WEBVTT - Frances Haugen, One Year Later 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:05.560 From the heart of where innovation, money and power COLLI 0:00:06.360 --> 0:00:10.920 in Silicon Valley and beyond. This is Bloomberg Technology with 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:27.840 Emily Jay. I'memoly Jang in San Francisco, and this is 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:30.720 Bloomberg Technology. Coming up in the next hour, Elon Musk 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:33.720 teases his plans for Twitter. The billionaire wants to take 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:37.199 the social platform beyond the town square and create what 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:40.559 he's calling X, the everything app. What does he need? 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:45.320 We'll discuss. Plus, Facebook whistle blower Francis Halgan joins me 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.319 one year after her fiery testimony on Capitol Hill. We'll 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:54.280 talk about what's changed, what hasn't, and what stayed the same, 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.040 and is the blockchain the answer to get everyday people 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:01.040 to invest in private markets. One funds ends to tokenize 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:04.720 its investments could open the door to the masses. I 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:07.200 want to get back to our top story. Musk's about 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:09.440 face agreed to buy Twitter at the original price, but 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.200 the judge in the Twitter trial saying show will go 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:15.960 on for now. Let's break it all down with Bloomberg. 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:19.240 Sarah fryar So from a legal perspective, Sarah, Twitter hasn't 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:22.600 dropped its lawsuits. They're still going to court as of 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:26.120 now on October sevente Right, Well, we know that the 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:28.880 parties are meeting today. We know that Twitter is talking 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:31.800 with Elon Musk. But yeah, I mean they have not 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:35.119 said sure, we we trust that this offer that you've 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:37.880 made is is legitimate and we will do this. Um. 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:40.760 We haven't seen any joint statement. We haven't seen any 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.839 end to the saga yet. I think we're still staying 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:47.039 tuned for for what they might decide. And and hey, 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:50.920 if they don't come to an agreement, um, then we 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:53.440 might see must opposed in the next couple of days 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.880 and we might see, um, this go to court as 0:01:56.880 --> 0:02:00.160 scheduled on October seventeen. Our understanding is that Twitter to 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:04.520 ask the court to provide a consent judgment if you will, 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:07.400 and you know, create an agreement between the court and 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:10.800 Twitter and Musk, not just between Twitter and Musk, uh, 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.000 that would be enforceable in a court of law. We 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.239 are getting a glimpse into his vision for the social 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:18.480 media platform. What do you make of this x the 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:21.520 everything app thing? What does he mean by that? You know, 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:25.000 you've talked a few times about the idea of having 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:28.360 an app in the US that would compete with the 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:32.239 likes of we chat in China. Um, I think we've 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:36.440 we've seen this ambition before. We've seen this from Mark Zuckerberg, 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:39.120 We've seen this from Evans speakl. Nobody had quite pulled 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:42.680 it off, though he's talcumented everything. App Um. I think 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:45.800 that that is is a big ambition of a lot 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:48.760 of folks that just the Internet. Um may not work 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:51.880 the same way here. We'll have to see meantime. You've 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.720 been doing some maths, and I believe the calculation is 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:57.800 if Elon must gets rid of all the boxs and 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.400 spam on Twitter, he might lose their teena and a 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:04.840 half million followers on his own. Yeah, I think I 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:07.120 think a lot of people will lose followers. Listen, And 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:10.600 it really depends on what you think of as a bought. 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:12.880 There are a lot of automated account on Twitter that 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:15.160 that people love, like such as once I tell you 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:17.960 when an earthquake has happened. Um, I don't think that 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:22.079 that's what Elon Musk is talking about. Um. His account 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:27.280 in particular tends to be disportionately affected by folks who 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:29.920 want to to take his identity to try to to 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:33.760 do crypto scams, for instance, So I think that um 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:38.080 that those celebrity accounts um do tend to be more 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:40.520 overrun by bots, and if he were to get rid 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.520 of that kind of of account on Twitter, would it 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:47.760 would affect the biggest names like Elon Musk, like Justin Bieber, 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:51.960 especially the longest standing accounts on Twitter. All right, well, 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:55.160 interesting that we're starting to see his vision and take 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.160 more shape. Of course, if the steal does indeed go 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:12.400 through Bloombergs frya thank you as always. One year ago, 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:16.240 former Facebook employee Francis Hogan shook Silicon Valley and the 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:19.520 world when she blew the whistle on Facebook. She turned 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:22.679 over tens of thousands of internal documents from the social 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:27.240 networking giant to the media and the SEC. The Facebook Papers, 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.240 as they've come to be known, contained disturbing facts about 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:34.000 the effects that social media platforms, including Instagram, we're having 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:38.040 on teens and kids. After testifying before US Congress, she 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:41.640 went on to speak around the world. The question is 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:45.119 what is Facebook doing to amplify or or expand hate? 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:47.560 What is it doing to amplify or expand eathing violence? 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:49.840 I mean, Faceboo didn't invent hate, but you think it's 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.919 making hate worse. Unquestionably, it's making hate worse. So in 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.720 the last year, what has changed, what's improved, and what's 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:59.760 left to do? Former Facebook employee turned whistleblower Francis Hogan 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.040 joins me. Now, Francis, thank you so much for joining us. 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.200 It is one year to the day since you testified 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.520 before US Congress, and I'm so curious what you feel 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:13.400 has changed for the better since then and how much 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:15.280 work is they're still left to do, you know. And 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:19.800 it's some really basic ways, Um, Facebook has changed substantially, right. So, 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:23.200 Facebook had ten years to release parental controls for Instagram 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:25.719 and it never got around to it until after my 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.719 disclosures came out. Uh. There are other things like Facebook 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:31.240 has never had any public programs around trying to be 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:34.239 more inclusive on its languages, and they launched something called 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:37.240 No Language Left Behind UM, which is still only a 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:38.720 you know, a drop in the bucket, but at least 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:42.960 they're trying UM. Internationally, we've seen some amazing progress legislatively, 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:46.640 so there's a law called the Digital Services Act, which 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:50.320 is the first law that has ever required the major 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.800 platforms to disclose what risks they have, Like actually, they 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:56.400 would have had to disclose the risks to kids. For example, 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.599 had this law they passed before that finally got across 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:01.480 the finish line in Europe after a four or five 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.480 year year push. The information my disclosure is was credited 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:07.880 with giving the last gas and the tank to get 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:10.160 across the finish line. So some things have changed, but 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:12.640 we still have a lot more work to do. Facebook 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:14.560 has also changed its name to meta made this big 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.600 pivot to the metaverse. What are your biggest concerns about 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:21.080 the new meta today. The way they got here with 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:23.800 Facebook was because of a set of incentives and and 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:27.159 a lack of oversight. Those incentives have not meaningfully changed. 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:29.919 Facebook is still a private company. It's still driven to 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:33.160 have to increase usage, increased profits quarter after quarter. We 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:35.880 Facebook set its initial launch of the metaverse, we're going 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:37.800 to do safety by a design up front. But from 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:40.600 what we're seeing over the last you know, last year, 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:43.520 um is that they're repeating the same problems that they 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.600 had with Facebook that the first time they let journalists 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:50.559 into the metaverse, immediately women started gang grouped. Why didn't 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:53.120 they talk to some women beforehand on like what might 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.120 be dangerous that that that they could face in a 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:59.120 space like this, So we need to see meta actively 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.760 engaging with the pulp engagement experts and saying, let's design 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:05.480 for safety from the certain So they just said today 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:09.000 they're going to ask users for more direct feedback on 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.360 what they'd like to see in their feed their algorithm 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:15.800 is that a good? Is that a positive step? In 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.560 your view that it might have been? And there's a 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:20.480 lot of ways to do this that would have huge 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:24.440 opportunities for change. Many people know of kids who struggle 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:27.880 with mental health issues, eating disorders. Um. Part of what 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:31.119 happens is Facebook's algorithms have a tendency to push people 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:33.720 towards more extreme content. You know, you might start something 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:36.240 like healthy eating and get pushed to pro interacts the content. 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:40.000 Imagine a world where kid who's trying to fight against 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.440 these things, who knows this is a negative venture uh 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:45.560 influence on them. Imagine if Facebook actually said, hey, we 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:47.920 noticed you're looking at a lot of content that other 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.880 users have said makes them feel blue. Do you want 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.480 to keep looking at it? Imagine if we have that 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:56.440 ability to influence our feeds, probably a lot of kids 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:59.080 would be a lot healthier today. Interestingly, he told Joe 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:02.200 Rogan this story about how he rejected the idea of 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:04.560 an angry emoji and then said he wasn't here to 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.800 design a service that makes people more angry. Do you 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:12.000 think that's a little bit of rebusionist and history. It's interesting. 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:16.000 So when you look at the documents around emojis, the 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:19.840 reason why they added them was they wanted people to um. 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:23.360 People felt bad putting like a thumbs up on something 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:25.160 that made them really angry. They don't want to be 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.720 sewn is endorsing that idea. It's one of these things 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:33.240 where Facebook didn't think about the uninterested, unanticipated consequences of 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:35.880 some of these design decisions. When you make an avenue 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:38.920 where you could do it actively solicit more anger, you're 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:41.880 going to get more angry content. So I haven't seen 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.280 anything that documents saying that Mark said say no to 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:47.679 the angry face um and, but I can imagine that 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:50.480 he wishes as he had. Now now you testify that 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:54.480 only Mark Zuckerberg was holding Mark Zuckerberg accountable. And I'm 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:58.520 curious what you think of Cyril Sandberg's departure after fourteen years. 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:02.040 Do you think her leaving will change the internal culture? 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:05.360 And if so, so, I have a so so the 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:07.480 fact that Mark remains, I think is a much more 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:11.199 significant issue than Cheryl leaving. You know, Marcus surrounded himself 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.600 with people who tell him the same kinds of stories 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:16.079 over and over again. You know, Facebook is just a mirror. 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:19.160 It doesn't have responsibility. All these things that we're complaining 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:21.560 about have always been present. We're just showing them to 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:23.280 people who don't. We don't play any role in this. 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:25.839 We have no power. And Cheryl was a voice inside 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:27.920 the company who said, Hey, we have to get in 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.839 front of issues. We can't just be reactive. We can't 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.760 wait for another story to leak. You can't wait for 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:36.320 you know, another UN report saying we caused an ethnic 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:40.199 violence incident, um, like what happened with men more um. 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:42.959 I worry that because we don't have Cheryl's voice inside 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:45.800 of the company, that the number of senior leaders who 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.360 raised these issues has has gone down in a meaningful way. 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:51.880 Elections are coming up. What are you watching? What's your 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:56.080 take on how Meta is handling uh this new election 0:09:56.640 --> 0:10:00.640 so far? I'm deeply concerned about the upcoming election. UH. 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:03.400 Other news sources, I believe in air Times have reported 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.080 on how Facebook shrunk their election team from around three 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:09.559 hundred people to sixty people UH later earlier this year. 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:13.240 That's a huge deal. When I was at Facebook, I 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.240 watched I worked in threat intelligence for the last eight 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:18.400 months I was in the company, and I watched some 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:21.760 catch over and over again, things like Russian influence operations. 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:25.440 There are a number of foreign nations, Russia, China ran 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:29.640 even smaller countries than know that as an open society, 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:36.040 as these unregulated, underinvested in platforms show like there's ways 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:37.880 that they can go in there and manipulate our elections. 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:40.480 And before Facebook was really trying, they were giving. They 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:42.600 were giving, perhaps not the best they could do, but 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:46.839 they were truly really trying to blunt those edges. And 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:48.960 I can't imagine that they can do an effective job 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:52.560 with fewer people protecting our elections. I know you've been 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:56.720 talking to lawmakers. We've got the American Innovation and Choice 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:00.360 Online at from UH Senators Club Buchar and Grass. We've 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:03.160 got Lena Cohn being more aggressive at the FTC. You 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.800 have the Supreme Court looking at Section two thirty. What 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:10.000 is one way the law could change to have the 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:15.520 most dramatic, potentially positive impact on big tech? In your view, 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:19.680 I am a strong advocate for the platform account of 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:25.120 the Platform Accountability and Transparency act UM because right now 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:28.520 we can't see behind the curtain of social media. We 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:31.240 were able to push for safety features and cars or 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:34.240 found in the partner of transportation, you know, reducing the 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:38.079 fatality from automobile automobile accents by effectively three and a 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.520 half times, because we could actually control cars, you know, 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:43.640 we could crash test them, we could take them apart, 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:46.080 we could understand how they were built and what what 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:48.760 shortcuts have been made. Right now, we can't do any 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:51.040 of those things for social media. We can't crash test it, 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:53.360 we can't confirm how it could be safer, so we 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.080 don't know what to demand. So I hope they passed 0:11:56.120 --> 0:12:00.120 pat in addition to an equabahar. All right, we're to 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:03.040 continue this conversation after a quick break. Former Facebook employee 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:05.480 Turn whistle blower Francis Howgan to stay with us. I 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:08.280 want to hear so much more, and especially I want 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:11.280 to hear your thoughts on Elon Must potentially taking over Twitter. 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.679 Will be right back in a moment. This is Bloomberg 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:29.760 continuing our conversation now with former Facebook employee Turn whistleblower 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.520 Francis Howgan Francis, I want to get your thoughts on, 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:34.680 of course, the biggest news rocking social media that is 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:38.560 Elon Musk saying he'll take over Twitter. After all, what 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:41.560 are the risks in your view of the world's richest 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:46.160 man owning such an influential communications platform. The fact that 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.200 Elon Musk can make a decision to buy one of 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.920 our public spaces, um and be able to unilaterally make 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:56.199 that decision really shows us how vulnerable we are right 0:12:56.200 --> 0:13:00.880 now and listing critical pieces of civic infrastructure to private 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:04.520 corporations now they're not even though they functionally work as 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:07.560 large parts of our information ecosystem, we have no ability 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.000 to influence them. They can be bought and sold by 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:12.240 anyone who has the money. Um So, I think they're 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.480 a great illustration of how we've really put a lot 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:20.280 of trust and a lot of um responsibility into the 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.080 hands of a private company. He could own Twitter in 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:26.920 a matter of days. Right before its from election. He 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:31.280 has said he wants to reinstate former President Trump. What 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:35.680 are the biggest concerns about that and and his approach 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:40.000 to quote unquote free speech in general. M hm so, 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.680 I think it was some big opportunities with regard to 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.240 how Elon Musk is approaching safety. So the fact that 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.720 he came out across like straight off the bat and 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:50.600 said we need to be worried about bots means he's 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:52.720 talking to someone who's at least talking to some people 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:54.920 who know what they're talking about. Because the number one 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:58.160 threat to our elections are bots. You know, there are 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.679 large influence operations that act as amplifiers for them for 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.800 whoever owns those networks, and often in the case that's 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:10.440 foreign foreign organizations like Russia, China, um Iran. The fact 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:13.040 that he's stepping in before the election is a big opportunity. 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:15.880 At the same time, I hope he takes time to 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:19.040 listen to the security and trust, trust and safety professionals 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.120 inside of Twitter, because every single social networks different and 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.560 they all have their own quirks and their own struggles, 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:26.560 and so I hope he takes the time to really 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.600 understand what those teems have done over time so that 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:32.520 we don't disrupt things before the election. Now, according to 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:35.160 the SEC, UH and the Information also did a big 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.640 piece on this, and you there's been a huge spike 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:40.880 in the number of whistleblowers that have come forward since 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:43.600 you came forward. One of them is Peter Zachco, a 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:48.720 former Twitter employee who talked about the egregious um egregious 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.760 flaws in Twitter's own security. What do you make of 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:55.840 the rise in these whistleblowers and the role that they 0:14:55.880 --> 0:15:00.000 can play in providing transparency where Congress has failed to regulate. 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:03.560 There's if if if viewers take away only one thing 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:06.400 today from the time that we spent together, it's the 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.080 idea that more and more of our economy is driven 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:12.080 by opaque systems now. So you know, back when we 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.200 had a more industrial oriented economy, you know, you could 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.200 buy the products of those factories, you can interview workers 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.680 who worked in those factors and understand what was happening. 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:24.960 But now we have more and more systems where the 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.080 important details all live on data centers. You know, all 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:30.560 we get to see is our own strings were limited 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.440 in understanding how these systems work, or like, what choices 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:37.480 were made? What are the consequences. Whistleblowers are only going 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:41.360 to become more and more important because in the case 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:44.040 of things like trust and safety online, you know, there 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:47.080 are no academic classes you've been taken this today. You know, 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:49.840 there's like a feel on content moderation of places like Stamford, 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:53.840 but that's that's about it. We're reliant on professionals like 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.920 like Peter Um to understand what the limitations are in 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.520 these things. There are first lineup to us, and we 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.080 need to be protecting them. What do you think of TikTok? 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.640 Is there a unique threat posed by TikTok? In particular? 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:11.920 I'm particularly concerned about TikTok because TikTok is intentionally designed 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.080 to be manipulated. You know, it's a system that originally 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.120 originated in China. Um with the end. It's a system 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.480 that's it's architected from the beginning with controlling what messages 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:26.520 are distributed. There are it's they're famous um um. When 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:28.200 you get there are control rooms you can go into. 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:31.080 We can see the most important, most popular content TikTok. 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:32.960 And there have been scandals where things like if you're 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:36.200 visibly gay or visibly disabled, your video has got taken down. 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.200 We should be deeply concerned that, uh, this is a 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.320 Chinese company. You know, let's say China invaded Taiwan. I 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.280 guarantee you we would not see any pro Thailanese messages 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:50.400 going across TikTok, and because it's designed to be incredibly sticky, 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.720 being incredibly addictive, Like you can't passively watch TikTok, like 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:55.640 it polls you and you have to engage in order 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:57.040 to get the next video. There's like a little hit 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.520 of dopamine over and over again. You know, it draws 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:03.240 his kids, And so I strongly encourage us to look 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:05.480 at do we want to have China having so much 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:09.720 influence over our information environment, particularly for our children. Now, 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:13.840 I know you've been on a year of public speaking engagements, 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:17.800 testifying before other governments. You also moved to Puerto Rico. 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:20.840 You got married, I moved. I moved two years ago. 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:24.760 In profit booked two years ago, Yeah, two years ago. Okay, 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.359 so you were in Puerto Rico. Um, you launched this 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:31.840 new nonprofit Beyond the Screen. Talk to us a little 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:34.600 bit about how how has your life changed since becoming 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:39.920 a whistleblower quote unquote, and do you have any regrets? Interesting? 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:42.040 I think the biggest way in which my life has 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.400 changed is you know, I can I can sleep at night, 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.760 you know, like before I came out. Um, I think 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.320 anyone who's ever had hold of secret where you thought 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.200 other people's lives were on the line. Knows how hard 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:58.240 that is. And you know I had I had to 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:00.480 get a new passport right about the time I left Facebook, 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:03.280 and I had to get a new driver's license this 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:05.520 year because I had lost my driver's license. And I 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:07.440 looked at those two photos and I was like, oh, 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.680 my goodness, I aged backwards ten years. Like that's not 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:14.560 how it's supposed to work. UM. And so I have 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.560 been so grateful for the experience over the last year 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:22.120 because I know how few public figures that are women. UM, 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:26.960 I have easy life online and like I have opened 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:30.000 d ms on Twitter, Instagram and no one harasses me. 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:33.400 You know, I've I've I've only felt supported and I'm 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:36.480 I'm so grateful UM to be able to give people 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:39.119 hope about the idea that we can change social media. 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:41.159 You know, we were going to figure out how to 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.120 do this and we can do it together, all right. Well, 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:47.360 thank you so much for obviously sharing your story with us. 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:51.119 Everybody check out Beyond the Screen, Francis Halgan's new nonprofit, 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.760 UM Francis, thank you for taking the time. We appreciate it. 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:06.119 Welcome back to Bow technology and Emily changing San Francisco 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:10.200 Elon Musk wants to turn Twitter into the everything app. 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:14.520 Here to explain what that might mean, are Ed Ludlow So, Ed, 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:16.440 what kind of clues do we have about what he's 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:18.720 really talking about here? Yeah, you know we have clues 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:20.760 and shameless plug I kind of put a piece out 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.280 on Twitter this morning about some of the things Muskas 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:25.840 talked about changing. We're certainly at a stage where there's 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:27.920 more questions and answers, right. You see that reflected in 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:31.240 equity markets. You know, Twitter is down after a ginormous 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.680 game twenty four hours ago. Tesla down on concern Musk 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:36.800 will have to sell down Tesla stock to fund this 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:40.040 deal that he's distracted. But this is this idea of 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.280 X the everything app. And you know what Muscar has 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:46.359 talked about in the past on stage and tweets is 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.440 growing Twitter from a user base of around two dred 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:52.080 forty million currently to one billion, And I think a 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:54.320 lot of the street are looking for signs of what 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:56.240 that means. If we bring up this chart and look 0:19:56.280 --> 0:20:00.600 at sort of Twitter's revenue growth relative to Tesla, Twitter's 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:03.040 growth has been underwhelming, right, and there is hope that 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.720 Musk can inject some new ideas for Twitter itself. That's 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:10.240 about opening up the algorithm, open sourcing it about dealing 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:13.200 with the box issues, having a time limited edit button. 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:15.879 But he's also talked about this idea that Twitter can 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:19.040 be a one stop shop for other things, more video functionality, 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.840 making it more akin, perhaps too a we Chat in Asia. 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:25.879 You know, there's many more users in China alone using 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:29.000 we Chat and various functionality on it than are using 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:31.840 Twitter globally. So I think there's a lot of optimism 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:33.720 they can do that. But I go back to the 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:37.040 discussion we discovered between Dorsey and Musk in those court 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:40.080 filings and the text that were released as part of discovery. 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:42.720 They want to enact changes and they felt that the 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:45.960 only way to do that was to take the company private. 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:48.720 There's optimism on the street that will happen, and there's 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:51.400 also optimism from the cell side that Musk will unlock 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:54.560 the new functionality that will help Twitter's user based grow 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:56.639 but also help its top line growth as well. The 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:00.399 kind of wild card. Musk isn't interested in ad based model. 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:02.080 He wants to kind of move away from that and 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:04.960 monetizes in other ways. So it's gonna be really interesting. 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:07.440 But again, let's take a reality check. M I think 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:09.800 we're a long way away from knowing what's going on. 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:12.879 Am I going to Delaware? Are you going to Delaware? 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:16.600 Nobody knows, We do not know, And boy, what I 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:17.800 love to know if you and I are going to 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:20.840 be in Delaware in two weeks? Okay, thank you? And 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:22.879 I want to dig into this a little further with 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:26.920 Lead Edge Capital founding partner Mitchell Green. Mitch, you know, 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:30.480 I know you're an investor in Uber, which has aspired 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:33.080 to this sort of super app idea. We've seen ten 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:35.679 Cent really succeed at it. What do you make of 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:38.800 Elon Musk's idea to try to turn Twitter into an 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:44.679 everything app? Look, Um, it's hard. There hasn't look we're 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:47.280 not We don't only lub anymore. But we do own 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:52.560 byte Dance, which obviously on the very popular TikTok app um. 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:55.920 We do all. We were early investors in Ali Baba Group, 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:59.320