WEBVTT - Terms and Conditions Apply 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:06.440 This is false prophets. The story of Hillsong, the Hipster's church. 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:10.520 It made millions of dollars, turned preachers into stars, but 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:17.200 fell to earth. I left Hillsong feeling spiritually abused and exploited, 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:21.480 and now I'm telling my story of life inside the megachurch. 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:26.360 I'm no Ami Uribe, and I'm proud to say I'm queer. 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:32.360 This episode is deeply personal. It's about my sexual identity 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:36.319 and rejection that might resonate with you, and I know 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:39.280 that could be triggering for some of you. The stories 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.879 you are going to hear are intense, with some moments 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:49.080 of distress, but also moments of joy. In twenty seventeen, 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.400 the year when I first walked into Hillsong Church, I 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:56.920 saw the huge welcome home sign. I thought welcome home 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:02.000 meant everyone. Later on I learned that welcome home had 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.959 terms and conditions at the bottom. That we're invisible, but 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:13.240 you kind of learn as you go. I'm mosta, how 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:19.800 are you? I'm good. This is my mom, Lorenza. She 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.200 was born in Mexico and lives in Arizona. We talked 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:27.240 most days, so I've had a bit of a bicultural 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.039 That's what I like to call it bicultural experience in 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.720 two countries where I can speak in Spanish and I 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:36.399 don't have an accent because I learned it so young, 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:39.680 and I don't have much of an accent in English either. 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:42.880 My parents told us that inside our home it was 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:46.080 Mexico we needed to speak Spanish, and as soon as 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:49.040 we stepped outside the door, it was the US and 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:52.520 we had to speak English. My mom's church preached that 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:56.200 homosexuality is a sin. I grew up in that kind 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.960 of church, and I walked away. When I moved to Boston, 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:05.920 I found Hillsong and I started to explore my sexual identity. Finally, 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:08.720 it was time to have a conversation with my mom, 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:12.320 so I ended up calling my mom after work. I 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:15.360 was laying on my bed and my room was really dark. 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:18.400 I wanted the safety of darkness. I don't know why 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:21.079 I felt safe in that. And I dial the phone 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:23.720 and I call my mom. I say I need to 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:28.360 tell you something, and she stays really quiet, and she 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.640 asked me, yeah, like what's happening, what's going on? And 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:35.640 I tell her I'm queer. I don't know what this 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:38.240 means for religion. I don't know what this means for 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:41.600 my life. But I need you to know that this 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.680 is who I am, and I'm letting you in a 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.240 little bit more into who I am as a person. 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:51.160 I'm figuring things out, and I know you're going to 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:55.560 have a lot of questions coming from her perspective as 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:57.679 a person who had been in the church I grew 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:02.480 up in. She immediately to You're going to hell, and 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:06.760 she started crying and had so much fear in her 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:10.000 in her voice, because that's all I could hear. I 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:13.040 could see, I could hear and feel that fear that 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:16.640 she had that I was not going to be in 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:20.160 heaven with her and she was losing me. And she 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:23.679 started bible thomping, which was what often we use when 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:27.240 someone is just throwing scripture at you and like hurting 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:29.280 you with a Bible as if they were banging the 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.840 Bible on your body. And so I had to go 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:36.240 back in my mind to the sessions and therapy where 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:38.600 I had talked to my therapist that if this happened, 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:42.240 I needed to set a boundary. I stopped her and 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:45.760 I said, Mom, I cannot do this right now. If 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.600 you're going to continue not allowing me to speak, if 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.080 you're going to continue to be hurtful with your words. 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:54.320 I need to step away. So I said, I'm going 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:56.720 to hang up the phone and I will leave it 0:03:56.880 --> 0:04:00.760 at that, and I did. If you've been through this, 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:04.240 you need to know that you have good friends. You 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:08.080 need to know you are loved. You need to be affirmed. 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:11.960 Step by step, I started to find out if Hillsong 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.920 was going to affirm me. First, I talked to my leader. 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:20.400 I vividly remember she was folding her clothes, her laundry, 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:25.480 and she asked me, so, what happened last night? And 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:29.479 I was like, seriously, Like I had said, I didn't 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.400 want to talk about this, and she says, well, why 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:35.880 did you feel the need to come out to your mom? 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.520 And I tell her because it's a big part of 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:43.159 who I am, and I wanted to no longer be 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:46.560 hiding this from her. I want to be openly me, 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:51.120 all of me. And she tells me, well, what is identity? 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:57.400 Is an identity so elusive? And I say, what, Like, 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:00.200 identity is a big part of who we are where 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:02.920 there's so many little things that make up our identity. 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.280 But I start telling her all of these identities. I'm 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:10.960 Latin X, I am a student. I am a Christian 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:14.800 at that time, and all of these things are coming up, 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:16.360 and I was like, this is who what makes who 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:19.719 I am? And being queer is right now a big 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:25.000 part of that identity. And she says, well, shouldn't our 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:28.400 identity in Christ be so much bigger than all of that? 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:34.120 Shouldn't you be identifying as a child of God first? 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:38.280 And I tell her, well, one thing isn't before the other. 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:42.000 It's just a whole combilation of who you are. It's 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:45.880 like a big circle. And that was really really eye 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:49.760 opening for me and for our friendship. And I realized 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:51.760 in that moment that I was not going to have 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:56.800 save conversations with her about this. It went from experiencing 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:00.719 friendship and everything so beautifully to having to hide this 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.840 big part of me and not be able to show that, 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:10.320 of fanning the door like it's beautiful. Yeah, it's beautiful. 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:15.360 Andrew and Anthony arriving at a hot studio in Sydney. 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:17.000 To be honest, if you had asked me to wake 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:20.360 up a seven am, I would have politely said nine. 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:24.240 They're linking up with us to talk about sex, identity 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:28.960 and God. Yeah. Andrew found Jesus at Hillsong when he 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:34.080 was thirteen years old. He's now thirty seven. Anthony is 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:38.839 a former Pentecostal preacher. He's seventy one. I'm twenty seven now. 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.800 So between us we have more than five decades of 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:44.840 the bizarre and painful things religion can throw at us. 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:48.880 LGBTQ people. Oh, three of us like to laugh at stuff, 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.560 but some of it has been really, really bad, and 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:57.160 we are all healing. Here's Andrew. I would say that 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:02.400 we are an ongoing work in progress. I think the 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:07.960 human experience is one of navigation and exploration, not setting 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:12.200 and forgetting. And so I would say that even with 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:16.960 these very challenging experiences, that sometimes it does take time 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:20.600 and not to judge that. And so one of the 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:23.640 things that I often think about and have been invited 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:28.160 to think about in the last several months, is honoring 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:32.000 the fact that my experience at Hillsong Church has been 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:38.520 an experience of complex trauma and complex PTSD. This for 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:43.560 me is a powerful remembering, a powerful telling of my 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.560 story that I think is really important to my healing 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:50.440 and really important to the next several decades that I 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:54.600 have here on this planet. Andrew wrote an amazing heartbreaking 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:57.960 blog about his experience. He's going to read some of it. 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.800 We start in the summer of nineteen ninety seven, the 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:11.480 summer Andrew discovered Hillsong. Wow. What an intoxicating mix of fellowship, community, love, 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:18.040 acceptance and best of all, great music. I finally had 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:23.920 an identity and an identity in Christ. I had instant friends, 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:29.160 I had a community. I also had two goals. Number 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:34.760 one be more like Jesus and number two sing in 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:40.000 that bloody band. I didn't have criteria, you know, the 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:44.120 criteria of a thirteen year old walking into a church. 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:47.360 I needed just love. And Hillsong at that time was 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:52.480 exciting and expansive. We were recording albums and you know, 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:57.160 new convention centers and the Prime Minister opening a building 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:02.719 in Norwest of Sydney. You know, music pumping, and lives changed, 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:10.160 meaning created. It was everything. I embraced every single aspect 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:15.160 of Hillsong Church. I was thriving in my new found faith, well, 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:21.080 at least thriving on the outside, hidden behind closed doors. 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:24.640 I had a really big conflict and at the time 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:28.280 I definitely did not have the resources to handle it. 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:30.760 It turned out I had quite a strong passion for 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:35.520 looking at naked men, a passion I could not shake 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:40.040 very easily. This secret would stay with me for many 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:46.719 years and actually come to haunt my every day. When 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.360 I was twenty years old, it came time to tell 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:54.720 Hillsong leadership about my big, dark and scary secret. My 0:09:54.800 --> 0:10:00.320 world instantly collapsed. Leadership asked me to leave the worship team. 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:03.640 I was asked not to tell anyone, and as a result, 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:08.280 I became incredibly isolated in my sin. I sobbed most 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:12.720 of these days. I felt numb. I feared that this 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:18.840 sense of evilness and isolation would never ever end. My 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:21.800 friends of ten years plus were not able to offer 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:25.640 support or love because they were kept totally in the dark. 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:31.320 I was encouraged to exercise to enhance my masculinity. We 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:34.480 prayed the demons off my back, and I was sent 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:40.120 to an outside minister for counseling who had a specialization 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:46.880 in homosexuality and more earth shatteringly for me, child sex offenders. 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:52.319 I felt evil beyond words. I felt demons crawling all 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:55.960 over my body, and the depths of despair cannot be 0:10:56.040 --> 0:11:01.280 described here. The identity I had rated within God's eyes 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:05.520 had vanished overnight. It is hard to say how one 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:10.400 survives these earth shattering moments, but most of us do. 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:14.760 Andrew decided to tell a close circle of friends and 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:17.760 leaders at Hillsong that he was going to live as 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:21.800 a gay man. He sent an email explaining his decision 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:26.040 and telling them he was leaving the church. Andrew said 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.520 I love you and asked for their love and return. 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:37.600 What happened after that is everyone abandoned the situation and 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:43.680 refused to engage, except for this email that I got 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:47.000 from the most senior pastor that I was sort of 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:51.120 being handled by at the church. So I sent that email. 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:54.360 Let me just give you the date. I sent that 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:59.079 in June twenty five, and I received this email back 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:01.920 from Hillsong. This is from an at Hillsong dot com address. 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:10.480 Hey Bro. Sorry, that's really funny. Can you believe he 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:13.760 wrote hey bro like it's actually written there? Oh my 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:17.240 fucking god, Hey Bro, I had a good read through 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:20.760 your email. I am a bit surprised, but not shocked. 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.200 I am going to have a shot at looking through 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:27.360 the eyes of the spirit to see if I can't 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:31.560 shed some light on your thinking. It's a long email 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:34.520 with references to lust of the flesh and advice to 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.319 Andrew that he should listen to his inner man. It 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.800 rounds off with this, even though you have thought this through, 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:45.240 it is possible that you have been influenced by the 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:48.560 enemy and his tactics. So I think it would be 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:51.440 good to talk this over and make sure that you 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:55.000 are not deceived or influenced by the spirit of the world, 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.920 which is very pro towards this type of lifestyle. See 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:04.400 what you think, still here to help out. I ignored 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:09.040 that email back in the day. Doesn't even hurt to read, 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:17.600 because it's just mad Hillsong speak. Mad hearing Andrew's story 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:22.359 is not shocking to me. Sad, yes, but not surprising. 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:26.600 The level of intensity is greater than mine, and the 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.800 counseling he was referred to costs so much pain. But 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.400 I do identify with what he suffered, and I admire 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:38.240 his courage. I look back at my twenty year old self, 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:43.120 the brave one who, even in that intoxication of Hillsong, 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:48.000 backed himself to leave. And you know, I sit here 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:51.760 feeling quite powerful that at twenty and twenty one, I 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:56.800 was able to make those moves and step out and 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.319 create the life that I get to live now. As 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.800 a thirty seven year old. It makes me think of 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.559 the things that I would like an apology for, potentially 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:08.400 if it was possible, But I just don't think it 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.640 is possible, which is, you know, the silence and the 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:16.959 shaming when I disclosed my same sex attraction to leadership 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:24.480 and the leadership response and being sent to an outside counselor, 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:31.880 and that really really fucking with my mind. You know 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:36.400 what I would love I want people to recognize that 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:40.000 these sorts of decisions made out of faith and what 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:45.240 they would describe as love or God's plan and their 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:50.360 lasting pain, hurt and harm that is caused by those 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:54.840 types of decisions. I would love for them to be 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:57.480 able to see it, connect to it. That's what I 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:03.600 would like them to know. I am Anthony Van Brown, 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:05.960 and in the form of lit I thought I was 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:11.160 a high profile Pentecostal preacher. I am the founder and 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:15.360 CEO of Ambassadors at Bridge build As International Abbey as 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:19.320 we call it, and author of the best seller A 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.880 Lot of That Learning a preachers struggle with his homosexuality 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:27.040 Church at Faith. Anthony is a really big part of 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:31.960 Andrew's story. When Andrew first read Anthony's life story, he says, 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:35.440 it was like every cell in my body was being noticed. 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:40.080 Anthony stories extreme, but in a way it is all 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:44.360 our story. Anthony wasn't a part of Hillsong, but his 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.720 story is all about being gay in the same type 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:52.920 of evangelical and Pentecostal churches, and his life story is 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:56.240 kind of living history and it helps us understand the 0:15:56.320 --> 0:16:03.000 past and the present. There was constant prayer, daily prayer. 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.800 There was lots of self hatred and self loathing and 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:11.480 confession to God and tears and praying and fasting and 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:17.360 exorcisms though through then. Finally in nineteen seventy two, submitted 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:22.520 myself to a residential program, which was one of the 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:26.120 first two in the world before it became a formal 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:30.640 thing like Exodus Internationalists some people would know about. So 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.320 as full on, you know, it was my constant focus. 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:36.360 I have to get rid of this thing because God 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:40.520 can't use me with this sin in my life. So 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.400 I've been around long enough to see this whole thing 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.280 of old so as I say, I was one of 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:50.080 the first to go through a conversion therapy type program. 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.480 In those days, we didn't even have a name for it. 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:56.160 It later became known as b X game, but there 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:58.480 was no name when I was doing in the seventy two. 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:02.600 Many people know this gay conversion therapy, and millions of 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.879 gay people have been subjected to this. It's been banned 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:09.160 in some countries, but is still legal in many, including 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:13.600 in parts of mine. In twenty ten, Hillsong Band referrals 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:17.040 to X gay or conversion therapy programs. But you don't 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:19.320 have to have been through gay conversion therapy to have 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:24.240 experienced trauma. In many churches. You know the hurt and 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:30.159 the damage, the trauma that almost every single LGBTQ person 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:34.760 within a pedecostal or evangelical church has been through. They 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:38.240 need to experience, Healey. One of the ways is through 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:43.000 an apology. It is so important to have those people 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:51.760 say we are sorry. I talked about the residential program 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:55.119 I went through recently. I worked with that church to 0:17:55.200 --> 0:18:00.359 become affirming, and I was there and they she's an 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:03.320 apology to me and to other people that have been harmed. 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:08.240 It's hard to describe in words just how meaningful and 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:12.159 how profound and how life changed, how a liberating that 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:17.800 can be for you. Fifty years later, and we went 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:21.360 and stood on the verandah where the leader of the program, 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.639 had humiliated me in front of my sister and brother 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:26.920 in law when they came to pick me up, and 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:31.160 her opening words to them was, your brother is one 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:36.320 of Sydney's worst homosexuals. And then she went on to 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:40.520 totally discredit me and shame me in front of them. 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:44.560 So after the apology, we walked down to the corner 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:48.080 of that veranda where that happened, and I took back 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:51.280 my power and I made some declarations about who I 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:55.800 am and who we are as LGBT people. I feel very, 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.600 very blessed, you know. I feel like I'm in a 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.520 good place that I would love to see others be 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:05.679 able to move on to that place, because I see 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:09.240 so many people still carrying the hurt and the trauma, 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:14.680 and I believe there's a way forward for you, and 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:18.199 I would love for you to experience some of that 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:24.040 resolution and some of that peace that I've found. Why 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:28.160 would someone who was treated so badly by evangelical Christians 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:31.639 want to spend a moment of his amazing life and 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:36.840 energy on them. It's because Anthony believes change is possible. 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:42.040 His work is about resolution, building bridges, and education. This 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:46.160 is how it works. Some people hate gay people, but 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:50.400 then others from hatred to dislike. Some people be from 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:54.280 dislike to discomfort. Some people then are able to be 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:58.920 from discomfort to tolerance, that others could be from tolerance 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:03.679 to accept the then people can be from acceptance to affirmation, 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:08.240 then finally to advocacy. So that's the continuum that I 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:12.440 work with with church leaders and Christian organizations to see 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:15.720 this as a journey that you are on and you 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:20.080 actually have made some progress in this. You're not back 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:22.280 with the people who hate people you know or that 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.000 you dislike. You know, you're in a much better space. 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:28.320 But you also need to do some work to move forward. 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:31.359 And what is it that you require to be able 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:34.000 to move forward? And it's going to be number one, 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:39.399 more education, more understanding. But of course they would never 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:44.879 really move forward unless they have some contact with LGBTQ people. 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.000 Anthony preached on a regular basis for Brain Houston A. 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.199 Hillsong from the time the church was founded until he 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:55.000 resigned from the ministry in nineteen ninety one and he 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:58.879 came out. So where does Anthony think Hillsong is on 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:03.000 the sliding scale from hatred to advocacy? I remember, but 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:06.160 I used to take Sometimes people used to say, oh, 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:09.280 we'd love to go to hill Song Church. I said, oh, well, 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:11.040 I'm happy to take you along, you know, and then 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:14.160 we would go to the coffee shop afterwards. And because 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:16.480 they was known there that one of the pastons will 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.560 come over and chat and introduced them to this dear person. 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:21.960 You know, they've just come to see what the churches 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:24.800 like us. They've heard so much about it. And invariably 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:27.639 the person would say, so, how do you feel about 0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:31.960 gay or lesbian people here and the church? And almost 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:37.639 every single time, everybody would say, well, everybody's welcome here 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:40.679 like it. It It doesn't matter whether you're a prostitute, you know, 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:44.159 whether you were a burglar, whether you were a murderer, 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:47.800 no matter what, whether you've been to jail, everybody's welcome here. 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:52.800 What a slap in the face. And also it showed 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:58.560 it demonstrated the person's complete ignorance about sexual orientation. Behind 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:01.560 the scenes, Anthony van Brown was working to change that, 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:07.480 but churches like Hillsong walk with them line Brian hoosted 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:11.320 before he resigned for the ministry. You know, we were 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:16.400 having conversations Brian and I and the porter conversations. We 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:19.360 weren't making them public because once you make them public, 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:23.600 then suddenly everybody else gets on board and hijacks the conversations. 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:26.280 So that was something I learned very early, the piece 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:31.560 keep it all under wraps. Initially those conversations were very 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:38.960 amicable and respectful and warm and beneficial, I believe, and 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:43.160 I remember that Brian went to New Yorker did a 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:49.040 media conference, and at the media conference he was asked about, so, 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:53.400 what's your view on gay marriage? And he was being 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:57.560 very careful about how he worded things, and instead of 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:00.800 being condemning, he said, you're, well, you know, this is 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:04.639 an important issue that all churches are dearly with and 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:07.639 it's true. It was not just hill Song, it was 0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:11.440 it's run across Christendom. And he says, the church is 0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:16.159 deally with this, and we're having conversations what he was 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.560 he was having them with me. But as soon as 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:24.280 he said that, there was this huge backlash from the conservatives. 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:26.800 What do you media having a conversation. There's no conversation 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:29.120 to be had. The Bibles really clear, you know these 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:32.399 people need to be pedan come to Jesus. So then 0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:36.200 I call it the homosexual hip hop. The pope doesn't. 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:39.520 Bride's done it several times, so there where they get 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:42.080 the backlash, then they have to then jump in and 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:45.320 then issue another media release. And his media release was 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:47.199 needs a lot of work. I wish I could have 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:49.960 helped him with that because it used all the red 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:54.480 flag words like gay lifestyle you know, and practicing you know, 0:23:54.520 --> 0:23:57.879 Oh my god, all the wrong words. I know what 0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:00.359 he was trying to say, but we're using or the 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:04.720 wrong worthy, which then cause another Then it wasn't the conservatives, 0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:07.840 it was the LGBT people and their allies who are 0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:09.399 up in I was like, how can what do you 0:24:09.520 --> 0:24:14.320 mean the lifestyle? What's this lifestyle business you're talking about? Yeah, 0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:21.040 so to ask you a questions, I think that here's 0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:24.440 something interesting which possibly a lot of your listeners would 0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:31.960 not know about. There are meetings of big megachurch pastors 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:35.840 every day and again who get together as anybody would, 0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:38.679 to talk about the issues that they're facing, all that 0:24:38.720 --> 0:24:42.160 sort of stuff. And I do happen to know that 0:24:42.640 --> 0:24:48.040 within those meetings the gay issue is brought up, and 0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:53.320 that there are mega church pastors who are further along 0:24:53.359 --> 0:24:58.720 the continuum than they would ever admit. Publicly. And so 0:24:58.880 --> 0:25:02.639 within these mega church fast as, there are pastors which 0:25:02.720 --> 0:25:05.879 are pretty well at the point where they have accepted 0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:10.840 that gay marriage is okay. But if they ever said 0:25:10.840 --> 0:25:13.640 that for the pulpit, that they could lose half their 0:25:13.640 --> 0:25:18.119 congregation tomorrow. So the thing that's holding that back Number 0:25:18.160 --> 0:25:21.120 one is power. A church split is very traumatic, by 0:25:21.119 --> 0:25:23.919 the way, on all people involved. I would wish that 0:25:24.000 --> 0:25:27.080 on anybody. But also there's the financial aspect. Don't you 0:25:27.119 --> 0:25:30.160 lose half your congregation, you lose half of your financial 0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:33.760 support as well. So there's a lot at stake, which 0:25:33.840 --> 0:25:37.760 is why they're not standing up and saying this is 0:25:38.119 --> 0:25:41.840 what I believe. Which, of course, when you consider that 0:25:41.960 --> 0:25:47.119 some of them are writing a lot about leadership, well hello, 0:25:48.640 --> 0:25:52.440 does it the leaders stand out and actually lead where 0:25:52.440 --> 0:25:55.920 he believes is the right way to take a congregation 0:25:56.760 --> 0:25:59.880 or you play it safe and a lot of the players. 0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:04.719 And that brings me right back to Boston and my 0:26:04.840 --> 0:26:09.959 Hillsong story. It's October of twenty nineteen. I knew I 0:26:10.040 --> 0:26:12.800 was queer, and I was deep into the church that 0:26:12.960 --> 0:26:17.119 was not being honest. Was Hillsong ready to affirm me? 0:26:17.920 --> 0:26:21.040 My leader of Hillsong urged me to identify as a 0:26:21.200 --> 0:26:26.760 child of God. I wasn't buying that. Next one of 0:26:26.760 --> 0:26:31.080 the Boston pastors, Steve de Grosa, stepped in with an offer, 0:26:32.600 --> 0:26:36.640 I want to mentor you. And I look at him 0:26:36.720 --> 0:26:41.679 and it's this white guy, a straight, cisgender Christian white man, 0:26:41.880 --> 0:26:44.560 which is like all the privileges you can think of 0:26:44.640 --> 0:26:48.720 in this country, in the US, And I'm like, you 0:26:49.119 --> 0:26:57.159 want to mentor a brown queer, a non binary Latin 0:26:57.320 --> 0:27:01.440 XT person. I'm like, okay. I didn't tell him those identities, 0:27:01.440 --> 0:27:02.879 but that's what I was going through my head. I 0:27:02.920 --> 0:27:06.240 was like, how can you provide any guidance to someone 0:27:06.320 --> 0:27:10.639 like me? But I was like, okay, sure, yeah, Like 0:27:10.760 --> 0:27:14.480 I'm down. I honestly just like didn't really care. And 0:27:14.520 --> 0:27:19.320 then we go back to the LGBTQ conversation and I say, well, 0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:23.120