WEBVTT - J&J Shot Increases Hesitancy on Clot Risk 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.440 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanovk. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:09.799 you the latest news from the world to business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.680 plus technology, politics, economics, all partnising the power of Business 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.160 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:19.640 analysts in more than one and twenty countries. You can 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.239 download Bloomberg Business Week and iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.160 You can also listen to our radio show at two 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:27.880 pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:31.159 YouTube search Bloomberg Global News. Let's talk a little bit 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:34.240 about what's going on with the visor, with the Visor, 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:37.479 with the virus um Visor and BioNTech. They do expect 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:39.880 to deliver more vaccines to the European Union this quarter 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:43.400 than currently targeted. We're seeing, you know, some things go 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:45.440 on when it comes to different vaccines and getting them 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:48.160 rolled out, rolled out, Denmark becoming the first EU country 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:51.879 to drop astro zenneck astro Zeneca's vaccine. So it's kind 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:53.519 of a back and forth here. Yeah, And as far 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:55.920 as those numbers, we repeat them each and every day 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:58.600 and they change globally cases of sur past a hundred 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:01.960 thirty seven million death six seating two point nine six million, 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:05.639 but vaccines continuing to tick up more than million shots 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.200 given worldwide. You and I each getting one, I know, 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.160 well my second one at the end of the week. Oh, 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:12.480 I'm so glad to hear Friday Friday. Hey, let's get 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:14.840 our daily check on COVID and the vaccine roll out. 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.320 Great to have back with us, Alyssa wraps she see 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.200 of the healthcare solutions company, Surgical Solutions. She's back with 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:23.360 us on the phone from Deerfield, Illinois. Alyssa, nice to 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:25.200 have you here with him and me again. How are 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:27.880 you pleasure to be in touch with you both again? 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:30.120 And I too? Am one shot in different from the 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:36.959 last time. We feel is different? He doesn't feel different totally. Well, okay, 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:43.040 so tell us what you're hearing, especially with your healthcare workers. UM, 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:45.520 I am curious because of the J and J vaccine, 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:48.440 there's already a fair amount of vaccine hesitancy out there. 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:52.320 How does this make that potentially worse? There's no question 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:54.400 that makes it worse. And I agree with Nate Silver 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:57.200 of five thirty eight Fame that the statistician that that 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.960 that he's worried that hesitancy you'll get more people kill 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:02.720 than actually getting the vaccine, because sticks out of cases 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:05.320 out of seven million is by no means statistically significant. 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:07.520 As terrible as it is that anyone had an adverse reaction, 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:11.200 but I am concerned because J and J the one 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:13.400 and done was such a convenient thing to do and 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.400 such a good thing to do for many healthcare workers 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:18.880 and others alike, and college students. I know a lot 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.600 of college kids. That's how they got it. Yeah, not 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:23.720 also for the people who are the elderly, who have 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:27.160 potentially more depressed immune systems, it was not necessarily as 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:32.000 rough or lethal. So it's really unfortunate. Obviously, I don't 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:33.560 know if I agree with the decision to pull it 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:36.160 in order Nate silver it is what it is. It 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:39.960 does increase hesitancy. The only silver lining in spite of 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:43.080 that is that there's been such improvement on distribution that 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.280 I've talked about with you all before and how challenging 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:48.560 it's been, and finally we're seeing more vaccination appointments at 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.400 Walgreens and cvs and Sans clubs, etcetera, just like we 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:54.120 had forecasted that would be a great solve. And so 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:56.880 at least there's more There are more places to get 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:00.200 vaccines if and when you already more being produced. So 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:03.079 even if it's limited now to temporarily exclude J and J, 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:04.960 at least there are more places you can get it 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:07.040 if you want. Is there any silver lining that that 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:08.600 that we can look at in the sense that this 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:10.680 is not just a story about J n J, but 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.800 it's also a story about Fiser, BioNTech and Maderna, given 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:15.720 that so many of those shots have been given and 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:19.240 there haven't been those reports of those serious adverse reactions 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:23.600 and tim there and efficacy once their minister, I'd take 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.680 it one step further and say, these are cadillacts of 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.920 vaccines and if you can get them, you're incredibly fortunate. 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:32.200 Go do it, and and you know you're already getting 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:35.400 almost eight percent immunity with the Fiser shot after shot one, 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:38.320 which is a real big deal. To your point, it 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:42.360 feels good to be vaccinated, it feels good to be freer. 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:45.640 So I do think that's really really a positive look. 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.080 I gotta say, I'm just like nodding in agreement here. 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:51.560 I was such a relief for me to, you know, 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:54.160 close to ten days ago at this point, to drive 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:56.960 out of that CVS parking lot with that band aid on. 0:03:57.000 --> 0:03:58.680 It felt like a way it had been lifted off. 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:01.760 You know, we're in this pandemic and like this is 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:03.920 the first step and most important step to get out 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:05.200 of it. Well. And I'm going to add on to 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.840 that that this past week that are a week ago, 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:09.360 we had a little scared at our home and it 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:11.880 was a false positive, but nonetheless we went through the 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:14.880 quarantine again and my daughter was requested in her bedroom. 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:17.479 But I have to say my husband was fully vaccinated. 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.760 I had one, she had none. And we're thinking, oh 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.320 my god, we got this far, and we were really 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:26.600 stressed out about it and grateful that we ended up 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:29.159 all testing negative and everything's fine, but it's a reminder 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:30.719 to me all of a sudden, I said in my head, 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:32.760 I'm so glad I've got the vaccine. Can't wait to 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.800 get the second one. Well, and it's really amazing that, 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:38.200 you know, we are very fortunate still to feel this way. 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:41.160 Only twenty two percent of the country is fully vaccinated 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.280 and thirty six percent or one shot in as of 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:48.000 yesterday for the CDC, and so we're still less of 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:50.039 the population those of us that can jump for joy 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:52.080 and feel like we are at least, you know, good 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:55.040 to go for this realm. So I feel really bullish 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.880 that everyone who can get it was eager to get it. 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:00.520 Should And if it's fives room and Aaron, it takes 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:02.520 two shots versus one for at least a period of time, 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:06.039 so be it due to two and just keep going. Well, listen, 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:07.640 how's this playing out when it comes to to your 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:09.719 staff is on the front lines? Because we have talked 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.520 to you in the past about vaccine hesitancy among frontline workers, 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:16.279 among healthcare workers, but we've also heard about data that 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:19.920 show that when more people do get vaccinated within social circles, 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:22.640 people start to get on board if they were hesitant 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:25.240 in the beginning. How's it playing out for your employees? Um, 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:28.000 we have, as you would imagine, it's an astute question. 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:32.120 We have had pockets of perseverance and pockets of hesitancy. 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:36.599 So some of the hesitancy has not surprisingly detailed with 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:39.680 states or geographies that are more hesitant in general because 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:42.680 of their political persuasions and and where we've seen there 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.200 being a lot of administration of the vaccine. Like New 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:48.360 York City people are much less hesitant and much higher 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.599 vaccination rates even within our own firm. I think that 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.080 what's interesting is is that how Corona continues to play 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.000 out is also really geo focused. As factually said, it 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.760 might be all along. We've got hospitals in Michigan that 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:02.479 are already teeming with COVID patients again fearing the second 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:05.280 variant is here. And there are other places that are 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.279 like empty with COVID right now, which just isn't happening 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:10.080 right now, and it might be too strong, but but 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:13.320 very low incidents of COVID patients. Well, it's gonna be varied, 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:15.560 It's going to be endemic, right This is this is 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:17.280 part of our world. I mean, I was talking to 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:20.599 a bunch of CEOs this morning for a Bloomberg event 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:22.840 and they're like, we need to be ready for the 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:24.880 next one because it's coming. I mean, how do you 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:27.000 guys see what are the conversations, Unlissa, you guys are 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.960 having around that conversations are get the first round of 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:34.200 vaccinations pera, proferably with the efficacy, because then to tweak 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.839 around the margins for variances with boosters is much easier 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.480 than if you're starting from phase zero, and if you 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:42.240 in and and of course if you have already gotten vaccinated, 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:46.000 even if it is a variant that isn't perfectly uh protected, 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:49.640 maybe it'll be a diminished immunal response. So you just 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.840 have to hope that this first round of vaccinations is 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:56.279 laying the foundation, which I actually believe it is. Still 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:58.680 thinking about J and J here even though this happened, 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:01.360 you know, at this point close to thirty six hours ago, 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:03.880 do you think this is the end of the J 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:06.560 and J shot? Even if it if it, you don't, Okay, 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:08.960 So even if it don't, I'm not I have no 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:10.880 insider information on James Dan. I'm not a board member. 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:14.120 But they've administered six point a million doses and there 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.200 were six cases and they were all amongst women who 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.880 experience these low levels of blood platelets um in combination 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.120 with their vaccinations. So do I think there will be 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:28.520 necessarily additional screens and flags when you should not necessarily 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:30.800 get the J and J shot. Sure, but it's a 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:33.679 it's a blood clot, you know, the cerebral venice sinus 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.920 thrombosis c v s T, which hopefully they can research 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:39.760 further and help screen better for the patients who would 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:42.600 be a risk, or tweet the vaccine to not cause 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.120 that response. But again I do agree with Nate Silver, 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:49.080 this is unfortunately statistically insignificant. And you know, the risk 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:52.440 of getting COVID and having it newly adverse health reaction 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:54.880 is higher than the risk of having an adverse reaction 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:57.520 from J and J Lettle on anything else. So but 0:07:57.560 --> 0:07:59.520 when I and when I say and, I don't mean 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.160 that it will be permanently pulled or suspended. What I 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:06.080 mean is, even if it does get back to the 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:10.480 point where the agencies are recommending that it be given 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:14.320 in States, is there a chance that that ship sailed 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.560 when the agency has made this decision to make this 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:21.520 recommendation and it ultimately lead to people saying, Okay, well 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.280 no thanks to the to the J and J. Instead, 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:26.880 I'm going to go with the MR and A shots 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:29.880 It could, it could any other reality is we also 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:32.160 don't know what else is in the on the horizon 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.160 to be for emergency approval. I know Astrosonica on others 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:38.000 that have been produced globly are not popular or used 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:41.560 here yet, but there will probably still be additional innovations 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:46.480 yet that can continue to protect Americans from COVID nineteen 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:48.920 and this variant or others. So I'm I'm still going 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:51.240 to bet on the technology and the innovators. It's just 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:53.160 how I'm wired and what I believe in. But I 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:55.840 do think that, you know, it's it's a tough position 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:57.319 to be in for j J. I don't think it 0:08:57.320 --> 0:08:59.080 will be the last we see of their vaccine. But 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:02.720 even so, whether it is or isn't, fortunately we have 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:05.600 enough of the others being produced and so much more 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:09.720 widespread distribution that really, you know, if people want to 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:12.360 be getting these vaccines Aprile after April nineteen, which we 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.800 obviously hope they do, they should have no challenge doing so. 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:16.920 There are some states that are have much higher stats 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:20.320 than the national averages I've given you fully vaccinated some 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:22.560 states anyone over sixteen is be knowledgeable for a long time. 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:25.760 Less populous states, But there are states that are closer 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:28.160 to herd immunity than the country as a whole. So 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:30.079 let's all get there as quickly as we can. How 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:32.480 important is it all that we all get quickly globally, 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:37.000 get there quickly globally ALYSSA in order to really getting 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:39.920 ahead of this and beyond it. I think economically it's 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:44.200 absolutely crucial, and I think pragmatically it's also really important. 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:48.199 We live in a global marketplace and a global business enterprise, 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:53.839 and the phony and false yet real. I guess that's 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:56.520 anoxy more on walls we've put up in this in 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:58.320 this last year and a half in terms of freedom 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.560 of movement internationally have real consequence. I haven't been able 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:03.760 to get my parent from France. On a very personal note, 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:05.640 I have friends who are not being able to see 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:08.080 loved ones with the ease in Europe, though, we need 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.560 a solve globally for these vaccination schedules so that we 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.439 can begin that freedom of movement and goods more easily, 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:17.000 absolutely as soon as possible. It will be best for 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:20.520 the global economy. Otherwise, the people negatively impact in the 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:23.040 country's negatively impact by this are going to get even 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:27.040 more acutely, you know, impacted economically. We listen. We always 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:29.079 like to check in with you about the health of 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:32.959 the business. Speaking of economics, just give us an update 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.800 about about where you are worth with surgical solutions and 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:39.600 also what you're seeing in the healthcare industry right now 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:42.880 as it weather is more than a year of the pandemic. Absolutely, 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:47.200 so March versus March, we were actually what well we'll 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:50.360 call the in March twenty nine, even more poignantly, we 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:53.200 had seen a nice material jump in terms of same 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:57.160 store growth, meaning elective surgeries were back, optings were operating 0:10:57.240 --> 0:10:59.240 at the levels we would want them to be to 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:01.719 be considered have recovered. Not again, that's not even and 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:03.880 that's not everywhere, but that is, by and large, it 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:07.600 was a very strong March. Things like the major global 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:11.199 freeze in texts, the major freeze in Texas, the winter storms, 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:15.400 Arctic events, those that did depressed electri surgery volumes. In January, 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:17.280 there it seems to have been a recovery. March seemed 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:20.720 quote quote quote unquote back to normal. But you know, 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.960 hospitals are still going to end up likely losing as 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.680 a whole fifty three billion this year. That's fifty three 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:29.720 b in a best case scenario in this country, because 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:34.000 it's been so expensive to support all of the COVID 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:38.160 nineteen pandemic related healthcare needs. And so the good news 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:40.679 is the Care's Act is helping keep our healthcare system 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:43.240 in the Black. The better news is is that you know, 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.720 missesses some other of invention and people are truly learning 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:49.960 to operate as lenly as they possibly can. But it's 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.960 it's gonna be. I think Spotty will have strong months 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:54.760 like March like we just did as a company, and 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:56.880 I think in healthcare, and then we'll also have probably 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.960 some dips if and when that those variants take us 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.560 urge and we see that there are places that keep 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:04.880 popping up, like I know Michigan is right now teaming 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:07.800 with Covidation. Yeah, it's been a long year, long thirteen 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:11.080 months of somebody reminded Lissa, and you have been so 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:13.199 kind to always find time for us and just keep 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:14.760 us up to date on what you and your team 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:17.240 are seeing. So thank you for us. Glad you're still 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:19.720 doing okay and your team is doing it doing wells 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.920 as well. Lista thank you. Lessen Wrap, CEO of the 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:28.400 healthcare solutions company Surgical Solutions, once again joining us from Deerfield, Illinois. 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:32.439 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:36.760 Quick Takes Tim Stinovich from Bloomberg Radio. Well. This week's 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:39.200 cover story the new issue of Bloomberg Business Week magazine, 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:42.280 which will be out on newsstands later this week as 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:44.880 well as online and on the Bloomberg terminal, is about 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:47.839 a twenty three year old programmer, Tim who is keeping 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:51.840 American extremists online. Yeah, his name is Nick Limm, and 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:55.000 he provides tech support to US networks of white nationalists 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.080 and conspiracy theorists that have been banned by the likes 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:01.440 of Amazon. Joining us now is Joel Webber, editor Bloomberg 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:03.680 Business Week, joining us on the access line from Brooklyn. 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.840 And William Turton, cybersecurity reporter for Bloomberg News, joining us 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:10.800 on the phone from New York City. Joel, William this 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:15.640 is just a fascinating story. It's technology, it's a it's 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.440 about free speech, and it's it's also about this this 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:22.480 twenty three year old Joel um who is Nick lamb 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:28.480 So Nick lay Actually, yeah, we'll let Turtain go with 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.959 that one. No, No, Bill is your you did great story, 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:35.000 Go ahead and take it away. Who's Nickolin. Nick lam 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:37.120 is the CEO and founder of von Wa Tech, which 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:41.280 is a technology startup that's head quartered in Vancouver, Washington, 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.520 and it provides a kind of a specialized set of 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.240 web services that are key to keeping websites online. Now, 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:49.360 you know the websites that we kind of mentioned here, 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.200 Nick doesn't actually host them, but he provides an essential 0:13:52.240 --> 0:14:02.240 service keeps them online. Significant about that is the context 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:06.600 that the world has found itself in since UM January 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:09.800 six right, and what we what what the U s 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:13.720 UM experience then and the aftermath of it UM as 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:19.000 a little bit more attention was was paid to where 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:25.240 infrastructure internet infrastructure lies and what we saw afterwards UM 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:27.440 was that you know, the a ws is of the 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:31.480 world did a little bit closer look and basically kicked 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:34.640 a lot of people off their products. So where Nick 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:37.000 Limb fits into all of this is that he's basically 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:41.680 a service provider of last resort. And and so h 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:45.440 William to talk us more about like how Nick lam 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:48.960 became became that and why he why he feels that 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:54.320 that's important. Yeah, I mean you're talking earlier than it's 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:56.280 a story about technology and free speech, but it's also 0:14:56.360 --> 0:15:00.400 kind of a story about the island. Nick is someone who, 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.240 you know, according to people I spoke to, is technically skilled. 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:07.280 He is actually proficient in providing these services and has 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:09.600 been doing it from a very young age actually, But 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.080 you know, to him, I mean he kind of stubbed 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:16.320 up his ideology to me as if it's legal in 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.360 the US, I don't care um. And you know, at 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:23.280 one point he told me when he uh offered free 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:26.400 services to Andrew England, who runs the white nationalist websites 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:30.280 Daily Stormer, that raised his profile and made him famous. 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:34.640 So you know, Nick would care professed to care about 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:37.280 free speech and providing a platform to those who have 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:39.640 been centered by a big tech then he would also say, 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.360 you know, as long as pep, I don't care well. 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:46.040 And who are some of his clients, So you know, 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.200 the most important client of his and one that he 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:50.760 has actually a very close relationship with his which just 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:54.000 a home of Q and on um. It's where Q 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:56.640 and on posted and and you know the people who 0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:00.440 run that website are widely speculated to be Q and 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.520 Nick even went to Japan with those people to celebrate 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:05.480 the watch of the site. And and Nick was integral 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.200 to bringing this site back because cloud Flaer took the 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:12.160 site offline after multiple Matt shooters have posted their manifestos 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.560 on and they needed a replacement for cloud player. Enter 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:18.120 Nick Limb. He's the one who kind of revives the 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:20.640 site and is able to keep it online during you know, 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:22.960 the peak of Q and on and to this day. 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:26.400 So you know what's interesting to William. I mean, there's 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.720 so many aspects to this story that are fascinating and 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.280 you just want to know more about this guy that's 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:36.880 behind us this year old But at heart he's an entrepreneur, 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:39.520 right who just it sounds like I wanted to start 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:42.120 a business. But at the same time he's allowing these 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:45.440 extremists who are getting kicked off. You know, the established 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:49.160 programs are platforms to continue to kind of go about 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:55.040 their business, right, But but I think with Nick that's 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.200 kind of the whole point. I mean, he actively speaks 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:00.840 out these clients. And you know, Nick tried to clean 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:02.600 to us that he has actually thousands of clients, but 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.280 in reality has a small handful of clients and and 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.160 they are these kind of fringe right wing web sites. 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:14.320 So well, William, you you actually went to Washington, Vancouver, Washington, 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:17.840 which is just outside my hometown of Portland, Oregon, in 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.600 the fall actually, so before all the events of January 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.240 went down, Um talk to us about what it was 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:29.240 like to to visit him, So you know, he actually 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:31.400 you know, he split his time between there and Nevada, 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:33.800 where he lives, or Arizona rather where he lives in 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:38.359 his Bond's condo. But but the Vonda Tech headquarters in 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:41.040 Vancouver he rents out to some of his friends from 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.159 high school. Um. You know, when I walked in, I 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:45.280 looked on the table, I saw, you know, McDonald's spot 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.840 fries and and has joints everywhere. In the backyard, there's 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.480 weightlifting equipment, a shed full of servers that are mining 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:56.399 cryptocurrencies and like four bonds. Um. So you know, they 0:17:56.480 --> 0:18:00.119 nicknamed the House of Dancer dam um. But but it 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:04.439 is also the registered headquarters of this company. And um, 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.960 you know, I was sort of surprised. You know, I 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:11.920 wasn't expecting much, um, but I was still kind of surprised, 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:15.840 just the assemblance to a college dorm room. Um, and 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.399 especially because Nick had initially told me that actually, you know, 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.480 he has offices and sometimes his employees go to it. 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:25.520 Turns out wasn't it his grandparents house though too. That's 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:28.359 right according to state records. I look at the house 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.679 was was gifted by his grandparent. What was his upbringing like? 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:35.240 Because he sort of has this image of or portrayed 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:39.080 you've conveyed this image of growing up without money. But 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:44.000 he was also posting photos of driving around in exotic 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:48.440 luxury cars. There's like a lot of contradictions here. Yes, 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:52.240 it's completely you know, Nick in our first interview told 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:55.760 me that his kind of early entrepreneur spirit came out 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.080 of a necessity to support his family. I tried to 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:00.000 talk to his family. I tried to talk to his parents, 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.320 some of his siblings. None of them got back to me. 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:05.840 But you know, when I found Limb's old YouTube channel, 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.920 I found you know, him driving around into his dad's 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:12.959 white Lamborghini. Um. So it wasn't exactly a story of 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:15.600 as you told me, you know, creating these businesses in 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:20.360 order to quote put food on the table. So well, like, 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:22.560 let's spind this forward a little bit. Um. You know, 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:26.480 there are there are you know, free speech rights in 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:29.520 this country and clearly and Nick Lym has found a 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:34.440 way to um basking them. Um But what what kind 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:37.439 of ultimately could how could this come down on him? 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:42.080 Because I mean, he is walking such a delicate line 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.399 here and it just feels like someone is you know, 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:48.200 potentially in a position to to you know, elbow him 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:52.439 out yet, right, I mean someone could, um, you know, 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:54.439 someone a little bit more adept might come in and 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:56.560 offer a similar service. But you know something, I was 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:58.680 actually surprised. But I mean the people I did speak 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:01.240 to you said that that Lam really did have technical 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:02.600 skill and that he was good at doing this. And 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:04.760 you know I found tweets from him as an early 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.800 teen talking about his his interest in the DOS mitigation 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.359 for example. Um. You know, as far as liability, I 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:13.760 don't really think Lim has any because he's not doing 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:16.959 anything that's patently illegal, right. Um. You know, he's kind 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:20.439 of just posting sites that are themselves stretching the limits 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:23.760 of the First Amendment. Um. But you know, I don't 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:26.480 think he's doing anything that would be kind of patently illegal. 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:28.919 I'm just thinking that for anybody listening, like and how 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:30.560