1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: This is false prophets. The story of Hillsong, the Hipster's church. 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: It made millions of dollars, turned preachers into stars, but 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: fell to earth. I left Hillsong feeling spiritually abused and exploited, 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: and now I'm telling my story of life inside the megachurch. 5 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: I'm no Ami Uribe, and I'm proud to say I'm queer. 6 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: This episode is deeply personal. It's about my sexual identity 7 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,319 Speaker 1: and rejection that might resonate with you, and I know 8 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: that could be triggering for some of you. The stories 9 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: you are going to hear are intense, with some moments 10 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: of distress, but also moments of joy. In twenty seventeen, 11 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: the year when I first walked into Hillsong Church, I 12 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: saw the huge welcome home sign. I thought welcome home 13 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: meant everyone. Later on I learned that welcome home had 14 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: terms and conditions at the bottom. That we're invisible, but 15 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: you kind of learn as you go. I'm mosta, how 16 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: are you? I'm good. This is my mom, Lorenza. She 17 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: was born in Mexico and lives in Arizona. We talked 18 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: most days, so I've had a bit of a bicultural 19 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: That's what I like to call it bicultural experience in 20 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: two countries where I can speak in Spanish and I 21 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: don't have an accent because I learned it so young, 22 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: and I don't have much of an accent in English either. 23 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: My parents told us that inside our home it was 24 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: Mexico we needed to speak Spanish, and as soon as 25 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: we stepped outside the door, it was the US and 26 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: we had to speak English. My mom's church preached that 27 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: homosexuality is a sin. I grew up in that kind 28 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: of church, and I walked away. When I moved to Boston, 29 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: I found Hillsong and I started to explore my sexual identity. Finally, 30 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: it was time to have a conversation with my mom, 31 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: so I ended up calling my mom after work. I 32 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: was laying on my bed and my room was really dark. 33 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: I wanted the safety of darkness. I don't know why 34 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 1: I felt safe in that. And I dial the phone 35 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: and I call my mom. I say I need to 36 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: tell you something, and she stays really quiet, and she 37 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: asked me, yeah, like what's happening, what's going on? And 38 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: I tell her I'm queer. I don't know what this 39 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: means for religion. I don't know what this means for 40 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: my life. But I need you to know that this 41 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: is who I am, and I'm letting you in a 42 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: little bit more into who I am as a person. 43 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: I'm figuring things out, and I know you're going to 44 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: have a lot of questions coming from her perspective as 45 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 1: a person who had been in the church I grew 46 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: up in. She immediately to You're going to hell, and 47 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: she started crying and had so much fear in her 48 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: in her voice, because that's all I could hear. I 49 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: could see, I could hear and feel that fear that 50 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: she had that I was not going to be in 51 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: heaven with her and she was losing me. And she 52 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 1: started bible thomping, which was what often we use when 53 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: someone is just throwing scripture at you and like hurting 54 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: you with a Bible as if they were banging the 55 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: Bible on your body. And so I had to go 56 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: back in my mind to the sessions and therapy where 57 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: I had talked to my therapist that if this happened, 58 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: I needed to set a boundary. I stopped her and 59 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: I said, Mom, I cannot do this right now. If 60 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: you're going to continue not allowing me to speak, if 61 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: you're going to continue to be hurtful with your words. 62 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: I need to step away. So I said, I'm going 63 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: to hang up the phone and I will leave it 64 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: at that, and I did. If you've been through this, 65 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: you need to know that you have good friends. You 66 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: need to know you are loved. You need to be affirmed. 67 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: Step by step, I started to find out if Hillsong 68 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: was going to affirm me. First, I talked to my leader. 69 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: I vividly remember she was folding her clothes, her laundry, 70 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: and she asked me, so, what happened last night? And 71 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 1: I was like, seriously, Like I had said, I didn't 72 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: want to talk about this, and she says, well, why 73 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: did you feel the need to come out to your mom? 74 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: And I tell her because it's a big part of 75 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: who I am, and I wanted to no longer be 76 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: hiding this from her. I want to be openly me, 77 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: all of me. And she tells me, well, what is identity? 78 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: Is an identity so elusive? And I say, what, Like, 79 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: identity is a big part of who we are where 80 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: there's so many little things that make up our identity. 81 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 1: But I start telling her all of these identities. I'm 82 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: Latin X, I am a student. I am a Christian 83 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: at that time, and all of these things are coming up, 84 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: and I was like, this is who what makes who 85 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: I am? And being queer is right now a big 86 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: part of that identity. And she says, well, shouldn't our 87 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: identity in Christ be so much bigger than all of that? 88 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: Shouldn't you be identifying as a child of God first? 89 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: And I tell her, well, one thing isn't before the other. 90 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: It's just a whole combilation of who you are. It's 91 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: like a big circle. And that was really really eye 92 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: opening for me and for our friendship. And I realized 93 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: in that moment that I was not going to have 94 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: save conversations with her about this. It went from experiencing 95 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 1: friendship and everything so beautifully to having to hide this 96 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: big part of me and not be able to show that, 97 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: of fanning the door like it's beautiful. Yeah, it's beautiful. 98 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: Andrew and Anthony arriving at a hot studio in Sydney. 99 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: To be honest, if you had asked me to wake 100 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: up a seven am, I would have politely said nine. 101 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: They're linking up with us to talk about sex, identity 102 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: and God. Yeah. Andrew found Jesus at Hillsong when he 103 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: was thirteen years old. He's now thirty seven. Anthony is 104 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: a former Pentecostal preacher. He's seventy one. I'm twenty seven now. 105 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: So between us we have more than five decades of 106 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: the bizarre and painful things religion can throw at us. 107 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: LGBTQ people. Oh, three of us like to laugh at stuff, 108 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: but some of it has been really, really bad, and 109 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: we are all healing. Here's Andrew. I would say that 110 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: we are an ongoing work in progress. I think the 111 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: human experience is one of navigation and exploration, not setting 112 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: and forgetting. And so I would say that even with 113 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: these very challenging experiences, that sometimes it does take time 114 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: and not to judge that. And so one of the 115 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: things that I often think about and have been invited 116 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: to think about in the last several months, is honoring 117 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: the fact that my experience at Hillsong Church has been 118 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: an experience of complex trauma and complex PTSD. This for 119 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: me is a powerful remembering, a powerful telling of my 120 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: story that I think is really important to my healing 121 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: and really important to the next several decades that I 122 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: have here on this planet. Andrew wrote an amazing heartbreaking 123 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: blog about his experience. He's going to read some of it. 124 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: We start in the summer of nineteen ninety seven, the 125 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: summer Andrew discovered Hillsong. Wow. What an intoxicating mix of fellowship, community, love, 126 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: acceptance and best of all, great music. I finally had 127 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: an identity and an identity in Christ. I had instant friends, 128 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: I had a community. I also had two goals. Number 129 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: one be more like Jesus and number two sing in 130 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: that bloody band. I didn't have criteria, you know, the 131 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: criteria of a thirteen year old walking into a church. 132 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: I needed just love. And Hillsong at that time was 133 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: exciting and expansive. We were recording albums and you know, 134 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: new convention centers and the Prime Minister opening a building 135 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:02,719 Speaker 1: in Norwest of Sydney. You know, music pumping, and lives changed, 136 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: meaning created. It was everything. I embraced every single aspect 137 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: of Hillsong Church. I was thriving in my new found faith, well, 138 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: at least thriving on the outside, hidden behind closed doors. 139 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: I had a really big conflict and at the time 140 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: I definitely did not have the resources to handle it. 141 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: It turned out I had quite a strong passion for 142 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: looking at naked men, a passion I could not shake 143 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: very easily. This secret would stay with me for many 144 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:46,719 Speaker 1: years and actually come to haunt my every day. When 145 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: I was twenty years old, it came time to tell 146 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: Hillsong leadership about my big, dark and scary secret. My 147 00:09:54,800 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: world instantly collapsed. Leadership asked me to leave the worship team. 148 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: I was asked not to tell anyone, and as a result, 149 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: I became incredibly isolated in my sin. I sobbed most 150 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: of these days. I felt numb. I feared that this 151 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: sense of evilness and isolation would never ever end. My 152 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: friends of ten years plus were not able to offer 153 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: support or love because they were kept totally in the dark. 154 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: I was encouraged to exercise to enhance my masculinity. We 155 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: prayed the demons off my back, and I was sent 156 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: to an outside minister for counseling who had a specialization 157 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: in homosexuality and more earth shatteringly for me, child sex offenders. 158 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 1: I felt evil beyond words. I felt demons crawling all 159 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: over my body, and the depths of despair cannot be 160 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: described here. The identity I had rated within God's eyes 161 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: had vanished overnight. It is hard to say how one 162 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: survives these earth shattering moments, but most of us do. 163 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: Andrew decided to tell a close circle of friends and 164 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: leaders at Hillsong that he was going to live as 165 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: a gay man. He sent an email explaining his decision 166 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: and telling them he was leaving the church. Andrew said 167 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: I love you and asked for their love and return. 168 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: What happened after that is everyone abandoned the situation and 169 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 1: refused to engage, except for this email that I got 170 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: from the most senior pastor that I was sort of 171 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: being handled by at the church. So I sent that email. 172 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: Let me just give you the date. I sent that 173 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 1: in June twenty five, and I received this email back 174 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: from Hillsong. This is from an at Hillsong dot com address. 175 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: Hey Bro. Sorry, that's really funny. Can you believe he 176 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: wrote hey bro like it's actually written there? Oh my 177 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: fucking god, Hey Bro, I had a good read through 178 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: your email. I am a bit surprised, but not shocked. 179 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: I am going to have a shot at looking through 180 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: the eyes of the spirit to see if I can't 181 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: shed some light on your thinking. It's a long email 182 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: with references to lust of the flesh and advice to 183 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 1: Andrew that he should listen to his inner man. It 184 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: rounds off with this, even though you have thought this through, 185 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: it is possible that you have been influenced by the 186 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: enemy and his tactics. So I think it would be 187 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: good to talk this over and make sure that you 188 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: are not deceived or influenced by the spirit of the world, 189 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: which is very pro towards this type of lifestyle. See 190 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: what you think, still here to help out. I ignored 191 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: that email back in the day. Doesn't even hurt to read, 192 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: because it's just mad Hillsong speak. Mad hearing Andrew's story 193 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:22,359 Speaker 1: is not shocking to me. Sad, yes, but not surprising. 194 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: The level of intensity is greater than mine, and the 195 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: counseling he was referred to costs so much pain. But 196 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: I do identify with what he suffered, and I admire 197 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: his courage. I look back at my twenty year old self, 198 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: the brave one who, even in that intoxication of Hillsong, 199 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: backed himself to leave. And you know, I sit here 200 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: feeling quite powerful that at twenty and twenty one, I 201 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: was able to make those moves and step out and 202 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 1: create the life that I get to live now. As 203 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: a thirty seven year old. It makes me think of 204 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: the things that I would like an apology for, potentially 205 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: if it was possible, But I just don't think it 206 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: is possible, which is, you know, the silence and the 207 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 1: shaming when I disclosed my same sex attraction to leadership 208 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: and the leadership response and being sent to an outside counselor, 209 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: and that really really fucking with my mind. You know 210 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: what I would love I want people to recognize that 211 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: these sorts of decisions made out of faith and what 212 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: they would describe as love or God's plan and their 213 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: lasting pain, hurt and harm that is caused by those 214 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: types of decisions. I would love for them to be 215 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: able to see it, connect to it. That's what I 216 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: would like them to know. I am Anthony Van Brown, 217 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: and in the form of lit I thought I was 218 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: a high profile Pentecostal preacher. I am the founder and 219 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: CEO of Ambassadors at Bridge build As International Abbey as 220 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: we call it, and author of the best seller A 221 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: Lot of That Learning a preachers struggle with his homosexuality 222 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: Church at Faith. Anthony is a really big part of 223 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: Andrew's story. When Andrew first read Anthony's life story, he says, 224 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: it was like every cell in my body was being noticed. 225 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: Anthony stories extreme, but in a way it is all 226 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: our story. Anthony wasn't a part of Hillsong, but his 227 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: story is all about being gay in the same type 228 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: of evangelical and Pentecostal churches, and his life story is 229 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: kind of living history and it helps us understand the 230 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: past and the present. There was constant prayer, daily prayer. 231 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: There was lots of self hatred and self loathing and 232 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: confession to God and tears and praying and fasting and 233 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: exorcisms though through then. Finally in nineteen seventy two, submitted 234 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: myself to a residential program, which was one of the 235 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: first two in the world before it became a formal 236 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: thing like Exodus Internationalists some people would know about. So 237 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: as full on, you know, it was my constant focus. 238 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: I have to get rid of this thing because God 239 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: can't use me with this sin in my life. So 240 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: I've been around long enough to see this whole thing 241 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: of old so as I say, I was one of 242 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: the first to go through a conversion therapy type program. 243 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: In those days, we didn't even have a name for it. 244 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: It later became known as b X game, but there 245 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: was no name when I was doing in the seventy two. 246 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: Many people know this gay conversion therapy, and millions of 247 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: gay people have been subjected to this. It's been banned 248 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: in some countries, but is still legal in many, including 249 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: in parts of mine. In twenty ten, Hillsong Band referrals 250 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: to X gay or conversion therapy programs. But you don't 251 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: have to have been through gay conversion therapy to have 252 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: experienced trauma. In many churches. You know the hurt and 253 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: the damage, the trauma that almost every single LGBTQ person 254 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: within a pedecostal or evangelical church has been through. They 255 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: need to experience, Healey. One of the ways is through 256 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: an apology. It is so important to have those people 257 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: say we are sorry. I talked about the residential program 258 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: I went through recently. I worked with that church to 259 00:17:55,200 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: become affirming, and I was there and they she's an 260 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: apology to me and to other people that have been harmed. 261 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: It's hard to describe in words just how meaningful and 262 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: how profound and how life changed, how a liberating that 263 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: can be for you. Fifty years later, and we went 264 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 1: and stood on the verandah where the leader of the program, 265 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: had humiliated me in front of my sister and brother 266 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: in law when they came to pick me up, and 267 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: her opening words to them was, your brother is one 268 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: of Sydney's worst homosexuals. And then she went on to 269 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: totally discredit me and shame me in front of them. 270 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: So after the apology, we walked down to the corner 271 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: of that veranda where that happened, and I took back 272 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: my power and I made some declarations about who I 273 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: am and who we are as LGBT people. I feel very, 274 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: very blessed, you know. I feel like I'm in a 275 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: good place that I would love to see others be 276 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: able to move on to that place, because I see 277 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: so many people still carrying the hurt and the trauma, 278 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: and I believe there's a way forward for you, and 279 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 1: I would love for you to experience some of that 280 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: resolution and some of that peace that I've found. Why 281 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: would someone who was treated so badly by evangelical Christians 282 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: want to spend a moment of his amazing life and 283 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: energy on them. It's because Anthony believes change is possible. 284 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: His work is about resolution, building bridges, and education. This 285 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: is how it works. Some people hate gay people, but 286 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: then others from hatred to dislike. Some people be from 287 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: dislike to discomfort. Some people then are able to be 288 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: from discomfort to tolerance, that others could be from tolerance 289 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: to accept the then people can be from acceptance to affirmation, 290 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: then finally to advocacy. So that's the continuum that I 291 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 1: work with with church leaders and Christian organizations to see 292 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: this as a journey that you are on and you 293 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: actually have made some progress in this. You're not back 294 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: with the people who hate people you know or that 295 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: you dislike. You know, you're in a much better space. 296 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: But you also need to do some work to move forward. 297 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: And what is it that you require to be able 298 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: to move forward? And it's going to be number one, 299 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: more education, more understanding. But of course they would never 300 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: really move forward unless they have some contact with LGBTQ people. 301 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: Anthony preached on a regular basis for Brain Houston A. 302 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 1: Hillsong from the time the church was founded until he 303 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: resigned from the ministry in nineteen ninety one and he 304 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: came out. So where does Anthony think Hillsong is on 305 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: the sliding scale from hatred to advocacy? I remember, but 306 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 1: I used to take Sometimes people used to say, oh, 307 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: we'd love to go to hill Song Church. I said, oh, well, 308 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: I'm happy to take you along, you know, and then 309 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: we would go to the coffee shop afterwards. And because 310 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: they was known there that one of the pastons will 311 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: come over and chat and introduced them to this dear person. 312 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: You know, they've just come to see what the churches 313 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: like us. They've heard so much about it. And invariably 314 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: the person would say, so, how do you feel about 315 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: gay or lesbian people here and the church? And almost 316 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: every single time, everybody would say, well, everybody's welcome here 317 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: like it. It It doesn't matter whether you're a prostitute, you know, 318 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: whether you were a burglar, whether you were a murderer, 319 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: no matter what, whether you've been to jail, everybody's welcome here. 320 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: What a slap in the face. And also it showed 321 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: it demonstrated the person's complete ignorance about sexual orientation. Behind 322 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: the scenes, Anthony van Brown was working to change that, 323 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: but churches like Hillsong walk with them line Brian hoosted 324 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: before he resigned for the ministry. You know, we were 325 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: having conversations Brian and I and the porter conversations. We 326 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 1: weren't making them public because once you make them public, 327 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: then suddenly everybody else gets on board and hijacks the conversations. 328 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: So that was something I learned very early, the piece 329 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: keep it all under wraps. Initially those conversations were very 330 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: amicable and respectful and warm and beneficial, I believe, and 331 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: I remember that Brian went to New Yorker did a 332 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: media conference, and at the media conference he was asked about, so, 333 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: what's your view on gay marriage? And he was being 334 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: very careful about how he worded things, and instead of 335 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: being condemning, he said, you're, well, you know, this is 336 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 1: an important issue that all churches are dearly with and 337 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: it's true. It was not just hill Song, it was 338 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: it's run across Christendom. And he says, the church is 339 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: deally with this, and we're having conversations what he was 340 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: he was having them with me. But as soon as 341 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: he said that, there was this huge backlash from the conservatives. 342 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: What do you media having a conversation. There's no conversation 343 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: to be had. The Bibles really clear, you know these 344 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: people need to be pedan come to Jesus. So then 345 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: I call it the homosexual hip hop. The pope doesn't. 346 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: Bride's done it several times, so there where they get 347 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: the backlash, then they have to then jump in and 348 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: then issue another media release. And his media release was 349 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,199 Speaker 1: needs a lot of work. I wish I could have 350 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: helped him with that because it used all the red 351 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: flag words like gay lifestyle you know, and practicing you know, 352 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: Oh my god, all the wrong words. I know what 353 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: he was trying to say, but we're using or the 354 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: wrong worthy, which then cause another Then it wasn't the conservatives, 355 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: it was the LGBT people and their allies who are 356 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 1: up in I was like, how can what do you 357 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: mean the lifestyle? What's this lifestyle business you're talking about? Yeah, 358 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: so to ask you a questions, I think that here's 359 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: something interesting which possibly a lot of your listeners would 360 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: not know about. There are meetings of big megachurch pastors 361 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: every day and again who get together as anybody would, 362 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 1: to talk about the issues that they're facing, all that 363 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 1: sort of stuff. And I do happen to know that 364 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: within those meetings the gay issue is brought up, and 365 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: that there are mega church pastors who are further along 366 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: the continuum than they would ever admit. Publicly. And so 367 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: within these mega church fast as, there are pastors which 368 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: are pretty well at the point where they have accepted 369 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: that gay marriage is okay. But if they ever said 370 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: that for the pulpit, that they could lose half their 371 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: congregation tomorrow. So the thing that's holding that back Number 372 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 1: one is power. A church split is very traumatic, by 373 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 1: the way, on all people involved. I would wish that 374 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: on anybody. But also there's the financial aspect. Don't you 375 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: lose half your congregation, you lose half of your financial 376 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: support as well. So there's a lot at stake, which 377 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: is why they're not standing up and saying this is 378 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: what I believe. Which, of course, when you consider that 379 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: some of them are writing a lot about leadership, well hello, 380 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: does it the leaders stand out and actually lead where 381 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: he believes is the right way to take a congregation 382 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: or you play it safe and a lot of the players. 383 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,719 Speaker 1: And that brings me right back to Boston and my 384 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,959 Speaker 1: Hillsong story. It's October of twenty nineteen. I knew I 385 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: was queer, and I was deep into the church that 386 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: was not being honest. Was Hillsong ready to affirm me? 387 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: My leader of Hillsong urged me to identify as a 388 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: child of God. I wasn't buying that. Next one of 389 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: the Boston pastors, Steve de Grosa, stepped in with an offer, 390 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 1: I want to mentor you. And I look at him 391 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: and it's this white guy, a straight, cisgender Christian white man, 392 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: which is like all the privileges you can think of 393 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: in this country, in the US, And I'm like, you 394 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: want to mentor a brown queer, a non binary Latin 395 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: XT person. I'm like, okay. I didn't tell him those identities, 396 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 1: but that's what I was going through my head. I 397 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: was like, how can you provide any guidance to someone 398 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: like me? But I was like, okay, sure, yeah, Like 399 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: I'm down. I honestly just like didn't really care. And 400 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: then we go back to the LGBTQ conversation and I say, well, 401 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: that's honestly holding me back because I have not had 402 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: a straight answer from anyone. What is hillsong stance on 403 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: LGBTQ people and what are the LGBTQ policies that this 404 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 1: church has. He kind of just stays quiet, and he's like, well, 405 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: you know, it's a case by case basis. So he 406 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 1: starts giving me the same response that my leader had 407 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: given me, and I'm like, I'm not going to fall 408 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: for this again. By this point, I had learned about 409 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 1: queer theology and I knew how to ask these type 410 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: of questions and how to frame him in the way 411 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: to help you realize if this was a safe, affirming 412 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: church or not. So I look at him and I say, Okay, 413 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: like I'm not going to go down this rabbit hole 414 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: with you. Of like, it's a case by case basis 415 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 1: and it depends on the pastor and this and that. 416 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,239 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm going to ask you yes or 417 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: no questions, and he's like okay. I was like, would you, 418 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: as a pastor who's ordained, be able to marry me 419 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,719 Speaker 1: and my partner who happens to be of the same sex. 420 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 1: And he just stares at me and is like, well, 421 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: at Hillsong Church, we don't really perform marriages. It's rare 422 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: on rare occasions for like friends and family. And I'm like, okay, Steve, 423 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: you are my friend, are you not? And he's like, 424 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: well yeah. I was like, okay, you as my friend. 425 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: I go to you and I say, hey, Steve, can 426 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: you marry my partner? And I who happens to be 427 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: of the same sex. We want to get married, and 428 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: we've been together for a while and it's a loving, consensual, 429 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: committed relationship. And he kind of just stares at me 430 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: and it is like, well no, and I'm like okay, 431 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: and he's like, well, I believe marriage is between an 432 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: amount and a woman. And he goes off a spiel 433 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: and I'm like, Okay, that's not what we're going to 434 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: go into. You said no, we're taking them now. It's like, 435 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: next question. And I started feeling like a lawyer in 436 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: this moment and someone was on the stance, and I say, okay, 437 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: next question. I am a qualified public health professional and 438 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: Hillsong posts a job description for someone they're looking for 439 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: to hire. It is an amazing job, and I have 440 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: all the qualifications to perform that job, and I apply 441 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: to that job. But I happen to be married to 442 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: someone of the same sex, or I happen to be 443 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: openly queer. Would Hillsong Church hire me or at least 444 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: let me go through the interview process or anything. Would 445 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: they just hire me if I happen to be queer, 446 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: Like if that happens to be another one my identities 447 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: and openly queer, not hidden like openly and he stays quiet. 448 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: He's like, well, we don't know who's going to apply 449 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: and who's going to go through the process. And I'm like, 450 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: that's not the question, like reassess, like coming back, would 451 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: Hillsock to retire me as an openly queer person for 452 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: this job that I'm like qualified and maybe even overly qualified? 453 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: And he's like, well, no, because the people we hire 454 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: at Hillsong need to have the same stance and we 455 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. 456 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: And I was like, Okay, finally someone said something. Thank you, 457 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: that's the answer I've been looking for for almost two years. 458 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: And he kind of realizes that he fucked up because 459 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: he told me and he was like, um, well, you know, 460 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: like I said, it's a case by case spaces, so 461 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: we don't really know. And I was like, no, that's 462 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: all I needed to hear. And I was like, I 463 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: honestly feel like I have finally had the answers that 464 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: I needed, that I've been asking for for over a year, 465 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: and I am ready to go. It makes me smile 466 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: listening to myself just remembering how I put them through 467 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: the ringer when you know what questions you should ask. 468 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,959 Speaker 1: It seems so simple, doesn't it, But it took a 469 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: long time to get out. I want to thank Andrew 470 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: and Anthony for sharing their story. You can learn more 471 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: about the work Anthony ben Brown is doing at Ambassadors 472 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: and bridge Builders International on the website at www dot 473 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: abbi dot org dot AU. And my mom. She went 474 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: to a women's conference for her church and stood up 475 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: and talk to people about me. She shared her story 476 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: and how she was struggling, but she was also encouraging 477 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: them to love people like me, to love gay people, 478 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: to love LGBTQ people, because the way the church was 479 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: treating us was not the way Jesus would for me. 480 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: It was shocking. Honestly, I didn't expect her to get 481 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: up and talk about me. She was in a church 482 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: that was excluding people like me, and for her to 483 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: do that was going to cause retaliation for her, and 484 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: it did. So I'm really proud of her because I 485 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: realized that she was actually listening, that she was actually learning, 486 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: and that she was actually putting that into practice by 487 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: sharing with others and encouraging them to love LGBTQ people 488 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: in general, and the next part of my story, I 489 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: hit my lowest point. My mental health crisis leads me 490 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: to a psychiatric hospital and an incredible friendship. A drag 491 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: queen and a bad sermon from Carl Lentz only gets 492 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: me to the exit door.