1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Markomas Show, 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: where we're talking about the decentralized revolution, talking about the 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: world is breaking apart, of course, as we look at 4 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: it through the lens of politics, finance, and technology. That 5 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: technology being bitcoin, which is this decentralized technology that's changing 6 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 1: the world. You know, I like to bring to you 7 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: some latest breaking news headlines, some education, and some interesting guests. 8 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: You don't have to listen to me all the time. 9 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: And that's what I have for you today. I'm sitting 10 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: down with Jason Brett. He's a government affairs lobbyist for bitcoin, 11 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: crypto blockchain technology. He's an advisor to the Bitcoin Policy Institute, 12 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: and boy, we have a lot to dig into today. Jason, 13 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. 14 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: Absolutely thanks for having me Mark. 15 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: So, you know, I kind of had this list of 16 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: things that I wanted to talk about and maybe we will. 17 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: We'll see where we get there. But there was some 18 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,279 Speaker 1: late breaking news that just came in literally as I'm 19 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: sitting here recording that I want to talk about. And 20 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: it is, Man, I don't even know what to call it. 21 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: It's of course it is right. It's like one of 22 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: those pieces of news like of course, of course, this 23 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: war is being used to increase the state power, so 24 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: to speak. And so the state, the Treasury Department, which 25 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: I've done a video calling it like this ice all 26 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: seen eye of saar On, Like the Treasury Department, all 27 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: of these like three four letter measures they put in 28 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: place are just really about seeing everything. And so the 29 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: Treasury Department put out a piece of information. Janet Yellen, 30 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: I think you said, put out something under the sort 31 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: of cover of the Patriot Act, which is sort of 32 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: banning or something. And I'll let you explain about banning 33 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: the ability for cryptocurrency to use mixing technology that would 34 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: sort of obfuscate the transactions that would prevent the all 35 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: seen eye of sara on the Treasury from seeing everything. 36 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: Is that about right? 37 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not just seeing in this case, it would 38 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: essentially ban the activity, which means developers people in the 39 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 2: US who might be building these products and services could 40 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 2: be liable as well for implications with money laundering. This 41 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 2: is definitely one of the areas that's called a special 42 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 2: measure that is the result of nine to eleven in 43 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 2: the Patriot Act, and the ability of the Treasury that's 44 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 2: been granted certain powers by the US to do things 45 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 2: in financial markets and with financial institutions and financial accounts 46 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 2: to potentially stop or halt like the next nine to eleven. 47 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: Now, just the other day, a couple of days ago, 48 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: I saw a report from the Treasury come out, and 49 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: it said that it was talking about funding going to 50 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: terrorist organizations like Commas, and it's said in there that 51 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: they had received two thousand dollars worth of bitcoin transactions. 52 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: But then they talked about all the other money that 53 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: had gone there, which was way more than two thousand 54 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: dollars that would through traditional banking systems. 55 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you wonder why we're spending all of this 56 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 2: time on a very small portion of how HAMAS is 57 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 2: getting it's funding a lot of what you're seeing in 58 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 2: today's late breaking news. And also that what you're pointing to, 59 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 2: which is the other Treasury sanction from OPAC is Senator 60 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Warren wrote a letter to the White House and 61 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: talked about the fact that, you know, the US needs 62 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 2: to do something about the fact that there was a 63 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 2: connection or supposedly a connection between HAMAS and cryptocurrency, and 64 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 2: it got so much attention because it wasn't just Senator Warren, 65 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: she had about twenty six Senators and I think seventy 66 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 2: six representatives, mostly Democrat but a few Republicans. So that's 67 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 2: gotten the attention of the Secretary, Treasury Secretary, anybody. Time 68 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: you have that many people from Congress alert them to 69 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 2: what they say, is this issue. It really is sparked 70 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: by when the Wall Street Journal came out with a 71 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 2: report from some things that Elliptic, you know, the blockchain 72 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 2: analytics company noted, which is that, claiming that HAMAS used 73 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 2: cryptocurrency to fuel their attacks. You'd think, you know, we're 74 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 2: so important, right that cryptocurrency is the only thing that 75 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 2: HAMAS uses. It's like a small, small, like not even 76 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: a basis point probably as far as the overall scheme 77 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: of things, but it is getting this kind of attention. 78 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. I posted this on my Instagram account, which, by 79 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: the way, for not follow me, you should just sort 80 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: of mark Moss on Instagram. But I posted this thing 81 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: my story October twelfth, and it was a chart showing 82 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: crypto funds received by Palestinian Islamic Jihad and it showed 83 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, twenty two, twenty three, and how there 84 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: was like almost a complete drop down to nothing. It 85 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: had reached a high point in twenty twenty two of 86 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: about almost ten million dollars and dropped down to almost 87 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: zero after Hamas put out a warning saying do not 88 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: send us bitcoin. Right, so even Hamas is saying don't 89 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: don't send it to us. We don't even want it, 90 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: and it's completely fallen off a cliff. So they said 91 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 1: they don't want it, don't send it to us. We 92 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 1: can see from these analytics you're talking about that it's 93 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: completely stopped, but yet they're still trying to pass laws 94 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: about it. 95 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, this is what we call in DC 96 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 2: the political football. Unfortunately, they're taking this topic and making 97 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: it and Mark. What's really interesting is not only is 98 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 2: it stopped and it's funny you said, Hamas said, they 99 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 2: stop using it. Very often when we think about terrorist 100 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: groups and the information they give, usually it's false. Right, 101 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 2: they're trying to say this is one time I really 102 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 2: believe Hamas was like, no, we're really not using bitcoin, 103 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 2: Please don't do it, because that's how a lot of 104 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 2: the Israeli counterintelligence were finding people because they were using 105 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 2: bitcoin and they couldn't promise donor privacy, and they essentially 106 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: moved to Tether, which was interesting because then the see 107 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: new Tether CEO came in like five days ago, and 108 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 2: then New Tether CEO said, you know, we're stopping all 109 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 2: these transactions. You know a little bit of a difference 110 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: right between your centralized stable coin and your decentralized bitcoin. 111 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 2: But it was clear that whatever Hamas was trying to 112 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 2: do with bitcoin had been disrupted so much so that 113 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 2: in April twenty thirteen they were crying uncle, like, just 114 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 2: don't use it anymore. But you know, why should the 115 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 2: truth get in the way of the fact that we 116 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 2: have a lot of people in this country, particularly progressive Democrats, 117 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: who are strongly against this entire ecosystem, against decentralized finance, 118 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: and have been trying to limit its growth for some time, 119 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 2: you know, from creating these kinds of rules. What's alarming 120 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 2: to me is the fact that we're now in this 121 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 2: state of when the Treasury Secretary has discretion, because that 122 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 2: should be in the you know, almost like desperate of times, 123 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 2: when we're absolutely sure something is going wrong, the Treasury 124 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: Secretary can say, Okay, I'm going to shut this off 125 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 2: because yeah, this might be mixers. But then, like, what's 126 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 2: to say Okay, Mark Moss, we're going to shut off 127 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 2: your account now because we believe like this is where 128 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,799 Speaker 2: we get into the censorship of transactions that gets. 129 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: Very skin Yeah. So when she talks about well, first 130 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: of all, I just want to say for everybody listening, 131 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: we've heard this story before. There was a big report 132 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: called the fencend Files that came out like two years ago, 133 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: and it showed how fence In, which is of course 134 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, which is exactly what we're 135 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: talking about right here, they're the ones that are doing this. 136 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: But these fence and files came out that showed that 137 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: the banks were like actively laundering I think it was 138 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: two trillion dollars for cartels and this was known, and 139 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: there were fines paid, and sure there was like things 140 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: like that some of these banks had to pay a 141 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: couple of little fines or whatever. But what do you 142 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: remember that wasn't there like two trillion dollars that they 143 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: were using in US dollars through the US banking system. 144 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: Yes, it is a fact of where sometimes fence and 145 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 2: is and is I should say effective as it should be. 146 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: So yeah, so two trillion dollars were used in dollars 147 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: in US dollars. Here we have two, per the Treasury's 148 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: own report, two thousand dollars of bitcoin, so like literally 149 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: making amountain out of a little speck or something like that. 150 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: So this specifically, I want to dig into this specifically. 151 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: So this specifically is going against mixers. And so there 152 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: was the Tornado Cash incidents that happened earlier where the 153 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: person who just wrote the code ended up getting arrested 154 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: I think for that. And so if they're going after 155 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,839 Speaker 1: mixers specifically, it says right here, if I'm reading it, 156 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: the rule would identify international crypto mixing, a practice that 157 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: anonymizes crypto funds by mixing them with others, as a 158 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 1: primary laundering concern, and would require financial institutions to report 159 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: transactions involving crypto mixing. So basically, they're saying any use 160 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: of this would be flat and any institution that sees 161 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: this would then have to file a SARS Reports suspicious 162 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: report or something like that. But I'm curious of what 163 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 1: this means and where this goes. But I got to 164 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: take a very quick break. So if you're just tuning in, 165 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: you're listening to the Mark Moss Show, I'm sitting down 166 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: with Jason Brett. He's a government affairs lobbyist for a bitcoin, 167 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: crypto and blockchain technology. We're talking about this breaking news 168 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: of this security release about cryptocurrencies. We'll be back with 169 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: more in a minute after a very quick break. Don't 170 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: go away, bear back, all right, Welcome back. If you're 171 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: just tune in, you're listening to the Mark Moss Show. 172 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: I'm sitting down with Jason Brett, a government affairs lobbyist 173 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: for bitcoin, crypto and blockchain technology, and we're talking about 174 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: this late break latest breaking news the Treasury Department, the 175 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: Financial Enforcement Crimes Network, and this rule of crypto mixing. 176 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: So when I read it just here, it looks like 177 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: they're saying financial institutions would have to report any transactions 178 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: involving crypto mixing. Is that sort of the teeth of 179 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: it and what is mean essentially? 180 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 2: And this just came out today, so I'm still learning 181 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 2: as well, but essentially it's gonna force any it's going 182 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 2: after international crypto mixing. And it's as you mentioned before 183 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 2: about with Tornado Cash. So tornado Cash was essentially a tool, right, 184 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: It's it's a program smart contract that was on the 185 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 2: Ethereum network where they found that North Korea was using 186 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,559 Speaker 2: that to mix or hide or anonymize, you know, allegedly 187 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: probably you know, to their country to help with their 188 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 2: you know, nuclear missiles program. And so what this would 189 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 2: do is essentially it would it would flag all mixers 190 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 2: as money laundering, uh, you know operations. So you know, 191 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 2: we may have our own opinions about what mixers are. 192 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 2: But what's important though, and what's what's scary about this, 193 00:10:58,559 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 2: I think, or at least something we need to take 194 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 2: a pause and think about, is how does this affect 195 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: the developers and ecosystem Like you mentioned with Tornado Cash, 196 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 2: we saw the developer you know, go to jail. You know, 197 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 2: is this going to have people who are building on 198 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 2: you know, crypto right now and DeFi and building on 199 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 2: stuff relating to the networks, you know, stop doing it 200 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 2: maybe in the US because why would they want to 201 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 2: be potentially associated with money laundering charge? But it again, 202 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 2: it's you know, you said it best. It's that I 203 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 2: you know, it's the expanding eye of treasury to that 204 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 2: that is now being implemented as the result of at 205 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 2: least what I thought about is what would ever happen if, 206 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 2: like they said, somehow bitcoin was used as part of 207 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 2: a terrorist attack. We have two thousand dollars that supposedly 208 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:46,959 Speaker 2: was part of this, you know, and now of course 209 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 2: it's you know, that's the story, and you know, we're 210 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 2: plugging up the whole on like the Titanic regarding financial transactions. 211 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 2: That's like a little tiny hole that has nothing to 212 00:11:57,559 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 2: do with why like the Titanic is sinking. This is 213 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 2: such a small portion. There's the potential. There's so much 214 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 2: too new new to this, and the threat is, you know, 215 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: we're killing off this technology or making developers scared to 216 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 2: work in it because the Treasury is getting involved with 217 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 2: with all these rules and they're applying kind of what 218 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 2: you would call standard financial transaction rules to our space, 219 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 2: and that's I don't know if that's right. They should have, 220 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 2: you know, fit for purpose type regulations. 221 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: Now, you said that we all have our own views 222 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: of what crypto mixing is, So what's your view. 223 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 2: So I think that crypto mixing has its place when 224 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 2: it comes to people in this country who maybe don't 225 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 2: want necessarily someone to know, you know, what I'm doing 226 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 2: with my cryptocurrency or bitcoin, because I just want to 227 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: protect my financial privacy and I think there's a degree 228 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 2: to which that I should be able to do that 229 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 2: because I feel like I'm on the side of the 230 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 2: white hats and the good guys, you know, where if 231 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 2: I don't necessary really want you mark or your audience 232 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 2: to know what I'm doing with my bitcoin or building 233 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 2: something in my backyard or doing some hobby, you know, 234 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 2: it should kind of remain my business. But it gets tricky, right, 235 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: And the philosophical like question here that is way beyond 236 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,839 Speaker 2: my ability to figure out, and something you know, to 237 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 2: chew on, is what do we do when we have 238 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 2: all of these transactions on the internet? Are they are 239 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 2: they all going to be like cash? Like if I 240 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 2: have cash, I can just go to the store and 241 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: buy something. You know, maybe I want to go buy 242 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 2: a doughnut for today and I don't want my wife 243 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 2: hastling about it. Or does everything have to be known 244 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 2: in this new electronic sphere. 245 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: Well, it seems like cash has worked pretty well for 246 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: a long time, and it seems like that works. But 247 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 1: you know, to your point, you know a lot of 248 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 1: people might say that if you have nothing to hide, 249 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 1: then what are you worried about? I loved there was 250 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 1: a quote from Edward Snowden, who said those who saying 251 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: they don't need privacy because they have nothing to hide 252 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: is like saying I don't need freedom of speech, we 253 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: have nothing to say. And I love that quote. But 254 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: you know, to your point, like, there's all types of 255 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: things that you don't want to be public. I don't 256 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: want my wife to know I had a donut, to 257 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: your example, or for example, I worked out. I'm a 258 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: business and I worked out with one of my customers 259 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: to give them a discount, and I don't want everyone 260 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: else to know that they've got a discount. Right, there's a 261 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: million legitimate reasons why we need some sort of privacy, 262 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: and I would I would say, you know, from a 263 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: philosophical standpoint, we know there's been numerous counts and studies 264 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: that have been done that the majority of people are good. 265 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: And you know, for the one or two percent of 266 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: people that may do something bad, why do we penalize 267 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: the ninety eight percent of the people for that? I 268 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: would say that. The other thing I would say is 269 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: that you know, these terrorists or these criminals, or whoever 270 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: it is that they want to stop doing from whatever 271 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: bad thing they're going to do, we already have laws 272 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: against that. So like turns out we have laws against 273 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: like killing people. Turns out the it's already illegal. But 274 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: this is sort of like a pre crime almost right, 275 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: where they're trying to prevent any instance that would lead 276 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: to that, as opposed to penalizing the crime itself. And 277 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: the problem that I get into is that then I 278 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: would imagine these terrorists also probably use cell phones, and 279 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: they probably drive cars, and I bet they even ate 280 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: some food, So we should probably take away food because 281 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: that enables the terrorists as well. Like where do you 282 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: end up drawing that line with crypto? 283 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 2: You know, we have, like you said about cell phones, 284 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: and I was a regularor with the FDIC, and I 285 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 2: remember back in two thousand and eight, I forecast that 286 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 2: we'd start doing banking on our mobile phones by the 287 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: year twenty twenty. So it shows you how fast this 288 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 2: stuff can spread. And we have people in so many 289 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: different countries now that are using mobile phones and have 290 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 2: access to this. And you know, my first thought about 291 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 2: something like that is that's a good thing. You know, 292 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 2: people who never could have wealth, people in poor countries 293 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 2: finally have a cell phone, can start to do something, 294 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 2: build wealth for their families in a way that they 295 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 2: maybe couldn't before, they couldn't have access to a traditional 296 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 2: bank or whatever. And then of course you're going to 297 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 2: have the people the you know, the evildoers as I 298 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 2: you know, call them, like a people who take away 299 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 2: the medicine and food from these people or whatever. And 300 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 2: you know, you're just that's just a something. It's a 301 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 2: function of society. It's it shouldn't be a let's not 302 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 2: progress with the technology. And I think that we have 303 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 2: to understand that this technology is progressing to the point 304 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 2: where we should have probably some good rules. Laws are 305 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 2: good to the degree that you know, protects us from 306 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 2: basic crimes and things like that. But you know, these 307 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 2: this is a very complex area. So making these decisions 308 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 2: in this you know, wartime frame of mind about you know, 309 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 2: one transaction we found and and and that is is 310 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 2: where we get bad policy and where I think we 311 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 2: start to see our liberties infringed upon a little bit. 312 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 2: And that's where there has to be this careful balance 313 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 2: because we don't want to take away the opportunity this 314 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 2: technology provides for people who maybe will never be able 315 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 2: to be banked before. 316 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: So when you're going to when you're going to lobby 317 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: for these things. I mean, you're are you Are you 318 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 1: in Washington? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, So you're in Washington and 319 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: you're out there trying to talk to you know, some 320 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: of these these legislators, these lawmakers, their aids. Most likely 321 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: it is probably who you're talking to. Whatever. I'm curious 322 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: one what your angle is, like how you sort of 323 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: attack and open up that conversation. And then I'm also 324 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: curious on what your sort of feedback and response is 325 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: to that. But before you answer that, we've got to 326 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: take a very quick break. If you're just tune in, 327 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: you're listening to the Markomas Show. I'm sitting down with 328 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: Jason Brett. He's a government affairs lobbyist for bitcoin, crypto 329 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 1: and blockchain technology, which is what we're talking about that. 330 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 1: He's an advisor to the Bitcoin Policy Institute. We're talking 331 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: about these new laws that have just been put into place, 332 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,959 Speaker 1: or rules that have been put into place restricting our 333 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: freedom of technology. Back with more on that in a minute. 334 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: Don't go away, I'll be back, all right, Welcome back. 335 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: If you're just tune in, you're listening to the Mark 336 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: mass Show. I'm sitting down with Jason Brett, Government affairs 337 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: lobbyist for bitcoin, crypto and blockchain technology and Jason right 338 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,479 Speaker 1: before the break I had kind of thrown out, So 339 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: you're you're there lobbying. You're you're on the hill here 340 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: in Washington, and you're you're you're talking there, You're trying 341 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: to lobby for this. You're trying to kind of voice 342 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: this U I don't know, this be this voice of 343 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: reason if you will. How do those conversations go? What's 344 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: your sort of like angle or like I don't want 345 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: to say attack vector, but like you know, how do 346 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 1: you try to get them to understand this better? And 347 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: like what's that response? 348 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 2: Like, yeah, so a lot of it is, as you say, 349 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 2: typically more of the staffers than the members, but it's 350 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 2: a lot of education. And so up to the point 351 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 2: prior to when hamas you know, invaded Israel, I think 352 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 2: that the main conversation was around our friend Gary Gensler 353 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 2: at the SEC and about trying to straighten out the 354 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 2: issue of like what our security tokens versus whatter digit commodities, 355 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 2: and it's really just trying to explain it as this 356 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 2: is a new marketplace. Yes it's a threat, and sometimes 357 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 2: the banking lobby isn't crazy about it because they feel 358 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 2: like we're doing things that banks can't do. So sometimes 359 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,360 Speaker 2: you have to explain this is, you know, new technology. 360 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 2: It doesn't necessarily if we just you know, followed everything 361 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 2: that the banks did from before, maybe we wouldn't have 362 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 2: the innovation that we're having today. So it's an argument first, 363 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 2: you know, financial technology innovation, and it's it's the The 364 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 2: other part is that if we don't do it here, 365 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: it's going to happen in other countries. It already is, 366 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 2: and so you know, we can fall behind. You know, 367 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 2: we risk falling behind in this industry, whereas with the Internet, 368 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 2: you know, we didn't say, hey, let's just ban the 369 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 2: Internet and then it you know, showed up in other countries. 370 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: I think it's it was actually the opposite, right, it 371 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 1: was actually the opposite. They actually put special protections in 372 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: for the Internet so it could allow to flourish and grow. 373 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I and I often make the connection between 374 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 2: like what China did with bitcoin mining, you know, and 375 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 2: bitcoin in general, is they kind of threw it out 376 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,199 Speaker 2: of the country because it wasn't really something that they 377 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 2: could control as a totalitarian state, didn't really fit with 378 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 2: their mindset. You know, we have a different mindset here, 379 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 2: and so we need to understand that and make rules 380 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 2: that aren't going to infringe upon the way this technology operates, 381 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 2: you know, the BSA and AML. It's a long story, 382 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 2: but it's and it's complicated, but the easiest way to 383 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 2: explain it is, and it goes all the way to 384 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 2: Sam Bankman Freed, actually is Sam bankmin Freed was pushing 385 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 2: this bill over a year ago when FTX was there 386 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 2: and was trying to impose BSA on like DeFi and 387 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 2: Layer two solutions and through this bill and it got 388 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 2: a lot of flack and it ended up blowing up. 389 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 2: But as a result of the whole blow up with 390 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 2: FTX and Sam Bankman Freed, this is an issue that 391 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 2: still hasn't been resolved. And the problem is members and 392 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,959 Speaker 2: staffers are sort of saying and if you think about it, 393 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 2: Mark would be saying to you, hey, we just want 394 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 2: a solution like we have the bitcoin miners do the checking, 395 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 2: like how do we do BSA? And the problem with 396 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 2: that is they're thinking about bs A the way Finsen 397 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 2: operates today and it's not necessarily completely effective. You know, 398 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 2: they want to see all the transactions, and so the 399 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 2: question has been a who's should be responsible? Should it 400 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 2: be the layer two applications that's building on top of 401 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: a blockchain, or should it be the underlying blockchain, you know, 402 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 2: nodes themselves, Should it be the miners and the one 403 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 2: The one thing I point to recently has been to say, 404 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 2: with the new Treasury rule about taxes, if you remember 405 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 2: the crypto tax reporting rules that happened a couple of 406 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: years ago, that the Treasury is now figuring out a 407 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 2: law for how the IRS is going to require Coinbase 408 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 2: and others to do reporting on our taxes when we 409 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 2: do the trading in crypto is you know, it's making 410 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 2: it very clear that nodes and miners aren't part of 411 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 2: that of those individuals that are going to have to 412 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: record these transactions for Finsen, it's ultimately on the on 413 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 2: ramps and off ramps. It's the Coinbase that's going to 414 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 2: have to send my ten ninety nine to the IRS 415 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 2: to let them know what I'm doing. So I think 416 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 2: that there's you know, when you talk about it from 417 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 2: that frame of mind, it's like, well, if they're not 418 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 2: responsible because they don't know who the people are to 419 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,719 Speaker 2: do the tax reporting. Why should they be people responsible 420 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 2: know who's doing the finn sense type stuff that you're 421 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 2: worried about. And so part of the problem is, again 422 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 2: it's the fit for purpose. It's trying to explain this 423 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 2: technology and educating them on the technology and making regulations 424 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 2: that will fit and work with this versus just breaking things. 425 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 2: And right now they're just breaking things because they're not 426 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: taking time to understand the technology. And the other thing 427 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,479 Speaker 2: is why we should just apply everything we have from 428 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 2: the old world of financial institutions to this new world 429 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 2: that we are excited to be in. 430 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: So the angle is more like, hey, the US has 431 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: benefited from technology and progress, and I would agree. I mean, really, 432 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: if you look at what's well, it's not a for debate. 433 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: I mean, just look at the S and P five hundred. 434 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,719 Speaker 1: It's being held up by the set the big stocks 435 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: that are all like tech stocks. Right, So if the 436 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: US didn't have this technology boom over the last twenty 437 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: years in the US, the world the financial markets would 438 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: look much different. And so I guess your angle is 439 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 1: sort of like, hey, look, we've been from the technology 440 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 1: boom the last twenty years. We don't want to miss 441 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: this next one. And if you guys continue to be 442 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: over the regulating, over the aggressive, then what it could 443 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: drive it off shore. I mean that seems to be 444 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: sort of the angle more than like a freedom standpoint. 445 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, more more driving off shore. I mean from the 446 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 2: freedom standpoint, that's important too, and that resonates with like 447 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 2: really the Republican side of the aisle. 448 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: And but it's because free because freedom is such right 449 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: wing thing now. 450 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 2: You know, whether we like it or not. Like the 451 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 2: people really talking about bitcoin have been actually Patrick McHenry 452 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 2: who's the acting chair, you know, he did he actually 453 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 2: went around and talked to other congressional members and did 454 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 2: podcasts with them about bitcoin back in twenty seventeen, and 455 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 2: he was going on CNBC. He you know, he really 456 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,719 Speaker 2: they carried the message because they saw it as that 457 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 2: freedom money, and we just didn't see that on the 458 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 2: other side of the aisle. In fact, that's actually it's 459 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 2: interesting that we're talking about this because that's actually one 460 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 2: of the biggest problems that the Progressive Democrats and Warren 461 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 2: have with bitcoin and also the Squad and everybody else, 462 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 2: is because to them, they understand what bitcoin's trying to do. 463 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 2: It's trying to do freedom money right. And I've talked 464 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 2: to the Progressives. I talked to their offices about this too, 465 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 2: But what they don't like is they say, well, this 466 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 2: is correct. We need to have some kind of money 467 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 2: where the government isn't going to get in the way 468 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: of minorities or all this kind of thing. But it 469 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 2: shouldn't come from somebody in Silicon Valley. It shouldn't be 470 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 2: a technology like bitcoin. It should be the Federal Reserve 471 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 2: and J. Powell and the White House and Treasury and 472 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,719 Speaker 2: Janet Yellen that figures out the solution for our people, 473 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 2: not you. And that's where that's where you can't really 474 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 2: talk about the freedom money with them. And that's why 475 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 2: they're pushing back so hard against crypto because in there. 476 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 1: Well, but then what's the angle, right, So like I 477 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: get that push and that's sort of what the BIS 478 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: is selling saying. And that's what even you know Reguard 479 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: at the ECB, which by the way, there's another big 480 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 1: piece of news coming out of the ECB as well 481 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: about bitcoin and crypto or I should stay CBDCs. But 482 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: what the BIS is selling saying is that it should 483 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: come from the government. All money they're saying comes from 484 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: the government, and the bs pecically says that we need 485 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: the trust of the central banks, but that's actually completely false. 486 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: So first of all, nobody trust the central banks. Second 487 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: of all, we were really only in this like fifty 488 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: year experiment of feet money. If you look past fifty years, 489 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: you see that it had been gold, that had been 490 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: money for five thousand years, and really it was commodity money. 491 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: So it was gold, but even further back it was feathers, rock, seashells, 492 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: so it was never government money. It was always a 493 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: commodity that the market had chosen. So other than this 494 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 1: fifty year experiment, that's actually not false. I mean, could 495 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 1: you use any history on them or no. 496 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 2: I could. I'll tell you though, that even though there's 497 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 2: agreement how exciting this technology is, when you get into 498 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 2: monetary policy, you're entering like the whole new world and 499 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 2: the things. When we saw Biden's executive order two years ago, 500 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 2: right about digital assets in the US, you have to 501 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 2: remember at that time that was the Federal Reserve, the 502 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 2: Treasury in the White House basically decided a few things 503 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 2: about our space. They decided that we the government need 504 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 2: to set monetary policy, that we need to regulate the 505 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 2: safety and soundness of any financial transactions and financial institutions, 506 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 2: as well as protect consumers and also protect against illicit 507 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 2: transactions or in this case when terrorists are using the money. 508 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 2: And so this sort of falls in that third bucket 509 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 2: of where the government feels they have that requirement. So 510 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: even people that support bitcoin marks would actually hold back 511 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 2: and actually believe that the central bank is that we 512 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 2: need to rely on. 513 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and ultimately it's that last piece that you said, 514 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: which is prevent bad people from using it, and so 515 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 1: the balance is always like, well, freedom but bad people. 516 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 1: If you just tune in, you're listening to the Mark 517 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: Moss Show. I'm sitting down with Jason Brett. We're talking 518 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: about regulations in the bitcoin crypto space. We're back with 519 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 1: more a minute. Don't go away, be right back, all right, 520 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: Welcome back. If you're just tune in, you're listening to 521 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 1: the Mark Moas Show, and we are talking about some 522 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: late breaking news that's happened in the cryptocurrency space. In 523 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: the fog of war, if you'll call it that, you know, 524 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: we were talking about some of this kind of pushback 525 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: that you have when you're lobbying for this the other 526 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: thing I would think is that they're all pushing for 527 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: this financial inclusion, right, and that's like this big piece 528 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: you can see in the ECB, the BIS, and they 529 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: think that if we make money digital, then there'll be 530 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: more financial inclusion. But maybe they don't realize that actually 531 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: most of the exclusion comes because you have to have 532 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: permission to join, and the permission isn't able to be 533 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: given for any number of reasons, whether there's no ide 534 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 1: from your fleeing a country to your a kid that 535 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: grew up in Iran and they're sanctions or whatever it 536 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: may be. So we have two billion adults in the world, 537 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: maybe that numbers come down a little bit who have 538 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: no access to banking, and the majority of that is 539 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 1: because they don't have permission to join. And so even 540 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: if the central bank whichever central bank you want to say, 541 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: does provide us with this digital money that should provide 542 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: for more inclusion, it's actually going to be less inclusion, 543 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: less than we even have with cash, right, I mean, 544 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: what about that angle? 545 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and that's where you can talk a 546 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: little bit about the fact that I mean, in two 547 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 2: thousand and nine, bitcoin came out with the first idea 548 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 2: of digital cash where we're able to have a system 549 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 2: of money that works that way. I will say in 550 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 2: the US, like particularly Tom Emmer, who's the majority Whip 551 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 2: and Republican, has been pushing back on the idea of 552 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 2: a CBDC. So I should mention there's been some anti 553 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 2: CBDC legislation in the US that has a lot of 554 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 2: Republican support. It's it's really this concern of they're seeing 555 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 2: what China did with the CBDC and the question of, 556 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 2: you know, we don't want financial surveillance to be part 557 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 2: of our society. So when we get to the CBDC 558 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 2: in the US, it isn't necessarily in the Christine Legard, 559 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: Hey let's go all in on this digital euro thing. 560 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 2: There's a lot of people pushing back on it regarding 561 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 2: sort of the Federal Reserve and where they're looking at 562 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 2: this this kind of money. Now, I think that for 563 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 2: CBDCs there they're looking at, you know that versus sort 564 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 2: of stable coins and what what digital money looks like. 565 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 2: And essentially for them, they're stuck in the paradigm of 566 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 2: you need to have it be a liability against the 567 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 2: central bank, which you know I mentioned before, Like I 568 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 2: was a regulator at the FDAC during a financial crisis 569 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 2: in two thousand eight, two thousand and nine. That's at 570 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 2: least where my eyes started to get open when the 571 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 2: Federal Reserve just started increasing their balance sheet sort of 572 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 2: you know, mint money into the world. And the question 573 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 2: is it's kind of scary at least when I hear 574 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 2: you say that, market to think like, okay, what does 575 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 2: a central bank do? Now, let's do this digital money. 576 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 2: Is this going to be like Federal Reserve on steroids, right? 577 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 2: Or is there going to be like things They're going 578 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 2: to go into people's central bank digital currency accounts and 579 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 2: start charging interest when they want us to prod to spend, spend, spend, 580 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 2: you know, that's the thing they've talked about. I mean, 581 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 2: the Central Bank has openly talked about how to improve 582 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 2: the lower bound and do things like interest on Can 583 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 2: you imagine if you had one hundred central bank digital 584 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 2: currency dollars in your wallet and all of a sudden 585 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 2: one day you see a flash saying you got to 586 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 2: spend or we're going to take two dollars out by 587 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 2: the end of your month, you know what I mean? 588 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 2: So right, Yeah, it's dangerous. 589 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, super scary. I want to jump I want to 590 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: jump conversations for a minute and talk about another piece 591 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: maybe you're sort of hearing about or being involved with, 592 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: which is sort of this delayed decision from the SEC 593 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: on a bitcoin ETF. I'm a little bit confused. It 594 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: seems to me that you have like this Gary Gensler, 595 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren potentially sort of Abamba Biden coalition over here 596 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: that are really just like anti tech. They're just like 597 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: trying to shoot down anything techno technology overall. And in 598 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,959 Speaker 1: regard to the Bitcoin ETF, I mean Gensler, it seems 599 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: like what they're saying why they're denying these ETFs is 600 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: because they can't verify or certify that there's not a 601 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: lot of fraud or wash trading going on in these exchanges, 602 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: and so they don't know if the price discovery is 603 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: working properly. Is that really their concern too? Why would 604 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: they allow it in the futures market? And then let's 605 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: start there. 606 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I don't necessarily want to lump Gensler in 607 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 2: with everyone else, because Gensler's had his own sort of 608 00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 2: crusade about crypto, specifically in bitcoin, and I think there's 609 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 2: a very good reason to believe that. The reason we've 610 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 2: been delayed with these ETFs is yes, there's some possibility 611 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 2: for manipulation of price, but there really isn't any good reason, 612 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 2: as you said, if we have a future's ETF, why 613 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 2: we can't have a spot ETF. And my opinion on 614 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 2: that is I think it relates to Gensler's concerns about 615 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 2: the environment and the bitcoin mining energy that goes into it. 616 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 2: And you know Gensler is he doesn't if he were 617 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 2: to approve a bitcoin ETF, even though if he has 618 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 2: everything in front of him to say, yeah, let's approve it, 619 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 2: it's just going to sit on his desk because you know, 620 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 2: Biden's administration is like very much you know, climate friendly, 621 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 2: and anything that's going to hurt the climate, that's like 622 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 2: their number one priority. And Bitcoin kind of erupted into 623 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 2: this thing that supposedly hits against Biden's climate goals. So 624 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 2: there's a political reasons why I think we're not yet 625 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 2: seeing that ETF approved by Gensler. Gensler's a little bit 626 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 2: of a rare perth. 627 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: Do you think Gensler's in your opinion, do you think 628 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: it's more about Gensler trying to kind of err on 629 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: the side of climate and bitcoin being bad. Whi's why 630 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: he won't approve an ETF for. 631 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,959 Speaker 2: That err on the side of caution, like using climate 632 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 2: as an example. Because Gensler is looking, at least some 633 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 2: people are report he's looking to maybe be the next 634 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 2: Treasury secretary, so he's he doesn't want to do anything 635 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 2: that's going to hurt him in the Biden administration, so 636 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 2: he if he were to approve a bitcoin ETF, and 637 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 2: Warren would probably come down on him like a ton 638 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 2: of bricks. So there's no good reason why we don't 639 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 2: yet have a bitcoin ETF. There should be one. There's 640 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 2: no question we have a future's one. There's bitcoin ETFs 641 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 2: that function in other countries. If to me, there's just 642 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 2: no good reason why we don't have it yet. I 643 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 2: think you're seeing him go through the motions. My take 644 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 2: probably wouldn't be popular because I don't think you're actually 645 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 2: going to see an ETF approved at least in this year. 646 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 2: I think it won't be till late twenty twenty four, 647 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 2: n till Gensler's out of the office, because I don't 648 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 2: think it's something he just wants to do. 649 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: Wow, that's pretty big. Well, if he keeps up with it, 650 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: he's going to be out of office sooner than he thinks. 651 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I know there's a lot of pushback to 652 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 1: Gary Ginsler. There's calls for his resignation. There's even calls 653 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: to restructure the SEC so that they don't even have 654 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: a chair anymore, and now it's just more more limited. 655 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, at the rate he's at, I think that's 656 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: very interesting, and I guess this might be the next 657 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: thing to jump into. I hadn't planned this, but I 658 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: had never thought that that. You know, maybe Gary gins 659 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: was thinking about bitcoin being bad for the environment, So 660 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,439 Speaker 1: I'm not going to prove that. He seems like he's 661 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: been very pro bitcoin. Obviously, he was teaching an MIT back, 662 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,919 Speaker 1: you know, many many years ago. And to even think 663 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: that's an issue that, I mean, he's not there for 664 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: the freaking climate, man, He's there for protecting consumers from securities. 665 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 1: Like that's it, Like that should not even be part 666 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: of his thinking, which, by the way, that's what lots 667 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: of states are now filing lawsuits where you shouldn't be 668 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: able to or they want a ban banks from using 669 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: that as part of the decision criteria. Look, you're there 670 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: for this very narrow specific piece protecting consumers, which you've 671 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: done a horrible job at. Look at FTX you probably 672 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: step down in disgrace. But this is what you're there for, 673 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: not climate. But I'm curious and we're running out of 674 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 1: time here. But it seems like the narrative around this 675 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: is rapidly shifting to me and where bitcoin is now 676 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: starting to like, oh, we could fix all of our 677 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: energy grid situations. And as a matter of fact, AI 678 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: uses way more energy than bitcoin does. Have you started 679 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: to see some sort of a shift there. 680 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of progress, and a lot of 681 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 2: the traditional groups like Greenpeace and others are not happy 682 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 2: about it. There's been some pushback frustration, but it does 683 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,760 Speaker 2: mean that I think we're winning on this idea of 684 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 2: how bitcoin can really help with balancing the grid. It's 685 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 2: important to remember and if you look at Gensler's agenda, 686 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 2: one of his agenda is the climate thing, and the 687 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 2: Republicans in the House Financial Services Committee have been pushing 688 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 2: back hard on that, saying just what you're saying, Mark, 689 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 2: like no, like we're it's not about the climate, it's 690 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 2: about the economy, you know, and so I think that, yeah, 691 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 2: there's there's definitely reason why I think you might see 692 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 2: Gensler start to decide maybe if you know, the black 693 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 2: Rock and everything sort of is lining up where maybe 694 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 2: he's going to be forced to sort of approve one 695 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,720 Speaker 2: of these ETFs, and he might do that because remember 696 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 2: Biden's running, you know, for president twenty four and if 697 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 2: he wants to be part of that ticket or part 698 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 2: of the you know club, he's going to have to 699 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 2: show he is somewhat friendly because it isn't just crypto 700 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,439 Speaker 2: that that people are frustrated with Gensler about. Like you said, 701 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 2: they want to change the whole SEC and it relates 702 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 2: to just some broader market stuff that he's done. 703 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. Boy, that's we've covered a lot of ground. I 704 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: didn't really anticipate going this direction, but we have to 705 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: cover where the news is at. If you're just tuning 706 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: in your listening to the Mark Mass Show, always breaking 707 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: down the decentralized revolution. I've been in studio with Jason Brett, 708 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:58,240 Speaker 1: government affairs lobbyist for biitcoin, crypto and blockchain technology. Hopefully 709 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: enjoyed it. Let me know, se me a comment on 710 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 1: social media and let me know what you think, and 711 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: that's what we got for today. Thanks so much for listening.