WEBVTT - Pod Meets World 2/19/24 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:04.400 The following episode will be discussing childhood sexual abuse, grooming 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.720 and the effects they can have. It also contains uncensored 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:10.920 adult language. These subject matters can be sensitive for many 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:13.160 of us, and if you find yourself at all worried 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:16.000 about listening to this episode, please skip right past this 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:19.160 one and we will return to our regular programming next week. 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:22.520 With this in mind, here's this week's episode of pod 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:23.120 Meets World. 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:46.880 Hello, Welcome to pod meets World. 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:49.720 This episode is going to be a little out of 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:53.000 format and with a slightly different tone, but we do 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:55.160 hope that you will stick with it as we think 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:57.920 this is going to be a very important discussion, not 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:00.760 only for us, but for you as well. When we 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:03.040 decided to embark on the journey that is pod meets 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:05.800 World a few years back, we set a few guidelines 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:07.840 for ourselves, and at the top of the list was 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:10.199 that we were going to be as honest and open 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:14.039 as possible, because regardless of how many people listened, we 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:15.600 knew that if we were going to look back on 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.280 our childhoods, it would mean a whole lot to us. 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.520 We weren't going to shy away from anything just because 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:25.039 it was uncomfortable or inconvenient, and so far all three 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:27.959 of us have agreed talking about our shared history on 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:31.120 this podcast, The good and the Bad has become the 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:33.600 body of work we are most proud of in our careers, 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:37.080 and so today we face one of those uncomfortable and 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.800 inconvenient moments. Every episode we mentioned the guest stars that 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:43.039 you're going to see, We say their name, and we 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:45.520 mentioned the other shows they've been on. And with season 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:48.120 five looming close, we know that we'll need to address 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:50.960 an actor and behind the scenes figure who appeared on 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:53.560 the show starting in nineteen ninety seven, and we knew 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:57.240 this deserved a more detailed discussion, especially even since we 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.760 as hosts are still unpacking everything involved, and we know 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:03.880 that discourse around this subject has culturally ramped up, with 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:07.080 Will and Writer even being contacted recently for a statement. 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:10.480 So we decided to talk about it here on our podcast, 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:13.280 where we can dig much deeper than one sentence. 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:15.079 This episode is. 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:18.360 Unrehearsed or really not pre produced at all outside of 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:21.160 this intro, and we are taping it without knowing when 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:23.520 it will air, and we have reached out to an 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:27.200 expert family therapist, Katie Morton. Katie has been on the 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:30.800 forefront of the mental health movement since twenty eleven, demystifying 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:34.960 mental health myths and replacing stigmas with understanding, amassing over 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.280 one point three million subscribers on YouTube and over one 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:41.680 hundred and twenty million views of help. She's released two books, 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:44.360 Are You Okay, A Guide to Caring for Mental health 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:47.079 and the book that brought her to us today, twenty 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:51.920 twenty one's Traumatized, Identify, Understand and Cope with PTSD and 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:52.840 Emotional Stress. 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:55.440 Hello Katie, Hi, thanks for having. 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:56.760 Me, Thank you for being here. 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:00.800 In nineteen ninety seven, for the start of season, a 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:02.920 new stand in was brought on the show. He had 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:06.200 worked on sitcoms before Boymeet's World in similar capacities, also 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:08.760 moonlighting as an acting coach, and as you've learned from 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.880 this podcast, since it takes a village to produce television, 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.120 he was added to a roster that was always constantly changing, 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:18.320 and so this is when Brian Peck entered Our Lives. 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:21.120 He would eventually become a mainstay on set, not just 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:23.040 working on the show and appearing on it with many 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:25.240 small rules until it concluded in two thousand and one, 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:29.120 but integrating himself into Will and Writer's personal life, becoming 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.120 part of their most trusted inner circle, despite being more 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:34.920 than fifteen years older than both of them and crossing 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:38.480 many workplace boundaries. And then in August of two thousand 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.280 and three, he was arrested in Los Angeles, then forty 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:43.720 three years old, for lude acts with a child that 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:46.200 occurred in two thousand and one with an underage student 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:48.920 he was coaching. To say this came as a shock 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:51.520 to us at the time would have been an understatement. 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.320 We saw no signs of this behavior and were not 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.840 victimized ourselves, and were constantly being told by this person 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:01.280 who was our friend that he was the actual victim. 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.480 In the end, he was convicted and spent sixteen months 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.080 in prison. There had been reports of him working on 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.160 sets that involved kid actors after his release, with watchdog 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.560 groups and media outlets correctly staying vigilant on his actions, 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.760 but we couldn't confirm anything outside of what we've read online. 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:18.960 So here we are today to have an honest and 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:22.200 open discussion about a hot button topic in Hollywood and 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.360 hopes that this will not just become another clickbait headline, 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:29.200 but rather lead people to this episode a longer open 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:34.920 and raw dialogue about sexual predators, manipulation, and grooming. Katie, 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:37.040 I'm going to let you take it from here, and 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.520 we thank you so very much for joining us, as 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.520 we want to be very considerate of any victims involved. 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:45.919 Yeah, of course, thanks for having me. I think I 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:50.080 mean is it's a difficult topic to address because the 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:52.280 thing that I think I first want to talk about 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:55.760 is to help people understand what the term grooming means, 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:58.760 because I think it's wonderful and social media that we 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:01.640 talk about things. People use language and you know, we're 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.120 sharing information, but sometimes that comes with a lack of 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:11.520 actual understanding. And the thing about grooming that makes it difficult, painful, 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:16.000 and confusing is because it is a form of manipulation, 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:18.360 and a lot of people don't understand that. I think, oh, 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:20.840 if I was groomed, then that means that something happened 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:22.800 to me in that moment they were harming me. We 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:25.760 think of like abuse itself, right, and grooming in and 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:28.880 of itself is not like a criminal act. It's not 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:32.520 something I can diagnose. It's not something that is even 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.960 often noticed. And the reason for it is that when 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:41.440 someone's being groomed, the entire goal is to get something 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:45.240 from another person, meaning that if let's say I'm the 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:50.320 abuser and I'm grooming you, Daniel, I might make friends 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:53.760 with your parents, I might make friends with your friends. 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:58.960 I might try to get a job at the same place. 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:01.240 Let's say we both work at a restaurant. Right, I'll 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:04.440 try to kind of weasel my way into your life 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:08.039 so that other people in your life will vouch for me. 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:11.760 And I think that's what is really hard for people 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:14.560 to understand and what ends up kind of causing what 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:17.800 i'd call like cognitive dissonance, like this, these can't occur together. 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:20.200 It's like, but this was my friend or this was 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:22.240 a person in my life. I worked with them for years. 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:24.479 In your case, it was on the set, and you're like, this, 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:30.200 nothing happened to me, right, but they did these horrible things, 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:33.479 And then it's like it's really hard for us to 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:37.680 make sense of it. Hence why grooming is effective. And 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:39.560 I know that sounds kind of icky and that makes 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:41.680 us all want to like rip our skin off, like 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:45.880 h but that's kind of That's the reason it works 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.120 is because it's slow and steady manipulation to find a 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:52.479 way to get into our life to either harm us 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.279 or to harm someone close to us. That's why I said, like, 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:57.120 I could become friends with your parents or friends with 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:00.360 your parents, you know, your friends, because the whole goal 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:05.480 is to to have you put your walls down right 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:06.239 feel safe. 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:08.960 Can I ask a quick question, I'm sorry, no, cut 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:12.280 your goal for it? Does the abuser know they're doing this? 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:17.840 Yes and no. It depends on the person. I think 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:21.880 the awareness isn't there because they're the ultimate goal is 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:24.960 to get whatever it is they want. So let's say 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:28.080 it is sexual abuse of a minor. If they're attracted 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:30.920 to a certain kid or a certain person, then the 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:33.640 goal is to get that. Does that make sense? So 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:35.600 whether or not they're really aware of oh, what I'm 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:39.800 doing is like grooming behavior. It's almost like like when 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:41.480 you're a kid, you know, and you want your parents 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:43.520 to let you go to a party and they've said no, 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:47.080 and you're like, I'm going to ask dad. I already 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:49.200 asked mom. She said no, I'm gonna I'm going to 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:52.480 try another way. It's that same type of experience where 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:56.120 the goal is to get that end result and we 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:59.760 don't care how we get to it. That's a good question. 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:14.880 Well, when you mentioned the parent situation, like that you 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.480 might become friends with my parents, is the goal in 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:22.920 that situation that my parents would then trust you, So 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.840 now my parents will allow you to have access to me. 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:28.640 And if my parents trust you, it may help me 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.880 feel more trustworthy around you too, because it's like, well, 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:35.079 you know, when you look around and you go, hey, 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:38.680 if we all agree that this person's cool, there's much 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:41.439 less questioning that needs to go on about whether or 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:45.840 not this person is cool because we all agree. 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:49.120 And I think, especially in the case of being like 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:54.040 a child star, you have a often more responsibilities than 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:58.160 a normal child, and unfortunately that can also come with 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:01.199 less protectorates, like our parents might not be as involved. 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:03.880 Which I don't know how this person worked their way 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:07.360 into your life specifically, but my hypothesis would be that 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:09.960 they made friends with your friends and started hanging out 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:13.040 to make it more normalized little by little, because then 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:15.880 it doesn't feel because that person was way older, right, 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:20.400 which as adults now, if we saw like remove ourselves 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.200 from it, if we saw like a fifteen year old 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.160 hanging out with a thirty year old, we'd be like, yeah, 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:27.760 I mean, I'm forty and I don't even think I 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.400 can really hang with like twenty year olds, right, I 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:33.320 think I can until we're together, and then I'm like, 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:35.920 oh my god, I guess I am forty, So I 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:39.640 think that what might have been an automatic, Oh this 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:45.120 is weird kind of Then it's slow, but sure, we 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.959 get to know other people. They bring them around, We 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:50.439 bring them around, and it's that slow and steady kind 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:52.480 of wiggling in to where all of a sudden it 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:53.240 feels normal. 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:53.680 Right. 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.240 No parent was probably there to be like, hey, this 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:58.840 is an adult, you're still children. 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:02.200 That's all we did though, as kids child act with adults. 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:04.840 You hung out with adults all the time. We were adults. 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.000 Other than our ages. We were treated completely and totally 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:11.880 as adults. There was unless you were really a kid, 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:13.960 like a kid kid like Lily nick Say who was 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.440 five or six at the time, or even when Lindsay 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.960 came on and she was eleven, if you were fourteen, fifteen, 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:24.680 sixteen hanging out with people that were forty forty five fifty. 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:26.000 Was you did that experience? 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:26.520 I was yeah. 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:30.360 There was no you were treated there there was no 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:33.920 age gap. It just didn't exist on a set. You 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.240 were everyone was thrown together, and it didn't mad. There 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.920 might have been a hierarchy when it came to more 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:41.679 powerful positions of who you. 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:43.080 Were I was going to show. 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.200 But in a weird way, it actually inverted those hierarchies 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:49.520 because we were show. Yeah we have the power, right like, 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:52.200 and we were in we were in positions of authority 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:56.480 weirdly to the other people that we were working with, 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:59.400 Like I mean we by especially by like season five, 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:03.520 the show's you going to go on with or without 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:07.120 certain stand ins or directors or stage managers. It's not 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:08.839 going to go on without us, And. 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:09.840 We've gone like that. 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.520 If you said we don't want them on the set anymore, 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:13.240 that would have been it. 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:14.040 It would have been gone. 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:18.360 But the idea of seeing you know, on the street 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:22.160 in everyday life, if you see two friends one of 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.720 them's forty and one of them seventeen, it looks weird. 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:28.679 On a set, it looks completely and totally normal. 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:30.200 Yeah it's on a set, it does. 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:34.040 But this person also then did go to events you 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.160 guys would have, you know, parties, you would have after work. 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:40.920 And again it's part of like I know, for me 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:46.079 as a teenager, when the adults treated me like an adult. 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:49.400 That made me feel so good because all I wanted, 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:52.440 is I've courted, was to be seen, was to be 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.640 an adult, and was to be mature enough to hang 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:59.800 out with other adults. So them coming to a party 0:11:59.920 --> 0:12:02.320 or them hanging out with my friends didn't make me 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:05.880 think badly of them. It made me think very highly 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:10.800 of myself. Eli's an unfair thing for the kid in 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:14.319 a relationship to go, hey, it's. 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:16.280 Is it weird that you want to hang out with me? 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:18.760 It should be the adult. 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:20.959 Who knows, Yes, what on earth am I going to 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:23.520 do hanging out with a bunch of kids Like that's 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.280 a boundary I couldn't cross. I mean, I know on 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:29.240 Girl Meets World, the kids always wanted me to do 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:31.560 things with them, and sometimes I did. Sometimes we'd go 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:33.480 to lunch, but for the most part, I was very 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.720 much like, guys, you guys are a core group of 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:40.600 teen friends, and that's great you guys foster that relationship. 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:43.080 But just because we all work together doesn't mean I 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:45.480 should be at your hangouts like chat totally. 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:47.840 And I know that's why you're a little more vulnerable 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:52.120 in that particular situation when you feel like you're the adult, 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:54.880 or you have as much power. The power dynamic is 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:58.000 a little bit off, and there aren't I assume for 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.520 most of you, your parents weren't like onset every day. 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.680 Checking out by season five. 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.000 Yeah, and so the people in your life who should 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:10.840 have been like this is weird because you again, like 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.760 to Daniel's point, like you're not supposed to as a kid, 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:17.480 be the one that's like this isn't right. You know, 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:19.520 we want to be cool. I remember when I was 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:21.600 a kid, like counting down the days until I was 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:25.559 sixteen or eighteen or twenty one, Like everything was like 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:28.160 I wanted to be responsible. I wanted people to take 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:33.320 me seriously, and that was taken advantage of, you know, 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:37.040 and that that's why adults, that's why there are protectants 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.559 in place for children on sets, especially the little ones, 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.840 because and obvious this is probably also why it happens 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:48.000 a lot in Hollywood is because children and teenagers in 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:52.199 particular are very vulnerable. Because what teen doesn't want to 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.000 be cool, doesn't want to hang out with the older kids. 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:57.760 I mean, even you could people might not like this, 0:13:57.840 --> 0:13:59.880 but like when you're eighteen, when I was a kid 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:01.559 group in a really small town, so like you try 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:03.560 to get your older brother to buy you beer, and 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:05.720 like you want to be old and cool, and like, 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:10.240 I think that that can sometimes get confused, and that 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.680 can you know, there's no bone in my body that 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.240 says that it's appropriate for, like, you know, a thirty 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.360 year old to be hanging out with fifteen year olds. 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:21.920 That's one of the reasons I'm struggling so much of this, 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:24.360 and it's been bothering me for so long is I 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:25.120 wasn't fifteen. 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:28.400 I was like nineteen, and. 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:32.240 I wanted because I'd been an actor for so long, 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:34.200 because I've been living by myself. I want to look 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.920 back and think that I was worldly and there's no 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:40.200 way that I could have been taken advantage of at 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:42.040 that age, and there's no way that I could be 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:44.680 manipulated like this because I was an adult. 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:47.440 And that's one of the things that's really. 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.080 Sticking with me more than anything else, is that I 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:54.520 have this anger towards myself of where it's like, you 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:56.920 were supposed to know this then. 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:00.760 Were you, though I don't, I mean in my head 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:01.160 I was. 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.400 I was, you know, by the time I had heard 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:09.320 what had happened, I'd known this man for years and years, 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:12.760 had no idea that any of this was going on, obviously, 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:17.440 and the idea that now at twenty four or whatever, 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:19.160 I was twenty four to twenty five when when it 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:23.800 happened and found out about it that I didn't know, 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:28.040 couldn't spot it, didn't I mean, that was a failure, 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:30.400 my own failure in my mind, where it was like, 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.440 I I don't know, I don't even I don't even 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:35.400 know how to put half of what I'm feeling into words, 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:36.760 to be totally honest with you. And I've been thinking 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:38.600 about it for a long time now, and it's just 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:40.720 that's one of the things that's really sticking with me 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:42.840 is it was like I'd love to say, oh it 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:44.800 was because I was going through my anxiety, it was 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.400 because I was only twenty foot, But there's no in 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:50.800 my head, there's no excuses to where it's like, how 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:51.520 did you not see this? 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:52.160 How did you not? 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:53.560 I don't know? 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:58.600 It's I hear you and I think, unfortunately there's a 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:00.840 lot pack a couple things, and you let me know 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:02.320 if you're like Katie, your way off base, you can 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:05.360 tell me like that's stupid. I don't agree, but I 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:09.280 think when we when we look back as adults, So 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:11.360 I mean, I don't know how old each and every 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:14.240 one of you are, but I'm forty. Even at twenty five, 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.240 I would say I was like adult light, right, like 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.720 they you know, right. But when we look back on 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:23.840 old experiences with our adult glasses, it's hard for us 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:26.120 to know or remember what it was like to actually 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.720 be a kid that at that age nineteen I would 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:30.360 still say as a kid, I mean I was a kid, 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:34.280 like I was not making good decisions. So we forget 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:37.440 what it's like. And then you're judging younger you with 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:41.040 adult use knowledge, right, and younger you didn't even know. 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:43.520 And I think that's the tricky thing when it comes 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:46.240 to any abusive situation. And I know abuse can feel 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.080 like a big word, but abuse, like in this case, 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:51.960 if you were manipulated to give someone access to other 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:56.000 people to be at the same places, you know, they 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:59.200 abuse that relationship, right, we could at least use that 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:01.880 term to discover. And so if we felt like we 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:06.399 were used in some way, it's our immediate response to 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:08.919 any kind of abuse or trauma is to minimize and 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:11.840 invalidate our experience because we want to take blame for it, 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.040 because we were kind of part of it, even though 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:18.160 we weren't an active part. It's confusing. I understand why 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:22.080 you're feeling very like these two things can't coexist. He 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:24.960 can't be a bad guy and I can't be a 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:29.240 good guy. How did that happen? And I think the 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.920 untangling and the understanding of that manipulation and why they 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:36.000 do it and how they do it can at least 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:39.480 give us another perspective. It takes time. Like again, I 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:42.760 just encourage you. Something I have my patience to when 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:44.760 we're trying to make sense of an old thing that 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.000 happened and we feel like we can't even remember what 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.080 it's like to be us at that age, is to 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:51.119 and luckily, you probably have a lot of footage, a 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.120 lot of photos of yourself at that age, and if 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:55.760 you can ever, I don't know if you have this, 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:59.040 but I stumbled upon my own recently old emails or 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:04.120 old letters. Reading through that, I was like, oh my god, 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:05.760 Like I was in college and it was me and 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:07.520 one of my girlfriends, she was studying abroad. We sent 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:12.639 emails back and forth. Mortified, I don't even know that, Katie. 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:16.159 I'm like, I don't even remember I don't even know 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:17.800 what that was like. And I don't know if you 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.840 can access some of that, because sometimes getting into the 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:24.440 head of you at nineteen or twenty, it can give 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.080 you a little bit of compassion for yourself, a little 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:30.880 understanding for the fact that hey, I thought I knew everything, 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:34.399 but I didn't know anything, you know, and not like 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:37.119 in a judgmental way, just like you're really just like 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:38.119 a kid. Still. 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:41.680 I think it's very hard for us too, in the 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:43.720 particular situation we're in. 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:44.400 Because. 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:50.280 Because we were achieving success, you know, Like what we 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:54.120 were doing at that age was an accomplishment. We had 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:58.639 made it as actors into the top what ten percent 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:00.960 of actors in the whole world, two percent of actors 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:03.000 in the whole world. We were paid to be on 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:07.040 a TV show. So like, as far as everyone around 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:11.800 us and the whole we were successful. We were achieving something. 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:14.280 And I think that there's prob we want to have 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:16.320 pride in them, right, like we want to have pride 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:20.359 and how mature we were and how together we were 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:24.000 and how we accomplished, you know. And I remember you 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:26.840 would as a kid actor, you would know the other 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:29.240 kid actors who weren't going to make it because they 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:32.840 didn't have the abilities, not necessarily the talent, but just 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:37.879 the life skills. They couldn't manage their money, they couldn't 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:40.080 figure out their apartment situation, they didn't know how to 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:41.920 take care of themselves. And like, the three of us 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:46.440 were highly capable teenagers. And I think that that capability, 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:49.840 you know, it's hard to look back and not see 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:52.040 it all capable, you know, like to look back and 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:54.960 be like, oh, I was super capable in all these ways, 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:58.760 but I still had no clue to spot a bad person, 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:02.960 you know that I was still a sucker for kindness 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:05.800 or you know. And I think like Will and I, 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:08.600 you know, Will, we've talked about this. Like another part 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.239 of it that you know, is blurring these lines is 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:15.080 like I always dated older women. Yeah, from the age 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:17.879 of sixteen or seventeen on, like I dated a couple 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:23.240 people and then literally ever since I was seventeen, never 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:24.880 dated a woman in my age. And I think that 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.040 that was again part of these boundaries, and it like 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:29.360 went through degrees, Like you're talking about. 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:31.960 Two or three years older. It's not that big of 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:32.200 a deal. 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:34.240 I mean it was a bigger deal back then, sure, 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:37.440