Speaker 1: On the Bechde Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zephim fast start
Speaker 1: changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 2: Happy Birthday, Jamie.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Boom, slam, punch.
Speaker 2: Slap, inside shot.
Speaker 1: Divorce, so many themes.
Speaker 3: Homophobia, so many themes.
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh, mm hmm. I was really excited that this movie
Speaker 1: took place. I was like, I was like, where is
Speaker 1: Kaitlyn going to connect with this movie. There's got to
Speaker 1: be somewhere. I was like, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2: It's the Pennsylvania Connection.
Speaker 1: So okay, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is
Speaker 1: Jamie Laftus.
Speaker 2: My name is Caitlin Derante, and this is our show
Speaker 2: where we analyze movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using
Speaker 2: the Bechdel Test simply as a jumping off point to
Speaker 2: initiate much larger, much grander conversations.
Speaker 1: It's true, and the Bechdel Test, of course, is a
Speaker 1: media metric created by Alice and Bechdel as a joke
Speaker 1: as a goof back in the eighties in her comic
Speaker 1: Likes to watch out for. It started as just a
Speaker 1: one off joke, but has since become a way to
Speaker 1: talk about how and if women are represented in movies
Speaker 1: and people of marginalized genders in general. A lot of
Speaker 1: versions of the test. The version of the test that
Speaker 1: we observe to start our conversation is the test requires
Speaker 1: that there be two characters with names of a marginalized
Speaker 1: gender talking about something other than men for two lines
Speaker 1: of dialogue.
Speaker 2: Or more or more, preferably more often but not. It
Speaker 2: doesn't happen that way usually.
Speaker 1: But there's so much to talk about. It's not the
Speaker 1: b L and end all of any movie. And today
Speaker 1: it's it comes but twice a year, a birthday episode
Speaker 1: where Caitlin and I really get to go absolutely hogwild
Speaker 1: on on our on our choice of movie, on our
Speaker 1: choice of guest. It's a fun time. And this has
Speaker 1: been an episode that has been it's not an episode
Speaker 1: that's ever been. It's been requested by one person. It's
Speaker 1: no coincidence of that person's sorry guest. Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: would say it's been well, Dad, what do you how
Speaker 1: long have you been asking me about This's been a
Speaker 1: couple of years.
Speaker 4: Well, how long have you had the show seven years now,
Speaker 4: it hasn't been seven years.
Speaker 1: I would say at least four years.
Speaker 4: Well, we've talked about this, I mean in your other
Speaker 4: podcast life when you did the Kathy podcast. You know,
Speaker 4: it was a it was a thought that I had that,
Speaker 4: you know, there was this comic. It wasn't for everybody,
Speaker 4: but the more I thought about it, it was kind
Speaker 4: of it was unique first time. You know, it was
Speaker 4: like there really weren't in themic strips. You know, women
Speaker 4: were moms or girlfriends, maybe teachers, but there was never
Speaker 4: like a single business woman. So I tossed that to you,
Speaker 4: and I guess in the case of slap Shot, you know,
Speaker 4: I sort of was thinking of a Kathy thing too,
Speaker 4: because you know, there are interesting to me, you know,
Speaker 4: representations of women and their stories, and that's that's what
Speaker 4: your cast is all about, you and Caitlin. So I thought, well,
Speaker 4: you know, throw it out there and see what they think.
Speaker 1: And here we are, and sure enough, we're doing it.
Speaker 1: We're covering a slap shot and the guest you just
Speaker 1: heard Alan Kitlyn usually introduced the guests, but they have
Speaker 1: generously offered me the opportunity.
Speaker 2: It's your time to shine.
Speaker 1: Jamie, our guest today, is a former hockey writer, current
Speaker 1: hockey fan. Has been covering hockey since the eighties, been
Speaker 1: playing hockey since the seventies when the movie comes out.
Speaker 1: He's also a proud father to two wonderful children, lifelong
Speaker 1: Brocton residents, a Brockton legend. It's Mike loftis welcome. Welcome
Speaker 1: to the cast.
Speaker 4: Dad, Welcome, Jamie. Good to see you, and good to
Speaker 4: see you too, Caitlyn.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listeners. I'm currently in Brockton at my
Speaker 1: dad's house and he's he's downstairs with my equipment. I'm
Speaker 1: upstairs with my phone. We've had a very professional setup.
Speaker 1: It's like we're not even. But he did drive me
Speaker 1: to Dunkin Donuts right before the episode, so that.
Speaker 2: On you gotta have your birthday dunks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true, it's yeah, it's I'm feeling the birthday love.
Speaker 1: I'm feeling thrilled about the birthday. So yeah, the my
Speaker 1: memory of I don't remember when you first brought this
Speaker 1: movie up to me for the Bechdel cast, but you
Speaker 1: every time you're like, I think it would just be
Speaker 1: like if I happen to be talking about work you'd
Speaker 1: be like, you know, flap Shot is written by a
Speaker 1: woman that was just kind of the pitch and it
Speaker 1: stuck with me.
Speaker 2: And you pitched it to me Jamie multiple times as well,
Speaker 2: and I was it was yeah later, which.
Speaker 1: To be fair, it's not a personal attack. That's how
Speaker 1: most of our episodes end up happening. We think it
Speaker 1: over for a good two years, and then eventually we
Speaker 1: cover it. I feel like that has become kind of
Speaker 1: our habit.
Speaker 2: It's true.
Speaker 1: Anyways, Yeah, we're covering slap Shot. It is a nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy seven film is directed by George roy Hill. It
Speaker 1: is written by Nancy Dawd. It stars Paul Newman amongst
Speaker 1: Caitlin Is Oh I learned this. I learned this as
Speaker 1: wearying dad. Caitlyn's horny for Paul Newman, and he's very handsome.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. It's kind of the only thing I'm
Speaker 2: going to be able to contribute to this episode. My
Speaker 2: third for Paul Newman.
Speaker 1: Yeah, unbelievable, focused on men that night, having discourse.
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna be like Paul Newman, oh woo ga.
Speaker 2: I don't like his character, but I very much enjoy
Speaker 2: looking at his face.
Speaker 1: Well, I guess, let's let's get into it. I guess, dad, Uh, well, actually,
Speaker 1: let's get ours out of the way kill it. What's
Speaker 1: your history with the movie slap Shot?
Speaker 2: I only know about this movie because of the various
Speaker 2: times Jamie, you've said, my dad wants to come on
Speaker 2: the podcast and cover slap Shot, and okay, that is
Speaker 2: the reason I know this movie exists, Jamie, what's yours?
Speaker 1: I know this movie exists because my dad has told
Speaker 1: me about it. But I also have we've had Hansen
Speaker 1: brother glasses at the house for I remember where we
Speaker 1: have like I think they're on the table next to you, Dad,
Speaker 1: but they're like the Hanson brother like taped glasses. It's
Speaker 1: it is like, that's the only part of this movie
Speaker 1: that I really knew about. I had not watched it
Speaker 1: until the other day to prepare for this episode, because
Speaker 1: you know, I criminally have never been very into hockey,
Speaker 1: and so it was not a movie that really appealed
Speaker 1: to me. But I knew the Hanson brothers because they
Speaker 1: are so ingratiated into hockey iconography that we have like
Speaker 1: glasses that were given out at a game with the
Speaker 1: tape in the middle and the hands and Brothers specifically
Speaker 1: are very iconic in hockey culture. I think this movie
Speaker 1: is too, but like more, I think the Handsome Brothers
Speaker 1: are kind of the most enduring. Would is that right?
Speaker 4: Would you say? Absolutely? I mean it's you know, you
Speaker 4: brought us some other hockey movies last night. There aren't
Speaker 4: a lot of them. Yeah, you know, there are a
Speaker 4: lot of baseball and football and basketball movies. Hockey. I
Speaker 4: think hockey fans of a certain age says it's slap shot,
Speaker 4: and then you know, maybe another generation would be the
Speaker 4: Mighty Ducks, and.
Speaker 1: You know, I think we'd say more so than Mighty Ducks,
Speaker 1: and then current current generation. I don't know if they
Speaker 1: have a hockey movie.
Speaker 4: I could tell you of a hockey movie, but the
Speaker 4: good It's goon Yes.
Speaker 2: Oh, I have heard of this one, Sean William Scott.
Speaker 2: Isn't it?
Speaker 4: If I'm not mistaken, I don't know actors that well,
Speaker 4: but I think it is. I actually I know the
Speaker 4: Gentleman that that film was based on. Okay, it's a
Speaker 4: true story about a guy who and and the and
Speaker 4: the movie does not really tell the story of the
Speaker 4: actual person, but classic that was okay, he knew he
Speaker 4: knew that was gonna happen, and he was. He was
Speaker 4: alright with it.
Speaker 1: You know, I hope they paid him well for the book.
Speaker 4: Rights that might have happened.
Speaker 1: But yeah, Slapshot has not been a huge part of
Speaker 1: my life. But hockey certainly has grew up around hockey culture,
Speaker 1: hockey ideas, hockey labor. Yeah, I have I like. I
Speaker 1: like hockey, I think as much as someone who doesn't
Speaker 1: follow it can.
Speaker 2: I mean, missus Zamboni.
Speaker 5: I have a Zamboni tattoo, and I didn't notice until
Speaker 5: the end of the first movie the movie Slap Shot
Speaker 5: zero Zamboni's Zamboni visibility at an all time low.
Speaker 1: My favorite ice sports movie, as you know, is Ititania.
Speaker 1: I love Itania. Not a single Zamboni in that one either,
Speaker 1: What the hell?
Speaker 4: I know, it's pretty and you know it's interesting to
Speaker 4: me that, you know, when I sat down to watch
Speaker 4: it again the other night, like and watch it in
Speaker 4: a different way, I didn't realize it was it's a
Speaker 4: two hour movie.
Speaker 6: Yes it sure, it feels pretty long, so so you know,
Speaker 6: there was plenty of time in there for you know, Zamboni,
Speaker 6: tomfoolery and yet rueling Zamboni's.
Speaker 4: Well even just a you know, I mean, I don't
Speaker 4: know if we I don't know if this is the
Speaker 4: part where we even bring in little things about the film,
Speaker 4: but you know, little things, little things that the you know,
Speaker 4: the team does to really really continue to whip people
Speaker 4: in a frenzy, right like you know, parking an ambulance
Speaker 4: outside of a game, you know, before it starts, you
Speaker 4: couldn't have had somebody dress up crazy and just like
Speaker 4: you know, drive the zamboni.
Speaker 1: Naked person driving a Zamboni, Well, it's a perfect it's
Speaker 1: a perfect runch comedy idea.
Speaker 4: Okay, never mind, but you know, an oversight. I agree,
Speaker 4: Jane good point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I felt strongly about that. I feel like Zamboni's
Speaker 1: are rarely included, to the point where I wonder if
Speaker 1: the company simply objects to it because it just seems
Speaker 1: like such an easy win. But they're a very kind
Speaker 1: of flatigious Italian family, the Zamboni family, so I've heard
Speaker 1: when I've tried to contact them. Sure, So I like hockey.
Speaker 1: I'd never seen slapshot all the way through, and I
Speaker 1: watched it twice to repair, once with my dad, once
Speaker 1: without and I have I mean it's so weird because
Speaker 1: I feel like the reason that I didn't like this
Speaker 1: movie as much as I was hoping to just has
Speaker 1: mostly to do with the fact that I historically don't
Speaker 1: love like super raunchy comedies, like they just have never
Speaker 1: really appealed to me. But the more that I learned
Speaker 1: about the production of this movie, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: stuff to talk about. Certainly, a lot of it doesn't
Speaker 1: age well. We were getting dinner with my aunt's last
Speaker 1: night and my Annie Kate, my dad's sister. We've all
Speaker 1: been hockey pilled over the years, and she's like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've seen Slap Shot. It's kind of hard to watch
Speaker 1: now because it's long and a lot of it ages
Speaker 1: really badly. And I was like, all right, so we're
Speaker 1: all in the same page here. But it is interesting.
Speaker 1: We don't cover a lot of movies from the seventies,
Speaker 1: and I think for a movie that a lot of
Speaker 1: it ages not well, there were more women in the
Speaker 1: story than I was expecting. I think more women than
Speaker 1: your average sports movie in general, I would agree, so
Speaker 1: lots to talk about. Yeah, Dad, what's your history with
Speaker 1: the movie Slap Shot? Do you remember when you first saw.
Speaker 4: Well that it actually came out the year I graduated
Speaker 4: high school, nice nineteen seventy seven, which is when I
Speaker 4: was wrapping up my my super average career as a player.
Speaker 1: Okay, give us the rundown. What position did you play? Generally?
Speaker 4: I was a defense defenseman. One goal career statistics one goal,
Speaker 4: one assist, multiple penalty minutes. Knee injuries, yes, one knee surgery,
Speaker 4: one broken nose. Went from there to I coached youth
Speaker 4: hockey with a buddy of mine for a couple of years.
Speaker 4: That was fun.
Speaker 1: Nice.
Speaker 4: When I was in college, I started officiating games as
Speaker 4: a way to make a few bucks, and then that
Speaker 4: all dried up and I went into the the you know,
Speaker 4: there was no future in any of that for me,
Speaker 4: but I still just kind of couldn't quit the game
Speaker 4: and love newspapers, loved the sports section, sports guy in
Speaker 4: there I am, and like the you know, kind of
Speaker 4: the teeth of the late seventies or when there's a
Speaker 4: lot of people going into journalism because of like all
Speaker 4: the president's men, and you know, everybody wants to be
Speaker 4: a journalist.
Speaker 2: Interesting movies are so influential that didn't.
Speaker 1: Really feel like there was an uptick after all the presidents,
Speaker 1: and that makes sense to me.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, definitely, because a person like me, who would
Speaker 4: show up and say, yeah, I want to be a
Speaker 4: sports writer, was like, what that doesn't count? What's wrong
Speaker 4: with you? Yeah? So that's how that's kind of where
Speaker 4: it comes from. And the interesting little side story is
Speaker 4: the reason that I even played in the first place
Speaker 4: was that when she was young, before she got married,
Speaker 4: my mom was a huge hockey fan. She loved the Bruins.
Speaker 4: I think she really liked the fights a lot. But
Speaker 4: you know, she got married, she had three kids in
Speaker 4: four years, and at around that time, the Bruins in Boston,
Speaker 4: who had been terrible for a while, all of a
Speaker 4: sudden they got very good. They had a great team
Speaker 4: and a lot of personality, a lot of fun, and
Speaker 4: she couldn't contain herself. She just she signed me up,
Speaker 4: even though I told her I didn't want to play
Speaker 4: so and you know, by the end of my first
Speaker 4: season playing it was kind of all I wanted to do.
Speaker 1: Nice.
Speaker 4: So there's my is that dot Now. I don't think
Speaker 4: my mom watched Slapshot with me, but but you know,
Speaker 4: myself obviously and my my hockey friends. I mean you know,
Speaker 4: certain aspects of that movie just from having played on
Speaker 4: a team and everything like that just kind of, you know,
Speaker 4: cracked us up.
Speaker 1: And then just just for listener context, how long did
Speaker 1: you work in sports journalism covering.
Speaker 4: Hockey, specifically covering hockey. I would say I started like
Speaker 4: in nineteen eighty nine. Halfway through that season, I became
Speaker 4: like the full time you know, Bruins beat writer at
Speaker 4: my paper. And I held that job through the twenty
Speaker 4: nineteen twenty season, the last the bubble season, the pandemic season.
Speaker 4: So it was a good It was like thirty something
Speaker 4: years and I and also, you know, as my newspaper changed,
Speaker 4: the industry changed, and I had to you know, I
Speaker 4: always said the Bruins, but I found lots and lots
Speaker 4: of other hockey stories to do. You know, here in
Speaker 4: New England and the Boston area is so lots of
Speaker 4: college stories, lots of stories about minor league players, you know,
Speaker 4: draft picks we had, you know, coaches. And one of
Speaker 4: the more interesting things was over my time was the
Speaker 4: growth of like the women's hockey game, which I'm not
Speaker 4: even sure it really existed when I started.
Speaker 2: You know, I just realized I know nothing about it,
Speaker 2: nor did I even realize there was a women's hockey league.
Speaker 1: It's cool. I mean that that, you know, obviously, you
Speaker 1: know a million times worry about it than me. But
Speaker 1: when when I went to Toronto a couple of months
Speaker 1: ago to do a show with your rock about I
Speaker 1: went to the Hockey Hall of Fame, and it's like
Speaker 1: this big, cool, sprawling museum that has exhibits on women's
Speaker 1: hockey and on non white hockey leagues, and just like
Speaker 1: all all of this cool. I don't know, you know,
Speaker 1: it is definitely a predominantly white male sport, as our
Speaker 1: most North American sports, but women's women's hockey leagues are
Speaker 1: really really interesting, and I feel like there is I'm
Speaker 1: kind of surprised that there isn't a movie about maybe.
Speaker 1: I mean, listeners feel free to let us know if
Speaker 1: there is one and we just don't know about it.
Speaker 1: But I don't think I've ever seen like movie or
Speaker 1: show explicitly about women's hockey, which feels weird. I feel
Speaker 1: like there's movies about at least one movie about women's
Speaker 1: sports in most major sports.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, but it was, I mean, it's around here,
Speaker 4: and I guess, you know, in other places where hockey
Speaker 4: is a thing. You know, the youth in high school
Speaker 4: and college level. You know, women's hockey is a thing.
Speaker 4: You know almost every almost everybody has a team now
Speaker 4: in college. And the interesting thing to me was it
Speaker 4: has struggled to really get off the ground and stay established.
Speaker 4: But I will say, for like the last five or
Speaker 4: six years has been a women's professional hockey league. You know,
Speaker 4: where women you know, it's professional, they got paid to play.
Speaker 4: As the twenty nineteen twenty twenty season was winding down
Speaker 4: before everything shut down because of COVID, I always I
Speaker 4: think about, how interesting is that the last athlete that
Speaker 4: I interviewed face to face one on one was a
Speaker 4: women's professional hockey player. Cool, which I thought was you know,
Speaker 4: I didn't know it was going to be the last one.
Speaker 4: I thought I would be going to work the next day.
Speaker 1: But or you would have talked to a man.
Speaker 4: No, I was there specifically to do that.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, you're killing it, everything's going great. No, No,
Speaker 1: that's that's really I am obviously a fan of my dad,
Speaker 1: but I think it's I think I do think it's
Speaker 1: cool that you've covered so many local stories that no
Speaker 1: one that that are not ordinarily covered especially with I mean,
Speaker 1: like I mean, Caitlin, what you just said is kind
Speaker 1: of proof of that. It's just like women's Like women's
Speaker 1: hockey is absolutely a thing, but it's not covered in
Speaker 1: any sort of broad way, right.
Speaker 2: Like I've never seen a women's talkie game on TV.
Speaker 2: Not that I'm like actively seeking out sports games.
Speaker 4: You you would more likely find it during like the Olympics.
Speaker 4: It's a it's a yeah. And an issue is that
Speaker 4: the United States is great at it, Canada is great
Speaker 4: at it, but there's you know, they need more international competition.
Speaker 4: It is you know, it's not like there's generations of Swedish, Norwegian,
Speaker 4: you know, European players.
Speaker 2: I was going to say, like Sweden, what are you doing? Hello?
Speaker 4: I know, right, But I mean it'll come. It will come.
Speaker 1: It will when I write my awesome women's hockey movie.
Speaker 2: So let's take a quick break and then we will
Speaker 2: come back for the recap.
Speaker 1: First periods over, you could say.
Speaker 2: And we're back and now it's the second period. How
Speaker 2: many are there periods? Okay? There three?
Speaker 1: So this kind of works perfect. Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the thing that I thought was halftime, it's
Speaker 2: probably not actually halftime there's like two breaks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's the middle. Yeah, there's not really any like
Speaker 1: manner of halftime show for hockey. There's like, uh, well
Speaker 1: to guess my ms. The Zamboni's are kind of how
Speaker 1: you know, like, yeah, they come out twice and they
Speaker 1: resurface the ice because that's their kind of one purpose.
Speaker 1: And and sometimes uh, you know, kids and also local
Speaker 1: celebs will come out on the zamboni and sometimes it's
Speaker 1: me Staple Center in January twenty twenty, it was me
Speaker 1: one time. I think we should I think we should
Speaker 1: definitely post a picture of it to our Instagram. Actually absolutely,
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty importantly do. But there's well there's
Speaker 1: also I feel like there's because there's no cheerleading element
Speaker 1: to hockey because it's on ice. But they have like
Speaker 1: what do they call like it's a group of it's
Speaker 1: now a gender inclusive group, but it's like a they
Speaker 1: kind of assist the zamboni's. It's not really as best
Speaker 1: of as cheerleading or dancing. It's really just like excited sweeping.
Speaker 4: And there are there are some teams that will employ
Speaker 4: people to you know, stand in the stairways and everything
Speaker 4: and cheer.
Speaker 1: Okay, I know that job. It seems like a fun job.
Speaker 1: I wonder if I feel like traditionally those jobs are
Speaker 1: really low paid. I wonder what the deal is in hockey.
Speaker 1: But I was like, you know, I would sweep, I
Speaker 1: would sweep in shorts. Why not?
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1: Anyways, let's what happens in the movie slap Shot let us.
Speaker 2: I would be delighted to tell you. Okay, we meet
Speaker 2: a minor league, right, minor league hockey team called the
Speaker 2: Chiefs from the fictional town of Charlestown, Pennsylvania, not to
Speaker 2: be confused with Charlestown, Massachusetts, which is where the movie
Speaker 2: The Town famously takes place.
Speaker 1: That is kind of the famous town. Wow.
Speaker 2: Okay, so the most seasoned player and also the coach.
Speaker 2: I did not know that the coach of a hockey
Speaker 2: team was also a player. Fascinating to me.
Speaker 1: Can that happen in minor leagues?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Is that a thing?
Speaker 4: Yeah? It has been player coaches. The lower you go,
Speaker 4: you never know what you're going to see.
Speaker 2: So the coach slash a player is Reggie Dunlop played
Speaker 2: by Paul Newman Albahabba. And then we meet some other
Speaker 2: players like Ned Bryden. There's a goalie named Denny who
Speaker 2: is French and everyone makes fun of him for English
Speaker 2: not being his first language.
Speaker 1: I really like his opening monologue that ends like with
Speaker 1: him just poetically describing the penalty box and then you
Speaker 1: get free. I was like, whoa, Yes, you feel shame
Speaker 1: and then you get free, and you're like.
Speaker 2: Whoa, Denny. We also meet Joe McGrath, who is the
Speaker 2: team's manager because he's not the coach, so he's the manager.
Speaker 4: Is that right, Mike, Yeah, general managers what you'd call, okay.
Speaker 2: Got it. He has the team do fashion shows to
Speaker 2: promote the games because people aren't coming out as much
Speaker 2: to the games anymore because the Chiefs kind of suck
Speaker 2: and they've been losing a lot. Also, a local mill
Speaker 2: is going to be closing soon in town and it's
Speaker 2: going to potentially mean that Charlestown will sort of dry
Speaker 2: up and then the team might have to fold, so
Speaker 2: that's looming over everybody. We also meet the Hansen brothers.
Speaker 2: They have just been signed over to the Chiefs. They're
Speaker 2: characterized as being a bunch of dipshits who bring their
Speaker 2: toys with them even though they're adults.
Speaker 1: They're yeah, they're young adults. I don't know. It's like
Speaker 1: it didn't shock me that, like when they're like eighteen,
Speaker 1: twenty and twenty.
Speaker 2: One something like that, and then.
Speaker 1: You're just like, yeah, I guess they would bring.
Speaker 2: Their race cars.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I was about to say they're not
Speaker 1: hurting anybody, but that's actually kind of their whole fanger.
Speaker 2: But they do kind of they are super violent on
Speaker 2: the ice, and then they would later go on to
Speaker 2: form a boy band and sing bop.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 1: It's so confusing, Like I got that is that's a
Speaker 1: good generation gap. It's like, who are the hands and
Speaker 1: brothers to you? Right, because I'm going to mbop every time.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that boomers had their own handsome brothers.
Speaker 2: It's true. Okay. So we also meet a few of
Speaker 2: the players' wives. They're his wives, such as Bryden's wife Lily.
Speaker 2: She hates this town. She seems to just kind of
Speaker 2: generally hate her life and possibly her husband. We also
Speaker 2: meet Francine, who is Reggie's ex wife who he is
Speaker 2: trying to win.
Speaker 1: Back to know of it my hero, my favorite character,
Speaker 1: Francine Rocks.
Speaker 2: So the team they wonder who owns the team because
Speaker 2: they don't know, and Reggie is like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: it's just a corporation. And then they're general manager. That
Speaker 2: guy Joe reveals that this is the Chief's last season,
Speaker 2: and the players are worried that they won't be signed
Speaker 2: to another team. Some of them feel like they're getting
Speaker 2: too old to like be a valuable asset to another team.
Speaker 2: Reggie thinks that they might get sold and get transferred
Speaker 2: to a new city. He's thinking somewhere in Florida.
Speaker 1: Reggie is such a mess. It is no secret to
Speaker 1: anyone on this call. And I don't care for the
Speaker 1: character of Reggie. Not a fan of his. I think
Speaker 1: it's so like we'll talk about him more obviously later
Speaker 1: in the episode, but I really like especially the second
Speaker 1: time when I was watching it, it was because he's
Speaker 1: such a piece of shit to everyone, and it's it's
Speaker 1: really interesting to me that like his only redeeming moments
Speaker 1: happen privately, Like he's never publicly nice to anybody privately
Speaker 1: will he will say nice things about people behind their back,
Speaker 1: never to their face, And it just like it made me,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it was an interesting character. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's tricky because it's like, I don't think the movie
Speaker 1: is fully I don't know. I mean I I think
Speaker 1: he's like he's a piece of shit and also kind
Speaker 1: of tragic to me in a way because he just
Speaker 1: seems like someone who needs a friend so badly, but
Speaker 1: like can't stop getting in his own way enough to
Speaker 1: ever like have a friend. Like there's so many characters
Speaker 1: in this movie that he almost forges a friendship with
Speaker 1: but then turns on them or is a piece of
Speaker 1: shit to them, or like feels insecure for a second
Speaker 1: and says something cruel to them, and you're just like
Speaker 1: this person is so like it's it's a mess. He's
Speaker 1: an asshole. But it's also like it's sad, Like it's
Speaker 1: like this guy just needs to get out of his
Speaker 1: own way and make a make a friend, but but
Speaker 1: but he can't do it, and it's it's very frustrating
Speaker 1: to watch him sabotage himself over and over truly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So he's insecure about the future, sure of the team,
Speaker 2: and he goes to this sports writer Dickie Done aka
Speaker 2: basically Mike loftis, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Dad, did you feel represented? Dicky Done?
Speaker 4: I do like that he's often well just trying to
Speaker 4: catch the spirit of the thing.
Speaker 2: You know, he says this a lot.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, I mean you know whatever Reggie Dunlop plays him.
Speaker 4: You know obviously, you know kind of plants this story
Speaker 4: about here we're getting sold when you know that never
Speaker 4: was going to happen. Right, So Dickie's Dickie's failure to
Speaker 4: like maybe follow up on that.
Speaker 2: He's not doing very good journalism, yes, because he's doing
Speaker 2: no research.
Speaker 4: But you know he's probably selling some papers, and you know,
Speaker 4: he just it's funny how he just sort of fell
Speaker 4: right into right, right into Reggis. Reggis trapped there.
Speaker 2: Well, he is charming, he is like charismatics. So people are.
Speaker 1: Like, he is hot, so you should probably.
Speaker 2: Be so hot. So everyone listens to him.
Speaker 4: And that's a great line too where there you know, Paul,
Speaker 4: you know Reggie is reading the story. Hey, Dickie Dunn
Speaker 4: wrote it. You know it's true, right.
Speaker 1: Also, Uh, it's it's stereotypes. Uh, sports writers as bad parents.
Speaker 1: His daughter run out and her brother was bullying her,
Speaker 1: and he's like, all right, resolve it among yourselves. Talking
Speaker 1: to Paul Newman.
Speaker 2: I'm doing business, right, now I'm mister business, bad representation.
Speaker 4: I think there might have been a drink or two
Speaker 4: there too.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, he said, he said, go away kids,
Speaker 1: and then he starts drinking again. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: drinking in this movie, so much drinking. Yeah, Dad, you'll
Speaker 1: have to explain the seventies.
Speaker 2: So Dickie Dunn is like, that's ridiculous. No one's gonna
Speaker 2: buy a fifth place team, and Reggie is like, well
Speaker 2: that's about to change. Mean, while Reggie is having an
Speaker 2: affair with an opponent's wife, his wife Suzanne, and she
Speaker 2: tells Reggie that she's been sleeping with other women recently,
Speaker 2: which Reggie uses when he plays his opponent the following week.
Speaker 2: This guy named Hanrahan Han Rahn. That will we'll talk
Speaker 2: about that.
Speaker 1: That'll be a whole thing, because that's it's like, that's
Speaker 1: something that this movie is so constantly infuriating, mostly because
Speaker 1: of regg Yeah, where you're like, oh wow, I would
Speaker 1: guess that that wouldn't be something that would be like
Speaker 1: commonly discussed in a popular movie in the seventies, and
Speaker 1: then in the next scene you're like, well, what was
Speaker 1: the point, Like, if you're just going to do that.
Speaker 2: What was the point exactly? Yeah. So Hanrahan is the
Speaker 2: goalie for the other team, and Reggie is taunting him
Speaker 2: and saying, you know your wife is a lesbian. But
Speaker 2: he's using a lot of slurs and it makes hanrah
Speaker 2: Han so mad and distracted that he gets scored on
Speaker 2: a bunch and the Chiefs win, also partly because they
Speaker 2: get very violent and start beating the shit out of
Speaker 2: the other team.
Speaker 1: Which is sort of like becoming their new Emma Owing card.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yes. Meanwhile, we have a scene with Lily.
Speaker 2: She's still having a really hard time. It seems like
Speaker 2: Brandon is cheating on her, and then Reggie tries to
Speaker 2: comfort her, but in a very sleazy way where he's like,
Speaker 2: come over, I'll give you a foot rub.
Speaker 1: He's so frustrating. I'm just like, she that's whatever I mean.
Speaker 1: I guess the choice is consistent with Reggie's character, but
Speaker 1: I'm just like, ah, these two characters, they both need
Speaker 1: a friend. Why can't they be friends to each other?
Speaker 1: But it's because Reggie can't because he's a creep. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because he can't not be a creep.
Speaker 2: But he's not even the most creepy guy on the
Speaker 2: team because that's a guy named Morris's.
Speaker 1: Oh he's a disaster. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Anyway, so the team sees this story in the paper
Speaker 2: that Dicky Dunn had printed about how the Chiefs are
Speaker 2: going to get bought and transferred to Florida, which they're
Speaker 2: very excited about. And so, with the team morale higher
Speaker 2: than ever, the Chiefs start winning a bunch, although again
Speaker 2: they're playing way rougher than normal. There's lots of punching
Speaker 2: and bloody faces and stuff. Although Brayden is opposed to
Speaker 2: playing dirty, he thinks it's cheap and not the right
Speaker 2: way to win, which.
Speaker 1: He'll sort of like built into He's like, I went
Speaker 1: to college. I'm not none of this nonsense. I went
Speaker 1: to college.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm still a piece of shit who's cheating on
Speaker 2: my wife, but I have morals.
Speaker 1: But I went to college.
Speaker 2: But Reggie is very pro all of this hockey violence,
Speaker 2: and he starts putting the Hansen brothers in the game,
Speaker 2: whose entire strategy is just to punch the ship out
Speaker 2: of their opponents.
Speaker 1: I kind of love the hands, Like, it's kind of
Speaker 1: hard not to love the Hansen brothers.
Speaker 2: They're so goofy, they're extremely goofy.
Speaker 1: Wait, my dad's got some some a real real sleigh
Speaker 1: of a of a context corner for them. But oh okay,
Speaker 1: I love I love the hands and brothers. They're fun.
Speaker 2: I yeah, there's awesome anyway. So, uh, the team continues
Speaker 2: to speculate who the owner is. Meanwhile, this thing is
Speaker 2: happening where Reggie just like keeps lying about the team
Speaker 2: getting bought and sold to keep the morale up. And
Speaker 2: also maybe he's just like deluding himself because he knows
Speaker 2: that he's about to reach a point where he's probably
Speaker 2: gonna have to tire and he's so insecure and he
Speaker 2: can't deal with it.
Speaker 1: It's so I read this incredible essay about how Reggie
Speaker 1: is a metaphor for the men of Pittsburgh in the seventies. Wow,
Speaker 1: and I'm just like, I'm excited to talk about it later.
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay. So then Reggie sees Francene with another guy
Speaker 2: and he's kind of like following her around and calling
Speaker 2: different places that he knows that she frequents to try
Speaker 2: to like see who she's been there with. Very stalker behavior.
Speaker 1: Yeah he's doing I mean he does the same thing
Speaker 1: to Lily. He like jumps in her car at one point,
Speaker 1: like he's just he has no no issue really inserting
Speaker 1: being around.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And he bumps into her at some point,
Speaker 2: and franccene tells Reggie that she's moving to Long Island,
Speaker 2: which I'm like, yes, please get away from him. Then
Speaker 2: there's an upcoming game against Syracuse, so Reggie goes on
Speaker 2: the radio for an interview and he says that he's
Speaker 2: putting a bounty on I don't know if it's that
Speaker 2: team's coach or just kind of like one of their
Speaker 2: star players, this guy Tim McCracken. And he's like, I'm
Speaker 2: paying one hundred dollars of my own money for someone
Speaker 2: to kill him.
Speaker 1: It's such a love bounty. It's kind of fun, right.
Speaker 2: And then there's this player who has given himself the
Speaker 2: nickname Killer and he's like, I'll do it. I'll kill
Speaker 2: Tim McCracken. Anyway, Lily shows up at Reggie's place with
Speaker 2: her huge Saint Bernard dog. She seems to have left
Speaker 2: Bryden and she has a new lease online.
Speaker 1: He doesn't know it yet.
Speaker 2: He doesn't know it yet, let's see. Then Reggie takes
Speaker 2: Lily to Francine's hair salon and she gets a bit
Speaker 2: of a makeo.
Speaker 1: I have some I have complicated thoughts about that scene
Speaker 1: because I feel like that scene's heart is in the
Speaker 1: right place, but it's kind of broadly done. But I'm
Speaker 1: excited to talk about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Then Reggie finally figures out who the
Speaker 2: owner of the Chiefs is and he goes to see
Speaker 2: him just kidding. It's a woman jeamed whit Anita McCambridge,
Speaker 2: and he wants to know how the sale of the
Speaker 2: team is going, but she tells him that she plans
Speaker 2: to fold the team and take a tax loss rather
Speaker 2: than sell it because she won't make enough of a
Speaker 2: profit if she sells the team.
Speaker 1: It's like every single decision, like every streamer is making
Speaker 1: right now, they're like, no, actually, we're deleting your entire
Speaker 1: life and career because it suits me today.
Speaker 4: Fuck you.
Speaker 2: Yikes. And so this news infuriates Reggie and he brutally
Speaker 2: insults her son and then storms out.
Speaker 1: Classic Reggie, He's like, well, I'm feeling a little insecure
Speaker 1: and angry. Let me insult someone who's not here in
Speaker 1: the cruelest way I can possibly think of, truly, kind
Speaker 1: of his whole thing.
Speaker 2: Then Reggie comes clean to his team. He admits that
Speaker 2: there's no deal for them to be bought and moved
Speaker 2: to Florida. That Ned was right all along. They shouldn't
Speaker 2: be resorting to all of this violence as a way
Speaker 2: to win games. And this is Reggie's last game and
Speaker 2: he's gonna play it straight and try to win that
Speaker 2: championship honestly and legitimately. But this is when they're playing
Speaker 2: Syracuse and that team is ready for a bloodbath. So
Speaker 2: the game starts and the Syracuse team are fighting, but
Speaker 2: the Chiefs aren't fighting back, and they're losing. And then
Speaker 2: it's not halftime, it's either after the first or second period.
Speaker 2: They're like in the locker room and their general manager
Speaker 2: Joe is like, hey, there's a bunch of NHL scouts
Speaker 2: in the crowd, so you have to put on a
Speaker 2: good show for them, and Reggie's like, okay, forget everything
Speaker 2: I said. We're gonna play dirty, and then we just
Speaker 2: like cut to everyone punching each other. Francine and Lily
Speaker 2: show up to the game, and Braiden sees his wife
Speaker 2: and he's like, wow.
Speaker 1: This part is where this is where like the whole
Speaker 1: Lily story falls apart from me where I'm like, what
Speaker 1: happened here? So confused about what happens with Lily's character.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know sure, and I also don't know
Speaker 2: exactly what prompts this. But Braiden goes out on the
Speaker 2: ice while everyone well everyone's just punching each other and
Speaker 2: not playing hockey even a little bit, and Braiden starts
Speaker 2: doing a strip tease, and everyone in the crowd and
Speaker 2: all the players are like, te wow, And for.
Speaker 1: Some reason this solves all of the problems in his marriage.
Speaker 1: You're just like, it's very cinematic, but you're just like,
Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense, but it's a very movie behavior.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he does the strip tease and it somehow
Speaker 2: wins the game. I don't know if the other team forfits.
Speaker 2: I don't know what happens.
Speaker 4: I could tell you. So as as Ned is doing
Speaker 4: his strip tease, one of the players, one of the
Speaker 4: it might be Tim McCracken, is furious and he's like,
Speaker 4: you know, during the middle of this bloodbath, he starts
Speaker 4: to yell at the official like that's disgusting. Make him stop,
Speaker 4: And the officials like, what do you mean, it's disgusting
Speaker 4: look at this, and they end up with an argument e.
Speaker 4: McCracken or the you know, the opponent hits the official.
Speaker 4: He which is, no matter how low the miners or whatever,
Speaker 4: you know, you can't hit an official. And he hit him,
Speaker 4: and the officials says that's it. The game's over. You forfeit.
Speaker 2: You know, got it? Okay, okay, nice, okay. It reminds
Speaker 2: me of an air bud when they're like, there's nothing
Speaker 2: in the rule book that says a dog can't play basketball.
Speaker 2: It's like, there's nothing in the rule book that says
Speaker 2: a player can't come out and strip to win the game.
Speaker 1: Right, you can maybe get a penalty for it.
Speaker 4: Play was stopped at the time, you know, it doesn't.
Speaker 1: It's true, so he's basically just doing it. It's like
Speaker 1: that that could have been the the ice sweepers, it
Speaker 1: could have been, could have been anything, and he happened
Speaker 1: to do that. I don't, yeah, I have so the
Speaker 1: way that this movie it's so bizarre. We were talking
Speaker 1: about it when we were watching it a couple of
Speaker 1: nights ago, where it's like this movie in the last
Speaker 1: half of it, like I'd be on board, and then
Speaker 1: it would lose me for ten minutes, and I'd be
Speaker 1: back for a couple of minutes, and then it would
Speaker 1: lose me for ten minutes, and then I kind of
Speaker 1: liked the ending, and it was like I didn't see
Speaker 1: I don't like, well, whatever, we're at the end, basically, yeah,
Speaker 1: but like it lost me during this whole game, because
Speaker 1: you're like, why does ned stripping on ice solve the
Speaker 1: issue of infidelity and them hating it each other? And
Speaker 1: then it seems like well whatever, Like I'm I didn't
Speaker 1: dislike the scene between Lily and Francine, even though it
Speaker 1: was like whatever channeled into the idea and to a makeover.
Speaker 1: I think you can make the argument that it was
Speaker 1: like she was getting a makeover to feel better about herself.
Speaker 1: It didn't seem like it was overtly for her husband
Speaker 1: or for anyone except for herself.
Speaker 2: Because she had already left him by that point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seemed like she was doing it to feel
Speaker 1: more confident about herself. And I don't have an issue
Speaker 1: with that, but it just seems like it's like implied
Speaker 1: that something happens between Lily and Francine off screen that
Speaker 1: leads because I'm like, I don't even know why they
Speaker 1: show up at that hockey game. It's confusing to me
Speaker 1: because it seems like Lily or Francines like getting really
Speaker 1: gassed up to like get out into the world and
Speaker 1: start her life. Like whether that's dating or moving or whatever,
Speaker 1: it is kind of unclear. But then it's like, the
Speaker 1: next time we see them, they're at the hockey game.
Speaker 1: You're like, when did you guys decide to go to
Speaker 1: the hockey game? Why? It seems like the opposite of
Speaker 1: what Lily was trying to do.
Speaker 2: Right, they should have gone out to dinner.
Speaker 1: They should have gone out to a singles bar.
Speaker 2: Right, and then they could have started a book club together.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know anyway, So we cut to
Speaker 2: a parade. The team I think has disbanded, but the
Speaker 2: players seems like they're getting contracts to go play on
Speaker 2: other teams. Reggie is going to go play in Minneapolis.
Speaker 2: He tries to get Francine to come with him, but
Speaker 2: she's like pass. But Lily and Braden do get back
Speaker 2: together in an infuriating moment, and then.
Speaker 1: Everyone I've never been so it on different characters endings
Speaker 1: where it's like I'm thrilled for Francine and I'm completely
Speaker 1: confused by Lily.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but anyway, but everyone's celebrating at the parade, and
Speaker 2: that's how the movie ends. So let's take another break.
Speaker 2: Second period period is over. Is there a big Is
Speaker 2: there a big buzzer in hockey to like signify the
Speaker 2: end of a period?
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's a siren, you know.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so a wuga will be right back. We're back,
Speaker 2: and it's time for the third period.
Speaker 1: And the third period can go on for a while.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. There's no time limit.
Speaker 1: If things are tight, you know. Sometimes sometimes it just
Speaker 1: keeps going.
Speaker 2: Sometimes we go into overtime.
Speaker 4: Overtime, yes on the Bechdel cast.
Speaker 5: Yes, oh that's exactly Okay, I wonder that's that's when
Speaker 5: we do the our scoring.
Speaker 2: That's oh yeah, that's like the penalty shootout kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, Dad, I before we get into the full analysis,
Speaker 1: I'm curious, do you feel that the sport of hockey
Speaker 1: is like does this feel authentic to because you, I
Speaker 1: mean like we're reporting like on the road with teams
Speaker 1: and reporting from locker rooms for decades. Does this movie
Speaker 1: feel close for the era? Does it feel overblown and moviefied, like,
Speaker 1: how does it square with your experience in this arena?
Speaker 4: You know, hey, you know, it's a good question. I
Speaker 4: mean I think, you know, when I watched that movie,
Speaker 4: everything in it from the hockey standpoint is just an exaggeration.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: It's like, you know, yes there is locker room talk,
Speaker 4: but some of the extent that these guys, you know, no,
Speaker 4: I don't think. I mean, I never heard the violence
Speaker 4: in games. You know. Yes, it's a very very physical game,
Speaker 4: and I would say back in that era that was
Speaker 4: more of a factor, that was more of a strategy
Speaker 4: than it is now. And also to the NHL, it's
Speaker 4: like any major sport, people follow him. There's like the
Speaker 4: top level and then there are different tiers in hockey.
Speaker 4: The lower that you go, you know, you're probably not
Speaker 4: going to make it, you know, you might you know,
Speaker 4: move up another level or two. So the crazier things,
Speaker 4: I guess, you know, would tend to happen, you know,
Speaker 4: in the lower minors, smaller towns, you know, smaller franchises,
Speaker 4: things like that. I mean, and that's you know, that's
Speaker 4: kind of where the movie came from.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 4: Nancy Dowd's brother.
Speaker 1: Ned Nancy the writer.
Speaker 4: Yes, I'm sorry. Yeah, So her brother played college hockey
Speaker 4: in Maine, and then he played two years a low
Speaker 4: minor professional hockey league, and he would he you know,
Speaker 4: he would tell his sisters worries about the you know,
Speaker 4: the things that happened, and thus the movie. You know,
Speaker 4: so a lot of it. There's a lot of things
Speaker 4: that are based on things that actually did happen. And
Speaker 4: I think that, you know, for film purposes and everything,
Speaker 4: you know, it's it's amplified and exaggerated.
Speaker 1: That's something I mean, I guess that's like a place
Speaker 1: that I would be down to start, is just talking
Speaker 1: a little bit about the behind the scenes process of
Speaker 1: this movie, because I didn't I know that. I mean,
Speaker 1: the one fact I knew about this movie other than
Speaker 1: it's where the hands and brother's glasses comes from, is
Speaker 1: what my dad told me five thousand times, which is
Speaker 1: that a woman wrote the movie. It was the fact
Speaker 1: that I knew, but I didn't know I actually really liked.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's like it I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I kind of do stuff like that sometimes. Where Nancy down, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like she heard that her brother was involved in this
Speaker 1: what was the name of the team that the Chiefs
Speaker 1: are based.
Speaker 4: On, the Johnstown Jets, okay in Pennsylvania, So that was
Speaker 4: a team.
Speaker 1: Her brother was on. He called basically with the premise
Speaker 1: to slap shot that this you know team was not
Speaker 1: going to be around for much longer, and so she
Speaker 1: followed them around for a month, and she like shadowed
Speaker 1: them and did basically like Gonzo's style, following this minor
Speaker 1: league team around. And so a lot of what she
Speaker 1: saw went directly into the movie in the script, which
Speaker 1: I think you can argue works for and against it
Speaker 1: because it's like if she's presenting in this the late
Speaker 1: seventies that authentically a lot of it doesn't age well
Speaker 1: because it was, you know, almost fifty years ago, but
Speaker 1: it does seem like that was sort of her goal
Speaker 1: in writing it and what she was trying to present.
Speaker 1: And so I went back to the way that this
Speaker 1: movie was originally covered because it was like a hit.
Speaker 1: It was a box office success, people liked it, Paul
Speaker 1: Newman was in it, and it was also like I
Speaker 1: thought it was interesting that it was drawn attention to
Speaker 1: when the movie came out, that these were like, quote,
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to think if there's like a contemporary
Speaker 1: example of it where they were like quote unquote like
Speaker 1: respectable filmmakers making this raunchy comedy. Because the director of
Speaker 1: this movie, George roy Hill, like he directed Butch Cassidy,
Speaker 1: he'd done all of these like, you know, really prestige sensitive, thoughtful,
Speaker 1: prestigie movies, and then later in his career makes this
Speaker 1: super super raunchy comedy. And then you have Nancy Dowd
Speaker 1: who is from Framingham, Massachusetts, representing Massachusetts, but grew up
Speaker 1: you know, like a pretty like upper crusty Massachusetts life.
Speaker 1: She went to Smith College like she was like a
Speaker 1: no one and this was like her first success. She
Speaker 1: went on after this. Two years after this, she won
Speaker 1: an oscar for a movie called Coming Home about Did
Speaker 1: you see that? Dad?
Speaker 4: I did? Did you like it?
Speaker 1: It was?
Speaker 4: It was a little challenging to believe. It's very serious.
Speaker 4: It was like a it was kind of like a
Speaker 4: Vietnam War movie real and it's you know John Floyd
Speaker 4: so well it.
Speaker 1: Works against it. Yeah, it's no national treasure. But no,
Speaker 1: I mean it's.
Speaker 4: Like speaking.
Speaker 1: But yeah, because John Boyd is truly evil. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: but it felt like these prestigiee stars, serious writers and
Speaker 1: directors making this really raunchy, goofy comedy. But it was
Speaker 1: also like my dad. The news talked a lot about
Speaker 1: how like a woman wrote the movie in a different
Speaker 1: context at I'm not criticizing this, but I just like
Speaker 1: most of the coverage of Nancy Dawd at this time
Speaker 1: was like, it's the raunchiest comedy of the year and
Speaker 1: a Woa wa will woman wrote it, and like, which
Speaker 1: I think that we still see stuff like that, and
Speaker 1: it's still like the majority of Raanji comedies that come
Speaker 1: out are not written by I don't think that there's
Speaker 1: really parody. I mean, there's not parody in film in general,
Speaker 1: but I think, especially in this genre, it still feels
Speaker 1: super male driven. I feel like joy Ride is the
Speaker 1: only exception I can think of this year. But I
Speaker 1: read some of the coverage because I was like, well,
Speaker 1: how did Nancy Dowd kind of feeld this? And I
Speaker 1: thought she was cool. I thought she was really funny
Speaker 1: and really cool. She says this in a New York
Speaker 1: Times article from nineteen seventy seven. This is how it's
Speaker 1: set up. Set up obscenity hockey. A woman missed out
Speaker 1: has been meeting so many people lately who can't believe
Speaker 1: that she actually wrote this screenplay, that she is beginning
Speaker 1: to lose her patience, and she says, quote, the world
Speaker 1: has a weird view of women. People seem to believe
Speaker 1: that we have to write about divorce or suicide or
Speaker 1: children so called women's topics. But we've been around women
Speaker 1: aren't sequestered anymore, and kind of just goes on to
Speaker 1: talk about how it reminds me of like how you
Speaker 1: still see a lot of women writers being like, well,
Speaker 1: wish this wasn't the story. Shut up, like watch the
Speaker 1: movie and like it or don't. But this movie was,
Speaker 1: even in its time, considered to be pretty sexist. I
Speaker 1: think Paul Newman called it honestly sexist, which I think
Speaker 1: is an interesting way to come about it. And I
Speaker 1: think I think what he's trying to say, I don't know,
Speaker 1: let me know if either of you feel differently, is
Speaker 1: that it feels like it's more speaking to like how
Speaker 1: Nancy Dowd was not transcribing dialogue but like just sort
Speaker 1: of saying authentically, how guys she was hanging out with
Speaker 1: we're talking and not sanitizing what they were saying. So
Speaker 1: it's like she was hanging out with sexist guys. The
Speaker 1: movie is honestly sexist because she's not like, you know,
Speaker 1: sugarmaking more appealing.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, and you know I would say too that,
Speaker 4: you know, when it came out, you know, and I
Speaker 4: was whatever, eighteen years old. I don't recall knowing that
Speaker 4: a woman wrote it at the time.
Speaker 1: I mean, we just you know, you should have been
Speaker 1: reading the New York Times, well they couldn't up about.
Speaker 4: It, reading the Brockton Enterprise, and hoping to one day
Speaker 4: work for the Patriot Ledger. But we were just excited
Speaker 4: because there was a movie about hockey, you know, and
Speaker 4: it was our thing. Really didn't take it that much farther,
Speaker 4: you know. I was surprised when I like looked a
Speaker 4: little bit more into it later on, you know, just
Speaker 4: finding out like little little things about people who were
Speaker 4: in the movie. You know that that got me to look,
Speaker 4: you know, behind this, not behind the scenes, but behind
Speaker 4: the story, and it was like, you know, the only
Speaker 4: thing was like, oh, a woman wrote it. I guess,
Speaker 4: you know. My not reaction to that, but like the
Speaker 4: way I I might come off that way is like
Speaker 4: like if her brother wrote the movie, it'd be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 4: of course, you know, like all that dialogue, this and that,
Speaker 4: and it just it just you know, it just wouldn't
Speaker 4: have seemed you know, it's so raunchy. Like I'm not
Speaker 4: saying like anybody can't be raunchy, but it's like, you
Speaker 4: know that one character, you know, Kaitlin you brought up
Speaker 4: Marris is like it's gross, you know, it's like it's hideous,
Speaker 4: like his h you know, I was saying to Jamie
Speaker 4: it was not like I never heard some of those
Speaker 4: terms before, but like so so rare, you know, and
Speaker 4: you know, I mean I don't know, I guess in
Speaker 4: an office, you know, on a team, there's always that
Speaker 4: one person that you know takes it a little bit
Speaker 4: farther or just like is extreme.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And as I was as I was watching it the
Speaker 4: other night, it was like I didn't catch, you know,
Speaker 4: in my earlier viewings of it that a lot of
Speaker 4: his teammates are kind of grossed out by him too,
Speaker 4: which is like, well, you know, thank God for that,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think it's well, we'll get into
Speaker 1: this too, like I I don't know, it's I think
Speaker 1: that it seems like her goal in writing the movie
Speaker 1: was like writing obviously like a movie that people would
Speaker 1: like that was funny, but was also like authentic to
Speaker 1: what she'd experienced, which I don't really have a problem with.
Speaker 1: I think it's more like, especially because this movie has
Speaker 1: been out for almost, you know, fifty years now, like
Speaker 1: it's interesting watching like what parts of this movie are
Speaker 1: its legacy because I feel like the parts that I
Speaker 1: thought were interesting about the movie are not parts of
Speaker 1: the movie that are famous. And also that's like the
Speaker 1: writer has no control over what becomes known about their
Speaker 1: work or not. But it just I don't know, I
Speaker 1: just think it's there was more to this movie than
Speaker 1: I thought, but like the nuanced parts of it aren't
Speaker 1: what it's known for.
Speaker 2: That Plus like, yeah, she was observing the team, and
Speaker 2: who knows, like if she was like transcribing like stuff
Speaker 2: that they said and putting it into the script, or
Speaker 2: if she was embellishing some of it. But it seems
Speaker 2: like for the most part, she's like, well, the way
Speaker 2: that Dicky Dunn just tries to capture the spirit of
Speaker 2: the thing, I.
Speaker 1: Mean guess I guess she's trying to do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Nancy dwod was just trying to capture the spirit
Speaker 2: of the thing, and that seems like the spirit was
Speaker 2: a lot of like pretty losersh guys who are either
Speaker 2: creepy or stockery, or they don't treat women well, et cetera.
Speaker 2: That's just the vibe. Those were the vibes she was getting.
Speaker 2: So that's what she put on the page. My concern
Speaker 2: is that a lot of it is presented uncritically and
Speaker 2: or just framed, like Morris saying all of his gross
Speaker 2: comments about women's bodies and stuff like that is usually
Speaker 2: just framed as a joke, like ha ha, look at
Speaker 2: the look at the team creep. Isn't he funny? Aren't
Speaker 2: we laughing at him?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: So but again it's like, you know, it's the seventies.
Speaker 2: A lot of horrible things we're not presented critically. It
Speaker 2: was just this is what's normal, and it's normal. So
Speaker 2: that's fine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, it's movies of this era are
Speaker 1: always I feel like in that way. Yeah. Sorry, I
Speaker 1: have one more quote from her from this New York
Speaker 1: Times piece. The piece goes on she's generally frustrated that
Speaker 1: the movie was considered to have strong sexist overtones. This
Speaker 1: was something I was talked about in original reviews of
Speaker 1: the movie, but she was annoyed with that. She said, quote,
Speaker 1: the only thing I thought twice about writing was making
Speaker 1: the team's rich, uncaring owner a woman. I worried about
Speaker 1: people saying I had made a sexist statement, but I've
Speaker 1: seen that woman's attitude so many times. Quote I never
Speaker 1: let my children see a hockey game unquote, So it
Speaker 1: seems I mean whatever she felt, she felt differently, And
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's like, I feel I respect what
Speaker 1: she's trying to do, and I also agree with what
Speaker 1: you're saying. Galen, is like it just depends on like
Speaker 1: how your movie is received and how like I think,
Speaker 1: if you're looking for nuance in this movie, you can
Speaker 1: find it, but because of the genre, you might not
Speaker 1: necessarily be looking for it.
Speaker 4: I don't know, you know, And I think too, like
Speaker 4: the you know, the fact that the owner is a woman.
Speaker 4: You know, As I was, you know, pitching this idea
Speaker 4: to to Jamie, it's like, I don't think this will pass.
Speaker 4: I think this is like the worst possible. But she's
Speaker 4: she's you know, us the description rich uncaring, it's also
Speaker 4: it's a she's a ruthless, bottom line business person, right,
Speaker 4: and like any guy would have done that, you know, Yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean it the same, you know, But so I
Speaker 4: don't I don't know that you saw a lot of
Speaker 4: that back then where the I don't know, is it
Speaker 4: called girl boss. I don't want to step in anything here.
Speaker 1: You know. Well, yeah, you've seen my you've seen my show.
Speaker 1: I mean I think it kind of I think that
Speaker 1: it does fall into that thing. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: think it's interesting that that was what was on her
Speaker 1: mind in seventy seven, because I that was one of
Speaker 1: the characters that I didn't think, really I didn't have
Speaker 1: an issue with. I had an issue with how Red
Speaker 1: treated her versus like how she was portrayed, because it
Speaker 1: was like at that point for me, I don't know
Speaker 1: how you felt at this point in the movie, Caitlin,
Speaker 1: but it was like you had seen different kinds of
Speaker 1: women throughout this movie that It's like I feel like
Speaker 1: sometimes if there's only one woman in the movie and
Speaker 1: she is like a ruthless, cruel person, then it's like, well,
Speaker 1: I have no idea how this writer feels about women.
Speaker 1: This seems like how they're presenting all women. But because
Speaker 1: it's like this one character who comes up late in
Speaker 1: the movie, I feel like she represents more of a
Speaker 1: class thing than any sort of commentary on gender. And
Speaker 1: I was fine with that, Like it's you know, she
Speaker 1: and Regen is seen both suck in very very different ways.
Speaker 1: And yeah, that worked for me. I thought it was
Speaker 1: interesting that that was the thing that stuck with her,
Speaker 1: because I think the thing that stuck with me really
Speaker 1: was I agree, like there's not any pushback on how
Speaker 1: men talk about women in this movie. I agree with
Speaker 1: you Dad that like they're they're there were some that
Speaker 1: you know, you would, but you would have to kind
Speaker 1: of be looking for it of like someone being like Hugh,
Speaker 1: because they do like the I think that the character
Speaker 1: that is most clearly written in a way that the
Speaker 1: movie is conscious of being sexist is I don't know,
Speaker 1: do you know what the name of that character is,
Speaker 1: Like the one that is who only says.
Speaker 4: Sexist Morris Morris.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, Morris's whole thing is that he views women
Speaker 1: as objects. And it's like that's the joke with the character.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, and to go back to go
Speaker 4: back to the point that it's a two hour movie.
Speaker 4: If you cut Mars out right, it becomes it could
Speaker 4: have been.
Speaker 2: An easier movie to digest for sure.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I mean it doesn't really add anything. I
Speaker 4: don't think, you know, it's just it's like it, you
Speaker 4: know again, the scene with the owner and Paul Newman.
Speaker 4: You know, as I think about it now, that's like
Speaker 4: Reg Dunlop, you know, the shoes on the other foot
Speaker 4: now because you know, not because she's a woman, but
Speaker 4: she's the owner and she's telling them like, yeah, I
Speaker 4: could help you and your and your your players, but
Speaker 4: you know, but there's nothing in it for me. There's
Speaker 4: no money in it for me. And when he says,
Speaker 4: you know, we're human beings, you know, that's maybe about
Speaker 4: as you know for all the other scenes where like
Speaker 4: he's sort of vulnerable and he wants you know, France
Speaker 4: scene back. You know, that was a it's a small scene,
Speaker 4: but that's probably you know, his most his most human
Speaker 4: vulnerable moment maybe, you know.
Speaker 2: And it could have been a much more effective just
Speaker 2: scene in general or commentary or whatever it's trying to
Speaker 2: do as far as like, yeah, rich people conduct and
Speaker 2: them not caring about human lives and only caring about
Speaker 2: the bottom line. But then the scene ends with him
Speaker 2: going on a homophobic tirade about her young son, and
Speaker 2: then it's just like, well, that undercuts everything that could
Speaker 2: have been interesting about that scene.
Speaker 4: Right, Caitlin, As you said earlier, the scene where you
Speaker 4: know he's with the opponent's wife, you know, I mean,
Speaker 4: you know, she explains a very you know, personal thing
Speaker 4: to him, and he seems to be listening and have
Speaker 4: some you know, respect and everything. But then you know,
Speaker 4: right two seconds later, and that sets his character. Everything
Speaker 4: he can use he will use against others.
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, well that's that's something that I maybe,
Speaker 1: I mean, if it works for every I mean that
Speaker 1: maybe has a good opportunity to slip over to just
Speaker 1: read as a character. I wonder I'm trying to think
Speaker 1: I couldn't think of like a modern day analog for
Speaker 1: this character, because I do think that there is value
Speaker 1: in presenting a character like this, who is you know,
Speaker 1: like I struggle, like a complicated guy, but someone who
Speaker 1: responds to insecurity by being hateful like that is I
Speaker 1: think something that exists in the world. It exists in
Speaker 1: a lot of men, but a lot of people, but
Speaker 1: mostly men. If we're being honest, But you know, in general,
Speaker 1: these are people who exist in the world. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's off the table to present that, but presenting
Speaker 1: it as your movie star hero is a very difficult
Speaker 1: self for me because then it's like, I think that
Speaker 1: the element like Paul Newman, I think gives a good
Speaker 1: performance in this movie, but he's Paul Newman. You know,
Speaker 1: he's like, you're gonna love him because he's Paul Newman,
Speaker 1: and he's charismatic, and he's handsome, and even when he's
Speaker 1: saying horrible things, especially in the late seventies where people
Speaker 1: said horrible things more openly than they currently do, Like,
Speaker 1: it's just it's even if there is something to be
Speaker 1: said about presenting a character like this, I feel like
Speaker 1: the combination of positioning it as your main character and
Speaker 1: your hero, and also like combining that with he doesn't
Speaker 1: really I mean, I guess like he doesn't get what
Speaker 1: he wants in the way that we see in some
Speaker 1: movies where like someone fucking sucks the whole movie and
Speaker 1: then for some reason they get exactly what they want
Speaker 1: at the end. It's a mixed bag for Rege at
Speaker 1: the end. But I wouldn't say he like he doesn't
Speaker 1: get his uh really like he gets to continue to
Speaker 1: work in hockey, Like he gets part of it. I
Speaker 1: think the main thing he loses is the relationship that
Speaker 1: he very obviously still wants, right and deservedly so and
Speaker 1: not I think is one of the better done parts
Speaker 1: of the movie for sure. But yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I struggled with how his character was framed.
Speaker 2: I don't know, especially because he learns nothing, he shows
Speaker 2: no growth, and even at the end when it seems like,
Speaker 2: you know what, I don't want to win this way
Speaker 2: by you know, pummeling the other team. I want to
Speaker 2: play hockey and win that way. And then as soon
Speaker 2: as he's like, oh, they're scouts here, and it's.
Speaker 1: Like never, never mind.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's like okay, so you have absolutely no
Speaker 2: code of ethics. That's interesting.
Speaker 4: And again, I mean, I don't know if we're supposed
Speaker 4: to be where we're supposed to be in the discussion.
Speaker 4: But you know, again, the more I thought about it,
Speaker 4: I remember reading a piece several years ago about the
Speaker 4: movie as you know, kind of a not a hockey
Speaker 4: movie or a good but like a sort of a
Speaker 4: snapshot of America kind of at the time, late seventies
Speaker 4: and I you know, I can't really remember what the
Speaker 4: economy was like, you know, but things, you know, longtime businesses,
Speaker 4: you know, long time industries were really taking you know,
Speaker 4: a hit back then, like the steel industry. And and
Speaker 4: one of the things that kind of struck me watching it,
Speaker 4: it's like with everybody depicted in there, even if they're
Speaker 4: not characters in the movie, but like you know, the fans, right,
Speaker 4: they're all looking at losing their jobs because they're you know,
Speaker 4: their jobs are going to disappear. And the player will
Speaker 4: they get signed, you know, will the team full? Will it?
Speaker 4: You know, if they were believing it would get sold.
Speaker 4: To me, there's like this low level desperation you know,
Speaker 4: to survive on the on the parts of everyone there,
Speaker 4: you know. And in the case of Paul Newman's you know,
Speaker 4: Paul Newman being the oldest one, being not really that successful,
Speaker 4: you know, I mean, whether this is you know him
Speaker 4: all the time or not, you know, he's he's kind
Speaker 4: of the worst one. He's like, I will I will
Speaker 4: do anything. I'll do whatever it takes, you know, to
Speaker 4: be able to continue my career someplace else or here.
Speaker 4: And if it has to do with you know, kind
Speaker 4: of manipulating my players or manipulating people who are involved
Speaker 4: my players, you know, means to an end pretty much
Speaker 4: all the way through.
Speaker 1: You know. I Yeah, I I the closest I can
Speaker 1: get to rationalizing Rag's carecharacter. I read an essay, an
Speaker 1: academic essay. I was on Google dot scholar dot com.
Speaker 1: Of course. Yes, this was published in athlon A E.
Speaker 1: T hl O N Eighth Lawn, The Journal of Sport Literature,
Speaker 1: volume thirty seven, issue one from twenty nineteen, written by
Speaker 1: John Source. To take everything he says with a grain AsSalt,
Speaker 1: but I did really appreciate his retrospective view on this movie,
Speaker 1: and I think it offered because he did a more
Speaker 1: class driven view of the men on his team, which
Speaker 1: I do think is a valuable way of looking at
Speaker 1: this movie. But he basically makes the argument that Reggie's
Speaker 1: character like doesn't shy away from the fact that reg
Speaker 1: is a despicable character, and I do. I guess it's
Speaker 1: like we don't have nineteen seventy seven goggles to put on,
Speaker 1: and I wonder how clearly that read at the time.
Speaker 1: But I think that the argument that he makes the
Speaker 1: I think is interesting and kind of speaks to like
Speaker 1: the parts of this movie that did work for me
Speaker 1: was that, you know, I think the setting is very
Speaker 1: relevant here where they're like encapsulated in this fictional steel
Speaker 1: town where jobs are falling left and right. There's this
Speaker 1: huge sense of insecurity about the future, and you see
Speaker 1: in these men on the team a level of like
Speaker 1: people acting desperately when their future is insecure. And I
Speaker 1: think reg is a really extreme, kind of like monstrous
Speaker 1: version of that, where he is so desperate to preserve
Speaker 1: what he wants for his version of the future that
Speaker 1: he will undercut almost anyone in his life, even if
Speaker 1: he likes and respects them. He is not above completely
Speaker 1: selling them out in order to preserve the future that
Speaker 1: he feels entitled to. And John Soares kind of makes
Speaker 1: the argument that this movie The Streets, well, I guess
Speaker 1: something that is historically true. I didn't know this, but
Speaker 1: I was delighted to learn it that in times of
Speaker 1: economic insecurity and in recessions and depressions, women are like
Speaker 1: statistically more likely to move with the time, and men
Speaker 1: are more likely to cling to how things were and
Speaker 1: be unwilling to change their situation. They're less likely to
Speaker 1: want to move, They're less likely to want to switch professions.
Speaker 1: They're less likely to want to change the way that
Speaker 1: their day to day life is versus women are far
Speaker 1: more likely to be I guess like just kind of
Speaker 1: more realistic about what's happening.
Speaker 2: More adaptable.
Speaker 4: You know, there's a line in the movie and in
Speaker 4: the scene where you know, redch and his opponent's wife
Speaker 4: are in bed, and it closes with I think he's
Speaker 4: telling her, you know, the team's going to fold, or
Speaker 4: the team they know, I don't know what I'm going
Speaker 4: to do, and she says to him, you know, just
Speaker 4: just use your imagination. That's what I've been doing. So
Speaker 4: it's you know, And I think he uses that line
Speaker 4: himself later on yea, on somebody else, but you know, but.
Speaker 1: He's still I mean, but I think that that's part
Speaker 1: of like what is frustrating about the men in this
Speaker 1: movie for me is like they even at the end,
Speaker 1: and I think the movie is conscious of this, Like
Speaker 1: reg has not really changed because his last line is
Speaker 1: him lying about whether his wife is leaving him or not,
Speaker 1: because you know, Lily is like, oh, is she coming
Speaker 1: and he's like yeah, and we know she's not. And
Speaker 1: it's like this it's kind of like a I think
Speaker 1: viewed a certain way, and this is not the way
Speaker 1: that this character is regarded in pop culture, but I
Speaker 1: liked looking at it that way of like, this guy
Speaker 1: is kind of tragic. He can't accept that things are
Speaker 1: changing and that his life is changing, and that is
Speaker 1: something that I think is like very relatable and everyone
Speaker 1: has experienced that to some degree. And also it's like
Speaker 1: if you whatever, because we as the audience know that
Speaker 1: he is just like really committed to having the upper
Speaker 1: hand in his life in a way that's impossible, and
Speaker 1: I just thought it was interesting. But yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that viewed from that sort of perspective, the men in
Speaker 1: this movie are not flexible. They are completely inflexible and
Speaker 1: they refuse to accept a future that is uncomfortable to them.
Speaker 1: And the women in this movie are not like that.
Speaker 1: They will. I mean, I think that the well, and
Speaker 1: we'll talk about really shortly because it's like her character
Speaker 1: is so frustrating because I feel like she was inconsistent
Speaker 1: with this. But with the characters of Suzanne, who is
Speaker 1: Suzanne Hanrahan I'm assuming, and Francine, they are both women
Speaker 1: who are like, look, I was either uncomfortable, unsafe, and
Speaker 1: so I got the fuck out and I moved on
Speaker 1: with my life. And that's like, that's what you have
Speaker 1: to do to survive. And I think it's a especially
Speaker 1: effective with Francine because she knows that she's right to
Speaker 1: leave him. I honestly was I thought that the movie
Speaker 1: would end with them getting back together, and I was
Speaker 1: so thrilled that it didn't.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, it feels like a good fake out. Yeah, she
Speaker 4: turns her car around and joins the parade. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 4: and that was you know again, that was a thing
Speaker 4: that sort of struck me about the movie. You know,
Speaker 4: in a lot of other movies, that's what would have happened.
Speaker 4: You know, they would have gotten together at the end.
Speaker 2: You know, she would have been like, Wow, you won
Speaker 2: the trophy at the championship game. Well here's me another
Speaker 2: trophy trophy.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, happy endings in movies, right, that's.
Speaker 2: The Hollywood does love a happy ending.
Speaker 1: But the last shot of this movie is her driving
Speaker 1: in the other direction, and I feel like that great.
Speaker 1: That was my favorite sort of thread in the movie.
Speaker 1: Is I felt like because of the time, and I mean,
Speaker 1: this still happens in movies that they would how I
Speaker 1: end up reconciling When she showed up at the game
Speaker 1: at the end, I'm like, well, that's curtain's on, Franccene.
Speaker 1: She's gonna be fucked over. But rewatching it again knowing
Speaker 1: that she leaves, it's even kind of like cooler. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she was my favorite character because she consistently like she
Speaker 1: has affection for her ex husband but also like doesn't
Speaker 1: want to get back together. And I think like in
Speaker 1: their interactions, it was really interesting because Paul Newman's character
Speaker 1: is constantly trying to like manufacture a need that she
Speaker 1: would have for him, where he's he's constantly like, well,
Speaker 1: if you need money, you can call me, and she's like,
Speaker 1: I don't bought, Like you know, she doesn't need him,
Speaker 1: and he can't like he knows that at his core
Speaker 1: because he says it behind her back. He never says
Speaker 1: it to her face, but he says behind her back like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: since my wife broke up with me, her life has
Speaker 1: been way better, Like he says that to Lily, So
Speaker 1: it's like he knows it, but he can't really admit it.
Speaker 1: And it's just it felt like an interesting, like complicated
Speaker 1: relationship dynamic that feels like something that happens in the
Speaker 1: real world. And I just like that specific subplot I
Speaker 1: think kind of worked for me, especially because Francine was like,
Speaker 1: you know, touched that he seemed to recognize that when
Speaker 1: she heard it from a third party. But he's right,
Speaker 1: and she wants to move on with her life and
Speaker 1: she does, and I thought that that was cool. Yes,
Speaker 1: But for some reason, that same nuance in generosity is
Speaker 1: not extended to Lily, which I found to be so weird.
Speaker 1: I'm like, was that a studio note, Like two women
Speaker 1: can't leave their husbands, it can just be the one
Speaker 1: like what happened there? Because Lily, I think again, is
Speaker 1: set up in an interesting way, but then it kind
Speaker 1: of goes away by the ant of the movie, right.
Speaker 2: It seems like she's being set up that her arc
Speaker 2: will be like she's mustering up the courage to actually
Speaker 2: leave her husband, which is so that she seems to
Speaker 2: want to do for a while. She's like very vocal
Speaker 2: about how miserable she is in this town. She seems
Speaker 2: very miserable in the relationship. She's watching her husband flirting
Speaker 2: with other women, and she eventually I don't know if
Speaker 2: there's some catalysts that gets her to finally leave him,
Speaker 2: or if it just kind of happens, but one day
Speaker 2: she shows up on Also the fact that she goes
Speaker 2: to Reggie. I guess he's the only person who has
Speaker 2: like extended any kind of olive Brancher or anything.
Speaker 1: I sort of found that to be an act of
Speaker 1: desperation because we've seen her fail to make friends and
Speaker 1: connections inside of this small world that she's been forced into.
Speaker 2: Kind of right, because we see her hang out with
Speaker 2: other hockey wives for lack of a better term.
Speaker 1: Who to be fair, and I think this is like
Speaker 1: a class thing where she and her husband ned because
Speaker 1: they're like from you know, well to do families, and
Speaker 1: they're both college educated. She is positioned as like smarter, hotter,
Speaker 1: better than the other hockey wives, which didn't feel fair.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, and she's not able to connect with them.
Speaker 2: So anyway, she leaves Bryden for a while and goes
Speaker 2: to Reggie and she's like, I'm moving in, I guess,
Speaker 2: and then he takes her. He introduces her to Franccene,
Speaker 2: and what I would have liked to have happened was
Speaker 2: they become friends. They have a lot of common ground.
Speaker 2: You know they're both.
Speaker 1: Which is like established, and the one scene they have together,
Speaker 1: it's like.
Speaker 2: Right, like there's a lot to learn for sure, like
Speaker 2: there are neither like current or former relationships with hockey
Speaker 2: players who don't know how to treat women well at all,
Speaker 2: and the women are sick of it. And I thought
Speaker 2: it was gonna be a situation where Franccene empowers Lily
Speaker 2: to like you know, write out on her own, because there's.
Speaker 1: Which it's like, I well, but that's what was so confusing,
Speaker 1: because it felt like, you know, you can I don't know,
Speaker 1: like the makeover thing didn't bother me at all really
Speaker 1: because it's also like we're seeing Susanne or no, sorry,
Speaker 1: we're seeing Francceine at her job. So okay. I think
Speaker 1: a lesser movie would have reg be like we gotta
Speaker 1: make this girl over and you know, but like Reg
Speaker 1: right there and Francine and like whatever, it's a dated
Speaker 1: way of doing it. But I was like, okay, but
Speaker 1: then when but then when they go to the hockey game,
Speaker 1: like what happened? Because I really liked that conversation where
Speaker 1: Lily is and again it's like in the context of
Speaker 1: like what I mean, we're well into second wave feminism
Speaker 1: by the late seventies, but leaving your husband in the
Speaker 1: late seventies is different than currently, right, and there are
Speaker 1: different dynamics to that, and so I understand why, like
Speaker 1: Lily is nervous about it. It's a nerve wracking experience
Speaker 1: to leave your spouse, no matter what is happening in
Speaker 1: But I liked how Francine like she said, it's lousy
Speaker 1: at first you think you're dying, but then it's fabulous.
Speaker 1: You become a new woman and you're like, this is
Speaker 1: such an interesting dynamic to set up, but then it
Speaker 1: just goes nowhere, it goes back nowhere.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and the interesting you know Caitlyn too, I mean,
Speaker 4: like and Jamie, that's your name, right, Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 4: Like Lily, you know, that whole character sort of confuses
Speaker 4: me because you know, she makes very clear she doesn't
Speaker 4: like that life. They could go back to, you know,
Speaker 4: something easier with money, and she leaves her husband but
Speaker 4: stays in the life. You know, she stays in the town.
Speaker 4: She goes to another hockey person, you know.
Speaker 1: So it's like, I do wonder, I mean, but I wondered,
Speaker 1: like if that was just like temporary and then she
Speaker 1: because it was like, I mean, I guess it took Franccene.
Speaker 1: We don't know how long she and reg have been separated,
Speaker 1: or how long Francine had to save or whatever it
Speaker 1: would take for her to start her restart her life
Speaker 1: somewhere else, But I don't know. It seemed like the
Speaker 1: movie was setting us up for like, oh, Franccene could
Speaker 1: inspire or give Lily the confidence to do something similar.
Speaker 4: Yes, coach, I agree, like I empower her coachure, so
Speaker 4: that that part was a little bit hard not to
Speaker 4: just of it. It was like, oh, I didn't think
Speaker 4: that was going to be the result of this, you know, right, because.
Speaker 1: Then it's like Ned, Ned does not change at all.
Speaker 1: I know that, like symbolically him doing the strip tease
Speaker 1: is supposed to mean something, but it just like that
Speaker 1: did nothing for me at all. I found his character
Speaker 1: frustrating throughout. I mean, as you know that, I just
Speaker 1: like did not take to that character at all. I
Speaker 1: didn't like him. I thought he was both snobby and
Speaker 1: exactly all of the things that he claimed that he
Speaker 1: was above. Like yeah, I just I just didn't I
Speaker 1: thought he's like such a snotty little asshole who is
Speaker 1: horrible to his wife. I didn't know how to communicate
Speaker 1: with her. Again, a legitimate relationship dynamic to explore, but
Speaker 1: like I felt like at the end, he's like, now
Speaker 1: I got my wife back and she's got this cool
Speaker 1: new makeover, and it's like, but you did nothing, You
Speaker 1: did nothing. And the last thing he did before he
Speaker 1: did his weird little routine that I didn't like, was like,
Speaker 1: talk shit about her on the radio. And I was like,
Speaker 1: is ay I gonna tell her about that? Say, we're
Speaker 1: gonna tell her that he called her a hot piece
Speaker 1: of ass who's an alcoholic that hates him on the radio,
Speaker 1: because I would not be thrilled to hear my spouse
Speaker 1: saying shit like that.
Speaker 2: True. But then I'd be like, but he's exactly right.
Speaker 2: I am a hot who hates.
Speaker 1: Him, and I'd stop drinking if I if I just
Speaker 1: left him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, when Francine and Lily show up
Speaker 2: to the game at the end, one of them says,
Speaker 2: what am I even doing here? And I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 2: your question, what are you even doing there?
Speaker 1: I wish that I knew the answer.
Speaker 4: Well, I think if if Lily wanted to go to
Speaker 4: that last game. She did not really have a lot
Speaker 4: of friends among the other wives. True, you know, so
Speaker 4: you know, like as an ally maybe And there is
Speaker 4: another scene and you know, you know, we've talked mainly
Speaker 4: about the same two three women, but there are some
Speaker 4: scenes with the other wise. Like there's a scene where
Speaker 4: the wives are all in their car waiting for their
Speaker 4: husbands to get home from a bus trip. And I
Speaker 4: thought it's a sort of a sad scene, but in
Speaker 4: the in the in the same way, they kind of
Speaker 4: like have to kind of you know, form their own
Speaker 4: little group and rally around each other and support each
Speaker 4: other because they clearly are not, you know, too psyched
Speaker 4: with with the life either. And there you know what
Speaker 4: their husbands are doing, and you know that they're gone
Speaker 4: and this and that.
Speaker 2: I wish since this is mostly an ensemble cast, you know,
Speaker 2: you've got Paul Newman is like the main character, but
Speaker 2: you've got a lot of little subplots with various other characters,
Speaker 2: that there was more focus on the wives of these
Speaker 2: hockey players, because to me, they're in more interesting situations
Speaker 2: than especially because so many of the men are characterized
Speaker 2: as either just being like hot headed or trying to
Speaker 2: prove something about their masculinity, or their sleezy creeps, or
Speaker 2: their wildly homophobic you know, all of this stuff that
Speaker 2: I don't want to see. And then the women are
Speaker 2: in this position of you know, it's a time where
Speaker 2: a lot of people in like hetero couples, the women
Speaker 2: were still relying on their husbands for sustainable like for
Speaker 2: his income, and women in the workplace were not as
Speaker 2: welcome as they are today. So it was hard to
Speaker 2: be a single one owner to be, you know, someone
Speaker 2: earning your own way as a woman at that time,
Speaker 2: and so they're relying on these men who are not
Speaker 2: treating them well at all. But it's also very like
Speaker 2: normalized culturally, but they still are like heavily drinking about it.
Speaker 2: There's a scene where.
Speaker 1: I will actually I liked the scene. I think you're
Speaker 1: gonna reference because I yeah, it's I'm trying to like
Speaker 1: put this through because it's like, it's not like there
Speaker 1: were not movies that had women protagonists in the seventies,
Speaker 1: but in sports movies, I know that that was I
Speaker 1: feel like, I don't know, I feel like I feel
Speaker 1: a little defensive of Nancy Dad because I will say,
Speaker 1: I do think that in this movie, the men, with
Speaker 1: the exception of Reg, who at least you see a
Speaker 1: few layers of even though I kind of dislike all
Speaker 1: of them, but you do see different lairs of this character,
Speaker 1: so there's like no and how he's written. But I
Speaker 1: think that the women that are presented far more broadly
Speaker 1: than the men are because most of the hockey team,
Speaker 1: except for like Ned and Reg, are like just like,
Speaker 1: here's this guy, and this is what he does and
Speaker 1: how he reacts. Like here's a sexist guy, here's a
Speaker 1: violent guy, here's a homophobic guy. And you're like, there's
Speaker 1: all these guys, and they're written in the very, very
Speaker 1: broad way that men in raunchy comedies are, which is
Speaker 1: kind of why I don't like the genre. But I
Speaker 1: will say that, like, I mean, I even think back
Speaker 1: to like raunchy comedies that came out when we were
Speaker 1: the target audience, and I'm thinking like early hangover movies
Speaker 1: and like John Appatow movies and shit like that, and
Speaker 1: I feel like in this movie you get women, like
Speaker 1: more different kinds of women than you did like thirty
Speaker 1: years later in some cases. But true, I think the
Speaker 1: hockey wives are the most broadly written women that appear
Speaker 1: in the movie. And I didn't love that because I
Speaker 1: feel like it in the same way that I didn't
Speaker 1: like when Ned was like a snotty like I went
Speaker 1: to whatever fucking school he went to, and so I'm
Speaker 1: better than most of the guys on this team, like
Speaker 1: it's just like a moral superiority. And Lily kind of
Speaker 1: takes that into how she treats the hockey wives, where
Speaker 1: I think she treats them kind of as like bimbos
Speaker 1: who aren't as smart as her, and it seems like
Speaker 1: that is a part of the reason that she doesn't
Speaker 1: hang out with them, because it seems like the other
Speaker 1: hockey wives, who I don't know if we get names
Speaker 1: for them, they seem like they I mean, they have
Speaker 1: a lot in common. A lot of what they have
Speaker 1: in common sucks. Is like they are sort of along
Speaker 1: for the ride of their husband's career and it seems
Speaker 1: isolating and depressing and frustrating. And I thought it was
Speaker 1: she's made a joke of. But we see the same
Speaker 1: hockey wife a few different times who's constantly like kind
Speaker 1: of referencing like Johnny either like Johnny, Yes, Johnny's who's Johnny.
Speaker 2: I have no idea which Johnny is, but he's one
Speaker 2: of them.
Speaker 1: One of those. But I thought Johnny's wife like she's
Speaker 1: played for laughs mostly, But I thought it was like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I didn't. I liked her like she
Speaker 1: was she was like trying to make the best of
Speaker 1: what she seemed to know was a bad situation. But
Speaker 1: she's like I'm trying to get my husband to read
Speaker 1: a book, or like I'm trying to get my husband
Speaker 1: to do anything except be a fucking goon, which is
Speaker 1: like whatever, what like all the guys in the team are,
Speaker 1: and it's you know, it's not. Is it the most
Speaker 1: progressive thing ever? No, But I didn't feel like there is.
Speaker 1: Like she was like an interesting character that I wish
Speaker 1: it had been played for more than last because when
Speaker 1: one of the fights that Lily and Ned have in public,
Speaker 1: you know, Lily basically ends by being like me and
Speaker 1: Ned are better than everyone here, bye, and like leaves right.
Speaker 1: And Johnny's wife, who God, I wish she had a
Speaker 1: name respond to that by being like, oh, I really
Speaker 1: feel for her, and you're like, that's I don't know,
Speaker 1: I whatever, Like I guess I understood like those. It
Speaker 1: seems like it's implied in the movie that those women
Speaker 1: don't connect with each other because of class differences. But
Speaker 1: I felt like the hockey wives I thought were played
Speaker 1: broadly in a way that it would have been because
Speaker 1: I appreciated that the movie made time for women at all,
Speaker 1: which again it's like, I like, sports movies almost never do,
Speaker 1: and if you, if you do, it's like the supportive
Speaker 1: wife like grabbing their husband's hand being like go.
Speaker 7: Go coach a baby or whatever the fuck, which is
Speaker 7: like so fucking boring. But it's like how a lot
Speaker 7: of women appear in sports movies at all. But there
Speaker 7: was especially because it's like Nancy Dad seemed to want
Speaker 7: to include women.
Speaker 1: But it felt like well to an extent, like I'm
Speaker 1: happy to include educated women, but like it seemed like
Speaker 1: the hockey wives were. I just feel like there was
Speaker 1: room for them to be played off as more of
Speaker 1: kind of one liners. But I liked that scene in
Speaker 1: the car where it was like, even though these women
Speaker 1: don't get along, they do have a common struggle and
Speaker 1: they are pushed aside and expected to put up with
Speaker 1: all of this shit, and it's like leading to addiction
Speaker 1: issues for them, and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they all seem to be self medicating to fight
Speaker 2: the just either loneliness or abuse that they're putting up with. Right,
Speaker 2: can we talk about Suzanne, because.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Suzanne.
Speaker 2: So Suzanne is the character. I think she's only in
Speaker 2: one scene, yeah, which.
Speaker 1: Is wild because the actor who plays her is like
Speaker 1: so successful and won an Oscar like this same year.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, what's her name? I didn't even look it up.
Speaker 1: Well, Linda Dylan. You probably my dad picked up on this.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, she is she? I think most
Speaker 1: iconically plays the mom in a Christmas Story. But she
Speaker 1: or no, sorry, she was nominated this same year for
Speaker 1: playing I think the mom character in Close Encounters. Okay,
Speaker 1: but whatever. She's like a very very successful actor. But
Speaker 1: she's only in this movie for one minute, for.
Speaker 2: One scene, and it's the scene where she's in bed
Speaker 2: with Reggie, and she's talking about how her husband Hanrahan,
Speaker 2: when he was like out on the road for a game,
Speaker 2: how she and another hockey wife they would get together
Speaker 2: and talk about how depressed and lonely they were without
Speaker 2: the men, and then also how they lamented that they
Speaker 2: never did much of anything themselves, which I feel like
Speaker 2: is also maybe what Lily struggles with to some degree,
Speaker 2: where she's like, I'm not doing anything but like supporting
Speaker 2: my husband in his career, but like what about or
Speaker 2: maybe this is just like headcanon that I'm assigning to Lily.
Speaker 2: But anyway, Suzanne's talking about how like, oh, I never
Speaker 2: did anything for myself, and then she goes on to
Speaker 2: describe how one night when she and this other hockey
Speaker 2: wife were hanging out, they were drinking and they started
Speaker 2: fooling around, but then they kept getting together and having
Speaker 2: sex sober, and that they were like engaging in this
Speaker 2: like sexual relationship that they were both into. And she's like, hey, Reg,
Speaker 2: have you ever considered sleeping with men? And at first
Speaker 2: he says no, but then he's like, who knows, maybe
Speaker 2: I'll start sleeping with old goalies. And then I'm like, okay,
Speaker 2: he's I don't know.
Speaker 1: That scene is like almost and then it's so frustrating.
Speaker 8: But it's also like I feel like that's like Reg sucks,
Speaker 8: and it's like it's so frustrating to see a character
Speaker 8: that in their more private moments seems to be a
Speaker 8: better person than they are in their public.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, Because again the whole reason this scene even
Speaker 2: happens narratively in the movie is that so he now
Speaker 2: has information that he uses against his opponent in a
Speaker 2: way that like outs this guy's wife, like disparages her
Speaker 2: for her queerness, and he's like using that as ammunition
Speaker 2: to try to win the game and like for his
Speaker 2: own personal benefit. He does something similar with the general manager,
Speaker 2: that guy Joe, where he's like, Hey, remember that night
Speaker 2: that you I walked in on you and you were
Speaker 2: wearing like women's lingerie and then you came on to me. Well,
Speaker 2: I don't have to tell anyone about that as long
Speaker 2: as you give me. So he basically like blackmails him
Speaker 2: to learn the owner who the owner of the team is.
Speaker 1: That's something that yeah, And then that's like I do
Speaker 1: think the Reges is a super villain because I do
Speaker 1: almost believe him when he says that he like he
Speaker 1: he's like, I get it. It's the seventies, queer people exist, Like,
Speaker 1: I do believe that he understands that. But the fact
Speaker 1: that he understands that and is not above exploiting societal
Speaker 1: homophobia against people that he knows and says he likes,
Speaker 1: it's like, that's that's extra Evil's that's extra evil.
Speaker 4: And in that scene, you know, like first of all,
Speaker 4: the scene where he you know, kind of bates the opponent,
Speaker 4: the goalie, right, you know, with this information that he
Speaker 4: has about his wife, you know, from a hockey perspective,
Speaker 4: you know, nobody, nobody stands on the ice and shouts
Speaker 4: at someone and then moves over.
Speaker 1: You know, Oh, they're not shouting plot points at each.
Speaker 4: Other on the Oh no no. So that that was
Speaker 4: like annoying because some of the you know, some of
Speaker 4: the stuff with the Hanson brothers, the hockey, the skating,
Speaker 4: the this that the hitting you know is legit. Those
Speaker 4: guys were really hockey players. But so Reg dunlop and
Speaker 4: rages the goalie who attacks him finally after a goal
Speaker 4: and it's a big fight. Now does anybody know at first,
Speaker 4: like what caused this big fight? Did anybody hear what
Speaker 4: Reggie was saying? I don't think so? Just the goalie? Yeah,
Speaker 4: so he he could have left it there on the ice, right,
Speaker 4: But then he comes in and tells his whole team
Speaker 4: like when they asked him, would you say, you know,
Speaker 4: and he you know someone else that he was you know,
Speaker 4: I don't know that that is diabolical.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's evil, Like it's evil, and it's first because
Speaker 1: I didn't hate their scene together before I saw the
Speaker 1: scene after, because it felt like these are themes and
Speaker 1: just like queer people like just appearing in movies at
Speaker 1: all in a way that was like it seemed like
Speaker 1: they both accepted each other in that scene, and like
Speaker 1: the language is not great, but it's like for the time,
Speaker 1: it was like, wow, this it seems very unlikely that
Speaker 1: this was appearing in like popular summer comedies at the time,
Speaker 1: So okay, like you know, I can navigate around the
Speaker 1: dated elements of it, but yeah, it's yeah, he was
Speaker 1: so evil about that. And I feel like she because
Speaker 1: that character never comes back. It doesn't come back around
Speaker 1: in a satisfying way, but in the same way. I mean,
Speaker 1: I love her. I like that scene. I think the
Speaker 1: last thing that we were talking about, dad, that I
Speaker 1: think is extra evil about Reg in that situation is
Speaker 1: that she mentions in that scene that when her husband
Speaker 1: found out that she had had sex with women, he
Speaker 1: was so abusive to her that she was in the hospital.
Speaker 1: And it's like, well, Reg clearly doesn't care about that, yeah,
Speaker 1: because he then taunts her husband that he knows to
Speaker 1: be abusive, and she says that like she's hiding out
Speaker 1: from him, Like it's just sounds like she was in
Speaker 1: this tremendously abusive relationship, which again I believe it like seems,
Speaker 1: you know whatever, that that still happens. But the fact
Speaker 1: that like our movie starting Hero then does that, I
Speaker 1: feel like it did undercut the fact that the movie
Speaker 1: went out of its way to say like that her
Speaker 1: having a queer relationship. Not only was he up said
Speaker 1: about being cheated on, but also this thing that felt
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean that I guess you can
Speaker 1: tell us for the time, like there seemed like there
Speaker 1: was talk among the men of just confusion and like
Speaker 1: hateful confusion in handra hand and the whole team's case,
Speaker 1: They're like, well, if my wife has a relationship with
Speaker 1: a woman, then am I gay and I can't be gay?
Speaker 1: And like just like stuff that makes no sense.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was a stretch. I think I don't know.
Speaker 1: That that, you know, I was like people people believe that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not sure that you know, but when I
Speaker 4: was a kid, I don't really think that that is
Speaker 4: what somebody thought.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was like it doesn't make any sense, but
Speaker 1: it Yeah, okay, I was, I was curious about that,
Speaker 1: but it Yeah, I mean just again, reg Reg sucks.
Speaker 1: I love Paul Newman and I love Salad, but I
Speaker 1: hate Reg And it is what it is. But I
Speaker 1: did think that it was again, it's like this, this
Speaker 1: movie feels like it's doing incremental stuff in this genre
Speaker 1: that you don't see decades later. So I do appreciate that.
Speaker 1: It's like there is a queer character who is like
Speaker 1: open about it is cool, is performed in a way
Speaker 1: that felt authentic and cool. But also the seventies element
Speaker 1: of it is that they're immediately put in danger and
Speaker 1: then never appear in the movie again.
Speaker 2: So and you know, she's she's talking about her sexual
Speaker 2: relationship with a woman, but the scene we're seeing on
Speaker 2: screen is her in a sexual situation with a man,
Speaker 2: because heaven forbid we see like queer romance or sexuality
Speaker 2: actually on screen at that time.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure, or And it's like I sort of chalked
Speaker 1: that up more to like, well, how did people talk
Speaker 1: about bisexuality in the seventies, did they know? How did
Speaker 1: they have the tools? I just sort of assudent they did.
Speaker 2: But also like the way that raunchy comedies of like
Speaker 2: the nineties and two thousands would have, which.
Speaker 1: I think are worse than this movie. Honest, they are.
Speaker 2: They Yeah, and we've talked about I think I've like
Speaker 2: speculated as to why, but the way that those movies
Speaker 2: will have visibility of queer characters or of people of color,
Speaker 2: but they're only there to then be like punching bags
Speaker 2: to the main characters who are just saying horrible things
Speaker 2: and like making jokes at their expense of like what
Speaker 2: in whatever way they are marginalized, That's that's why they're there,
Speaker 2: and it's so jokes can be made at their expense.
Speaker 2: So and I felt the same way for Suzanne, like, yes,
Speaker 2: she's a queer character who's talking openly about her queerness
Speaker 2: to someone who seems receptive to it. But we learned
Speaker 2: that that scene is only in the movie so that
Speaker 2: this guy can use that as ammunition to win a
Speaker 2: hockey game and then boast about it. He's like, yeah, team,
Speaker 2: the reason we won is because I outed this woman
Speaker 2: who has an abusive husband, and.
Speaker 9: Anyone who had listened, yeah, that's I think that's like
Speaker 9: that's a not that it justifies any kind of behavior,
Speaker 9: but the fact that he does it a second time,
Speaker 9: like he shouts it at her husband, which is putting
Speaker 9: her in danger in one way, but then he does
Speaker 9: it a second time.
Speaker 1: Right after, and it's.
Speaker 2: Like he's the worst.
Speaker 1: Just so you doing.
Speaker 2: I don't have much else to say except that their
Speaker 2: their bus driver is wearing a helmet with a swastika
Speaker 2: on it.
Speaker 1: I noticed that as well.
Speaker 4: I never never caught that the first several times I
Speaker 4: watched the movie. You know, Walt Walt, who just goes
Speaker 4: from Walt the bus driver and you know, he's another one.
Speaker 4: He gets all swept and swept up in the you know,
Speaker 4: chiefs mania and starts you know, hammer and the bus,
Speaker 4: you know, to make it look meaner, and then the swastika,
Speaker 4: you know, but that you're.
Speaker 1: Just like, is that? Yeah? That that was a kind
Speaker 1: of jump scare in the movie, and it's like if
Speaker 1: it was. I think maybe the most generous reading of
Speaker 1: that was like, oh, this team is getting more and
Speaker 1: more evil, but we were like, there's so many there's
Speaker 1: no world where that was necessary. No.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's also an indigenous player during the final game.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about that. Yes, I mean I
Speaker 1: know obviously you did get spread it up. Yes, which
Speaker 1: in general, because the team in this movie are called
Speaker 1: the Chiefs and there's a lot of and I think
Speaker 1: that that's an ongoing conversation in sports, is it is
Speaker 1: teams that are named and characterize Indigenous people as mascots,
Speaker 1: and that's an ongoing conversation also in hockey specifically because
Speaker 1: the Chicago Blackhawks. I mean that I know you know this,
Speaker 1: you know this whole conversation of representing Indigenous people as
Speaker 1: mascots and the issues and conversations that have taken place.
Speaker 1: And also that team is still called the Chicago Blackhawks.
Speaker 1: They did not make any changes after that conversation was had.
Speaker 1: I was trying to happen in the mid twenty tens.
Speaker 1: But so this team is named the Chiefs, and there
Speaker 1: is a character in the.
Speaker 2: On the Syracuse team, Yes, what is his Clarence swamp
Speaker 2: Town aka Screaming Buffalo, who is played by a real
Speaker 2: hockey player named Joe Nolan, who is First Nations.
Speaker 1: I was worried that I was really worried that it
Speaker 1: was a guy in brown.
Speaker 2: A white guy. Yeah, but this is a real Indigenous person,
Speaker 2: a real hockey player However, the way that the costuming
Speaker 2: and the just characterization of that character is still relying
Speaker 2: heavily on stereotypes of Indigenous and First Nations people. So whoops.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a tough one, you know, I mean all
Speaker 4: the way down to like I said earlier, there was
Speaker 4: so much of the hockey parts of it are like,
Speaker 4: you know, an exaggeration, you know, like almost like a caricature,
Speaker 4: you know, of that scene. That's one of the things
Speaker 4: in the in the mood, it's like that never would
Speaker 4: be allowed, you know, he just he that's that's a
Speaker 4: you know. And again it's you know, we've talked to
Speaker 4: you know, if you could snip this guy out and
Speaker 4: this guy out, it really changes thing. That was like,
Speaker 4: all right, you've you've made your point. You know that
Speaker 4: the Syracuse team is loaded up on rugged guys, right,
Speaker 4: you know, to pay you back? You know, like how
Speaker 4: many did you have to have?
Speaker 1: Right? Well? And it's also like I don't think that
Speaker 1: the solution to that is cutting out that character. It's
Speaker 1: just presenting this real life First Nations hockey player in
Speaker 1: a way that wasn't you know, inherently connected to the
Speaker 1: fact that he was a First Nations player, Like I
Speaker 1: don't know, I have no objection to like having a
Speaker 1: cause because, like you've mentioned that, there's so many real
Speaker 1: life hockey players that appear in this movie, and Joe
Speaker 1: Nolan like played on a number of teams, including the
Speaker 1: Johnstown Jets. He's from a hockey family. He is h
Speaker 1: This is according to Hockey Legends dot com scholarly journal.
Speaker 1: Yes exactly. He is Ojibwa. He is the uncle of
Speaker 1: Buffalo Sabers coach Ted Nolan and great uncle of Jordan
Speaker 1: Nolan of the La Kings. So he's like from a
Speaker 1: like legacy hockey family. There's no issue with him being
Speaker 1: in this movie. It's just like presenting him as not
Speaker 1: inherently connected to his Like it's just like it's obviously
Speaker 1: written by a white writer of the time, disrespectful and
Speaker 1: just being like, well, this is his heritage, so this
Speaker 1: is going to be the whole character, and we're going
Speaker 1: to write it in the way like we're going to
Speaker 1: write him for a white audience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the most trophy way possible.
Speaker 1: And it would have been cool, Like it would been
Speaker 1: cool if Joe Nolan was cast in a role that
Speaker 1: was not that like was just like he could have
Speaker 1: played a he could be a guy on that team,
Speaker 1: but just it's obviously racist the way.
Speaker 2: Right with more than fifteen seconds of screen time, you know.
Speaker 1: I also this is like separate, but I learned about
Speaker 1: it on my trip at the Hockey Hall of Fame,
Speaker 1: so I wanted to mention it and we can link
Speaker 1: it in the description of this episode. But just the
Speaker 1: history of Native American and First Nations players within hockey,
Speaker 1: there's a lot to be discussed and learned about where
Speaker 1: there are still a number of I mean like, there
Speaker 1: are a number of Native players in professional hockey today,
Speaker 1: but there's also a history of hockey in reservation schools,
Speaker 1: and hockey has a role in Canadian reservation schools. There's
Speaker 1: been a lot written about it in the last couple
Speaker 1: of years that I think is very relevant to what
Speaker 1: we're talking about, very interesting, and especially when this Jo
Speaker 1: Nolan character came up, it was like, oh, there's actually
Speaker 1: a lot of troubling and like relevant Indigenous history within
Speaker 1: hockey that if you're interested, we can link a piece
Speaker 1: that I read below and I learned about it. I
Speaker 1: don't know why I keep plugging the Hontey muse. I
Speaker 1: thought it was really interesting and we'll link it.
Speaker 6: Yes.
Speaker 4: Indeed, ironically, I have never been to the Hockey Hall
Speaker 4: of Fame.
Speaker 1: I know, it's just like texting you pictures the whole time.
Speaker 2: Where is it Toronto?
Speaker 1: Yes, in Toronto, the Hockey Hall of Fame. I saw
Speaker 1: the Stanley Cup from a healthy distance, and then I
Speaker 1: did not pay ten dollars to have a picture taken
Speaker 1: next to it.
Speaker 2: Nice.
Speaker 1: Nice, I took a picture of it from far away.
Speaker 2: Does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss?
Speaker 4: Well, just because I did all the research on the
Speaker 4: one of the interesting things, I mean, the people who
Speaker 4: know this movie would be very frustrated. It was like,
Speaker 4: how could you not talk about? You know? The interesting
Speaker 4: things to me are that there really were Like so
Speaker 4: the three Hansome brothers. There really were three brothers on
Speaker 4: that Johnstown team. Their last name was Carlson. They were
Speaker 4: all supposed to be in the movie. One of them
Speaker 4: got called up to a better team, so they had
Speaker 4: to replace him with somebody who looked similar. His last
Speaker 4: name was Hanson, and that's that's how they named the
Speaker 4: three the Hansons. But god, it just there's a there's
Speaker 4: a lot of little interesting things there the one character
Speaker 4: that he's like, I want to collect that bounty. Who
Speaker 4: is another person that Regg Dunlop you know, manipulates because
Speaker 4: he's you know, kind of like a peacenik and a
Speaker 4: meditator and everything like that, And all of a sudden
Speaker 4: he becomes Dave Killer Carlson. Well, Dave Killer Carlson was
Speaker 4: a real player, and he replaced the Hanson that had
Speaker 4: to leave. It's just there's a lot of funny things
Speaker 4: in there. So he thought he was going to get
Speaker 4: to play himself, but instead he had to be a
Speaker 4: you know, become like a surrogate brother and be in
Speaker 4: a movie where someone played him. My last favorite thing is,
Speaker 4: you know, I'm no actor, but throughout the movie there
Speaker 4: are references made to this player that everybody's fearful of,
Speaker 4: you know, Ogie Oglethorpe. Right, Yes, Ogie finally shows up
Speaker 4: in that last game, never says a word, scowling at
Speaker 4: everybody in that scene, scowling and then fighting. That is
Speaker 4: Ned Dowd, whose sister wrote the movie.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, Nancy Dowd's brother.
Speaker 4: Yes, so Ogie is you know, but I mean, I
Speaker 4: just that scene just cracks me up. Just the skating
Speaker 4: out with the you know, chewing the gum and looking
Speaker 4: either ways. You know, but for for that on a
Speaker 4: screen time, just you you know, to sell it, I'm like,
Speaker 4: all right, nice job guy, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I like I think that that's like
Speaker 1: just the I don't know element of just like how
Speaker 1: she did this sort of immersive approach to research and
Speaker 1: then seemed to include a lot of people that she'd
Speaker 1: come across or learned about in that research in the movie.
Speaker 1: Like that's I just I don't know, I think that's cool.
Speaker 4: You know, and you know, there are there are elements
Speaker 4: of truth in the two and then I'll stop talking about.
Speaker 4: You know, the Charlestown Chiefs slash Johnstown Jets that nineteen
Speaker 4: seventy seven season that concluded so they could make the movie.
Speaker 4: The Jets didn't go out of business, but their league folded.
Speaker 1: Oh oh okay, you.
Speaker 4: Know, so this this was a thing that was happening,
Speaker 4: and that league had only been around for four years.
Speaker 4: The other thing that's interesting is like, you know how
Speaker 4: outrageous it was that, like, why would anybody a hockey
Speaker 4: team in Florida? Well, you know, there are professional hockey
Speaker 4: teams in Florida now and it's you know, it's gone
Speaker 4: pretty well in a couple of the places.
Speaker 1: So yeah, well, I guess that's the last thing I
Speaker 1: wanted to say was that I appreciated that the movie
Speaker 1: went out of its way to connect the struggle of
Speaker 1: this hockey team to what was going on in their community,
Speaker 1: and how like it was just like acknowledging I don't know,
Speaker 1: I felt like because it was done off of this
Speaker 1: very specific reporting in this region or this research I
Speaker 1: guess in this region, it like does reflect the socioeconomic
Speaker 1: problems in the Pittsburgh area in the late seventies and
Speaker 1: connects it to this hockey team in a way that feels,
Speaker 1: I don't know, like class conscious, in a way that
Speaker 1: a lot of sports MOVI fees either aren't or feel
Speaker 1: like overly sort of melodramatic about. It. Just felt like
Speaker 1: it fit very cleanly into this world, and like not
Speaker 1: only like it wasn't like the town and the team
Speaker 1: because it was a minor league team. The team is
Speaker 1: a part of the town and so they're all sort
Speaker 1: of sharing the same kind of issues, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that and we you know, we're talking about this earlier.
Speaker 2: But how Reggie like does a bunch of you know,
Speaker 2: it's like desperate times call for desperate measures, and under capitalism,
Speaker 2: when you know your livelihood is being threatened, a lot
Speaker 2: of people do have to act out of desperation and
Speaker 2: do things that they would maybe not otherwise do to survive.
Speaker 2: But and so and that manifests in Reggie as like
Speaker 2: manipulating people in a way that's like extremely harmful. So
Speaker 2: I guess my point is, like you can do things
Speaker 2: out of desperation because capitalism is killing us all without
Speaker 2: also being extremely homophobic and you know all the other
Speaker 2: things that he does, Like it would be one thing
Speaker 2: if all he did was just like lie to his
Speaker 2: team and like plant that story in the sports writer
Speaker 2: to be like I heard we were getting bought by Florida.
Speaker 2: And if he tells his team this and his objective
Speaker 2: is just to get morale up so that they can
Speaker 2: win and like actually maybe have a shot, Like I
Speaker 2: wouldn't have any problem with that really because it's like
Speaker 2: a not a not a diabolical.
Speaker 1: Lie, it's a victimless crime.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But the fact that he's doing that, plus all
Speaker 2: manner of like blackmailing, homophobia, outing people, all this stuff
Speaker 2: like that's where I can't.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you're not just gonna call him over that
Speaker 4: old rascal red chunk today.
Speaker 1: So okay, let's get through it. I this movie does
Speaker 1: it does well.
Speaker 4: I was so surprised to hear yeah.
Speaker 1: He kept checking with me to make sure that, and
Speaker 1: he was like, wait, what so it doesn't Well, it's
Speaker 1: a flawed metric. It doesn't. Just because it passes doesn't
Speaker 1: mean it's a feminist movie.
Speaker 2: Because Lily and Francine talk about Lily's hair and cheekbones.
Speaker 3: And share and they mentioned share, and then there's the
Speaker 3: other scene where it's Lily and then the two other
Speaker 3: women who I don't think have names, So by that
Speaker 3: caveat it would not pass.
Speaker 2: But they are talking about drinking alcohol and.
Speaker 1: They're talking about addiction problem. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Like yeah, so so it's by the scants teeth.
Speaker 1: But it does technically pass. And I feel like I
Speaker 1: want to I want to hand it to this movie
Speaker 1: as passing because of it feels like in many ways
Speaker 1: the odds are stacked against any sports movie about a
Speaker 1: men's demon passing. I was really surprised that it technically passes.
Speaker 4: I mean, if I can. I mean, when I thought
Speaker 4: about it in the you know, you know the theme
Speaker 4: of your cast. I really just thought that this was
Speaker 4: a movie that you know, crass and guys and thee
Speaker 4: but that the women kind of like stuck up for
Speaker 4: each other helped each other, didn't always. I mean, France
Speaker 4: scene's great. I mean she tells them like right off
Speaker 4: the bad one of their first scenes, like you know,
Speaker 4: you're terrible coaches teams state you know. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 4: she does it right, you know, so and and you know,
Speaker 4: and I love, like I said, I love most of
Speaker 4: the last scene. I still can't figure out, you know,
Speaker 4: how Lily and Ned end up together. And I agree
Speaker 4: with you caitle. And I thought that that the scene
Speaker 4: with Franccene was going to empower her to really go
Speaker 4: but you know, the fran scene, you know, goes her
Speaker 4: own way. I mean it's just, you know, it's sort
Speaker 4: of her own path because she you know, cuts through,
Speaker 4: cuts through the parade and goes down the you know,
Speaker 4: down the road by herself. I just thought it was,
Speaker 4: you know, that that was an element to the movie
Speaker 4: that shouldn't really you know, be overlooked for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean yeah, and I do think for especially
Speaker 1: for its time and also for this genre even now
Speaker 1: it is like unusual for women to be included. Also,
Speaker 1: as much as I hate ned, he was in Twin Peaks,
Speaker 1: so that's kind of fun.
Speaker 4: He played hockey at the University of New Hampshire as.
Speaker 1: Well, and we can't take that from them either, of course.
Speaker 4: And it's big time hockey, oh is it?
Speaker 1: Yes? See? Okay, now I'm nice. Sound like an asshole.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. This movie surprised me in ways
Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting it to.
Speaker 4: But but we should.
Speaker 1: We should talk about the most important metric on the
Speaker 1: face of the planet, which is our nipple scale.
Speaker 2: Yes, a scale of zero to five nipples in which
Speaker 2: we rate the movie. That's true, you heard.
Speaker 1: Yes, we need to break it down zero to.
Speaker 2: Five nipples, rating the movie based on examining it through
Speaker 2: an intersectional feminist lens. Yeah, I'll give this movie one
Speaker 2: nipple for it's a handful of female characters who, obviously
Speaker 2: I wish the movie had done a lot more with
Speaker 2: given more just real estate and the story to Susanne
Speaker 2: only being there so that her situation could be used
Speaker 2: as ammunition against her husband is obviously gross. But if
Speaker 2: she had been a more meaningful character. So I guess
Speaker 2: I'm giving it one nipple for the potential that the
Speaker 2: movie mostly squandered. I do appreciate that Francine stands her
Speaker 2: ground in not being willing to get back together with
Speaker 2: her shitty husband. I agree that like most movies would
Speaker 2: have like framed her as like the he's trying, he's trying,
Speaker 2: and at the end he finally gets her back and
Speaker 2: she's the other trophy he wins. But this movie doesn't
Speaker 2: do that, and that does count for something. Wow, the
Speaker 2: bar is so low, but everything else the movie does
Speaker 2: as far as it's just like rampant homophobia, ablest slurs
Speaker 2: are getting around casually, the treatment of the one indigenous
Speaker 2: character that we see on screen, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: If anyone is looking for a movie that features mostly
Speaker 2: men that is about men who are affected by a
Speaker 2: steel mill closing, might I recommend The Full Monty because
Speaker 2: it handles themes of toxic masculinity and things like that
Speaker 2: in a much more thoughtful way. I would say, not
Speaker 2: about hockey, though it is about men stripping, although wow,
Speaker 2: similar ending because we go slapshot does end in a
Speaker 2: strip tease. So anyway, I I'm glad. I guess that
Speaker 2: this movie, at least for like Jamie yours and my
Speaker 2: generation and younger generations, it is not something that most
Speaker 2: people are super aware of. It has not like it
Speaker 2: hasn't ended up. Is like this like piece of classic
Speaker 2: Hollywood cinema that you must revisit. It's it doesn't have
Speaker 2: much of a lasting legacy in that way.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean except for hockey fans, where it's not
Speaker 1: a massive leg like in a niche way. It has
Speaker 1: a huge legacy in the general way, not as.
Speaker 2: Much true true. Yeah, So one nipple and I will
Speaker 2: give it to my favorite character, fran Scene.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give this movie to Nipples because it's my
Speaker 1: birthday and I know, but I do think that like
Speaker 1: I agree with I mean, we've talked about it at
Speaker 1: length now where this movie is not generous in so
Speaker 1: many ways. It is wildly homophobic the one native character
Speaker 1: it represents, which is also I think that Joe Nolan
Speaker 1: is the only non white character who really appears in
Speaker 1: this movie meaningfully in any way. Yeah, which again is
Speaker 1: not necessary, especially because of the region you're in. It, Like,
Speaker 1: there's plenty of diversity to be found in this region.
Speaker 1: I know that hockey is predominantly a white sport, but
Speaker 1: it's a movie. You can do whatever the fuck you want.
Speaker 1: But I do think that this movie is I don't know,
Speaker 1: I mean a sports comedy in the seventies. Having women
Speaker 1: included it at all feels kind of like a miracle
Speaker 1: to me. And having a successful sports movie written by
Speaker 1: a woman feels kind of like a miracle to me
Speaker 1: for this era. And so I want.
Speaker 2: To miracle another hockey movie.
Speaker 1: Hate it, but that's like the exact kind of corny
Speaker 1: ass movie I'm talking about where all the girls are
Speaker 1: like you've got this baby, and you're like, oh my god. Like,
Speaker 1: I do think that this movie has incredible fault. It's
Speaker 1: like at the end because because we've talked about so
Speaker 1: many broad comedies on this show, and all of the
Speaker 1: swings are huge, and when they hit, they hit, and
Speaker 1: when they're bad, they're awful. They're almost worse than you
Speaker 1: can find in any genre, right, And I think the
Speaker 1: same is true in horror or like any like broad
Speaker 1: niche genre that tends to be true. And so this
Speaker 1: movie is wildly dated. I understand why it is not popular.
Speaker 1: We watched. I'm not even recommending it really. I just
Speaker 1: was surprised by the fact that women were presented in
Speaker 1: uh for the most part, in empathetic way, even though
Speaker 1: I did not agree with how everyone everyone's arc was resolved.
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna go too, and I'm gonna give one
Speaker 1: freent scene because she rocks, and one to Lily because
Speaker 1: she deserved better. And I hope that she you know,
Speaker 1: divorced ned six months later or whatever.
Speaker 2: Fingers crossed?
Speaker 1: Dad, what would you give this movie?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 1: Based on his portrayal of women intersectionally.
Speaker 4: Boy, I have to I have to do this. I'm
Speaker 4: not I'm not trained. I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: Whatever feels right in your heart.
Speaker 4: Yes, I guess two just because too, because nipples. Well, no,
Speaker 4: just because too. And I have to pick character.
Speaker 2: You can do you can distribute them or you can
Speaker 2: keep them, whatever you want to do.
Speaker 4: I mean, I like, I don't know, I just like,
Speaker 4: for inscene is A is a great character, you know,
Speaker 4: I mean, I like that part of you know how
Speaker 4: she's like. You know, I don't care if you you know,
Speaker 4: I know you, you know, I know you as a person,
Speaker 4: and you know you know you might be able to
Speaker 4: fool everybody else, you know, but you can't fool me
Speaker 4: anymore and goes to run a way and you know again,
Speaker 4: missus missus Hanrahan. I never remember her first. I just
Speaker 4: think that's a touching kind of a but that's that's
Speaker 4: a you know, that's quite a scene with her, and
Speaker 4: it's it's serious and funny, and I just really thought
Speaker 4: that that was a you know, probably back in the
Speaker 4: day it was like, oh, that's a gratuitous thing, you know,
Speaker 4: like look at this thing, but you know, look looked
Speaker 4: at now and her story and everything like that. I
Speaker 4: think that's you know, I don't know what to say.
Speaker 4: I can't say that I think that's great, but you
Speaker 4: know it, I mean, it's just one that like sticks
Speaker 4: with me anyway.
Speaker 2: I know what you mean. It would be a fine
Speaker 2: scene if the thing that happens after it didn't happen exactly.
Speaker 1: Right, right. That's why it's like this movie is just
Speaker 1: like frustrating in that way where you're like, wow, this
Speaker 1: is representation or like a character you would not normally
Speaker 1: see in a broad comedy, but then they're treated so
Speaker 1: poorly that you're like, well, why why did you go
Speaker 1: out of your way to do that? If you were
Speaker 1: just going to treat them as a plot point and
Speaker 1: never showed them again, which I think is also inherent
Speaker 1: to this genre in the ways that I don't know.
Speaker 1: I found it especially frustrating too, because it's like I
Speaker 1: thought Suzanne was in the one scene she had was
Speaker 1: presented with empathy and she was cool, and it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is really and then like we were talking about,
Speaker 1: like she's treated horrifically and we never get to see
Speaker 1: her again. We don't know what happens to her, and
Speaker 1: the movie doesn't really seem to have interest in it
Speaker 1: because she was ultimately just a plot point to get
Speaker 1: read to the next step.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So a complicated, a more complicated movie than I was expecting.
Speaker 1: And I'm glad we talked about it.
Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, and thanks for joining us, sad mister Mike.
Speaker 4: Oh hey, thanks for having me along.
Speaker 1: Happy to do it. Uh yeah, do you have anything
Speaker 1: you want to plug?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Where can people follow you on Twitter?
Speaker 4: I don't have us. There's no need to follow me
Speaker 4: on Twitter. My uh, my days are done. My days
Speaker 4: of mouthing off and I just uh, you know, which,
Speaker 4: I didn't do that much. I was not I was
Speaker 4: not the King of the hot takes, and now I
Speaker 4: am the king of the silent take. I'll just I'll
Speaker 4: just read along with you all nice. Well, well you
Speaker 4: know I could I could plug this, you know, this
Speaker 4: this podcast a certain book about hot dogs. You know,
Speaker 4: there's always something, but.
Speaker 1: Simply just google book about hot dogs. Yeah all right,
Speaker 1: Well well Dad, I really thank you for for coming
Speaker 1: on the show.
Speaker 4: And I really can believe you let us. You badgered
Speaker 4: us into doing this.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad we did though I don't know. It's
Speaker 1: my birthday. I'm a dictator and I get to do
Speaker 1: whatever I want.
Speaker 2: Yeah, happy birthday, Jamie.
Speaker 1: Thank you. This was a way to go.
Speaker 4: Jam Happy birthday.
Speaker 1: I remember he remembered it, and that's no I this
Speaker 1: this episode was very special to me, both of you.
Speaker 1: So thank you. I appreciate it, and I'm really glad
Speaker 1: we got to do it. Love you, Jamie, love you too.
Speaker 4: Way to go, Way to go team.
Speaker 1: We did it.
Speaker 2: We won, We won the championship game.
Speaker 1: We won. We randomly did a strip tease and somehow
Speaker 1: we want.
Speaker 4: To there the best podcast in the Federal League.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we are kind of and I say this
Speaker 1: with love, we are kind of a minor league podcast,
Speaker 1: and yet our fan base is intense and they fill
Speaker 1: the stand and we appreciate that we do because to
Speaker 1: be a big podcast you have to talk about murder
Speaker 1: in a dishonest way, and we don't do that. We
Speaker 1: don't want to we do, or you have to be
Speaker 1: like a fascist, so it's fine, or you have to
Speaker 1: be I know a lot about sports and we don't.
Speaker 2: We clearly demonstrated that today that we do not know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if there was any reason that now you know
Speaker 1: both did you both did?
Speaker 4: Great?
Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks so much. You can find us on.
Speaker 2: No we are nothing without the validation of men.
Speaker 1: It's true of dad.
Speaker 4: Oh no, it's so hard.
Speaker 1: I only I only he's crying, he's crying. There. You
Speaker 1: can find us online up at Bechdel Cast on Instagram
Speaker 1: and Twitter. You can sign up for Patreon aka Patreon,
Speaker 1: patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast, where you get two
Speaker 1: bonus episodes every month for mere five dollars and also
Speaker 1: get access to about one hundred and fifty episodes of
Speaker 1: back catalog on the Patreon. Wow and it's my birthday
Speaker 1: over there this month too. We really value birthdays on
Speaker 1: this podcast, so that's true, we'll be covering Little Shop
Speaker 1: of Horrors and a second one that on the day
Speaker 1: of this recording. I've not yet decided my second evil
Speaker 1: pick for the Patreon, but oh I will think of
Speaker 1: something and it will be annoying. So head over there
Speaker 1: for that.
Speaker 4: And Caitlin, when it comes happy birthday to YouTube, Thank
Speaker 4: you so much.
Speaker 2: It will be in about eight months.
Speaker 4: Okay something like that, so just keep that in mind.
Speaker 4: It's coming. I don't want to miss out my chance.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. And you can also get our
Speaker 2: merch at teapublic dot com slash the Bechdel Cast for
Speaker 2: our glorious items available for purchase at any time.
Speaker 1: And with that, why don't we get on this local
Speaker 1: parade float and lie about our wives leaving us.
Speaker 2: Let's do it.
Speaker 1: Bye bye, ay,