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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast.

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Speaker 3: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway.

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Speaker 2: It's a few weeks ago, but last month Trump was

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Speaker 2: in the was in Saudi Arabia, he was in the

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Speaker 2: Middle East, and he sold a bunch of chips.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the chip's announcement was kind of overshadowed

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Speaker 3: by some of the pomp and ceremony around that visit.

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Speaker 3: Did you see the famous hair flipping No, oh, you

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Speaker 3: didn't see that, So you need to look this up.

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Speaker 3: So when Trump arrived in the UAE, part of his

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Speaker 3: big you know, the greeting and the red carpet getting

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Speaker 3: rolled out for him was a bunch of emmiati women

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Speaker 3: doing a hair flipping dance. I gotta say, I wish

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Speaker 3: I could flip my hair like that, but sadly I

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Speaker 3: could not.

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Speaker 2: Can I say, like Trump seems very at home in

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Speaker 2: the Gulf States, you know what I'm saying, Like it

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Speaker 2: feels like, setting aside many other things that there is

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Speaker 2: like a similar sense of esthetics.

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Speaker 3: Grant I was about to say that he's like, I think.

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Speaker 2: He's very comfortable in those countries.

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Speaker 3: I was about to say, his taste in interior decorating

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Speaker 3: is exactly the same as what you see in palaces

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Speaker 3: and hotels in Saudi Arabia and places like that.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, No, I think just the whole vibe is like, oh,

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Speaker 2: his on home territory. But I think the AI stuff

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Speaker 2: is really interesting. Obviously, for a lot of reasons, the

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Speaker 2: US wants to sell more things. One of the things

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Speaker 2: that we can sell in various flavors is AI technology.

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Speaker 2: But there's this weird like I don't know what the

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Speaker 2: word cross currents or whatever, which is that we want

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Speaker 2: to sell more stuff, and yet we also don't want

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Speaker 2: our stuff to be in the hands of perceived geopolitical rivals,

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Speaker 2: and so we cut off our own sales. China is

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Speaker 2: obviously the most salient example here, but it sort of

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Speaker 2: makes this interesting tension when we think of the role

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Speaker 2: of AI sales tech sales in sort of international relations

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Speaker 2: and diplomacy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, I also find this interesting from the UAE slash

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Speaker 3: Abu Dhabi side of things, right, because the UAE, it's

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Speaker 3: strategically aligned with the US in many ways, but it's

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Speaker 3: very commercially aligned with China, and you know, you have

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Speaker 3: a lot of Chinese commerce coming through the ports and

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Speaker 3: things like that, so I'm very curious what they see

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Speaker 3: in this steal and how they're navigating those two sides

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: I'm very excited we have the perfect guest, someone one

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Speaker 2: of our colleagues we've had on the podcast before. We're

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Speaker 2: going to be speaking with Mackenzie Hawkins, tech and geopolitics

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Speaker 2: reporter Bloomberg News. She's now based in Hong Kong, sadly

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Speaker 2: for us, but thankfully she's you know, staying up late

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Speaker 2: for this recording. Mackenzie, thank you so much for coming

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Speaker 2: back on odd locks.

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Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: First of all, why don't you just give us the

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Speaker 2: specific details, as the salient details as you understand them

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Speaker 2: in terms of this big, big AI deal that Trump

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Speaker 2: announced when he did his golf tour.

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Speaker 4: So in the four day span or so that Trump

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Speaker 4: was in the Middle East, you saw American tech companies

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Speaker 4: and companies in golf nations announce hundreds of billions of

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Speaker 4: dollars worth of AI deals. Specifically, many of them focused

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Speaker 4: on AI infrastructure, building out the data centers that house

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Speaker 4: AI chips that are used to train and deploy large

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Speaker 4: language models, and that involved one of the biggest data

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Speaker 4: centers potentially in the world, a project anchored by the

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Speaker 4: Abu Dhabi AI firm G forty two, with key participation

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Speaker 4: from Oracle, from Open AI, from Nvidia, huge volumes of

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Speaker 4: Nvidia ship sales going to both the UAE and Saudi Arabia,

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Speaker 4: as well as sales from Nvidia's rival Advanced micro Devices,

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Speaker 4: and all told, we sort of ended the week, and

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Speaker 4: the deals announcements actually continued into the following week. We

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Speaker 4: ended this trip going from a world where the two

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Speaker 4: main players with significant AI data center capacity the US,

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Speaker 4: of course, and then China also has major ambitions and still,

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Speaker 4: even if all of these deals fall through as expected,

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Speaker 4: which is an if, the US will maintain the vast

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Speaker 4: majority of the world's computational power, but we have two

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Speaker 4: new serious players in the UAE and in Saudi Arabia.

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Speaker 3: One thing I know from living in Apudapi for a

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Speaker 3: couple of years is that Apudapi loves building a giant

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Speaker 3: campus with some sort of foreign partner like that is

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Speaker 3: always happening and seems to be happening more and more.

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Speaker 3: But okay, so from the US side. You know, the

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Speaker 3: US wants to be a powerful player in AI and

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Speaker 3: everything that comes with it, chips, data centers, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: And they want to sell that technology to other countries.

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Speaker 3: What's the issue with the deal? Why is it controversial?

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Speaker 4: So there are a couple of sort of categories of

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Speaker 4: disagreement in Washington, if you The first is a basic

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Speaker 4: economic competitive this argument. You have people, especially on the

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Speaker 4: Democratic side of the aisle, saying, you know, why are

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Speaker 4: we building a data center in Abu Dhabi when we

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Speaker 4: could be doing that in Ohio or in Pennsylvania. The

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Speaker 4: response from people who are in favor of these deals is,

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Speaker 4: we are building data centers in the US. Trump is

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Speaker 4: trying to cut red tape to facilitate data center deals

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Speaker 4: across the country, and the UAE accord, in particular, because

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Speaker 4: there's now a bilateral arrangement between American and AMRADI officials,

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Speaker 4: includes this reciprocal investment portion where you know, for the

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Speaker 4: amount that US companies are investing in the Gulf nation,

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Speaker 4: we'll get a reciprocal amount on American soil. But there

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Speaker 4: are still some people who say, why wouldn't we do

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Speaker 4: all of this on US soil? For as long as possible.

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Speaker 4: Then there's the China question, and that has been the

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Speaker 4: sort of central debate in the development of US global

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Speaker 4: export controls on semi connector chips that really ramped up

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Speaker 4: during the Biden administration, and now the Trump administration has

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Speaker 4: taken a very different tack, where the question is not,

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Speaker 4: you know, will we ever sell chips to markets in

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Speaker 4: the Middle East or in Southeast Asia, but what is

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Speaker 4: the risk that those chips could ultimately benefit China, either

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Speaker 4: by Chinese AI companies remotely accessing data centers in third

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Speaker 4: countries to train AI models from the physical hardware being

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Speaker 4: actually diverted and transshipped to China, or from those countries

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Speaker 4: taking American hardware and AI know how and then making

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Speaker 4: technically separate but kind of related investments in Chinese tech.

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Speaker 4: And so that's the rub, and the question is what

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Speaker 4: conditions is the US going to put on these deals

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Speaker 4: to ensure that you're safeguarding American technology and know how

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Speaker 4: and ensuring that in diffusing the technology around the world,

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Speaker 4: you're not inadvertently and benefiting a US adversary.

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Speaker 2: World quick specific question, are there stipulations in the deal

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Speaker 2: that setting aside the implementation of it that are designed

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Speaker 2: to create safeguards or checkpoints such that the chips that

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Speaker 2: go to the golf are then transship to Chinese data centers,

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Speaker 2: Like do they have some ostensible mechanism for avoiding that?

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Speaker 4: Yes, the US government has a small handful of export

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Speaker 4: control officers that operate globally, and by small I mean

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Speaker 4: like very low double digits that can go in and

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Speaker 4: like check physical facilities and see, okay, are the chips

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Speaker 4: still here? They talk to the data center operators and such.

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Speaker 4: The Trump administration has asked for more funding for the

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Speaker 4: agency that executes those controls, and there are high level

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Speaker 4: provisions in this bilateral arrangement between the US and the

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Speaker 4: UAE about preventing diversion to China. There are also high

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Speaker 4: level provisions about restricting China's remote access to facilities and

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Speaker 4: around inbound and outbound investment from China reciprocated with the

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Speaker 4: Gulf nations in question. Those are high level arrangements, and

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Speaker 4: the big company deals were announced when the security arrangements

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Speaker 4: remained at a fairly high level. And so there are

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Speaker 4: some folks in Washington who are concerned that the US

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Speaker 4: didn't hammer out all of the specifics dot every I,

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Speaker 4: cross every tea before announcing these deals and topping them

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Speaker 4: as major wins for American economic competitiveness and national security.

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Speaker 2: So it seems like when we talk about the US

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Speaker 2: China AI rivalry, there's two potential dimensions, which is one

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Speaker 2: is there's this sort of anxiety like China gonna achieve

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Speaker 2: AGI first or is it gonna raise ahead of you know,

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Speaker 2: are their labs gonna be better than our labs, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: But then there seems to be this other one and actually,

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Speaker 2: like David Sachs, the All In podcast host but also

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Speaker 2: Trump's as are, seems to have a slightly different spin

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Speaker 2: on the question, which is just like, no, like we

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Speaker 2: really should just want as much US tech currently diffused

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Speaker 2: out in the world, that the dominance of the Kuda

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Speaker 2: ecosystem and Nvidia, et cetera is what we should really

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Speaker 2: care about, and that we're cutting our shooting ourselves at

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Speaker 2: the foot if we get too nervous about where our

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Speaker 2: chips are.

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Speaker 3: Going in the world.

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Speaker 4: David Sachs basically defined winning in the AI race as

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Speaker 4: capturing the vast majority of the global market for AI hardware,

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Speaker 4: and of course, the US ability to do. That is

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Speaker 4: a function of Vidia's dominance and US restrictions that have

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Speaker 4: been levied for years on China's semiconductor industry and its

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Speaker 4: ability to build a chip making prowess. So we've seen

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Speaker 4: actually a couple of estimates recently of what china se

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Speaker 4: conductor landscape looks like. You had Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnik

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Speaker 4: tell the Senate Appropriations Committee last week. He was asked

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Speaker 4: by a senators and oh, I think I've read that

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Speaker 4: China can make less than four hundred thousand advanced chips

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Speaker 4: a year, And Lutinix said, actually, no, they say they're

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Speaker 4: making them, and they're not. It's probably closer to two

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Speaker 4: hundred thousand. He didn't define what chips he was talking about.

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Speaker 4: Advanced chips could include mobile processors, for example, in addition

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Speaker 4: to AI chips, But for the sake of discussion, let's

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Speaker 4: say it's waways ascend AI chips, which are the best

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Speaker 4: domestic model in China. That number is really far short

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Speaker 4: of China's domestic demand, which the market research firm tech

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Speaker 4: Insights put at around one point five million AI accelerators

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Speaker 4: in twenty twenty four. Compared to what Lennink says is

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Speaker 4: two hundred thousand that China can domestically produce. There's another

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Speaker 4: estimate out there from the research firm Semi Analysis that

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Speaker 4: says China can produce around three hundred and eighty thousand

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Speaker 4: of its most advanced AI chips domestically and that will

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Speaker 4: reach multiple millions next year. Now, in addition to China's

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Speaker 4: domestic chip making capacity, there is also a significant infusion

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Speaker 4: that Huawei got from ordering a reported two point nine

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Speaker 4: million chips from TSMC, the global leader in actual chip manufacturing,

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Speaker 4: through an intermediary that has since been sanctioned by the

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Speaker 4: US government. And that's not an insignificant one time infusion

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Speaker 4: into China's stockpile. Now, the Biden administration released a rule

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Speaker 4: in their final week in office increasing due diligence requirements

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Speaker 4: for foundries, which are the companies that actually make chips

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Speaker 4: designed by others. And TSMC hasn't commented publicly on the

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Speaker 4: two point nine million number, but they said that they're

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Speaker 4: cooperating with a US investigation into the matter. So the

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Speaker 4: question for the US is not will China ever develop

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Speaker 4: good chips that can compete on a global scale. I

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Speaker 4: don't think that policymakers from the Biden administration to the

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Speaker 4: Trump administration have any reservations really about thinking, of course,

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Speaker 4: China's a serious competitive technological player. It's about when that

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Speaker 4: could happen, and when that could happen in a way

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Speaker 4: that would allow China to export in significant quantities to

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Speaker 4: foreign markets. So there's this really interesting example that happened

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Speaker 4: a couple of weeks ago where the Deputy Communications Minister

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Speaker 4: in Malaysia, in a speech that was picked up in

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Speaker 4: local media, said we have this new national AI system

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Speaker 4: that's powered by three thousand Huawei Ascent chips. Now, three

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Speaker 4: thousand chips is like a super small number of chips.

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Speaker 4: It's a fraction of what's needed for a mid sized

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Speaker 4: data center. But it was the first known example, or

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Speaker 4: at least one of the first note examples, at least

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Speaker 4: the first that I attract of an international deployment from China.

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Speaker 4: And so there was this big reaction in DC of like,

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Speaker 4: oh my god, it's happening. David Zachs tweeted, as I've

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Speaker 4: been warning, the full Chinese stack is here. We rescinded

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Speaker 4: the Biden diffusion rule just in time. That's a reference

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Speaker 4: to global semiconductor controls that the Biden administration imposed on

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Speaker 4: pretty much the entire world in their last week in office,

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Speaker 4: and David sax finished, the American AI stack needs to

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Speaker 4: be unleashed to compete. So I was super interested in this.

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Speaker 4: My colleagues in kual Umpur were super interested in this,

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Speaker 4: and so we called the Malaysian Communications Ministry. We said, hey,

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Speaker 4: can we get some more information about this project and

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Speaker 4: they said, oh, we're retracting the Wawei part of that speech.

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Speaker 4: Now important in context for this is that it came

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Speaker 4: a couple of days after the US Commerce Department had

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Speaker 4: issued guidance saying that it considers the use of Huawei's

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Speaker 4: ascendships anywhere in the world to be a violation of

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Speaker 4: US export controls. Now they've since removed that anywhere in

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Speaker 4: the world. Line, it's like this whole thing and the

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Speaker 4: ongoing units China US China trade negotiations. But that's an

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Speaker 4: important piece of understanding Malaysia's reaction here. So we published

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Speaker 4: a story that was basically like Malaysia's distancing itself from

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Speaker 4: this Huawei project. And the response that David Sachs had

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Speaker 4: to that after on Twitter was that's not a lot

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Speaker 4: of chips, but it does show China's intent to export

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Speaker 4: the Huawei plus Deep Seek stack. Deep Seek was also

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Speaker 4: part of Malaysia's approach, and it's a harbinger of what's

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Speaker 4: to come.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 4: Malaysia is like, we're going to assert our sovereignty. We

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Speaker 4: get to decide which technology we want to use. But

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Speaker 4: it was really interesting to watch the reaction to this

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Speaker 4: play out in DC because, on the one hand, some

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Speaker 4: people treated it as evidence that the threat they've been

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Speaker 4: warning about is here and the US therefore needs to

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Speaker 4: be super aggressive about exporting Nvidia chips as quickly and

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Speaker 4: as widely and in as large quantities as possible. And

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Speaker 4: there are some people who read it as this is propaganda,

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Speaker 4: This is Huawei trying to demonstrate that it can export

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Speaker 4: internationally when really it can't even meet domestic demand. Now,

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Speaker 4: last thing I'll say here before I turn it back

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Speaker 4: over to you guys, is there was a really interesting

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Speaker 4: interview with Wawai's founder in People's Daily, the official newspaper

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Speaker 4: of the Chinese Communist Party, just I guess today in

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Speaker 4: Hong Kong yesterday in DC, depending time zone you're in,

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Speaker 4: where he said Huawei's actually still behind the US. US

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Speaker 4: overestimating our capabilities, but we're making progress now. It will

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Speaker 4: always still constrained, in large part due to US restrictions

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Speaker 4: on semiconductor manufacturing equipment.

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Speaker 3: Since you brought up the global export controls on chips,

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Speaker 3: it seems to me like there's a fundamental tension here

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Speaker 3: where if you want to export US technology, you kind

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Speaker 3: of have to accept that some of the risk is

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Speaker 3: that it's going to leak into parts of the world

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Speaker 3: where you know, you might not want it to be,

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Speaker 3: so China, And when I imagine, you know, if the

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Speaker 3: US says it wants to release its tech stack globally, sorry,

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Speaker 3: I have an image in my mind, it's like, release

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Speaker 3: the hounds, release the tech stacks. If they want to

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Speaker 3: do that, it seems like I guess they either have

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Speaker 3: to fine tune the export controls or harden them up.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not entirely sure how they would do that,

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Speaker 3: given that we already had the experience of the Biden

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Speaker 3: administration's export controls, Like what levers can they actually pull

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Speaker 3: here to ensure that American technology goes global, But at

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Speaker 3: the same time, it doesn't go global in a way

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Speaker 3: that we don't want it to.

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Speaker 4: It's a really challenging question. I mean, that's why you

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Speaker 4: saw the Biden administration essentially pause large scale Nvidia and

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Speaker 4: am Dai chip shipments for the better part of a year.

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Speaker 4: You know, the US restrictions the like. Really US restrictions

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Speaker 4: on AI chips started in October twenty twenty two, a

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Speaker 4: date that anybody in the Chinese tech industry would remember

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Speaker 4: when the US said all right, no more in Vidia

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Speaker 4: exports of China without a license at the highest end

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Speaker 4: of video technology. That's a month before chad GPT launched.

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Speaker 4: And if you think about what's happened in the you know,

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Speaker 4: nearly three years since then, there's this massive interest from

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Speaker 4: countries all over the world in developing what's you know,

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Speaker 4: people in the industry called sovereign AI, basically the idea

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Speaker 4: that as a nation, you have the hardware and software

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Speaker 4: infrastructure to develop, train, deploy your own AIM models. And

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Speaker 4: the Gulf is a really interesting first case study of

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Speaker 4: a really organized ambition to make that happen. But there

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Speaker 4: are countries all over the world that want that. In

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Speaker 4: video CEO Trens and Wong has been talking about that

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Speaker 4: for a very long time. Mean, Sam Altman has been

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Speaker 4: going to the Middle East looking for funding for US

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Speaker 4: infrastructure projects, of course, setting up what became this five

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Speaker 4: gigawat data center in Abu Dhabi, and the Biden administration,

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Speaker 4: after they restricted shipments to China in twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 4: followed up a year later expanding the restrictions not just

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Speaker 4: on the technology that can go to China, but also

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Speaker 4: the global footprint of the controls, and they added around

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Speaker 4: forty countries on the basis of the risk of diversion

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Speaker 4: to China. And then about a year after that, in

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Speaker 4: their very final week in office, they released this global

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Speaker 4: framework called the AI Diffusion Rule that basically split the

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Speaker 4: world into three categories of chip access. In Tier one,

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Speaker 4: you had the US and very close partner countries that

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Speaker 4: the Biden administration viewed to have similar export control regimes

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Speaker 4: and capacities to those offered by Washington. In Tier three

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Speaker 4: the bottom, where you have your China, Russia or on

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Speaker 4: North Korea US adversaries that basically just continue to not

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Speaker 4: have effectively access to advanced American tech. And then you

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Speaker 4: had everybody in the middle, which was most of the world,

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Speaker 4: everybody from treaty allies like Poland to Singapore to Yemen,

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Speaker 4: and the Biden administration's approach was, we're going to cap

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Speaker 4: the number of chips that can go to these countries.

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Speaker 4: But a company can apply for a license called a

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Speaker 4: validated end user designation, which is fancy Washington speak for basically,

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Speaker 4: I'll submit to you the security requirements that I'm going

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Speaker 4: to apply to a data center that I'm going to

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Speaker 4: build an X, Y, and Z place, and in exchange,

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Speaker 4: you were going to can make it easier for me

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Speaker 4: to get licenses to ship to that place in the future.

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Speaker 4: And because I've made all of those security promises, my

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Speaker 4: projects are going to be exempted from the national cap

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Speaker 4: in this place. And the Biden administration's goal was to

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Speaker 4: set that cap at a level that incentivized companies like

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Speaker 4: Microsoft or like Oracle to agree to a bunch of

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Speaker 4: security conditions, apply for licenses, and then sure, go ahead

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Speaker 4: build your data centers in the places that you want to,

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Speaker 4: as long as you keep most of your compute capacity

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Speaker 4: in the US and friendly countries, and no more than

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Speaker 4: seven percent of your computing capacity in any one country

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Speaker 4: that is in another tier. So this immensely complicated regulation

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Speaker 4: got a lot of blowback from all over the tech industry.

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Speaker 4: Although a couple of supporters of some of the provisions

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Speaker 4: in Nvidia will surprise nobody was one of the strongest opponents.

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Speaker 4: Oracle was also a huge opponent because that cap on

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Speaker 4: putting more than seven percent of your capacity in any

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Speaker 4: one country was a big problem for Oracle's massive plan

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Speaker 4: data center Expanision in Malaysia. So you had this big

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Speaker 4: jockeying for position among tech companies and also among countries,

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Speaker 4: some of whom were like, we cannot execute the plans

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Speaker 4: that we want to within the constraints of this cap.

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Speaker 4: Others of whom didn't necessarily have super ambitious data center plans,

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Speaker 4: but we're kind of like, what the heck, Like, why

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Speaker 4: are we being put in the same category as this

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Speaker 4: country or this country or this country. I mean, you

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Speaker 4: had a couple of European Union nations that were put

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Speaker 4: in Tier two, but most of them were put in

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Speaker 4: the most preferential tier, and so the EU is like, Okay,

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Speaker 4: we're trying to disrupt free trade within the block. And

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Speaker 4: that debate sort of carried out all throughout the first

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Speaker 4: couple of months of the Trump administration. Before the Trump

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Speaker 4: officials decided all right, we're acting that rule and we're

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Speaker 4: going to work on a replacement. And the deals that

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Speaker 4: we saw happen in the UAE and Saudi Arabia are

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Speaker 4: the best indication that we have so far of what

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Speaker 4: that replacement could look like. And we're shifting from this,

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Speaker 4: you know, big global regulation to a lot of country

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Speaker 4: specific deals that will probably have some commonalities but will

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Speaker 4: really be negotiated on a bilateral basis.

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Speaker 2: The absolutely fascinating topic, and you explain it very clearly,

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Speaker 2: Mackenzie Hawkins. Thank you so much for coming back on

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Speaker 2: odd Lots. Thank you so much for staying up late

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Speaker 2: for the recording, and talk to you soon hopefully.

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Speaker 4: Thanks much for having me.

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Speaker 2: I find this story to be extremely fascinating for multiple reasons.

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Speaker 2: I guess one is like, you know, when we think

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Speaker 2: about like export controls, or I think about what you sell,

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Speaker 2: you know, you have to think like traditionally like defense tech, right,

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Speaker 2: and so it's like, okay, you have to make a

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Speaker 2: deal at the high level before one country can buy

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Speaker 2: jets or whatever from you. But this is AI is

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Speaker 2: so weird because it's also just this commercial tech that

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Speaker 2: companies are going to use in random chatbots and software

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Speaker 2: as a service applications, et cetera. And yet we still

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Speaker 2: sort of treat it as potentially being defense like in

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Speaker 2: its implication.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of funny. I'm thinking now, imagine like

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Speaker 3: reading one of the stories about AI and China US

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Speaker 3: competition and replacing like chatbots AI with ballistic missiles, and

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Speaker 3: like what that language would actually read like. But okay,

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Speaker 3: two things here. So it is true people talk about

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Speaker 3: the race for AI supremacy in these sort of militaristic terms,

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Speaker 3: which obviously raises the question of what exactly success looks

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Speaker 3: like in this sphere. And you brought up the point that,

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Speaker 3: you know, some people seem to think it's achieving AGI

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Speaker 3: for some people like Lutnik, and some people like sex

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Speaker 3: seem to think that it's basically taking market share or

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Speaker 3: having dominant market share. And I don't know, Like, it's

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Speaker 3: strikes me that there's there's probably not going to be

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Speaker 3: a moment when the US can declare victory or China

404
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Speaker 3: can declare victory, but we should at least have some

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Speaker 3: sort of like agreed idea of where we're heading here.

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Speaker 3: And then the second thing I was thinking about is

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Speaker 3: again because all of this is constantly couched in militaristic

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Speaker 3: language and basically competition between the world's two biggest economies.

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Speaker 3: You can think of data centers as critical infrastructure, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And so I guess the question is should we be

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Speaker 3: building more critical infrastructure in a place like the UAE.

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Speaker 3: On the one hand, you know, the US and the

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Speaker 3: UAE have a strong partnership. There's a US military presence

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Speaker 3: in the UAE already, US border control at the airport,

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Speaker 3: which is very, very convenient. But you know, we also

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Speaker 3: get oil from the Middle East, and I kind of

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Speaker 3: wonder if we want to like double down on our

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Speaker 3: infrastructure related dependence on that particular region.

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Speaker 2: So on the one hand, the day Sacks view is like,

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Speaker 2: this is a business right and the goal is to

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Speaker 2: you know, have greater market share, et cetera. But part

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Speaker 2: of the reason anyone is even talking about this and

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Speaker 2: such and where every country needs to have their own

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Speaker 2: compute is because there is this perception that it's existential technology.

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Speaker 2: So the two sides like they sort of play off

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Speaker 2: of each other this. You know, there's always this sort

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Speaker 2: of like Baptist and bootleggers sort of way. I think

428
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Speaker 2: about this, where both sides of these questions end up

429
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Speaker 2: boosting each other because David's view is like, Oh, all

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Speaker 2: of this, all of this worrying is wrong, and it's

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Speaker 2: just it's a business and we want to have more

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Speaker 2: market share, and all of the he's very critical of,

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Speaker 2: like the AI doomers who think it's going to destroy

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Speaker 2: all the jobs, because he claims, oh, this is a

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Speaker 2: trojan horse for more regulation of the tech, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: And yet if it weren't for the AI doomers, if

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Speaker 2: it weren't for all the people thinking this is existential technology,

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Speaker 2: the wouldn't be that much demand to just absolutely have

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Speaker 2: this many chips within your bod, etc. So in all

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Speaker 2: of these stories with AI, it's like there's different perspectives,

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Speaker 2: and even people on opposite sides of the debate end

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Speaker 2: up like bolstering the others beating each other in anyway,

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Speaker 2: I think these are interesting stories to watch. I had

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Speaker 2: missed that whole thing with Huawei ostensibly and then Malaysia

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Speaker 2: backtracking about its involvement, but certainly their AI chips being

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00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 2: used globally would be a very interesting development to watch.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, lots more to talk about on this topic, I'm

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00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 3: sure shall we leave it there for now?

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00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 2: Let's leave it there.

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Speaker 3: This has been another episode of the Odd Thoughts podcast.

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Speaker 3: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

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00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 2: And I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart.

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00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 2: Follow our guest Mackenzie Hawkins, She's at mac Hawk. Follow

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Speaker 2: our producers Kerman Rodriguez at Kerman armand dash Ol Bennett

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Speaker 2: at dashbod and kil Brooks at Cale Brooks. From our

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Speaker 2: odd Lots content, go to Bloomberg dot com slash odd Lots,

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Speaker 2: and you can shut about all of these topics twenty

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Speaker 2: four seven in our discord Discord dot gg slash.

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Speaker 3: Odd Lots And if you enjoy odd Lots, if you

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