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Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, welcome back to Killers amongst Us,

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Speaker 1: the production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online. You ever work

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Speaker 1: out at the gem and look around and wonder who

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Speaker 1: are those people? Who's pushing those weights, who's lifting free weights,

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Speaker 1: who's looking in the gym mirrors? Of course they always

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Speaker 1: have the mirrors all the way around, like it or not.

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Speaker 1: Who's in your aerobics or spin class, your yoga class.

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Speaker 1: You think you know them? But do you I? Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is Killers amongst Us. We left off talking about

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Speaker 1: this gorgeous girl, Ellen Greenberg. Just beautiful on the outside

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Speaker 1: and the inside. I'm always struck by her long, shiny

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Speaker 1: black hair and a perfect smile like a picket fence.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen. Greenberg's personal life was going just as

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Speaker 1: well as her teaching career. Greenberg lived in an apartment

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Speaker 1: with her boyfriend, Samuel Goldberg. He was a television producer

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Speaker 1: for NBC. In fact, the pair were engaged and planning

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Speaker 1: a wedding. Save the Date cards had just been sent

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Speaker 1: to guests. Friends tell Oxygen. Greenberg was all smiles. We

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Speaker 1: all received the saved the date in the mail. I

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Speaker 1: remember calling her on the phone saying, Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: they're so beautiful, and she was so excited joining me.

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Speaker 1: Sandy Greenberg, Ellen's mom, her dad Josh Daryl Cohen, former

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Speaker 1: prosecutor now defense attorney with Cohen Cooper E. Stepan Allen,

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Speaker 1: doctor Angela Arnold Psychiatrists out of Atlanta at Angela Arnold

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Speaker 1: MD dot com. Tom Brennan, private investigator on Team Ellen,

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Speaker 1: and you can find him at Tom Brennan Consulting dot com.

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Speaker 1: And joining US crime reporter for the Philadelphia Inquiry were

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Speaker 1: Stephanie far And on Twitter, She's far far away to ours.

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Speaker 1: Fr R. Everyone, thank you for being with us. We

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Speaker 1: were just talking about save the dates. And I just

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Speaker 1: can't think of a happier time in my life than

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Speaker 1: when I finally decided to get married, other than when

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Speaker 1: I had my twins. But the excitement and the joy

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Speaker 1: of knowing I was starting a whole new chapter was

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Speaker 1: someone that I loved. Sandy, do you remember when Alan

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Speaker 1: first told you they were getting married. I remember it vividly.

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Speaker 1: She was so excited. She was with Sam in California

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Speaker 1: and they pulled over along the coastline. They were taking

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Speaker 1: the drive, and he bent down on one knee and proposed,

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Speaker 1: and in some of the media you can see a

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Speaker 1: picture of her in a Jeane jacket holding her hand

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Speaker 1: up with the ring. She just was over the moon.

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Speaker 1: That's the photo that I'm looking at right now, And

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Speaker 1: now that you tell me what it is, I recognize it.

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Speaker 1: Did you say it was on Pacific One, that beautiful

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Speaker 1: coastal drive? Exactly? Oh, beautiful, beautiful and it goes for

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Speaker 1: miles and miles and miles. When did she call you

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Speaker 1: and tell you about it? Well, there was a time difference. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember. Do you remember that called Josh Greenberg

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Speaker 1: when she called and said, guess what, I'm engaged? Not really,

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Speaker 1: because that was really between the mother and daughter. I'm

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Speaker 1: the father. I'm sort of out on the outs on

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Speaker 1: some of these things, if you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Some Josh, you sound just like my husband. Things I'm

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Speaker 1: in and some things I'm just not. And then I

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Speaker 1: learned when to keep my mouth shut when I'm not. Oh, well,

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Speaker 1: you know what, that's a very valuable lesson. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to have you teach one on one with my husband.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if I can afford that kind

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Speaker 1: of lesson, because again, that is invaluable that would break

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Speaker 1: the bank to get him to learn that. So you say,

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Speaker 1: Josh Greenberg, you've actually learned to keep your mouth shut?

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Speaker 1: Is that true, Sandy, because I'm having a hard time

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Speaker 1: believing that a husband has learned to keep his mouth shut.

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Speaker 1: Don't break in, Darryl Cohen, I learned a long time ago.

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Speaker 1: He broke in. I said, don't break any broke in, Sandy.

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Speaker 1: Go ahead, let's ignore Darryl's root interruptions. We just have

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Speaker 1: a joke between us that he's going to get a

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Speaker 1: big roll of duct tape and keep it right in

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Speaker 1: front of him to put it over his face so

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Speaker 1: well control himself. And Josh, I'm sure she means that

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Speaker 1: in a loving, caring way. Secret. Now, guys, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about this beautiful girl. I call her a girl. She's

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Speaker 1: twenty seven. She's a fantastic teacher, and she just gets

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Speaker 1: engaged and is sending out the save the dates, you know.

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Speaker 1: And that's why I think doctor Angela Arnold Psychiatrists joining

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Speaker 1: us at the Atlanta Jurisdiction, the dichotomy, the juxtaposition of

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Speaker 1: that happy moment in her life then followed so brutally

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Speaker 1: that life cut short guys, take listen to our friends

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Speaker 1: at doctor Oz. She was at home with her fiance

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Speaker 1: until four or forty five pm, when he reportedly went

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Speaker 1: to the gym in their apartment comedies. When he arrived

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Speaker 1: back to the apartment less than an hour later, he

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Speaker 1: says he found the apartment locks from the inside. He

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Speaker 1: claims he banged on the door and received no response.

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Speaker 1: Over the next twenty two minutes, he would try to

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Speaker 1: convince Ellen to open the door through text messages. I'm

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Speaker 1: just curious. I know that was a snow day, but

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Speaker 1: is that why Ellen was at home, Josh, She was

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Speaker 1: home from school. The scene, it was one of those

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Speaker 1: nor reasons. And yes, Ellen had come home early. Ellen

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Speaker 1: had filled up her car with gas. Ellen had called

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Speaker 1: various various parents, excuse me, to make sure that the

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Speaker 1: children went home, because she was an elementary school teacher,

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Speaker 1: and these are young children from the Juniana School in Philadelphia.

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Speaker 1: And that's the scene that sets the scene. Sandy probably

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Speaker 1: had a conversation with Ellen earlier in the day because

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Speaker 1: they speak every day. But basically, it was a snowstorm,

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Speaker 1: the school was closing. Ellen puld guess in her car

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Speaker 1: in case she needed it, and Ellen made sure her

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Speaker 1: students got home. I'm just thinking about her taking time

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Speaker 1: to call the students. You know, I want to go

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Speaker 1: to Sandy Greenberg and guys, yes, I know, all of

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Speaker 1: you busy people. I'm digressing, But you know, Sandy Greenberg,

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Speaker 1: we had a teacher that really took an interest and

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Speaker 1: the twins. And she was a short little thing, but

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Speaker 1: she was a strict disciplinarian. A lot of students were

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Speaker 1: afraid of her, but particularly she would slip my son

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Speaker 1: extra reading assignments. And I'm like, I said, John, David,

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Speaker 1: do you think that possibly we need to work on

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Speaker 1: your reading skills? And he said, oh no, Mom, these

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Speaker 1: are just for fun. Well, one of them was about

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Speaker 1: a little tiny lighthouse in New York. Can I tell

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Speaker 1: you how long it took us to find the quote

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Speaker 1: little red lighthouse underneath the bridge. I can't remember where

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Speaker 1: the thing was, and it was, of course not a

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Speaker 1: tourist destination. We had to get out of the cab

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Speaker 1: we were in, walked down this rocky hill to get

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Speaker 1: down there, and nearly kill myself, but I was trying

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Speaker 1: to act like, you know, I'm happy Vivacia's mom, And

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Speaker 1: so we get down and it really was. It couldn't

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Speaker 1: have been taller than thirty feet, a little red lighthouse.

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Speaker 1: And my point is that when we took a picture

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Speaker 1: of it, we sent it to her. When they got

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Speaker 1: back to school, she had for John, David and Lucy

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Speaker 1: each a little lighthouse key chain that lit up. And

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Speaker 1: do you know they still talk about that. That was

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Speaker 1: I think in either the first or second grade. How

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Speaker 1: much a teacher can mean to a student. Sandy. And

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Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about your daughter, Ellen calling, trying to

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Speaker 1: get each one of these parents to say, hey, it's

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Speaker 1: just snow day, your child's coming home. You know, we're

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Speaker 1: looking if we get a text. I mean that takes

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Speaker 1: love and devotion, Sandy. Well, it also is part of

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Speaker 1: her constitution that she was very responsible and very attentive

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Speaker 1: and you know, took care of everyone before she found

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Speaker 1: her way home. So she's home early that day. Now,

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Speaker 1: how is it fiance, who also lives there, goes to

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Speaker 1: the gym, he comes back, the door is locked from

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Speaker 1: the inside, so he can't get back. Kay, what jump in?

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I have

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Speaker 1: her guest receipt. She filled up her car. It was

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Speaker 1: on January twenty sixth at one twenty six that's when

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Speaker 1: she was filling up her car, so she was home

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Speaker 1: maybe five minutes later in terms of a timeline. As

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Speaker 1: far as we know, Nancy, the door was locked. You

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Speaker 1: weren't there, I wasn't there. The fiance was there alone.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't escorted. So we don't even know if the

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Speaker 1: door was locked. We don't know if the whole thing

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Speaker 1: was a set up for lack of a bitter term,

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Speaker 1: maybe the door wasn't locked. You know, I've been thinking

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Speaker 1: about that very same thing, because that's the oldest trick

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Speaker 1: in the book. Even my son can figure that out

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Speaker 1: in murder mysteries, that the first person to the scene

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Speaker 1: adjusts whether the door is locked or unlocked. And then

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Speaker 1: if they break the door down, who's to know if

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Speaker 1: that inside lot was or was not locked. So explain

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Speaker 1: to me you had been to her apartment. Josh explained

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Speaker 1: to me, what do we mean by the door was

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Speaker 1: lot from the inside, because if it's just a little

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Speaker 1: you know, the door candle, a lot where you push

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Speaker 1: a button you can kick the door has swing lock.

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Speaker 1: Swing lock is the type of lock you see when

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Speaker 1: you go to a hotel. It swings out. It's not

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Speaker 1: a bolt, a dead bolt. If you go on YouTube

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Speaker 1: or like there, they will show you how to lock

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Speaker 1: that swing lock from outside the door, so it appears

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Speaker 1: like it was locked. There was also pictures that the

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Speaker 1: Medical Examiner's team took of the lock. The lock is

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Speaker 1: not deformed one. When you have us lock that goes

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Speaker 1: in the door and the frame. There are two screws

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Speaker 1: in the doors, screws on the frame. Now one screw

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Speaker 1: is missing, but there weren't even any chips on the

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Speaker 1: floor from the lock being destroyed or the screw being removed.

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Speaker 1: So the screw probably, and this is just a guess

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Speaker 1: on my part, I'm not an expert, was just unscrewed

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Speaker 1: to look like it was broken into. So we don't

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Speaker 1: really know that that the lock was ever damaged or

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Speaker 1: dismembered or taken off the door. So the whole thing

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Speaker 1: we are now saying about the door being locked just

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Speaker 1: came to me as we discussed this. We don't know

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Speaker 1: that none of us were there, you know, I want

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Speaker 1: to focus just for a moment on what Josh Greenberg

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Speaker 1: has just said to Tom Brennan, private investigator who was

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Speaker 1: on team Allen Greenberg, as many of us are to

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Speaker 1: try to find the truth of what happened that day.

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Speaker 1: Tom My son and daughter and I and husband. We

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Speaker 1: dragged him along with us. Watch murder mysteries all the time.

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Speaker 1: So while they're not graphic, so the children won't be afraid.

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Speaker 1: Tom Brennan, it's to the point now even my thirteen

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Speaker 1: year old twins before they turned thirteen, could say, oh,

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Speaker 1: the guy that came to the scene, that door wasn't locked.

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Speaker 1: He didn't have to really break in. So that's kind

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Speaker 1: of an check of the trade, Tom Brennan. But I

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Speaker 1: actually had not thought of that until Josh brought it up.

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Speaker 1: There's in the apartment in the locks where the where

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Speaker 1: Ellen and Sam lived. There are security cameras located in

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Speaker 1: different different areas throughout the apartment building, but there aren't

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Speaker 1: any in the hall. So if in fact the door

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Speaker 1: was in fact locked or unlocked, we don't know. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that. Take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: friends in the Philadelphia District Attorney's office. There are some

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Speaker 1: video in this particular apartment complex. The video does not show, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: the whole way where Ellen lived, but the video does

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Speaker 1: show the entrance to the basilie as well as the

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Speaker 1: card or the hallway leading into the gym. It's not

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Speaker 1: a fantastic video, but it does show that, in addition

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Speaker 1: to that, you need a key fob to enter the building,

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Speaker 1: and if I remember correctly, you need a key fob

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Speaker 1: to enter the gym, and I remember looking at if

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Speaker 1: I recall properly, and I think that I am that

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Speaker 1: both the video surveillance as well as the key fob

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Speaker 1: does show him going into the gym in or around

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Speaker 1: five h one pm. He was at the gym for

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Speaker 1: approximately thirty minutes, give or take, so leaves the apartment

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Speaker 1: around five maybe four fifty nine five pm, takes the

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Speaker 1: elevator downstairs, goes to the gym and is there for

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Speaker 1: approximately twenty nine or thirty minutes, and then returns back

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Speaker 1: to the apartments. Guys, you're hearing the former Philly Ada

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Speaker 1: guy DeAndrea on his YouTube channel. Now wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: he got a whole workout in and under thirty minutes.

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Speaker 1: Must have been one of those speed circuit training things.

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Speaker 1: So as you go ahead, video depicts him going back

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Speaker 1: up to the apartment from the gym, coming back down,

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Speaker 1: walking over to the area where the concierge is picking

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Speaker 1: up some mail. He's reading some some some mail. As

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Speaker 1: he gets back on the elevator, goes back upstairs. I'm

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Speaker 1: back down again, walks around on his cell phone, talking

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Speaker 1: on his cell phone, goes back up on the elevator.

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Speaker 1: So this takes about an out. Wow. Tom Brennan, private

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Speaker 1: investigator with Tom Brennan Consulting dot Com. You know that's

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Speaker 1: not the way I understood it. And I'm not saying

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Speaker 1: you're wrong. I'm saying I didn't understand all those facts

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Speaker 1: because I thought after his twenty nine minute workout, which

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Speaker 1: I would love to see what that was. They have

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Speaker 1: video in the Jim, But I thought he went straight

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Speaker 1: up to the apartment, couldn't get in, banged on the door,

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Speaker 1: came down to the doorman, or as you said, concierge

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Speaker 1: tried to get him to help open the door. He

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Speaker 1: wouldn't help for various reasons, and that the fiance goes

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Speaker 1: back up and then breaks the door down. If you

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Speaker 1: don't mind, if you could explain that very carefully, Josh Greenberg,

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Speaker 1: this is Ellen's dad. I'm hearing what Tom Brennan is saying.

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Speaker 1: That's the first time I've heard that scenario. What does

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Speaker 1: the video show, Josh, Well, let Tom will continue. That's

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Speaker 1: really his specialty. Yeah, okay, good Tom, tell me exactly

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Speaker 1: one more time, and take it slowly because I'm making notes.

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Speaker 1: Go ahead, Tom, What is the video show? Okay? What

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Speaker 1: the video shows? It picks Sam coming down, getting off

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Speaker 1: the elevator, going into the gym. Fortunately, thirty minutes later

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Speaker 1: he exits egg, gets the gym, gets back on the

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Speaker 1: elevator and goes upstairs. Okay, Then you see him coming

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Speaker 1: back down, walks over towards the concierge desk, goes out

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Speaker 1: of sight. When he comes back into view on the

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Speaker 1: security camera, he has a letter or a piece of

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Speaker 1: paper that he's reading, gets back on the elevator and

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Speaker 1: goes upstairs. A few minutes later, he comes back down,

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Speaker 1: goes over to the concierge. He's out of sight for

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Speaker 1: a while, comes back into view and he's on his

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Speaker 1: cell phone. Then he gets back into the elevator and

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Speaker 1: goes back upstairs. Now, what you have to understand with

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Speaker 1: the swinging the swinging bar lock that was on the

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Speaker 1: door each mounting, there are four screw Well, I've got

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Speaker 1: a question, Tom, Tom hold on before we get to

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Speaker 1: the door lock. I thought he came down and begged

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Speaker 1: the concierge to open up the door because Ellen wouldn't

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Speaker 1: open the door on two different occasions that recording to

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Speaker 1: the concierge. That's what he told me, and the concierge

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Speaker 1: informed him then that it was against company policy and

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Speaker 1: he couldn't help him out. But I didn't hear you

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Speaker 1: describe that on his four trips down. I never heard

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Speaker 1: you say that. The video showed him and going to

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Speaker 1: the concierge and asking the concierge to open the door.

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Speaker 1: Did you when you see him going to the concierge,

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Speaker 1: it just shows him walking towards the area where the

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Speaker 1: concierge is. It doesn't show him talking to the concierge. Wow,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, that's not it all the way I

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Speaker 1: imagined it to Stephanie farr Ashtree, porter with the Philadelphia Inquirer.

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Speaker 1: You can find Stephanie at Far Far Away on Twitter. Stephanie,

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Speaker 1: I thought he went from the gym there in the building,

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Speaker 1: goes upstairs, can't get in, beats on the door, think

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Speaker 1: something's wrong, races back down, goes to the doorman or

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Speaker 1: the concierge frantically going to help me, help me, help me,

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Speaker 1: and goes back up. I'm hearing a completely different scenario,

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Speaker 1: Stephanie far I think that Tom's just saying that he

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Speaker 1: when you can't see him when he gets off the elevator,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it goes out of you when he's

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Speaker 1: in conversation with the concierge. The concierge told me that

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Speaker 1: he came down two or three times to ask him

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Speaker 1: to let him in, and then he was told that

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Speaker 1: it was against company policy, so he couldn't let him.

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Speaker 1: Sandy Greenberg, why was it against company policy for the

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Speaker 1: concierge the doorman to open the door, I honestly don't

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Speaker 1: know the answer, but that's what we were told. So

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Speaker 1: he wasn't able to leave his post. Tom Brennan, is

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Speaker 1: it because was the fiance's name on the lease? Huh? Well,

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Speaker 1: then why would opened the door? According to the concierge,

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Speaker 1: he said to against company policy to do that, and

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Speaker 1: he told Sam Greenberg that he would have to callvisor,

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Speaker 1: and the maintand supervisor was over in New Jersey, so

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Speaker 1: he would have to wait for the maintenance supervisor to

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Speaker 1: return to unlock the door to get in. Wow, Okay.

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Speaker 1: Darrell Cohen, former prosecutor now defense attorney with Cohen Cooper,

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Speaker 1: E step and Allan Daryl. I've never heard of that.

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Speaker 1: And we've been living in our high rise in New

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Speaker 1: York since, oh my goodness, at nineteen ninety seven. So

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Speaker 1: if my husband went to the doorman and said, something

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Speaker 1: is wrong Nancy, since thought she's not coming to the door,

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Speaker 1: get in the door, they would come open the door.

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Speaker 1: I can't even imagine that the concierge, if the conciers

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Speaker 1: had a key and had access, would not open the

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Speaker 1: door considering this young man Allen Siance was on the lease.

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Speaker 1: So that makes zero sense to me. But I guess

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Speaker 1: sometimes logic doesn't control. It is what it is, and

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Speaker 1: it makes no sense. I'm right there with it. You

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Speaker 1: have to understand Dan used his key to open the door.

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Speaker 1: He couldn't get in because the swing bar lock was

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Speaker 1: on the door. Okay, get in unless somebody else decided

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Speaker 1: to get it to let him. So well was I lass?

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Speaker 1: He said I won't do it. Apparently he said I

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Speaker 1: cannot do it, which makes a big difference. Interesting, But

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Speaker 1: you know what, doctor Angela Arnold psychiatrists joining us at

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Speaker 1: Angela Arnold MD dot com. When you look back, it

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Speaker 1: may not have seemed like a big deal at that moment,

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Speaker 1: because if I couldn't get in and David wasn't coming

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Speaker 1: to the door, I would naturally say something was very wrong,

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Speaker 1: because that would be out of his norm. He would

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Speaker 1: absolutely come to the door with me banging on the door.

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Speaker 1: So when you look back in retrospect, I would have

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Speaker 1: expected the fiance to be basically jumping up and down

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Speaker 1: standing on his head. Help me, help me, help me,

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Speaker 1: instead of just walking by. And let me tell everybody,

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Speaker 1: fiance not a suspect or a person of interest. Just

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Speaker 1: just let's get that clear. But it can mean any

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Speaker 1: number of things, doctor Angie, It could and it certainly

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Speaker 1: it doesn't make a bit of sense, does it, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: the way he acted, and so you know it's I mean, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes your actions can't really be explained, can they?

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Speaker 1: And they and they shot a bad light on you.

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Speaker 1: I understand that nobody's pointing any fingers, But we have

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Speaker 1: heard what Sam said to try and entice Ellen's opened

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Speaker 1: the door. Some of the people who have heard it

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Speaker 1: did not feel it was very reassuring, comforting, lovely, lovingly

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Speaker 1: like it was very brutal, like, don't piss me off,

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Speaker 1: open the door. That's what I am under the impression

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Speaker 1: that some of this was said. Don't I'm sorry. Do

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Speaker 1: we know if they had had a fight. I mean,

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Speaker 1: why would he have to entice her to open the

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Speaker 1: door unless they had had a fight that she probably

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Speaker 1: considered brutal. Again, I'm going to say, we don't know

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Speaker 1: if the door was locked, Dewey, but we don't. We

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Speaker 1: do know he opened the door with the key, and

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Speaker 1: allegedly he claims he broke the door to door down.

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Speaker 1: Excuse me. The swing lock, as I have said, had

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Speaker 1: one screw missing, no deformity in the shape of the

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Speaker 1: swing lock or anything like that. No chips of wood

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Speaker 1: on the floor or by the door was clean. Was

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Speaker 1: the door locked? Was the door really locked? We don't know,

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Speaker 1: or was it put in a locked position. Later on, guys,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to former Philadelphia a DA guy DeAndrea

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Speaker 1: on his YouTube channel Listen. He conclusively stated in his

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Speaker 1: signed statement to Philadelphia homicide detectives that he did not

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Speaker 1: go upstairs. In other words, he was not there when

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Speaker 1: the door when entry was made into the apartment. There

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Speaker 1: were some neighbors who lived on that floor who did

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Speaker 1: give statements as well, and they had indicated that for

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Speaker 1: approximately an hour, hour and ten minutes, give or take,

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Speaker 1: they did hear, with the exception of when Sam went

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Speaker 1: downstairs to speak with the security guard. They did hear banging,

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Speaker 1: They heard yelling from Sam into the apartment to have

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Speaker 1: the door opened. And also take a listen to what

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Speaker 1: we learn as it relates to what PI Tom Brennan

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Speaker 1: just told us. Samuel Goldberg, Ellen's fiance went to use

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Speaker 1: the gym in the complex about four or forty five pm.

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Speaker 1: When he came back a half an hour later, he

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Speaker 1: was locked out. The apartment's swing bar lock was engaged

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Speaker 1: from the inside. He banged on the door to no response,

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Speaker 1: so he tried to reach Greenberg using his phone and

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Speaker 1: text messages over the next twenty two minutes. His messages

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Speaker 1: became increasingly frustrated. Here's some of what he texted, Hello,

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Speaker 1: opened the door. What are you doing? I'm getting pissed.

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Speaker 1: You'd better have an excuse. What the fuck you have

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Speaker 1: no idea? Finally, Goldberg goes to the lobby to speak

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Speaker 1: with the loan security guard that night, asking him to

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Speaker 1: help break the lock. The guard refuses, saying it was

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Speaker 1: against policy. At six thirty three pm, Goldberg forces the

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Speaker 1: door opened himself, then calls nine one one from our

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Speaker 1: friends at crime Online. But let me understand, Stephanie far

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Speaker 1: with the Philadelphia Inquirer, Is it correct that he the fiance,

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Speaker 1: say toll cops, he was not there when the door

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Speaker 1: was broken down. No, no, I don't. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that that is correct. According to the documents from a

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Speaker 1: medical advander's office that I read, he said he was

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Speaker 1: the one to break down the door. Those documents initially

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Speaker 1: indicated that the doorman may have been with him when

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Speaker 1: the door was broken down. But given my investigation in

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Speaker 1: Tom's in speaking with the security guard, we know that

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Speaker 1: that's not true, that he remain at his desk the

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Speaker 1: entire time. Okay, so is it you're understanding Tom Brennan

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Speaker 1: that the fiance and the doorman were present when the

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Speaker 1: door was broken out. No, no, no, no, no, that's

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Speaker 1: not what I said. No. The initial reports said that

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Speaker 1: the doorman was present with the fiance when the door

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Speaker 1: was broken down, But when Tom and I interviewed the

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Speaker 1: doorman throughout the course of our investigation, the doorman denied

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Speaker 1: that and said he never left his guard post that night.

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Speaker 1: Somebody's not telling the truth. Possibly, Okay, what everybody has

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Speaker 1: to remember here, Okay, if you're talking about okay, why

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Speaker 1: would Sam call Sandy and Josh before he does anything

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Speaker 1: with anyone? Okay? When he can't make entry into the apartment,

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Speaker 1: Sam called Sandy and Josh on their landline, and Sandy,

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Speaker 1: what did Sam say to you? He said that he

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Speaker 1: was locked out of the apartment and wondering if we

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Speaker 1: had heard from Ellen, which I hadn't spoken with her

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Speaker 1: since you know, seven nih that morning because he couldn't

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Speaker 1: get in. And I said, oh, well, maybe she's drying

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Speaker 1: her hair. I'm sure, you know, give it a little

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Speaker 1: time and you know, try again. Then I don't hear

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Speaker 1: anything until I get a call from Sam's father later

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Speaker 1: that evening that something terrible happened to Ellie. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: the last thing I would think I'm doing. Why would

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Speaker 1: I'm at the New York apartment and David's inside and

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Speaker 1: I can't get in, the last thing I would think

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Speaker 1: of doing is calling his family back home in Georgia

425
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: and saying, hey, I can't get in the door. I'm

426
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: not sure what that's all about. What were you saying,

427
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: Tom Brennan. You know, if you want to talk about

428
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: weird okay, and you want to talk about behavior, why

429
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 1: would an individual who can't get in the apartment instead

430
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 1: of yelling, hey, honey opened the freaking door? Okay? Why

431
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 1: would he call her parents? I'll tell you why? Is

432
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: what I speculated earlier there was they had a fight

433
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 1: and he wanted to call her parents to see whether

434
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: or not she was that mad, that livid about whatever

435
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: it is they thought about. Thank you very much, Daryl.

436
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: You know, Daryl, as I said earlier with me, former

437
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: prosecutor now veteran defense attorney, trial lawyer, Daryl Cohen Darryl.

438
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: As I just mentioned earlier, the fiance has not been named,

439
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: a person of interest, has not been named. A suspect

440
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 1: in this case certainly has not been charged. And I'll

441
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: tell you why. Do you remember, Daryl, the Julie Love

442
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: a murder case? Absolutely? Do you know Julie Love, This

443
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: gorgeous physical therapy type Jim teacher at a pre k

444
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 1: is out jogging coincidentally near my apartment at the time

445
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 1: in Atlanta, and goes missing, can't find her. Time passes.

446
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: Of course everybody knows at that point she's dead, and

447
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: but we can't find her. You know how many times

448
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: I went to our boss then Darryl. You and I

449
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: both served under Lewis Slayton, the longest serving district attorney

450
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: in the country at that time, nearly forty years elected.

451
00:28:55,240 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: And I said, well, we're not indicting the boy for what.

452
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: Can I please have this case? Can I please innate

453
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: the boyfriend? Can I putt? And he just was like no, no,

454
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: It was just waked. And of course he was seasoned,

455
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: and I had been in the office a year. Maybe,

456
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: well guess what he was right as time passed, As

457
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: it happened, coincidentally, a girlfriend totally unrelated had been beaten

458
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: up by her boyfriend. She called cops. She was so

459
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: afraid the boyfriend would kill her because she called the cops.

460
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: She rid it out that he saw Julie Love with

461
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: some of his friends. They picked her up, raped her,

462
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: murdered her. The only thing that was found of her

463
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: body where the girl friend directed was way out and

464
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: he's bubble buck outside of Atlanta. There was a glass eye.

465
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: Nobody even knew that Julie Love had a glass eye,

466
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: and I believe a bone or two that was what

467
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,719
Speaker 1: was left. Now, what a fine mess, what a fine

468
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: kettle of fish would have had, Daryl Cohen if anybody

469
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: had listened to me and others in the DA's office. So,

470
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: you can't leap to a prosecution until you've got the goods.

471
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: And I learned that I was still drawing up indictments.

472
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: I hadn't even been in the courtroom yet. I had

473
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: no idea what I was talking about. So Daryl, you

474
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: have to have the evidence before you can go forward. Well, actually, Dan,

475
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: so you had a great idea, and that made perfect

476
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: logical sense. Fortunately, Lewis knew better than all of us

477
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: and said, let's just wait. And his intuition, his knowledge,

478
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: his expertise was right and it was spot on. Man.

479
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: I miss him. I miss him, and his certainly saved

480
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: her ex boyfriend from dying from the EPP and justice

481
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: is an aside, Darrel. Did you know fast forward like

482
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: seven years that perp in that case was Herbert Cornell Stevens,

483
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: as you'll recall, and was convicted in the murder of

484
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: Julie Love. Seven years later, I prosecuted Cornell Stephens first

485
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: cousin for a murder, So I guess it ran in

486
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: the family. Back to this guy's Sandy, Josh, Doctor, Angie, Tom, Stephanie.

487
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: You probably, Stephanie, have the same thing at your job

488
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: at the Philadelphia Inquirer. This is what happens when you're

489
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: analyzing a case. You go totally off topic, and then

490
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: you come back. My point being, everybody always suspects the husband,

491
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: the boyfriend, the lover at the get go statistically, because

492
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: statistically it's them. Not true in every case. But I

493
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: am having a problem with the inconsistencies Josh Greenberg, because

494
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: I've already spotted several of them. There are a number.

495
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: I believe mister Goldberg said that he was accompanied to

496
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: the door when he broke it down, and I Stephanie

497
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: has said, and I believe Thomas said. We have spoken

498
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: with the concierge, front desk person whatever, and he has

499
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: signed a We've I don't know, we've got a legal document.

500
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: I don't know what it's called exactly where he and

501
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: Affiday would be good. He will also probably be spoken

502
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: to with my attorney to get with our attorney to

503
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: get a formal I can't remember the name, somebody's legal

504
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 1: namest position or whatever. That he did not accompany mister

505
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: Goldberg to the door. Again, if you look at the lock,

506
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: the lock doesn't show damage. The swing lock, it doesn't

507
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: show any damage. In fact, a local TV stations lawyers

508
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: took it off the air before it was presented because

509
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: it was so so incriminating that the lock was not

510
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: damaged by the testimony of whoever said he broke the

511
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: lock down. We don't know if that lock was ever

512
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: engaged before Sam entered that apartment, since we don't have

513
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: any knowledge of a response to Ellen by saying something

514
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: to the voicemails that Tom Tom that Sam was saying

515
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: to her, maybe she was not able to answer, or

516
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: maybe she didn't want to answer. We don't know. We

517
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: just don't know, but there are no answers. And as

518
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: you've heard by that piece that you ran, the tone

519
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: was not that of loving, caring, etc. Also, Sam had

520
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: been on his cell phone periodically before he came up there.

521
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: I believe Tom said it wasn't like he was just

522
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: walking around looking at the stars. He was talking to

523
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: people on a cell phone. Well, you don't know if

524
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,479
Speaker 1: there were people there for him to talk to her.

525
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: What we was talking to there are tremendous things don't

526
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: make sense. Whoever, and however, that door was finally broken down.

527
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 1: Although you see no chipping, no wood, flex no nothing,

528
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,439
Speaker 1: the locks still intact. Take a listen to what we learned.

529
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: Here's our friend, doctor Oz. At six thirty three pm,

530
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 1: her fiance says he forced open the door to find

531
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: Ellen dead on the floor of the kitchen. She stabbed

532
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: twenty times in the chest, neck, and head. It was

533
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: a knife still lodged in her chest. Ellen was pronounced

534
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: dead at six forty pm. Investigators evaluating the scene and

535
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 1: her autopsy ultimately stated that she died by suicide. There

536
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: were no obvious signs of an intruder or evidence of

537
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 1: a struggle. There was no suicide. I don't understand. How

538
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: can you possibly, doctor Angel Arnold, you're the MD, I'm

539
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: just a JD. But how can you possibly stab yourselves

540
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: yourself twenty times and the chest, the neck, and the head.

541
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: How can you do that? Nancy? We all know that

542
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: you can't. That's completely impossible, especially doctor Angie. Take a

543
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: listen to this. This is our friend with CBS three

544
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 1: Philly News, Jan Carbo. She was stabbed twenty times. Half

545
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: of the wounds to the back of her neck. You

546
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: talk to any reasonable person and they all say, what

547
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: the hell is going on? Tom Brennan logged twenty five

548
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: years with the Pennsylvania State Police and worked at the

549
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: FBI's Behavioral Science Unit in Quantico, Virginia. Now retired, he

550
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: has worked nearly seven years pro bono with the Greenberg's

551
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: investigating Ellen's death. Aide, but the medical examiner's report says

552
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: there was no sign of a struggle. Nothing was obviously

553
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 1: missing or disturbed. Only Ellen's DNA was found on the

554
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 1: knife in her nest, and Ellen had no defense injuries

555
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: to her hands or four arms. Still, Brennan says none

556
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: of that he proves this was suicide. Didn't they ever

557
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 1: hear a blitz where a victim doesn't get the opportunity

558
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,439
Speaker 1: to defend themselves. I don't get it, Tom Brennan. We're

559
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: hearing your voice along with John Jankirabee. Did I understand

560
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: it correctly? They're twenty stab wounds, with half of them

561
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: bang to the back of the neck, yes, and one

562
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 1: to the right side of the scalp. That's six point

563
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: five centimeters long. So what the hell was that a

564
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: near miss? How can that possibly be a suicide? I mean,

565
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: I'm just a trial lawyer, but there's just no way.

566
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: And Nancy, to all of this, everybody's saying there's a

567
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: lack of defense rooms, lack of defense rooms. Well, if

568
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 1: you take a look at the autopsy photographs, I need

569
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: to take a look at the victims risks and the

570
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: way the risks that were examined. Okay, you can see

571
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: that there's evidence of restraint that there is there are

572
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: uh defense wolves on the on the victim's risks. So

573
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: you know, this story about lack of defense wolves is

574
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: bull and that is a technical legal term that I've

575
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: used very often in my law practice. Well, I can

576
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 1: tell you this, there is no way that this is

577
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: a suicide. So what now, Nancy Grace killers amongst us

578
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye friend,