Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Welcome The Mother Knows Death. We have a
Speaker 1: special episode that we are doing with our friend Gandhi
Speaker 1: from Sauce on the side.
Speaker 2: I know, I'm so excited about this episode. By the way,
Speaker 2: I've been waiting on it.
Speaker 3: We are huge fans of your show.
Speaker 2: Same. I think you guys are amazing and I love
Speaker 2: what you do. I said all the time, I love
Speaker 2: women in science. It's not that women are not in science.
Speaker 2: I feel like women don't get highlighted enough who are
Speaker 2: in science. I think the guys get a lot of attention,
Speaker 2: but when women are doing good things, I love it.
Speaker 2: So yeah, thanks for doing this with me.
Speaker 1: It's really interesting that you say that, because, especially in
Speaker 1: my field, it's predominantly women now. But when I started training,
Speaker 1: it was like the older people that were there there
Speaker 1: were more men. So it's just interesting how it's transitioning.
Speaker 2: And I bet that the women are just doing amazing jobs.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: So we have like a ton of stuff to talk about, right, Yes,
Speaker 2: I want to know how you guys. We're doing a
Speaker 2: crossover episode, so your listeners are going to hear me,
Speaker 2: and my listeners are going to hear you, and I'm
Speaker 2: excited about that for a lot of reasons, but mostly
Speaker 2: because I could talk to you all for a million
Speaker 2: years about one hundred different things. We got started talking
Speaker 2: about Charlie Kirk in the hallway. Yeah, I don't know
Speaker 2: where you guys want to start, So I feel like
Speaker 2: you should. You should take the lead on this and
Speaker 2: tell us where we're going.
Speaker 1: All right, So I'm I've heard a rumor that they
Speaker 1: said that he did not have an autopsy done. Mm hmm,
Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk. But okay, I would like to know where
Speaker 1: that came from. Officially, I think that it is very unlike.
Speaker 1: I think that's unlikely, just the way that the law
Speaker 1: works in every jurisdiction. If you have a homicide case,
Speaker 1: it's an automatic autopsy. So I think that, you know,
Speaker 1: we're used to maybe in LA, especially the records are public.
Speaker 1: We can go on and we could get people's full
Speaker 1: autopsy reports, including celebrit He's like Michael Jackson. But certain
Speaker 1: states are not that open, and Utah could possibly be
Speaker 1: one of them that they just say it's none of
Speaker 1: the public's business and you're not having that information. So
Speaker 1: I think that definitely after so when a person dies
Speaker 1: in that situation at the hospital. The hospital is required
Speaker 1: to report that death, and they would report it to
Speaker 1: the Medical Examiner's office and then they would come pick
Speaker 1: up the body and bring it to the MORG and
Speaker 1: do the autopsy. I don't see how in any world
Speaker 1: that wouldn't have been done. They don't even care if
Speaker 1: he had religious exemptions or anything like. They're doing it
Speaker 1: because it's going to be a court case and they're
Speaker 1: going to have to testify, And how could anyone testify
Speaker 1: if no one examined it.
Speaker 2: So the confusion is probably no autopsy versus no autopsy report,
Speaker 2: at least to the public. You're saying there has to
Speaker 2: be one.
Speaker 1: There has to be otherwise the guy who we could
Speaker 1: talk about if he did it.
Speaker 2: Tyler Robinson, if he did it, because I think we're
Speaker 2: kind of all on the same page, like, no, I
Speaker 2: think we don't think so at this point.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are on that page.
Speaker 3: I was.
Speaker 1: I was fallen for a little while until that the
Speaker 1: text messages came out and then I'm like, Okay, this
Speaker 1: is weird. If they were if they were eighty year olds,
Speaker 1: you might believe it or something. I just don't even
Speaker 1: at our age, Like if you looked at your text
Speaker 1: messages with your friends, they would be all abbreviations and.
Speaker 2: Without a doubt, Yeah, I wouldn't have like some Shakespearean
Speaker 2: wording to my significant other about nonthing. It would be
Speaker 2: very weird.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just thought. I just thought that that was
Speaker 1: weird and it just makes me question things now. But
Speaker 1: for sure, if they're going to try to prosecute someone,
Speaker 1: there has to be an autopsy because otherwise, how are
Speaker 1: you gonna prove anything just because of the footage? Like, no,
Speaker 1: that that could be for all you know, right, Like.
Speaker 3: Could they hold on to the report until the trial happens,
Speaker 3: because we like we don't always get them right away.
Speaker 3: Most of the time when they come out, it's because
Speaker 3: TMS reporters are waiting and they get them immediately. But
Speaker 3: we had requested the one for in the David case,
Speaker 3: the less Revus autopsy report. Yes, and they're basically like,
Speaker 3: you're not getting it until this case.
Speaker 1: Is we still haven't gotten it, and we right, and
Speaker 1: you paid for it, paid.
Speaker 3: For it, and they sent me one page that said
Speaker 3: nothing and that's that.
Speaker 2: How much does it cost to request an autopsy report?
Speaker 2: That one was.
Speaker 3: Thirty four dollars, I believe.
Speaker 2: And you can request this from anyone anywhere, because I
Speaker 2: think I might go request an autopsy report about something
Speaker 2: that I've been interested in for a while.
Speaker 1: I believe anybody can get certain offices depending on you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like for La, Yes, like New York doesn't oftentimes release
Speaker 1: the whole report. They might just give a diagnosis or
Speaker 1: something like that. There's all these different rules depending where
Speaker 1: you are, but there's lots like let's talk about the
Speaker 1: Brian Coberger Idaho for a case, for example. This whole time,
Speaker 1: I haven't written about it on my website because I
Speaker 1: was like, I want to wait and see what the
Speaker 1: autopsy reports say. They never got released, and then they
Speaker 1: just released a bunch of stuff because he pled guilty,
Speaker 1: and they're still not really autopsy reports. They're more like
Speaker 1: summery too. Yeah, but I've never seen an actual autopsy
Speaker 1: report on each one of those victims yet. There's summaries
Speaker 1: maybe some describing some of the wounds, but it's not
Speaker 1: a full autopsy report, so that we might not ever
Speaker 1: see that, And I guess for public interest it's probably
Speaker 1: they should because there's so many questions. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, they're scared to death that people are going
Speaker 1: to pick it apart like another case that we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about later. Okay, So so that right there
Speaker 1: I think is not correct. Information is I could be wrong,
Speaker 1: but I just don't see in a world if a
Speaker 1: court case is happening, how there could not be an autopsy.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's fascinating that the more information we have
Speaker 2: at our fingertips, it's like we have no information because
Speaker 2: you're getting seventy thousand different people saying different things at
Speaker 2: one time. Most of them haven't actually done the research
Speaker 2: on how this works, or talk to a specialist who says, hey,
Speaker 2: you can't have a murder without an autopsy report. It
Speaker 2: doesn't mean the autopsy report is going to be accurate
Speaker 2: or honest, but there will be a report to which
Speaker 2: that was my question to you, How easy is it
Speaker 2: to fix an autopsy report or to report something differently
Speaker 2: from what you actually find?
Speaker 1: Well, if that, if if I were to receive that
Speaker 1: particular case, or any just anyone in this field, should
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what should be done. They're going to
Speaker 1: photograph the hell out of it. Right, So, even if
Speaker 1: the report maybe doesn't one hundred percent match. They could
Speaker 1: look at the pictures and be like an And that
Speaker 1: could happen time time, especially if someone is shot a
Speaker 1: bunch of times and there's multiple wounds to document, you
Speaker 1: might miss one when you're writing it down. When we
Speaker 1: are taking when we're looking at a body on the table,
Speaker 1: we take notes, and oftentimes those notes get very bloody
Speaker 1: because we're using pens and touching organs, and the pens
Speaker 1: are bloody, the PaperWorks bloody. So then, like when I
Speaker 1: used to do it, I would put it in a
Speaker 1: biohazard bag that was clear, and then take it back
Speaker 1: to my desk and rewrite what I wrote. So sometimes,
Speaker 1: you know, there could just be a simple mistake as
Speaker 1: far as that goes. But in a case like his,
Speaker 1: I feel like there would have been witnesses to see
Speaker 1: the autopsy, lots of documentation, just lots, and there's going
Speaker 1: to be from not only from the autopsy, but also
Speaker 1: from you know, he did go to the hospital and
Speaker 1: they did appear to do some intervention on him, so
Speaker 1: that would also be added, you know, correlated together to
Speaker 1: make sure that everyone's account And then of course we
Speaker 1: all saw the video, all of us, like everyone in
Speaker 1: the world.
Speaker 2: Seventy five different angles. Yeah, and I think if people
Speaker 2: haven't been following along with this, there just are a
Speaker 2: lot of inconsistencies with what the public is being told
Speaker 2: and what now you're finding out, including the people who
Speaker 2: are going back and looking at Google trend searches and
Speaker 2: things that people searched before the incident, and how there
Speaker 2: was a spike in certain things and then all of
Speaker 2: a sudden that information was wiped, and how they're saying
Speaker 2: this is a what do they call it? A thirty
Speaker 2: six rifle.
Speaker 4: Something like that.
Speaker 2: Clearly I'm not an expert of this, but there are
Speaker 2: a lot of gun experts who say a bullet from
Speaker 2: that specific rifle would cause so much more damage to
Speaker 2: a human body than what actually happened, and that they
Speaker 2: don't believe that what we saw was an entrance wound.
Speaker 2: They believe that was an exit wound. And now there
Speaker 2: are a lot of theories that, oh, it came from
Speaker 2: his lava leer mic. It was a very set up
Speaker 2: assassination of a person who people wanted to be silenced
Speaker 2: for a lot of different reasons. So I'm fascinated by this.
Speaker 2: I'm fascinated by how everything has played out since and
Speaker 2: how little we've heard about or from the actual suspect,
Speaker 2: who Again, I don't think any of us really believe
Speaker 2: that this person did it, but it's just it's a wild,
Speaker 2: wild ride, and it's one of those things where I wonder,
Speaker 2: are we ever going to get the truth here? You
Speaker 2: guys have to have some cases like that where you
Speaker 2: feel the same way too, well.
Speaker 1: I mean like JFK is the first, right, Yeah, perfect
Speaker 1: example of forensic experts going back and looking at it
Speaker 1: and being like, yeah, no, there's no way. And I agree.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, my brother has a weapon similar
Speaker 1: to that that he uses for hunting, and I was
Speaker 1: really asking him like, what's the purpose of this, and
Speaker 1: it's just like, the purpose is that you have a
Speaker 1: moving target, you have one chance, and it's to cause
Speaker 1: a lot of disruption inside of the body to make
Speaker 1: sure that they're down.
Speaker 2: And talking about big animals, yeah, not a small not exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you know, my expertise is more in pathology rather
Speaker 1: than gunshot wounds. So I don't want to say I personally,
Speaker 1: just the things that I've seen during my training and everything,
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of injuries by that type of
Speaker 1: a weapon. And they're a lot they're a lot more
Speaker 1: gruesome than that particular one was. I mean, obviously he died,
Speaker 1: so it did what it was supposed to do in
Speaker 1: a sense, but there's just lots of different theories that
Speaker 1: that could be an exit wound, and you're just getting
Speaker 1: different reporting, I mean from a couple legitimate sources I
Speaker 1: guess you would consider legitimate news. Like some people were
Speaker 1: saying he was wearing a bulletproofess, some people were saying
Speaker 1: he wasn't. That could change things because the bullet could
Speaker 1: ricochet off of that and things like that. So we
Speaker 1: don't have like any documentation except to hearsay at this point.
Speaker 1: Even some of the interviews like his friends have done afterwards,
Speaker 1: you could kind of get a series of like he
Speaker 1: was in the car and they were saying there was
Speaker 1: a chance that they would restored a pulse and all
Speaker 1: of that. But like when I saw that video, it
Speaker 1: was very jarring because I knew he was dead, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: So it's just this is just going to be the
Speaker 1: way life is from now on with every single thing
Speaker 1: that happens as far because anytime something goes on social media,
Speaker 1: you just have people that are experts in every single field.
Speaker 1: I just saw this cool video. Actually, I'll send it
Speaker 1: to you if I could find it. But this guy
Speaker 1: had the same as that gun, and he was a
Speaker 1: firearms expert, and he had put it together with this
Speaker 1: little key they said he used that. He took it
Speaker 1: apart and was showing how long it took to do
Speaker 1: it and how big it was and how you couldn't
Speaker 1: like jump off the side of the building with it
Speaker 1: in your pants and all of this stuff. And you're
Speaker 1: just looking at that, and that guy's not involved in
Speaker 1: the case. But when you look at him doing it,
Speaker 1: you're like, well, there is there another way to do it?
Speaker 1: Or is like this it and that was not possible?
Speaker 1: So it does you do listen to people and you're like,
Speaker 1: oh shit, like maybe maybe this is this is not
Speaker 1: how they're telling us. And honestly, like they have a
Speaker 1: history of this. I don't know who they is necessarily,
Speaker 1: but the government with JFK. You know what's funny. My
Speaker 1: husband and my kids we took a road trip and
Speaker 1: we drove through Dallas because I wanted to see the
Speaker 1: sixth floor of the of the book. Yeah, I always
Speaker 1: mess this up because my father in law always calls
Speaker 1: it the depository or the depository. You got it right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I got it right. And then I'm like, I keep
Speaker 1: telling them I'm gonna kill you because you're gonna make
Speaker 1: me slip one day. But yeah, So they have a
Speaker 1: museum on the sixth floor there where Oswald was supposed
Speaker 1: to be when he shot him. And I thought it
Speaker 1: was really bizarre because the whole corner of that building
Speaker 1: where he was standing at that window was blocked off
Speaker 1: with a large piece of plexiglass and nobody was allowed
Speaker 1: to go near it, right, and I'll.
Speaker 2: Actually get a good view of what his view would
Speaker 2: be exactly Deally Plaza.
Speaker 1: Ridiculous, Yes, And you're just like, there's a reason for that,
Speaker 1: because they know that people that are experts are gonna
Speaker 1: go up there and take pictures and measurements and optics
Speaker 1: or whatever they're gonna do and be like, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: that didn't happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And even they say the way that the Secret
Speaker 2: Service reacted to it at the time, slowing down after
Speaker 2: they thought there was a threat versus speeding up. I
Speaker 2: mean there are people you guys went there obviously. My
Speaker 2: parents used to live in Dallas. Oh, my dad took me,
Speaker 2: and he was just all over the place loved this,
Speaker 2: and he was talking about how there were so many
Speaker 2: discrepancies and now there are all these people on that area,
Speaker 2: in that area who will show you kind of what
Speaker 2: you were saying, like trajectories of actually he was hit
Speaker 2: by more than one bullet from more than one angle.
Speaker 2: Then they slowed down to sort of let it happen,
Speaker 2: and then they sped off. It was just wild and
Speaker 2: then of course conveniently leave Harvey Oswald is killed before.
Speaker 1: He got talk, which was which was so outrageous, right, Like,
Speaker 1: you have the most wanted man right now in custody
Speaker 1: and you're just like letting him walk around like that.
Speaker 1: You just can't even believe this stuff is true. But see, but.
Speaker 2: Like people are saying, Tyler Robinson could be.
Speaker 1: It's yeah exactly. But even think about the jewel heist
Speaker 1: that just happened, Jake, You're just like, this is still
Speaker 1: happening that You're just like, how is this possible that that,
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five, with such things that should be protected,
Speaker 1: that somebody was able to just go get it right.
Speaker 3: It didn't seem that sophisticated at the Louver, No, it
Speaker 3: was just you know, it seemed very amateur hour, but
Speaker 3: they were able to get all these priceless jewels. You know,
Speaker 3: they immediately took all the jewels out and sold them off.
Speaker 3: They're already gone. It's not the same as trying to
Speaker 3: move artwork.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean a lot of people are saying
Speaker 2: this hints at an inside job with the because it
Speaker 2: was such a cake walking broad daylight. Yeah, so ridiculous.
Speaker 2: There are other cases that we wanted to talk about too,
Speaker 2: and one of them, well, actually, what did you guys
Speaker 2: what cases have been on your minds lately?
Speaker 3: But what have we been covering the most recently?
Speaker 1: Well, we listen. We I don't know what happened last
Speaker 1: week that Sylvia Brown the psychic has been making the
Speaker 1: rounds on social media. Still alive, No, she's dead.
Speaker 3: Well, she's an internet sensation as of last week. I
Speaker 3: woke up one morning she had sent me twelve videos
Speaker 3: of horrible things she was saying people, and then Etel
Speaker 3: did a skin of her that weekend.
Speaker 1: It was so weird. So I was like, oh, we
Speaker 1: gotta we gotta dig into this because it's like you're
Speaker 1: around my age, right, So it's like that just it
Speaker 1: reminds me of you know, you get home from school
Speaker 1: and it was on at that weird like three o'clock
Speaker 1: hour that nobody's really home except moms or something, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like only certain people were seeing that,
Speaker 1: and now you look at it and you're like, this
Speaker 1: lady was so outrageous the stuff she was saying, like
Speaker 1: the mental harm she was probably causing on people. Like
Speaker 1: there was a woman that was saying that she was
Speaker 1: having problems struggling with fertility, and she was like, well,
Speaker 1: I ever have my own child and she's like no,
Speaker 1: Well what about Like it's so messed up, and you're like,
Speaker 1: that's terrible.
Speaker 2: What if just what if she really is psychic and
Speaker 2: she really did get that information was just passing it
Speaker 2: on because she was very like blunt about a lot
Speaker 2: of things, ridicular death those I sure didn't I think
Speaker 2: that's right said.
Speaker 3: And then she was gaslighting a woman whose husband died
Speaker 3: in nine to eleven that he actually drowned and she's like, no,
Speaker 3: he was a firefighter. At nine to eleven. She co going, no,
Speaker 3: he drowned.
Speaker 1: She's like, I keep seeing him in water. And then
Speaker 1: she was like maybe it was the hose and I
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, it's the first reported fire, you know,
Speaker 1: drowning from a fire hose hose.
Speaker 4: Oh lord.
Speaker 1: But by the way, that the cause of death in
Speaker 1: those cases was like a blunt trauma building collapse, not
Speaker 1: like was there fires being put out? Really, I'm sure
Speaker 1: there were, but like we all saw what happened, right, So.
Speaker 3: And then we have the case. Do you know about
Speaker 3: the fake pregnancy scandal that's taking over TikTok right now?
Speaker 2: I don't, but Diamond is nodding her head, yes, So
Speaker 2: please and for me.
Speaker 3: This girl named Kia Cousins allegedly faked her well, not
Speaker 3: even allegedly. There's a bunch of videos and stuff. She
Speaker 3: faked a pregnancy by wearing a fake belly. She was
Speaker 3: giving her family ultrasound pictures, videos of the baby kicking.
Speaker 3: She even said the baby had a heart defect that
Speaker 3: won doctor's appointment. So then all of a sudden, she
Speaker 3: gets mad at the baby's father and decides he's not
Speaker 3: going to be in the hospital room when she gives birth.
Speaker 3: So I said, red flag right there, because even if
Speaker 3: you really don't want your partner in there or whatever,
Speaker 3: somebody's gonna come visit you at the hospital.
Speaker 2: So she has this.
Speaker 3: Baby allegedly, and then her it comes time for her
Speaker 3: family to beat it and they're holding this child and
Speaker 3: they're like, oh, the baby's cold, it's not moving, it's
Speaker 3: not breathing.
Speaker 4: It was a doll.
Speaker 2: Oh God, thank god. I thought, okay, okay, So she
Speaker 2: is clearly unwell mentally, yes, right, what where did this
Speaker 2: come from? What did she think she was gonna be
Speaker 2: able to pull off with all of this? Like, we
Speaker 2: just does nobody know that you're pregnant? If your face,
Speaker 2: I guess, if you're not that close and people aren't
Speaker 2: touching you, what do I know?
Speaker 1: To me?
Speaker 4: Though?
Speaker 3: I saw a video from her baby shower and you
Speaker 3: can see the strap of the fake belly and saying,
Speaker 3: why is nobody questioning this?
Speaker 1: Because it's weird?
Speaker 3: And then you like this is remember this.
Speaker 1: Girl a couple months ago lake and Snelling. Her name
Speaker 1: was she was a cheerleader at a university who gave
Speaker 1: birth and put the baby in a closet, and the
Speaker 1: baby was found dead in a bag in her closet.
Speaker 1: So when when you go back and look at pictures
Speaker 1: that she was posting on social media, any person in
Speaker 1: the world she was a cheerleader. You could tell that
Speaker 1: her body was cheerleader. It wasn't like, you know, my
Speaker 1: she had a cheerleader body. And then all of a
Speaker 1: sudden she she looked pregnant, like a pregnant person, and
Speaker 1: no one around her said anything, but like, I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure everybody thought they thought it. It's just like there's
Speaker 1: certain things you just don't say out left right right.
Speaker 1: One of them is like, is that bump fake? One
Speaker 1: of them is are you pregnant if you're just fat?
Speaker 5: Right? Like?
Speaker 1: So I think that that's what it had to do with,
Speaker 1: like people saw it, but they just.
Speaker 3: It's the same with cancer fakers too, write cancer fakers. Yeah,
Speaker 3: a lot of people do it, but it's one thing
Speaker 3: you're never gonna doubt that somebody actually, would you know,
Speaker 3: have an illness like that or go to the lengths
Speaker 3: and make something up, because if you did, you're really
Speaker 3: horrible person. Then people don't want to accept that. So
Speaker 3: I think it's kind of the same thing. One of
Speaker 3: her friends was saying she was a pathological liar and
Speaker 3: she suspected it was fake, but nobody wanted to say anything.
Speaker 3: They didn't want to be that person.
Speaker 2: Did you guys. Ever watch the documentary. I'm looking up
Speaker 2: exactly what the girl's name was.
Speaker 3: Mel Lanson.
Speaker 2: No, oh yeah, Bel Gibson, Yes, yes, the worst influencer
Speaker 2: in the world. He told everyone she had brain cancer,
Speaker 2: and it just floated through so many different and balances
Speaker 2: where it should have been stopped, including Apple. They gave
Speaker 2: her a whole app at the app store because she
Speaker 2: told everyone she ate her way and lived a healthy
Speaker 2: lifestyle and somehow got out of brain cancer. And it
Speaker 2: took one of her friends being like, I don't know, man,
Speaker 2: where'd you go to the hospital? Like, which hospital did
Speaker 2: you go to? Yes, who's your doctor? She's out here
Speaker 2: saying doctor Phil and that was it. And then they
Speaker 2: start asking specialists while you know, if she said it's
Speaker 2: in her spleen from her brain, and as you would know, Nicole, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: that's not really something that apparently happens. And if it
Speaker 2: has gotten that far in any way, whichever direction it
Speaker 2: was traveling, you would be riddled and nearly dead if
Speaker 2: it got that far right, but it doesn't even happen
Speaker 2: that way.
Speaker 3: Well, I wonder if they have any confirmed people that
Speaker 3: have died after using her method, since she swore it
Speaker 3: worked and cured her.
Speaker 2: That's what I That was the whole thing that we
Speaker 2: were talking about too, because how irresponsible, yes, for everyone
Speaker 2: to just take somebody's word and go with it.
Speaker 3: She was a pretty good businesswoman actually, but maybe she
Speaker 3: just you know, was inspired by a different idea, had
Speaker 3: a different story behind her business. I think she still
Speaker 3: could have been very successful and some front, but instead
Speaker 3: she just went on this crazy path of lying her
Speaker 3: whole life.
Speaker 1: I actually know someone through someone who faked cancer, and
Speaker 1: that person, the middle person was messaging me and asking
Speaker 1: me questions because she started suspecting it. And then when
Speaker 1: she was asking me, I was like, Yeah, that's not
Speaker 1: how that would go down. No, No, there's one thing.
Speaker 3: If you're trying to, you know, be like I got
Speaker 3: all these tests and they're thinking it's cancer. Right to
Speaker 3: tell people that, but to actually commit to it, put
Speaker 3: a fake porthole, do all this other stuff. It's horrible.
Speaker 2: I think it brings us back to a conversation that
Speaker 2: we were sort of talking about off the air, which
Speaker 2: is something Diamond and I talked about in a podcast
Speaker 2: not long ago. Mental health issues are very real, yeah,
Speaker 2: and we need to pay attention to them. But that
Speaker 2: absolve people from also being assholes. Yeah, these are two
Speaker 2: separate things that can exist at the same time. Kanye
Speaker 2: West can be very mentally ill and also were he
Speaker 2: completely healthy, still be an asshole. Yeah, And some people
Speaker 2: might argue that about Britney Spears or whomever.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It's an interesting take. And I think people are so
Speaker 2: careful now about not wanting to offend anybody when it
Speaker 2: comes to mental health, because you don't you don't want
Speaker 2: to alienate people, and you don't want to create this
Speaker 2: stigma around it. But we also can't just give everyone
Speaker 2: a pass because they claim that they have a mental
Speaker 2: health issue. That's not fair.
Speaker 1: No, And I think there's I mean, we talked about
Speaker 1: a case on our episode is that coming out today
Speaker 1: or yeah this week about a teenager who killed his
Speaker 1: mom's boyfriend, but not only killed this guy, cut his
Speaker 1: head off, scooped his brains out, put it in a blender. Oh,
Speaker 1: and then you think like, oh my god. And he
Speaker 1: was diagnosed with schizophrenia when he was a teenager, an
Speaker 1: early thirteen year old, and the mom had him on
Speaker 1: treatment this whole time, and he was doing okay, but
Speaker 1: then he turned eighteen and she had no control anymore.
Speaker 1: She said that the doctor had changed his medications, and
Speaker 1: then he hasn't been right since, and she is totally
Speaker 1: out of control of his medical treatment. And then he
Speaker 1: goes and does something like this. And we talk about
Speaker 1: the case that just happened in August with the Irena
Speaker 1: woman who was on the train, which almost had an
Speaker 1: exact thing. That that guy had schizophrenia. His mom again
Speaker 1: was involved and getting him treatment and trying, but like
Speaker 1: ultimately these people grow up and become adults and then
Speaker 1: there's no one in charge. So in cases like that,
Speaker 1: like this guy that I'm talking about that just happened
Speaker 1: in New York, when he went to the hospital, he
Speaker 1: thought he was in a fight with someone, like he
Speaker 1: didn't even realize what happened. He was covered in this
Speaker 1: guy's blood and like he's out of his mind right.
Speaker 1: So that is like a severe mental illness. You see
Speaker 1: it walking around the streets here, I'm sure, just like
Speaker 1: people talking to themselves. And if you've ever seen these
Speaker 1: simulations of people who are having hallucinations, it's terrifying. It's
Speaker 1: absolutely terrifying to think that you're seeing things and hearing
Speaker 1: things when you're trying to like walk down the street
Speaker 1: and just be in reality. So you could almost kind
Speaker 1: of I don't want to say justified.
Speaker 5: But like.
Speaker 1: They're not treated they're not treated well. But then like Brittany, but.
Speaker 3: We kind of you know, the conversation we have when
Speaker 3: we were talking about Britney Spears is do you draw
Speaker 3: the line at well personally? This where I draw my
Speaker 3: line somebody that can function in society versus not. So
Speaker 3: you could have somebody like a schizophrenic person in the
Speaker 3: story you were just saying that that person can drive,
Speaker 3: they can't pay their bills, they can't cook for themselves,
Speaker 3: and they have a mental illness. But then you have
Speaker 3: people with narcissism that are going to work every day
Speaker 3: and functioning normally, but they have a personality disorder too.
Speaker 3: So I think a large part of that is people
Speaker 3: that are genuinely so out of their minds that they
Speaker 3: can't function day to day as a human And I
Speaker 3: think maybe that's where we should look at it. That's
Speaker 3: just my personal thoughts on it. But what do you
Speaker 3: feel about it?
Speaker 2: And which way? What do I feel about what?
Speaker 3: Like, just like the lines with forgiving people because they
Speaker 3: have an illness that can't be treated.
Speaker 1: Everyone has everyone. Yeah, really if you do, you watch
Speaker 1: videos of like you have a d D, you have autism?
Speaker 1: Sure like everybody couldn't be given something so so that
Speaker 1: and and then the personality disorders you have narcissistic? Uh
Speaker 1: what about antisocial and stuff like that, like because they're
Speaker 1: seen in people who are serial killers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like cool shooters.
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2: So I would personally, I would draw the line at
Speaker 2: and it doesn't matter what my line is because I'm
Speaker 2: not making any type of legislation, But I would say
Speaker 2: my line is, are you a threat to me? Are
Speaker 2: you a threat to other people? If you are just
Speaker 2: a person who talks to yourself and walks down the
Speaker 2: street and you don't want to take your meds, and
Speaker 2: that's that, and maybe you won't function in society, but
Speaker 2: you're also not gonna hurt anybody. That's one thing. If
Speaker 2: you are a threat to me showing up at my
Speaker 2: door in the middle of the night with a knife, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's where I draw the line. You don't get to
Speaker 2: just have a pass because maybe you're not well in
Speaker 2: the head, because now your illness could affect me and
Speaker 2: could affect people that I care about. That's my line.
Speaker 1: I think that what about in more social situations? So
Speaker 1: like Kanye and Britney spearits were not talking about like
Speaker 1: them physically assaulting a person. It's more just social and
Speaker 1: family relations. And I mean, if you sit there and
Speaker 1: think about every dad that's ever been a deadbeat and
Speaker 1: a jerk and left his family, you could be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: that guy's had some mental health is so that doesn't
Speaker 1: excuse it.
Speaker 2: I don't excuse either of them, honestly, and to be fair,
Speaker 2: who am I to excuse anyone? Like I said, nobody
Speaker 2: cares about my opinion. But I think it's going to
Speaker 2: be well, thank you. I think this is going to
Speaker 2: be a very unpopular opinion. I think Brittany is more
Speaker 2: dangerous than Kanye. I think that Kanye is clearly a
Speaker 2: loose cannon and the man is popping off. We haven't
Speaker 2: heard any reports of him being violent. Am I wrong?
Speaker 2: Have we heard reports of him being violent?
Speaker 3: I agree with you one hundred percent on that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he yells, he rants, he gives away Lamborghini's, and
Speaker 2: he fucks up his business deals. Okay, Britney, there are reports,
Speaker 2: whether they are substantiated or not, at this point, but
Speaker 2: there are reports numerous that in fact, she has been
Speaker 2: a little bit violent and has threatened violence, and that
Speaker 2: to me is scarier than someone just yelling like a
Speaker 2: lunatic on the subway.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I agree that I do think she's more dangerous.
Speaker 3: And I, oh, no, we need to get down this
Speaker 3: capital again, especially you and I. But this is saying
Speaker 3: on our show, just why you know. I can sit
Speaker 3: there and say, Kevin Federline is every right to write
Speaker 3: his own book and try to get money, and he
Speaker 3: was married to her, and he should get the child's
Speaker 3: wort because he is the father and he is raising
Speaker 3: her kids and everything. But at the same time, she's
Speaker 3: so mentally unwell that it comes across his exploitation in
Speaker 3: a way. Because I'm seeing it as these kids grew
Speaker 3: up with this totally unstable mother in their life, and
Speaker 3: why just add fuel to the fire. They know how
Speaker 3: bad she is in the world knows how bad she is.
Speaker 3: We don't need to know she did cocaine and breast
Speaker 3: better kids. I think we could all assume she I
Speaker 3: want to know.
Speaker 1: Also, like Kevin Federline hasn't had the best reputation this
Speaker 1: entire time, and like I was like, that dude seems
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what's going on behind the scenes,
Speaker 1: but from the appearances, it seems that he's a decent dude.
Speaker 1: Like he took his kids out of a situation that
Speaker 1: that lady would be. Anybody if she lived in your neighborhood,
Speaker 1: you'd be like that bitch is whack, Like, don't let
Speaker 1: your kids near her, right, Like, he took them far
Speaker 1: away and like tried to raise them in a normal
Speaker 1: as normal of a life as possible.
Speaker 2: We didn't see a lot or hear a lot from
Speaker 2: them when.
Speaker 1: They're kids, and they were just they were just trying
Speaker 1: to be I mean, how can you possibly grow up
Speaker 1: normal in that situation? So I think that he wanted
Speaker 1: to be like, no, let me tell you what was
Speaker 1: really going down this whole time.
Speaker 3: I just think when she talks badly about him, like
Speaker 3: I see it as like I don't accept what she
Speaker 3: says in some regard because of her condition. So I
Speaker 3: think a lot of people are defending it as he's
Speaker 3: coming out defending himself, and I understand that, and he
Speaker 3: has a right to do that. I'm just saying I
Speaker 3: don't really agree with the way in which he's going
Speaker 3: about it.
Speaker 2: Okay, I can understand that. I just I think in
Speaker 2: all of this he has been pretty quiet, and he
Speaker 2: did take those kids and go away and raise them
Speaker 2: and was fairly quiet for a very long time. And
Speaker 2: I think in a very interesting way, there are some
Speaker 2: gender biases here, because if Brittany was the dad Kevin
Speaker 2: was the mom, everyone would be applauding him and saying like, yes, girls,
Speaker 2: speak your truth, like tell us what's going on, and
Speaker 2: they would have I mean, Nicole to your point too.
Speaker 2: If that was the dad that lived in the neighborhood,
Speaker 2: everyone would be like, that guy should not have custody
Speaker 2: of these kids. This dude is a loose cannon. But
Speaker 2: I think because it's a very beloved pop star and
Speaker 2: it's a woman versus a man, there are some differences
Speaker 2: there that people are just sort of overlooking. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's a wild thing that's happening in all this.
Speaker 2: Everybody was so quick to say free Brittany, and then
Speaker 2: when she was free, it was not who's taking care
Speaker 2: of her? All the people who were yelling at they're
Speaker 2: not there for her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do, I mean, listen, like I'm compassionate.
Speaker 1: I feel terrible for her. I feel like, yeah, they
Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about when that Baby One
Speaker 1: More Time video came out, she was sixteen, and they
Speaker 1: were just like making her like school girl like effable, right,
Speaker 1: Like that's what the vibe was.
Speaker 2: Weird. It's so weird.
Speaker 1: Like it's just weird, and and like she blew up
Speaker 1: so much, and and then it's like she got pregnant
Speaker 1: and had these kids and then like went back out
Speaker 1: on stage and her body wasn't that like weirdly flat
Speaker 1: belly I've never had in my whole life, by the way,
Speaker 1: but but like that inverted like she looked like, okay,
Speaker 1: she don't have organs. Yeah, yeah, she had that look before.
Speaker 1: And then everybody she never got quite where she was
Speaker 1: before that, And how do you like, it's a lot
Speaker 1: for a young person to go through, and then on
Speaker 1: top of that, you're dealing with possibly just like postpartum depression,
Speaker 1: which people get, and the whole and then you're doing
Speaker 1: drugs on top of it, which isn't how if you
Speaker 1: are doing drugs, but I and everybody around her is
Speaker 1: using her because of her commodity. It's it's terrible, but
Speaker 1: she like, that's not these boys' fault.
Speaker 2: No, it's not. The whole thing is. It's very sad.
Speaker 2: It's a sad situation, all of it. And I, like
Speaker 2: I said, I'm not an expert. My opinion doesn't really matter.
Speaker 2: I just think it's very interesting to watch how all
Speaker 2: of these things unfold, the differences that people kind of
Speaker 2: assign to certain things.
Speaker 1: And if you want to go back to Kanye for example,
Speaker 1: like so let's say he's just like a normal dude
Speaker 1: living with mental illness, he could have been like totally fine,
Speaker 1: like as if he was like a commoner like us, Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: But like, I mean, he's got some points as far
Speaker 1: as that family goes as far in my opinion, like
Speaker 1: they don't live like normal people. They have this very
Speaker 1: anti man thing going on over there that they don't
Speaker 1: seem to really respect a man's role in life. I
Speaker 1: personally feel that way.
Speaker 2: I don't watch it, so I can't weigh in on that.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 1: I just think that there's it's a lot of like
Speaker 1: we don't need you here kind of a vibe, and
Speaker 1: I feel like it's just I don't know, they did
Speaker 1: it to they did it to Chris Jenner like or
Speaker 1: Caitlyn Jenner. I just got that vibe when I did
Speaker 1: watch it when I was younger, that he was just
Speaker 1: and they're along for the ride and they.
Speaker 3: You're the sperm downer. We run the show.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And and like I think that the sexualization thing
Speaker 1: and the kid, like that kid is my daughter's age exactly.
Speaker 1: They were born within a couple months of each other
Speaker 1: in Northwest. Okay, that kid has a phone. My daughter
Speaker 1: doesn't have a phone. The kid's on TikTok doing videos.
Speaker 1: It's just like like you're you're putting this kid out
Speaker 1: there that's not ready to handle what's about to come
Speaker 1: with that. People call her fat, like she doesn't even
Speaker 1: need that in her life. So and then they're divorced,
Speaker 1: so he has no control over any of it. And
Speaker 1: I and I do think that from multiple father's perspectives
Speaker 1: that when they're watching their kid get raised from afar,
Speaker 1: that that is, you know, a point of stress. All
Speaker 1: I'm trying to say is like that is inducing his
Speaker 1: his mental condition further, like those kinds of triggers, I
Speaker 1: would say.
Speaker 2: So, this is interesting that we're talking about this in
Speaker 2: this episode right now, because last week on my podcast,
Speaker 2: I had a guy named Nico balasteroson who did six
Speaker 2: years with Kanye West, and all he did was film.
Speaker 2: He created this documentary from three thousand hours of footage.
Speaker 2: He boiled it down to like an hour and forty
Speaker 2: four minutes, and in it you see some very interesting things,
Speaker 2: some really sad things. But I got almost the opposite
Speaker 2: impression of Kim Kardashian and how she was treating Kanye
Speaker 2: and Diamond. You do watch the show, right, Do you
Speaker 2: have something to say about this and how they treat
Speaker 2: men and how because I can't speak on it, but
Speaker 2: I can't speak on his Nico Nico in a second,
Speaker 2: So what are your thoughts.
Speaker 5: My thoughts on Caitlyn Jenner at the time, I think
Speaker 5: that he kind of gave up his I guess male
Speaker 5: role in his relationship with Chris early on, Like she
Speaker 5: was his manager and she was the reason why he
Speaker 5: was making money at that point because she was booking
Speaker 5: him all of his like speaking engagements, which they said
Speaker 5: was their main income as a family. And I think
Speaker 5: he kind of like you could see that he was defeated.
Speaker 5: He didn't really like she ran the show, but also
Speaker 5: like she was his boss technically too, So I feel
Speaker 5: like that could have been the reason why.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and in that case, you know what I mean. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And she was going through all the gender stuff, like
Speaker 1: there was a lot of stuff going on too, Like
Speaker 1: I don't know, I just I don't. It just seems
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of like you don't see like
Speaker 1: every one of them has kids. The dad's not around,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like, it's just it's just
Speaker 1: something that I've taken note of and like, listen half
Speaker 1: of couple's break up and this and that, so that's
Speaker 1: what's going on. But it's just kind of it's just
Speaker 1: interesting to me to look at.
Speaker 2: It's definitely, I mean, I know people talk about it
Speaker 2: all the time. They always say the Kardashians are man ruiners.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, look at what they've done to these guys,
Speaker 2: And they do seem to not have the fathers around
Speaker 2: in a lot of this. But in this documentary that
Speaker 2: this guy Nico did, I saw a very different version
Speaker 2: of Kim Kardashian than anything I expected. And and I'm
Speaker 2: saying that again from not watching the show, kind of
Speaker 2: only gleaning a little bits from pop culture. She was
Speaker 2: very patient with him, and she was very loving toward him,
Speaker 2: and when he would be freaking out and doing his
Speaker 2: you know, very crazy little having his episodes in his spirals,
Speaker 2: she would try her hardest to calm him down, to
Speaker 2: try and talk to him sensibly, and to work with
Speaker 2: him going through all of this, and it seemed like,
Speaker 2: not seemed like what her final straw was when he
Speaker 2: started going off and talking about how she wanted to
Speaker 2: have an abortion with North, and that's when Kim was
Speaker 2: finally like, you know what this is it, I'm not
Speaker 2: going to take this abuse anymore from you verbally, I'm
Speaker 2: not going to deal with this anymore. And I was
Speaker 2: very surprised by that because it seemed to me I
Speaker 2: had the same impression as you about the whole family
Speaker 2: and from not really watching. If you guys watched it more,
Speaker 2: you would have a better grasp on it. But I
Speaker 2: think they are interesting. It's an interesting group of people
Speaker 2: over there, and it is maybe that they are man ruiners,
Speaker 2: or maybe that they're just bad at choosing people to
Speaker 2: be in their lives as father figures, because from what
Speaker 2: we know about Chloe Diamond, correct me if I'm wrong,
Speaker 2: she's a lover girl, and she's been cheated on by
Speaker 2: like every single dude who came around. But that father
Speaker 2: is still in the picture. Even though he did her dirty,
Speaker 2: she still has him come over tuck them in, like
Speaker 2: they're very much raising those kids together.
Speaker 3: So I don't know, I don't think they're man ruiners necessarily.
Speaker 3: I think they have a very particular vision for their family,
Speaker 3: and it's kind of like you're not fitting the mold.
Speaker 3: So if you're not going to go along with the program,
Speaker 3: then you got to get the fuck out.
Speaker 2: I aspire to be that way.
Speaker 1: It could also be like men. Men sometimes can be
Speaker 1: very intimidated by women that are more successful than them,
Speaker 1: very much so. So I mean there's definitely I mean,
Speaker 1: the Kanye West thing's interesting because he's not some rando
Speaker 1: basketball player that nobody ever heard of, like he was
Speaker 1: a really big deal very much So, I don't know,
Speaker 1: and I do I think that his I mean, some
Speaker 1: of his rants online are clear of some kind of
Speaker 1: underlying psychological issue. I don't I mean, like there's something
Speaker 1: going on there for sure, But I'm just thinking. I
Speaker 1: just think that with all of with all, it's Brittany too,
Speaker 1: it's any famous person like the I can't imagine. Like
Speaker 1: I was using this as an example. We went to
Speaker 1: crime Con a couple of weeks ago, right, so it's
Speaker 1: it's awesome, right, It's really awesome. But like when I'm
Speaker 1: a regular person on the street walking around, like nobody
Speaker 1: knows who I am. But then if I go to
Speaker 1: crime Con, it's like every a lot of people there
Speaker 1: know who I am, and I get stopped. Can we
Speaker 1: take a picture? Can can you sign this?
Speaker 5: Can you?
Speaker 1: And I love it? It's great, right, But like I
Speaker 1: was thinking, if I had that every single day of
Speaker 1: my life when I left the house, it would be
Speaker 1: a lot for your life.
Speaker 2: Just you have to move.
Speaker 1: You can't live where you live. You can't go to
Speaker 1: the store, you can't just go to Wawah and get
Speaker 1: a hookie, right, like right, So putting that pressure on
Speaker 1: it because like I've like I got my own mental
Speaker 1: stuff going on, and I'm just like putting pressure like
Speaker 1: that on top of somebody that's already struggling is a
Speaker 1: recipe for disaster, you know it is.
Speaker 2: I think it's a really interesting commentary on us as
Speaker 2: a culture and how we consume things and what we
Speaker 2: expect of the people we're consuming it from and sort
Speaker 2: of this parasocial relationship people build. I'm sure you guys
Speaker 2: watched Monster the ed Geen story.
Speaker 3: So we had covered that case a couple of years ago.
Speaker 3: One was it when we covered cannibals?
Speaker 1: Yeah, we did it. We did a whole entire Thanksgiving.
Speaker 3: I started the show, I saw it was taking a
Speaker 3: lot of artistic liberties.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I kind of pulled it back.
Speaker 3: But I really like the Monster series. I loved the
Speaker 3: Dahmer series. I really like the Menendas one. I just
Speaker 3: think this one was going a little too far. This
Speaker 3: story is already so incredibly disturbing. I don't think we
Speaker 3: need to make it even worse.
Speaker 1: Wait, so what do you mean artistic? Like they're just
Speaker 1: making it more extra than it needs to be.
Speaker 2: Or there were a lot of because I went down
Speaker 2: the rabbit hole on this and looked up like what
Speaker 2: was true and what was not, and there was just
Speaker 2: a lot of creative license that they used to one
Speaker 2: sort of assign him intention and motive behind what he
Speaker 2: did when he wasn't very clear about why he did
Speaker 2: what he did. There is controversy about whether or not
Speaker 2: he ever did dress as a woman period, and if
Speaker 2: that was part of what led him to this path,
Speaker 2: his weird relationship with his mom. Yeah, and the entire
Speaker 2: storyline with Adeline was inaccurate because there's a conflicting report
Speaker 2: of whether or not they even had a relationship, because
Speaker 2: she said initially yeah, we had an on and off
Speaker 2: again relationship for twenty years, and then immediately came out
Speaker 2: and said no, I made that up because she was
Speaker 2: a bit off as well. So there's just a lot
Speaker 2: of like filling in the blanks that I don't necessarily
Speaker 2: think he Ryan Murphy or whoever the care was that
Speaker 2: wrote all of this. It's not based in fact, where
Speaker 2: I think a lot of the other stuff was more factual.
Speaker 2: This seems more like half fantasy, half truth, and like
Speaker 2: a fan fiction version of what happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand that.
Speaker 2: But the thing that was crazy to me about it
Speaker 2: and what really made me take a step back, was
Speaker 2: up until him, because I didn't realize he was the
Speaker 2: inspiration behind Psycho and the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, the Hannibal Electer,
Speaker 2: Buffalo Bill, there were a lot of things that he
Speaker 2: was the inspiration for, and until him, it was always
Speaker 2: ghosts and monsters and goblins. It was like Frankenstein and Dracula,
Speaker 2: that's what people were afraid of. And then came along
Speaker 2: a human that was very terrifying, more terrifying than a monster,
Speaker 2: and people couldn't get enough of it. And look how
Speaker 2: it changed just the version of culture that we take
Speaker 2: in Now. Monsters are scary, but people are way scarier,
Speaker 2: and we like kind of glorify it.
Speaker 1: Well, this is so on point for right now. So
Speaker 1: we just wrote an article about the evolution of Halloween
Speaker 1: and it was really interesting to see. Like, I mean,
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, we had jack o' lantern's
Speaker 1: and like a Frankenstein thing to hang up on the wall.
Speaker 1: And now people's displays outside are like full on re
Speaker 1: enactments of murder scenes to the point where police are
Speaker 1: showing up and thinking that someone was killed.
Speaker 2: And we're just like ha ha yay, and I want
Speaker 2: candy too.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Very bizarre, right, so.
Speaker 1: Weird, and it's like we're we're literally celebrating celebrating murder
Speaker 1: one day a year. I mean, I went to the
Speaker 1: you know, the big Halloween store with my kids and
Speaker 1: there's a whole aisle of knives covered in blood and
Speaker 1: I'm just like, oh, I wonder how the Coburger's victims'
Speaker 1: families feel about seeing this when they go to target
Speaker 1: or something, and it's like, oh, it's okay, this is okay,
Speaker 1: just one day a year. The rest of the day,
Speaker 1: we were just at that oddities thing. I saw a
Speaker 1: little kid just as Michael Mike well Myer's holding a knife.
Speaker 1: Had to be four five.
Speaker 2: See, that's the stuff. II have nightmares.
Speaker 1: But like if you saw a child walking around with
Speaker 1: a fake knife, it's and why are fake knives? Okay?
Speaker 1: Fake on's totally taboo, but like fake knives totally cool.
Speaker 1: Like it's it's getting weird.
Speaker 3: Getting weird out there, right, It's very weird because Halloween
Speaker 3: started as this festival in Ireland to celebrate the end
Speaker 3: of the harvest season going into winter, and they thought
Speaker 3: there was this you know, dulled barrier between the other
Speaker 3: world and they would dance around a fire pit to
Speaker 3: try to scare off spirits. And then obviously with the
Speaker 3: Irish potato fam and they had a mass migration over
Speaker 3: here into Canada and everything, and Halloween started coming over here.
Speaker 3: And then they kind of pinpointed around the seventies when
Speaker 3: the movie Halloween came out that's when our culture started
Speaker 3: shifting into this ultra obsession with just gory things, scary
Speaker 3: things and.
Speaker 2: Killing women who are slunning.
Speaker 1: Yes, it was.
Speaker 3: It's just that's how it just, you know, for hundreds
Speaker 3: of years, was one thing and just very quickly shifted
Speaker 3: into another.
Speaker 2: I think, kind of on the same topic. I was
Speaker 2: just in Salem, Massachusetts, and I lived in Boston for
Speaker 2: a while, so I've been there a few times, and
Speaker 2: it's really bizarre how people flock to this area where
Speaker 2: they killed witches. They didn't kill witches. They killed women
Speaker 2: who were just accused of being maybe smart or having
Speaker 2: a little too much SaaS. They just killed them. And
Speaker 2: now once a year people come down to Salem or up,
Speaker 2: I should say, from here up to Salem and mass
Speaker 2: to go and see where these women died in these
Speaker 2: ridiculously brutal ways for no reason. And it's not a
Speaker 2: weird thing to people. It's just like, oh, yeah, take
Speaker 2: me on that tour. I want to see where each
Speaker 2: one of them died. Bizarro.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and horrific. That's where most of them sat on fire,
Speaker 3: crushed by stones. Yes, horrific.
Speaker 1: It is just like what's happening is weird. The costumes
Speaker 1: are weird, like little kids dressed up as Jeffrey Dahmer.
Speaker 3: Like, I think we've transitioned into this period where people
Speaker 3: think it's cool to die.
Speaker 4: Not me, I'm talking a lot. I think you're right, though.
Speaker 2: I do think there's a lot of weird glorification of
Speaker 2: things now that wasn't necessarily there before. And how did
Speaker 2: we get here as a society?
Speaker 3: Where did this?
Speaker 2: Where do you guys think it came from?
Speaker 1: You should see. I gotta show you pictures of some
Speaker 1: of these Halloween displays. This one person has a wood
Speaker 1: chipper on their lawn with like a leg sticking out
Speaker 1: of it and blood squirting out of it. Actively sane
Speaker 1: people smeared across, like a guy looking like he was
Speaker 1: climbing up a ladder, fell like smeared all over. There's
Speaker 1: a there's one with a man that's smashed up against
Speaker 1: a tree with an actual car that's dented up against it.
Speaker 4: See.
Speaker 2: I feel like when I was little, the most wild
Speaker 2: thing I would see would be the witch that looked
Speaker 2: like she smashed into the side of the house. Yes,
Speaker 2: like that was it and that was funny, ha ha,
Speaker 2: and that was it. You just kind of let it go.
Speaker 2: But now it's like yes, and then the displays like
Speaker 2: the things people are eating at the Halloween parties, it's
Speaker 2: like a brain and the salami is the guts of
Speaker 2: the stomach, you know, whatever else it's It is very strange.
Speaker 2: I wonder if other countries look at us and they're
Speaker 2: like these crackheads.
Speaker 1: No, they do because because like my members on the website,
Speaker 1: they write comments and they're just like, yeah, that it's
Speaker 1: not like that over here, Like no, it's it's just
Speaker 1: really it's just really interesting to watch and and just
Speaker 1: the think it's just okay, just this one time.
Speaker 3: I just think people can't. Going back to what you
Speaker 3: were saying about ed Yan too, it's just people can't
Speaker 3: wrap their head around people doing these things, and that
Speaker 3: that's where the natural fascination comes. And then now with
Speaker 3: social media, when we could get every single detail possible
Speaker 3: about every single crime that occurs, it just has made
Speaker 3: it so much worse. I mean, we go to crime
Speaker 3: con which is a true crime convention where they have
Speaker 3: up to eight thousand people going to hear about crimes
Speaker 3: and it's insane.
Speaker 4: But it's all women too.
Speaker 1: But crime comes very because there is a fine line
Speaker 1: of exploitation versus taste, you know, and it's very tasteful.
Speaker 1: It's very, very very because all of the speakers are
Speaker 1: people like either myself that do this as a profession,
Speaker 1: but just other professions forensic toxicologists, forensic investigators. I recently
Speaker 1: met the guy one of the men who were involved
Speaker 1: with the Boston marathon bombing and the investigation with that,
Speaker 1: which I'm hoping to get on the show. But like
Speaker 1: people are, they're police and investigators and just coming out
Speaker 1: and talking about how they caught these people, like from
Speaker 1: a scientific perspective. And then you have the whole subset
Speaker 1: of people too that are victims, family that speak about
Speaker 1: their side of it, and lots of missing people. I mean,
Speaker 1: people were coming up to me just their daughter's been
Speaker 1: missing for twenty years and geat, like.
Speaker 2: That has to get very heavy.
Speaker 1: It just it's not it's it is they have a wall.
Speaker 1: That's one of the most horrible things for me to think,
Speaker 1: because death is final and missing is not final.
Speaker 2: Right, You're just sitting with a pit this mother, Like
Speaker 2: I looked at.
Speaker 1: This mother in her eyes and there was like something
Speaker 1: missing in her you know. Of course, it just broke
Speaker 1: my heart, Like I just I just can't wrap my
Speaker 1: head around.
Speaker 3: That they had this wall there where you can put
Speaker 3: up information about a missing loved one, and last year
Speaker 3: they actually found I think two or three people oh
Speaker 3: wow for me on the wall.
Speaker 4: So that's nice.
Speaker 3: It's been an incredible resource to have and it really
Speaker 3: does help families. I think that's why we love going
Speaker 3: there so much, because you know there is the fine line,
Speaker 3: but when you're there, you never feel like anybody's being
Speaker 3: disrespectful or exploiting it. Everybody is there to try to
Speaker 3: help or because they're curious.
Speaker 2: So is most of crime calm centered around murder and
Speaker 2: death or are there like jewelry heists and that kind
Speaker 2: of crime involved too.
Speaker 3: They do other crimes. They have a lot of like
Speaker 3: cult activity. They had a firearms expert going over that
Speaker 3: Alex Baldwin shooting. That was interesting.
Speaker 1: And then also what's up with that talk about that
Speaker 1: that this is like celebrities just living the most. He
Speaker 1: could have killed another person accidentally.
Speaker 3: Like Hillary's on my top ten most annoying people that
Speaker 3: I ever see about.
Speaker 1: In the first Hilary of Baldwin, I will not call
Speaker 1: Hilary okay, I think It's crazy that that no one,
Speaker 1: really nobody is seeing like she's still allowed to pull
Speaker 1: off that act.
Speaker 4: Like I mean, I I'm not sure she is.
Speaker 2: Because she got voted off Dancing with the Stars real quick.
Speaker 3: People were like not taking it as a personal attack.
Speaker 3: I saw that she is being extra annoying about it.
Speaker 3: I did see that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the and I'm forty one, Like, what does I
Speaker 2: have to do with anythink you're a fraud? That's why
Speaker 2: nobody wants to watch.
Speaker 1: But we had a question like do you think da
Speaker 1: she played that role to him? And he actually thought
Speaker 1: like believed her. And now he's like seven kids.
Speaker 2: In This is a tough one. I don't know because
Speaker 2: I have very limited interaction with either of them. I
Speaker 2: did one panel discussion with him one time, and it
Speaker 2: was a wild time. It was the day after uh
Speaker 2: Trump won the election for the second time, and you
Speaker 2: know that Alec Baldwin very much goes in the other
Speaker 2: direction from that. Yeah, so he looked like he had
Speaker 2: been up for one hundred and seventy two hours. Oh,
Speaker 2: he was very tired and he was enraged. I don't
Speaker 2: think I got the best example. Yeah, I would say
Speaker 2: that is, but the example I did get one hundred
Speaker 2: percent shore that he lives in reality, So I don't
Speaker 2: know that he ever cared to like investigate. He was
Speaker 2: probably just like, this is a character, and I like
Speaker 2: this character. Yes, yeah, I don't know. There's it was wild.
Speaker 3: The comedian Heather McDonald always says on her show she
Speaker 3: has a really good point that at the time they met,
Speaker 3: thirty rock was going on and he had been with
Speaker 3: Selma Hayek and the show, and he had expressed interest
Speaker 3: publicly in Spanish women.
Speaker 4: So she she thinks I'll be that.
Speaker 3: Yes, she thinks she was influenced by the character on
Speaker 3: the show and just kind of came up to him
Speaker 3: and played it off, and he's exactly like, I don't
Speaker 3: give a shit, you're hot. We could get married. I
Speaker 3: don't care where you went to high school, and.
Speaker 5: Here we are.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't, I don't know, but we've It's funny
Speaker 2: that this is at least the second time Hilaria Baldwin
Speaker 2: Hillary as you call her uh has been addressed on
Speaker 2: this show, because we had Crystal Mine Crystal Kong Minkoff
Speaker 2: and and she was just dying about how Hilaria and
Speaker 2: the Cucumber video is one of her favorite things of
Speaker 2: all time. Yeah, it's so good, And I think this
Speaker 2: is something that like women really only care about and
Speaker 2: know about. Oh yeah, I don't know a ton of
Speaker 2: guys who if you said who she is, would know
Speaker 2: or know any of this background about her. But women
Speaker 2: are fascinated by it. It's kind of hilarious.
Speaker 1: Because you think about think about doing that in real life.
Speaker 2: I think about all the time.
Speaker 1: It's so outrageous, right, you know, I was just thinking
Speaker 1: I loved what was that movie? Alcohol one was in
Speaker 1: that we used to watch a bunch, the one, the
Speaker 1: one with U who was in it, like Meryl Street?
Speaker 3: Oh, Nancy Myers. What is it called? The one where
Speaker 3: that you know, where they're divorced.
Speaker 4: It just came out.
Speaker 1: Oh it's complicated.
Speaker 2: Y oh, okay, that's a great movie.
Speaker 1: So, like social media is ruined or just the way
Speaker 1: things are right now are ruining things for actors and
Speaker 1: actresses because I just don't really care to know about
Speaker 1: your crazy ass life and your and you're weird shit.
Speaker 1: Like if this was back and then in like the
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties or something with like you know, do you.
Speaker 3: Think people knew all about Carrie Grant's innerword.
Speaker 1: But there's like a little mystery and you just watch
Speaker 1: them and you love them on the screen and that's it.
Speaker 1: And now it's like I get turned off by certain
Speaker 1: people because I'm like, ew, I don't really want to
Speaker 1: know you like that, Like, now we.
Speaker 2: Have to make decisions we didn't have to make. I mean,
Speaker 2: none of us were alive back then. But I don't
Speaker 2: think they had to make the decision to separate the
Speaker 2: art from the artists, because an artist was just an artist,
Speaker 2: whereas now you were like, or I should say, the
Speaker 2: art was just the art. Now you have a really
Speaker 2: great singer and then you find out that like maybe
Speaker 2: they killed chickens in their closet for fun, and you're like, well, damn,
Speaker 2: but I really liked that song. Now can I not
Speaker 2: like that song?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: We see that with Diddy, with R Kelly, with a
Speaker 2: lot of these people right now that it's like, well,
Speaker 2: I do sometimes wish we didn't have as much information. However, Guiltily,
Speaker 2: when I hear some things, I'm like, give me more
Speaker 2: of that. That's crazy.
Speaker 4: But yeah, like.
Speaker 1: Like Michael Jackson, that's a good example actually, because I
Speaker 1: feel like when I was a kid. I was like
Speaker 1: obsessed with Michael Jackson from the time, like I had
Speaker 1: Thriller on a Fisher Price like record player. Nice, right, Okay,
Speaker 1: And then these accusations came out and then they were
Speaker 1: out and they kind of went away, and you're just
Speaker 1: kind of like, yeah, it's probably not true. They just
Speaker 1: want him for money. But then it's like, so then
Speaker 1: I liked him, and then it's like you watch The
Speaker 1: Neverland that what was it called finding? And then I
Speaker 1: was like, whoa, this is this really? Is this true?
Speaker 1: Is this what was happening? And just even some of
Speaker 1: the stuff that's definitely true about the him sending the
Speaker 1: faxes to the kid and stuff like even if he
Speaker 1: didn't do anything, I just think that that is really
Speaker 1: bizarre behavior for a grown like a grown man.
Speaker 2: I mean we saw the things we saw him do.
Speaker 2: We're bizarre behavior for a grown man. Doug getting a
Speaker 2: baby over the balcony, being super besties with like that
Speaker 2: little chimpanzee that you have the voice and general the
Speaker 2: way he has to speak. There was a lot that
Speaker 2: was clearly I mean red flag after red flag, but
Speaker 2: people just wanted the art, yeah, and they didn't want
Speaker 2: to think about who the artist behind it was and
Speaker 2: what they were doing. And by the way, I realized
Speaker 2: we were really talking a little inside baseball with Hilaria
Speaker 2: Baldwin or as you call her Hillary for people who
Speaker 2: don't know. She is married to Alec Baldwin. She is
Speaker 2: significantly younger than him. They got together and immediately just
Speaker 2: started popping out, kid after kid after kid. They are
Speaker 2: up to seven is it seven?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 2: They're up to seven? He had kids before, so I
Speaker 2: think he's like the father of ten or something like that.
Speaker 2: And she always spoke with this accent, like a tiny
Speaker 2: bit of a Spanish accent. And there are videos of
Speaker 2: her doing, you know, a cooking demonstration where she's talking
Speaker 2: about a cucumber and she's like, in how you say
Speaker 2: in English cucumber, and then it comes out there. She
Speaker 2: was born and raised in Boston, so everybody was like,
Speaker 2: the fuck, what is this.
Speaker 3: I'm not calling her Hilario because it's not her name.
Speaker 3: Her legal name is Hillary.
Speaker 1: Didn't they name one of their kids Hilaria, yess whatever.
Speaker 3: One of the kid's name is Ilaria.
Speaker 2: Diamond is over here chuckling.
Speaker 1: It's so pathological, right.
Speaker 3: The funny thing, though, is that Alec Baldwin's other daughter
Speaker 3: from with Kim Besinger Ireland Baldwin. I think she's the
Speaker 3: most wonderful stepmother in the world.
Speaker 2: And you know what, maybe she is. Maybe because we
Speaker 2: only get little pieces, maybe we're all wrong and she's
Speaker 2: just this goofy, quirky person who got a little too far.
Speaker 2: But in reality she's just the nicest, you know, most
Speaker 2: down to earth, misunderstood person.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Did you ever hear the voicemail he left Ireland by.
Speaker 2: The way, Oh yeah, you've rude, vile, a little pig.
Speaker 3: Yeah she was, I think she was. Have you ever
Speaker 3: heard this?
Speaker 2: She was like twelve?
Speaker 3: Imagine are you believing Lillian that voy.
Speaker 4: No, I really can't listen.
Speaker 2: I had immigrant parents, liked perc like like they would
Speaker 2: do that to me now for sure. One of the
Speaker 2: other things that we were talking about, which I'm fascinated by,
Speaker 2: and Nicole you said you think that it's gonna be
Speaker 2: maybe an unpopular or viewpoint that you have on it,
Speaker 2: is the case of Ellen Greenberg. And you guys are
Speaker 2: from Pennsylvania. This happened in Pennsylvania. Before we get into it,
Speaker 2: describe what happened here, like what the case is about.
Speaker 3: So in twenty eleven, it was Saint Maria. By the way,
Speaker 3: Oh okay, I feel like I know more of this,
Speaker 3: or when we do the podcast, I usually do the details.
Speaker 1: Then she goes yeah, and I'm like, this is Maria's Yes,
Speaker 1: She's like, what year was that?
Speaker 3: Where did it happen? Okay? So twenty eleven, it was
Speaker 3: a snow day, everybody sent home from work and this woman,
Speaker 3: Ellen Greenberg, she was a school teacher. She goes home,
Speaker 3: she's in her house with her in her apartment with
Speaker 3: her fiance, and the fiance goes, I'm going to the
Speaker 3: gym in the building. He comes back a little bit later.
Speaker 3: The door is locked, he can't get in. He kicks
Speaker 3: it down. He finds her with all these stab wounds
Speaker 3: and a knife sticking out of her chest. So I
Speaker 3: guess for the controversy. She comes in as she was
Speaker 3: brought to the Medical exam office, and they originally declared
Speaker 3: her death a homicide, but then a couple of weeks
Speaker 3: later switched it to a suicide, which is extremely unusual.
Speaker 3: And then recent reports have come out that or they
Speaker 3: recently reevaluated the case and have decided it's still a suicide,
Speaker 3: but her parents have been in court trying to get
Speaker 3: her manner of death switched to undetermined at the very
Speaker 3: least or back to homicide. Four years. They are fighting
Speaker 3: for justice for her because the investigation was so botched
Speaker 3: and they just really don't know what happened. But you
Speaker 3: could speak more to that.
Speaker 2: Well, can I ask one question about this sure? Because
Speaker 2: she wasn't just it wasn't just like twenty some stab
Speaker 2: wounds to the front of her body. It was stab
Speaker 2: wounds to the back of her body, her head, her neck,
Speaker 2: like all over places where if you somehow were able
Speaker 2: to do that to yourself, there was probably like a
Speaker 2: psychotic break or something else happening. Yeah, but they didn't
Speaker 2: necessarily have a ton of information to support that something
Speaker 2: like that would have happened, right.
Speaker 1: Well, it I didn't see the docum memory, so I
Speaker 1: can't say, okay, and I really should watch it because
Speaker 1: I want to see, because I think that there there's
Speaker 1: possibly a little bit of a spin on it, because
Speaker 1: you know, whenever you make it, Yeah, when you when
Speaker 1: when you want something to be your way, you're going
Speaker 1: to do that. And I agree the whole situation is
Speaker 1: weird for murder. I would say women women killing them
Speaker 1: themselves is less anyway, just suicides are less in females anyway.
Speaker 1: But then to stab yourself to death, it's there's not
Speaker 1: many reported cases of it. Although side note, I was
Speaker 1: just talking to people that I know that work in
Speaker 1: another office that said they've been seeing an increasing number
Speaker 1: of suicides that are weird and lots of people who
Speaker 1: are stabbing themselves to death. So it's not un it's
Speaker 1: not impossible, it's just very uncommon. And so especially for
Speaker 1: a woman to do something like that statistically is just
Speaker 1: not very common.
Speaker 2: So this is your your take, based solely on data,
Speaker 2: solely on data.
Speaker 1: Then I personally don't by all accounts, she had a
Speaker 1: good relationship with this guy. There was no history of
Speaker 1: anything abnormal. But like, I don't really think that she
Speaker 1: had a great relationship with him, because she had called
Speaker 1: her parents prior to this happening saying that she wanted
Speaker 1: to move home because she was stressed out or something
Speaker 1: with her teaching job. And I find that very bizarre
Speaker 1: when you're when you have a living boyfriend and you're
Speaker 1: in a good relationship. They were engaged, like setting out
Speaker 1: wedding invitations like almost there. I find that to be
Speaker 1: a little bit of weird behavior that you would want
Speaker 1: to go home with your parents. I think the only
Speaker 1: thing that would make you want to go home with
Speaker 1: your parent house wasn't good in your current That's my
Speaker 1: I mean, I could speak from really like why boyfriends
Speaker 1: and lived? Why else would you want to leave because
Speaker 1: you were having a hard time with something else? It's
Speaker 1: she was almost thirty, It's it's a little unusual.
Speaker 2: There are so many questions about this, and I think
Speaker 2: for me, the biggest question in all of it was
Speaker 2: he did have to kick down the door, not just
Speaker 2: because it was locked, but the dead bolt inside, like
Speaker 2: the chain was on from the inside as well. So
Speaker 2: how do people explain that? Like what happened here? Again,
Speaker 2: maybe we'll never know what. I'm interested in your takes.
Speaker 3: There's just theories floating around that that building in particular
Speaker 3: had a problem with that if you slammed the door
Speaker 3: too hard, it would kind of just go. So I
Speaker 3: heard that recently. I mean we watched YouTube videos where
Speaker 3: like you can very easily kind of get in through
Speaker 3: those things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like and like, so you know, my husband's
Speaker 1: a firefighter and he breaks into houses sometimes because he
Speaker 1: has to for a fire. And I showed it to
Speaker 1: him and he was just like that it doesn't to him,
Speaker 1: it didn't look like he thought that if the door
Speaker 1: was busted open, that that that chain would have been
Speaker 1: ripped off that wall, that it wouldn't have been like
Speaker 1: pulled out a little bit, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So that he's just like, that's not it wouldn't look
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 2: So, I mean, he sees a discrepancy on even the
Speaker 2: reporting that the chain was.
Speaker 1: Actually no, there's pictures of it, but the chain is
Speaker 1: only partially pulled out of the wood. It's not like
Speaker 1: ripped like you would think if you actually had the
Speaker 1: bust open the door, the thing would rip out, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, out of the wood because it's
Speaker 1: going across. It just wouldn't be like slightly. It's almost
Speaker 1: something you could do if you had the chain locked
Speaker 1: and you pushed the door a bunch of times and
Speaker 1: it didn't it like messed the wood up, but didn't
Speaker 1: fully pull it off of the wood.
Speaker 2: So then, in your best opinion, with the information that
Speaker 2: you guys have, what do you think happened?
Speaker 1: I go back and forth because there's other strong things
Speaker 1: like did you hear the nine one one call? Did
Speaker 1: they play that in the documentary?
Speaker 2: I was only kind of half watching. It was weird, okay,
Speaker 2: Like he he went and most likely said she stabbed
Speaker 2: herself or she fell on a knife or thing.
Speaker 1: It fell on her knife, he said, which was weird.
Speaker 1: But he's also like looking around, I don't know what's wrong.
Speaker 1: And then oh, she stabbed herself. There's a knife in
Speaker 1: her chest. And I'm just kind of like you think
Speaker 1: about let's say you walked in here, for example, and
Speaker 1: Elvis was on the Well, use Elvis as an example.
Speaker 1: He's on the floor, dead and bloody, okay, and there's
Speaker 1: a knife in his chest. Are you gonna be like
Speaker 1: he stabbed himself. No, you're gonna be like, holy shit,
Speaker 1: somebody just killed him.
Speaker 2: I would immediately look at Timon and be like, how
Speaker 2: are you.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 3: My theory is that a lot of the coverage of
Speaker 3: this case is very biased, and they don't talk a
Speaker 3: lot about her mental health history. She was on and
Speaker 3: off a lot of psychiatric medicine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what That's what I was asking earlier.
Speaker 3: And I'm wondering if subconsciously he said that because she
Speaker 3: had made suicidal threats in the past, so that's automatically
Speaker 3: where his mind went to.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that, No, that's that's in the differential, Marius.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not saying that makes him innocent. But at
Speaker 3: the same time, it's important to note this guy has
Speaker 3: never been arrested or even considered a suspect in this crime.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about her psychistory a little. So when
Speaker 1: she made that call to her parents, her dad was like,
Speaker 1: you can come home, but I want you to see
Speaker 1: a psychiatrist first, And she went to a psychiatrist three
Speaker 1: times in one week. I'm sorry, but like, that's weird
Speaker 1: to me. When do you ever unless you're having a crisis, right, So.
Speaker 2: Maybe she wasn't. Maybe that was also the kind of
Speaker 2: catalyst I want to move home exactly.
Speaker 1: She was first put on Zoloft, which is known to
Speaker 1: take a couple of weeks to kick in. Within three days,
Speaker 1: her anxiety was so bad that in the sleep, not
Speaker 1: sleeping and stuff, that they gave her a Xanax. Then
Speaker 1: they gave her ambient. This all happened in the course
Speaker 1: of two weeks. She was on Zoloft, xanax ambient like
Speaker 1: it could have just been a dangerous combination of drugs.
Speaker 1: You know, you put someone on zoloft, like they tell
Speaker 1: you to wean on those drugs, and wean off those
Speaker 1: drugs for a reason because it messes with the chemicals
Speaker 1: in your brain. So there's a potential. Like I don't know,
Speaker 1: because I did. I have asked this question several times.
Speaker 4: Have they done.
Speaker 1: Have they consulted any psychiatrists to see if this particular
Speaker 1: combination of drug can lead to an acute psychotic event?
Speaker 1: Like because she was sitting there at the kitchen cutting
Speaker 1: fruit and then all of a sudden, if it is
Speaker 1: true that she killed herself, something snapped and she just
Speaker 1: started stabbing herself. There there were no accounts that well,
Speaker 1: I don't want to say no, but that particular day
Speaker 1: when she left school during the snowstorm, she filled her
Speaker 1: tank of gas. Like, if you know you're going home
Speaker 1: to kill yourself, why would you get a full tank
Speaker 1: of gas? Certain things like that, Why would you be
Speaker 1: cutting fruit, like you're making yourself a salad for a
Speaker 1: fruit salad?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 1: But then, I mean, I don't know. I just think
Speaker 1: that they looked at her history and they found these
Speaker 1: searches on her computer. But talk about the the botch
Speaker 1: part of the police investigation, which is there was there
Speaker 1: was a loss of So whenever you're doing a crime investigation,
Speaker 1: you have what's called like there's a chain of custody,
Speaker 1: right that once it leaves that chain, then there's a
Speaker 1: potential that things can get altered and evidence can be
Speaker 1: destroyed and the wild Yeah, and because they treated this
Speaker 1: as a suicide right away, like the apparently the cops
Speaker 1: automatically were like, we think this is a suicide and stuff.
Speaker 1: The body went to the medical examiner was getting autopsied,
Speaker 1: and they said it was a homicide. But like the
Speaker 1: cops were in like this is a suicide mode and
Speaker 1: weren't treating it as a crime scene.
Speaker 2: They didn't preserve evidence. Now, they stepped all over the
Speaker 2: crime scene. They did all kinds of stuff that you
Speaker 2: would not do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, next day they released the scene that night and
Speaker 3: the next day the apartment got fully cleaned.
Speaker 2: And didn't he have an uncle that was somewhere the boyfriend,
Speaker 2: Ye had an uncle that was somewhere in the police
Speaker 2: department or in the government of some sort. And they
Speaker 2: came in computers. They picked all the computers.
Speaker 1: Up Yeah, there was like there was like he was
Speaker 1: a lawyer. There's like some connection with Josh Shapiro.
Speaker 2: There's like this hole and they called crime scene cleaners, Yeah,
Speaker 2: specifically crime scene cleaners to come clean it up.
Speaker 1: I just met and they and the computer. So the
Speaker 1: computer left this chain of costody for until they got
Speaker 1: it back a couple days later, weeks later, whatever. But like,
Speaker 1: who knows what was done to it? You, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's some big nerds out there that could like make
Speaker 1: bake Google searches, you know what I mean. That could
Speaker 1: all be sure, but it could be real.
Speaker 2: So what do you think it is? What do you
Speaker 2: think happened? You're not sure. I just think the probably
Speaker 2: can't be.
Speaker 1: I think she just wants an answer, I know, I
Speaker 1: just want to know what you think.
Speaker 3: I I just think it's one of those like in
Speaker 3: the Karen Read case too. I don't know if you're
Speaker 3: familiar with that Boston Hell.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I think it's one of those ones where you know,
Speaker 3: she in the media is being presented as a one
Speaker 3: hundred percent mentally sound person that just was found in
Speaker 3: this particular situation. I think the medications and the wanting
Speaker 3: to move home and the psychiatrists appointments is important to
Speaker 3: bring up because I think it makes the suicide option likely,
Speaker 3: whereas when people are seeing it covered only one way,
Speaker 3: of course, it doesn't seem like that's possible at all.
Speaker 3: But I think because of how botched it was, it's
Speaker 3: just impossible to tell what really happened. And I think
Speaker 3: it's the same with Karen the Karen Read case too,
Speaker 3: Karen Reid.
Speaker 4: Fascinating.
Speaker 1: What do you guy and I agree to that one?
Speaker 2: Oh wait, no, finish what you're saying.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say just because I you know, I
Speaker 1: did my rotations at that office, and I know all
Speaker 1: of these doctors who are involved.
Speaker 2: With this case with d Ellen Greenberg case, yes, okay, And.
Speaker 1: I've worked with them like a long time, some of them,
Speaker 1: and I know there and and I just want to
Speaker 1: say that the emmy who recently has just signed it
Speaker 1: as a suicide still, I haven't worked with her since
Speaker 1: before Lillian was born, so twelve years. But when she
Speaker 1: was a resident under me, and she was I would
Speaker 1: consider her to be a good doctor. I thought that
Speaker 1: she was very interested in autopsies from the time she
Speaker 1: was a medical student. I knew her since she was
Speaker 1: a medical student. She's she's always been on the autopsy track.
Speaker 1: I did autopsies with this person, and she was very thorough.
Speaker 1: She was one of the better doctors to do autopsies with.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, like I can't say what she's
Speaker 1: been doing in the past years, but I feel like
Speaker 1: if she looked at it again now, what she's supposed
Speaker 1: to do. She was young, she was in her she
Speaker 1: was in her twenties when that when that Ellen Greenberg
Speaker 1: case happened. She's just commenting and looking at pictures now
Speaker 1: and reading reports. That's all she could do. She doesn't
Speaker 1: have the body, so like you only could look at
Speaker 1: what you have in front of you, and I guess
Speaker 1: this is what this is what I just said to Andrew.
Speaker 1: I think that it's possible that it's a suicide, but
Speaker 1: it's it's not probable, like if that if that makes sense,
Speaker 1: if anything's possible in pathology, anything, there's always a first
Speaker 1: of something.
Speaker 4: In all of this.
Speaker 2: Because it is around Halloween time, right, how much do
Speaker 2: you guys believe or not believe and like paranormal activity
Speaker 2: when it comes to a crazy case like this. So
Speaker 2: my immediate thought and I know this is very KOOKI
Speaker 2: we don't know what happened with this woman. Something snapped
Speaker 2: in her. Maybe something snapped in her and all of
Speaker 2: a sudden it was almost like a maybe mini possession
Speaker 2: or psychotic break, whatever it was possibly for her to
Speaker 2: do this to herself. Have you, guys, ever seen any
Speaker 2: cases where you're like, the only explanation for this is
Speaker 2: something otherworldly? Do you ever think that?
Speaker 1: I don't listen. I used to when I worked in
Speaker 1: the hospital with Frank, my autopsy partner, who is amazing.
Speaker 1: He just died this year. He was Yeah, he was
Speaker 1: the coolest dude ever, old school guy. There was this
Speaker 1: guy that worked in the lab with us who was
Speaker 1: a ghost hunter, and he used to come up to
Speaker 1: us and be like, I want to come in the
Speaker 1: morgan see if there's any spirits around you guys and stuff.
Speaker 1: And Frank would be like, man, get the fuck out
Speaker 1: of here, like it was so great because we're and
Speaker 1: Frank has done thousands of autopsies because he was he
Speaker 1: was in his seventies when he retired, right like it
Speaker 1: just and he was doing them when they back in
Speaker 1: the day when they were doing a lot of them,
Speaker 1: and me and him would always talk about it, and
Speaker 1: just I'd be like, I just never been I've been
Speaker 1: around dead bodies by myself, cut them, this and that,
Speaker 1: and I've never had an experience. I don't want to
Speaker 1: say that like it's impossible, because anything's possible, but but like,
Speaker 1: I've personally never had an experience, frank, never had an
Speaker 1: experience of anything. And you would think like people that
Speaker 1: work with dead people would have the most experience with it, right, right, So,
Speaker 1: or maybe you're.
Speaker 2: So desensitized to it because it's around you all the time.
Speaker 1: Who's to say, yeah, exactly and.
Speaker 2: Your answer, your short answer is no, you haven't ever.
Speaker 1: I just felt that I thought that, Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1: I just don't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm about you, Maria, you know I you know, we.
Speaker 3: We covered Sylvia Brown recently, and then you know, we
Speaker 3: have listeners too who claim they could like talk to
Speaker 3: the dead and stuff.
Speaker 2: And I have a friend who does.
Speaker 3: I it's not that I don't believe.
Speaker 1: I believe does she though, Like, you don't know, I've
Speaker 1: never had her do it with me.
Speaker 2: I've never I mean, I know that the response she
Speaker 2: gets from people is overwhelming. Holy shit, I can't believe you.
Speaker 3: Knew that really, yeah, because Teresa Caputo, it's not Teresa Capudo.
Speaker 2: Her name is Gina. She actually as my hair and
Speaker 2: makeup artist, and yeah, okay, amazing and incredible, but I've
Speaker 2: never ever dealt with her on that level in any
Speaker 2: of this. Okay, But I just hear feedback from other
Speaker 2: people who are like, oh my god, I can't believe
Speaker 2: you knew that. So I don't have my own opinion
Speaker 2: formed about it.
Speaker 3: I I'm kind of the same way, like I I'm
Speaker 3: sitting here neutral, like I can be. I could hear
Speaker 3: somebody say they talk to them, and if they give
Speaker 3: me a convincing argument, I'll believe them. But I also
Speaker 3: can just look at science and be like, when you're dead,
Speaker 3: you're dead, you know. So I think I think somebody
Speaker 3: recently asked us how we thought about religion, and I
Speaker 3: kind of thought the same way. Like it's not that
Speaker 3: I don't I don't necessarily believe in the concept of
Speaker 3: heaven or hell, but I don't really think when you're dead,
Speaker 3: you're just gone.
Speaker 2: I was gonna ask you that the two of you
Speaker 2: working so closely and knowing so much about death, especially you, Nicole,
Speaker 2: do you believe that the soul is an entity that
Speaker 2: transfers from your body to something else or somewhere else
Speaker 2: when you die. Or do you think when you're dead,
Speaker 2: you're dead.
Speaker 1: Well, what it does to an extent, but we're we're
Speaker 1: all living here. Like when I die, my children have
Speaker 1: I have a piece?
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I look in the mirror as I'm getting older
Speaker 1: and I'm like, holy shit, like I look like my grandmam.
Speaker 1: Like it's crazy, you know, it's not like like you
Speaker 1: you leave a piece of you with everyone that you
Speaker 1: surround yourself with, including especially your genetics.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, Like I just I feel like
Speaker 1: the fact that there's so many different religions and so
Speaker 1: many different beliefs, it's kind of like and they're not
Speaker 1: like some of them are vastly different. I'm kind of like, eh,
Speaker 1: I understand. I understand the point of it, because I
Speaker 1: can't imagine going through a really bad tragedy with a
Speaker 1: loved one, and especially with one of my children and
Speaker 1: my husband like it. I'll probably start saying in my
Speaker 1: head like I can't wait to see you again in
Speaker 1: heaven because it's the only way that I would ever
Speaker 1: be able to live in other day.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but like.
Speaker 1: But like is it real, Like nobody knows if it's real,
Speaker 1: Like nobody knows, So it's like it's all an imagination.
Speaker 1: And I just don't particularly do that right now, but
Speaker 1: like I'm sure i'll, i'll, I could see grabbing for
Speaker 1: that for sure. But that's why I think it's important
Speaker 1: in your day to day life to make an impact
Speaker 1: on everyone and not wait for that and have that
Speaker 1: unsettled business, so to say.
Speaker 2: And I think the concept of heaven and hell is
Speaker 2: a really great way to keep the masses who don't
Speaker 2: have a lot of independent thought in line. Yeah, you
Speaker 2: want to scare them, that's great, And it's you know,
Speaker 2: clearly working in a lot of ways, I believe, and
Speaker 2: Diamond and I have definitely talked about this before. I
Speaker 2: think the soul is actually a form of energy. There
Speaker 2: are like studies more recently and researchers who have pinpointed
Speaker 2: like almost light leaving your body, and it could be
Speaker 2: temperature related, it could be all kinds of stuff. Right
Speaker 2: when when you pass away. I think that this body
Speaker 2: that we all have is just sort of like our
Speaker 2: cage while we're on Earth, and when it passes and
Speaker 2: it's done, whatever is in there, in that spirit and
Speaker 2: that soul, it's released, and then you gotta do whatever
Speaker 2: you want and go wherever you want. That's my thought
Speaker 2: about it, because if I think, like maybe matter is
Speaker 2: never created or destroyed, and the soul is a thing,
Speaker 2: then it can't be destroyed. It has to go somewhere else.
Speaker 2: I don't think it like floats into an animal or
Speaker 2: a rock or something like that. But I just wonder, like,
Speaker 2: do you skip off into the universe. The universe is
Speaker 2: quite big, There's so much to discover, And what if
Speaker 2: this body that we have is the thing that keeps
Speaker 2: us here and unable to go that far? Maybe death
Speaker 2: really is that sweet release that people talk about. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's I feel like we just smoked weed. I do
Speaker 1: see do you see colors? Like, do you think that
Speaker 1: you see the color red the same I see the
Speaker 1: color red. Now, that is a thing I've thought about
Speaker 1: since I was like fourteen. I swear, yeah, I wonder.
Speaker 1: I wonder me too, But I but I can. I
Speaker 1: can definitely equate it to being in my closet with
Speaker 1: my friend and smoking weed. That's when those thoughts start
Speaker 1: to come.
Speaker 2: Sure.
Speaker 1: But but yeah, like there's definitely. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: it's pretty definite that you could say that there's a
Speaker 1: soul because all you you have like think about this,
Speaker 1: like just from what happened with Charlie kirk Itz, Like
Speaker 1: you're watching this video of this animated person talking and
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, it's gone like that quick,
Speaker 1: Like that's what when you're looking at a dead body,
Speaker 1: It's just that there's no there's no like I mean,
Speaker 1: it's dead, there's no there's no any energy there. Kind
Speaker 1: of it's weird to say. It's just like when people say,
Speaker 1: are you scared to be in a room with a
Speaker 1: dead body, I'm like, no, it's it's the same as
Speaker 1: as like a chair, to you, a chair exactly Like
Speaker 1: there's nothing there. And I don't know how to I
Speaker 1: don't really know how to explain it. But you see
Speaker 1: it when especially when you see people get killed in
Speaker 1: front of you. Hopefully people don't have to witness that, yeah,
Speaker 1: but but you see it. It's just like like that
Speaker 1: can't it's just gone, and you're like, what is that?
Speaker 1: That has to be something, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: it's different than any other living thing even really you
Speaker 1: know what I mean.
Speaker 4: It truly is.
Speaker 2: I'm just interested to hear from you guys, like what
Speaker 2: your take on that was, Diamond, what's your take on it?
Speaker 2: You gotta come over here to the microphone.
Speaker 5: Just think it. Like you said a little bit earlier,
Speaker 5: you have to, in my opinion, at least trick yourself
Speaker 5: into thinking that you're going to see these people again.
Speaker 5: So like, that's just the way that I was raised
Speaker 5: to think about it. My family is really religious or not,
Speaker 5: like it's more spiritual. So that's just the way that
Speaker 5: I've always thought about it. And I've always felt like
Speaker 5: bad for people who don't think that way, because I
Speaker 5: feel like death is so final, so it would break
Speaker 5: my heart to even think about the fact that I
Speaker 5: never see certain people again, you know.
Speaker 1: So like yeah, so so then religion is for the
Speaker 1: living and not for the dead, Like that's that's how
Speaker 1: I look at it. I specifically remember being at my uncle.
Speaker 1: My uncle, he he was not young, he was in
Speaker 1: his fifties and dropped dead from a heart attack, and
Speaker 1: I remember being at his funeral and just the priest
Speaker 1: we were raised Catholic, and the priests saying, you know, oh,
Speaker 1: he's going up to a better place now and all this,
Speaker 1: and I was and then it clicked and I was like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: this is this is the only way that my aunt,
Speaker 1: my cousins are going to be able to like leave
Speaker 1: this church and like live on the rest, you know, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And and it's it's it's a good it's a good
Speaker 1: thing to have because otherwise, like what you know, some
Speaker 1: if you lose your your your husband, your wife, your kids,
Speaker 1: like somebody really sibling, whatever, somebody close to you, Like,
Speaker 1: how do you live the rest of your life in
Speaker 1: any kind of peace?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: I think it's funny that so many people and I
Speaker 2: will I'll leave it here with the pothead conversation, But
Speaker 2: so many people think religion and science work against each other,
Speaker 2: and I actually think they kind of worked together in
Speaker 2: a lot of ways, because there was a time when
Speaker 2: science filled the gaps or I should nope, reverse, there
Speaker 2: was a time that religion filled the gaps that science
Speaker 2: couldn't fill because people didn't know things. So if a
Speaker 2: church was the only building standing after a crazy tornado,
Speaker 2: they were like, wow, it's because it was a church,
Speaker 2: But oh, maybe in fact, it was because it was
Speaker 2: built of steel and everything else was not. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: you know, my kids having a seizure and when I
Speaker 2: took them to the church, the seizure stopped. Well maybe
Speaker 2: the kid just stopped having the seizure by the time
Speaker 2: you got to the church. So a lot of religion
Speaker 2: sort of filled these gaps until science came along and said, well,
Speaker 2: this is actually what's happening. But at the end of
Speaker 2: all the science we know, there is still just one
Speaker 2: more thing that we don't know. And I think that's
Speaker 2: where religion kind of comes back into it. And I
Speaker 2: think religion definitely gives people an answer or at least
Speaker 2: a feeling of comfort to the great unknown that can
Speaker 2: be terrifying to so many people, which is why I
Speaker 2: never argue religion with anyone. I'm like, if you need that,
Speaker 2: get it, Yeah, good for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah I'm not.
Speaker 2: As long as you're not stepping on my rights and
Speaker 2: coming at me telling me what I have to do,
Speaker 2: We're not gonna argue about this. I want everyone to
Speaker 2: have something that gives them that type of peace. But
Speaker 2: it is an interesting relationship between the two that people
Speaker 2: think can't exist, and I think they totally exist together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that one hundred percent. I think
Speaker 1: that you think about all these personalities that are just
Speaker 1: larger than life, Like someone like Marilyn Monroe, for example,
Speaker 1: just had this this personality that like still lives today
Speaker 1: kind of right, and you're like, they can't just die
Speaker 1: and just be dead like a mass of nothing, right,
Speaker 1: Like there has to be something. I don't know what
Speaker 1: it is. It's above my pay grade, but I agree
Speaker 1: with what you said one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: I feel like that's a good note for us to
Speaker 2: wrap it up on.
Speaker 1: I think so too. Yeah, that was so philosophical and beautiful.
Speaker 2: I think you guys are awesome and I would love
Speaker 2: to do more crossover episodes. Yeah, the time you want to. Yes,
Speaker 2: keep me posted and thanks for having me be part
Speaker 2: of your crossover episode.
Speaker 5: Thanks.
Speaker 1: Yes, the best. This is the best.
Speaker 2: So if people want to find you guys online, how
Speaker 2: can they do that?
Speaker 4: So?
Speaker 1: My instagram is at missus m R S Underscore and
Speaker 1: Jimmy A n G E M I And our podcast
Speaker 1: is at Mother.
Speaker 3: Nos Death and I'm at Maria q Kine and.
Speaker 1: Our website is the grossroom dot com.
Speaker 2: And you've got a book out already and another one
Speaker 2: on the way. Yes, which where can they find the book.
Speaker 1: The book can be anywhere, Amazon wherever. What's uh, Nicole
Speaker 1: and Jemmy's Anatomy Book. I know you're like, could you
Speaker 1: help me, Nicole and Jemmy's Anatomy Book. It's pink, it's cute.
Speaker 1: It's in Barnes and Noble, but it's also on Amazon.
Speaker 2: And it's cute.
Speaker 3: Sorry, but there's inside.
Speaker 1: There are her terrific things inside. You're going to open
Speaker 1: it and be like, oh my god, your.
Speaker 3: Book is not yet up for pre order. You don't
Speaker 3: even have an official.
Speaker 1: It's not I didn't even finish writing it yet. That's
Speaker 1: not coming out till twenty twenty seven though.
Speaker 2: But that's exciting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, it's good. I feel like it's going
Speaker 1: to be awesome. And there's there's very few celebrity death books, actually,
Speaker 1: and this one is going to be a different kind
Speaker 1: of a perspective than anything I've seen. So I'm excited
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 2: And you're covering some of the most sensational celebrity deaths,
Speaker 2: your take on it, and you have all of like
Speaker 2: the research and the autopsy reports and all these different
Speaker 2: things you guys are going to analyze and then come
Speaker 2: to your own conclusions.
Speaker 1: About Yeah, and I mean it's not even just highly
Speaker 1: publicized ones. It's just everyday ones, like people Alex Trabeka
Speaker 1: used to watch on Jeopardy and just like everywhere one
Speaker 1: of them. Yeah, just like random people, Steve Jobs and
Speaker 1: you know, just everybody.
Speaker 2: All right, I love it. I can't wait. So you
Speaker 2: guys started this podcast out, so I feel like you
Speaker 2: should close it. However, you close your podcast by the way.
Speaker 2: I'm at Baby Hot Sauce on Instagram, and that's really it.
Speaker 2: You can find our I love your necklace.
Speaker 1: By the way. It's so cute.
Speaker 2: It says Baby Hot Sauce.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's perfect.
Speaker 4: Thanks.
Speaker 2: I've weirdly enough, we think I'm still shadow band because
Speaker 2: they flagged me as a child predator.
Speaker 4: I am, you are too.
Speaker 1: Oh it's so bad. It's so bad, and you want
Speaker 1: to hear. I'll tell you later what I did to
Speaker 1: figure it out.
Speaker 2: Oh, okay, I can't. I have a friend at Meta
Speaker 2: who was like, oh, yeah, definitely, because you can't put
Speaker 2: baby in Hot together.
Speaker 1: I'm like, give me all bright, I can't this friend
Speaker 1: do anything.
Speaker 2: He tried, and for a minute I felt like I
Speaker 2: was flying again. And then clearly my wings have been clipped,
Speaker 2: but I will not give up the name, so at
Speaker 2: Baby Hot Sauce and obviously this podcast sauce on the
Speaker 2: side along with Mother Nos Death. You can get on
Speaker 2: the iHeart app or anywhere you get podcasts. But how
Speaker 2: do you close it out?
Speaker 4: All right?
Speaker 3: Guys? Well, please head over to Apple or Spotify, leavers
Speaker 3: or review, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and if you
Speaker 3: have questions, comments, and no concerns, please email them to
Speaker 3: stories at Mothernosdeath dot com.
Speaker 1: Five fe