1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Julie Douglas. Julie, 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: you know, I used to be a school teacher for 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 1: a very short period of time, right after I graduated 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: with my multi useful degree in creative writing. Did you 7 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: have a tweet jacket? I did not, Like I got 8 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: some chords later on that at the time, I didn't. 9 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: I did not have much in the way of scholarly 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,959 Speaker 1: ad dress close, you know. But yeah, I taught high 11 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: school English for a little bit and I had some 12 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: wonderful um kids that we're not necessarily all that inspired, 13 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: but you know, I went in there and tried the 14 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: best I could, and of course I ended up encountering 15 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 1: some cheating because there were number of feople in these 16 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: classes that really did not care. And it was the 17 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: challenge and probably a challenge you know, I ultimately was 18 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: not up to, was to try and get them interested 19 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: about English, about about learning in any way, shape or form, 20 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: and and ultimately some of these kids just weren't gonna 21 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,839 Speaker 1: listen to any of it. They'd rather, you know, do nothing. 22 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,919 Speaker 1: They'd rather pass notes. But but then you would encounter 23 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: kids that are equally less interested in achieving in the 24 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: class until it comes down to the final minute, until 25 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: the test paper is on the desk, and then they 26 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: want to succeed, and then they become Macavellian freaks, right, 27 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: and then they start pulling out the cheating techniques. And 28 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: it always like it would it would blow my mind 29 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: a little bit when someone puts a tremendous amount of 30 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: effort into some notes that they're gonna you know, hide 31 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: in their sleeve or there or there, you know, so 32 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: you couldn't get them to take notes during class, but 33 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: they'll copy like whole pages of text book onto the 34 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: corner of their desk and pencil so they can erase 35 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: it with like a licked palm. If you come around, man, 36 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: you saw the dark side cheating, scholastic cheating. Well yeah, 37 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: and it's um, it's interesting. Uh. And then that's why 38 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: we're talking about it in this podcast. And we are 39 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: talking pretty much academic cheating, scholastic cheating. Uh that we're 40 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: not going to get into any kind of saucy silp 41 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: opera stuff. You're not com boots cheating. Yeah, and I mean, 42 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: of course everybody can relate to this, right, because who 43 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: who among us has not cheated at least once in 44 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: some fashion. Right, Yeah, if you haven't broken the rules, 45 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: I'm willing to bet you've bent them at some point, uh, 46 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: in your favor. I mean, it's just what we do. 47 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: It's it's it's really a part of nature. Um. I 48 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: mean that sounds like I'm defending it. You know. It's 49 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: like I wouldn't cheating on the test man. It's a 50 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: part of nature. But but it's just part of the 51 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: evolution and maintenance of cooperative behavior, right. Right. If you're 52 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: gonna live in a society, you're gonna have to adhere 53 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: to the social contract, which says please don't cheat because 54 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: you know, otherwise the rest of us get shafted, right, 55 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: or at least that's sort of the bare bones basics 56 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 1: behind it. Yeah, it's one of those kind of a 57 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: balance though. Right. It's like, in many cases we can't 58 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: all cheat because the system will collapse. But some people 59 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: are gonna be willing to take the risks to reap 60 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: the rewards of cheating. Right, And Um, if you're out 61 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: there and you think, no, I'm not a cheater, it's 62 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: just that's not me. Um. I I want to say, 63 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: what if what if we told you that your beliefs 64 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: and values were not actually fixed and the moral code 65 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: that you carry with you and to find yourself by 66 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: is is actually kind of like a flotilla on the 67 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: sea of circumstances around you. Because that's what we're going 68 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: to talk about today, and this is just kind of 69 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: a slippery slope. Um, what we think about in terms 70 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: of our morality can sometimes be very different from the 71 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: actual reality of our morality. That I'm not gonna start 72 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: rapping to our Yeah, so let's hit some stats here. UM, 73 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,239 Speaker 1: I have some interesting numbers here, and this is first. 74 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: Let's start with the US. We have a number of 75 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: listeners in the US. Uh. We are in the U S. 76 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: And we attended school in the US, So these numbers 77 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: apply to all of all of US. UM. On most 78 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: US college campuses, over seventy five of the students admit 79 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: to some cheating. Um. You look at Internet plagiarism. Uh, 80 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:55,839 Speaker 1: you see about ten percent in in two thousand one. 81 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: Majority of these U S students think that cheating is 82 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: quote not a serious issue, and you see cheating rise 83 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: from eleven percent in nineteen sixty three to in nineteen 84 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: And this is based on self reported stats from state universe, Right, 85 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: which is interesting that it's risen that much. But but 86 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: then look at you take a look at US high schools. 87 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: Seventy series are into serious test cheating, like serious. Um, 88 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 1: your anecdote is corroborated. Yes, seventy two are into cheating 89 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: on written assignments, and over half are are generally into 90 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: some level of plagiarism on written assignments using the Internet. Yeah, 91 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: and um, I do have to look at the Internet 92 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: plagiarism and I've to say that ten percent in nineteen 93 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: early adopters. Yeah, my jurism online obviously in two thousand 94 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: and one is because everybody's using the internet. Then, right, 95 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: it's interesting to look at this jump you see from 96 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 1: high school to college and and there their number of 97 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: reasons you can lay out for that. But to me anyway, 98 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: when I when I look back at my own scholastic career, 99 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: my own academic high school was more about like us 100 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: versus them, about like like school and when you're kids 101 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 1: versus the teachers. Yeah, yeah, like when you're when you're 102 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: in high school, unless you're a really serious student, which 103 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: for the most part I was not. School feels like 104 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: this thing that is forced upon you. It is the 105 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: thing done to you. It happens to you. Quit doing 106 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: school to me, world, because I have I have games 107 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: of magic I need to play. Uh you know that 108 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Because I was an exciting kid, well, 109 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: and if you're a kid like I was, I was 110 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: offended by a lot of different aspects of school, like 111 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: particularly that I had to ask to go to use 112 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: the restroom. I thought that was insane. I can see that. 113 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: I can imagine you're being very stubborn about that, right, 114 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,119 Speaker 1: Why would I just I mean, can you not trust 115 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: me to go and empty my blotters on my own? 116 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: But for a lot of kids too, it's just about 117 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: surviving school, right. So Unfortunately, at least here in the US, 118 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: we don't have a great um sort of system in 119 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: place where you really are trying to kid they're getting 120 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: engage and it's more of a hey, we're all in 121 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: this together. Like you said, this is a very US 122 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: versus them. Yeah, it says versus them. Your I mean, 123 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: your hormones are doing all sorts of crazy stuff. You 124 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: you look at the world differently your immediate concerns are 125 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: going to be or in many cases are more related 126 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: to your interpersonal conflicts, um or or just having fun. Right. Uh. 127 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: And then in college, hopefully this shifts over more towards 128 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: school is not something done to me, but school is 129 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: something that I need to use or I am using 130 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: to better myself to gain some foothold in the world. 131 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: And uh and and so you have a little more 132 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: investment into it. Right, You're making some choices on your 133 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: own to about what sort of path you want to pursue. Right, 134 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: and then of course being into it. The subject is 135 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: another big thing, because I mean I remember back in 136 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: high school there were subjects I was really into, Like 137 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: I wasn't about to cheat on or to think about 138 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: cheating even on, like I say, an ancient history class 139 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: that I had, because I just love that thing. It 140 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: was just like all these you know, it's like ancient 141 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: battle after ancient battle and kings and rebellions. I mean 142 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: that stuff was awesome, or you know, or or literature 143 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: in English. I was always really into that. You know. 144 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: The temptation would arise in things like like well, I 145 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: guess it would arise in math class, but it quickly 146 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: becomes obvious that you can't really even think about cheating 147 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: in math because you have to solve this problem they 148 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: give you. And how are you going to do that? Well, 149 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: you should look over to whoever is sitting on your 150 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: right or left. See. But the thing, the thing was 151 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: that was always too risky for me, Like I was 152 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: not willing to take the risk of visually looking over 153 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: at somebody's desk and copying off of them. Okay, well, 154 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the psychological factors in a 155 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: moment and and this sort of risk assessment. But we 156 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: have established that we in the United States are a 157 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: bunch of cheaters. Yeah, what's the rest of the world doing? Yeah? Yeah, 158 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: for instance, what's Russia doing well? Russia? Apparently they are 159 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: really into sharing notes talking in classes. Okay, it's not 160 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: even hidden. The goal is to bring the whole class 161 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: level up, and bribes are routinely expected for grades. Wow, 162 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: so a teacher would expects bribe to come in I 163 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: guess us. Okay, that's that's interesting. I mean, I I 164 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: don't know if I was ever offered a bribe per 165 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: se when I was teaching, but I did have this 166 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: one situation where there's this girl that's just super failing English, 167 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: like if she couldn't have tried harder to fail it. 168 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: And I and I gave these I wanted these kids 169 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: to pass. I was giving them all sorts of opportunities 170 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: for extra credit. It's like, here, read this short story 171 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: and you'll get extra credit. You know, write something about it, 172 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: Do this and you'll get some extra credit, and will 173 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: let me help you pass this class. And of course 174 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: it's the last minute, and like this girl comes up 175 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: and it's like creepily saying like I'll do anything to pass, 176 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 1: blah blah blah. And then it was just like the 177 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: get away, go read a short story. But I I 178 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: also remember encountering someone This is not during my teaching, 179 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: this was in school, but I remember encounting somebody who 180 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: had been to school in Germany, and they had told 181 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 1: me that in their experience in Germany, cheating was more 182 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: expected and from the teachers, so like you were expected 183 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: to try and cheat. But then the teachers knew this, 184 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: so they're just making everything harder. Now. I don't know, 185 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: and we'll get into this a little bit too. I 186 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: don't know to what extent that person was rationalizing their 187 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: own individual cheating philosophy. If they were like saying, well, 188 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,719 Speaker 1: they know we're cheating, they're just making it harder on me. 189 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: And in fact, I don't cheat to keep up, I'm 190 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: doing myself a disservice. Yeah. Yeah, But some of the 191 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: stats we were looking at, though, they said that in 192 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: German schools, the sharing of answers is common. Uh, and 193 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: it's understood that it is very much a student versus 194 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: teacher situation, and so if you didn't share, it would 195 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: be a social taboo exactly right. You'd be sort of 196 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: forced to um or you'd be shunned. And Mexico sharing 197 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: is common, but students will deny this. Okay, that was 198 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: that sort of interesting. Professors do not expect citations and papers. 199 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: I thought that was amazing because you could just make 200 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: up anything. Really, um, you know, that sounded reasonable. Yeah, 201 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: I mean maybe they're just more until like, hey, at 202 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: least they're trying. I don't know if you can get 203 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: crazy with citation recommendation teachers, but Costa Rica, this is interesting. Teamwork. 204 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: The rule in personal and academic life, including supporting those 205 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: who do not contribute to the group. We've all been 206 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: in those situations where you have like a group assignment, 207 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 1: and there's on one end of the spectrum as a 208 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: person who's like super gung ho their leaders there, this 209 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: is what we're gonna do, this is when we're gonna 210 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: meet to do it. This is the work that's involved. 211 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: And then you have that one person that's just riding coattails. Yeah. 212 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: That there's the ne'er do well. Yeah, and everybody gets max. 213 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: They're like, you're not doing anything, so but of course 214 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: you have to go ahead and ban together because your 215 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: great is going to be effective by this person, which 216 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: makes sense. I mean, I having having been to Costa Rica, 217 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: it's uh. And I'm not pretending to have any deep, 218 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: like a deep cultural understanding of the country because I 219 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: want a vacation there for a week. But you do 220 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: get a huge sense of togetherness in this idea of yeah, 221 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: like let's let's pull this country up by our bootstraps. 222 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: Let's let's start carrying about the environment. Let's uh, you know, 223 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: let's get some tourist dollars in here. Let's let's let's 224 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: do it, so sell these monkeys. I was not I 225 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,719 Speaker 1: did not have an opportunity to buy a monkey when 226 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: I was there. I mean, like the idea of the monkeys. Ok, 227 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,959 Speaker 1: it's like, yes, let's save the environment, let's sell monchy. 228 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: I didn't come home with a lemur And um, China 229 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: and I mean there's bullets here. There's all sorts of 230 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: crazy things going on in China in terms of cheating. UM, 231 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: students actually openly admit that cheating is a way of life. 232 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: Intellectual property is a foreign concept. And of course we've 233 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 1: seen this before. And some of the products that um, 234 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 1: you know DVDs that you can get over there for 235 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: fifty cents a dollar whatever, they're kind of ripped off. 236 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: In fact, didn't you tell me that there was a 237 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: fake iPod store a few months back? But even more 238 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: amazing was I think it was the fifth Harry Potter book. 239 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: I could be wrong in this Potter fans, but uh, 240 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: you know, everyone was eagerly anticipating the next Harry Potter 241 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 1: book and there was then it was out in China 242 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: with this crazy cover that had like the dragon from 243 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: Sleeping Beauty on it, and it was like, wow, I 244 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: never found out exactly like what it consists it off, 245 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: did someone like write a big fan fiction book? Did 246 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: they just like download a bunch of fan fictions from 247 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,719 Speaker 1: the internet, but I don't know portions of it. And 248 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: rewrote it. I mean, you gotta put in some considerable work, 249 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: and they're even to fill a book that size up nothing. 250 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: The big value for for students in China is saving 251 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: face and maintaining group harmony. Cheating is seen as a 252 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: skill everyone should develop to succeed in the world. World 253 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: is corrupt, so this is like the basic thought process here. Yeah, 254 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: thus is the world? So yeah, you know which is 255 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: I mean, some people would say, well, that's a very 256 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: realistic point of view right there, um Burma. Students learn 257 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: um that it's sort of a task that's shared by 258 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: a group, so it's not seen as cheating again, so 259 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: much um. And the worst accusation in this culture is selfishness, 260 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: pursuing your own goals at the expense of others. So 261 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: we've talked about some of the stats around cheating. We 262 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 1: discussed sort of our own personal takes on school, you know, 263 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: at an early age, and then how it changed depending 264 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: on if we were into a subject where we were 265 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: in college. And so it only makes sense not to 266 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: discuss like why is a was a culture? Why don't 267 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: we why do we cheat? Why don't we attempt to 268 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: work the system in our favor and uh and get 269 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: by without putting Yeah, what's going on in our minds 270 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: that allows us to do this, um, even if it's 271 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: sort of outside of what we think is our own 272 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: moral code. And there are a couple of different topics 273 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: we can cover here. One is moral disengagement and another 274 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: is motivated forgetting and uh. Moral disengagement is described by 275 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 1: psychologist Albert van Dura to UM, which is like the 276 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: process by which people pervert their own sense of self 277 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: and their sense of right and wrong in order to 278 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,839 Speaker 1: give into a questionable temptation. Okay, so you you become 279 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: morally disengaged from what you're doing, and we've seen this 280 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 1: in many instances. Um. And then motivated forgetting. We'll talk 281 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: about that in a moment. Dr Lisa Shoe at Harvard 282 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: University conducted a study in which one group of students 283 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 1: were left to their own devices to report their score 284 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: while another another groups was calculated by a proctor. And 285 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: when students were given more morally permissive environment, it was 286 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: found that they were more apt to cheat, which, okay, 287 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 1: that's no surprise, right. A sticking point is that before 288 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: and after they were given a questionnaire to to gauge 289 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: their degree of moral engagement. Okay, so the questionnaire would 290 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: sort of ask them like, you know, how do you 291 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: feel about you know, these certain circumstances and your own 292 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: morality and so on and so forth, And she found 293 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: that the students who cheated exhibited greater amounts of moral disengagement, 294 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: pointing to the fact that doing the deed, actually cheating, 295 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: can lead to sort of like a tangle web we 296 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: weave when once we begin to deceive. Right, So, once 297 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: you do it, you're more apt to continue doing it, 298 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: at least in some sort of short term, right, I mean, 299 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: are we talking about hours? Are we talking about months? 300 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: That's not exactly defined. But you know, once you cross 301 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: that line, it's a lot easier to do it again, right, 302 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: And it's frequently pointed out that it's a lot of 303 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: it comes down to risk calculation and rip at evaluation. 304 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: What am I to gain by cheating? What are my 305 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: chances of being caught? And then if I'm caught, what 306 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: are the consequences? Like is uh is Mr Lamb the 307 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: English teacher? Is he just gonna fail me on the test? Well? 308 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: I was going to fail anyway, Right, so I might 309 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: as well cheat. There's nothing wrong with that. What's am 310 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: I get? How much trouble am I going to get in? 311 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: Am I going to be you know, sent to the 312 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: principal's office? Am I gonna have to set outside? Like 313 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: I'm already on thin ice? Anyway? So right, if you 314 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: had a history of sending kids the principal's office for cheating, 315 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: then maybe you know, someone might say, oh, that's too 316 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: much of a risk for me. Some of the teachers 317 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: they're still were still beating kids in the hallways with paddles. 318 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: That was Tennessee, right, it was we were in Georgia. 319 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: I can't really certain mats were known to be um paddlers. 320 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: And really, yeah, I thought that like corporal punishment was 321 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: like had gone uh, you know by the wayside. And 322 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: I think there was also a knowledge that well, I 323 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: mean certainly wasn't in elementary school. I think like all 324 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: the teachers had like paddling was the the ultimate upun shman. 325 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: And you know it was humiliating too, because the kid 326 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: would unless you were like the kid was really hardened. 327 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: There was all those kids that didn't cry. But generally 328 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: the kids, yeah, they're used to the nuns, but uh, 329 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: but by high school, it kind of felt like like 330 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: maybe there was sort of a it depended on on 331 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: who you were and and what you're you're like social 332 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: socio economic status was somehow, because it's kind of like 333 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: the teachers who who still paddled tended to be like 334 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: the shop teachers and the or or coaches or you know, 335 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: like and you have the instruments to do it well. 336 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: Like to to put it, I guess to frame it simple, 337 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: it's like it was more of the country boy teachers 338 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: who still paddled, and it was the country boys who 339 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: got paddled. So that's interesting. Yeah, okay, yeah, that's actually 340 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: that's I've seen some studies on spanking and how it's 341 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: a cultural phenomenon in some areas, so that's very interesting. 342 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: I mean I remember situations where it was like, uh, 343 00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: and it would be like a study hall class I 344 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: was in where the teacher was like, you keep that up, 345 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have paddle you, and the kid would would 346 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: keep up with it, and then you'd sort of get 347 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: paddled and it was like this weird kind of like 348 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 1: badge of honor for having been paddled and then it 349 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: was just kind of like businesses. It was like this 350 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: weird attitude towards taking a relatively grown man out into 351 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: the hallway and beating him on the buttocks with a 352 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: large piece of wood. That anyway, I'm going off the 353 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 1: camp and you know how I am my eighth grade mind. 354 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, so I mean but again, it's this 355 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: is a social contract that was entered two and said 356 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: that there was some sort of like okay, I accepted, 357 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: and it comes in and, like I said, comes down 358 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: to risk evaluation for my chance of being caught, what 359 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 1: what are the consequences of I am? And what do 360 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: I have to gain? And and for a number of people, 361 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: the equation ends up saying yes, I should teat because 362 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: I was more to gain than to lose in doing this. 363 00:17:55,600 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: Dr She also found this phenomenon called motivated forget, and 364 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: students who read an academic honor code before cheating on 365 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: a test had a harder time recalling details of it afterward. Um, 366 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: which is interesting, right, So they were sort of like, oh, 367 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 1: that whole thing that's really fuzzy, I can't quite remember. 368 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: It's almost like they're willing themselves to forget it. So 369 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: they could have some sort of excuse of oh I 370 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: wasn't aware of that, and I wouldn't have cheated, you 371 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: know what I mean. That's that's the logic, right. But 372 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 1: if they were made to sign the Honor Code rather 373 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: than just passively read it beforehand, Um, then the instances 374 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: of cheating actually decreased, so that the passive versus the 375 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: active of actually signing it and saying okay, I agree 376 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: that I understand this information would contribute to the less cheating. 377 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: So I don't know. Sort of sort of interesting that 378 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: there are certain stop gaps in your mind that happened. 379 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: And this has also been found by Professor of behavioral 380 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 1: economics at Duke University, Dr Don dan Arially. Um. He's 381 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: also m I T as well as a rhetor of 382 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: m I T Center for Advanced Hindsight. Um. He's really 383 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: interested in the bugs in our moral codes and Enron 384 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: inspired him to study cheating. Yeah. Um, turns out that 385 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 1: a lot of people cheat a little bit, sort of 386 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: one of his grocery findings. And in economic theory, cheating 387 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 1: is a very simple cost benefit analysis. Okay, So again 388 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: you talked about, like, what's the probability of getting caught 389 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: how much do I stand gain from cheating? What kind 390 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: of punishment is doled out? And he took all of 391 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: that information and he conducted several tests, and one he 392 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: gave test subjects twenty math problems to solve and told 393 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 1: them that they'd all get paid cash for each correct answer, 394 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: and then he gave them an impossible amount of time 395 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: for them to to um actually answer these questions. I 396 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: think like five minutes or something and um. So, in 397 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: other words, you couldn't get the full amount that you 398 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 1: you might be able to get paid out, like maybe 399 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: for ten right answers, you can maybe only do five. Um. 400 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: So that insure that nobody could complete it in time. 401 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: And then when the time was the control subjects were 402 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: told to count their correct answers and collect their pay. Okay. 403 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: So the test group, however, was told to shred their 404 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: exams before reporting their totals. So you have two groups, okay, 405 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: one that that's counting up the other one who can 406 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: is essentially getting rid of the evidence before Yeah, they 407 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: could say, and and they would be like, could you 408 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: have proof of that? And Nope, just shredded it. But 409 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: I totally answered everything you did in an impossible amount 410 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: of time exactly. And so you know, obviously he's trying 411 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: to engage cheaters into cheating. Um. So not surprisingly, the 412 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: people who were shredding were cheating a lot more um. 413 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,239 Speaker 1: But they only cheated by a small amount. Okay, So 414 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: when I say small amount, they knew better than to 415 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: say ken because they didn't want to be They didn't 416 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: want to be that obvious exactly exactly, Like there was 417 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: some sort of margin of cheating that was acceptable to him. 418 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: So he looked into that situation. I thought, well, I'm 419 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: going to vary the amount that I pay them, so 420 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 1: you know this. I'm gonna conduct this experiment again um 421 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: at ten cents, at fifty cents, at a dollar. And 422 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: what he found is that the the highest the dollar 423 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,199 Speaker 1: per question, actually cheating went down. So again there's some 424 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:16,719 Speaker 1: sort of like prescribed or or inscribed morality inherent in cheating, 425 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: like this is for a dollar, this is serious business, 426 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 1: like cheating for a nickel. That's not that's no big deal, 427 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of It reminds me a lot 428 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: of these, uh, these cost analysis that you see regarding 429 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: office theft, where individuals will steal a pin or steal 430 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 1: of the thing of printer paper or whatever, because they're 431 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: looking at it. It's like that's a pen, that's some 432 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: printer paper, that's a you know, that's a computer mouse. 433 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: That's that's pretty cheap. But but the same individual that 434 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: would rationalize that would not say take off with a 435 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: laptop or or just robbed the soda refrigerator blind. There 436 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: are levels at which it is acceptable and in which 437 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 1: it is not acceptable in the thief's mind. Well, and 438 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: that's what Arialie was looking at too, and he was 439 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:00,959 Speaker 1: sort of like, a how does this play out? When 440 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: I put a six pack of a soda in the 441 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: dorm refrigerators and of course those disappeared like in no time. 442 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: But then he put a plate of six one dollar 443 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: bills in the refrigerator and they just stayed there completely, 444 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: you know, because again, if I steal that one dollar, 445 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: I'm stealing. But if I'm taking a coke, I'm taking coke. Right. 446 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: I've I've always found it interesting the whole theft of 447 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: of of office food. Yeah, because I think and you know, 448 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: this is a great place to work, but I think 449 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 1: we have occasionally encountered some some office food theft here, 450 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: just in small amounts. I will say, do not bring 451 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: a fancy yogurt because there is one person in the 452 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: office that I know will not be your yogurt who 453 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 1: really likes fancy yogurt. Never So, now you know, well, 454 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: on the opposite end of that spectrum, I once worked 455 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: for a newspaper that had a press room in the back. 456 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: And when I mean a press room, it's like we 457 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: we made the newspaper in the front. I was in 458 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: the editorial department, and then in the back the press 459 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: room dudes would would print the paper and the old 460 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: timey cut and paste. Yeah. Yeah, I was part of that, 461 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: and some of the people worked there were old timey. 462 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: It was. It was great. But there was a refrigerator 463 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: shared by both departments, and it was it eventually just 464 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 1: became common knowledge that on the weekends, if you happen 465 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: to leave anything in the fridge and I mean anything 466 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: like a half eaten meal in a styrofoam containing, those 467 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: dudes in the back would emerge from their press room 468 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: that did not smell of newspapers. Let's just say it 469 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: had a very uh there was this there was a 470 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: certain herbal odor going on, and then they would just 471 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 1: consume everything yeah, Oh, I think I knew what you're 472 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: talking about there, like cannabis. Yes, yes, that's what I'm suspecting. Well, 473 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: I mean it's the weekend cannabis. They've got the munchies exactly. Yeah. 474 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: So they would just eat everything in the refrigerator, like 475 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: down to like half sandwiches and and and leftovers and 476 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: like somebody's uh, you know, mostly empty thing of peanut butter. 477 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: It's kind of amazing. I love telling that story. But 478 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: I think it's funny that that people will continue to 479 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: leave stuff they are knowing that, like the cannadbas munchies 480 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,719 Speaker 1: were going to occur over the weekend, or maybe they 481 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: didn't realize. Okay, yeah, so you see it in the workplace, 482 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: You see it in college dorms with with soda. Right. 483 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: But Ariel like he is obsessed with this idea of cheating, 484 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: and so he conducts another experiment, and this is very 485 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: similar to the other one where he's got the group 486 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: who is self reporting, um, you know how many correct 487 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: answers that they have. But in this group, he's got 488 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 1: a bunch of Carnegie Melon students and he has um 489 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 1: like thirty seconds into this, right, It's like very obvious. 490 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: This person is cheating. He stands up, he's got his 491 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 1: Carnegie Melon sweatshirt on, and he says, I'm done. What 492 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: do I do? And the person uh in the study says, 493 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: just go ahead and collect your money, And of course 494 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: a lots of other people start going, yeah, me too, 495 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: I'm done, and they're cheating as well. But what they 496 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: found is that when they varied it by having the 497 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: person wearing a University of Pittsburgh sweatshirt right rvals, this 498 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: is an outside right, this person is standing up with 499 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: the University of Pittsburgh sweatshirt in a room full of 500 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: Melanie or Melanie Hey, Melanie of Carnegie Melon students, that 501 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: the cheating actually went down. I think that even said 502 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: to null because people did not identify with that person. 503 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: They were outside of their their social group. It again 504 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: comes down to what is the moral climate, uh, you know, 505 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: and and in in us versus them, what is the 506 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: moral climate of us? You don't want to be them? Right? 507 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: And so he kind of took all of this and 508 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 1: he applied it to to and Ron right, because he's 509 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: he's thinking like, how does this play out in the 510 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: real world in financial circumstances when there where there's a 511 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: lot of cheating going on, and so he's saying, okay, 512 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: here's a bunch of people who are engaged in systematic, widespread, 513 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: planned accounting fraud in order to keep stock prices artificially 514 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: high as well as their credit rating. And think about 515 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: stock and credit rates. These are now the stand ins 516 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: for money, just as um, you know, the cokes and 517 00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: the fridge were, or the the soda in the fridge was. 518 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: So there's an abstraction of money. So people are a 519 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: little bit more apt to say like, Okay, it's just 520 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,239 Speaker 1: it's just play money, right, It's just an idea of 521 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,479 Speaker 1: money that we're dealing with here. It's not big piles 522 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: of cash that we're actually stealing. Um. And he's also 523 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: saying that you have a bunch of people in that 524 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: in the actual industry who are identifying with each other. 525 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: So again we're looking at that that same sort of 526 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: university sweatshirt. Think of them everybody working at Enron is 527 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 1: wearing the same university sweatshirts and saying, well, you know, 528 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: if that person is doing it, then it must be okay, 529 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: it's okay if that I can donate or I sort 530 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: of look the other way or even participate. And it's 531 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: just really interesting because it turns out that this sort 532 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: of fraud um is something like six hundred billion dollars 533 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 1: a year. Uh So it's widespread. And when you look 534 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: at it that way as this abstraction of money and 535 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: everybody's just sort of turning the other way, then it 536 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: becomes a much more problematic. Right. Well, it also makes 537 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 1: me think of a various correctional institutions, you know, and 538 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: just the idea that taking somebody for say a minor 539 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: drug offense at a young age, putting them in a 540 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: prison environment and then you know, acting surprised if they 541 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 1: come out of that environment with the attitude more of 542 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: an attitude that the criminal behaviors are are okay. Right, 543 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: because in some some respects, there's a permissive environment no 544 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 1: matter what that is, you know, across the board, whether 545 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 1: it's a culture, organization of business, there are things you 546 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: can get away with, right, Um. But let's talk about creativity. 547 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,679 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, So this comes down to the same 548 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: dude we were talking about earlier, Dan Airily, who again 549 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: was doing another test where he had and this time 550 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 1: it was like a hundred people, uh and he were 551 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: doing a similar thing where everybody takes a test. They're 552 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: filling in their multiple choice and then they're asked to 553 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: transfer their answers to another sheet, which, by the way, 554 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: accident just because of a printing air, it has the 555 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: answers on it. So don't the answers are on the 556 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: sheet you're transferring to, but don't change from your originals. Again, 557 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: this is sell reporting really to the individual, right, So yeah, 558 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: will the person cheat? Will they not? And then they 559 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: compare everything afterwards, And they were testing creative and supposedly 560 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: non creative people, and he found that the the more 561 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: creative the person like, the higher level of cheating involved. 562 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: In this particular study, creative people are a bunch of cheaters. Well, 563 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: it's interesting. What's really fascinating about this is that it 564 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: comes down to um something we've talked about before, like 565 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: the power of storytelling, like the creative mind getting engaged 566 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: in the creation of a story, the creation of of 567 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 1: a character with various things set upon them. I think 568 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: I made the argument that I feel like, uh, sometimes 569 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: creative people and especially writers tend to be more depressed, 570 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: more miserable in some conditions because their their brain is 571 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: more apt to create a me story, you know, like 572 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: something bad happens, and then they create, they create, instantly 573 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: create that story where about how something bad happened to me, 574 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: how something bad is happening to me, to a largely 575 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: send the tell our memories form. We've talked about using 576 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: say like Tetris games to immediately uh, stay of off 577 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: post traumatic stress, because before that you can actually form 578 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: that me story and take what has just happened, in 579 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: form it into this this series of events and store 580 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: it away. You're interfering with it with Tetris and anyway, 581 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: the argument here with the creative individuals is that when 582 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: it comes to cheating, they're more um apt to create 583 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: a story again where I am the central character. But 584 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: in this story, UM, I have a rationale for cheating. 585 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: That's suppos about to say too? Is that? Um? You know, 586 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: we've done so much research on pattern recognition, and a 587 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: lot of times it takes a great amount of creativity 588 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: to see patterns where there are none. Um. And of 589 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: course you can rationalize with with pattern recognition. Right. It's 590 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: like the German individual that I talked to that one time, 591 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: for instance, you know I mentioned earlier. It's like, I'm 592 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: not sure to what extent what they were telling me 593 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: was true or or is that just there there me 594 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: story that rationalize their cheating. It's like, well, my I 595 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: come from a culture that, uh where it's okay. Or 596 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: in the school, the teachers know I'm cheating, so it's 597 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: it's it's fine they if I'm not cheating, I'm I'm 598 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: cheating myself by not rising to the occasion. Or you know, 599 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: you can imagine any number of cases where someone's like, well, 600 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: the class is too hard, so I should cheat to 601 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: make up the difference. Or I've been said I've had 602 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: to put up with other things in my life, I've 603 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: been into the disadvantage, or I had a rough a 604 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: rough week, uh you know prior to the test, so 605 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: cheating is is okay for me? Or I mean I 606 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: was just thinking about this too. Like if you've got 607 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: too much cash back from an exchange at a retailer, yea, 608 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: and you might say that I read this to uh 609 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: something like you you might not like that retailer and say, 610 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,239 Speaker 1: oh that's the that's the man, Like they don't need 611 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: a big box store, they don't need this money. So yeah, likewise, 612 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: I'm in the office stuff case where people will end 613 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: up doing it for petty reasons. Um, like you know, 614 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 1: give me too much work to do. I'll take that 615 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: out with pin theft your yogurt. Yeah, um, but yeah, 616 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: I mean early. It was basically saying that the sort 617 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: of morality about cheating is really about the mirror that 618 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: reminds us of who we are at the point where 619 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: it matters. So again, signing an honor code before you 620 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: take a test, it's going to be much more effective 621 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: and reminding you about, you know, what is important to you, 622 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: what matters in terms of how you conduct yourself. Um. 623 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: And they've even seen studies before where it's far more 624 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: effective to post how fast someone is traveling in their car, right, 625 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: how much they're speeding. Yeah. They have those roadside meters 626 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: that tell you yeah yeah, because once they see like 627 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: oh man, I'm going sixty five and forty five, people 628 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: sort of shame themselves and saying, oh I I see 629 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: the mirror of myself. And and it's far more effective 630 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: than putting you know, two cup cars there all day long, 631 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: because then that's just these are guys are out to 632 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: get me. They're literally out there get me and uh 633 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: and uh and it and it's instead of it being 634 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: a me versus them, it's a me versus me. I'm 635 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: in competition with my own sense of self being. Some 636 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: things to think about here. Oh yeah, so cheating. I'll 637 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: tell you what If you guys have anything you would 638 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: like to share with us about the cheating academic cheatings 639 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: of scholastic cheating, um, let us know. I would love 640 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: to hear anyone's story on Like you know, I'm always 641 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: game for any amusing tales about creative methods of cheating 642 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: and from if you if you're a teacher or if 643 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: you're a student. And I'm very interested in people who 644 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: have who can can really be honest with themselves and 645 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: look at cases where they have cheated and then where 646 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: they haven't cheated, or where like a part time in 647 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: their life when they did cheat on tests and then 648 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: they left that behind, Like what change in you? What 649 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: you know? How did you how did your attitude toward 650 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: the subject matter change or towards school itself change? I 651 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: think all that substas are you like sophocleans and you 652 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: say something like I would prefer even to fail with 653 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: honor that win by cheating. Ah, there you go, so 654 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,959 Speaker 1: you can find us on Facebook and Twitter. We are 655 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: below the mind. On Twitter and on Facebook, we're just 656 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: stuff to love the mind. To find us that way 657 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: by search, But perhaps you want to do this anonymously 658 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: and how us leave out your name. Oh if that's 659 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: the case, feel free to send us an email at 660 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: and blow the mind at how stuff works dot com. 661 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: Be sure to check out our new video podcast, Stuff 662 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: from the Future. Join how Stuff Work staff as we 663 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: explore the most promising and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow.