1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: Hi, it's Jorge and Daniel here. And this holiday season, 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: if you're looking for a gift for yourself, for a friend, 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: or for your your family, why not get him the 4 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: gift of Answers about the Universe. So check out our 5 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: new book Frequently Ask Questions about the Universe. You can 6 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: find details at universe f a q dot com. Thanks 7 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: for supporting the podcast. Happy holidays everyone. How much have 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: you thought about what it might be like to talk 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: to aliens? While biologists wonder about what form alien life 10 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: might take, linguists speculate about how we might communicate with them, 11 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: and conspiracy theorists wonder whether aliens have already visited Earth 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: and taken over our government. Physicists have long expressed confidence 13 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: that they could most easily find common ground with aliens, 14 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: assuming that math and physics are universal, not specific to 15 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: Earth biology. Even more than that, physicists practically salivate at 16 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: the prospect of learning from aliens answers to big questions 17 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: in physics, how to bend space and time, or crack 18 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: open black holes and play elaborate pranks on Navy pilots. 19 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: But what would it actually be like to try to 20 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: learn physics from aliens. Could we even understand the cosmic 21 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: secrets they might share with us? Would they be so 22 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: advanced it would be like Schrodinger explaining quantum mechanics to 23 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: its cat. Do we actually share math and physics with 24 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: every intelligent civilization out there? Or would their minds be 25 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: so alien it would just be impossible. Hi, I'm Daniel. 26 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: I'm a particle physicist, and I can't wait to talk 27 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: to the aliens and learn the secrets of the universe. 28 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: There are so many things we don't understand about the universe, 29 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: and if aliens visit it or managed to send us 30 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: a message, it seems likely that they might have been 31 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: working on these questions for thousands or millions, or even 32 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: billions of years. Imagine catapulting our understanding that far forward. 33 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: We might learn about how quantum mechanics really works, or 34 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: what's inside a black hole, or how the universe actually began. 35 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: But is that making a basic mistake? Assuming the humans 36 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: and aliens might think about science in the same way, 37 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: how could we possibly anticipate what aliens might know, or 38 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: think about or wonder at so Welcome to the podcast. 39 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,959 Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge explain the universe of production of I 40 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 1: Heart Media, in which we dive deep into all these 41 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: questions about the universe. We asked the biggest, the deepest, 42 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: the craziest questions, and we strain for answers, explaining to 43 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: you everything we understand and everything that we don't. My 44 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: friend and co host Jorge is on a break, but 45 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: I have a special treat for you today. We are 46 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: very lucky to have as a guest one of the 47 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: leading scholars in the field of the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. 48 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: Today we'll be talking to Jill Tarter, astronomer and longtime 49 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: chair of the SETI program, the Search for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence, 50 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: and so today on the program, we'll be asking the 51 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 1: question how should we be searching for extra terrestrial life? 52 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: So it's my great pleasure to introduce Dr Jill Tarter. 53 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 1: She's very well known for leading the SETI program for 54 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: many years and is also famous for introducing the phrase 55 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 1: brown dwarf in her pH d thesis, which she completed 56 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: at Berkeley nine. But she's also been a leading voice 57 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: in the search for extra terrestrial life and intelligence for 58 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: more than three decades and has won many awards, including 59 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: the Carl Sagan Prize for Science popularization and being elected 60 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. Dr Tarter, 61 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for joining us, Thank 62 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: you for having me. Daniel. So, I actually dug into 63 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: your thesis a little bit and I thought it was 64 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: quite fascinating. But it's well. I actually also got my 65 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: PhD from Berkeley the several years later, and I was 66 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: curious reading through it. It's not obvious the direction of 67 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: your career would take. So how did you get into 68 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: the search for extraterrestrial intelligence? Like what set you on 69 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: that course? Well, it all had to do with Berkeley 70 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: and graduate school and it was a big accident. So 71 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 1: my first year at Berkeley, I was supported on our 72 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: research assistant ship to program the first computer that we 73 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: ever had on our desktop. So it was a PDP 74 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: eight slash s now took two people to get it 75 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: on the desktop, so it wasn't that small. But the 76 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: other thing about it was that it had no language, 77 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: so you had to program the whole thing in often 78 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 1: for every instruction you wanted it to do, you had 79 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 1: to set all the ones in zeros. Kind of a 80 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: pretty arcane skill, but I found it interesting and fun, 81 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: so I did that for a year, and then I 82 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: went on to other things. Finally, many years later, when 83 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 1: I was about to finish my PhD and go off 84 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: to a post dog, Stu Bowyer, an X ray astronomer, 85 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: had a really clever idea. He'd been reading the material 86 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: that had been put out by NASA aims on the 87 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: search for life beyond Earth, and he said, you know, 88 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: UC Berkeley has a radio telescope in northern California, and 89 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: he was clever enough to know that with a radio 90 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: telescope you can make essentially a noiseless copy of the 91 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: voltage coming out of the telescope, and then on your 92 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: copy you could process it looking for engineered signals while 93 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: the astronomers went ahead and did whatever they were going 94 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 1: to do anyway, So very clever, this idea of observing commensally. 95 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: But he had no money, so he went begging for 96 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: pieces of equipment, and somebody gave him a hundred channel 97 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: p AR auto car. Later, and somebody else gave him 98 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: this old p d P A S computer. So somebody 99 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: pointed out to Stu that I used to work on 100 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: that computer, and he showed up in my office one 101 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: afternoon with a copy of the cyclops report that had 102 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: been done at NASA, Ames saying the way to find 103 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: extraterrestrial intelligence was to build an array of six hundred 104 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: meter telescopes. That never happened, but anyway, he gave me 105 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: that as a recruiting tool, and I read it and 106 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: I just got really hooked. Here I was with potentially 107 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: the right skills, in the right place, at the right 108 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,679 Speaker 1: time to perhaps make a contribution to answering this age 109 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: old question of are we alone? So I worked with 110 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: the PDP eight s again and got a program with 111 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: Stu up and running at that creek, and then, you know, 112 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: as I said, I was hooked, and I've stayed hooked 113 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: ever since. It amazes me how we sometimes see sciences 114 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: as like linear, natural, obvious progression, but so much of 115 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: it depends on random accidents. Who happens to talk to 116 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: who and be inspired by what? And if you ran 117 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: the Earth science a hundred times in, you know, with 118 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: different initial conditions, you might get completely different trajectories of intellectually, 119 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: like where we end up as a species. So you 120 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: mentioned this, the device that wasn't built. What is SETI 121 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: actually doing? What instruments are they using and operating and 122 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: what are they actually listening for right now? Well, set 123 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, which is a misnomer because 124 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: we don't know how to find intelligence, per say, we 125 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: can't even define it um. What we're doing is trying 126 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: to find evidence that somebody else is using some technology 127 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: that we can discover over the vast distances between the stars. 128 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: And so it started out as using radio telescopes to 129 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: try and find engineered signals, and then over time we 130 00:07:55,600 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: expanded it into optical searches and infrared searches, and now 131 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: we are trying to do something that we've known that 132 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: we should be doing for the past twenty years, but 133 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: just haven't had the technology to do it, and that 134 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: is to look for transient signals. And the trick there 135 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: is you want to look at all the sky, all 136 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: the time, and at as many frequencies as you possibly can. 137 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: And so now we are finally able to build starting 138 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: in the optical and then moving into the radio telescopes 139 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: that look at tens of thousands of square degrees at 140 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: a time, and in one case, if we can complete 141 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: the instrumentation, all the sky all the time looking for 142 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: these transient signals. So that's the exciting frontier for CET 143 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: today to try and get this sky coverage. And the 144 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: other exciting thing is to begin to look at the 145 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: data in a different way. Historically, we have always looked 146 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: at data and said, is there a signal of this 147 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: description in the data, And we have defined the signals 148 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: that we're interested in as being frequency compressed in the radio, 149 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: or time compressed in the optical, or monochromatic lasers in 150 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: the optical. But now we're beginning to see if we 151 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: can use machine learning to help us find patterns of 152 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: any kind in the data without having to pre describe 153 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 1: what pattern we're looking for. So we're hoping that algorithms 154 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: in the future will be able to look at data 155 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: voltage is a function of time, intensity is a function 156 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: of time and say there's information content here, or no, 157 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,199 Speaker 1: this is all noise. That's fascinating. If we need artificial 158 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: intelligence to recognize alien intelligence, well that alien intelligence is 159 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: quite likely to be artificial itself by machines, So maybe 160 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: we need machines as interpreters. But still we need to 161 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 1: somehow train that machine learning. We need to teach it 162 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: the kind of things that we are looking for. We 163 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: can't just we're not raising generic intelligence and say go 164 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: out and find some aliens, right, doesn't there need to 165 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: be some fought in advance for the kinds of things 166 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: we're teaching our machine learning algorithms to find. Well, actually, 167 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 1: the real problem is how do you get a null set? 168 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: How do you give it data that you know has 169 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: no information content. You know, when you have a data 170 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: set and we've explored it for X, Y and Z, 171 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that Q isn't there. So generally to 172 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: get a null set you generated randomly on a computer, 173 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: and then you can give it lots of examples of 174 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: different signals that we have detected or that we generate 175 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: ourselves as the counter. And again it's early days. We're 176 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: very hopeful and we'll see what happens. Right. I suppose 177 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: you can't just take the ABC from the sky and 178 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: say assume there's nothing here, because the whole point is 179 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: to look for data in the sky, so then it 180 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: would learn to ignore signalities there. So you mentioned something fascinating, 181 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: which is thinking about the messages that we would send 182 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: or the ones that we have sent, and know that 183 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: in the early days of space exploration, you know, for example, 184 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 1: there's a Golden Record. We put on some of our probes, 185 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: and there's a message we sent out via a Recibo. 186 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: How do you look at those messages that we've sent 187 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: sort of with modern eyes, How would you design a 188 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: message to generic aliens now you hope would be observable 189 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: and detectable to the broadest set of intelligence. Well, I 190 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: do something that we haven't done with the Acibo message 191 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: or any of the other messages that we've transmitted, and 192 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: that is I would do it for ten thousand years, 193 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 1: all right. If you send a finite transmission, then that 194 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: message is going to go past your target in a 195 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: finite amount of time, and the receivers would have to 196 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 1: be looking at you at just the right time, in 197 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: just the right way as your message flies past in 198 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 1: order to detect it. And the probability of that is 199 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: pretty small. So I think what you want to do 200 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: is start transmitting and then don't stop right so that 201 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: whenever an emerging technology wakes up and begins to explore 202 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: its environment, your signal will be there for them to 203 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: find when and if they develop the right technologies and 204 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: the right strategy and are motivated to be looking. So 205 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: that's I think what I would do. And the reason 206 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 1: that I'm not at all enamored of efforts to transmit 207 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: messages today because we're just not grown up enough to 208 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: be able to culturally be able to manage such a 209 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: long term project. It's like just shouting once in the 210 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: night and hoping that somebody hears. You know, it's fascinating 211 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: as our message sort of sweeps across the universe. It's 212 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: always somewhere, but the chances that it happens to arrive 213 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: when some he's listening do seem pretty small. Do you 214 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: think that's something our civilization would ever be capable of 215 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: sending messages for tens of thousands of years? Do you 216 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: think our civilization will last long enough to be able 217 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: to do that? I hope so. And in fact, one 218 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: of the things that I think about is that suppose 219 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: the distribution of lifetimes of technological civilizations or technologies, because 220 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: that's what we're going to find is the technology is bimodal, 221 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 1: So you have lots of short lived technologies. They emerge, 222 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: develop an either turn themselves off or do themselves in. 223 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: They don't have a very long lifetime when compared to 224 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: the ten billion year history of the Milky Way, galaxy. 225 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: But now there might be an addition, some very long 226 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: lived civilizations, And it might be that the probability of 227 00:13:54,280 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: transitioning from short lived technology to a long lived technology 228 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: is dependent on discovering other technological civilizations that have made 229 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: it to an old age. And I think that's one 230 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: of the things that today motivates me to continue working 231 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: on this project. How can we have a long future 232 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: for life on this planet? And if so, how and 233 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: that the answer to me is if anybody else has 234 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: made it through, that means we can figure it out too. 235 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: Are you suggesting that discovering a longstanding alien civilization might 236 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: help us build a civilization that's long standing just knowing 237 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: that it's possible. I think that's not unlikely or not impossible. 238 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: If I know that there's a solution to a problem, 239 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: even if I can't figure it out right now, I 240 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: have more motivation to figure out the solution. I know 241 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: it's possible, So how the heck am I going to 242 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: solve it? That's very insporational. I hope that's true. In 243 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: all of these searches were looking for signals, signals generated 244 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: by technologies which in the end are somewhat similar to ours. 245 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: And there seems to be an implicit assumption there that 246 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: you know their information, their messages will be encoded in 247 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: ways that are familiar to us, even if the actual 248 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: code is alien. The fact that they are sending messages 249 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: coded in electromagnetic radiation of some kind assumes that you 250 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: know the civilization is mathematical or scientific. Do you think 251 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: that it's possible for us to imagine aliens in a 252 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: more broad sense, you know, to think about aliens that 253 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: might not do math or might not have a scientific exploration, 254 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: or do you think that we can only search for 255 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: aliens that are sort of similar to us intellectually that 256 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: we could ever communicate with them. Well, they're kind of 257 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: two pieces to that question. One, we have a certain 258 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: amount of technology in the twenty one century, and we 259 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: understand a certain subset of physics, and those are the 260 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: tools we have. We can't use tools that we don't have. 261 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: We can't search for things that we don't yet understand. 262 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: And in terms of another technology, we're actually trying to 263 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: think more broadly than we originally did, So not just 264 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: radio signals or not just optical signals, but something that 265 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: we call a techno signature, something that is the result 266 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: of someone doing something with technology out there. And it's 267 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: particularly important to think about that now because we're moving 268 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: from the generation of ten class optical instruments and a 269 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: hundred elements in inferometers two thirty forty telescopes and interferometers 270 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: like near Cat the square kilometer array that are going 271 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: to have thousands of elements. So our ability to see 272 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: things on the sky is going to improve dramatically, and 273 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: we want to be thinking about, oh, what's that and 274 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: how the what's that might be interpreted in terms of technology, 275 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: So we're thinking about signals that are almost natural or 276 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: things that are obviously engineered. And obviously engineered has been 277 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: the piece that we've been doing us far. But when 278 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: you begin to think about almost natural, you think about 279 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: maybe a pulsar, right, which has a period it's very constant, 280 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: and then it changes its period. Now we've seen that 281 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: in the data because there are star quakes on these 282 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: neutron stars have changed the moment of inertia and change 283 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 1: the period of the pulse sar. But what we haven't 284 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 1: seen is a pulsar that starts at one period, changes 285 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: to a second period, and then goes back to the 286 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: first period. But those could well be in our data 287 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: sets as we searched the sky for pulsars, So it's 288 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: almost natural, and we would catch it in a net 289 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: when we're doing an astronomy survey. So another example I 290 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: like to think about is transit. So we've been finding 291 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: all these exoplanets because they cast a shadow on the 292 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: image of the star and change the stellar luminosity as 293 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: the planet transits in front of the star. Now, the 294 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: i AU has declared that planets are spherical, right, and 295 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 1: so their shadows are going to be circular. But what 296 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: about some giant constructed artifact that's like a Venetian blind 297 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: or a triangle. Well, in the higher order moments of 298 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 1: the light curve at ingress and egress, you could tell 299 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: the difference if you looked hard enough, between a triangular 300 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 1: shadow and a circular shadow. So that might be an 301 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: almost natural signal that would in fact ultimately lead us 302 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: to technology. Wow. Fascinating. So we have a whole spectrum 303 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: of things which we classify as natural because we think 304 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: they're not the product of intelligent action. Things are clearly artificial, 305 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: like the signal that says hello, we got your air 306 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: cebra message. Here's our address, and now you're imagining things 307 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: in between, which are subtle evidence of deviations from sort 308 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: of natural evolution of the universe because of intelligent actions. 309 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: You know, we're going to have so many new and 310 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 1: different eyes on the cosmos that we ought to be 311 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: broadening our thinking. That's fascinating and it seems like a 312 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: very worthwhile It still seems to me to be indicative 313 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: of sort of the way that our minds work. You know, 314 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: we build things that are square, and we build things 315 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 1: that are symmetric, and we're imagining that maybe aliens could 316 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: do that as well. And I certainly take your point 317 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: that we can't look for things that we don't understand, 318 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 1: and we can't look for things that we can't imagine. 319 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: Does that frustrate you that you know that might be 320 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: that the spectrum of intelligence aliens out there could be 321 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: so much broader than we can imagine that it might 322 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: make it impossible to ever discover them. Yeah. Well, for 323 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: the longest time, we said, okay, if they have some 324 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 1: technology that we might be able to detect in some fashion, 325 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,959 Speaker 1: they're going to have to have math, right, can't build 326 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: things without some artificial way to represent them and construct them, 327 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: And so we thought, okay, so that means math is 328 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: the universal language of the cosmos. And then we had 329 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: some really interesting talks at the Cutty Institute by people 330 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: who study the human brain, and they pointed out that, yeah, 331 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: they might well have math and be representing exactly the 332 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: same things that are mathematical programs do, but that our 333 00:20:54,720 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: math and the way we represent things is inevitably shape 334 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: by the nature and structure of our human brain. And 335 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: so they might well be talking about exactly the same thing, 336 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: the same mathematics, but the representation of it might be 337 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: so different that we don't recognize it as such. So 338 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: now that's so are right now. And if you look 339 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: back at the sort of history of the development of 340 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: mathematics and the philosophy of mathematics, you know there are 341 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: still like big open questions about how to even build 342 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: a mathematical system that's self consistent, and a lot of 343 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: mathematicians practicing mathematicians sort of ignore that and say, look, 344 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:37,479 Speaker 1: we have a system that mostly works. We can get 345 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: stuff done. But it tells you that if human history 346 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: had gone another way, if a different philosopher had been 347 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: born or been influential, we might all think very differently mathematically, 348 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: And so the spectrum of like possible human explorations of 349 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: you know, ways to think is so potentially broad, and 350 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: it's sort of terrifying to imagine how broad it might 351 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: be when you're including, yeah, well there are anthropologists who 352 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: tell us that there are some very isolated tribal groups 353 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: that don't have a zero in their worldview. So you 354 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: can do what you can do, and you can't do 355 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: what you can't yet do. So you've been working on 356 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: this for a while. How long do you expect that 357 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: this project might take? I mean when LEGO turned on, 358 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: for example, I remember thinking, well, they have no idea 359 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: how common gravitational waves are, and they had no clue 360 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: whether they would wait decades for the first signal, And 361 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: of course they were lucky they heard something almost immediately, 362 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 1: and it's been a treasure trove. Do you harbor such 363 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: hopes that, you know, if we expand our capabilities to 364 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: listen to the sky, that we might learn something too. 365 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: I don't know about soon. I think this could well 366 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: be a multi generation all exploration. And the reason I 367 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: say that is that the volume that might need to 368 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: be searched, even if an electromagnetic signal is the right 369 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,719 Speaker 1: thing to be looking for. That volume is really vast, 370 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: and so when c turned fifty, I tried to do 371 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 1: calculation that would show how vast it was and how 372 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: much we had searched to date for an electromagnetic signal. Again, 373 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: assuming that's the right thing to be looking for, there 374 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: are nine different parameters that you have to explore space 375 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:41,239 Speaker 1: and time and polarization and modulation and intensity, all of us. 376 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: And so I tried to make a guess at what 377 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: the range of each of those parameters might be, and 378 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: then I multiplied them all together some sort of a 379 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: nine dimensional volume. And I'm not any good at visualizing 380 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: nine dimensional volumes. So I said, okay, here's the analogy 381 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,479 Speaker 1: that volume. I'm going to set it equal to the 382 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: volume of all the Earth's oceans and then ask how 383 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: much of the Earth's oceans have we searched in fifty years. 384 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: And at that time the answer was one glass of 385 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: water out of the ocean. Right. That shows you how 386 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: vast the search might need to be. And then when 387 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: city turned sixty, ten years later, the students at Penn State, 388 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,880 Speaker 1: we did the calculation and they said, it's not a glass, 389 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: it's more like a small swimming pool, so that was 390 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: a big improvement over ten years, but still not a 391 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 1: lot of the oceans. So I think that it might 392 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: be multi generational, either because we haven't yet invented the 393 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 1: right technology, we don't understand the physics that's involved, or 394 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: simply because the search is so vast it's going to 395 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: take a while. It's getting faster all the time, primarily 396 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: because of Moore's law and the improvements in our computational capabilities, 397 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: but it may have to go on for a while. 398 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: The exciting thing for me about research like that is 399 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: that you just don't know until you begin if you're 400 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: searching for a signal which is obvious or really subtle. 401 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: Like in your ocean analogy, you only need a glass 402 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: of water to find salt, right, but if you're looking 403 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: for a particular fish, you may have to look through 404 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: millions and millions of glasses. And in our case, we 405 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,719 Speaker 1: just don't know right how many civilizations are out there 406 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 1: they're super rare, or if they're everywhere. So have your 407 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: hope sort of changed over the years that when you 408 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: first got involved in this, in your that first project 409 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: you described using the PDP, did you think I might 410 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: discover aliens tomorrow. If your hopes sort of kept up 411 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: or have they dimmed over the decades, well that's still true. 412 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: We could discover something tomorrow, or it might be my 413 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: granddaughter's generation that succeeds. We don't know, And this is 414 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,959 Speaker 1: one of those questions that you don't know the answer 415 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: until you find the answer. And if anybody you know, 416 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,120 Speaker 1: if I told you anything different, right, that would be 417 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: religion and not science. So no one knows. I still 418 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: think it's worthwhile. Humans have been asking themselves this question 419 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 1: since we walked out of the caves. We're really intrigued 420 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: with how we fit into the cosmos, how we compare 421 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: something else that might be out there. So every day 422 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: you're looking at information could be the day that you 423 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: get the signal that says wow. And now, like human 424 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: history pivots on that point, before that moment and after 425 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: that moment. So in your career or in the decades 426 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: of that we've been doing this, have there been any 427 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,719 Speaker 1: moments when you thought to yourself, this could be any 428 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 1: sort of like, oh, this looks real kind of moments. Yeah, 429 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: there have been a few, and they've all turned out 430 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: to be false positives. But some of them took a 431 00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: lot longer to dismiss than others. Let's see, we usually 432 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: observe with two widely spaced telescopes, and we require that 433 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: the signal be found at both and that it had 434 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: the appropriate light travel time between them, and that it 435 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: have if it's a narrowband signal, we can require that 436 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: it have a differential Doppler signature that represents the Earth's rotation. Right, 437 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: So we have all these tests that we need to do. 438 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: But back in nineteen I think it was, we were 439 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: using a telescope in green Banquest, Virginia and another one 440 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: in Woodbury, Georgia, and lightning struck the telescope in Georgia 441 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: and went through the electronics and frieda district, so that 442 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: telescope was off the air for days before FedEx could 443 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: get a new dis drive into the facility. But we 444 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: still had time. And that's of course a very racious 445 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: thing on the telescope in green Bank, West Virginia. So 446 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: we kept observing with that one telescope in a manner 447 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,679 Speaker 1: that radio astronomers have often used. They stare at a 448 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 1: target source and then they look away, and then they 449 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: go back and they differentiate between the on and the 450 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: off source. So we we tried that with the Green 451 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: Bank telescope and sort of like five o'clock in the morning, 452 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: I saw a signal that was clearly artificial. Looked in 453 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: this waterfall plot, as we call it, like a picket fence. 454 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: So I saw multiple frequencies lit up, and the spacing 455 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: between those frequency features was constant. That's not another nature. 456 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: And so I saw this every time I looked at 457 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: the target that we were tracking, and every time we 458 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: pointed the telescope away from that target, it went away. 459 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: And this went on for a while, and then I 460 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: finally got clever idea. I said, okay, we've been observing 461 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: here for a couple of weeks. Let me look through 462 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: all the data that we have taken when looking at 463 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: other parts of the sky and see if we've ever 464 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: seen a signal that has that frequency spacing. Right, that's 465 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: a very significant characteristic. And so I wrote a program 466 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: and it actually compiled me and I ran it, but 467 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: I was in I was excited. I mean I was 468 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: really excited, and so I was sloppy with my output, 469 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: and when I looked at the output, I actually missed 470 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: the fact that, yes, we've seen that particular signature when 471 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: looking in other places on the sky, but you know, 472 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: being excited and I dismissed it. So we continued tracking 473 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: that and I woke up my colleagues, got them to help, 474 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: and finally, as the source set in the west, the 475 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: change in the drift rate that changed with frequency and 476 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: time of the signal was consistent with something that was 477 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: rising to the zenith, not setting on the horizon, and 478 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: so sadly, by the end of the afternoon we knew 479 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: that this wasn't a real extraterrestrial signal. We didn't know 480 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: what it was. It took a while of doing web 481 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: searches and it turned out it was the Soho spacecraft 482 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: in orbit, not around the Earth we would have caught 483 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: that much earlier, but around the sun. And telescopes, like 484 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: human eyes, which have peripheral vision, telescopes have sidelobes where 485 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: the sensitivity is much lower, but it's not zero, And 486 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: so every time I pointed at the target, the Sun 487 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: would be in the sidelo, and when I moved the 488 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: telescope to the different direction, the sun fell out of 489 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: that silo and the sun tracked the Earth's rotation just 490 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: as the target ten, and so it took us a 491 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: while to figure that one out, but it was exciting. 492 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: It was really an enormous amount of adrenaline, and then 493 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: disappointing when we figured it out and we figured out 494 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: a couple of different ways to avoid having that happened 495 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,239 Speaker 1: to us again well as a fascinating moment, because on 496 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: one hand, you desperately want to believe it's sort of 497 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,239 Speaker 1: your scientific fantasy. On the other hand, you want to 498 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: push on it as hard as possible because you definitely 499 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: don't want to announce something if it's not real, and 500 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: so you have to be like the biggest cheerleader and 501 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: also be the biggest skeptic at the same time. Yeah, 502 00:31:48,200 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: make me a liar exactly. So what would happen and 503 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: walk us through what would happen if you got a 504 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: signal and you were not able to identify as coming 505 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: from any satellite or any nearby object, and all the 506 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: evidence pointed to it coming from another star and it 507 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: seemed sincerely artificial. Is there you know, a real protocol 508 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: sort of politically for what happens in that scenario? Do 509 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: you have to contact US government or are you're allowed 510 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: to talk to scientists from other countries about it. Well, 511 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: when we were ann asked the project, Yeah, there was 512 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: a protocol and it included which associate administrator was going 513 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 1: to notify in the White House, right, and it was 514 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: that detail. Now that we are philanthropically privately funded and 515 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: the other SETI projects like break through Lists and are 516 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: also privately funded, there is a protocol that we've informally 517 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: agreed upon. It has no enforceability, but basically it says, 518 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: at the discovery site, you try and use another instrument 519 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: now that you know what you're looking for. Probably a 520 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: normal off the shelf Hewlett Packard spectrometer will allow you 521 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: to find that signal. So you try and just detected 522 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: with instrumentation that you didn't build and software that you 523 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: didn't write as a confirmation. And then if you do 524 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,719 Speaker 1: that and you have some more confidence, then indeed you 525 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: do quietly call up the director of some observatory to 526 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: the west and ask for a little bit of discretionary 527 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: time to see, knowing what they're looking for, if they 528 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: can detect the signal, and that's probably your best hedge 529 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: against a hoax and deliberate hopes. And then if you 530 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: get that independent confirmation, then you sit down and figure 531 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: out how you're going to tell the world. And one 532 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: of the things that you might consider doing is sending 533 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: out what used to be called an I A U telegraph, 534 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: something that goes to all the observatories around the world, 535 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: discreetly telling them what you've found and prepping them for 536 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: the fact that there will be a press conference coming 537 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: up very quickly, because what you want to do is 538 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: train up a bunch of professionals who can interpret for 539 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: their local media what's actually been found, and not leave 540 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: the media to make it up for themselves, right, because 541 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: it's probably going to be maybe ambiguous, right, and you 542 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: don't want the media writing their own story, so you'd 543 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: like to give them as much assistance in understanding what's 544 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: really been discovered. And then you tell the world, and 545 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: you want to be very careful that you make sure 546 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: that everyone who's been involved in any way gets appropriate credit. 547 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: Then you hope that the network at the study institute 548 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: or wherever the discovery site is doesn't melt from the 549 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 1: world trying to get hold of you, and you see 550 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,760 Speaker 1: what happens. So walk through a hypothetical best case scenario. 551 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 1: Say we see an artificial signal and other people confirm it, 552 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: and we believe that it's there, then what do we do? 553 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: Do we respond? Do you write a message back and 554 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 1: you spend a decade trying to decode it, understand the 555 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: contents of it, and debate how to respond. Did we 556 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 1: spend you know, a hundred years going back and forth 557 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: before we learn each other's language and understand each other's mathematics. Oh, 558 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: we've thought about it, and we've held workshops and basically, 559 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: should we respond? And if so, who will speak for Earth? 560 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: And what will they say? And I think the disappointing 561 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: thing for me at the moment is so we've held 562 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: a number of workshops, they haven't really involved very much 563 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: of the world's diverse cultures. It's been sort of pretty 564 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: waspy and pretty male. So we continue to think about this, 565 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: and I continue to try and find a way two 566 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: take this question globally and find appropriate venues to ask 567 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: other cultures in other ways of being and thinking what 568 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: they would do, how they feel. So it's a work 569 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: in progress. You know. Freeman Dyson and here's a lot 570 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: would listen to me talking this is a very very 571 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:22,799 Speaker 1: highbrow approach to doing things. He would just chuckle and 572 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: he'd say, come on, Jill, if you ever make such 573 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: an announcement, anybody anywhere on the planet that has access 574 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: to a transmit will grab that transmitter and start saying 575 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 1: whatever the hell they please. And then he, you know, 576 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,879 Speaker 1: with a twinkle in his eye, and said, wouldn't that 577 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: cacophony be about the best representation of the Earth today 578 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,320 Speaker 1: that we could make? That sounds like broadcasting Internet comment 579 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:54,320 Speaker 1: sections up to aliens essentially. So the thing that's exciting 580 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: but also frustrating to me is that there's so much information, 581 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: you know, impacting the Earth, so much electromagnetic radiation and 582 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: particle radiation that we're just not gathering. When you talk 583 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: about like seeing the whole sky, the information from an 584 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,479 Speaker 1: alien species, from an extra trust intelligence could be hitting 585 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 1: the Earth like right now at this moment and just 586 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: be you know, absorbed by rocks and concrete and Walmart 587 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,399 Speaker 1: parking lots, etcetera. So I wonder, what would you do 588 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: if you were given you a billion dollar or ten 589 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,879 Speaker 1: billion dollar or an unlimited budget, would be your sort 590 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 1: of fantasy detector or observatory to accomplish this task. We 591 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: thought about that, and because we can't promise results, because 592 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: we can't say that we're even looking in the right 593 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: way right and maybe we should be looking for zeta raise, 594 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: except we don't know what zata as are. I would 595 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: put that big chunk of money in an endowment, and 596 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 1: I would live off the interest from that endowment to 597 00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: allow for a multi generational x lauration, an opportunity in 598 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: the future to employ technologies that we don't have today. 599 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: That would be my approach to it. There's certainly lots 600 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: of things that we would like to build, and we're 601 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: in the process of building some. And we're also getting 602 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: better at this concept of commensal observing. So in the radio, 603 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 1: for example, the very large array in Squarana, Mexico is 604 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: probably the most productive radio telescope that we have distrits. 605 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 1: So one of the people at the SETI Institute, andrewson 606 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: Ian and his team are figuring out a way to 607 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 1: get the voltage out of all of those antennas and 608 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: build uh commence a program for that, and they'll take 609 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: that and they'll apply it in the future to the 610 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: square kilometer array in South Africa. So there are new 611 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: things we'd like to build. We've got is error of 612 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: going from I think I already mentioned the ten class 613 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 1: optical telescopes to thirty and forty telescopes, and the large 614 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: Synoptic survey telescope looking at all the sky every few days. 615 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: We need to figure out how we can piggyback on those, 616 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: how we can find things in those data that makes 617 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: people go, huh, what's that. So there's a lot of 618 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 1: things coming up neutrino detectors, there have been some suggestions 619 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 1: of how information transferred with neutrinos could impact other parameters 620 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 1: that are easier to detect than the neutrinos themselves. So 621 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: I'd like to continue pushing all of those things, looking 622 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: at the universe in new ways, looking at archival data 623 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 1: for things like I think I already explained these almost 624 00:39:56,040 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: natural signals, and just keep in mind that the conclusion 625 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 1: that we are alone is so significant that it really 626 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 1: does require a systematic and very thorough exploration of the 627 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: cosmos before you're willing to make that conclusion. So, yeah, 628 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:23,319 Speaker 1: give me a lot of money. I'll put in an 629 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: endowment a little of the interest and do lots of 630 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 1: interesting new things along the way. I'm sure. Well, if 631 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,359 Speaker 1: I was a zillionaire, I would definitely write a big 632 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: check to set. So thinking about you know, our real universe, 633 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: of course, is absolutely fascinating. But there's a lot of 634 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: exploration of this topic in science fiction. And so if 635 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: I could ask you, what is your sort of favorite 636 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: depiction of extraterrestrial contact in movies or in a book, 637 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: your your favorite fictional depiction. Well, Contacted a really great job, 638 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: right because it was written by Carl Sagan, who knew 639 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: the business. I really liked The Arrival because of the 640 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: concept that if you're going to write in circles, you 641 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: need to know the future. I thought that was an 642 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 1: intriguing concept. And of course everybody is now remembering Rendezvous 643 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: with Rama given the passage of the Muamua through our 644 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: solar system. There's another part that I love. It's called 645 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: Door in Just Summer, and the hero in the book 646 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: lived in this drafty old cottage and it rained a lot, 647 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,839 Speaker 1: and he had a cat named Patronius, and the cat 648 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,759 Speaker 1: kept going to door after door after door, figuring that 649 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,320 Speaker 1: one of those doors is going to open onto sunshine 650 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 1: rather than rain. So I have a cat named patrons wonderful. Well, 651 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:44,840 Speaker 1: thanks very much for taking the time to talk to 652 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 1: us about how humanity is searching for extraterrestrial intelligence, what 653 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: we can do and what we are doing in the future. 654 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 1: I hope that the project does continue for another ten 655 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 1: thousand years, and that we managed to put ourselves out 656 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: there and speak to the cosmos and let them know 657 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: that we're here now. Danny, thank you for this opportunity 658 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: to talk to people, because I think it's really important. 659 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: I mean, set He is sometimes seen as unimportant and 660 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:13,480 Speaker 1: fringe and not having any real tangible value, but I 661 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 1: disagree with that. I think that if we get to 662 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 1: talk to people and have them think about life evolving 663 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: somewhere else, it's like holding up a mirror to the 664 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 1: planet Earth and saying, hey, you, all of you. You 665 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,839 Speaker 1: are all the same when compared to something else that 666 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 1: might have evolved on a planet around another star. And 667 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 1: it's important to get that concept across because we face 668 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:49,840 Speaker 1: so many challenges on this planet in our future, and 669 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 1: those challenges are going to require global cooperation to find solutions. 670 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: So the more that we can make people think of 671 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: themselves as Earthlings rather than Americans, are Chinese some other thing. 672 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,319 Speaker 1: We're all the same on this point and we all 673 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:14,319 Speaker 1: have to work together. So I really think Setting has 674 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: a very practical application right now, Well, here's one thing 675 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,279 Speaker 1: who totally agrees with you. So thanks very much for 676 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,560 Speaker 1: devoting your life in your career to this vitally important project. 677 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:34,920 Speaker 1: All right, have a good day, Thanks for listening, and 678 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 1: remember that Daniel and Jorge explained The Universe is a 679 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: productional I Heart Radio More podcast for my heart Radio, 680 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,719 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio Apple podcasts, or wherever you 681 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:47,320 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite ships.