1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: I'm their Dowdy and I'm to blay a truck reporting. 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: And you know, when you think about historical pirates, you 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 1: usually picture the Pirates of the Caribbean Johnny Depp variety scoundrels, 6 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: social deviants, basically working by themselves and every ship for 7 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: itself type capacity, trying to add to or protect their 8 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 1: store of bounty. Usually in my imagination at least, that's 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: some big treasure chest Spanish galleon. Yeah, anything like that, 10 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: overflowing with gold. And the pirates of the past that 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: we hear about, they're also most often from the West, 12 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: and they're usually men. Yeah, I guess unless Karen Nightly 13 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: turns pirates than like the second or third movie, that's true, 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: there's always sequels to help out. But piracy also flourished 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: for a while on the other side of the world 16 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: in the South China Sea. It was kind of during 17 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: the end of the eighteenth century the beginning of the 18 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: nineteenth around seventeen eighteen ten there in that range, and 19 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: it grew at that time to become this great menace 20 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: in that area. Transformed from being just a few small 21 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: scale Chinese pirates who were working on their own to 22 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: a huge pirate confederation that was actually a big lucrative business. 23 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: And dion H Murray, who was the author of a 24 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: book called Pirates of the South China Coast, he gives 25 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: us a few reasons for why that happened. Why did 26 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: this really take off at this time? The first reason 27 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: is that there were some particular ecological conditions that contributed 28 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: to it. Um the ecological conditions they allowed petty piracy, 29 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: the piracy that existed before it really blew up to 30 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:52,639 Speaker 1: kind of flourish small scale pirates, small scale exactly. Also, 31 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: pirate participation in a Vietnamese rebellion around seventeen eighty six 32 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: helped the situation as well, because Chinese pie rates they 33 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: learned to work together. They got together to help the 34 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: Vietnamese rebels and saw that cooperation between them was finally possible. 35 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 1: But perhaps most importantly, there were several far sighted leaders 36 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: that emerged around this time who were able to kind 37 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: of bring all these pirate gangs, so to speak, together, 38 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: And the most notable and influential among these was probably 39 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: Chung Sau, who, as a woman was definitely not your 40 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: typical pirate leader. Yeah. And if you've listened to Molly 41 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,239 Speaker 1: and Kristen's recent episode on female pirates for stuff Mom 42 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: never told you, you know that she's not the only 43 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: female pirate in history. There's a Bonnie Mary Read. You know, 44 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: they're probably the more famous names. In fact, we got 45 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: a lot of suggestions for those two as well, um 46 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: Rachel Wall who worked off the coast of Maine. I mean, 47 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: they're definitely definitely a few other famous female pirates. But 48 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: chung Esau, who was also known as Madam Chong and 49 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: sometimes all the Dragon Lady thus the title, was definitely 50 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: one of the most successful of these female pirates, and 51 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: that was partly because she had some really really good 52 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: business sense, and she was brutal about it, but she 53 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: she knew what she was doing, and she knew how 54 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: to get a team of pirates to work together, and 55 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: that ultimately, that good business sense ultimately helped her run 56 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: this entire pirate confederation and eventually come out of it 57 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 1: a lot better than not just most women pirates, but 58 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: most pirates in general. Definitely, that said, though she did 59 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: appear to have some humble beginnings. Although we were not 60 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: really sure about them. We don't really know much about 61 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: her early life. She was born in seventeen seventy five, 62 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: but she enters the pirate world by becoming the wife 63 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: of pirate leader Chung E. Now Changese family had been 64 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: involved in piracy since the seventeenth century. He himself, according 65 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: to some, was the son of a peasant hunchback who 66 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: was turned out and forced to turn pirate because his 67 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: father basically couldn't feed him could pay to support him anymore. 68 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: So he became one of the principal founders of this 69 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,839 Speaker 1: pirate confederation and eventually emerged as its leader. Yeah, and 70 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: accounts vary here, but most of them say that Chungy's 71 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: bride was a prostitute named either She Young or Si 72 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: Kai Um, depending on which account you're looking at Um, 73 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: And supposedly she worked on one of the flower boats 74 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: which were floating brothels in the harbor and came into 75 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: contact with this pirate leader that way. Um. Author Myra 76 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: Weatherly wrote in Women Pirates, Eight Stories of Adventure that 77 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: she had another sort of background, maybe something a little 78 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: more interesting than just a random lady off of one 79 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: of these flower boats. Right, here's another story about how 80 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: chuny and chungy Saal could have gotten together. When Chung 81 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: E was ready to take a wife, twenty bound and 82 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: captured females were brought to him. One was a peasant 83 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: girl named Chi Kai, who had the skin the tint 84 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 1: of rich cream, but at the cheek was deep rose. 85 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: This is how she was described, and was said that 86 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: before the beauty of her face, the eyes of men 87 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: grew confused. So quite the knockout. Smitten with her, Chung 88 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: has her untied. But what he doesn't realize is that 89 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: her feet aren't deformed by binding like some Chinese women 90 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: at the time's feet were, so once she was free, 91 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: she lunged and attacked him and had to be pulled 92 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: away by other people. Future pirate indeed right, So somehow 93 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 1: this doesn't deter her suitor at all. He offers her 94 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: everything that you would think a girl at that time 95 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: would want, jewelry, cosmetics, brightly colored silks, and slaves of 96 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: her home, if only she will promise to marry him. 97 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: But she holds out, doesn't she she does, she wants more. 98 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: She only agrees to marry him if he'll give her 99 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: half of his wealth and joint command of his entire 100 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: pirate fleet. So it makes a good story, and we 101 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: don't know for sure whether it's all true or not. 102 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: But what we do know is that Chunghy's wife, who 103 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: became known as chungy Thou, which literally means the wife 104 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: of Long. Pretty straightforward there. Um, she did come to 105 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: help him run the Pirate Confederation, whether or not she 106 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: owns half of it officially. And the Pirate Confederation is 107 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: really quite impressive. It's composed of six principal fleets, red, yellow, blue, green, black, 108 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: and white. They have sort of a Captain Planet kind 109 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: of vibe, I guess. And um, she's not just a 110 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: silent partner in this this confederation either. She really plays 111 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: an active role. Yeah, she actually ran one of the fleets, 112 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: I think one of the bigger ones, and she was 113 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: really good at it too. By most accounts. Her signature 114 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: strategy was to take the enemy by surprise and then 115 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: overpower them with hand to hand combat. So here's kind 116 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: of what she did. Basically, the vessels that they used 117 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: were called junks. They were these flat bottomed boats that 118 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: had sales and you'll hear us refer to them like 119 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: that throughout the podcast. And these were really great for 120 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 1: speed and navigation and shallow waters. Pirates, by the way, 121 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: often preferred the shallow water because it was less treacherous 122 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: than being out at sea and also something that doesn't 123 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: really jive with how we normally think of pirates sailing 124 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: across the ocean, right we imagine these big battles that 125 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: happened in the middle of the ocean, But no, actually 126 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: they stick stuck a lot closer to the coast because 127 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: that was actually part of their business too. They would 128 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: have team up with bandits and have raids on land 129 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: as well. So Madam Chung would conceal most of her 130 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: junks behind a long strip of land jutting out into 131 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: the sea and send a couple out as decoys. Then 132 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: after making initial contact with whatever both they're about to attack, 133 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: she would send out the remaining ships to attack. So 134 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: a big surprise attack all of a sudden with all 135 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: of these junks coming out. And another thing that not 136 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: just she did, but other Chinese pirates of the time, 137 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: they'd use these bamboo pikes with faber like blades, so 138 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: that would be pretty scary if you suddenly had a 139 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: bunch of junks surprisingly coming out of nowhere with these 140 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: spike blades, and then they'd also fill large boats with 141 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: straw and set them on fire and just sort of 142 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: push them out into the middle of combat, so their um, 143 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: their enemies would be frightened by boats the flame. Yeah, 144 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: that also sounds pretty intimidating. They would also hurl firebrands 145 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: at enemy sales, so not something that you would want 146 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: to see coming your way if you're on the water. 147 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: And the pirates would also get themselves hyped up for 148 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: these events. They would drink a mixture of wine and 149 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: gunpowder when going into battle, and apparently they would just 150 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: look crazy coming at you. Whether maybe it's just the line, 151 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, Maybe it was just the gunpowder would 152 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: have what positive book backed gunpowder would have. You seem 153 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 1: to have some special knowledge of this, Perhaps they're thankfully not. 154 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: Another thing I fortunately don't have any special knowledge of 155 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: is eating the hearts of vanquished foes, which is that 156 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: are really unfortunate that you don't have any knowledge. I 157 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: think I'd be in a lot of trouble if I 158 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: had knowledge about that. Um. But yeah, they would do 159 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: the to work up their courage, you know, So have 160 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: some hearts, have some wine and gunpowder and then go 161 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: out there with your bamboo pikes. Yeah, and you wouldn't 162 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: be going out there without any sort of luck on 163 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: your side either, because the pirates actually sprinkled themselves with 164 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: garlic water as a charm to ward off bullets. So 165 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: they are pretty well covered. They're not taking any chances now, 166 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: and and clearly they're successful with all of these strategies 167 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: because by eighteen o four, the Chung's Pirate Confederation included 168 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: about four hundred junks and seventy thousand men, so that 169 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: is quite a fleet of pirates to man. And they 170 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 1: even draw up a constitution in eighteen o five, because 171 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: if you have all of these different pirates, you know 172 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: it's a good idea to have some sort of document 173 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: that governs them. All of the different pirate leaders signed 174 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: the constitution and it makes Chung E the chief admiral. Yeah, 175 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: so we can see them getting more and more organized 176 00:09:58,200 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: as they go along. And that was just a few 177 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 1: year is into it. By seven though, Chungy dies and 178 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: it's likely that he was blown overboard in a gale 179 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: and drowned. That's the story that you see around protect again, No, 180 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't protect against the gals. Apparently so the Chinese 181 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: pirates they met to elect a new leader. And again 182 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: this is kind of legend. We're not exactly sure how 183 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: accurate this is, but it said that Madam Chung showed 184 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: up at this meeting dressed in a chief's uniform, in 185 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: the chief's uniform, that is, her husband's former uniform, which 186 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: was a robe of purple, blue, red, and gold, and 187 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: it was embroidered all over with dragons, which suits her 188 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: nickname right. And she wore some of her dead husband's 189 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: swords along with us and his war helmet. And when 190 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: she appeared before the men, she told them, quote, look 191 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: at me, Captain's, your departed chief sat in council with me. 192 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: Your most powerful fleet, the White under my command took 193 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: more prizes than any others did. Do you think I 194 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: will bow to any other chief? Okay? And they did not. 195 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: She took command virtually uncontested. But to secure her position, 196 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: she knew that she needed to get someone to assist 197 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: her in managing the daily operations of the Red Fleet. Specifically, 198 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: it was especially large head anywhere from twenty thousand to 199 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: forty thousand men, and she needed this to be someone 200 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: who could win over the rank and file pirates and 201 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: who would remain absolutely loyal to her. So these two 202 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: things were essential. So for this role, she picked Chung Pao, 203 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: her adopted son. Chung Pau was a fisherman's son who 204 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: had joined the pirates at fifteen after having been captured 205 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:39,079 Speaker 1: by Chungy, and Chungy really took a liking to Chong Pao. 206 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 1: He liked him so much. In fact, this was a quote, 207 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: he liked him so much that he could not depart 208 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: from him. So it seems like there's a little bit 209 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: of emotional tie there, to say the least. And he 210 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: becomes this protege, so there's maybe a dual relationship going on. Yeah, 211 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: he becomes his protege. And it's also said that they 212 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: might have had some sort of homosexual liaison or relationship. 213 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how extensive it was, if it was 214 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: just something to kind of draw Chunk Pou into the yeah, 215 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: into the pirate fold, or or if it was an 216 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: actual relationship, but there was that there. Yeah, and Madam 217 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: Chung also takes a liking to this young man and 218 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: selects him. She thinks he will be boyle and to 219 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: seal the deal, she also has sex with him and 220 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: they become lovers and later even husband and wife. So 221 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: it's another pirate partnership again. Yeah, and just a strange 222 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: twist since he goes from being her adopted son. Yeah. 223 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: I know, it's kind of a little uncomfortable. I don't 224 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: want to think about that one too much. But such 225 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: as it was, Chung Poo actually proved to be a 226 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: really business like and effective leader. It said that he 227 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: was charismatic and he wore this flamboyant outfit. It was 228 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: a purple silk robe along with a black turban. And 229 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: he was also really superstitious. Like all pirates, he would 230 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 1: pray before they out for any sort of attack or plundering, 231 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: and if the omens were bad, they basically wouldn't go. 232 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: That would be a sign that the mission was no. 233 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's interesting. That's another thing you 234 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: can think of pirates is just being kind of drunken 235 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: in craze, but a lot of planning and superstition going 236 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:21,199 Speaker 1: into something and religion here too. I mean, they prayed diligently. Yeah, 237 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: it's it's kind of surprising to see. But once um 238 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: Madam Chung's position was secure, you know, once she had 239 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: this this number two, and the confederation was solid. She 240 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: consolidated the confederation further by issuing a code of laws 241 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: that regularized operations, just regularized operations regarding just about everything 242 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: in pirate life, really keeping people in check. And the 243 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: code was severe too, as you would expect a pirate 244 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: code to be, a few examples from it. Anyone caught 245 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: giving commands on his own or disobeying those of a 246 00:13:54,720 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 1: superior was to be immediately decapitated, no flogging, no warning, 247 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: or something immediately off with their heads. Yeah, and a 248 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: pirate who went ashore without permission would have his ear 249 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 1: slit doing it again meant certain death. And pilfering from 250 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: the common treasury was also frowned upon, as was stealing 251 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: from villagers who were on the pirates side, you know 252 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: who who supplied them, uh, had worked out some sort 253 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: of arrangement with the pirates. Those were capital offenses. Yeah, 254 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: and interestingly, if a pirate raped a female captive, he 255 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: was put to death. And you know this goes back 256 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: to your saying you imagine pirates that they're just all 257 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: really rough mannered and they you expect for things to 258 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: go on like that, raping and so forth, But nope, 259 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: that was not allowed. And even if they had sex 260 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: by mutual consent, the man was beheaded and the woman 261 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: was cast overboard with a weight attached to her legs. 262 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: So low tolerance for any sort of funny business, definitely. 263 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: And we should mention the concubines and the wives and 264 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: and the women they captured a little more too, especially 265 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: because we are talking about a woman pirate. But usually 266 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: pirates would take the most beautiful captives as their concubines 267 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: or wives, and the less pretty ones would be returned 268 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: to the shore, and others might be ransomed if they 269 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: had some kind of good family connections. And if a 270 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: pirate chose a wife from one of the captives, he 271 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: was supposed to be loyal to her. And I mean 272 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,359 Speaker 1: that's another surprise. These pirates are just like loaded with surprises, 273 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: like these boats coming out of nowhere. Um, it's interesting 274 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: that promiscuity was not encouraged, it was not even allowed. Yeah, 275 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: it makes me wonder. And I wasn't able to find 276 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: too much on this, but whether Madam Chung herself was 277 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: holding fidelity in such high esteem or if it was 278 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: just a pirate rule that was more ubiquitous, Yeah, that 279 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: would be interesting to find out in this situation. Male captives, 280 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: on the other hand, were kept as manpower. They weren't 281 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: really released besides the Westerners who are being held for ransom, 282 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: so they kind of became part of the pirate fold too, 283 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: although it doesn't seem like they had many rights. The 284 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: other major thing that Madam Chung did as leader was 285 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: really make piracy function as a business. So we want 286 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: to get into that a little bit, just a little 287 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: background on how the pirates need their profits in the 288 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: first place. They did so through as you would imagine, 289 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: outright piracy plundering ships for example, which Chang referred to 290 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: as the trans shipping of goods, which sounds like some 291 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: term you'd learned in the business class. It sounds like 292 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: it's supposed to be a real term, but um it 293 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: was one that she coined, I think. And she also 294 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: ransom prisoners, so that's how they made a little bit 295 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: of money. They would capture westerners off of the East 296 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: India Company ships, for example. An officer on such a ship, 297 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: Richard Glasspool, was one of them, and it's through his 298 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: diary and through the diaries of other people like him, 299 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: that we actually have records of how these Chinese pirates lived. 300 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's the outright piracy side of the business. 301 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: But there was also some other other deals going on, um, 302 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: other hustles. Madam Chung had a massive protection racket where 303 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: she sold quote safe passage protection on land and by sea. 304 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: So basically, we the pirates won't mass with you if 305 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: you if you pay us a certain amount of money. 306 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: And Glasspool recounts being on one of these fee collecting 307 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: missions in eighteen o nine when the pirates took in 308 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: five hundred junks and sailed up the Pearl River anchored 309 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: by a village and basically threatened to burn down the 310 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: town and murder all of its inhabitants unless they agreed 311 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: to pay a fee. And this is a little funny, 312 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: a fee of six thousand dollars. Yeah, we're not really 313 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 1: sure what currency he's referring to at the time eighteen 314 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: o nine. Um, and he was a captive at this time, 315 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 1: so I'm not really sure how he got the exact 316 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: figures of the agreement. You know that he was forced 317 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: to participate in this, but um, he that's the figure 318 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: he threw out there. Um, But I mean it gives 319 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: us an idea at least of of these rackets that 320 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: they would pull, not actually doing the burning and pillaging, 321 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: but threatening to do so. Yeah, that's some protection, right, Yeah, 322 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: thank you for not burning it down or else. So, 323 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: because the pirates operated on such a large scale, Madam 324 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 1: Chung required written records of everything. All of their loot 325 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: that they got was entered into a warehouse register by 326 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 1: the pirates purser. So here were some rules. No pirate 327 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: could retain anything without submitting it for inspection. So you 328 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: couldn't just go plunder some ship and then shove stuff 329 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: in your poet in your own chest, right, you had 330 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: to submit it and have it reviewed, declare it essentially, 331 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 1: and then about of that went to the original captor 332 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: and the rest was put into a public fund. After that, 333 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: any pirate who wanted to withdraw from the common fund 334 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: made a written application to the secretary of the storehouse, 335 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: who was known as the ink and writing Master. So 336 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: it was very business like. Yeah, and you can imagine 337 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: that would be for boat repairs or maybe if you 338 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: hadn't brought in any loot for a while and you 339 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: still needed to keep basic operations going. Yeah, that was 340 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: what the public fund was used for. I think everything 341 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: that didn't go to the captors. It was sort of 342 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 1: spread out among the people who maybe hadn't plundered a 343 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: ship recently. I mean, I think that's really interesting. And 344 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: again it doesn't quite fit with how we think of pirates, 345 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: but it all seems very civilized, and I guess that's 346 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: why it doesn't. It doesn't add up exactly in our 347 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: in our own viewing the pirates. But I don't think 348 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: it's too businesslike either. There's still plenty that's that's bloody. 349 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: There's still plenty of carnage and glasspool. For instance, we 350 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: just mentioned him. He recalls seeing entire villages destroyed and men, 351 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: women and children mascred. Um. Madam Chung certainly didn't shy 352 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: away from that kind of thing. No, she didn't at all. 353 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,959 Speaker 1: And fact it said that she paid her pirates cash 354 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 1: for each head that they brought back from any of 355 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: their assaults. So you could find these pirates fighting with 356 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: as many as five or six bloody heads thrown over 357 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: their shoulders, tied together by their hair. Yeah, that's that's 358 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: an image kind of thinking of onions or something, but bloodier. Um. 359 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: But I mean, she definitely had effective methods that that 360 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: was an effective program for the pirates. Yeah, I would 361 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: say so. At the height of her reign on the 362 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: South China Sea in eighteen o nine, she controlled about 363 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: two thousand ships and more than eighty thousand people. So 364 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: this a lot of people say, this makes her perhaps 365 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: the greatest pirate of all time by the numbers at least. Yeah, 366 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: And that kind of greatness, of course, does attract the 367 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: attention of the law, including the Chinese government, who wanted 368 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: to hunt Chung down and and put a stop to 369 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: her operation. And they try several times to stage carefully 370 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 1: planned attacks, and they just couldn't make a dent on 371 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: Chung's forces because there were so many of them, and 372 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: they were well organized, and they were sneaky and hard 373 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,959 Speaker 1: to find. Yeah. So then the emperor, the Chinese emperor 374 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: had to change his too, and it was basically a 375 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: shift from we want to get you too, Okay, if 376 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: we can't beat them, then you guys join us. So 377 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: they started offering the pirates amnesty instead of trying to 378 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: just get them out right. There are settlements that they 379 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: offered included a pardon, cash, and land. So this started 380 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: to custom dissension among the pirates. A lot of them 381 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: wanted to take the offer and started surrendering. Even Chong 382 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: Poo wanted to and eventually Chung Ethal comes around to 383 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: the idea too. She saw the advantages of surrender and 384 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: so finally she relented. On April eighteenth, eighteen ten, she 385 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: went with a delegation, totally unarmed, delegation of seventeen women 386 00:21:54,960 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: and children to see the Governor General of Canton and negotiate, 387 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: and a few days later the surrender happened, and the 388 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: term she got were extraordinary. You think, at best she'd 389 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: be allowed to to live freely or something, or maybe 390 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: get to keep a tiny little bit of her money, 391 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: but she does quite well for herself. They get to 392 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: keep several of their junks, and they got a large 393 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: sum of money too. And now several pirates were actually 394 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: made legitimate and allowed to join the army. But Chung 395 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: Po was actually given the rank of lieutenant, and he 396 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: ends up having this illustrious military career in China after that, 397 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: rising to the post of colonel. He dies in eighteen 398 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: twenty two at the age of thirty six, reportedly of 399 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: natural causes, but this was really considered this great meteoric 400 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: rise for someone who started out as a fisherman's son, 401 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: and really twice because he rose up the ranks as 402 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: a pirate and then he came out as a civilian 403 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: and rose at the ranks as a military guy. Totally legit. 404 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: And Madam Chung did pretty well for herself too. She 405 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: spent the rest of her years in Canton, quote, leading 406 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: a peaceful life so far as was consistent with the 407 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: keeping of an infamous gambling house. So I mean, how 408 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: appropriate is that. Yeah, she's still a bad girl. What 409 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: are you gonna do if you are a retired pirate 410 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: keep a house of ill repute? It makes sense. She 411 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: died in eighteen forty four at the age of sixty nine, 412 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: And um, yeah, I think that's a pretty amazing pirate story. 413 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: They so often end in the gallows. It's it's interesting 414 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: to see one that has kind of a happy ending 415 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: for pirates. For all the decapitated people along the way, Yeah, 416 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: except for them, we feel bad for them. But for her, 417 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: she ended up in a lot a much better place 418 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: I think than other female pirates did that. Molly and 419 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: Kristen focused, like we said, on um An Bonnie and 420 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: Mary Reid, and they ended up getting captured as many 421 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 1: pirates tended to and ended up. You know, the law 422 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: caught up and caught up with them in the end. Yeah, 423 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: but I guess Madam Chung she knew when to to 424 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: get out of the pirrating business and to take the 425 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: good offer and luck with on her side. And that 426 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: brings us to a listener mail. We have a letter 427 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 1: here from Samuel in Philadelphia, and he says, Hi, Sarah Bablina, 428 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of your show and enjoy your podcasts. 429 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 1: Usually I don't have much to say, but I want 430 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,199 Speaker 1: you to reconsider your admiration for the quote. Do you 431 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: know who I am? When the Black Millionaires was stopped 432 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: by a policeman? Would you have the same admiration for 433 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: the quote if it were said by a white male millionaire. 434 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: I think that kind of attitude is actually pretty remprehensible 435 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: no matter who says it. Submitted for your reconsideration, best Sam. So, Yeah, 436 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: we thought this was very interesting. I thought this was 437 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: a really interesting letter, and it was one that I 438 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: really thought about for a long time. And I think 439 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: Sarah and I both went back to that quote and 440 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: thought about, you know, the feelings that we expressed when 441 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: we said it. And I guess I didn't really think 442 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 1: of it as admiration for what she was saying. I 443 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: think we were both just sort of marveling and impressed 444 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: to find a quote, a direct quote from this woman 445 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: who history seems to know so little about, so just 446 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: to be able to hear something in her own voice. 447 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: I think, Sarah, you put it well, and you said 448 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: it's like almost like hearing Hollywood gossips in a way 449 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: you can appealed to my my secret love for celebrity gossip. 450 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: But I mean I like the word you chose marveling too. 451 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: I mean I was kind of marveling at the situation 452 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,199 Speaker 1: because in a way it's so ironic. Of course, the 453 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: policeman knows who she is. How many female black millionairess 454 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: were They're driving around in silver plated cars at the time, 455 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: you know, I think he knew who she was already 456 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: without her having to even say anything. But just I 457 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: think it's a fascinating situation that it could even develop, 458 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: and that she'd be able to even say something like that, Yeah, 459 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: that's a great way to play it. I think we 460 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: were both rather than really admiring the words themselves, we 461 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: were both fascinated to hear her say this in nine 462 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: in the United States and a time when women like her, 463 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: Black women didn't really have much of a voice, and 464 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: she could say this, do you know who I am? 465 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: And it really meant something. So that was more how 466 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: we were coming at it, I think, and definitely not 467 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: encouraging anyone to be a jerk and try to get 468 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: out of their traffic ticket. It's funny too, because the 469 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: day we received this email, I went home and I 470 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: was watching, you know, just pudging out in front of 471 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: an episode of Sex in the City or something, and 472 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,719 Speaker 1: one of the characters said that she said, do you 473 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: know who I am? You know, fancy rich New York lady, 474 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: And I thought, oh, well, I can totally see how 475 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: that is just reprehensible. Yeah. Well, anyways, thank you for 476 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: giving us something to mull over for a bit. It's 477 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 1: always fun too to look back on an episode and 478 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: and think about what you said a little more carefully, 479 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: and and think about what the first black millionaires said too, 480 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: because it is an interesting quote anyway you look at it. Definitely, 481 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: thank you for the letter. If you want to send 482 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: us more email, give us more stuff to think about, 483 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,959 Speaker 1: and send us your ideas maybe send us your favorite 484 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: pirates story to go along with today's episode. 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