WEBVTT - Cheating in the Name of 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.680 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:14.120 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:17.320 My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Julie Douglas. Julie, 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:19.160 you know, I used to be a school teacher for 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:22.920 a very short period of time, right after I graduated 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:25.520 with my multi useful degree in creative writing. Did you 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:28.240 have a tweet jacket? I did not, Like I got 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:30.600 some chords later on that at the time, I didn't. 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:32.400 I did not have much in the way of scholarly 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:34.959 ad dress close, you know. But yeah, I taught high 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:37.440 school English for a little bit and I had some 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:42.920 wonderful um kids that we're not necessarily all that inspired, 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:45.600 but you know, I went in there and tried the 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:48.440 best I could, and of course I ended up encountering 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:50.839 some cheating because there were number of feople in these 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:53.760 classes that really did not care. And it was the 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:57.280 challenge and probably a challenge you know, I ultimately was 0:00:57.320 --> 0:00:59.720 not up to, was to try and get them interested 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:04.000 about English, about about learning in any way, shape or form, 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.000 and and ultimately some of these kids just weren't gonna 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:10.839 listen to any of it. They'd rather, you know, do nothing. 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.919 They'd rather pass notes. But but then you would encounter 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:18.120 kids that are equally less interested in achieving in the 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:20.920 class until it comes down to the final minute, until 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.000 the test paper is on the desk, and then they 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:27.360 want to succeed, and then they become Macavellian freaks, right, 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:29.640 and then they start pulling out the cheating techniques. And 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:31.800 it always like it would it would blow my mind 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:33.880 a little bit when someone puts a tremendous amount of 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:36.640 effort into some notes that they're gonna you know, hide 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:38.920 in their sleeve or there or there, you know, so 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.720 you couldn't get them to take notes during class, but 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:44.440 they'll copy like whole pages of text book onto the 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:46.800 corner of their desk and pencil so they can erase 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:50.800 it with like a licked palm. If you come around, man, 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:54.120 you saw the dark side cheating, scholastic cheating. Well yeah, 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:56.680 and it's um, it's interesting. Uh. And then that's why 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:58.760 we're talking about it in this podcast. And we are 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:02.920 talking pretty much academic cheating, scholastic cheating. Uh that we're 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:04.960 not going to get into any kind of saucy silp 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:07.680 opera stuff. You're not com boots cheating. Yeah, and I mean, 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:10.000 of course everybody can relate to this, right, because who 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:12.600 who among us has not cheated at least once in 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.840 some fashion. Right, Yeah, if you haven't broken the rules, 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:18.520 I'm willing to bet you've bent them at some point, uh, 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:20.400 in your favor. I mean, it's just what we do. 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:22.880 It's it's it's really a part of nature. Um. I 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.280 mean that sounds like I'm defending it. You know. It's 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:27.120 like I wouldn't cheating on the test man. It's a 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:29.520 part of nature. But but it's just part of the 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.320 evolution and maintenance of cooperative behavior, right. Right. If you're 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:34.400 gonna live in a society, you're gonna have to adhere 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:36.880 to the social contract, which says please don't cheat because 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.440 you know, otherwise the rest of us get shafted, right, 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:42.000 or at least that's sort of the bare bones basics 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:43.639 behind it. Yeah, it's one of those kind of a 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:45.960 balance though. Right. It's like, in many cases we can't 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.800 all cheat because the system will collapse. But some people 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:52.040 are gonna be willing to take the risks to reap 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:56.120 the rewards of cheating. Right, And Um, if you're out 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:58.120 there and you think, no, I'm not a cheater, it's 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:00.919 just that's not me. Um. I I want to say, 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.360 what if what if we told you that your beliefs 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:06.720 and values were not actually fixed and the moral code 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:09.160 that you carry with you and to find yourself by 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.280 is is actually kind of like a flotilla on the 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:14.560 sea of circumstances around you. Because that's what we're going 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:16.480 to talk about today, and this is just kind of 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:19.320 a slippery slope. Um, what we think about in terms 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.160 of our morality can sometimes be very different from the 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:26.400 actual reality of our morality. That I'm not gonna start 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:30.000 rapping to our Yeah, so let's hit some stats here. UM, 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:32.239 I have some interesting numbers here, and this is first. 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:33.760 Let's start with the US. We have a number of 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.840 listeners in the US. Uh. We are in the U S. 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:38.960 And we attended school in the US, So these numbers 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.840 apply to all of all of US. UM. On most 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:45.040 US college campuses, over seventy five of the students admit 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:50.640 to some cheating. Um. You look at Internet plagiarism. Uh, 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:55.839 you see about ten percent in in two thousand one. 0:03:56.600 --> 0:04:00.160 Majority of these U S students think that cheating is 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:04.080 quote not a serious issue, and you see cheating rise 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:08.280 from eleven percent in nineteen sixty three to in nineteen 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:12.680 And this is based on self reported stats from state universe, Right, 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:15.400 which is interesting that it's risen that much. But but 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.080 then look at you take a look at US high schools. 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:23.960 Seventy series are into serious test cheating, like serious. Um, 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:27.359 your anecdote is corroborated. Yes, seventy two are into cheating 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:32.440 on written assignments, and over half are are generally into 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:35.680 some level of plagiarism on written assignments using the Internet. Yeah, 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:38.440 and um, I do have to look at the Internet 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:40.600 plagiarism and I've to say that ten percent in nineteen 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:46.440 early adopters. Yeah, my jurism online obviously in two thousand 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:48.880 and one is because everybody's using the internet. Then, right, 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:51.280 it's interesting to look at this jump you see from 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:53.720 high school to college and and there their number of 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:57.159 reasons you can lay out for that. But to me anyway, 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.200 when I when I look back at my own scholastic career, 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:03.320 my own academic high school was more about like us 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:06.760 versus them, about like like school and when you're kids 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:09.720 versus the teachers. Yeah, yeah, like when you're when you're 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:13.240 in high school, unless you're a really serious student, which 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.040 for the most part I was not. School feels like 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:17.600 this thing that is forced upon you. It is the 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.560 thing done to you. It happens to you. Quit doing 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.720 school to me, world, because I have I have games 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:26.080 of magic I need to play. Uh you know that 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:29.120 that kind of thing. Because I was an exciting kid, well, 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:31.200 and if you're a kid like I was, I was 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:33.880 offended by a lot of different aspects of school, like 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:36.160 particularly that I had to ask to go to use 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:39.160 the restroom. I thought that was insane. I can see that. 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.480 I can imagine you're being very stubborn about that, right, 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:45.119 Why would I just I mean, can you not trust 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:47.280 me to go and empty my blotters on my own? 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:49.520 But for a lot of kids too, it's just about 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:53.560 surviving school, right. So Unfortunately, at least here in the US, 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:57.960 we don't have a great um sort of system in 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:00.440 place where you really are trying to kid they're getting 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:02.279 engage and it's more of a hey, we're all in 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:04.520 this together. Like you said, this is a very US 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.440 versus them. Yeah, it says versus them. Your I mean, 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:09.360 your hormones are doing all sorts of crazy stuff. You 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:12.160 you look at the world differently your immediate concerns are 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:14.200 going to be or in many cases are more related 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:20.120 to your interpersonal conflicts, um or or just having fun. Right. Uh. 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:23.160 And then in college, hopefully this shifts over more towards 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:25.400 school is not something done to me, but school is 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:27.960 something that I need to use or I am using 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:31.400 to better myself to gain some foothold in the world. 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:33.960 And uh and and so you have a little more 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:36.120 investment into it. Right, You're making some choices on your 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.640 own to about what sort of path you want to pursue. Right, 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:41.000 and then of course being into it. The subject is 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.360 another big thing, because I mean I remember back in 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.760 high school there were subjects I was really into, Like 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.320 I wasn't about to cheat on or to think about 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:51.240 cheating even on, like I say, an ancient history class 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:52.800 that I had, because I just love that thing. It 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.040 was just like all these you know, it's like ancient 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:58.280 battle after ancient battle and kings and rebellions. I mean 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.560 that stuff was awesome, or you know, or or literature 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.000 in English. I was always really into that. You know. 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:06.760 The temptation would arise in things like like well, I 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.840 guess it would arise in math class, but it quickly 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:13.320 becomes obvious that you can't really even think about cheating 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:15.080 in math because you have to solve this problem they 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:16.880 give you. And how are you going to do that? Well, 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:19.480 you should look over to whoever is sitting on your 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.360 right or left. See. But the thing, the thing was 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:24.320 that was always too risky for me, Like I was 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:27.360 not willing to take the risk of visually looking over 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:29.760 at somebody's desk and copying off of them. Okay, well, 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:31.840 we're going to talk about the psychological factors in a 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:36.320 moment and and this sort of risk assessment. But we 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:38.480 have established that we in the United States are a 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.200 bunch of cheaters. Yeah, what's the rest of the world doing? Yeah? Yeah, 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:44.280 for instance, what's Russia doing well? Russia? Apparently they are 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:47.880 really into sharing notes talking in classes. Okay, it's not 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.840 even hidden. The goal is to bring the whole class 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:55.600 level up, and bribes are routinely expected for grades. Wow, 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:59.720 so a teacher would expects bribe to come in I 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:03.640 guess us. Okay, that's that's interesting. I mean, I I 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:05.560 don't know if I was ever offered a bribe per 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:08.080 se when I was teaching, but I did have this 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.040 one situation where there's this girl that's just super failing English, 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:13.240 like if she couldn't have tried harder to fail it. 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:15.160 And I and I gave these I wanted these kids 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:16.880 to pass. I was giving them all sorts of opportunities 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.280 for extra credit. It's like, here, read this short story 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.760 and you'll get extra credit. You know, write something about it, 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:23.680 Do this and you'll get some extra credit, and will 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.800 let me help you pass this class. And of course 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:28.960 it's the last minute, and like this girl comes up 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:31.480 and it's like creepily saying like I'll do anything to pass, 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:33.439 blah blah blah. And then it was just like the 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:38.440 get away, go read a short story. But I I 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:41.920 also remember encountering someone This is not during my teaching, 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:43.720 this was in school, but I remember encounting somebody who 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:46.520 had been to school in Germany, and they had told 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:49.959 me that in their experience in Germany, cheating was more 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:54.040 expected and from the teachers, so like you were expected 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.319 to try and cheat. But then the teachers knew this, 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:59.240 so they're just making everything harder. Now. I don't know, 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:01.280 and we'll get into this a little bit too. I 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:04.240 don't know to what extent that person was rationalizing their 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.800 own individual cheating philosophy. If they were like saying, well, 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:10.719 they know we're cheating, they're just making it harder on me. 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:12.800 And in fact, I don't cheat to keep up, I'm 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:16.320 doing myself a disservice. Yeah. Yeah, But some of the 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:18.160 stats we were looking at, though, they said that in 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.240 German schools, the sharing of answers is common. Uh, and 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:23.480 it's understood that it is very much a student versus 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:27.000 teacher situation, and so if you didn't share, it would 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.600 be a social taboo exactly right. You'd be sort of 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:33.520 forced to um or you'd be shunned. And Mexico sharing 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:37.000 is common, but students will deny this. Okay, that was 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:41.280 that sort of interesting. Professors do not expect citations and papers. 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:44.480 I thought that was amazing because you could just make 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:48.760 up anything. Really, um, you know, that sounded reasonable. Yeah, 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:50.880 I mean maybe they're just more until like, hey, at 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:52.600 least they're trying. I don't know if you can get 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:59.800 crazy with citation recommendation teachers, but Costa Rica, this is interesting. Teamwork. 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.120 The rule in personal and academic life, including supporting those 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:05.600 who do not contribute to the group. We've all been 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:07.640 in those situations where you have like a group assignment, 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:10.439 and there's on one end of the spectrum as a 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:13.120 person who's like super gung ho their leaders there, this 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:15.160 is what we're gonna do, this is when we're gonna 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:17.280 meet to do it. This is the work that's involved. 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.360 And then you have that one person that's just riding coattails. Yeah. 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:22.679 That there's the ne'er do well. Yeah, and everybody gets max. 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:25.600 They're like, you're not doing anything, so but of course 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.440 you have to go ahead and ban together because your 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:30.160 great is going to be effective by this person, which 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:32.400 makes sense. I mean, I having having been to Costa Rica, 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:35.360 it's uh. And I'm not pretending to have any deep, 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:38.280 like a deep cultural understanding of the country because I 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:40.080 want a vacation there for a week. But you do 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:43.800 get a huge sense of togetherness in this idea of yeah, 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:46.040 like let's let's pull this country up by our bootstraps. 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.120 Let's let's start carrying about the environment. Let's uh, you know, 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:51.560 let's get some tourist dollars in here. Let's let's let's 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:55.880 do it, so sell these monkeys. I was not I 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:57.719 did not have an opportunity to buy a monkey when 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.680 I was there. I mean, like the idea of the monkeys. Ok, 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:04.959 it's like, yes, let's save the environment, let's sell monchy. 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:08.160 I didn't come home with a lemur And um, China 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:11.480 and I mean there's bullets here. There's all sorts of 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:14.520 crazy things going on in China in terms of cheating. UM, 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:18.000 students actually openly admit that cheating is a way of life. 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.400 Intellectual property is a foreign concept. And of course we've 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.719 seen this before. And some of the products that um, 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.439 you know DVDs that you can get over there for 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:30.400 fifty cents a dollar whatever, they're kind of ripped off. 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:33.160 In fact, didn't you tell me that there was a 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:38.800 fake iPod store a few months back? But even more 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.240 amazing was I think it was the fifth Harry Potter book. 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:45.000 I could be wrong in this Potter fans, but uh, 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.800 you know, everyone was eagerly anticipating the next Harry Potter 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:49.679 book and there was then it was out in China 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:52.400 with this crazy cover that had like the dragon from 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:57.480 Sleeping Beauty on it, and it was like, wow, I 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:00.320 never found out exactly like what it consists it off, 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:02.600 did someone like write a big fan fiction book? Did 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:04.640 they just like download a bunch of fan fictions from 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:06.719 the internet, but I don't know portions of it. And 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.040 rewrote it. I mean, you gotta put in some considerable work, 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:11.520 and they're even to fill a book that size up nothing. 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:14.600 The big value for for students in China is saving 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:17.679 face and maintaining group harmony. Cheating is seen as a 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:20.360 skill everyone should develop to succeed in the world. World 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:24.440 is corrupt, so this is like the basic thought process here. Yeah, 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:26.920 thus is the world? So yeah, you know which is 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:28.800 I mean, some people would say, well, that's a very 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.840 realistic point of view right there, um Burma. Students learn 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:35.800 um that it's sort of a task that's shared by 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:38.280 a group, so it's not seen as cheating again, so 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:42.440 much um. And the worst accusation in this culture is selfishness, 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.360 pursuing your own goals at the expense of others. So 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:47.640 we've talked about some of the stats around cheating. We 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.079 discussed sort of our own personal takes on school, you know, 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:52.920 at an early age, and then how it changed depending 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:54.600 on if we were into a subject where we were 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.360 in college. And so it only makes sense not to 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.120 discuss like why is a was a culture? Why don't 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:02.760 we why do we cheat? Why don't we attempt to 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:06.120 work the system in our favor and uh and get 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:09.320 by without putting Yeah, what's going on in our minds 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:11.559 that allows us to do this, um, even if it's 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:13.920 sort of outside of what we think is our own 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.840 moral code. And there are a couple of different topics 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:21.080 we can cover here. One is moral disengagement and another 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:26.040 is motivated forgetting and uh. Moral disengagement is described by 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:30.079 psychologist Albert van Dura to UM, which is like the 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.280 process by which people pervert their own sense of self 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:36.240 and their sense of right and wrong in order to 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:39.839 give into a questionable temptation. Okay, so you you become 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:43.800 morally disengaged from what you're doing, and we've seen this 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:47.839 in many instances. Um. And then motivated forgetting. We'll talk 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:50.000 about that in a moment. Dr Lisa Shoe at Harvard 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:52.840 University conducted a study in which one group of students 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:55.199 were left to their own devices to report their score 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:59.600 while another another groups was calculated by a proctor. And 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:04.400 when students were given more morally permissive environment, it was 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:06.640 found that they were more apt to cheat, which, okay, 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:09.959 that's no surprise, right. A sticking point is that before 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:12.480 and after they were given a questionnaire to to gauge 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:17.320 their degree of moral engagement. Okay, so the questionnaire would 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:18.520 sort of ask them like, you know, how do you 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.680 feel about you know, these certain circumstances and your own 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:23.960 morality and so on and so forth, And she found 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.600 that the students who cheated exhibited greater amounts of moral disengagement, 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:30.560 pointing to the fact that doing the deed, actually cheating, 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:33.520 can lead to sort of like a tangle web we 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.480 weave when once we begin to deceive. Right, So, once 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:38.680 you do it, you're more apt to continue doing it, 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:42.120 at least in some sort of short term, right, I mean, 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:44.920 are we talking about hours? Are we talking about months? 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.600 That's not exactly defined. But you know, once you cross 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:51.080 that line, it's a lot easier to do it again, right, 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:53.880 And it's frequently pointed out that it's a lot of 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:57.800 it comes down to risk calculation and rip at evaluation. 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:00.400 What am I to gain by cheating? What are my 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:03.680 chances of being caught? And then if I'm caught, what 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:07.800 are the consequences? Like is uh is Mr Lamb the 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.560 English teacher? Is he just gonna fail me on the test? Well? 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:12.560 I was going to fail anyway, Right, so I might 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.120 as well cheat. There's nothing wrong with that. What's am 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:16.920 I get? How much trouble am I going to get in? 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:18.720 Am I going to be you know, sent to the 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.840 principal's office? Am I gonna have to set outside? Like 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.320 I'm already on thin ice? Anyway? So right, if you 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:26.840 had a history of sending kids the principal's office for cheating, 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:29.480 then maybe you know, someone might say, oh, that's too 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:32.040 much of a risk for me. Some of the teachers 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:36.240 they're still were still beating kids in the hallways with paddles. 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:41.080 That was Tennessee, right, it was we were in Georgia. 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:44.800 I can't really certain mats were known to be um paddlers. 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.680 And really, yeah, I thought that like corporal punishment was 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.760 like had gone uh, you know by the wayside. And 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:54.440 I think there was also a knowledge that well, I 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:56.600 mean certainly wasn't in elementary school. I think like all 0:15:56.640 --> 0:16:00.320 the teachers had like paddling was the the ultimate upun shman. 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:03.240 And you know it was humiliating too, because the kid 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.240 would unless you were like the kid was really hardened. 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:07.120 There was all those kids that didn't cry. But generally 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:11.800 the kids, yeah, they're used to the nuns, but uh, 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:14.160 but by high school, it kind of felt like like 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:17.160 maybe there was sort of a it depended on on 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:20.640 who you were and and what you're you're like social 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.680 socio economic status was somehow, because it's kind of like 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:27.640 the teachers who who still paddled tended to be like 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:31.600 the shop teachers and the or or coaches or you know, 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:34.760 like and you have the instruments to do it well. 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.160 Like to to put it, I guess to frame it simple, 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:39.160 it's like it was more of the country boy teachers 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:41.400 who still paddled, and it was the country boys who 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:46.880 got paddled. So that's interesting. Yeah, okay, yeah, that's actually 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:50.680 that's I've seen some studies on spanking and how it's 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.760 a cultural phenomenon in some areas, so that's very interesting. 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.160 I mean I remember situations where it was like, uh, 0:16:57.360 --> 0:16:59.000 and it would be like a study hall class I 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:00.920 was in where the teacher was like, you keep that up, 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:03.400 I'm gonna have paddle you, and the kid would would 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:04.800 keep up with it, and then you'd sort of get 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:06.560 paddled and it was like this weird kind of like 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:10.199 badge of honor for having been paddled and then it 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:11.879 was just kind of like businesses. It was like this 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:16.879 weird attitude towards taking a relatively grown man out into 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.240 the hallway and beating him on the buttocks with a 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:25.399 large piece of wood. That anyway, I'm going off the 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:31.159 camp and you know how I am my eighth grade mind. 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:36.000 Yeah yeah, yeah, so I mean but again, it's this 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.359 is a social contract that was entered two and said 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.480 that there was some sort of like okay, I accepted, 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:42.760 and it comes in and, like I said, comes down 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.200 to risk evaluation for my chance of being caught, what 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:46.919 what are the consequences of I am? And what do 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.720 I have to gain? And and for a number of people, 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:52.640 the equation ends up saying yes, I should teat because 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.119 I was more to gain than to lose in doing this. 0:17:55.600 --> 0:18:00.639 Dr She also found this phenomenon called motivated forget, and 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:04.560 students who read an academic honor code before cheating on 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:09.600 a test had a harder time recalling details of it afterward. Um, 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:11.840 which is interesting, right, So they were sort of like, oh, 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.439 that whole thing that's really fuzzy, I can't quite remember. 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:17.359 It's almost like they're willing themselves to forget it. So 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:19.639 they could have some sort of excuse of oh I 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.280 wasn't aware of that, and I wouldn't have cheated, you 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:24.280 know what I mean. That's that's the logic, right. But 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:26.880 if they were made to sign the Honor Code rather 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:30.760 than just passively read it beforehand, Um, then the instances 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:34.840 of cheating actually decreased, so that the passive versus the 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:38.040 active of actually signing it and saying okay, I agree 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:42.800 that I understand this information would contribute to the less cheating. 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:45.840 So I don't know. Sort of sort of interesting that 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:49.440 there are certain stop gaps in your mind that happened. 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:53.520 And this has also been found by Professor of behavioral 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:58.360 economics at Duke University, Dr Don dan Arially. Um. He's 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:00.399 also m I T as well as a rhetor of 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.800 m I T Center for Advanced Hindsight. Um. He's really 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.600 interested in the bugs in our moral codes and Enron 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:11.119 inspired him to study cheating. Yeah. Um, turns out that 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.199 a lot of people cheat a little bit, sort of 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:18.320 one of his grocery findings. And in economic theory, cheating 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:22.920 is a very simple cost benefit analysis. Okay, So again 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.200 you talked about, like, what's the probability of getting caught 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:27.359 how much do I stand gain from cheating? What kind 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:30.439 of punishment is doled out? And he took all of 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:34.080 that information and he conducted several tests, and one he 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:37.320 gave test subjects twenty math problems to solve and told 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:40.160 them that they'd all get paid cash for each correct answer, 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:42.400 and then he gave them an impossible amount of time 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:45.760 for them to to um actually answer these questions. I 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:49.560 think like five minutes or something and um. So, in 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:52.680 other words, you couldn't get the full amount that you 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:54.679 you might be able to get paid out, like maybe 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:58.600 for ten right answers, you can maybe only do five. Um. 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:01.400 So that insure that nobody could complete it in time. 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:03.639