world of undercover work. His stories were fascinating, and he

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Speaker 1: was very good at what he did. However, what never

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Speaker 1: occurred to me, what never crossed my mind, is how

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Speaker 1: these stories intersected the lives of those that he chased.

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Speaker 1: I never expected to talk to Target number two, to

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Speaker 1: be honest with you, it was almost like he didn't exist.

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Speaker 1: But oh he does, and he's not who I thought

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Speaker 1: he would be. Here's Claude Maxwell. Well before this started,

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Speaker 1: before I met the undercover I worked at a a

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Speaker 1: manager drive through in a bar. I worked there for

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Speaker 1: probably seventeen years. I met a lot of people. I

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Speaker 1: met a lot of great people. That was basically how

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Speaker 1: I met the undercover agent. Was where I worked at

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Speaker 1: intentionally commend to meet me I had met the undercover guy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I remember exactly when it was and uh, well,

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Speaker 1: automatically we uh we hit it off pretty good. Of course,

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Speaker 1: I think he was probably hoping we get hit it

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Speaker 1: off pretty good. But we started hanging out and uh

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Speaker 1: started hunting from mayor, I guess. I mean, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but like you said, that's what that's what I've done

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Speaker 1: for seventeen years. Claude was in his early thirties and

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Speaker 1: nine he was married and had two children. He worked

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Speaker 1: as a bartender, and it was here that he met

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Speaker 1: Bob Thomas, or at least that's what the man said

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Speaker 1: his name was. But why was he here to meet Claude?

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Speaker 1: So the Ohio DNR would have had you in their crosshairs.

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Speaker 1: So you were killing turkeys before season, some deer before

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Speaker 1: in season. Yep, that's what was going on. I sure did.

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Speaker 1: Um I tell you I was out hunting turkeys one

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Speaker 1: morning before season, and uh, and I'd probably killed I

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Speaker 1: don't know, maybe a couple of birds, I guess before

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Speaker 1: season that year. And the guy I used to work

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Speaker 1: for at this bar or his son was real good

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Speaker 1: friends with the game wards and daughter at high school.

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Speaker 1: He had come home and I've seen this boy every

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Speaker 1: day he'd pulled me aside one day said hey, said, uh,

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Speaker 1: just let you know that the game wards daughter, which

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna mention your name, had told me that

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Speaker 1: my dad has got the radar on you. So I

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Speaker 1: actually started getting nervous about that. I mean, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: like I was out every day hunting, but you know

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Speaker 1: there was days i'd go, you know, a few days

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Speaker 1: in a row, generally a couple of weeks before season.

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Speaker 1: Come in Turky, God, I want to be hunt him.

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Speaker 1: So anyhow, one morning I was coming back and I've

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Speaker 1: been turkey hunting. Actually didn't care a gun that morning

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Speaker 1: because of what this boy had told me of off

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Speaker 1: the game warden. Well, he'd definitely done had his eyes

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Speaker 1: locked on me because we was coming on County Road three,

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Speaker 1: and I looked at every vehicle that went by me.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I just I still do today. I mean

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Speaker 1: I just I guess it's just a habit of you know,

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Speaker 1: way with people or whatever. Well, that morning, a particular morning,

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Speaker 1: I had passed the game warden. There's two of them,

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Speaker 1: and I knew the local game warden very well, and

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Speaker 1: so I met him. He was in an undercover car

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Speaker 1: or it maybe even a station way. But I remember saying,

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Speaker 1: so they weren't in their truck. No, No, they were

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Speaker 1: in a civilian car. That you recognize the guy. So

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Speaker 1: when I passed him, of course I freaked out. I

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Speaker 1: was like, wow, he is onto me. So I slowed down.

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Speaker 1: I was actually going to work that morning, so I

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Speaker 1: drove real slow all the way to town because I

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Speaker 1: was positive that was him. And he knew when he

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Speaker 1: seen me who I was. I was in camouflage, you know,

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Speaker 1: he knew I was probably out turkey hunting. I was

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Speaker 1: coming into Malta, which is right across the river. Here

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Speaker 1: this vehicle I finally had caught up with me, and

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Speaker 1: it was the vehicle that I've been waiting for. So

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Speaker 1: you was going slow so he would follow you, or

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Speaker 1: so he could catch up. Catch up. Yeah, so he

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Speaker 1: catch up with me. So and he did catch up

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Speaker 1: with me. So I think he was kind of surprised

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Speaker 1: when he made the turn to come into Malta that

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Speaker 1: he sees my vehicle. And at that time I drove

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Speaker 1: a Chevy Tahoe hatchback, so he sees me. So he

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Speaker 1: takes a left on side street, like I say, I

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Speaker 1: have no weapon in my vehicle. So I take a

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Speaker 1: left at the red light, and I wanted to catch

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Speaker 1: up with him. But the reason he took a left

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Speaker 1: because he's seen me, and he didn't make it look obvious.

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Speaker 1: So we pulled up the side street together. He's coming

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Speaker 1: one way, I'm coming the other way. So I pulled

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Speaker 1: up to him. He rolls his wounded down and I

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Speaker 1: asked him. I said, are you looking for me? And

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Speaker 1: he said, now it's with you, just Outsidelphia. I was

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Speaker 1: pretty sure you're looking for me, he said, Now I

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Speaker 1: was out doing a turkey sort way. We're doing turkey

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Speaker 1: every days. Well, a guy to pass your seat. He

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Speaker 1: stared a hole through me. So anyhow, pulling away from

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Speaker 1: the vehicle, I've seen him smacked this staring. Well, wow,

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Speaker 1: he because he got busted. Yeah, he knew that. I

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Speaker 1: knew that. You know, he's out there looking for me.

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Speaker 1: He knew that. I knew that he was out there

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Speaker 1: looking for me. Though the words Operation Redbud had never

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Speaker 1: been uttered, the pounding of the steering wheel was its

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Speaker 1: genesis moment. Perhaps, if Claude hadn't spoiled their initial plans

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Speaker 1: by taking that left hand turn, maybe the local warden

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Speaker 1: would have caught him and slowed him down, and he

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Speaker 1: would have been an average turkey poacher and we'd never

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Speaker 1: even know who he was. But the what might have

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Speaker 1: been are long gone, like a cottonwood leaf in the

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Speaker 1: current of the Moskegam River. Fate was set into place.

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Speaker 1: You told me about meeting Bob Thomas Art Stewart, and

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Speaker 1: you told me about how you probably could have You

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Speaker 1: were tipped off pretty quick that he was an undercover agent.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that? Yes, Well, when I

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Speaker 1: met Ort, and I can even remember the exact chair

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Speaker 1: he said him when he came in the bar that

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Speaker 1: day and he ordered the Miller light. That's how good

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Speaker 1: my memory is. So we would, uh, just in conversation.

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Speaker 1: We got to talking a little bit that day and

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Speaker 1: he was dressed in camouflage, tipping off that he was

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Speaker 1: a hunter. Yeah, sure, so he knew yeah, because he

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Speaker 1: knew who I was was. I didn't know him. I mean,

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Speaker 1: but you know, RT. Bob Thomas whatever. At that time.

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Speaker 1: The first time we spoke, you were calling him Bob.

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Speaker 1: I thought that was really interesting. Well that's what a

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Speaker 1: long time so I just want the name is Bob.

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Speaker 1: But anyhow, I enjoyed being around Bob just that one day,

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Speaker 1: I had a pretty good field for me. I thought,

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Speaker 1: pretty good Feller. Of course, I'm sure that looking back,

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Speaker 1: I mean, of course Bob wanted to be my friend.

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Speaker 1: He wanted to know me. I want to guess it's

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Speaker 1: probably uh. A few days later arts in the store again.

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Speaker 1: A good friend of mine, Kevin, had come in the bar.

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Speaker 1: We had a side door on the side of the bar.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people just come in that side door,

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Speaker 1: which was the stage, and then you come down three

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Speaker 1: steps and you you'd be in the bar. Well. Kevin

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Speaker 1: had come in the door that I want to say

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Speaker 1: as around one or two in the afternoon, and Bob

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Speaker 1: or r T or whoever was sitting at the edge

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Speaker 1: of the at the bar theyre closest to the stage.

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Speaker 1: Kevin had called him RT. He said, hey, RT, you

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Speaker 1: know you always named a couple of times, and Bob

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Speaker 1: finally looks up at him and said, because I'm talking

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Speaker 1: to Kevin. Bob said, you talking to me? And he said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: ain't you RT store. He said, you must have me

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Speaker 1: mixed up someone else. He said, well you look like

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Speaker 1: the game ward and shocked her down. Uh. Hawking counting

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Speaker 1: Bob said, oh, I ain't no game ward you and uh, well,

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Speaker 1: the dry through bell rang usually when it just rang.

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Speaker 1: One time, I knew it was somebody walking because they

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Speaker 1: just stepped on the rubber hose to make the bell ring.

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Speaker 1: Kevin had left, and I thought it was probably him

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Speaker 1: back there, so well, so he buzzed it for you

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Speaker 1: to come back there. That's right. Wow, so your buddy

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Speaker 1: is like wanting a private meeting with Yes, Kevin always

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Speaker 1: called me Max. One opened door and he said, hey Max,

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Speaker 1: He said, do you know that guy out there to bar,

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Speaker 1: I said, I just made a few days ago. He said,

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Speaker 1: unless he's got a twin. His name is Artie Stewart

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Speaker 1: and he's a game ward instructor in Hawking County. So

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Speaker 1: he said, this is right at the very beginning of

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Speaker 1: what became Operation Redbud. That's right, that's exactly right. So

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Speaker 1: this guy tells you that's Artie Stewart. He's a game ward. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So he said, I'd be careful who you hang out with.

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Speaker 1: He said, I could be wrong. He said, it's been

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Speaker 1: a while since I've seen it, but he said, by god,

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Speaker 1: he said it looks like him, So i'd even uh,

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Speaker 1: mentioned that to my wife and she said, you know,

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Speaker 1: she was like, because she didn't like me going out

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Speaker 1: spotlight and shooting deer. She was not for it. A

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Speaker 1: matter of fact, she would yet ticked off if I went,

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Speaker 1: so not always for it. It's all right, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'll be fine. Anyhow, I went back to the bar

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Speaker 1: and uh, I was talking to Bob and I said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I said, well, Kevin thinks she was a game warden.

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Speaker 1: He said yeah, and then he went on a big

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Speaker 1: spill about that he's a game warden. You know, he

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Speaker 1: just yeah, so, uh, well, that afternoon, I think of

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Speaker 1: that afternoon, Bob had showed me a a turkey in

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Speaker 1: the back of his van, a turkey fan that he

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Speaker 1: had had fanned out, and Utah was a fresh kill.

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Speaker 1: He had his spurs are and he said he had

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Speaker 1: just killed it. And I think he was trying to

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Speaker 1: gain my trust a little bit. Okay, yeah, of course,

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Speaker 1: you know back then I couldn't see past my nose

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Speaker 1: because I'm like, what is the odds of a game

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Speaker 1: warden here in a book like an undercover? I mean,

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Speaker 1: that wasn't even a thing, was it. No? I mean,

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Speaker 1: like I think you probably heard about things like that.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I've never thought would ever happen to men.

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Speaker 1: Of course, when he showed me that, I was like,

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Speaker 1: I kind of trust him, but I just say, I

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Speaker 1: don't think nabe Kevind is exact what he's talking about. Well,

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Speaker 1: then right after that, Bob started wearing yellow lens glasses, sunglasses,

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Speaker 1: and then he grew a full beard. Because when I

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Speaker 1: first met r T, he was clean. They had a mustache,

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Speaker 1: big mustache. After that he wrote a huge beard, so

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Speaker 1: he knew he got busted from He's gonna have to

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Speaker 1: change up a little bit. It's so interesting here in

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Speaker 1: the different sides of the same story arts he told

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Speaker 1: us about this one too. Claude wouldn't have known it,

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Speaker 1: but RT was scrambling on the inside, but he was

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00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:47,040
Speaker 1: also learning, hence the new beard and sunglasses. In our

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Speaker 1: Secret Agent Man podcast, r T told many of the

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00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 1: ins and outs of living undercover and becoming close to Claude.

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Speaker 1: They poached turkeys, spotlighted deer, and became the closest of friends.

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Speaker 1: Here's a funny story. We shot a deer one night,

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Speaker 1: Bob and down. I don't believe it was with us

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Speaker 1: at night, but we shotted and we're down below my

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Speaker 1: buddy Mike's house and world clo down the woods and cold,

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Speaker 1: probably a six or seven inches snow one. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're clear down in the woods, just so wouldn't get caught.

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Speaker 1: And pretty soon Bob and Don snuck up on us.

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Speaker 1: Of course, he's all good friends, and you know, everybody

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Speaker 1: knows everybody, and uh, he got up on snuck up

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Speaker 1: on us and said game warden boys, and we was

353
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Speaker 1: freaking out because I thought it was a game warden.

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Speaker 1: Well it but but man, he told that story three times,

355
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Speaker 1: and man he would laugh looking back. Claude says the

356
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:48,959
Speaker 1: signs were everywhere that his relationship with Bob Thomas was suspect. However,

357
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Speaker 1: this type of undercover work was entirely new, and Claude's

358
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: was like a deer in the headlights, especially when the

359
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Speaker 1: relationship came crashing down. For Clawe, it was the surprise

360
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Speaker 1: of his life, one that would change it forever. So

361
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,439
Speaker 1: our TI talked about how he said he was closer

362
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Speaker 1: to you than probably he was anybody he ever worked,

363
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 1: which was interesting. And part of what we talked about

364
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Speaker 1: was what was it like to be turned in by

365
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Speaker 1: somebody you really thought was your friend. Yeah, that was

366
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Speaker 1: probably the worst thing that probably ever happened to me,

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Speaker 1: to be honest with you. Um, you know, we hung

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Speaker 1: out for a long time together, and I think basically

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Speaker 1: about every day. I mean, there might have been a

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Speaker 1: day or two we didn't hang out, but for the

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Speaker 1: most part we ve together, me and him and Dawn

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Speaker 1: a lot. So when that morning, seven o'clock at the morning,

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Speaker 1: you know, they hit everybody at seven o'clock in the morning,

374
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Speaker 1: all the guys that were involved in the in in

375
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Speaker 1: in the sting. Yeah, well, I remember being in bed

376
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Speaker 1: that morning and we've been up late night we had

377
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Speaker 1: I guess my place was Party Central. W's where everybody

378
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 1: come to when we just hang out and have a

379
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 1: good time. But anyhow, that the morning that happened, I

380
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,360
Speaker 1: kept here on this pounding on my house. I thought

381
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 1: it was dreaming, okay, you know, summertime. And my wife

382
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: finally gets me up, said, you got to look outside. Gosh,

383
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 1: you're in big trouble. That's the exactly what she told me.

384
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Speaker 1: So I jumped up out of bed. Of course, I

385
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: got long hair then, and a matter of fact, had

386
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Speaker 1: orange shorts. One looked like I was getting ready to

387
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Speaker 1: go Joel. So I looked outside and I've seen all

388
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Speaker 1: these wildlife officers and and how many trucks were there? Wow?

389
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Speaker 1: You know, honestly, I think there must have been achieved.

390
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 1: My best recollection probably fifteen are fifteen vehicles pulled up

391
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Speaker 1: to your house. Yeah, there's uh Crown Victories, and there's

392
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:52,360
Speaker 1: uh game warden trucks, a one towing Clumbus News Times Recorder,

393
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 1: which is our local news. Oh wow, so they pulled

394
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Speaker 1: up with a with a a tow truck to tow

395
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 1: your vehicles. Yeah, the media was there. We're gonna film

396
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 1: them pulling you out of your house? Yes, and they did. Yes.

397
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: So you so you answer the door? Yeah, time I

398
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 1: got my barons together. What in the world, you know,

399
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, what's going on? It? Did it even occur

400
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 1: to you that this is because of killing turkeys the league? Nothing?

401
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you're just like, like I said, what's June six?

402
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 1: I mean it's summertimes. They why is all these game

403
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: boardings here? So I couldn't figure out exactly what was

404
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 1: going on. And and they're yelling. I mean, these people

405
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: are yelling open the door or we're busting the door

406
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: in So I ran to the front door and opened

407
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: the door, and when I did, they pulled me out

408
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 1: the door. And I want to know if I hadn't

409
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: loaded firearms in my house, and they read my rights,

410
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 1: and uh, I still couldn't figure out they didn't tell me,

411
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: you know, Bobb and Dawn or whatever. So I was

412
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: it almost seemed like a dream really looking out there

413
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: and seeing all these gameboard vehicles. And I think our

414
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 1: local game warden he was probably a second guy through

415
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: my front door, the guy you saw on the station way.

416
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 1: I can follow on you, yes, yes, and yeah, And

417
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: like you say, he still comes in my store this day.

418
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: I mean that's I have no I have no better feelings,

419
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. He's he's doing his job.

420
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 1: I find Claude's ability to move beyond the past to

421
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: be unusually developed, kind of like when you watch a

422
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: fisherman skilled with a knife filet of fish. What they're

423
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: doing is very difficult, but it looks easy. I'd say

424
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:42,239
Speaker 1: Claude's position is rare. Here's Claude with more. After they

425
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 1: read my rights, we'll go back inside the house. And

426
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 1: my phone's ringing off the hook. As you imagine. Well,

427
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 1: back in the days, you know, you had to answer machines.

428
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: So good buddy, my Mike, and we're still good buzz

429
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: this day. He's probably my best friend. His wife calls me,

430
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: the game wards just left there, left his house. Yeah,

431
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: they get him. Yeah, but they didn't have much on him.

432
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: I mean he didn't. He wasn't out sure with me

433
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: per sae that every day, like why when I was

434
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: going out. But but his wife was in panic mode.

435
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: She said, Claude, if you're there, answer the phone. She said,

436
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: the game wasn't just left my house, she said, and

437
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 1: I think you're on the way to yours, and they

438
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 1: would not let me. You're here in this message as

439
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: there and everybody's right there, all the game right there

440
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 1: and listen to everything. And so if he had the

441
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: illegal deer meat or turkeys, and you better to get

442
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: him out. And I was like, really, Jen, I said,

443
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 1: can you shut up now? You know what I mean?

444
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: But yeah, of course she was just trying to do

445
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: me a favor. If you remember, RTI told us this

446
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: exact same thing from the law enforcement side. In the intro,

447
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: I said that Claude's son, Cast was four years old nine.

448
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 1: Here's the story. Claude loves to tell. And we're back

449
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: in the bowling alley with cass they all come down

450
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 1: on him, and so we're outside and I say it

451
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: was June warm out and my son had said, look

452
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: the one of wildlife officers and said, look at that

453
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 1: crawl dad hole right there, and uh, game works and

454
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 1: dies and I don't think that's a crawl dad hole.

455
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: So he was there when the wildlife officers were searching

456
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 1: your house and he was like three years old four

457
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: So so Cassie, Yeah, he said there's a there's a

458
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: crawl Dad in that hole there. Well said he, I don't.

459
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: He said, I don't think he has a crawl that

460
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 1: a whole bud and uh he said, oh yeah, here's

461
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: it is. He determined he's gonna show him. So he

462
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: went and got his mom's uh bucket, and he water

463
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: flowers in and you know, took a spout off, but

464
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: I was pulling water right into that hole. Took it

465
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: fill to clear up. Nothing coming out of it yet.

466
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: So he went back and fills it back up, poors

467
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 1: her in there again. Waits there pretty seeing his great crown.

468
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: He jumped up and down. So this is a technique

469
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: you knew would work. Get the crawdads. Yeah, which the

470
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: pond one too far? It was like, I mean, it's

471
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,959
Speaker 1: little ways actually, so you you remember when this happened,

472
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,239
Speaker 1: so you have memories of the law coming to your

473
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: house to get your dads going on. I thought it

474
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: was I thought it was a fun day. I don't know, yeah,

475
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: not on. These people were here and we're having a

476
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 1: good time. You let me teach you how to catch

477
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 1: your crowdad and big guy come here, man. I didn't

478
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: read game on Friends Friends. Yeah, now that's a good story.

479
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: They didn't teach those game boardings about crawdads. And hey,

480
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: not to digress, but Cass called it a crawdad and

481
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: not a crayfish, which indicates to me that Ohio might

482
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: actually be Southern Louisiana is exempt they call him crawfish

483
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: down there. And another thing, Claude called it spotlighting, not

484
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: jack lighting, because nobody from the South ever called spotlighting

485
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: a deer jacklighting. Let's talk about something that matters, and

486
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what matters is wives. Wives usually have

487
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,719
Speaker 1: a strong intuition, especially when it comes to their husband's friends.

488
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: If you want to talk about wit and instinct, a

489
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: wife is often like a lightning rod for this kind

490
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: of stuff, but oddly Misty has always really liked to

491
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: print reeves. Anyway, here's Claude talking about how he still

492
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: didn't really know why the law was at his house,

493
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: and even then, I still I'm I'm racking my brain,

494
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,959
Speaker 1: is like, I don't know what's going on. I mean,

495
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: no one's really told me anything. So I go outside

496
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: and they're at my house for hours. At that time,

497
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: I was remodeling my house. Uh, just doing a little remodelling.

498
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: I mean I have a money I was just trying

499
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: to make the place look a little nice. And what

500
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: it was so well, my wife had come outside when

501
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: I was sitting on uh I think had a bench

502
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: out there in front of my poor chair. I was

503
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: sitting on it. I was bummed, as you can imagine.

504
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: And they have your handcuffed or so they knew you

505
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: weren't gonna run off. No, I mean they had Yeah,

506
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: of course, I don't what they had before because I

507
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: didn't know. And they're searching your house. Oh yeah, they're

508
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: tearing apart I mean every inch of her. So my

509
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: wife's come out the front door and she whispered the

510
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: air and she said, Bob and donn I bet you.

511
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: And I looked at her like she was crazy, I said,

512
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: in the ho she said, I bet it is. She said,

513
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: you thought you guys were friends. She sniffed it out. Yeah.

514
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: But you know, she never did even what was going on.

515
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: She was always oh, because RT would call me quite

516
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: a bit, and I think if he was really being

517
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: honest for himself, he could tell you that that Bob

518
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: would call me a lot to say you want to

519
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: go out tonight, you know, and it would really take

520
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 1: my wife off. She was like, you know, Claide, you're

521
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: gonna get yourself in trouble. Wives. No, they just always know.

522
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: So I guess when that all happened. When I finally

523
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: did figure out, I think one of the officers he

524
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: hand me all my charges, all these papers. I'm like, huh,

525
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: then we're all mine, huh, because it was a bunch wit.

526
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: What did it? How did it read? It? Just on

527
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: the front of it, it was that um it was

528
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: all written up from the court saying all these charges

529
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: and I take pages and pages that man, it looked

530
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,959
Speaker 1: like a catalog, you know what I mean? And I said, uh.

531
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: I looked at him. I said them's all mine. He said,

532
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: them's all yours. And then the one officer asked me

533
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: if I knew Bob Thomas. So when he said that,

534
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: as I go, okay, that was my friend, I just

535
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: got me right there. This was a tough moment for Claude.

536
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: I don't know that I'll ever know, or at least

537
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: I hope I never do what it feels like for

538
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: someone you thought was your friend to actually not be.

539
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: And what makes this so wildly interesting is that RT,

540
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: even thirty years later, still has mixed feelings about it.

541
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: And we know he can't blame Ourt. He was just

542
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: doing his job. He was defending the law. I just

543
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: think it's interesting to look at it from the other side.

544
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: And this goes back to our original commentary on what

545
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: a weird human experience and experiment that undercover work is,

546
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: you know, And at that time when that happened, like say,

547
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: I'm early authorities and I just felt like someone kicked

548
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: me right in the teeth, I mean, kick the legs

549
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: right out from under me. So here this guy that

550
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: I thought out with my friend, that we did a

551
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: lot together, and I had a lot of fun together

552
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: and had a I mean, it's it's hard to say

553
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: a real friendship. But you said to me earlier that

554
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: you can't fake that kind of Oh, absolutely not, I mean,

555
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: and I feel like that's what ARTI told me when

556
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: I sat across from him as he said, Man, he said, Claude,

557
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: it was a good guy, he said. He said, any

558
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: other situation, we probably would have been really best friends. Yeah,

559
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: we had. We had a lot of fun together. I mean,

560
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: we really did. I mean, just like saying, there's just

561
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: some stuff you can't fake. I mean there's there are

562
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: times that I can remember leaving looking back or t

563
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: would you know, he'd be laughing so hard, you know,

564
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: teared becoming out of his eyes. I mean that that

565
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: was on a lot of different occasions. Getting back to

566
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: that question, Um, you know, Uh, I was so depressed

567
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: to think that that happened to me. You know, It's

568
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: like I couldn't get over for a long time to

569
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,719
Speaker 1: think that that he'd done that to me, And um,

570
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: I almost wanted revenge, you know. And uh, but you know,

571
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: he was doing his job. That's what he gets paid

572
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: to do. And that's how I look at it now,

573
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: looking back at it, I mean, he's here to do

574
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: his job. And he did his job. But for me,

575
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: it was just it was not real. I mean that

576
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: that I actually happened to me. I mean you you

577
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: can ask my wife and that them times. For uh

578
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: first two or three weeks, I didn't want to be here.

579
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 1: I didn't, you know, I just didn't. I was in

580
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: a real bad place. It was a dark time for

581
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 1: you told that it was, yeah, and then I just

582
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 1: didn't know if I could pull out of it. I mean,

583
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: it's for the audience that's listening right now. Unless you're there,

584
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 1: you know, you do. You can't have that feeling unless

585
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: you know, unless this actually happened to you. But with

586
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 1: that said, I brought it all myself. It wasn't like

587
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: anybody twist my arm to make me do what I done.

588
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: From the very beginning, I appreciated Claude's honesty about this

589
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: whole situation, but also how he takes full responsibility for it.

590
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: You'll never hear him blame anyone else, and that's rare.

591
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 1: Human nature, in its wild pursuit to justify its own action,

592
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: often relieves its burdened by shifting blame. But not Claude. Maxwell.

593
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: You remember me saying I wasn't the most popular guy

594
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: in Mcconnellsville after bringing Operation Redbug to the national stage

595
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: after thirty years of it being not there. I'm pretty

596
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: sure much of the town believes that this thing was

597
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: heavy handed, that in parts of the operation these guys

598
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 1: were entrapped. I'm just reporting what I heard on the

599
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: streets of Mcconnellsville, not from Claude. But even if it

600
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: was heavy handed, the operation was valuable. Let me cast

601
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: a metaphor into the river of your mind to the

602
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: caribou herd as a whole. The lone animal that gets

603
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,919
Speaker 1: eaten by the wolf is lost, but impacts them more

604
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: than the living. It's death changes the life of the

605
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: whole herd. They adapt, they re route, they become stronger.

606
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: The wolf makes the caribou strong. In this metaphor, the

607
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: undercover work is the wolf, and by picking some of

608
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: the stragglers off, in a sense, it purifies and strengthens

609
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: the whole herd, which the whole herd would be the

610
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: hunting community. Though you and me weren't suspects and Operation Redbud,

611
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: it has impacted our life. You know, if you're a

612
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: hunter the herd nose, are you with me? This type

613
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 1: of law enforcement is necessary for our system of wildlife

614
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: management to be successful. And we'll see that getting caught

615
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 1: by the wolf can change your life for the better. Isaac.

616
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 1: That was probably way too deep of a metaphor. I

617
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: don't know if people are going to get it. Oh

618
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: we're recording. Here's Claude. What were you actually charged for

619
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 1: and what was the punishment for it? And I know

620
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 1: you can't cite all seventy four wildlife violations. That's how

621
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: I mean. I hadn't sety four. I think most of

622
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 1: the uh finds, the citations I got out of seventy

623
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: four of them, you know a lot of them more,

624
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: you know, you might have been hunting without hunter orange

625
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 1: or maybe. Um I'm just trying to think of some

626
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 1: of the crazy charges that I had that they wouldn't

627
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: wasn't serious charges, Okay, I see, you know what I'm saying.

628
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: They were just they were trying to get you for

629
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: every single possible thing. Yeah, and I think they did

630
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: how many actual convictions of killing the legal game up

631
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: to seventy four? You know, I used to have that

632
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 1: big pamphlet. I think I throwed it away because I

633
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: wanted to worship every member away that of that day,

634
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 1: I think um I had got charged for killing seven

635
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 1: turkeys or maybe eight turkeys and seven or eight deer

636
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: in that eighteen months or whatever. It was okay that

637
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: we hung out. So did you go to jail? Well no,

638
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: I remember being incord so with fifteen wildlife officers they're coming,

639
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: or fifteen vehicles. They didn't handcuff you and take you

640
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 1: to jail. No, no, Now, if I had in cooperated, yes,

641
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: I've been on my way to jail. So it's mainly fines.

642
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: And then they they revoked your Ohio hunting license for life. Yes, yeah,

643
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: how much infines? Did you can? I ask you that?

644
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: How much infines? The jeff to play eleven thousand? Yeah?

645
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: Actually the crazy as this is when I had hired

646
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: this turney out of Lancashire, Ohio. But anyhow, he come

647
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 1: down representative me, Well, thanks for We're just going to

648
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 1: do a plea bargain. Okay, I'm guilty of this many charges,

649
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 1: I think I end up. I think I was guilty

650
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: of like seventy of them probably, I mean I was

651
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: guilty of all of them. Everything that that ort honestly

652
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: got me for. I was guilty of I mean even

653
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: back then that was your position, just like I'm guilty.

654
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna yeah, basically basically because my attorney had

655
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: looked over the films and things. He said, well, they

656
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: really got you, Claude. And then I said, I know that.

657
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 1: So all we can do right now is a good

658
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: court and make the best of it. I'm trying to

659
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: think they gave me this big fine and he turns

660
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: to me in the worstiper here he said, it's gonna

661
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: do now. He's gonna do give me, uh six months

662
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 1: in jail and eleven thousand on her fine. So he

663
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: whispered down the air and he said that's not too bad, Claude.

664
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: He said, if I as you, I take that play.

665
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: I said, I'm not doing six months in jail. He

666
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: looks at me, said really, I said yeah really. So

667
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: he gets up and says he makes a play to

668
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: the court, you know, and said, you know, Claude's got

669
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: two little kids. Can show some land and see. So

670
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: the judge thinks about it for a second and kinds

671
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 1: back and said, yeah, he's gonna give me six months

672
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 1: house arrest. So I gotta wear a leg bracelet for

673
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: six months. Was that was that a stiff enough penalty.

674
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 1: Do you think, like if you were just looking at

675
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: this from the outside, you knew what you were doing,

676
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: and like in your life, what would have Because I mean,

677
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: all these punitive penalties that the court systems would enact

678
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 1: would ultimately be designed to get people on the right track.

679
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: I mean, say whatever somebody want. I mean, was it

680
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: stiff enough? Was it too stiff? What do you think

681
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 1: looking back? I get yeah, I thought it was almost

682
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: two stiffs. And let me tell you why, because I

683
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: wasn't making no money whatsoever then, I mean, eleven might

684
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: as well have been a hundred thousand. Yeah, of course.

685
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: I mean I was like, I was like, how in

686
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: the world am I ever gonna pay eleven thousand? Allar

687
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,479
Speaker 1: fune off? I mean, I don't have that kind of money.

688
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't. Then. Was that was that helpful

689
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 1: to you in the process of being reformed? I think

690
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: it was. I mean, because you know, and I'm not

691
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: saying this to talk specifically about you, but people all

692
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: over the country talk about how wildlife violators get off

693
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: too easy. Yeah, I mean, really like some of this

694
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: stuff going on because it's not narcotics or or some

695
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: kind of abuse, you know, like human abuse or violence

696
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 1: or when when these things go to court, a lot

697
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: of time judges have compassion on this guy or leniency

698
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: and then but in the wildlife space, it can upset

699
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: people because because you know, as a culture, we value

700
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 1: wildlife and we value being able to go and hunt,

701
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: and we have this thing in North America that's really

702
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: unique to the world and that guys like me and

703
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: you can go hunt and hunt turkey, and I mean,

704
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 1: like it's unusual. What do you think about that? I mean,

705
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: do you do you think judges should do what they

706
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: did to you? Yeah? I mean, you know, listen, I

707
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 1: probably had everything that come to me as you know

708
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 1: what I got I had coming to me. I probably

709
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 1: need to stop. I mean, I I want to say

710
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: out of control I was. It was not right by

711
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: no means, and so what I got come to me

712
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 1: and with ur t uh he you know, he did

713
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: his job him, don did. I'm not uh saying that,

714
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: uh that he should have done way done, because that's

715
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: what he was able to do. On this side, it's

716
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 1: easy to say the poachers got what they deserved and

717
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,720
Speaker 1: leave feeling good about the steaming hot plate of justice.

718
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: They got served, which is an entirely justifiable position that

719
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 1: most of us have almost all the time. And I'm

720
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 1: not trying to make us soft on criminals and act

721
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: like they're the victims. But what I am saying is

722
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: that every situation has two sides worth thinking about. I

723
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 1: want to ask Claude about re entering his life after

724
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: the conviction. You just you felt the just kind of

725
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 1: the social shame of what happened. I mean, you were

726
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: embarrassed by it. You were like, what were the what

727
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: were the feelings going on? Yeah, I mean I was

728
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 1: um as people like say, the people that didn't know me,

729
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 1: It was about to find out the things that I've done.

730
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 1: So you know, majority of these people that I worked

731
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 1: around had no clue you know, spotlighting turkey hunting and whatever.

732
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: But you know, even even then when I was doing it,

733
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: I never really I never even thought it was that

734
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: big a deal. I guess now today, Yeah, I mean,

735
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 1: looking back, it was a big deal. I mean, you're

736
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 1: breaking a law. I mean that's just it's not uh,

737
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: it's not a sportsman thing to do. So yeah, it was.

738
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: It was really hard going back to work. I didn't

739
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 1: want to go back to work. I wanted quick because

740
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: I didn't want to see nobody. I didn't want to

741
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: be around nobody because I knew I knew what was

742
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: gonna take place. I mean, it never ended for months,

743
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: people wanting to know the story, and people criticizing me

744
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: for who for what I've done, And then there's people

745
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: that you know that stood beside me too. You know,

746
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 1: you gotta have a little bit of support or something

747
00:43:57,920 --> 00:43:59,879
Speaker 1: like that happened to you. It was a bad time,

748
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: so talented was Uh, how did you recover from it?

749
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: I mean, because really, your story, it's so it's so

750
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: unusual that you would be in that position when you're

751
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: thirty and then now you're sixty, and like I said,

752
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: I mean, I I feel like I'm sitting across from

753
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: an intact man. I mean not just because of your

754
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: business success, That's not what I'm talking about, just your

755
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: family's intact. And I don't know your son's well, but

756
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 1: I've met one of them and I just just yeah,

757
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 1: it's unusual. Great kid, I mean, he's Uh. I honestly

758
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: think if I hadn't had a family, then my wife

759
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: was royal support of me, and she always has been

760
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 1: probably the greatest woman, I know, um, but yeah, so

761
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 1: having a having a big family like I had just

762
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 1: my brothers and sisters and and just from my family.

763
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 1: And then not to mention Heidi's family, I mean, all

764
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: of her family were super close. You know, we're they

765
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: all supported you through this. Yeah, they didn't know disown,

766
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 1: you know. I remember her dad telling me one day.

767
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:05,799
Speaker 1: I think it might have been two or three days

768
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 1: after it all come down, but I remember being on

769
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: a couch. I don't think I got off the couch

770
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: for a week. I mean, I was that bummed. I mean,

771
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: I just didn't want to talk to nobody. Well, he'd

772
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 1: come out and I had just told his son the

773
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: story the other day, but I said, I can remember

774
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 1: being really depressed. So the good guy that her dad is,

775
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: he tried to, uh make make things better for me.

776
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 1: He said, well, Claude, he said, you know you're only

777
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: up from here. You're gonna go up from here. He said,

778
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 1: you just you gotta pull yourself together and uh and

779
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: make the best of it. He said, we all love you.

780
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 1: He said, you know, just you made a few mistakes,

781
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,760
Speaker 1: and ain't we all. I might said yeah or whatever,

782
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: but I didn't want to talk to nobody. And as

783
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 1: you can imagine, how many times my phone would ring

784
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: a day, people wanting to know or I just I

785
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: just never took a phone call. I just but I

786
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 1: knew at some point, you know, I'm gonna have to

787
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,800
Speaker 1: get back to work. And uh, if it wasn't for

788
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 1: the fact of having a wife and a four year

789
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: old old son, and then uh, my daughter Adrian, she

790
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 1: was just born, I probably wouldn't have went back to work.

791
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: I probably would have quit and started a new life somewhere,

792
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,800
Speaker 1: or maybe wouldn't even made it that far, you know

793
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: what I mean, Because I was not in a good place. Then,

794
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: by every indicator possible to gauge a human, Claude was

795
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: at the very bottom. But as painful as it is

796
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: to be there, Claude's father in law was right. The

797
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 1: only place to go is up, and being at the

798
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: bottom is often necessary to get people going in the

799
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 1: right direction. The bottom isn't always bad. Part of Claude's

800
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: conviction was a lifetime suspension of his Ohio hunting license.

801
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: That's a hard slap for a man whose blood runs

802
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: thick with the love of wild places and beasts, even

803
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 1: being someone who was abusing the law. He was fueled

804
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: by the same mysterious draft that has caught so many

805
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: of us. After seven years, Claude was advised to go

806
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 1: to the county judge and ask for the punishment to

807
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: be revisited, and to his surprise, the paperwork on the

808
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 1: revocation of his license was never completed and he was

809
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 1: actually eligible to buy his Ohio license anyhow. He um,

810
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: he told me, I could, you're good to go get

811
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: your license, which I don't think at the time or

812
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 1: local game warden was very happy about that. But from

813
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 1: that day on, I did things right. I gotta get

814
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: myself on the right track here, and you know, even

815
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: taking my son hunting and stuff. You know, I took

816
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 1: my son hunting a lot. I tried to teach him

817
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: right and and he does things right, you know what

818
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 1: I mean, He's he's a good kid. But anyhow, yeah,

819
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 1: that's a that's a big transition. I mean, you you

820
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: kind of make it sound simple, and I realized it's

821
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 1: it wasn't really simple. Let's be honest. I mean, even

822
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 1: though what I did get my license back, I said, man,

823
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 1: I sure miss him days of just going out there

824
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 1: having fun. But I knew better you know, and I

825
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: never did. I don't. I never went out early turkey hunting,

826
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: early deer hunting, nothing squirrel hunting. I mean, from that

827
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: day on, I just you know, I want by the rules.

828
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: That's just how you know. If it's one turkey season,

829
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: that's what I killed, one turkey, And if it's one

830
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: deer's one deer. I just it's just looking back of

831
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: how I was then. I mean, I was a little

832
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: one I'll control. But it feels good to be on

833
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: the right path. I mean, it's way better, you know,

834
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 1: it's uh, it makes you a better person. Yeah, it

835
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: really does. Well, it sounds like there was it was

836
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: a it was a broader and I'm speculating, but I'm

837
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 1: speculating off pretty hard evidence that I have of not

838
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 1: knowing you well, but but seeing what you've done inside

839
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: this community and just talking me to hear face to face.

840
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: Is that. I mean, it sounds like your life took

841
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,359
Speaker 1: a turn for the for the better and a whole

842
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 1: lot of places. I mean, because somebody that's partying and

843
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,320
Speaker 1: wild and disregarding game laws is not going to be

844
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: able to do what you've done because you, I mean,

845
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 1: you have a very successful outdoor store here in Mcconnell'sville.

846
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,879
Speaker 1: You opened up this bowling alley. You've got multiple I mean,

847
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 1: you're a successful guy, you're fan and when I meet

848
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: your family, your family is intact, which in today's world

849
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: is a big deal. Sure. I mean to have kids

850
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: that respect you and have a great family and very fortunate.

851
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like you A lot changed probably

852
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: from those days, Am I right? Oh yeah, it has.

853
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 1: I mean it's uh a lot has changed, uh, which

854
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: is really hard to believe that even looking back that

855
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,439
Speaker 1: all my life, you know how much things have changed

856
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 1: from me. I mean, I think when you do right

857
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: people people will notice it. We do a lot for

858
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 1: our community. I mean we really do. I say no

859
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,919
Speaker 1: to nobody, you know what I mean, if someone comes

860
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: in wants a donation for whatever it might be. You know,

861
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 1: it might be a family member sick, or we just

862
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: help out. We do. I mean, it's just what we are.

863
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: But quite a far cry from what I used to be.

864
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: Not that I never looked at myself as a horrible person,

865
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 1: you know what I mean when I was when I

866
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 1: was growing up. I mean I had a great family,

867
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 1: when I had eight brothers and sisters. You know, and

868
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: where are the birth order next to the youngest. Yeah, yeah,

869
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 1: my mom, dad, with great people, all my brothers and sisters,

870
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: I mean, and we're all tightened it. I mean we're

871
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: of course, none of my family looked down on me

872
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 1: from what I had done. I mean because you know, blood,

873
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,919
Speaker 1: stick and water, but you know, they realized I've done wrong.

874
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 1: I was in a good place in my world at

875
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: that time, especially after six when the Thursday of June

876
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 1: sixteenth and ninety six, a lot of good day. Yeah,

877
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: that's when all the O, D and R is at

878
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: my house. It was almost like unbelievable, man, you've gained

879
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: my respect, and that you were willing to talk to me.

880
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I I think it takes a lot of

881
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: guts for you just to even just talk about it,

882
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 1: which you didn't ask for anybody to bring this all

883
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 1: back up, you know, And you didn't ask for me

884
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 1: to come up here and talk to you. I asked, Yeah,

885
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 1: I was listening to your podcast, but r T And

886
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:23,399
Speaker 1: then that's uh. And that's when so somebody somebody sent

887
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,320
Speaker 1: you the Burgaries podcast and said, Claude, you got you

888
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,799
Speaker 1: gotta listen to this. Yes, what did you think when

889
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 1: you heard us talking about Operation Redbud. Wow, I was

890
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 1: kinda I was, I was, I was set back, and

891
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,879
Speaker 1: then I ain't gonna lie. I was like, uh dang,

892
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 1: I said, Uh. Then that many years and they're still

893
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: talking about me and uh. And I thought we relieved

894
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 1: when we bleeped your name out, I was, I mean, yeah,

895
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,399
Speaker 1: I mean because there would really know needing using my name.

896
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 1: I guess yeah. I think everybody knows anything about Operation Redbudd,

897
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: knows who who was involved regionally, and that's what That's

898
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: what I found out. Again, this this new new stuff

899
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 1: to me. Just in the last couple of months. I

900
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,760
Speaker 1: would have never heard of this. I think regionally, Operation

901
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: Red Butt is real well known. Nationally maybe not. And

902
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 1: and I've shared this with you privately, is that when

903
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 1: I did this, like, I never really thought about the

904
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 1: repercussions of it. And that's part of the reason I

905
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 1: wanted to come to you today, because I mean, you're

906
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: the guy we were talking about. Yeah, we bleeped out

907
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 1: your name, but still part of this part of the

908
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: story was you. And then it never occurred to me

909
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 1: that because it really we were trying to highlight like

910
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 1: wildlife agents and law enforcement and and so for that,

911
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: I guess I in a way apologized to Uh. I mean,

912
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 1: I'm not upset that I did the story. I mean,

913
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:52,919
Speaker 1: I'm not, but but it probably brought some something into

914
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: your life that you weren't asking for, but people coming

915
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 1: and saying, hey, look at this. I was a little, uh,

916
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 1: was a little heasitant to do this podcast today. I mean,

917
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 1: my son's want to said, now, Dad, you need to

918
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,320
Speaker 1: do it. You need to just do it. He's I

919
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,439
Speaker 1: think we'll do you some good. And uh, even last

920
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 1: night I didn't. I I was kind of up and

921
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 1: down all and I think about and uh, maybe what

922
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,919
Speaker 1: to say or or even how to say it, I guess,

923
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 1: but I don't know. I honestly, I think it's made

924
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 1: me a better person. I mean, not this podcast, but

925
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: just a better person than what I used to be.

926
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 1: I mean, heck, who knows if if it hadn't happened

927
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: to me thirty years ago, who knows where I'd be.

928
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: It was almost unbelievable. Claude said, you get the feeling

929
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,240
Speaker 1: that it's hard for him to look back and believe

930
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 1: that this actually happened, especially when you look at how

931
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:52,840
Speaker 1: successful his life has been. Since them. This story is

932
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 1: about the stereotypes that we all have at different times,

933
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 1: about people that are sometimes just wrong. It's a story

934
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: of how people can change and be different. It's a

935
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 1: story about how some actions don't always lead to the

936
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: outcomes we think they will. But at its core, at

937
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 1: a more philosophical level, I think this story is about

938
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: repentance and forgiveness. These words are fundamental to the human experience.

939
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:28,360
Speaker 1: Repentance is ultimately taking responsibility for your actions and making

940
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 1: changes so the bad stuff doesn't happen again. Forgiveness is

941
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: in essence forgetting an offense. Humans crave these things. We

942
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:42,320
Speaker 1: want people who have done wrong to be sorry, and

943
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 1: punitive justice can be part of that repentance, And when

944
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 1: we do wrong, we deeply want people to forgive us.

945
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 1: When I was in my early twenties, I had a

946
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: moment of clarity of what forgiveness was. I had had

947
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 1: a wretched nightmare of those where you've done something terrible

948
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 1: and unbearable. Stress is caving in around you, and the

949
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 1: dream I had stolen a car and was running from

950
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 1: the police. I deeply regretted what I had done, but

951
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 1: it was too late. I couldn't undo it. The tension

952
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 1: of the dream grew to such height that my resting

953
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:24,320
Speaker 1: state was unable to contain it, and I awoke in

954
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 1: a burst of consciousness. The feelings of regret and consequence

955
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 1: lingered into reality, until after a few moments of looking around,

956
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 1: I realized that I was in my bed. I actually

957
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 1: hadn't stolen the car. It was only a dream. A

958
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 1: gush of relief poured over me like cool water. I

959
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: felt as if my life had restarted. In that moment.

960
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 1: I thought walked across my mind that I would never forget,

961
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 1: and the thought was, this is what true forgiveness is like.

962
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: It's like a dream that never actually happened. It was powerful,

963
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 1: and the implication of that was what if I could

964
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,840
Speaker 1: deliver that kind of forgiveness to the people in my

965
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 1: life who had done me wrong? And what if I

966
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 1: could receive that kind of forgiveness for the stuff and

967
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 1: the people that I had wronged. As humans, we have

968
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 1: a powerful tool at our disposal that apes and mules

969
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 1: don't have the luxurious option of dispensing or receiving, And

970
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 1: that tool is a choice that we have to extend

971
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 1: a functional forgiveness to others and to receive forgiveness. I

972
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: think our society could use a refresher on how to

973
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:47,279
Speaker 1: use the powerful human tools of repentance and forgiveness rather

974
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 1: than living with bitterness and shame. That's not being soft

975
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 1: on crime, that's being strong on cure. I'd like to

976
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:03,840
Speaker 1: extend a genue wine bear Grease hat tip to Claude

977
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 1: Maxwell and to RT Steward. It took a lot of

978
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 1: guts for both of these guys to tell their story.

979
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough for listening to Bear Grease.

980
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: We're putting all we have into these stories, and I

981
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: deeply value every person that I have the opportunity to interview,

982
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 1: and I deeply value every one of you guys that

983
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 1: engage so deeply into these stories. I thank you for

984
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 1: your support of our podcast, and you can help us

985
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 1: by sharing this podcast with your family and friends and

986
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 1: leaving us a review on iTunes. And you can follow

987
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 1: me on social media at Clay Underscore Nucomb. Instagram is

988
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 1: my main platform, but I'm also on the TikTok with

989
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 1: all the kids, hipsters and data snatchers. Maybe they'll snatch

990
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 1: you up this story. Who knows. Have a great week,

991
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 1: and I look forward to discussing this story with everybody

992
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 1: on next week's Render. Whoa, who whoo, whoam