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Speaker 1: Welcome to Trains.

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Speaker 2: I'm Joel Webber and I'm Eric Belchunas.

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Speaker 1: Eric April has been a little zany markets all over

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Speaker 1: the place. Before Libration Day. You went to Vegas for

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Speaker 1: the Exchange conference. First time it's been there, and we

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Speaker 1: do a thing every time you do a little roadshow

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Speaker 1: and go to a conference like this, you speak to people,

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Speaker 1: bring a mic, get the vibes of the conference. What

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Speaker 1: was the high level takeaway from the industry.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it was great. They did

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Speaker 2: a good job. You know, it is hard to pull

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Speaker 2: off these conferences. This is my fifteenth year going Joel,

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Speaker 2: believe it or not, so I feel like I'm a

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Speaker 2: veteran status. I know. The first year I went, it

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Speaker 2: was in Hollywood, Florida, which I kind of dug. Hollywood

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Speaker 2: is like a near Fort Lauderdale. It's kind of not

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Speaker 2: a place you'd expect a big financial conference. And at

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Speaker 2: the time, I was in data and the hedge fund

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Speaker 2: analyst was going to Vegas to see salt and it's salt.

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Speaker 2: You had like these really high profile speakers like Barack

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Speaker 2: Obama and Kobe Bryant and stuff. And I remember the

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Speaker 2: first ETF event, I went to in Hollywood, Florida. There

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Speaker 2: was a YouTube cover band in ice Cream Social and

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Speaker 2: I thought, I found my people, Joel. I like that better.

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Speaker 2: So over the years we went there to Hollywood maybe

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Speaker 2: nine ten years. Then they moved to Miami for three

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Speaker 2: four years. Now they've moved to Vegas for the first year.

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Speaker 2: So at the end of the day, the ETF is

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Speaker 2: the star. The people were there. That's really ninety percent

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Speaker 2: of the battle. I also like a place where you

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Speaker 2: can wake up and take a jog in the morning

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Speaker 2: and it's warm outside this check that box. It was

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Speaker 2: a dry heat, but it got a little hot towards

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Speaker 2: the afternoon, but it was fine to me. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I'm not a huge gambler, so I was not really

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Speaker 2: moved either way. I do remember one time I walked

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Speaker 2: out downstairs at about six thirty am on Monday. That's

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Speaker 2: probably the most sober time of the week, would you agree,

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Speaker 2: And you walked through the casino and there's like n

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Speaker 2: and Elos Don't Bring Me Down is blasting, and I'm

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Speaker 2: just like, that's like a Saturday night two in the

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Speaker 2: morning song played Monday morning at six thirty am. That's

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Speaker 2: the alternative universe. I got a little dose of in

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Speaker 2: between working the hallways, but I give it good grades.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was fine and I got a lot done.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you brought your mic. We've got some highlights.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna walk me through your time in Vegas. I

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Speaker 1: am this time on Trillions Exchange. Okay, who we got first?

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Speaker 2: I figure we start on the Vegas topic, right. So

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Speaker 2: here's Todd Rosenbluth, one of the organizers of the event

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Speaker 2: from Vetaphi friend of the show. Here he is on Vegas.

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Speaker 3: I have not donated any money to the casino. I

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Speaker 3: watched Michigan win its basketball game from the sportsbook. I

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Speaker 3: might have been the only person there watching the game

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Speaker 3: that didn't have anything on theline other than passion and pride,

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Speaker 3: and Michigan won. They're in this Sweet sixteen.

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Speaker 1: Now, good for you.

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Speaker 2: First of all, Michigan has since lost. Yes, okay, there's that,

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Speaker 2: so we can all have a nice laugh about that.

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Speaker 2: But the question I asked him if he had gambled

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Speaker 2: that was if you didn't catch that?

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Speaker 1: I got it curious the vetefy, I feel like this

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Speaker 1: is a vetify exchange conference, right, So, so, how busy

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Speaker 1: was Todd while you while you were there.

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Speaker 2: There was one time, well I was on in a

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Speaker 2: podcast with him and his colleague was saying how she

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Speaker 2: wanted she had to limit the number of espressos he

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Speaker 2: had every day because he was started. So one time

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Speaker 2: I saw him walking towards me and he was just

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Speaker 2: like he was jacked wired, and I was like, no

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Speaker 2: more espressos, Todd. So, yeah, he had a lot going on.

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Speaker 2: I've been in that position. It's not easy. It's an

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Speaker 2: unsung job because people get a complain if something goes wrong,

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Speaker 2: but if everything's fine, no one says anything. So I

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Speaker 2: feel for him. He did great though. Okay, next here's

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Speaker 2: Todd also on the point of the conference of what

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Speaker 2: he's hoping to achieve.

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Speaker 3: The conference is going great. I mean we were talking

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Speaker 3: on the first full day, but Sunday was great. We

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Speaker 3: did the ETF education. Your colleague James was on with

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Speaker 3: a couple other panels, a packed room of financial advisors.

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Speaker 3: We did session just today on advisors sentiment, what advisors

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Speaker 3: told us a vertify, and then the ETF implications. There's

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Speaker 3: a lot of asset managers here, a lot of advisors here.

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Speaker 3: It's a great buzz here in Vegas.

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Speaker 1: Well, here we are in Vegas for a conference, and yeah, great,

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Speaker 1: great vibes, great vibes everywhere.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the heart of the conference started as a

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Speaker 2: way to educate advisors on ETF's. Advisors have like forty

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Speaker 2: trillion dollars. They are the biggest consumer of ETFs out there.

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Speaker 2: So the goal of the conference is to get them in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You know how you ever go to a bar and

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Speaker 2: it's like, you know, twenty dollars cover, but like ladies

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Speaker 2: get in for free.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, things like college.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that was but yeah, exactly, that's what this is. Like,

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Speaker 2: I think advisors it's a very minimal fee. The issuers

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Speaker 2: pay more, and that's the idea. So there was a

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Speaker 2: mix of advisors. James did the educational part. I usually

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Speaker 2: do it. I couldn't get there on Sunday. James Safer

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Speaker 2: James Safer and uh yeah, so that's the heart of

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Speaker 2: the conference. Okay, Next, next we have our own Katie

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Speaker 2: I Felt Oh Katielberg News all right, So here she

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Speaker 2: is on what she thought was the big topic of

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Speaker 2: the conference.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's really funny that the big story this year

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Speaker 4: seems to be what was the big story last year?

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Speaker 4: Multi share classes, and given the hype around it this year,

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Speaker 4: and I don't know, maybe we're going to get it

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Speaker 4: by the end of the third quarter or by the

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Speaker 4: end of twenty twenty five. I don't know what we

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Speaker 4: were so excited about this time last year. But it

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Speaker 4: continues to be the hot topic. And what would it

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Speaker 4: mean if a thousand or so is ETFs were introduced.

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Speaker 1: We've touched on this a couple of times, I think,

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Speaker 1: but like, is it still percolating? Is it really a

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Speaker 1: hot topic?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I would take a little issue with the

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Speaker 2: second year in a row because I thought last year

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Speaker 2: Crypto was probably superseded it, but it was on people's

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Speaker 2: minds last year. What happened was the acting chair of

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Speaker 2: the SEC before Atkins gets in, Mark Ayuda, a little

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Speaker 2: while ago, said that the ETF share classes were priority.

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Speaker 2: And the reason this is important is that think about

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Speaker 2: all the mutual funds out there right there's like seven

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Speaker 2: hundred mutual fund companies. There's like seven thousand mutual funds,

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Speaker 2: and this would allow these funds to just bolt on

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Speaker 2: an ETF share class to the actual mutual fund rather

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Speaker 2: than launching a different like clone that's an ETF so

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Speaker 2: Vanguard has this patent right now, but it the patent

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Speaker 2: was up last year, so not anybody can do it.

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Speaker 2: And we have fifty one mutual funds that have filed

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Speaker 2: to do this. And at one of the of events

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Speaker 2: early I mean one of the panels early on, I

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Speaker 2: think it was Sunday, there was a lawyer round table

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Speaker 2: and one of them said it was going to all

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Speaker 2: happen by the summer. So the idea of this was

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Speaker 2: supposed to be like, oh, in the next couple of years,

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Speaker 2: but what we're hearing is that's going to come way sooner.

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Speaker 2: So when Katie said a thousand ETF, she's not lying.

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Speaker 2: Imagine if all the mutual funds could just immediately come

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Speaker 2: up with an ETF share class you're looking at, you know,

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Speaker 2: just an avalanche of new ETFs.

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Speaker 1: Okay, she was right, it's going to be a thing.

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Speaker 1: We'll be talking about more. Okay, who do you got next?

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Speaker 2: Katie? One more time? On Vegas. I figure you'd like

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Speaker 2: to hear what she had to say about that.

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Speaker 1: It feels like there's a breach of trust here of

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Speaker 1: like what happens in Vegas days in Vegas. Well, let's

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Speaker 1: hear what she has to say.

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Speaker 2: She told me she won one hundred and sixty dollars

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Speaker 2: and then walked out of the casino, and I'm like, man,

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Speaker 2: you have no degenerate gene in you, because that's how

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Speaker 2: they get you. You win early and you're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm good at this, and then you leave with negative

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Speaker 2: six hundred like Athenasios.

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Speaker 1: Let's hear what Katie had to say.

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Speaker 4: This is not a very pedestrian friendly city, which I

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Speaker 4: don't think I was quite prepared for. I'm a big runner,

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Speaker 4: so I've been going out to run in the morning

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Speaker 4: and it just is bleak. Man, there is nowhere to run.

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Speaker 4: It's all highway. That's the big difference that I've noticed.

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Speaker 4: I will say it is a little strange to come

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Speaker 4: back from the run and walk through a casino like

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Speaker 4: in my sweaty clothes. But other than that, I mean,

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Speaker 4: I think, like the actual hotel itself, the space flows

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Speaker 4: really nicely. It's it's a little bit more cohesive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a treadmill. I think you're supposed to go

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Speaker 1: run on the treadmill.

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Speaker 2: Well, apparently the gym was packed every morning, so I

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Speaker 2: went outside too. Katie had discovered that UNLV is actually

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Speaker 2: two blocks down and there's a nice soccer field to

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Speaker 2: run around. But before she told me that, hint, I

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Speaker 2: went the other way and you start running down these

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Speaker 2: sidewalks and it's fine, but you come across these dudes

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Speaker 2: who like look like they've just been up for a

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Speaker 2: couple of weeks. Yeah, like feathery skin.

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Speaker 1: It's Vegas.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like you can see the underbelly of

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Speaker 2: Vegas out he stands in the sun.

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Speaker 1: You stand inside.

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Speaker 2: That's what that's what, stay inside. Okay, next all right,

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Speaker 2: Next up we have David Mann from Franklin. He oversees

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Speaker 2: their ETF business and he also commented on the ETF

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Speaker 2: share class, which again big topic.

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Speaker 5: Well, so it's an act of filing. So we are

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Speaker 5: you know, only only so much we can say. And

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Speaker 5: I think they're what fifty other fifty one now is

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Speaker 5: the official number. But yeah, internally, we are doing a

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Speaker 5: lot of work to get ready for it. You know.

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Speaker 5: One of the challenges is we had conversions as an option,

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Speaker 5: we had launch a new differentiated strategy from scratch as

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Speaker 5: an option, and now we've got door three. So we

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Speaker 5: are certainly thinking through which which are the strategies we

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Speaker 5: haven't done in those first two options that we might

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Speaker 5: want to do in a share class. So we're having

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Speaker 5: those conversations.

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Speaker 1: Now, which strategy is going to win out? Do you think, Man,

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Speaker 1: it's tough.

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Speaker 2: That's a good question. And by the way that we

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Speaker 2: call it, the three c's, clones, conversions or classes. Conversions

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Speaker 2: have about eight hundred billion and clones probably in the

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Speaker 2: same ballpark. Will the ETF share class have more than

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Speaker 2: eight hundred billion? Yeah? Possibly, because if you bolt on

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Speaker 2: an ETF share class and you allow investors to just

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Speaker 2: move over with no tax consequences, well, whatn't you do that?

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Speaker 2: Imagine having a huge CD collection and Spotify comes in

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Speaker 2: and says I can get all this onto Spotify like

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Speaker 2: in Heartbeat. You know, it's basically the same concept of

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Speaker 2: making this move to the more desirable format just easier

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Speaker 2: and less costly. It should result in a ton of

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Speaker 2: money coming over. Vanguard was the test case, and over

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Speaker 2: the sort of twenty years of that patent, we've seen

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Speaker 2: a lot of people move over from the mutual fund

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Speaker 2: of the ETF. So if that's you know, a precedent,

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Speaker 2: look for both products and flows.

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Speaker 1: So what will mutual funds look like? After this.

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Speaker 2: I mean, they're always going to survive.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 2: I was just walking down you know, tenth Street in

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Speaker 2: Philly on Sunday and this bookshop had like CDs for

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Speaker 2: sale on the sidewalk. It'll be like that except you know,

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Speaker 2: fun vehicles.

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Speaker 1: Bleak.

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Speaker 2: I mean, would you buy a mutual fund right now?

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Speaker 2: I mean unless see four and K. Yeah, you're right, okay,

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Speaker 2: I mean in the four yeah, four and K I

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Speaker 2: would say, you know, is a place where the money

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Speaker 2: will come in, probably because ETFs lose a lot of

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Speaker 2: superpowers inside of four one K. But like I said,

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Speaker 2: they'll exist, They'll be around. It's going to take a

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Speaker 2: long time, but all of the new money, all of

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Speaker 2: the new cash will likely go to the ETF format.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Next, here's David Man of Franklin, who is the only

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Speaker 2: person who has seen me play tennis. I wanted you

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Speaker 2: to hear him.

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Speaker 1: Okay, talk about professional and then personal. Okay, let's hear it.

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Speaker 2: You're the only person in this whole industry who has

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Speaker 2: seen me play tennis. We played against each other. You

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Speaker 2: played a Columbia. You're a what if we'd call a

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Speaker 2: five to zero, which is the highest ranking for I

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Speaker 2: would call it like a somebody who doesn't play professionally.

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Speaker 5: Joel's listening right now.

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Speaker 2: How would you rate my game?

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Speaker 5: Okay? Lots of potential. Okay, the the the part we

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Speaker 5: need to work on. So the next time you come

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Speaker 5: out the backhand so still it's it's you know, as

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Speaker 5: you start, because as you keep getting better, you be

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Speaker 5: playing against better players, and the better players are going

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Speaker 5: to identify your weakest shot and that's where they're going

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Speaker 5: to pick on. So as soon as we get through

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Speaker 5: your backhand cleaned up, watch out, you'll be a five

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Speaker 5: to zero no time.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about no time, But if you don't

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Speaker 1: have a backhand, I know where I'm handling the ball,

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Speaker 1: and I have a good backhand, So let's play.

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Speaker 2: I got really good advice since I played him, which

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Speaker 2: is when you do a two handed backhand, you're really

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Speaker 2: it's a left handed forehand. Okay, and that really changes everything.

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Speaker 2: I've gotten better already.

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Speaker 1: I'd love to play with you, but this guy, you know,

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Speaker 1: the one handed backhand is way more graceful.

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Speaker 2: It is, it looks cooler, it's just harder. It's a

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Speaker 2: lot more I have. You have one hander. Wow, let's

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Speaker 2: play I'm down. Let's do it.

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Speaker 1: David could be on my team, and then you can

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Speaker 1: find whoever else you want and we'll play doubles.

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Speaker 2: Okay, next, Okay, we have Elizabeth Kashner of fact Set,

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Speaker 2: famous ETF analysts, been in the industry forever, and here

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Speaker 2: she is again on the ETF shirt class. Again. I

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Speaker 2: bring this up because.

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Speaker 1: There's a theme. Yeah, there's a theme.

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Speaker 2: It was the themes that.

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Speaker 7: Puts idea expands to products that are perhaps not index

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Speaker 7: oriented or to shops that may not be fully ready

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Speaker 7: for all of the logistics. I think we might see

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Speaker 7: some bumps along the road to get there. Like we

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Speaker 7: have to remember that all of the ETF record keeping

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Speaker 7: happens at the brokerage level, whereas for the mutual fund

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Speaker 7: it happens at the asset manager level. Vanguard has been

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Speaker 7: able to pull this off because they have a brokerage, right,

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Speaker 7: but not every asset manager does, and so it can

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Speaker 7: be a little bit more difficult.

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Speaker 2: This is a good point, right.

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Speaker 1: Because Vanguard really seems like they were in the driver's

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Speaker 1: seat for this.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, they invented.

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Speaker 1: Nobody benefits as much as Vanguard does.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 2: When I wrote my Bogel book. I went and talked

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Speaker 2: to Gus Souder. He's the guy who launched VANGUARDDTF business

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Speaker 2: member Bogle didn't want it, so he had to go

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Speaker 2: against the founder's wishes. And while they were launching it,

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Speaker 2: they thought, hey, why don't we make the ETF a

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Speaker 2: share class. The reason they want to do it back then,

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Speaker 2: in like the early two thousands was that this way

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Speaker 2: that the buy and hold money would be protected from

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Speaker 2: the short term money. So if you wanted to come

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Speaker 2: in and out of their treasury mutual fund or whatever,

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Speaker 2: you could just buy the ETF. If you wanted to

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Speaker 2: buy and hold, you could buy the mutual fund and

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Speaker 2: just stay there. Now, over the years people found out

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Speaker 2: you can actually just buy and hold an ETF, but

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Speaker 2: at the time that was the goal, so they made

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Speaker 2: a patent on it and it actually worked. Now, the

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Speaker 2: one thing is Vanguard does have a brokerage. You need

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Speaker 2: a brokerage platform to buy an ETF. So what if

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Speaker 2: you're a mutual fund company that doesn't have a platform.

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Speaker 2: You're going to have to get people over to some

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Speaker 2: like Schwab or something. That could be tricky. But the

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Speaker 2: amount of money, the amount of lawyers, and the amount

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Speaker 2: of companies involved. They're going to figure this out. There's

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Speaker 2: all these problems are solvable, but they are interesting. The

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Speaker 2: other thing is Vanguard is an interesting model because they

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Speaker 2: only see inflows. So Vanguard's model is when you see

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Speaker 2: inflows all the time. What about a company that does

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Speaker 2: this but sees outflows regularly? Will the ETF get hit

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Speaker 2: with capital gains? We like, we call it tax contagion.

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Speaker 2: These are some unanswered questions. So if I'm going to bet,

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Speaker 2: I'd say the over undraw on us covering this in

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Speaker 2: the next like eighteen months is probably like four. I

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Speaker 2: think this issue is going to come up and be

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Speaker 2: big and worth covering a lot.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, next.

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Speaker 2: Next, Okay, I would say the second biggest issue of

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Speaker 2: the conference was private credit and private equity being put into.

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Speaker 1: The ETF wrapper private markets.

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Speaker 2: Let's go private assets. Yeah, and we just heard recently

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Speaker 2: Larry Fink has come out and said he wants to

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Speaker 2: augetize private Vanguard has met with Carlisle Group in Blackstone.

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Speaker 2: This is happening, So how do you get it? What

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Speaker 2: do you do? Here's Elizabeth Kashner on the ETFs holding

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Speaker 2: some of this private assets.

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Speaker 7: I think We're going to find out a lot when

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Speaker 7: we get a reversal in the credit markets. Right, as

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Speaker 7: long as things are calm, as long as there's not

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Speaker 7: many redemptions, then you know, then the issue is primarily pricing,

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Speaker 7: and can you rely on the price that you're getting

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Speaker 7: on a day to day or even month to month basis.

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Speaker 7: That's a question mark. Right when you have real only

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Speaker 7: one bidder and that's also the entity that sold it

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Speaker 7: to you, you know there's a spread in there. You

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Speaker 7: just don't really know how big it is, nor do

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Speaker 7: you know how deep the market is.

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Speaker 1: She's got a lot to say. We should probably invite

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Speaker 1: her on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she is very smart and we actually talked for

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Speaker 2: about a half an hour before I even recorded her.

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Speaker 2: So what she's saying is that when you have something

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Speaker 2: that's like less liquid and ETF a good if the

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Speaker 2: markets are fine and things are going pretty well, that's

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Speaker 2: it's easy to say, Okay, I think this was a

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Speaker 2: fine idea. But when there's a huge sell off, you

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Speaker 2: sort of you can see the illiquidity form. Now there's

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Speaker 2: been junk bonds put in ETF's high old muni bonds

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Speaker 2: really had problems in the COVID cell off, so hyd

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Speaker 2: had a twenty nine percent discount on some days. I

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Speaker 2: mean that is massive. So I do think there's a

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Speaker 2: history of you know, experimenting, but I do think sell

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Speaker 2: offs when you see some of this come to fruition.

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Speaker 2: So I do think it's fine. ETF investors are used

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Speaker 2: to having funds that have less liquid stuff in them,

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Speaker 2: even during selloffs. But she has a good point. This

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Speaker 2: is part of the you know, debate on whether you

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Speaker 2: should put something less liquid into what is a super

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Speaker 2: liquid vehicle, and this debate will keep happening for ever.

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Speaker 1: I think we're all going to be watching this closely

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Speaker 1: and like, you know, looking for that thing where everybody

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Speaker 1: will point to it and go I told you so,

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Speaker 1: or or maybe the other way too.

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Speaker 2: But okay, next, So next up, we have Tyler Williams

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Speaker 2: of Nate Texas. This guy is I love this guy.

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Speaker 2: Every time I bumpendo and we have a fun conversation.

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Speaker 2: He kind of reminds me of Kieran Culkin the actor

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Speaker 2: when you hear him. He even kind of looks like him,

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Speaker 2: and he kind of sounds like him. But he's a

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Speaker 2: has a lot of personality. So I thought I would

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Speaker 2: ask him a little about working the booth. So here's

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Speaker 2: a guy standing at a booth all day, and what's

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Speaker 2: he doing? How does he get people to come over?

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Speaker 2: Here's what he had to say about that.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, well, let me start the giveaways. I guess we've

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Speaker 8: got a pickleball raffle here for advisors for dropping their

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Speaker 8: base cars and they win this nice in the Texas

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Speaker 8: pickleball set, which is a popular sport these days. Sure,

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Speaker 8: we got our cups, and we had a tide pen

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Speaker 8: there for folks that maybe spill their coffee on themselves.

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Speaker 8: But yeah, and then for other handaways, you got our

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Speaker 8: fact sheets and our brochure.

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Speaker 1: But will say the.

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Speaker 8: Paper route hasn't you know, been maybe as popular as

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Speaker 8: it once was, but we still have it here. You

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Speaker 8: certain advisors need to take some literature with them. But yeah,

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Speaker 8: other than that, boot duty is it's kind of a

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Speaker 8: you know, it's a hit or miss. Sometimes you get

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Speaker 8: some advisors interested in your products. Other advisors that haven't

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Speaker 8: heard of us. You got to give them kind of

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Speaker 8: the one thousand feet view of who the Texas is.

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Speaker 8: We're a bit different than some others that we are

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Speaker 8: multi affiliate, so usually I'll lead with, oh yeah, we

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Speaker 8: Loomis Sales is our biggest affiliate or Harri, so some

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Speaker 8: education on our firm, and then advisors that know us,

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Speaker 8: maybe you know some of the products and managers. Those

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Speaker 8: are more of a deep dive conversations.

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Speaker 2: And if somebody's like, say, eight feet away, do you

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Speaker 2: do you try to, like Jena mind track them to

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Speaker 2: walking over?

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Speaker 3: Do you go?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you go accost them?

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Speaker 5: How's that work?

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Speaker 8: So I'm lucky that I'm with some of the best

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Speaker 8: wholesalers in the game. Over here, so that's kind of

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Speaker 8: their forte. They'll kind of have a little eye contact

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Speaker 8: move and maybe come on over here things. So you

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Speaker 8: can kind of tell when someone's lingering they're looking at

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Speaker 8: your sign. There may be a bit shy if you're

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Speaker 8: in conversation. So I'll let these guys kind of work

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Speaker 8: their work, their their magic.

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Speaker 1: When you don't flirt with them, you get them with

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Speaker 1: pick a ball and tide pins. What would be if

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Speaker 1: you were working the booth? What would be the shwag

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Speaker 1: that you would be slinging.

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Speaker 2: I I'm a big fan of the wireless chargers because

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Speaker 2: when I walk around, I love those. I also like umbrellas.

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Speaker 2: They go good at home whenever I come home with

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Speaker 2: gifts because you know, I've been away for a couple

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Speaker 2: of days, so the gifts ease the burden of my

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Speaker 2: wife having to like take care of two kids while

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Speaker 2: I'm gone. But umbrellas, play well socks, and and also

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Speaker 2: the wireless chargers. I would go with those three. There

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Speaker 2: was one company that gave away, you know, those sleep masks,

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Speaker 2: and me and Tyler was the booth next to Tyler

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Speaker 2: and we're like, what's the metaphor there? Like are you

436
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,159
Speaker 2: supposed to just not look at the market or fall asleep?

437
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:16,680
Speaker 1: Like I don't know both of those.

438
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:17,879
Speaker 2: That was a little odd.

439
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:19,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like both those.

440
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,760
Speaker 2: Next up we have Ron de leje of ETF Guide.

441
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,920
Speaker 2: Ron is an old school trade publication writer and ETF

442
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,880
Speaker 2: nerd from the old days, and it was good seeing him.

443
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,280
Speaker 2: And he has a YouTube show called ETF Battles that

444
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,040
Speaker 2: have been on a couple of times where they they

445
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,960
Speaker 2: take a area like robotics and you have two analysts

446
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,200
Speaker 2: basically make the case for two ETFs and then they

447
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:49,720
Speaker 2: vote to see who wins, which is kind of a

448
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:50,360
Speaker 2: cool concept.

449
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,160
Speaker 3: Well, just trying to get the sense and I Paul,

450
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,680
Speaker 3: say what's happening in the industry and meet fellow colleagues

451
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 3: to innovation in the ETF industry is pretty well known.

452
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,879
Speaker 8: But actually see people in the rush.

453
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:03,719
Speaker 3: I mean that there's no substitute for that.

454
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 9: You can't do that with social media.

455
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,199
Speaker 2: So I asked him why he would still show up

456
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 2: after all these years. I mean, he knows everybody, and

457
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 2: he'd make a good point, you know, and this is

458
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,879
Speaker 2: why you should go one of these years, Like, you know,

459
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,440
Speaker 2: nothing beats the physical human contact.

460
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:19,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, we can do it.

461
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,959
Speaker 2: People ask about you, and I'm like, well, it's almost

462
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 2: almost enigma. Well I almost like say that it's half

463
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 2: a maneuver to keep the show the way it is,

464
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 2: because you don't want Joel going full ETF Like, it's

465
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,919
Speaker 2: better that he's protected from the nerdery so that the

466
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,400
Speaker 2: show has general semblance.

467
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 1: Yes, of safety, Yeah, but I like that.

468
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 2: Obviously post pandemic people are back into seeing people, and

469
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:47,200
Speaker 2: it's nice.

470
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 1: We should do ETF battles together. That'd be a fun one.

471
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 2: Sure.

472
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 1: Extending the invite here to ron On behalf of both

473
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:53,120
Speaker 1: of us.

474
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,440
Speaker 2: Okay, next next up we have Todd Aiken, who I'm

475
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 2: not sure. If you remember he was on this show.

476
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,119
Speaker 2: Before he was, Bloomberg wrote an article about who is

477
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 2: using all of these sort of like hot sauce products,

478
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,880
Speaker 2: and they found Todd a YouTuber and they interviewed him

479
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 2: and he basically was like, I love these things, yield max,

480
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,679
Speaker 2: the double leverage, like this is the retail investor. I

481
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 2: think it's good to actually find the face behind the flows.

482
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,160
Speaker 2: And so he was a source for this big article

483
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 2: and we had him on and he was great, and

484
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 2: he said anitier invited him to the conference. But when

485
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 2: I saw him, I was like, I did a double take.

486
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 2: I'm like, is that you? Because you don't normally get

487
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 2: direct retail investors there, it's rare. So here's what he

488
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 2: had to say.

489
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:34,880
Speaker 1: By the way, if you're interested in that episode, it

490
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 1: was October tenth, twenty twenty four, and the title was

491
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,160
Speaker 1: the Rise of the Quick buck etf.

492
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 9: Well, I'm just trying to, I guess, expand the reach

493
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,440
Speaker 9: of my channel. I got invited by some other fund managers,

494
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,480
Speaker 9: you know, and so I'm just here to, I guess,

495
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 9: bring awareness to my channel and see if there are

496
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 9: any more ETFs and different funds that we can buy

497
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 9: for my following. That would be safe that you know

498
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 9: that they can invest in that would anchor their orfolio

499
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 9: mostly with indexes and things like that. Maybe there's some

500
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 9: some newer ETF issues here that have some index funds

501
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 9: with dividends, you know, and you know, I'm after the dividends.

502
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 2: Dividends that it was his dividends, especially when they're extra

503
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 2: dividends like the yield max variety.

504
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's been busy then.

505
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, he's nice guy. Really was nice to see

506
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 2: a retail investor there.

507
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: Amazing that he's turned a YouTube channel into a business.

508
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 1: Cool to see. Okay, last one, bring it home.

509
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 2: Okay. Sue Chang from CF Benchmarks actually saw this guy

510
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 2: at the end when everybody was breaking stuff down. So

511
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 2: it's gonna sound a little noisy in the background, like

512
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 2: like there's construction going on. CF Benchmarks if you don't know, Joel,

513
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 2: they actually do the pricing for most of the bitcoin ETFs,

514
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,400
Speaker 2: and they're gonna do them for Ether and so they're

515
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: crypto kind of behind the scenes, a crucial part of

516
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 2: behind the scenes of cryptos. So I thought we get

517
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 2: a little crypto representation in these interviews.

518
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 6: This is actually the fourth consecutive year we've good hit

519
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,439
Speaker 6: Oh wow, okay, say, there's been a huge sea change

520
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 6: in the attitude to krypton bitcoin. We always whenever we said,

521
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 6: whenever I told people what we did at some of

522
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,400
Speaker 6: the social events or hear at our booth, I would

523
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 6: always get a good portion of people give what I

524
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 6: call the look, a sort of a look that says,

525
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 6: oh my word, these people are mad and I don't

526
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 6: want anything to do with them. Over the years, the

527
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 6: proportion of people who give me the look has dropped,

528
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 6: and I would say this year was the first time

529
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 6: no one gave me the look. Now, not everyone is

530
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 6: allocated to bitcoin yet, and there's all kinds of reasons why,

531
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 6: but they don't think I'm crazy anymore.

532
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 2: The look no looks, Joel. What a difference Larry think makes.

533
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, you no longer get the look. You mean it

534
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: means you've been legitimized. You can show up, yeah, and

535
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,239
Speaker 1: shut the conference down at the end.

536
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 6: Yeah.

537
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 2: And some people were like, isn't it a little noisy

538
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 2: in here? You want to go someplace. I'm like, no,

539
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 2: it's real. I was like, I like the outer noise.

540
00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 2: You feel like you're there. Some of these booths are

541
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: so big they literally had like ten people swarming to

542
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 2: undo them and like banging all I mean, one of

543
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 2: the booths had a Formula one race car. One booth

544
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 2: was in fact a state street did it was a

545
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 2: we would have loved this. It was like six baskets

546
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 2: real basketballs and then a Connect four underneath, so if

547
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 2: the ball went in, it was one of the Connect four.

548
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: So you whoever won, had to make shots and be strategic,

549
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 2: and then if you beat the next guy, your name

550
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 2: went in a raffle for Magic Johnson Basketball, which I

551
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 2: did beat my guy, but I didn't win the ball.

552
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: Love that all right. Thanks for taking that mic, and

553
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: thanks for all the guests that joined us from Vegas.

554
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Trillions until next time. You can

555
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 1: find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

556
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: or wherever else you'd like to listen. We'd love to

557
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 1: hear from you. We're on Twitter, I'm at Joel Webbers Show,

558
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 1: He's at Eric Baltuna's. This episode of Trillions was produced

559
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: by Magnus and Rickson. Bye