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Speaker 1: The following episode will be discussing childhood sexual abuse, grooming

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Speaker 1: and the effects they can have. It also contains uncensored

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Speaker 1: adult language. These subject matters can be sensitive for many

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Speaker 1: of us, and if you find yourself at all worried

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Speaker 1: about listening to this episode, please skip right past this

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Speaker 1: one and we will return to our regular programming next week.

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Speaker 1: With this in mind, here's this week's episode of pod

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Speaker 1: Meets World.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Welcome to pod meets World.

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Speaker 3: This episode is going to be a little out of

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Speaker 3: format and with a slightly different tone, but we do

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Speaker 3: hope that you will stick with it as we think

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Speaker 3: this is going to be a very important discussion, not

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Speaker 3: only for us, but for you as well. When we

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Speaker 3: decided to embark on the journey that is pod meets

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Speaker 3: World a few years back, we set a few guidelines

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Speaker 3: for ourselves, and at the top of the list was

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Speaker 3: that we were going to be as honest and open

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Speaker 3: as possible, because regardless of how many people listened, we

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Speaker 3: knew that if we were going to look back on

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Speaker 3: our childhoods, it would mean a whole lot to us.

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Speaker 3: We weren't going to shy away from anything just because

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Speaker 3: it was uncomfortable or inconvenient, and so far all three

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Speaker 3: of us have agreed talking about our shared history on

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Speaker 3: this podcast, The good and the Bad has become the

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Speaker 3: body of work we are most proud of in our careers,

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Speaker 3: and so today we face one of those uncomfortable and

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Speaker 3: inconvenient moments. Every episode we mentioned the guest stars that

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Speaker 3: you're going to see, We say their name, and we

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Speaker 3: mentioned the other shows they've been on. And with season

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Speaker 3: five looming close, we know that we'll need to address

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Speaker 3: an actor and behind the scenes figure who appeared on

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Speaker 3: the show starting in nineteen ninety seven, and we knew

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Speaker 3: this deserved a more detailed discussion, especially even since we

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Speaker 3: as hosts are still unpacking everything involved, and we know

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Speaker 3: that discourse around this subject has culturally ramped up, with

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Speaker 3: Will and Writer even being contacted recently for a statement.

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Speaker 3: So we decided to talk about it here on our podcast,

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Speaker 3: where we can dig much deeper than one sentence.

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Speaker 2: This episode is.

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Speaker 3: Unrehearsed or really not pre produced at all outside of

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Speaker 3: this intro, and we are taping it without knowing when

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Speaker 3: it will air, and we have reached out to an

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Speaker 3: expert family therapist, Katie Morton. Katie has been on the

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Speaker 3: forefront of the mental health movement since twenty eleven, demystifying

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Speaker 3: mental health myths and replacing stigmas with understanding, amassing over

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Speaker 3: one point three million subscribers on YouTube and over one

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Speaker 3: hundred and twenty million views of help. She's released two books,

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Speaker 3: Are You Okay, A Guide to Caring for Mental health

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Speaker 3: and the book that brought her to us today, twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty one's Traumatized, Identify, Understand and Cope with PTSD and

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Speaker 3: Emotional Stress.

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Speaker 4: Hello Katie, Hi, thanks for having.

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Speaker 2: Me, Thank you for being here.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety seven, for the start of season, a

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Speaker 3: new stand in was brought on the show. He had

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Speaker 3: worked on sitcoms before Boymeet's World in similar capacities, also

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Speaker 3: moonlighting as an acting coach, and as you've learned from

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Speaker 3: this podcast, since it takes a village to produce television,

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Speaker 3: he was added to a roster that was always constantly changing,

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Speaker 3: and so this is when Brian Peck entered Our Lives.

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Speaker 3: He would eventually become a mainstay on set, not just

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Speaker 3: working on the show and appearing on it with many

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Speaker 3: small rules until it concluded in two thousand and one,

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Speaker 3: but integrating himself into Will and Writer's personal life, becoming

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Speaker 3: part of their most trusted inner circle, despite being more

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Speaker 3: than fifteen years older than both of them and crossing

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Speaker 3: many workplace boundaries. And then in August of two thousand

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Speaker 3: and three, he was arrested in Los Angeles, then forty

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Speaker 3: three years old, for lude acts with a child that

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Speaker 3: occurred in two thousand and one with an underage student

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Speaker 3: he was coaching. To say this came as a shock

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Speaker 3: to us at the time would have been an understatement.

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Speaker 3: We saw no signs of this behavior and were not

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Speaker 3: victimized ourselves, and were constantly being told by this person

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Speaker 3: who was our friend that he was the actual victim.

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Speaker 3: In the end, he was convicted and spent sixteen months

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Speaker 3: in prison. There had been reports of him working on

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Speaker 3: sets that involved kid actors after his release, with watchdog

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Speaker 3: groups and media outlets correctly staying vigilant on his actions,

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Speaker 3: but we couldn't confirm anything outside of what we've read online.

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Speaker 3: So here we are today to have an honest and

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Speaker 3: open discussion about a hot button topic in Hollywood and

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Speaker 3: hopes that this will not just become another clickbait headline,

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Speaker 3: but rather lead people to this episode a longer open

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Speaker 3: and raw dialogue about sexual predators, manipulation, and grooming. Katie,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to let you take it from here, and

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Speaker 3: we thank you so very much for joining us, as

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Speaker 3: we want to be very considerate of any victims involved.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, of course, thanks for having me. I think I

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Speaker 4: mean is it's a difficult topic to address because the

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Speaker 4: thing that I think I first want to talk about

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Speaker 4: is to help people understand what the term grooming means,

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Speaker 4: because I think it's wonderful and social media that we

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Speaker 4: talk about things. People use language and you know, we're

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Speaker 4: sharing information, but sometimes that comes with a lack of

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Speaker 4: actual understanding. And the thing about grooming that makes it difficult, painful,

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Speaker 4: and confusing is because it is a form of manipulation,

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Speaker 4: and a lot of people don't understand that. I think, oh,

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Speaker 4: if I was groomed, then that means that something happened

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Speaker 4: to me in that moment they were harming me. We

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Speaker 4: think of like abuse itself, right, and grooming in and

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Speaker 4: of itself is not like a criminal act. It's not

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Speaker 4: something I can diagnose. It's not something that is even

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Speaker 4: often noticed. And the reason for it is that when

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Speaker 4: someone's being groomed, the entire goal is to get something

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Speaker 4: from another person, meaning that if let's say I'm the

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Speaker 4: abuser and I'm grooming you, Daniel, I might make friends

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Speaker 4: with your parents, I might make friends with your friends.

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Speaker 4: I might try to get a job at the same place.

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Speaker 4: Let's say we both work at a restaurant. Right, I'll

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Speaker 4: try to kind of weasel my way into your life

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Speaker 4: so that other people in your life will vouch for me.

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Speaker 4: And I think that's what is really hard for people

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Speaker 4: to understand and what ends up kind of causing what

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Speaker 4: i'd call like cognitive dissonance, like this, these can't occur together.

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Speaker 4: It's like, but this was my friend or this was

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Speaker 4: a person in my life. I worked with them for years.

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Speaker 4: In your case, it was on the set, and you're like, this,

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Speaker 4: nothing happened to me, right, but they did these horrible things,

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Speaker 4: And then it's like it's really hard for us to

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Speaker 4: make sense of it. Hence why grooming is effective. And

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Speaker 4: I know that sounds kind of icky and that makes

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Speaker 4: us all want to like rip our skin off, like

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Speaker 4: h but that's kind of That's the reason it works

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Speaker 4: is because it's slow and steady manipulation to find a

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Speaker 4: way to get into our life to either harm us

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Speaker 4: or to harm someone close to us. That's why I said, like,

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Speaker 4: I could become friends with your parents or friends with

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Speaker 4: your parents, you know, your friends, because the whole goal

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Speaker 4: is to to have you put your walls down right

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Speaker 4: feel safe.

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Speaker 5: Can I ask a quick question, I'm sorry, no, cut

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Speaker 5: your goal for it? Does the abuser know they're doing this?

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Speaker 4: Yes and no. It depends on the person. I think

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Speaker 4: the awareness isn't there because they're the ultimate goal is

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Speaker 4: to get whatever it is they want. So let's say

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Speaker 4: it is sexual abuse of a minor. If they're attracted

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Speaker 4: to a certain kid or a certain person, then the

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Speaker 4: goal is to get that. Does that make sense? So

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Speaker 4: whether or not they're really aware of oh, what I'm

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Speaker 4: doing is like grooming behavior. It's almost like like when

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Speaker 4: you're a kid, you know, and you want your parents

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Speaker 4: to let you go to a party and they've said no,

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Speaker 4: and you're like, I'm going to ask dad. I already

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Speaker 4: asked mom. She said no, I'm gonna I'm going to

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Speaker 4: try another way. It's that same type of experience where

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Speaker 4: the goal is to get that end result and we

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Speaker 4: don't care how we get to it. That's a good question.

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Speaker 3: Well, when you mentioned the parent situation, like that you

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Speaker 3: might become friends with my parents, is the goal in

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Speaker 3: that situation that my parents would then trust you, So

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Speaker 3: now my parents will allow you to have access to me.

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Speaker 3: And if my parents trust you, it may help me

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Speaker 3: feel more trustworthy around you too, because it's like, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, when you look around and you go, hey,

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Speaker 3: if we all agree that this person's cool, there's much

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Speaker 3: less questioning that needs to go on about whether or

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Speaker 3: not this person is cool because we all agree.

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Speaker 4: And I think, especially in the case of being like

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Speaker 4: a child star, you have a often more responsibilities than

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Speaker 4: a normal child, and unfortunately that can also come with

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Speaker 4: less protectorates, like our parents might not be as involved.

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Speaker 4: Which I don't know how this person worked their way

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Speaker 4: into your life specifically, but my hypothesis would be that

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Speaker 4: they made friends with your friends and started hanging out

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Speaker 4: to make it more normalized little by little, because then

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Speaker 4: it doesn't feel because that person was way older, right,

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Speaker 4: which as adults now, if we saw like remove ourselves

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Speaker 4: from it, if we saw like a fifteen year old

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Speaker 4: hanging out with a thirty year old, we'd be like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I mean, I'm forty and I don't even think I

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Speaker 4: can really hang with like twenty year olds, right, I

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Speaker 4: think I can until we're together, and then I'm like,

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Speaker 4: oh my god, I guess I am forty, So I

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Speaker 4: think that what might have been an automatic, Oh this

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Speaker 4: is weird kind of Then it's slow, but sure, we

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Speaker 4: get to know other people. They bring them around, We

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Speaker 4: bring them around, and it's that slow and steady kind

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Speaker 4: of wiggling in to where all of a sudden it

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Speaker 4: feels normal.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 4: No parent was probably there to be like, hey, this

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Speaker 4: is an adult, you're still children.

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Speaker 7: That's all we did though, as kids child act with adults.

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Speaker 7: You hung out with adults all the time. We were adults.

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Speaker 7: Other than our ages. We were treated completely and totally

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Speaker 7: as adults. There was unless you were really a kid,

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Speaker 7: like a kid kid like Lily nick Say who was

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Speaker 7: five or six at the time, or even when Lindsay

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Speaker 7: came on and she was eleven, if you were fourteen, fifteen,

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Speaker 7: sixteen hanging out with people that were forty forty five fifty.

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Speaker 5: Was you did that experience?

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Speaker 8: I was yeah.

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Speaker 7: There was no you were treated there there was no

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Speaker 7: age gap. It just didn't exist on a set. You

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Speaker 7: were everyone was thrown together, and it didn't mad. There

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Speaker 7: might have been a hierarchy when it came to more

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Speaker 7: powerful positions of who you.

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Speaker 8: Were I was going to show.

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Speaker 6: But in a weird way, it actually inverted those hierarchies

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Speaker 6: because we were show. Yeah we have the power, right like,

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Speaker 6: and we were in we were in positions of authority

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Speaker 6: weirdly to the other people that we were working with,

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Speaker 6: Like I mean we by especially by like season five,

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Speaker 6: the show's you going to go on with or without

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Speaker 6: certain stand ins or directors or stage managers. It's not

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Speaker 6: going to go on without us, And.

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Speaker 5: We've gone like that.

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Speaker 7: If you said we don't want them on the set anymore,

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Speaker 7: that would have been it.

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Speaker 5: It would have been gone.

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Speaker 7: But the idea of seeing you know, on the street

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Speaker 7: in everyday life, if you see two friends one of

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Speaker 7: them's forty and one of them seventeen, it looks weird.

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Speaker 5: On a set, it looks completely and totally normal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it's on a set, it does.

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Speaker 3: But this person also then did go to events you

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Speaker 3: guys would have, you know, parties, you would have after work.

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Speaker 3: And again it's part of like I know, for me

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Speaker 3: as a teenager, when the adults treated me like an adult.

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Speaker 3: That made me feel so good because all I wanted,

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Speaker 3: is I've courted, was to be seen, was to be

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Speaker 3: an adult, and was to be mature enough to hang

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Speaker 3: out with other adults. So them coming to a party

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Speaker 3: or them hanging out with my friends didn't make me

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Speaker 3: think badly of them. It made me think very highly

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Speaker 3: of myself. Eli's an unfair thing for the kid in

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Speaker 3: a relationship to go, hey, it's.

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Speaker 2: Is it weird that you want to hang out with me?

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Speaker 2: It should be the adult.

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Speaker 3: Who knows, Yes, what on earth am I going to

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Speaker 3: do hanging out with a bunch of kids Like that's

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Speaker 3: a boundary I couldn't cross. I mean, I know on

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Speaker 3: Girl Meets World, the kids always wanted me to do

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Speaker 3: things with them, and sometimes I did. Sometimes we'd go

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Speaker 3: to lunch, but for the most part, I was very

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Speaker 3: much like, guys, you guys are a core group of

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Speaker 3: teen friends, and that's great you guys foster that relationship.

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Speaker 3: But just because we all work together doesn't mean I

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Speaker 3: should be at your hangouts like chat totally.

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Speaker 4: And I know that's why you're a little more vulnerable

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Speaker 4: in that particular situation when you feel like you're the adult,

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Speaker 4: or you have as much power. The power dynamic is

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Speaker 4: a little bit off, and there aren't I assume for

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Speaker 4: most of you, your parents weren't like onset every day.

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Speaker 8: Checking out by season five.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and so the people in your life who should

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Speaker 4: have been like this is weird because you again, like

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Speaker 4: to Daniel's point, like you're not supposed to as a kid,

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Speaker 4: be the one that's like this isn't right. You know,

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Speaker 4: we want to be cool. I remember when I was

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Speaker 4: a kid, like counting down the days until I was

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Speaker 4: sixteen or eighteen or twenty one, Like everything was like

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Speaker 4: I wanted to be responsible. I wanted people to take

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Speaker 4: me seriously, and that was taken advantage of, you know,

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Speaker 4: and that that's why adults, that's why there are protectants

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Speaker 4: in place for children on sets, especially the little ones,

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Speaker 4: because and obvious this is probably also why it happens

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Speaker 4: a lot in Hollywood is because children and teenagers in

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Speaker 4: particular are very vulnerable. Because what teen doesn't want to

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Speaker 4: be cool, doesn't want to hang out with the older kids.

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Speaker 4: I mean, even you could people might not like this,

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Speaker 4: but like when you're eighteen, when I was a kid

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Speaker 4: group in a really small town, so like you try

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Speaker 4: to get your older brother to buy you beer, and

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Speaker 4: like you want to be old and cool, and like,

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Speaker 4: I think that that can sometimes get confused, and that

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Speaker 4: can you know, there's no bone in my body that

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Speaker 4: says that it's appropriate for, like, you know, a thirty

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Speaker 4: year old to be hanging out with fifteen year olds.

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Speaker 7: That's one of the reasons I'm struggling so much of this,

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Speaker 7: and it's been bothering me for so long is I

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Speaker 7: wasn't fifteen.

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Speaker 5: I was like nineteen, and.

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Speaker 7: I wanted because I'd been an actor for so long,

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Speaker 7: because I've been living by myself. I want to look

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Speaker 7: back and think that I was worldly and there's no

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Speaker 7: way that I could have been taken advantage of at

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Speaker 7: that age, and there's no way that I could be

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Speaker 7: manipulated like this because I was an adult.

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Speaker 5: And that's one of the things that's really.

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Speaker 7: Sticking with me more than anything else, is that I

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Speaker 7: have this anger towards myself of where it's like, you

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Speaker 7: were supposed to know this then.

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Speaker 5: Were you, though I don't, I mean in my head

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Speaker 5: I was.

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Speaker 7: I was, you know, by the time I had heard

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Speaker 7: what had happened, I'd known this man for years and years,

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Speaker 7: had no idea that any of this was going on, obviously,

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Speaker 7: and the idea that now at twenty four or whatever,

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Speaker 7: I was twenty four to twenty five when when it

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Speaker 7: happened and found out about it that I didn't know,

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Speaker 7: couldn't spot it, didn't I mean, that was a failure,

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Speaker 7: my own failure in my mind, where it was like,

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Speaker 7: I I don't know, I don't even I don't even

297
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Speaker 7: know how to put half of what I'm feeling into words,

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Speaker 7: to be totally honest with you. And I've been thinking

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Speaker 7: about it for a long time now, and it's just

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Speaker 7: that's one of the things that's really sticking with me

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Speaker 7: is it was like I'd love to say, oh it

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Speaker 7: was because I was going through my anxiety, it was

303
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Speaker 7: because I was only twenty foot, But there's no in

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Speaker 7: my head, there's no excuses to where it's like, how

305
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Speaker 7: did you not see this?

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Speaker 5: How did you not?

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Speaker 7: I don't know?

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Speaker 4: It's I hear you and I think, unfortunately there's a

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Speaker 4: lot pack a couple things, and you let me know

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Speaker 4: if you're like Katie, your way off base, you can

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Speaker 4: tell me like that's stupid. I don't agree, but I

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Speaker 4: think when we when we look back as adults, So

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Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know how old each and every

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Speaker 4: one of you are, but I'm forty. Even at twenty five,

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Speaker 4: I would say I was like adult light, right, like

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Speaker 4: they you know, right. But when we look back on

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Speaker 4: old experiences with our adult glasses, it's hard for us

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Speaker 4: to know or remember what it was like to actually

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Speaker 4: be a kid that at that age nineteen I would

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Speaker 4: still say as a kid, I mean I was a kid,

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Speaker 4: like I was not making good decisions. So we forget

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Speaker 4: what it's like. And then you're judging younger you with

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Speaker 4: adult use knowledge, right, and younger you didn't even know.

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Speaker 4: And I think that's the tricky thing when it comes

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Speaker 4: to any abusive situation. And I know abuse can feel

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Speaker 4: like a big word, but abuse, like in this case,

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Speaker 4: if you were manipulated to give someone access to other

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Speaker 4: people to be at the same places, you know, they

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Speaker 4: abuse that relationship, right, we could at least use that

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Speaker 4: term to discover. And so if we felt like we

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Speaker 4: were used in some way, it's our immediate response to

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Speaker 4: any kind of abuse or trauma is to minimize and

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Speaker 4: invalidate our experience because we want to take blame for it,

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Speaker 4: because we were kind of part of it, even though

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Speaker 4: we weren't an active part. It's confusing. I understand why

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Speaker 4: you're feeling very like these two things can't coexist. He

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Speaker 4: can't be a bad guy and I can't be a

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Speaker 4: good guy. How did that happen? And I think the

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Speaker 4: untangling and the understanding of that manipulation and why they

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Speaker 4: do it and how they do it can at least

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Speaker 4: give us another perspective. It takes time. Like again, I

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Speaker 4: just encourage you. Something I have my patience to when

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Speaker 4: we're trying to make sense of an old thing that

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Speaker 4: happened and we feel like we can't even remember what

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Speaker 4: it's like to be us at that age, is to

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Speaker 4: and luckily, you probably have a lot of footage, a

347
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Speaker 4: lot of photos of yourself at that age, and if

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Speaker 4: you can ever, I don't know if you have this,

349
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Speaker 4: but I stumbled upon my own recently old emails or

350
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Speaker 4: old letters. Reading through that, I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 4: Like I was in college and it was me and

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Speaker 4: one of my girlfriends, she was studying abroad. We sent

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Speaker 4: emails back and forth. Mortified, I don't even know that, Katie.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, I don't even remember I don't even know

355
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Speaker 4: what that was like. And I don't know if you

356
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Speaker 4: can access some of that, because sometimes getting into the

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Speaker 4: head of you at nineteen or twenty, it can give

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Speaker 4: you a little bit of compassion for yourself, a little

359
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Speaker 4: understanding for the fact that hey, I thought I knew everything,

360
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Speaker 4: but I didn't know anything, you know, and not like

361
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Speaker 4: in a judgmental way, just like you're really just like

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Speaker 4: a kid. Still.

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Speaker 6: I think it's very hard for us too, in the

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Speaker 6: particular situation we're in.

365
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Speaker 8: Because.

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Speaker 6: Because we were achieving success, you know, Like what we

367
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Speaker 6: were doing at that age was an accomplishment. We had

368
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Speaker 6: made it as actors into the top what ten percent

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Speaker 6: of actors in the whole world, two percent of actors

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Speaker 6: in the whole world. We were paid to be on

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Speaker 6: a TV show. So like, as far as everyone around

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Speaker 6: us and the whole we were successful. We were achieving something.

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Speaker 6: And I think that there's prob we want to have

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Speaker 6: pride in them, right, like we want to have pride

375
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Speaker 6: and how mature we were and how together we were

376
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Speaker 6: and how we accomplished, you know. And I remember you

377
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 6: would as a kid actor, you would know the other

378
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Speaker 6: kid actors who weren't going to make it because they

379
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Speaker 6: didn't have the abilities, not necessarily the talent, but just

380
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,879
Speaker 6: the life skills. They couldn't manage their money, they couldn't

381
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,080
Speaker 6: figure out their apartment situation, they didn't know how to

382
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Speaker 6: take care of themselves. And like, the three of us

383
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,440
Speaker 6: were highly capable teenagers. And I think that that capability,

384
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Speaker 6: you know, it's hard to look back and not see

385
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,040
Speaker 6: it all capable, you know, like to look back and

386
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,960
Speaker 6: be like, oh, I was super capable in all these ways,

387
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,760
Speaker 6: but I still had no clue to spot a bad person,

388
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Speaker 6: you know that I was still a sucker for kindness

389
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 6: or you know. And I think like Will and I,

390
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,600
Speaker 6: you know, Will, we've talked about this. Like another part

391
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,239
Speaker 6: of it that you know, is blurring these lines is

392
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Speaker 6: like I always dated older women. Yeah, from the age

393
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Speaker 6: of sixteen or seventeen on, like I dated a couple

394
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:23,240
Speaker 6: people and then literally ever since I was seventeen, never

395
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:24,880
Speaker 6: dated a woman in my age. And I think that

396
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,040
Speaker 6: that was again part of these boundaries, and it like

397
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,360
Speaker 6: went through degrees, Like you're talking about.

398
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Speaker 8: Two or three years older. It's not that big of

399
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:32,200
Speaker 8: a deal.

400
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,240
Speaker 6: I mean it was a bigger deal back then, sure,

401
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,440
Speaker 6: But I was also dating women way older than like yeah,

402
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,639
Speaker 6: like and you and I have talked about, like that's

403
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,399
Speaker 6: that was really hard for me to recognize, Like that's it.

404
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,960
Speaker 6: That's also kind of messed up. Like I looked at

405
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,679
Speaker 6: it as an accomplishment to be eighteen and having an

406
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,480
Speaker 6: affair with a thirty two year old woman Like that

407
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 6: was something I was like proud of until relatively recently

408
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,199
Speaker 6: where I was like, what is up with that person?

409
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:56,919
Speaker 8: Like that is so weird.

410
00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,199
Speaker 6: That is not cool, you know, and like and to

411
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 6: the power dynamics were a little different because male female

412
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,480
Speaker 6: again actor, you know, but like that's messed up, right,

413
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,640
Speaker 6: And that's very hard for me to recognize because again,

414
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:10,280
Speaker 6: I want to be.

415
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 8: Proud of that.

416
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,360
Speaker 6: I wanted to be proud of that, like I'm so mature,

417
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,719
Speaker 6: I'm so cool that I can date older women. And

418
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,439
Speaker 6: like in retrospect, like, no, man, that's that's again that

419
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:20,479
Speaker 6: like boundary crossing.

420
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 8: That was just are for the course.

421
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 4: Well it became normalized, right, So then that's what he

422
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,119
Speaker 4: went out in the world looking for. And not to

423
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 4: make assumptions about either of your lives, but for any

424
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,639
Speaker 4: of my patients who end up dating, marrying, being involved

425
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 4: with people that are a lot older. A lot of

426
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 4: times that comes out of a lack of support from parents.

427
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 4: And not to say parents are bad. I think people

428
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,199
Speaker 4: want to throw parents under the bus a lot. But

429
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 4: it's not about that. It's more about the emotional support

430
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 4: that we get from parents. And I mean that in

431
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 4: the most honest way. That like if your mother's had

432
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 4: been there and been around the set, and this person

433
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 4: was there and like he's a little old, like take

434
00:21:57,840 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 4: you aside, like this person's a little old, you know.

435
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 4: Just having that kind of what i'd call wise counsel

436
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 4: and having that support is really important when we're children,

437
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 4: even though as teens we want to push our parents away.

438
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 4: I know better, you're so stupid. You don't know what

439
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 4: it's like to be me. And obviously in a position

440
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 4: of power, we're earning money things like that, but we

441
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 4: can go out looking for other people to essentially fill

442
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 4: that void of that support that we needed and didn't get,

443
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 4: even though I know it's hard to maybe realize because

444
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 4: you didn't know it at the time. Right, Often when

445
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 4: we're kids, we don't know what we need until.

446
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 7: I go I was in a different scenario. It's very

447
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 7: strange because I ended up marrying an older woman. I

448
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 7: usually dated older women. My parents are still my two

449
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 7: biggest supporters that I've ever had. But I still left

450
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 7: at sixteen to go and do Boyman's World. Yeah, so,

451
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,159
Speaker 7: I mean I was still It killed me that I

452
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 7: had to leave. It killed them that I had to leave,

453
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 7: but they knew for me to do what I loved

454
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 7: and what I wanted to do, that I had to go.

455
00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,400
Speaker 7: And my mom has told me to this day that

456
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 7: there were when she first came on the set. It

457
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 7: might have even been when we were doing the first photoshoot,

458
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 7: she said, I did not like the way.

459
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 5: A lot of the older women were looking at you.

460
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 5: She said.

461
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 7: She told me that right from the start, I do

462
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 7: not like the way that they're looking at you. And

463
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 7: she would tell me that often, you know where she

464
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 7: would come to the set and she would say, I

465
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 7: don't like She would tell me, I don't like the

466
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:24,120
Speaker 7: way the men are looking at Danielle.

467
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 5: I don't like the way the women are looking at you.

468
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 5: She would tell me that all the time. So and

469
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 5: I still ended up with an older woman.

470
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 7: So I think one of those reasons is, you know,

471
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 7: when you're sixteen and you're living I had a guardian

472
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 7: until I was eighteen, but I was essentially living by myself.

473
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 5: You had to grow up in certain ways.

474
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 7: And I think that's why looking back at this is

475
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 7: so and I think it's what Riders talking about. There's

476
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 7: this strange twisting of in some ways you are way

477
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 7: more mature than anybody else your age, and in other ways,

478
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 7: and so because of that, you ignore the fact that

479
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 7: at the end of the day, you're still nineteen. Yeah,

480
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,399
Speaker 7: you know that you can only be so worldly. You

481
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 7: can only be you know. I look back and I go,

482
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 7: I can't. I can't have been this naive. I mean,

483
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:12,639
Speaker 7: this man came onto our set, befriended us instantly, super

484
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 7: nice guy, to the point where I didn't have a

485
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 7: lot of friends. I still don't have a lot of friends.

486
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 7: I keep my circle of friends very, very small.

487
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 4: And it's probably protective, right, Yeah, who wants something from me?

488
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 4: Who's who's authentically my friends?

489
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 7: And the anxiety And I never blame my mental illness

490
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 7: for anything, and I'm not about to start now. My

491
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 7: decisions are all my own. But because of the anxiety,

492
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 7: it also keeps your world very small. So I was

493
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 7: I was making sure I knew who was in my world.

494
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 7: I didn't go to parties. I didn't didn't really do

495
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 7: that stuff. But I was working a lot after Boy

496
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,959
Speaker 7: Meets World, and this guy had so ingratiated himself into

497
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 7: my life. I took him to three shows after Boy

498
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 7: Meets World.

499
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, so, I.

500
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 7: Mean this was the type of thing where the person

501
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 7: he presented was this great, funny guy who was really

502
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 7: good at his job and you wanted to hang out with. Again,

503
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 7: I didn't hang out with him a lot socially, but

504
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,959
Speaker 7: we were on four different shows together on sets all

505
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 7: the time.

506
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 8: I did, I'm going out all the time.

507
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 5: You hung out socially, right, Yes, so that's the thing is,

508
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 5: but that's because I didn't.

509
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 7: I mean, I just didn't have much of a social

510
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 7: life because I was in my house. But I saw

511
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 7: him every day, hung out with him every day, talk

512
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 7: to him every day. And so to look back at

513
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 7: that and and then him telling us what happened, I'll

514
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 7: just say, for me telling me what happened, and then

515
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 7: instantly spinning it to where it wasn't his fault, it

516
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 7: was clearly the fault of his victim. My initial instinct

517
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 7: because of the years I've been with him, is like, well, yeah,

518
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 7: of course it can't be.

519
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 5: You can't be.

520
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 2: You right, you're innocent.

521
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 5: I mean, it can't It can't possibly be that.

522
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 7: So you sidle up to the guy who now you

523
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 7: look back as adult, and.

524
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:02,880
Speaker 5: You go, that's that's he's horrible. And my instinct initially was, well,

525
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 5: my friend can't be. This can't be. So it's got

526
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 5: to be the other person's fault has to be.

527
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,199
Speaker 7: The story of course makes complete sense the way that

528
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 7: he's saying it, and you're damn right, it's that kid's fault.

529
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 5: How dare he? And I look back at that now as.

530
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 7: An adult, and it it makes me want to cry

531
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 7: that I ever was that naive And it's I don't know.

532
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 5: Again, I have all these We've tried, writer and I have.

533
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 7: Tried talking about this. Danielle and Ryder and I have

534
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 7: tried talking about this. We've all tried to discuss this,

535
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 7: and I still can't get the words out to describe

536
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 7: all of the things that I'm feeling inside of myself.

537
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 7: And it's it's again, I don't know.

538
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 3: Can I add a layer to this too that I

539
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 3: think is really important to talk about because I think it.

540
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 3: I think it's important. Like, we had a lot of

541
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 3: stand ins leading up to season five.

542
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: And sometimes it just happened.

543
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 3: Recently, we were like, Hey, that guy who's in this

544
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 3: episode is one of our stand ins, and we couldn't

545
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 3: remember his name. And that's not because we're terrible people,

546
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 3: and it's not because we have awful memories. Sometimes it's

547
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 3: just because even though we worked with those people every day,

548
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 3: there were boundaries in place that adult did have boundaries

549
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 3: with us, didn't try to separate us from our friends

550
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 3: or have lunch with us every day off stage.

551
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 2: This particular person did.

552
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 3: All the years of having stand ins, no one ever

553
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 3: do I remember regularly going to lunch with the cast members,

554
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 3: but this person did. And part of that's because when

555
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,239
Speaker 3: they arrived on set, they were extremely charming, They were

556
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,479
Speaker 3: very personable, They had a lot of jokes. They also,

557
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 3: because of their many years of experience working in the

558
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 3: entertainment industry, knew other very successful famous kids and young

559
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 3: men and regularly talked about them. And regardless of how

560
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 3: much we had, you know, for how many years we

561
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 3: had been in the industry, or the thought that actors

562
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 3: were still just people famous actors that were succeeding at

563
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 3: the very thing we were doing, and sometimes in movies,

564
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 3: which for a lot of us was like the real goal,

565
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 3: Like we're on a sitcom now, but we all want

566
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 3: to be movie stars. And this person was friends with

567
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 3: those movie stars and they mentioned them and that's it

568
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 3: felt It felt cool. It felt like, Wow, this guy

569
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 3: knows those people. Those are his friends, and he always

570
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 3: had funny stories, and he always had great stories, and

571
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 3: you'd want to know more, and next thing you know.

572
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 2: You'd be at lunch with this person.

573
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 3: Also, it was well and so that's one aspect that

574
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 3: I just want to point out that this person very

575
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 3: quickly was like we're going to be friends, and did

576
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 3: we were like this guy's great Two this person was

577
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 3: this person was gay, and we knew that he was gay,

578
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 3: and homophobia was rampant, especially in the nineties, and when

579
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 3: we when he's gay, all of us that side of

580
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 3: us that's like, that doesn't mean anything to us, don't care,

581
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 3: doesn't mean anything to us. But the other adults on

582
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 3: set who maybe could have or should have said, why

583
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 3: are you guys going to lunch with this guy? Why

584
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 3: is this guy going to writer's house?

585
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 2: For a party.

586
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 3: There was probably a part of them that didn't say

587
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 3: it because they were afraid it was going to be

588
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 3: taken as homophobia instead of this is a boundary gay

589
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 3: or not. This is a boundary about adults and kids.

590
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 3: And so I also think that's important in the story

591
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 3: of writer and Will about why he befriended the two.

592
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 2: Of you so closely.

593
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 3: And I did have lunch with him a couple of times,

594
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 3: but only because someone else would invite me. Someon would say, Hey,

595
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 3: I'm going to lunch with him, do you want to come,

596
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 3: And I'd go, yeah, sure, I'll go to lunch. But

597
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 3: he didn't really make an effort to get to know me.

598
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 3: He didn't ingratiate himselves as much into my life. I

599
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 3: never heard from him again after the show ended. Then

600
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 3: I didn't, you know, he didn't come to my parents'

601
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 3: house or he didn't do that with me.

602
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 4: Which is kind of important to note again because the

603
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 4: manipulation piece, like what grooming is, there's an end goal,

604
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 4: and I think at the very least see the difference

605
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 4: between those two things, because when again going back to

606
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 4: like being a kid and trying to manipulate a parent

607
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 4: to give us something we want. We can be really

608
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 4: really friendly and we have all our jokes planned and

609
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 4: we're so people when they want to get something can

610
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 4: be incredibly charismatic, and they also move quick before we

611
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 4: even have a chance to ask questions. It's almost like,

612
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 4: in their fervor to get that thing, we don't even

613
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 4: know what to think. And then they're already part of

614
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 4: our group and then we're.

615
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 8: Like, oh okay.

616
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 4: It's almost like we don't have a chance to sit

617
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 4: around with our friends that were friends before they were

618
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 4: part of this and be like, hey, what do you

619
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 4: think about so and so, or what's you know, or

620
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 4: have a mom come to visit the set and be like, hey,

621
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 4: well this is weird. Right, there was no chance it

622
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 4: was already happening. It had already happened. And I think

623
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 4: that's part of why they move so quick, why they

624
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 4: are so charismatic, why the way that they interact is

625
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 4: feels so nice natural.

626
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 7: You know. That's one of the things that Ryder and

627
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 7: I have also talked about before, what Danielle as well,

628
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 7: but really Wright and I is the fact that if

629
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 7: he was telling us all these stories with all these

630
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 7: famous names, that means chances are he was telling other

631
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 7: people's stories with our names, yes, exactly.

632
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 4: And probably to get access in another way.

633
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 5: In addition, that, to me is another thing that I

634
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 5: think back on. It just I don't know.

635
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 7: He must have been because that was one of the

636
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 7: things he was famous for, is his storytelling and the

637
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 7: people he knew and and how he knew them.

638
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 5: And you know who you should meet and you know, oh, man,

639
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 5: you know who'll be great as this director? You should

640
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 5: meet this person.

641
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 8: This remember used to call him the forest Pump of Hollywood.

642
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, because he knew everybody.

643
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 6: He knew everybody, had been behind the scene of so

644
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 6: many famous movies and conversations and like, yeah.

645
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 5: You knew everybody.

646
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 7: And what I'm starting to realize is he wasn't just

647
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 7: telling us stories.

648
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 5: He was using that. Yeah.

649
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 7: So yeah, this idea that I was somehow collected without

650
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 7: knowing it is Nope.

651
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's probably I'm telling you guys this I think.

652
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 6: But you know, I saw this person maybe seven years ago.

653
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 6: I went to a party and he was there, and

654
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 6: it was such It was one of the most intense

655
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 6: experiences in my life because I saw him.

656
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 8: I hadn't seen him for years, and he.

657
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 6: Immediately started talking to me as you know, old friends

658
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 6: or whatever, like hey, oh my god, and I had

659
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 6: this it felt like an out of body experience where

660
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 6: I'm having a conversation with him and I was finally

661
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 6: able to hear the name dropping, like how he was

662
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 6: able to in thirty seconds a couple of minutes of

663
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 6: conversation with me, where he was talking the whole time,

664
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 6: and I was just like, oh hi, where he was like,

665
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 6: I was just oh right or strong, so good to

666
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 6: see you. You know. I was just talking to my

667
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 6: buddy blah blah blah the other day, and we were

668
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 6: across the room from so and so the other day,

669
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 6: and I saw and like all these names, and suddenly

670
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 6: I could see this constellation, this web that this person

671
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 6: was laying where what he was letting me know, like

672
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 6: the story that he was telling was nonsense, but what

673
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 6: he was letting me know was that he was with

674
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 6: famous people who rationals who.

675
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 8: Validate him and and and and.

676
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 6: Put him in a category of Hollywood royalty or like

677
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 6: around all and like he did that constantly when we

678
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 6: were on the setup pointments world, and I never saw

679
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 6: it because it was so effortless and so and here

680
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 6: I was like at this party and like I had

681
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 6: to leave. I was so freaked the fuck out I

682
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 6: had to, like, you know, my wife was there, and

683
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 6: I was like, we have to leave, Like I could not.

684
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 6: I was like and because I could see this finally

685
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 6: for what was happening, and it was awful. It was

686
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 6: like a truly like and I'm sure that was happening

687
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 6: all the time when we were back in the day,

688
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 6: but to me, it was like, can I be part

689
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 6: of this group? Can I be part of this recognized

690
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 6: famous person club that he was a part of and

691
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 6: that he was a member of, and that I wanted

692
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 6: to be a part of too, you know, like and yeah,

693
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 6: it felt, Yeah, it's awful.

694
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 8: The other thing I would say is like, I, you.

695
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 6: Know, going back to Katie, what you were saying about

696
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 6: wise counsel, you know, like I remember my parents actually

697
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 6: saying something to me, not about this person. There were

698
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 6: multiple people at the time, men, older men, who I

699
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 6: would hang out with as if they were peers. That

700
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 6: was something that happened often, and I remember my parents

701
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 6: like being kind of upset about one of them, being like,

702
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 6: why are you hanging out with this guy? Like he's

703
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 6: in his forties, what's your deal or late thirties early forties,

704
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 6: like what? And I remember saying to my dad, who

705
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 6: brung it up to him. I was like, well, that

706
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 6: person's kind of like a permanent kid, and that was

707
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 6: like something, there was something recognized within these these I

708
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 6: can think of like three men in my life that

709
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 6: I was friends with who were like they were sort

710
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 6: of like childlike and into movies and games. They were stunted,

711
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 6: and they were aware of that and would talk about

712
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 6: themselves as if like, Eh, I'm kind of a permanent

713
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 6: teenager and we as like teenagers who wanted to be

714
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 6: older would be like, well, that makes them a cool person,

715
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 6: Like that makes them fun for us to hang out

716
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 6: with because they're like they're like us, except they can

717
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 6: buy alcohol and you know, you know what I mean.

718
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 6: It was like, Wow, they're like always living like we live. Now.

719
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 6: That's how I want to be when I'm in my

720
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 6: thirties and forties. Now, Jesus, no, like I want to

721
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 6: be around other adults talking about grown up things like

722
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 6: the idea of hanging out with anybody under the age

723
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 6: of twenty five makes me sick to my stomach, but

724
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 6: not then, like then, I thought it was like, oh,

725
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 6: we're meeting each other halfway, like they're permanent children and

726
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 6: I'm more of an adult and the other yeah, I'm

727
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 6: an adult out of it, and so it was like

728
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 6: we're understanding each other in a way, and like that

729
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 6: is truly disturbing to recognize.

730
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:03,919
Speaker 7: Now.

731
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 6: The other thing, I do think that, like Danielle, your

732
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 6: point about the homophobia is so spot on, and I

733
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 6: felt that that was explicitly explained to me, and this

734
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 6: is really really messed up. It was explained to me

735
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 6: by this person, and I remember having conversations with other

736
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 6: people that that it was like put into the context

737
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 6: of straightness in the sense that it was like, well,

738
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 6: a lot of guys are really into younger girls, like

739
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 6: that's you know. And I had that experience on a

740
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 6: fairly regular basis with people from our show men. Straight

741
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 6: Men from our show would talk about you talk about

742
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,919
Speaker 6: guest stars, hot girls, hot women that were under eight,

743
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 6: but they would talk about them with me as a peer, like, ka,

744
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 6: what do you think of that? Let's go check out that.

745
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 6: And that is all so disturbing in its own right.

746
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 6: When this situation happened, that was sort of used against

747
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 6: me in that it was like, well, you know how

748
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 6: it is, like I'm gay and I'm attracted to younger

749
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 6: people the same way that straight guys are attracted to

750
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,240
Speaker 6: younger people. So you don't judge me for being attracted

751
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 6: to or wanting to have sex with this young dude,

752
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 6: because that's you know, that would be homophobic because straight

753
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 6: guys do it too.

754
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 8: But it's like, no, it was awful for the sou

755
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 8: but it was turned against me.

756
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 6: It was like used against me to be like, well,

757
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 6: if you're gonna you know, and it's true, Like I

758
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 6: remember feeling like I shouldn't judge straight men for wanting

759
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 6: to be with younger women. But in retrospect, yes, like

760
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 6: I would never talk about a teenage girl now, I

761
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 6: would never do that. Back in the nineties that was

762
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 6: somewhat acceptable or like I still think in some cultures,

763
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 6: in some circles, it's still acceptable for guys to talk

764
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 6: about like teenage girls as if that's like and I'm.

765
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,879
Speaker 8: Like, I just like in retro like, oh my god,

766
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 8: that makes me sick to my stomach, Like.

767
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 7: Why would they ever think that's That's the thing that's

768
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 7: so amazing though, is that when you're a kid, or

769
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 7: when you're younger.

770
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 5: I won't even use the word kid. When you're younger.

771
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 7: That's where your brain goes is because mine did the

772
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 7: same thing. It goes to You're right, that is homophobic.

773
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 7: I shouldn't be thinking like that way because I don't

774
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 7: think that way about the straight guys, when in actuality,

775
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 7: you should be thinking that way about the straight guys.

776
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 7: That's what should change, is your idea about No, it's

777
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 7: all disgusting, right, yeah, but you don't do that. You go,

778
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 7: oh my god, you're right. You're my gay friend, and

779
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 7: I just judged you, and now you're telling me I'm

780
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 7: judging you because you're gay.

781
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 5: Oh my god, I'm horrible.

782
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 2: I feel bad.

783
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 5: Yeah, but it was it was. Yeah, the whole situation was.

784
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 7: Again you want to look it'd be one thing to

785
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 7: look back and say, hey, we're realizing this was a

786
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 7: pattern now and it's terrible, and I'm glad we realized it.

787
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 7: And again, I haven't seen writer saw him seven years ago,

788
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 7: ran into him at a party. I haven't seen this

789
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 7: guy in almost twenty years. And that would be fine

790
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 7: if we could use that for our growth. Great, but

791
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 7: there there's an actual victim here. And and the he

792
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 7: turned us against the victim to where now we're on

793
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 7: his team, and.

794
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 5: How is that?

795
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 7: And that's the thing where to me, I look back

796
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 7: at that as my ever loving shame for this entime.

797
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,439
Speaker 7: I mean, getting taken in by somebody who's a good

798
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,919
Speaker 7: actor and a manipulator. You know, Hey, I could chalk

799
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 7: that up to being young, and that's the way it is.

800
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 7: You know, it's awful, and I'm going to use that

801
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 7: as my growth, you know, for my growth as a

802
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 7: human being. Great, But when there's an actual victim involved,

803
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 7: and now I'm on the abuser's side, that's the thing

804
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 7: I can't I can't get over and.

805
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 5: Haven't been able to get it.

806
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 8: Clear.

807
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 6: Though he didn't deny that nothing, he didn't say that

808
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 6: nothing had happened. So by the time we heard about

809
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 6: this case and knew anything about it, it was always

810
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 6: in the context of I did this thing, I am guilty.

811
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 6: I am going to take whatever punishment the government you know,

812
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 6: decide determines. I am but but but I am.

813
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 8: A victim of jailbait, right like I am.

814
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 6: I I saw that, you know, there was this hot

815
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 6: guy and I just did this thing and did it

816
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,959
Speaker 6: all underage, Yeah, exactly, And we bought that storyline. We

817
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 6: bought into that storyline as opposed to saying, whoa grown

818
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,399
Speaker 6: man who's forty something years old, like what the hell

819
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 6: were you doing to begin?

820
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 5: And why are you even in that position?

821
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 8: Yeah? Why are you there?

822
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 5: And and for me, he called.

823
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 7: Me to his house, which I been to maybe twice,

824
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:49,720
Speaker 7: so that alone was weird.

825
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 5: And he sat me down.

826
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 7: And because I I guess you said this happened in

827
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 7: two thousand and one, I didn't hear about this until

828
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 7: it was it was way after two thousand and one

829
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 7: where he sat me down.

830
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 2: And he was arrested in two thousand and three.

831
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 7: Okay, so that's so I think that's when I found

832
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 7: out about It was two thousand and three or two

833
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 7: thousand and four, maybe even later.

834
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 5: And he called me to his house.

835
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 7: So he said to me, Hey, this, this is what's happening.

836
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 7: But this is what happened. He's crying the whole here's

837
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 7: the real story, and here's.

838
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 5: The real story.

839
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 7: And I'm probably I think we'd just done a film

840
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 7: together which he got me this role. Because I wasn't

841
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 7: auditioning at the time. It wasn't a great time in

842
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 7: my life.

843
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 3: It's just very It's very important for you to know.

844
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 3: I know it because it isn't about your mind. It

845
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 3: isn't about the mental illness. It's about the fact that

846
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 3: he got you a part you were not auditioning because

847
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 3: of your anxiety and he got you apart a straight

848
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 3: offer for a movie. Yeah, and you felt indebted to him,

849
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 3: whether or not it was I mean that was you

850
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 3: felt that as part of the manipulation, and Katie can

851
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,240
Speaker 3: speak to that. I'm not the expert here, but that's

852
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 3: part of his manipulation.

853
00:41:59,280 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 5: Maybe.

854
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 7: But I'm again the idea of wrapping up my mental

855
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 7: illness into any of it, like, because to me it

856
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 7: seems like I'm pointing to my mental illness like I'm

857
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 7: blaming it, and it's no excuse, frankly, I'm just.

858
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 3: Saying, as part of your relationship, he did you such

859
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 3: a favor as a solid by getting you a role

860
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 3: that you didn't have to audition for, and so as

861
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 3: part of your relationship with him, you carried this piece

862
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 3: of this very good friend of mine has stuck his

863
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 3: neck out for me and to anyone, you feel indebted

864
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 3: in that situation. So you had just come off of

865
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 3: that movie. He brings you to his house, and then

866
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:38,280
Speaker 3: what does he tell you the story?

867
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 7: Is he tell well, I mean, I don't want to

868
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 7: tell the whole it's pretty awful, so I don't want

869
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 7: to tell the whole story.

870
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 5: But it wasn't him at all.

871
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 7: Yes, he committed this act, but he committed this act

872
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 7: after being manipulated himself, after being taken advantage of.

873
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 5: I mean, you name it. By the end, he was

874
00:42:58,840 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 5: the Saint Jero bit.

875
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 8: It was just the idea of like this this young.

876
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 7: Hot person who'd been trying forever to get with this

877
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 7: person wore him down after trying and trying and trying,

878
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 7: and this person gave in one time.

879
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 3: That's a question, and we can edit this out. But

880
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 3: did he lie about the age of him too? Did

881
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 3: he Did he tell you how old the kid was?

882
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 7: Or no?

883
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 5: I don't remember.

884
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 6: Well, what I know is that, like since I've looked

885
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 6: up the case, like I didn't realize he only admitted

886
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 6: to one thing, but he was charged originally with like

887
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 6: a bunch of things.

888
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 8: Yes, but I never heard about.

889
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 6: Those other things because back then you couldn't google to

890
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 6: like find out what people were being charged with.

891
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 8: So like in retrospect, he was making a plea.

892
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 6: Deal and admitting one thing, which is all he admitted

893
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 6: to us, but it looks like he was actually being

894
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 6: charged with a series of crimes.

895
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 8: And that's really disturbing.

896
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 4: And you know, it's almost like the Bill Cosby effect,

897
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 4: where like one person comes out and then you're like,

898
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 4: holy shit, you know, because if he's that good of

899
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 4: a manipulator, which clearly he is, and probably so much

900
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 4: so that he even believes his own lives, you know

901
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 4: what I mean, in order to come across so calm, cool, collected,

902
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 4: this is what happened. To get emotional, but.

903
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 7: It was I mean, he then asked us to support

904
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 7: him and go to court with him, which a lot

905
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 7: of us did, and we're sitting in that courtroom on

906
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,240
Speaker 7: the wrong side of everything, of course, having no idea.

907
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 7: This filled with child actors, to the point where the

908
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,240
Speaker 7: victim's mother turned and said, look at all the famous

909
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 7: people you brought with you, and it doesn't change what

910
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 7: you did to my kid. And I just sat there

911
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 7: wanting to die, where it was like, what the hell am.

912
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 5: I doing here? Yeah, And it was horrifying all the

913
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 5: way around.

914
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 3: And question again, question, were there any women there. Did

915
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 3: he bring any famous women with him?

916
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 6: I can't remember friends that were women.

917
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 8: There was a lot of us.

918
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 7: I mean, there was a lot of us there that

919
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 7: were that were very recognizable. Again to the point where

920
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 7: the victim's mom pointed it out, and you know, he

921
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 7: he had us head writer and I write letters of

922
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 7: support to the judge. And these are things we did

923
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 7: and and again we did them because we were then

924
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 7: lied to.

925
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 5: We weren't told the whole story. But it doesn't change

926
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 5: the fact that we did it.

927
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 8: And I think part of it.

928
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 5: Just not to cut you off, no please at this point.

929
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 4: No, No, You're fine. It's a lot. There's a lot

930
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 4: to unpack because you knew this one story and now

931
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 4: there's all this evidence of another story and it's with

932
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 4: for lack of a better terments of mind. Fuck, you're

933
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 4: like what. But I think the big piece that we

934
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 4: have to remember, and I know this might be a

935
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 4: hard pill to swallow, is that you were victimized in

936
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 4: your own way. I'm not comparing We're not comparing pain

937
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 4: for pain. I'm not saying no, if you take the

938
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 4: slice of pie, there's less pain for others. You know,

939
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 4: a lot of people feel like that, like, well, if

940
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 4: I say I'm a victim, then that what does that

941
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 4: mean for that child that he harmed too? That's we're

942
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 4: not comparing, but you were victimized in your own way.

943
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 4: Think of the pain that you're enduring now trying to

944
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 4: like figure out it makes sense of like you said,

945
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 4: the shame and the guilt and like, what the hell

946
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 4: am I doing here? This is horrifying. I think a

947
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 4: big piece of when you said, like, I take this

948
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 4: to grow on my life, Like, I think a big

949
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 4: piece of the healing is going to be acknowledging the

950
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 4: fact that someone took advantage of you in a situation

951
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,399
Speaker 4: when you didn't think you were vulnerable and you were

952
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 4: and they were like a master manipulator, and so you

953
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 4: were victimized in your own way and now left to

954
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 4: kind of pick up the pieces, which is shitty. He's

955
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 4: a bad person, and it's not saying, oh, we should

956
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 4: keep blaming him and shame, shame, shame, shame, But there

957
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 4: at least needs to be this acknowledgment, and that might

958
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 4: take time. I mean I'm speaking things that might be

959
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 4: out in the future of therapeutic work for you. You know,

960
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 4: as you try to tease out the fact that Behay,

961
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 4: I really liked this guy. I trusted him. Yeah, but

962
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 4: then like what the fuck? Right?

963
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 7: I guess that's why I asked that question at the beginning,

964
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 7: and I wonder if it's part of my brain is

965
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 7: still trying to rationalize what I saw in him that

966
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 7: made him a good what I thought was a good person,

967
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,919
Speaker 7: which is why I asked, do you think he knew

968
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 7: what he was doing? And he because I guess that

969
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 7: changes things or does it?

970
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 5: Not?

971
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 4: For you? Not for you?

972
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 6: Right?

973
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 4: Your experience is your experience, and that's why there is

974
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 4: a big piece of healing, like in the WU since

975
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 4: we call it like inner child work, But there is

976
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 4: a piece of looking back. I mean, like, hey, I

977
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:49,720
Speaker 4: didn't know he knew and the blames on him because

978
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 4: all I knew was, hey, this guy was fun, he

979
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 4: was nice, he was he knew people, he was always

980
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 4: would come to parties. He made me feel so adult.

981
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 4: I felt seen by him, you know. But then as

982
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 4: we look back, we're like, he didn't have any friends

983
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,879
Speaker 4: that were women, which is kind of strange. He maybe

984
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 4: didn't even hang out with people his own age. I

985
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 4: don't know, that's a question I would have. Is there

986
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,240
Speaker 4: anybody he was close with that was his age or older?

987
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 8: There was definitely a few group. Yeah. Well, and he

988
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 8: was very well connected, very well connected with and so.

989
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 3: Much of that very well connectedness is also part of

990
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 3: the manipulation. Like I was thinking about writer, the story

991
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 3: you told when you saw him seven years ago, and

992
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 3: thinking about how his manipulation changed, and that all he

993
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 3: cared about when he saw you was walking away from

994
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 3: that situation, letting you know that these other famous, very

995
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 3: well connected people don't care about my crime. You shouldn't either.

996
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 6: Yep.

997
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I feel it.

998
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 8: I still feel it.

999
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 6: M Yeah, I mean, I'm so uncomfortable with doing this episode.

1000
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 5: I hate it.

1001
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,240
Speaker 8: I hate it, and I you know, and it's.

1002
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 6: Because I still feel bad. I still feel like we

1003
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 6: should not be ruining this man's life more. I still

1004
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 6: feel that, and I don't, you know, I mean, I

1005
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 6: think there's a lot of layers to that, Like, you know,

1006
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 6: it just makes me so uncomfortable, mostly because I don't

1007
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 6: We're gonna We're gonna air this episode and a million

1008
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:19,720
Speaker 6: articles are gonna be written.

1009
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 8: We know that's happened.

1010
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,399
Speaker 6: There's gonna be variety, there's gonna be clickbait articles. There's

1011
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 6: and we're not adding any new information to the world. Instead,

1012
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 6: we're bringing something that's already out there. But but it's

1013
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:33,280
Speaker 6: not in the foreground, right.

1014
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,760
Speaker 5: And it's it's we're shining a spotlight.

1015
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 6: It's not yeah, okay, but like the fact that this person,

1016
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 6: a convicted child sex offender work on Boy Meets World.

1017
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,280
Speaker 6: It's not like even one of the up one hundred

1018
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,240
Speaker 6: facts about Boy Meets World in the in the universe.

1019
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 8: After this, it's going to be.

1020
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,839
Speaker 6: Like the thing, right, it's gonna be, uh, it will

1021
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 6: rise to the top of like one of the most

1022
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:00,280
Speaker 6: talked about facts about us and our show, and like, okay,

1023
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 6: so what's wrong with that?

1024
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 8: And I think I have like.

1025
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 6: I think like heedophilia just lends itself towards to a

1026
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 6: moral panic and that I don't love the idea that

1027
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 6: like we're playing into the sort of conspiracy theories around Hollywood,

1028
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 6: which are ridiculous and so overblown.

1029
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 8: I think.

1030
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 6: I don't like the idea that like we are you know,

1031
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 6: affecting the cultural memory of Boy Meets World with this,

1032
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 6: because that's a bummer, because I feel like in my

1033
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 6: experience of Boyman's World, like it's not that big of

1034
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 6: a part of it.

1035
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 5: No, Well, but it has almost nothing to do with

1036
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 5: Boy Meets World.

1037
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 8: See that's what it's going, says to me.

1038
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 5: This has nothing to do with Boy means World.

1039
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 7: This has to do with me now as a forty

1040
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 7: seven year old man in the person I've become, and

1041
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,280
Speaker 7: this affected me as a person. In fact, the show

1042
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,399
Speaker 7: in any way, shape or form, it does affect my.

1043
00:50:58,360 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 5: Memory of the show in any way, shape or form.

1044
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 7: As a matter of fact, most of my memories of

1045
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:07,400
Speaker 7: this person and this manipulation happened after Boy for me. Yeah,

1046
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 7: so I think I think people will disconnect the two.

1047
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 5: Look, the clickbait articles are going to happen.

1048
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,320
Speaker 7: We just saw this last week where I told the

1049
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 7: story that I've told a hundred times before and it

1050
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:21,399
Speaker 7: blew up and it just.

1051
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 5: Came out of nowhere. So yes, it's gonna be everywhere.

1052
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 7: But that's also just the culture nowadays, and the people

1053
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 7: are going to believe what they want to believe. But

1054
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,280
Speaker 7: the people that are actually listening, I think actually listening

1055
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 7: will we'll see what we're talking about and realize that

1056
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:37,399
Speaker 7: it has nothing to do with Boy me World.

1057
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 8: But it's not even the culture nowadays.

1058
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 6: This is like a classic thing that's you know, the

1059
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 6: satanic panic of the eighties. You have like the Repressed

1060
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 6: Memories movement, Pizzagate, like right, Florida book bannings, like right now,

1061
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 6: it's like there's like it's a moral panic with pedophilia

1062
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 6: that is such and you know, there's a reason for it.

1063
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 8: It's like a it's like a unifying it's pure evial.

1064
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 6: It's like one of the few things that we can

1065
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 6: say is just awful no matter what, because like murder

1066
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 6: sometimes can be justified, right, Like there are times people

1067
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 6: can argue whether it's you know, but like sexual predator

1068
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 6: of children like now, like prisoners kill.

1069
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 4: I was just going to say, when you go to

1070
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 4: prison they.

1071
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, people, right, And so in a weird way, it's

1072
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 6: a rallying cry like unites people. It's like, well, we

1073
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 6: can all agree that like this is evil, you know,

1074
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 6: and and so in a way it becomes this like

1075
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 6: cycle of you know, like self, I don't know, So

1076
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 6: I'm just worried about playing into that moral panic.

1077
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 8: I'm worried about it.

1078
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 2: But this did happen. I agree with you.

1079
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 8: Right, But why are we talking about it?

1080
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 6: Why are we bringing it up now, you know, and

1081
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 6: that like, because I watched a lot of people behave

1082
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 6: horribly during boring mes War, Like I watched grown ups

1083
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 6: do awful things. I'm not furnishing their reputation. I'm not

1084
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:55,919
Speaker 6: bringing it up, you know. And so that that's where

1085
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 6: I'm like, why, you know, and that's what I But

1086
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 6: then I'm like, why am I feeling bad for this person?

1087
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 8: Why am I you know, because I'm not friends with

1088
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 8: this person.

1089
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 6: I can honestly say this person is I agree with

1090
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 6: everything that's been said, manipulative, charming in the awful way,

1091
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 6: like I can agree with all those things, but I

1092
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:13,800
Speaker 6: still feel, you know. And then, like I said, I

1093
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 6: worry about playing into you know, I think damaging our industry,

1094
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 6: which is an industry I love, Like I love Hollywood.

1095
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 6: I think it's you know, it's one of the few

1096
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 6: businesses that's built around art and expression, self expression, and

1097
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 6: I think it, you know, it's something I care about,

1098
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 6: and I feel like it Hollywood gets vilified by other forces,

1099
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 6: whether that's you know, politicians or the church or you know,

1100
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 6: like I feel like I oftentimes like Hollywood gets pushed back,

1101
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,359
Speaker 6: and I think pedophilia becomes an easy way to sort

1102
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 6: of like target Hollywood and like, you know, say like,

1103
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 6: oh see, it's a den of iniquity. That's just awful people,

1104
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 6: and it's been vilified historically time and time again, and

1105
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 6: so I hate playing into that.

1106
00:53:58,360 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 8: I hate the idea.

1107
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 4: Of, like what if we reframe it a little bit.

1108
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,839
Speaker 4: Not to be a total therapist, I apologize, but like

1109
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 4: what if instead of thinking like, oh, we're shitting on Hollywood,

1110
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 4: we're going to tarnish Boy Meets World, we instead say,

1111
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 4: you know, it actually happened. He was part of the cast,

1112
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 4: but it wasn't anything to do with the show itself.

1113
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 4: This isn't actually representative of Hollywood as a whole. But

1114
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,720
Speaker 4: the point of talking about it is to educate people

1115
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 4: so that other people in the world, because this doesn't

1116
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 4: happen in any kind of vacuum. This happens, unfortunately everywhere,

1117
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 4: to a lot of different children, probably you know, happening

1118
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:39,319
Speaker 4: to someone at this very moment, so one child can hear, hey,

1119
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 4: this is a little weird. This person's a little older.

1120
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 4: And I was listening to this podcast and somebody told

1121
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,319
Speaker 4: me that that's something I should like look out for.

1122
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 4: It's a red flag because if you're a teenager, you're

1123
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 4: not going to ask your parents because they don't know anything.

1124
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 4: We always think they don't know anything. That then maybe

1125
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 4: one kid could speak up or could remove themselves from

1126
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 4: a situation and not feel the way that you guys

1127
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 4: feel now, or like the way the victim felt in

1128
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 4: that courtroom.

1129
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 3: And also, if you are not a person who's being

1130
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 3: victimized yourself in the way of being sexually abused, you

1131
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 3: may still be victimized by just being a person. This

1132
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:20,839
Speaker 3: This person can say, look who I'm friends with?

1133
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and maybe you have to give you an opportunity

1134
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 4: to cut them out to be like, you know what,

1135
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 4: that is a little weird. I have other friends I'd

1136
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 4: rather spend time with, you know, And I think.

1137
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 5: You can dissect it from boy me to world. So

1138
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 5: it's also all this happened after boy.

1139
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:36,319
Speaker 7: I mean, this was We've talked about every guest star

1140
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 7: that's come on the show, and he's coming on the show.

1141
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 7: I mean, it's not if I could see what you're saying, writer,

1142
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 7: and you know, you and I've gone back and forth

1143
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:45,320
Speaker 7: about this. I didn't want to do this either. You

1144
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 7: didn't want to do this. It's been very tough. I

1145
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 7: can see it if it was just some guy that

1146
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 7: was never going to be on screen. It's a story

1147
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 7: we knew if people wanted to find it, they could

1148
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 7: find it. But the factor remains that we start every

1149
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 7: episode with Danielle reading down the guest list and who's

1150
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 7: there and who's on the episode, and that's gonna happen

1151
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 7: multiple times. He did like four or five episodes. So

1152
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 7: it's one of those things where she's right with what

1153
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 7: she said in the beginning, where we said we were

1154
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 7: gonna be honest about everything that went on. Damn the consequences,

1155
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 7: and it's you know what, are we just going to

1156
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 7: say his name and and then move on? You know,

1157
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:22,799
Speaker 7: I guess we could have done that, but I don't

1158
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 7: know if that would have been staying true to who

1159
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:26,439
Speaker 7: what we what we started doing.

1160
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 3: Do either of you still feel like like the manipulat?

1161
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 2: I mean, do you? I know you don't feel any

1162
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 2: sort of sense of like loyalty to him, but there

1163
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 2: is a little.

1164
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:52,359
Speaker 3: There's a sense of feeling like you want to still

1165
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 3: protect this person, do you, Katie? Can you talk to

1166
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 3: like are they still being manipulated?

1167
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:00,799
Speaker 8: Is this just is this.

1168
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,760
Speaker 3: A sign of like how good this person was at

1169
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 3: manipulating them.

1170
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a couple of pieces to it. He's obviously

1171
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 4: very good at what he does and forging what feels

1172
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 4: like a real relationship. And I don't want to take

1173
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 4: that from either of you will a writer to say like, oh,

1174
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 4: it wasn't a real relationship, but it was a facade

1175
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 4: of a relationship with goals in mind, which I think

1176
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 4: we could all take a minute and say, when we're

1177
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 4: friends with someone, it's just because we like them and

1178
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 4: they're nice, and we share maybe the same types of

1179
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 4: music that we like, or food, or we have the

1180
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 4: same joys. So none of us would have entered into

1181
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,000
Speaker 4: a relationship with a goal, but he did, and so

1182
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 4: he put together kind of writer. Like you said, when

1183
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 4: you saw him at that party, he gave you the

1184
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 4: willies because he was he was doing that web again

1185
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 4: to make you start to feel like he was important

1186
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 4: and he should be in your life. But you're not

1187
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 4: a kid anymore, and you had the ability to be like, yeah,

1188
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 4: you're like, what the hell is this it? You know,

1189
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 4: but he's very good at what he does, and I

1190
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 4: think the past, those past manipulations have painted this picture

1191
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 4: that we're having a tough time scene out of because

1192
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 4: you still have those old relationship memories. You have those

1193
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 4: old situations, and you know, he did go to prison,

1194
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 4: he did serve his time. You know, how long do

1195
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 4: we keep beating someone up for that? You know, there

1196
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 4: can be a lot of different views. Yeah, but I

1197
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 4: don't ever side with someone who's harmed another person by saying, oh,

1198
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 4: you can only talk about this for six months, or

1199
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 4: you can only be upset for x amount of time

1200
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 4: like that, We would all laugh and be like, that

1201
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 4: doesn't you can't say that, like, you know, someone harmed me,

1202
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 4: someone hurt me, someone hurt someone I cared about, someone

1203
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 4: made me feel like a jackass. They put me in

1204
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 4: a bad position. You know, those all those pieces of it.

1205
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 4: And so there's the old experiences that you guys get

1206
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 4: to have. You get to think of them however you

1207
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 4: want to think about them. Those are your life experiences.

1208
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 4: He was a friend of yours, that's okay. That doesn't

1209
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 4: make you a bad per and you didn't know, you know,

1210
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 4: you get to have that, which I know it feels

1211
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 4: like it can't coexist, but it can. But then there's

1212
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 4: this other piece when it comes to manipulation and abuse,

1213
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 4: where we can form what's called like a trauma bond,

1214
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 4: where when you feel like you've been through a war

1215
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 4: with someone, or you feel like you've been through a

1216
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,439
Speaker 4: certain situation with someone, and you feel bonded to them.

1217
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 4: And this can happen for many reasons. For a lot

1218
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:26,920
Speaker 4: of people, it's like, if it's active, like physical, sexual

1219
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 4: emotional abuse, we bond with them hoping that they won't

1220
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 4: hurt us again if I'm extra kind today, that won't happen.

1221
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 4: But for a lot of us, it happens in the

1222
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 4: fact where we're like, but wait, you know, we've been

1223
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 4: through a lot together. I you know, we were in

1224
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 4: this crazy experience together through Boy Meets World, and there

1225
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:47,880
Speaker 4: were some wild things happening in my life and I

1226
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 4: felt very vulnerable. And whether we recognize it or not,

1227
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,640
Speaker 4: we can be bonded with certain people through tumultuous times.

1228
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 4: And you could argue that in this case, with all

1229
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 4: that has happened and all that has come out, that

1230
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 4: we can in some ways feel bonded like we kind

1231
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 4: of and and for like Will, you're saying, like, he

1232
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 4: got me a role, so we're like, but I kind

1233
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 4: of owe the guy, like, I don't really have anything

1234
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,400
Speaker 4: to tell me, Like, he wasn't bad to me directly, right,

1235
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 4: but he kind of was, but he kind of was

1236
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:17,960
Speaker 4: a little yet.

1237
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 7: I mean again, and not that I ever recognized he

1238
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,720
Speaker 7: was always right. He's always the good guy, you know,

1239
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 7: the guy you want to be on the set with

1240
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 7: the guy but that's what he wanted to show up

1241
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 7: on time, and you know, that's that's all I ever saw,

1242
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 7: was the.

1243
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:33,919
Speaker 5: Guy with good stories who was good at his job.

1244
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 4: Of course he was, Yeah, And that the thing that

1245
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:41,960
Speaker 4: I can't it's it's going to take time to untangle.

1246
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 4: But I want you to both feel like you can

1247
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 4: do this, that you be like a goal is like

1248
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 4: to be able to acknowledge, Hey, he was a good

1249
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 4: friend of mine back then, but with the knowledge I

1250
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 4: have today, he's not. And those both can exist. I

1251
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 4: can say he's a dirt bag, but at the time

1252
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 4: when we were friends, he was a friend. I know,

1253
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 4: it feels like they can't co exist, But I think

1254
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 4: that might be the kind of like issue that we're

1255
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 4: running into, where you're like, but he was good to me,

1256
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:09,480
Speaker 4: He showed up on time, he was funny, We had

1257
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 4: a good time he didn't do anything to me directly,

1258
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 4: but now I know and even Writer like I saw

1259
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:16,920
Speaker 4: him a few like a few years ago and like,

1260
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 4: well that I wouldn't be friends with that person today. No, yeah,

1261
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,720
Speaker 4: I know, I'm sorry. I hate that this person did.

1262
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 5: To apologize at all for it.

1263
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 7: It's just it's it's all bad, you know, just that's.

1264
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 4: The wake of abuse of any kind, like the ripple

1265
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 4: effects go far.

1266
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 3: I think there's also a lot for especially for Will,

1267
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 3: but I know for Writer too, there's a lot of

1268
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 3: shame in feeling at all like they should feel bad

1269
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 3: for themselves. They feel so bad for his victim. Yeah,

1270
01:01:56,240 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 3: and that they sided with this other person instead of

1271
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 3: with this victim. And there's a part of them that

1272
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:07,520
Speaker 3: feels like if I think of myself as being victimized

1273
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 3: in it, I'm somehow taking away from the quote unquote

1274
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 3: real victim.

1275
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 4: That's why I said, it's not like PI, like you're

1276
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 4: not taking a slice from someone else. The Unfortunately it

1277
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 4: was not unlimited amounts of pain, you know. There are

1278
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 4: unlimited amounts pain, you know.

1279
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,480
Speaker 5: But I also think there's that everybody's trying to be

1280
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:24,920
Speaker 5: a victim.

1281
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 8: Nowadays.

1282
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 7: It seems like that should take it from you, I know,

1283
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 7: but it's it just seems like that's the first thing

1284
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:32,800
Speaker 7: you go to is I was a victim of this,

1285
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 7: or I was a victim of that, or and it's

1286
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 7: just to me in this entire situation, And I know

1287
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 7: I'm wrong when I say this. That's and I'm still

1288
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 7: going to say it. To me, there was one victim

1289
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 7: and I was on the wrong side in the courtroom

1290
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 7: when he was there, So that that, to me is

1291
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:46,440
Speaker 7: how I look at it.

1292
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 5: There was an actual victim and it wasn't me.

1293
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 4: Well, and sometimes the words can be strong, like I said,

1294
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:54,520
Speaker 4: like trauma or abuse can be heavy. Victim might be

1295
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:57,560
Speaker 4: too heavy. It might be easier for you to accept

1296
01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 4: if I said you were manipulated someone.

1297
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 8: You I mean that.

1298
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 7: I get, I mean that certainly. But yeah, there's yeah,

1299
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:11,520
Speaker 7: there was one victim here, and I hope he's doing okay. Frankly, god,

1300
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 7: I'd love to sit down with that guy.

1301
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 6: But I think, you know, going back to what you

1302
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 6: were saying, Katie about like reframing this in some sort

1303
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:23,440
Speaker 6: of positive way that can be helpful to other people.

1304
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 6: I think like the biggest takeaway for me is just

1305
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:34,120
Speaker 6: you know, we have this notion of like predators as

1306
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 6: evil people in trench coats, hanging out at schools, you know,

1307
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:41,280
Speaker 6: wringing their hands and whirling their mustache, and it's just

1308
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:46,120
Speaker 6: never the case. It's a family member, it's a coworker,

1309
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 6: and they are the coolest person. They are so nice,

1310
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 6: they are so fun, they're so and that is just like,

1311
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:56,800
Speaker 6: that's still so hard for me to wrap my head

1312
01:03:56,800 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 6: around personally, because I think of myself as having good

1313
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:06,080
Speaker 6: radar about people. Like no, I spent like so much

1314
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 6: of my adolescence being very good at eliminating people from

1315
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 6: my life who were my friends just because I was famous.

1316
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 6: I thought, you know, like I was like that was

1317
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:19,760
Speaker 6: what I got really good at, is like not dating

1318
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 6: women who just because I was in Team B one

1319
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:24,960
Speaker 6: found me attractive or because I was making money, or

1320
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 6: like I was very like I'm you know, I find

1321
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:30,800
Speaker 6: people I look for, you know, connection with the deeper

1322
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:34,000
Speaker 6: you know, And here I was falling for this guy

1323
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 6: as like a true friend, Like I really considered this

1324
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 6: person one of my close like close friends at that age.

1325
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 6: I'm also you know, because I was a budding film person,

1326
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 6: like you know, I was on a TV show but

1327
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 6: I was learning about movies and directing and writing and

1328
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:55,480
Speaker 6: like that's become my life. And this person was instrumental

1329
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 6: in that. Because this person was a film buff. They

1330
01:04:57,240 --> 01:04:58,920
Speaker 6: had worked in the industry and they could talk to me.

1331
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 6: We would sit and talk about film and movies and

1332
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:05,160
Speaker 6: like and then he had worked on all these classic films.

1333
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:06,880
Speaker 6: There no knew all these people, and so there was

1334
01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:10,160
Speaker 6: this part of this like film nerd community, and like

1335
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 6: it just felt I felt like I was very cool.

1336
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 6: I felt like I was very much like invited to

1337
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 6: the cool kids table, and I fell for it. And

1338
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:24,600
Speaker 6: that's just like I hope, you know, I just like think,

1339
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:28,000
Speaker 6: like I think everybody sort of gets that, Like, but

1340
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:31,880
Speaker 6: it's worth reiterating, like it's never the guy in a

1341
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:32,479
Speaker 6: trench coat.

1342
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:35,160
Speaker 8: It's never the stranger. I don't know, maybe it is,

1343
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 8: but that's like so rare. It's rare.

1344
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:40,480
Speaker 6: It's merely it's mostly those people who are you know

1345
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:43,600
Speaker 6: this the camp counselor the priest, the teacher. It's the

1346
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:47,400
Speaker 6: people who have access to children, and they're so freaking cool.

1347
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 6: They're so friendly, they're so and that is just oh,

1348
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 6: it's so basic, Like do you guys know Into the Woods.

1349
01:05:55,400 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 6: Yeah the musical, Oh yeah, I love I love that musical.

1350
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:04,000
Speaker 6: It's like, to me, it's like one of this I

1351
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 6: think it's like what for like some people what like

1352
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 6: Shakespeare texts are like I think Into the Woods is

1353
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:11,120
Speaker 6: like one of the greatest texts ever.

1354
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 8: That the lyrics, it's just I fin think it's so beautiful.

1355
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 6: And and there's these these songs in the first act

1356
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:19,640
Speaker 6: where Little Red Riding Hood and Jack sing about their

1357
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:21,959
Speaker 6: experience Jack from Jack and the bean Stalk sing about

1358
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 6: their experiences.

1359
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:23,760
Speaker 8: The most beautiful songs ever.

1360
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:25,960
Speaker 6: It's like, I mean, I cry listen to them all

1361
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:29,960
Speaker 6: the time, and uh, Little Red Riding Hood when we

1362
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 6: look up the lyrics, but you know, they're basically they're

1363
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 6: describing their their journeys that they had, Little Red riding

1364
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:37,640
Speaker 6: with the wolf where she gets swallowed, and Jack where

1365
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:41,080
Speaker 6: he finds the giants, and they're they're they're such beautiful

1366
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 6: songs because they're telling the story of these fairy tales,

1367
01:06:43,720 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 6: but they're also as characters narrating, they're interpreting their own

1368
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:51,200
Speaker 6: fairy tales, and they're like discovering that the ambiguity of

1369
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 6: growing up, Like.

1370
01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:55,040
Speaker 8: You know, they they they've entered.

1371
01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 6: They had this thrilling adventure that changed them permanently, and

1372
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 6: they're sad about that change.

1373
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:01,480
Speaker 8: They're like they grew up.

1374
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 6: And it complicates the sort of pat like easy interpretation

1375
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 6: of these fairy tales. It's like, because you look at

1376
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 6: like little Red Rider and it's like, don't talk to strangers, right,

1377
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:16,680
Speaker 6: that's like the thing. But she instead sings about being excited.

1378
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 6: She sings about how I was. I was excited and

1379
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:23,920
Speaker 6: scared by the wolf, and the wolf changed me in

1380
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:26,440
Speaker 6: ways that I'm actually happy about because now I'm able

1381
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:29,240
Speaker 6: to appreciate the flowers. And I you know, I didn't

1382
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:31,840
Speaker 6: listen to my mom and I went off the path,

1383
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:35,440
Speaker 6: and I actually cherished that I did that. But I'm

1384
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:38,280
Speaker 6: also very lucky to have survived. And she has, you know,

1385
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:41,040
Speaker 6: the famous line is like and I know things now,

1386
01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:43,600
Speaker 6: many valuable things that I hadn't known before. Do not

1387
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:45,600
Speaker 6: put your faith in a cape and a hood. They

1388
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 6: will not protect you the way that they should. And

1389
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 6: take extra care with strangers. Even flowers have their dangers,

1390
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 6: and those scary is exciting. Nice is different than good.

1391
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 6: That's so good, And it's like nice is different than

1392
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:02,120
Speaker 6: good is like it's kind of what we've been saying.

1393
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:05,080
Speaker 6: Oh and then it goes on. Now I know, don't

1394
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:08,520
Speaker 6: be scared. Granny is right. Just be prepared. Isn't it

1395
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:11,600
Speaker 6: nice to know a lot and a little bit not.

1396
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:15,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, like ignorance is bliss kind of part and there.

1397
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:17,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, like you've lost your innocence as a child, but

1398
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:20,599
Speaker 6: you know, and you want that back. We're also really

1399
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 6: glad that you had this experience. Anyway, Nice is different

1400
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:26,839
Speaker 6: than good is like one of those like essential lines

1401
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:27,800
Speaker 6: that I always think about.

1402
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:32,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, especially in this case, right, because super friendly, super nice,

1403
01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:35,600
Speaker 4: it's very different than good. And I agree with you.

1404
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:38,160
Speaker 4: It is important for people to know that a lot

1405
01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 4: of predators don't look like the big bad man in

1406
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:44,559
Speaker 4: a trench coat bringing his hands. At ninety nine percent

1407
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:48,040
Speaker 4: of the time it is a friend, a family member.

1408
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:51,280
Speaker 4: I mean, I even had a patient years ago who

1409
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 4: was abused by her uncle for years and was still

1410
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 4: in love with him, like as an adult.

1411
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 6: You know the thing, I think, even if you've had

1412
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:02,280
Speaker 6: the actual encounter, that the actual sexual encounter, I imagine

1413
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 6: you know, people that have been raped don't even think

1414
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:06,639
Speaker 6: of it as.

1415
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:07,599
Speaker 8: Rape, do you know what I mean?

1416
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:09,240
Speaker 6: Like they just think of it as they think of

1417
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:11,080
Speaker 6: it as a real love connection or a real actual

1418
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:15,320
Speaker 6: experience that was and that's that's the real awfulness.

1419
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:17,280
Speaker 4: But we can even see that, like you could apply

1420
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:19,439
Speaker 4: that same kind of belief to the situation that we're

1421
01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:22,000
Speaker 4: talking about, where like, you know, they see that as

1422
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:24,600
Speaker 4: a real relationship. You see saw your friendship as a

1423
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:28,559
Speaker 4: real friendship. Absolutely, And so it's it's hard. I think

1424
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 4: a lot of people don't understand that when something has

1425
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:33,680
Speaker 4: been has happened, when you've been manipulated or abused in

1426
01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:36,240
Speaker 4: any way, it's hard for us to make sense of

1427
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:38,559
Speaker 4: the fact that but hey, I had this relationship, but

1428
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:40,920
Speaker 4: I thought they cared about me. But now you're telling

1429
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:43,920
Speaker 4: me this is bad. I don't think that's bad, but this,

1430
01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:47,760
Speaker 4: you know it, I think that's that kind of I

1431
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:50,040
Speaker 4: guess would be that's part of that internal discomfort that

1432
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 4: you're both experiencing and why it's hard to talk about

1433
01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 4: and why you're like, I don't even know if I

1434
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:57,599
Speaker 4: want to. Why are we doing this? Because how do

1435
01:09:57,640 --> 01:09:59,960
Speaker 4: we feel about it? Uncomfort?

1436
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:06,519
Speaker 3: You know, well, Katie, thank you so much for being

1437
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:10,720
Speaker 3: here with us and helping us parse through these feelings

1438
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:15,920
Speaker 3: and helping us make sure we were sensitive to any

1439
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:19,880
Speaker 3: victims who may be listening. And if you suspect or

1440
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 3: if you or yourself are being abused or suspect someone else's,

1441
01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:26,240
Speaker 3: you can call one eight hundred sixty five six four

1442
01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:29,240
Speaker 3: six seven three. Help is available twenty four hours a day,

1443
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:32,680
Speaker 3: or tell an adult you trust, like your parent or

1444
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:33,240
Speaker 3: a teacher