Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanovk. We're here every day bringing
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Speaker 1: You can also listen to our radio show at two
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Speaker 1: YouTube search Bloomberg Global News. Let's talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about what's going on with the visor, with the Visor,
Speaker 1: with the virus um Visor and BioNTech. They do expect
Speaker 1: to deliver more vaccines to the European Union this quarter
Speaker 1: than currently targeted. We're seeing, you know, some things go
Speaker 1: on when it comes to different vaccines and getting them
Speaker 1: rolled out, rolled out, Denmark becoming the first EU country
Speaker 1: to drop astro zenneck astro Zeneca's vaccine. So it's kind
Speaker 1: of a back and forth here. Yeah, And as far
Speaker 1: as those numbers, we repeat them each and every day
Speaker 1: and they change globally cases of sur past a hundred
Speaker 1: thirty seven million death six seating two point nine six million,
Speaker 1: but vaccines continuing to tick up more than million shots
Speaker 1: given worldwide. You and I each getting one, I know,
Speaker 1: well my second one at the end of the week. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad to hear Friday Friday. Hey, let's get
Speaker 1: our daily check on COVID and the vaccine roll out.
Speaker 1: Great to have back with us, Alyssa wraps she see
Speaker 1: of the healthcare solutions company, Surgical Solutions. She's back with
Speaker 1: us on the phone from Deerfield, Illinois. Alyssa, nice to
Speaker 1: have you here with him and me again. How are
Speaker 1: you pleasure to be in touch with you both again?
Speaker 1: And I too? Am one shot in different from the
Speaker 1: last time. We feel is different? He doesn't feel different totally. Well, okay,
Speaker 1: so tell us what you're hearing, especially with your healthcare workers. UM,
Speaker 1: I am curious because of the J and J vaccine,
Speaker 1: there's already a fair amount of vaccine hesitancy out there.
Speaker 1: How does this make that potentially worse? There's no question
Speaker 1: that makes it worse. And I agree with Nate Silver
Speaker 1: of five thirty eight Fame that the statistician that that
Speaker 1: that he's worried that hesitancy you'll get more people kill
Speaker 1: than actually getting the vaccine, because sticks out of cases
Speaker 1: out of seven million is by no means statistically significant.
Speaker 1: As terrible as it is that anyone had an adverse reaction,
Speaker 1: but I am concerned because J and J the one
Speaker 1: and done was such a convenient thing to do and
Speaker 1: such a good thing to do for many healthcare workers
Speaker 1: and others alike, and college students. I know a lot
Speaker 1: of college kids. That's how they got it. Yeah, not
Speaker 1: also for the people who are the elderly, who have
Speaker 1: potentially more depressed immune systems, it was not necessarily as
Speaker 1: rough or lethal. So it's really unfortunate. Obviously, I don't
Speaker 1: know if I agree with the decision to pull it
Speaker 1: in order Nate silver it is what it is. It
Speaker 1: does increase hesitancy. The only silver lining in spite of
Speaker 1: that is that there's been such improvement on distribution that
Speaker 1: I've talked about with you all before and how challenging
Speaker 1: it's been, and finally we're seeing more vaccination appointments at
Speaker 1: Walgreens and cvs and Sans clubs, etcetera, just like we
Speaker 1: had forecasted that would be a great solve. And so
Speaker 1: at least there's more There are more places to get
Speaker 1: vaccines if and when you already more being produced. So
Speaker 1: even if it's limited now to temporarily exclude J and J,
Speaker 1: at least there are more places you can get it
Speaker 1: if you want. Is there any silver lining that that
Speaker 1: that we can look at in the sense that this
Speaker 1: is not just a story about J n J, but
Speaker 1: it's also a story about Fiser, BioNTech and Maderna, given
Speaker 1: that so many of those shots have been given and
Speaker 1: there haven't been those reports of those serious adverse reactions
Speaker 1: and tim there and efficacy once their minister, I'd take
Speaker 1: it one step further and say, these are cadillacts of
Speaker 1: vaccines and if you can get them, you're incredibly fortunate.
Speaker 1: Go do it, and and you know you're already getting
Speaker 1: almost eight percent immunity with the Fiser shot after shot one,
Speaker 1: which is a real big deal. To your point, it
Speaker 1: feels good to be vaccinated, it feels good to be freer.
Speaker 1: So I do think that's really really a positive look.
Speaker 1: I gotta say, I'm just like nodding in agreement here.
Speaker 1: I was such a relief for me to, you know,
Speaker 1: close to ten days ago at this point, to drive
Speaker 1: out of that CVS parking lot with that band aid on.
Speaker 1: It felt like a way it had been lifted off.
Speaker 1: You know, we're in this pandemic and like this is
Speaker 1: the first step and most important step to get out
Speaker 1: of it. Well. And I'm going to add on to
Speaker 1: that that this past week that are a week ago,
Speaker 1: we had a little scared at our home and it
Speaker 1: was a false positive, but nonetheless we went through the
Speaker 1: quarantine again and my daughter was requested in her bedroom.
Speaker 1: But I have to say my husband was fully vaccinated.
Speaker 1: I had one, she had none. And we're thinking, oh
Speaker 1: my god, we got this far, and we were really
Speaker 1: stressed out about it and grateful that we ended up
Speaker 1: all testing negative and everything's fine, but it's a reminder
Speaker 1: to me all of a sudden, I said in my head,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad I've got the vaccine. Can't wait to
Speaker 1: get the second one. Well, and it's really amazing that,
Speaker 1: you know, we are very fortunate still to feel this way.
Speaker 1: Only twenty two percent of the country is fully vaccinated
Speaker 1: and thirty six percent or one shot in as of
Speaker 1: yesterday for the CDC, and so we're still less of
Speaker 1: the population those of us that can jump for joy
Speaker 1: and feel like we are at least, you know, good
Speaker 1: to go for this realm. So I feel really bullish
Speaker 1: that everyone who can get it was eager to get it.
Speaker 1: Should And if it's fives room and Aaron, it takes
Speaker 1: two shots versus one for at least a period of time,
Speaker 1: so be it due to two and just keep going. Well, listen,
Speaker 1: how's this playing out when it comes to to your
Speaker 1: staff is on the front lines? Because we have talked
Speaker 1: to you in the past about vaccine hesitancy among frontline workers,
Speaker 1: among healthcare workers, but we've also heard about data that
Speaker 1: show that when more people do get vaccinated within social circles,
Speaker 1: people start to get on board if they were hesitant
Speaker 1: in the beginning. How's it playing out for your employees? Um,
Speaker 1: we have, as you would imagine, it's an astute question.
Speaker 1: We have had pockets of perseverance and pockets of hesitancy.
Speaker 1: So some of the hesitancy has not surprisingly detailed with
Speaker 1: states or geographies that are more hesitant in general because
Speaker 1: of their political persuasions and and where we've seen there
Speaker 1: being a lot of administration of the vaccine. Like New
Speaker 1: York City people are much less hesitant and much higher
Speaker 1: vaccination rates even within our own firm. I think that
Speaker 1: what's interesting is is that how Corona continues to play
Speaker 1: out is also really geo focused. As factually said, it
Speaker 1: might be all along. We've got hospitals in Michigan that
Speaker 1: are already teeming with COVID patients again fearing the second
Speaker 1: variant is here. And there are other places that are
Speaker 1: like empty with COVID right now, which just isn't happening
Speaker 1: right now, and it might be too strong, but but
Speaker 1: very low incidents of COVID patients. Well, it's gonna be varied,
Speaker 1: It's going to be endemic, right This is this is
Speaker 1: part of our world. I mean, I was talking to
Speaker 1: a bunch of CEOs this morning for a Bloomberg event
Speaker 1: and they're like, we need to be ready for the
Speaker 1: next one because it's coming. I mean, how do you
Speaker 1: guys see what are the conversations, Unlissa, you guys are
Speaker 1: having around that conversations are get the first round of
Speaker 1: vaccinations pera, proferably with the efficacy, because then to tweak
Speaker 1: around the margins for variances with boosters is much easier
Speaker 1: than if you're starting from phase zero, and if you
Speaker 1: in and and of course if you have already gotten vaccinated,
Speaker 1: even if it is a variant that isn't perfectly uh protected,
Speaker 1: maybe it'll be a diminished immunal response. So you just
Speaker 1: have to hope that this first round of vaccinations is
Speaker 1: laying the foundation, which I actually believe it is. Still
Speaker 1: thinking about J and J here even though this happened,
Speaker 1: you know, at this point close to thirty six hours ago,
Speaker 1: do you think this is the end of the J
Speaker 1: and J shot? Even if it if it, you don't, Okay,
Speaker 1: So even if it don't, I'm not I have no
Speaker 1: insider information on James Dan. I'm not a board member.
Speaker 1: But they've administered six point a million doses and there
Speaker 1: were six cases and they were all amongst women who
Speaker 1: experience these low levels of blood platelets um in combination
Speaker 1: with their vaccinations. So do I think there will be
Speaker 1: necessarily additional screens and flags when you should not necessarily
Speaker 1: get the J and J shot. Sure, but it's a
Speaker 1: it's a blood clot, you know, the cerebral venice sinus
Speaker 1: thrombosis c v s T, which hopefully they can research
Speaker 1: further and help screen better for the patients who would
Speaker 1: be a risk, or tweet the vaccine to not cause
Speaker 1: that response. But again I do agree with Nate Silver,
Speaker 1: this is unfortunately statistically insignificant. And you know, the risk
Speaker 1: of getting COVID and having it newly adverse health reaction
Speaker 1: is higher than the risk of having an adverse reaction
Speaker 1: from J and J Lettle on anything else. So but
Speaker 1: when I and when I say and, I don't mean
Speaker 1: that it will be permanently pulled or suspended. What I
Speaker 1: mean is, even if it does get back to the
Speaker 1: point where the agencies are recommending that it be given
Speaker 1: in States, is there a chance that that ship sailed
Speaker 1: when the agency has made this decision to make this
Speaker 1: recommendation and it ultimately lead to people saying, Okay, well
Speaker 1: no thanks to the to the J and J. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go with the MR and A shots
Speaker 1: It could, it could any other reality is we also
Speaker 1: don't know what else is in the on the horizon
Speaker 1: to be for emergency approval. I know Astrosonica on others
Speaker 1: that have been produced globly are not popular or used
Speaker 1: here yet, but there will probably still be additional innovations
Speaker 1: yet that can continue to protect Americans from COVID nineteen
Speaker 1: and this variant or others. So I'm I'm still going
Speaker 1: to bet on the technology and the innovators. It's just
Speaker 1: how I'm wired and what I believe in. But I
Speaker 1: do think that, you know, it's it's a tough position
Speaker 1: to be in for j J. I don't think it
Speaker 1: will be the last we see of their vaccine. But
Speaker 1: even so, whether it is or isn't, fortunately we have
Speaker 1: enough of the others being produced and so much more
Speaker 1: widespread distribution that really, you know, if people want to
Speaker 1: be getting these vaccines Aprile after April nineteen, which we
Speaker 1: obviously hope they do, they should have no challenge doing so.
Speaker 1: There are some states that are have much higher stats
Speaker 1: than the national averages I've given you fully vaccinated some
Speaker 1: states anyone over sixteen is be knowledgeable for a long time.
Speaker 1: Less populous states, But there are states that are closer
Speaker 1: to herd immunity than the country as a whole. So
Speaker 1: let's all get there as quickly as we can. How
Speaker 1: important is it all that we all get quickly globally,
Speaker 1: get there quickly globally ALYSSA in order to really getting
Speaker 1: ahead of this and beyond it. I think economically it's
Speaker 1: absolutely crucial, and I think pragmatically it's also really important.
Speaker 1: We live in a global marketplace and a global business enterprise,
Speaker 1: and the phony and false yet real. I guess that's
Speaker 1: anoxy more on walls we've put up in this in
Speaker 1: this last year and a half in terms of freedom
Speaker 1: of movement internationally have real consequence. I haven't been able
Speaker 1: to get my parent from France. On a very personal note,
Speaker 1: I have friends who are not being able to see
Speaker 1: loved ones with the ease in Europe, though, we need
Speaker 1: a solve globally for these vaccination schedules so that we
Speaker 1: can begin that freedom of movement and goods more easily,
Speaker 1: absolutely as soon as possible. It will be best for
Speaker 1: the global economy. Otherwise, the people negatively impact in the
Speaker 1: country's negatively impact by this are going to get even
Speaker 1: more acutely, you know, impacted economically. We listen. We always
Speaker 1: like to check in with you about the health of
Speaker 1: the business. Speaking of economics, just give us an update
Speaker 1: about about where you are worth with surgical solutions and
Speaker 1: also what you're seeing in the healthcare industry right now
Speaker 1: as it weather is more than a year of the pandemic. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: so March versus March, we were actually what well we'll
Speaker 1: call the in March twenty nine, even more poignantly, we
Speaker 1: had seen a nice material jump in terms of same
Speaker 1: store growth, meaning elective surgeries were back, optings were operating
Speaker 1: at the levels we would want them to be to
Speaker 1: be considered have recovered. Not again, that's not even and
Speaker 1: that's not everywhere, but that is, by and large, it
Speaker 1: was a very strong March. Things like the major global
Speaker 1: freeze in texts, the major freeze in Texas, the winter storms,
Speaker 1: Arctic events, those that did depressed electri surgery volumes. In January,
Speaker 1: there it seems to have been a recovery. March seemed
Speaker 1: quote quote quote unquote back to normal. But you know,
Speaker 1: hospitals are still going to end up likely losing as
Speaker 1: a whole fifty three billion this year. That's fifty three
Speaker 1: b in a best case scenario in this country, because
Speaker 1: it's been so expensive to support all of the COVID
Speaker 1: nineteen pandemic related healthcare needs. And so the good news
Speaker 1: is the Care's Act is helping keep our healthcare system
Speaker 1: in the Black. The better news is is that you know,
Speaker 1: missesses some other of invention and people are truly learning
Speaker 1: to operate as lenly as they possibly can. But it's
Speaker 1: it's gonna be. I think Spotty will have strong months
Speaker 1: like March like we just did as a company, and
Speaker 1: I think in healthcare, and then we'll also have probably
Speaker 1: some dips if and when that those variants take us
Speaker 1: urge and we see that there are places that keep
Speaker 1: popping up, like I know Michigan is right now teaming
Speaker 1: with Covidation. Yeah, it's been a long year, long thirteen
Speaker 1: months of somebody reminded Lissa, and you have been so
Speaker 1: kind to always find time for us and just keep
Speaker 1: us up to date on what you and your team
Speaker 1: are seeing. So thank you for us. Glad you're still
Speaker 1: doing okay and your team is doing it doing wells
Speaker 1: as well. Lista thank you. Lessen Wrap, CEO of the
Speaker 1: healthcare solutions company Surgical Solutions, once again joining us from Deerfield, Illinois.
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Quick Takes Tim Stinovich from Bloomberg Radio. Well. This week's
Speaker 1: cover story the new issue of Bloomberg Business Week magazine,
Speaker 1: which will be out on newsstands later this week as
Speaker 1: well as online and on the Bloomberg terminal, is about
Speaker 1: a twenty three year old programmer, Tim who is keeping
Speaker 1: American extremists online. Yeah, his name is Nick Limm, and
Speaker 1: he provides tech support to US networks of white nationalists
Speaker 1: and conspiracy theorists that have been banned by the likes
Speaker 1: of Amazon. Joining us now is Joel Webber, editor Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Business Week, joining us on the access line from Brooklyn.
Speaker 1: And William Turton, cybersecurity reporter for Bloomberg News, joining us
Speaker 1: on the phone from New York City. Joel, William this
Speaker 1: is just a fascinating story. It's technology, it's a it's
Speaker 1: about free speech, and it's it's also about this this
Speaker 1: twenty three year old Joel um who is Nick lamb
Speaker 1: So Nick lay Actually, yeah, we'll let Turtain go with
Speaker 1: that one. No, No, Bill is your you did great story,
Speaker 1: Go ahead and take it away. Who's Nickolin. Nick lam
Speaker 1: is the CEO and founder of von Wa Tech, which
Speaker 1: is a technology startup that's head quartered in Vancouver, Washington,
Speaker 1: and it provides a kind of a specialized set of
Speaker 1: web services that are key to keeping websites online. Now,
Speaker 1: you know the websites that we kind of mentioned here,
Speaker 1: Nick doesn't actually host them, but he provides an essential
Speaker 1: service keeps them online. Significant about that is the context
Speaker 1: that the world has found itself in since UM January
Speaker 1: six right, and what we what what the U s
Speaker 1: UM experience then and the aftermath of it UM as
Speaker 1: a little bit more attention was was paid to where
Speaker 1: infrastructure internet infrastructure lies and what we saw afterwards UM
Speaker 1: was that you know, the a ws is of the
Speaker 1: world did a little bit closer look and basically kicked
Speaker 1: a lot of people off their products. So where Nick
Speaker 1: Limb fits into all of this is that he's basically
Speaker 1: a service provider of last resort. And and so h
Speaker 1: William to talk us more about like how Nick lam
Speaker 1: became became that and why he why he feels that
Speaker 1: that's important. Yeah, I mean you're talking earlier than it's
Speaker 1: a story about technology and free speech, but it's also
Speaker 1: kind of a story about the island. Nick is someone who,
Speaker 1: you know, according to people I spoke to, is technically skilled.
Speaker 1: He is actually proficient in providing these services and has
Speaker 1: been doing it from a very young age actually, But
Speaker 1: you know, to him, I mean he kind of stubbed
Speaker 1: up his ideology to me as if it's legal in
Speaker 1: the US, I don't care um. And you know, at
Speaker 1: one point he told me when he uh offered free
Speaker 1: services to Andrew England, who runs the white nationalist websites
Speaker 1: Daily Stormer, that raised his profile and made him famous.
Speaker 1: So you know, Nick would care professed to care about
Speaker 1: free speech and providing a platform to those who have
Speaker 1: been centered by a big tech then he would also say,
Speaker 1: you know, as long as pep, I don't care well.
Speaker 1: And who are some of his clients, So you know,
Speaker 1: the most important client of his and one that he
Speaker 1: has actually a very close relationship with his which just
Speaker 1: a home of Q and on um. It's where Q
Speaker 1: and on posted and and you know the people who
Speaker 1: run that website are widely speculated to be Q and
Speaker 1: Nick even went to Japan with those people to celebrate
Speaker 1: the watch of the site. And and Nick was integral
Speaker 1: to bringing this site back because cloud Flaer took the
Speaker 1: site offline after multiple Matt shooters have posted their manifestos
Speaker 1: on and they needed a replacement for cloud player. Enter
Speaker 1: Nick Limb. He's the one who kind of revives the
Speaker 1: site and is able to keep it online during you know,
Speaker 1: the peak of Q and on and to this day.
Speaker 1: So you know what's interesting to William. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: so many aspects to this story that are fascinating and
Speaker 1: you just want to know more about this guy that's
Speaker 1: behind us this year old But at heart he's an entrepreneur,
Speaker 1: right who just it sounds like I wanted to start
Speaker 1: a business. But at the same time he's allowing these
Speaker 1: extremists who are getting kicked off. You know, the established
Speaker 1: programs are platforms to continue to kind of go about
Speaker 1: their business, right, But but I think with Nick that's
Speaker 1: kind of the whole point. I mean, he actively speaks
Speaker 1: out these clients. And you know, Nick tried to clean
Speaker 1: to us that he has actually thousands of clients, but
Speaker 1: in reality has a small handful of clients and and
Speaker 1: they are these kind of fringe right wing web sites.
Speaker 1: So well, William, you you actually went to Washington, Vancouver, Washington,
Speaker 1: which is just outside my hometown of Portland, Oregon, in
Speaker 1: the fall actually, so before all the events of January
Speaker 1: went down, Um talk to us about what it was
Speaker 1: like to to visit him, So you know, he actually
Speaker 1: you know, he split his time between there and Nevada,
Speaker 1: where he lives, or Arizona rather where he lives in
Speaker 1: his Bond's condo. But but the Vonda Tech headquarters in
Speaker 1: Vancouver he rents out to some of his friends from
Speaker 1: high school. Um. You know, when I walked in, I
Speaker 1: looked on the table, I saw, you know, McDonald's spot
Speaker 1: fries and and has joints everywhere. In the backyard, there's
Speaker 1: weightlifting equipment, a shed full of servers that are mining
Speaker 1: cryptocurrencies and like four bonds. Um. So you know, they
Speaker 1: nicknamed the House of Dancer dam um. But but it
Speaker 1: is also the registered headquarters of this company. And um,
Speaker 1: you know, I was sort of surprised. You know, I
Speaker 1: wasn't expecting much, um, but I was still kind of surprised,
Speaker 1: just the assemblance to a college dorm room. Um, and
Speaker 1: especially because Nick had initially told me that actually, you know,
Speaker 1: he has offices and sometimes his employees go to it.
Speaker 1: Turns out wasn't it his grandparents house though too. That's
Speaker 1: right according to state records. I look at the house
Speaker 1: was was gifted by his grandparent. What was his upbringing like?
Speaker 1: Because he sort of has this image of or portrayed
Speaker 1: you've conveyed this image of growing up without money. But
Speaker 1: he was also posting photos of driving around in exotic
Speaker 1: luxury cars. There's like a lot of contradictions here. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's completely you know, Nick in our first interview told
Speaker 1: me that his kind of early entrepreneur spirit came out
Speaker 1: of a necessity to support his family. I tried to
Speaker 1: talk to his family. I tried to talk to his parents,
Speaker 1: some of his siblings. None of them got back to me.
Speaker 1: But you know, when I found Limb's old YouTube channel,
Speaker 1: I found you know, him driving around into his dad's
Speaker 1: white Lamborghini. Um. So it wasn't exactly a story of
Speaker 1: as you told me, you know, creating these businesses in
Speaker 1: order to quote put food on the table. So well, like,
Speaker 1: let's spind this forward a little bit. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: there are there are you know, free speech rights in
Speaker 1: this country and clearly and Nick Lym has found a
Speaker 1: way to um basking them. Um But what what kind
Speaker 1: of ultimately could how could this come down on him?
Speaker 1: Because I mean, he is walking such a delicate line
Speaker 1: here and it just feels like someone is you know,
Speaker 1: potentially in a position to to you know, elbow him
Speaker 1: out yet, right, I mean someone could, um, you know,
Speaker 1: someone a little bit more adept might come in and
Speaker 1: offer a similar service. But you know something, I was
Speaker 1: actually surprised. But I mean the people I did speak
Speaker 1: to you said that that Lam really did have technical
Speaker 1: skill and that he was good at doing this. And
Speaker 1: you know I found tweets from him as an early
Speaker 1: teen talking about his his interest in the DOS mitigation
Speaker 1: for example. Um. You know, as far as liability, I
Speaker 1: don't really think Lim has any because he's not doing
Speaker 1: anything that's patently illegal, right. Um. You know, he's kind
Speaker 1: of just posting sites that are themselves stretching the limits
Speaker 1: of the First Amendment. Um. But you know, I don't
Speaker 1: think he's doing anything that would be kind of patently illegal.
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking that for anybody listening, like and how
Speaker 1: you wrap up your store. I mean, it's a business
Speaker 1: opportunity when it comes down to it, you know, And
Speaker 1: he says, what you know, however you feel about free speech,
Speaker 1: I mean, this is an avenue where there's demand. Ultimately, William, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean this sort of practice is never going to
Speaker 1: go away. There's always gonna be someone that feels like
Speaker 1: and that's kind of a thing that was interesting to
Speaker 1: me because we talk a lot about social media censorship
Speaker 1: and deep platforming. But then you have the question do
Speaker 1: you have a right to have a website? Even um,
Speaker 1: and you know the website's being kind of kicked off
Speaker 1: the internet. It is extremely rare instance, compared to your
Speaker 1: Facebook account geting fans, right, um, And there's always gonna
Speaker 1: be someone like Nix second. Kind of still that board,
Speaker 1: I think I gotta say I love all the details
Speaker 1: around his background. Of course, I'm not gonna say, of
Speaker 1: course he has a crypto mining shed in his backyard.
Speaker 1: When I saw that detail was like, of course he does.
Speaker 1: Tim and I went all these different places about kind
Speaker 1: of like what happens next in his world William, Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I guess as crypto prices continue to rise,
Speaker 1: that may be good for him. Uh you know, I'm
Speaker 1: just I'm wondering if he'll leverage his skills into something
Speaker 1: that's kind of uh yeah, you know, I don't know,
Speaker 1: let's potently harmful. Stay tuned, is what I like to say.
Speaker 1: William Turtin, such good stuff cybersecurity reporting, Bloomberg News. Joe Weber,
Speaker 1: editor of Bloomberg Business Week, this story the cover story
Speaker 1: of the new issue of Business Week magazine. You're listening
Speaker 1: to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg Quick
Speaker 1: Takes Tim Stinovik on Bloomberg Radio. Are you are listening
Speaker 1: to Bottmberg Business Week? Goldman equity traders feel like a
Speaker 1: record quarter amid the reddit mania who said those old
Speaker 1: guys don't know how to trade, because they certainly showed
Speaker 1: up uh this quarter. Jimmy Morgan Chase, their dealmakers helped
Speaker 1: us here in the firm's best quarter. But uh, investors
Speaker 1: still concerned about loan demand. We heard Charlie talk about
Speaker 1: that Wells Fargo beating profit estimates, so struggling on expenses,
Speaker 1: but that turnaround story. Investors feeling pretty confident about what
Speaker 1: Charlie Sharf is doing over there Wells Fargo, as Charlie mentioned,
Speaker 1: up more than five Anton shoots us with us, back
Speaker 1: with US President and chief investment officer over at menton
Speaker 1: Capital Advisers. Back with us on the phone in Florida. Anton,
Speaker 1: Good to have you here. Uh got so much to
Speaker 1: talk to. How are you? I'm busy? I know, right,
Speaker 1: I know you can I can only imagine well let's
Speaker 1: go through the names. Goldman investors seemed pretty happy this
Speaker 1: was all about. It seems like trading for Goldman this quarter?
Speaker 1: What stood out for you? What do you think we
Speaker 1: all need to know as investors for Goldman? I think
Speaker 1: what you need to know it's a pipeline for the
Speaker 1: investment banking remains incredibly robust and it's been really interesting
Speaker 1: the controversy it's been caused about spacts and you know,
Speaker 1: good or bad. Uh, these companies have gone public and
Speaker 1: they all have a ton of cash and there's a
Speaker 1: two year clock kicking on them to spend that cash.
Speaker 1: So that means if you're an investment banker, you're coming
Speaker 1: up for ideas to all those hundreds of facts that
Speaker 1: have done public. And if you've closed a deal and
Speaker 1: you get the advisory that you've made a bunch of money. So, uh,
Speaker 1: every one of the investment banks is gonna be very
Speaker 1: busy on the M and A front. Uh, just on
Speaker 1: the spacts and loan let alone all the rest of
Speaker 1: the economic even if some of the spacts come undone
Speaker 1: and they just I mean, you are we are you
Speaker 1: so confident aunt on that they're going to all put
Speaker 1: that money to work in time. They're gonna try. They're
Speaker 1: gonna try, and that's the that's the thing, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe not all of them. Not talking about those investments.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying there's a fool of money out there
Speaker 1: that really wants to find a home, and that will
Speaker 1: lead to advisory fees for firms like Golden you know
Speaker 1: my uh my table, just some smaller companies like a
Speaker 1: like a Cowan or Jeffreys. But you know, they all
Speaker 1: helped underwrite these things, and they all have relationships and
Speaker 1: they'll be on either side of the transaction. Right. It's
Speaker 1: not just the investive BANKNCY. If you're advising the SPAC,
Speaker 1: it's the investment thank you see, if you're advising the seller.
Speaker 1: So there's lots of lots of fees to go around.
Speaker 1: And I think that the tax law changes, assuming there's
Speaker 1: changes in capital gains taxes, it's gonna force companies to go,
Speaker 1: you know what, maybe I should sell now while the
Speaker 1: capital gains taxes lower? Are their homes? That's going to
Speaker 1: be a driver? Are their homes for all that money? Though?
Speaker 1: Uh well, there's a lot of private companies out there, right,
Speaker 1: It's not it's not just public companies, but that these
Speaker 1: SPACs have to buy there will be a city frenzy.
Speaker 1: And you're absolutely right, and in the skepticism that some
Speaker 1: of them will not be able to put that money
Speaker 1: to work, right, not are not not put to work
Speaker 1: in a feasible manner. Let's talk to A P. Morgan
Speaker 1: down one point seven percent, but I'm just gonna pull
Speaker 1: up the year to date. It's up so far this year,
Speaker 1: even with today's pull back, some concerns about loan deman.
Speaker 1: How do you see it for JP Morgan? Well, you know,
Speaker 1: you've got a tale of a lot of different business
Speaker 1: lines here. So let's address the consumer side and the
Speaker 1: credit card I mean, you know, we basically had the
Speaker 1: Fed and the Treasury pump something like GDP into the
Speaker 1: into the economy. You know, consumers have just gotten there
Speaker 1: their six checks, if they've got a family, they've gotten
Speaker 1: multiplayers of that, and so they've done lots of things right.
Speaker 1: They saved it. They paid off the credit card debt,
Speaker 1: so particular on the credit card side, people paid down
Speaker 1: debt and you know they'll eventually, you know, hopefully come
Speaker 1: back and spend it for the economy's sake as well
Speaker 1: as for the lenders that don't want to lend them
Speaker 1: the money. But that's that's a line of business that
Speaker 1: there's just so much cash slashing around that people are
Speaker 1: actually paying with the cash for now. So that means
Speaker 1: it's so in other words, it didn't generate as much
Speaker 1: for JP Morgan as it has in the past. Well
Speaker 1: I wouldn't, yeah, right, I mean because the consumers flushed
Speaker 1: with cash. You know, what do you use a credit
Speaker 1: card when you don't have the cash? And so those
Speaker 1: credit card outstandings will probably rise as the year goes on.
Speaker 1: Unless there's more more goodies for the consumers, um will
Speaker 1: eventually start spending their savings, which again another problem with
Speaker 1: for the big banks of all the banks is the
Speaker 1: entire system is slush with deposits, so h you know,
Speaker 1: people are looking at their margins going, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: You know, but what are you gonna do with that money?
Speaker 1: I'll let money on deposit. What are you putting into bonds? Now?
Speaker 1: You'd rather lend it? That's what banks want to do.
Speaker 1: So it's the second half of the year story, I
Speaker 1: think for the entire industry. As people work down the
Speaker 1: cash and start to borrow more money, I think earning
Speaker 1: investments are actually too low for the second half of
Speaker 1: the year for most of the industry. So given that
Speaker 1: the quarter was so good, wire investors reacting this way. Well,
Speaker 1: you know what, if you look at JP Morgan, it's
Speaker 1: beaten every quarter for the last three quarters pretty nicely,
Speaker 1: and it's been down every time. This was a record
Speaker 1: first quarter. Yeah, it was a record first quarter for
Speaker 1: well yeah, JP Moore in Gouldment. I mean, you're gonna
Speaker 1: see see that repeated and um, you know, I think
Speaker 1: it was a little bit of seldom news and it
Speaker 1: was a little bit of my otic Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: they may don't have long growth in the second half
Speaker 1: of the year. I mean they've are They told us
Speaker 1: they're gonna buy seven point two billion dollars worth of
Speaker 1: their stock in this quarter. Okay, that's pretty good. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I I don't think. I I can't. I
Speaker 1: can't poke hold that quarter. Now. The interesting thing, and
Speaker 1: I was talking a lot of traders today about this.
Speaker 1: Initial traders and you know, the banks get punished when
Speaker 1: they set aside access reserves. You recall last year I
Speaker 1: was having the same conversations on oh my gosh, how
Speaker 1: terrible things are. They're setting these reserves aside, So how
Speaker 1: can you punish them for setting them aside and then
Speaker 1: punish them again for going oh my gosh, there and earnings,
Speaker 1: so they over earned because they released the reserves. You know,
Speaker 1: punish them one way or the other. But that's that's whice. Well,
Speaker 1: that's what I wanted to ask you. What we need
Speaker 1: to understand because JP Morgan did um release to a
Speaker 1: larger than expector to reserve release which added to the
Speaker 1: quarterly windfall. What do we need to understand about that?
Speaker 1: You just talked about it a little bit. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure anybody wants to try to understand SCI which is
Speaker 1: the accounting treaties put in place here UM. But it's
Speaker 1: based upon a lot of assumptions and Moody's is probably
Speaker 1: the number one forecaster they used on those assumptions. So
Speaker 1: if Moody changes its economic model that has to do
Speaker 1: with things like unemployment and stimulus UM and GDP. Right,
Speaker 1: I mean, if you, if you, if you did this
Speaker 1: report last March, you know it was, oh my gosh, right,
Speaker 1: set aside a lot of reserve. The same thing in July.
Speaker 1: Now that report leads very differently Oh, you've got to
Speaker 1: release those reserves. Right. It's literally straight accounting. That's a
Speaker 1: good point. In other words, there's nothing any tricky to it. Uh.
Speaker 1: And we're running out of time and on, but we
Speaker 1: really appreciate it and we'll get you back real soon
Speaker 1: because I always appreciate your input, your fun. By the way,
Speaker 1: your r and BUM in Financial Services Fund it is
Speaker 1: up almost so far this year, putting it at LEAs,
Speaker 1: according to Bloomberg Data, in the eighty nine percentile. Anton,
Speaker 1: thank you so much, and on shots. President, Chief investment
Speaker 1: officervant men and capital advisers. On the phone from Florida.
Speaker 1: I'm ro Marco journal now, but you let me drive, no,
Speaker 1: no, no no, d home honey please, I'll do the riding drivel.
Speaker 1: I want to drive, just drive the questions trying. This
Speaker 1: is the drive to the globe community. Thanks. We'll drying
Speaker 1: us down on Bloomberg Radio. All right, just got about
Speaker 1: nine minutes left in the trading day. It is time
Speaker 1: for the drive to the clothes and joining us today
Speaker 1: once again. Allen Lance, Research director of Lands Global dot Com,
Speaker 1: President of Allenby Lands and Associates. He's on the phone
Speaker 1: from Toledo, Ohio. Allen. Good to have you back with
Speaker 1: Tim and myself. How are you and I feel like
Speaker 1: interesting market environment. You know, now that we start earnings,
Speaker 1: how are you or what are you focusing on? I
Speaker 1: guess I should ask, well, I think it's been a
Speaker 1: situation Carol, where um the rotation has been actually a positive.
Speaker 1: You know, we've seen a stall in in the fangs
Speaker 1: and they've underperformed, and the Intels and the Ciscos of
Speaker 1: the world of have perked up. And you know, you
Speaker 1: look at healthcare and techs underperformed and and one, and
Speaker 1: you're you're getting you know, strong uh as far as
Speaker 1: momentum from energy, financials and materials, and and they're picking
Speaker 1: up the slack. And I think that's a big positive.
Speaker 1: You know, you've got you know, the the hot I
Speaker 1: p o s of Palentteer and Snowflake and him her
Speaker 1: health down from their eyes. Even DraftKings is down from
Speaker 1: seventy four to you know, fifty nine and and and
Speaker 1: I think that that's all bringing some rationality in the market.
Speaker 1: So it's not going to be all just value and
Speaker 1: cyclicals and at the expense of uh what used to
Speaker 1: lead the market. But it's going to be more of
Speaker 1: a valuation and and and in depth analysis. Uh, you
Speaker 1: know that that makes a difference. And that's right in
Speaker 1: our Bailey Wick Alan. How are you thinking about inflation
Speaker 1: and potentially hedging for for higher taxes rising interest rates. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a big thing to him that we wrote about
Speaker 1: the last issue of the Lance Letter. And and I
Speaker 1: think you know we're going to see higher interest rates. Uh,
Speaker 1: and and then um, obviously higher taxes and then eventually inflation.
Speaker 1: I think everybody really has to look at getting some
Speaker 1: inflation hedges. Um. I would look at real assets. If
Speaker 1: you look at in the seventies what happened. And I
Speaker 1: don't think it's going to be that bad. But once
Speaker 1: inflation starts, we're in its ugly head. It's it's hard
Speaker 1: to get rid of it. And and I think it's
Speaker 1: a situation where you want at least have some of
Speaker 1: your assets and in actual single family homes and actual
Speaker 1: natural gas wells. Um. You know, if you can't do that,
Speaker 1: then um, you know, um, do the next best thing.
Speaker 1: But you know, homebuilders have moved up, so we're not
Speaker 1: you know, buying those are beyond our disciplined by limits,
Speaker 1: but actually owning the you know physical ass. I think
Speaker 1: it's going to be important. Another gold has been just
Speaker 1: discarded here with the um crypto craze and and um,
Speaker 1: I think it's a situation that um, you know buying
Speaker 1: uh Barrett gold or a Newmont um you know for
Speaker 1: Barret or under sixty for Newmont. Uh had a good
Speaker 1: of it end And and I think that's a nice
Speaker 1: hedge that's easy for investors to uh participate in. See.
Speaker 1: And I think I'm not sure if I heard you
Speaker 1: clearly Alan coin base was that anywhere in your buying
Speaker 1: list today? Uh? Well, I think coin coin bases is hot,
Speaker 1: you know. And and if it's a situation where from
Speaker 1: its opening price, so you can actually get a little
Speaker 1: bit of a bargain right now. Yeah, yeah, now it's
Speaker 1: that's something we uh bought. Um it's it's something that
Speaker 1: uh um, I was saying that rather than chasing these
Speaker 1: you know, the bitcoin and you know and coin base,
Speaker 1: uh you know that just kept on rising and rising
Speaker 1: before it finally uh you know came out. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: we're a long term discipline investors, and I'd rather take
Speaker 1: that money and and and and and buy some um
Speaker 1: income producing gold mining, silver mining type companies that are uh,
Speaker 1: paying strong dividends and and and and doing well and
Speaker 1: being ignored. So you didn't know I was sarcastic, right, yeah, exactly. Well,
Speaker 1: I look, how how are you thinking about I don't
Speaker 1: want to call it froth. I don't want to use
Speaker 1: any of these kind of tired terms. But look, we're
Speaker 1: seeing record after record. We're seeing companies with direct listings
Speaker 1: with valuations of a hundred billion dollars that are tied
Speaker 1: to cryptocurrency. Um, how are you thinking about the opportunities
Speaker 1: to put money to work when we are seeing people
Speaker 1: say that the T word top Yeah. I think you
Speaker 1: get to look at you know, the going back to
Speaker 1: the basics and fundamental analysis and and doing it the
Speaker 1: right way, you know. And and it's good that the
Speaker 1: spacks of you know, lest the little bit of their
Speaker 1: craze and and uh, you know, we're seeing um as
Speaker 1: far as the I P. O. S lessening and and
Speaker 1: that type of thing, we were setting ourselves up for
Speaker 1: a bubble. Really if this would have continued. So I
Speaker 1: think that the rotational correction we had talked about initially, um,
Speaker 1: you know, is very important to the long term health
Speaker 1: of the market. But we are definitely setting ourselves up
Speaker 1: even you know, the tail winds now that are pushing
Speaker 1: the market higher or like uh the stimulus and and
Speaker 1: um as as far as uh still low interest rates,
Speaker 1: I think you know are definitely going to be negatives
Speaker 1: down the road. Is interest rates uh rise and and
Speaker 1: as uh you know, the stimulus. Uh. You get to
Speaker 1: a point where you know you've got to do something
Speaker 1: with the deficits, and nobody's talking about that. So hey, listen,
Speaker 1: we are talking a lot about banks today. What are
Speaker 1: your thoughts on that. Any opportunities there, any interest, whether
Speaker 1: it's in the big guys or maybe some of the
Speaker 1: regional players. I really like banks, you know, start the year.
Speaker 1: I think that was one of our favorite sectors when
Speaker 1: we talked, you know, as far as a few months ago.
Speaker 1: But really they've moved up Carroll to a point where
Speaker 1: you know, I wouldn't you know, chase him. One of
Speaker 1: the only financials that still within our buying territory high teams,
Speaker 1: low twenties is Rocket Companies. I think they've got a
Speaker 1: good technological advantage and um, you can still participate. His
Speaker 1: interest rates aren't going to soar even though they have
Speaker 1: higher and that's one of the reasons the stock is
Speaker 1: is still at a bargain. But really the companies we
Speaker 1: talked about, you know, six months ago, like the Wells,
Speaker 1: Fargoes and and the like, you know, have just gone
Speaker 1: to points where we're would be more likely to take
Speaker 1: profits in the strength here that then buy them and
Speaker 1: chase them. How concerned are you about things getting too hot?
Speaker 1: We talked a little about your your inflation picks, but
Speaker 1: I mean, are you concerned that we are going to
Speaker 1: start seeing real inflation? And we only about thirty seconds left? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I think we will see inflation. I mean
Speaker 1: we're starting to see it already with you know, food
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, and I think energy that's one
Speaker 1: of the reasons. And natural gas is one of our
Speaker 1: our our big place, you know, in that energy sector.
Speaker 1: And I think that it's a situation where you definitely
Speaker 1: want to position now to the year from now. It's
Speaker 1: it's gonna be a hot topic, and you don't want
Speaker 1: to be chasing you what you want to be buying
Speaker 1: selectively and and and getting your portfolio's positioned appropriately now
Speaker 1: before you know, prices get out of out of hand.
Speaker 1: On in front match front all right, we gotta run.
Speaker 1: Hey Alan, Always good to check in with you b well.
Speaker 1: Alan Lance, director of Research at LANTS Global. Thanks for
Speaker 1: listening to Bloomberg Business Week. Download the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud,
Speaker 1: or Bloomberg dot com, and you can also listen to
Speaker 1: our radio show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio
Speaker 1: or watch us on YouTube search Bloomberg Global News m