1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: Hey, please take a second and leave us a review 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,279 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to the podcast. 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: Thanks a lot. Hey, Welcome to Science Stuff, a production 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. I'm horehitch Ham, and today we're tackling the 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: science of imagination. What is imagination, how does it work 6 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: in the brain, and do some people really have more 7 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: imagination than others. We're going to talk to two neuroscientists 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: about this, one of whom has a new theory about 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: how your brain splits between imagination and reality and how 10 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: it can affect your mental health. So close your eyes, 11 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: imagine yourself in a nice, beautiful beach, and relax as 12 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: we think up new thoughts about the science of imagination. Enjoy. 13 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: Hey everyone, Today we're going to start our discussion on 14 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: imagination by talking about people who can't use their imagination. 15 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: Believe it or not, there is a characteristic of some 16 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: people called a fantasia, in which they are unable to 17 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: or have a hard time picking up images or imagining things. 18 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: It's actually more common than you think. To tell us 19 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: about it, here's my friend, Professor Dwayne Godwin, the neuroscientists 20 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: and the co author of the book out of your mind. Well, 21 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: thank you doctor Godwin for joining you. 22 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 2: Y it's nice to be here, or hey, good to 23 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: see you again. 24 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: Did you ever imagine you'd be on my show so much? 25 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 2: I sit around visualizing it. 26 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: And you get could salts. 27 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting feeling. It's a mixture of terror 28 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 2: and excitement. 29 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: We'll leave it at interesting. That's what we can say. Okay, 30 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: you said there are people who are not as good 31 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: or can't sometimes even use their imaginations. What do we 32 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: know about that? When did we first learn about that? 33 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: Well, we know this from way back. This is something 34 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 2: that was described before anyone scanned brains. Plato compared memory 35 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 2: and imagery to impressions in a block of wax, and 36 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 2: even he had observations that people had different abilities to 37 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 2: do that. He called it fantasia, just like the Disney movie. 38 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, because it's sort of phantom images. Right, So 39 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 2: what would be the absence of that That would be 40 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 2: called by scientists a fantasia. So that's a lifelong absence 41 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 2: or near absence of voluntary visual imaging. 42 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: Yes, some people are just not able to imagine visual images. 43 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:36,959 Speaker 1: If I asked you to picture in your head and 44 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: apple and to imagine that it's red and has a 45 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: shiny coat in it with beads of water on its skin. 46 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: Most of you could do it, but some experts estimate 47 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: about two to four percent of the population simply can't 48 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: do it. And this was first explored in the late 49 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds by a somewhat controversial figure in science. 50 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 2: The first person actually study it was a person who's 51 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: kind of problematic in the history of science. His name 52 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 2: was Galton, and this is a fellow who came up 53 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 2: with a lot of modern statistics and notions of hypothesis 54 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: testing and those sorts of things. But we also have 55 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 2: to acknowledge that he had some troubling ideas about eugenics. 56 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 2: So one thing he did do though, he did one 57 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 2: of the first studies. He mailed a questionnaire to a 58 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 2: group of people, i think at a boys' school where 59 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: he asked them to rate how clearly they could picture 60 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 2: an ordinary scene like your breakfast table. And so the 61 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 2: replies spanned from, you know, people who had zero ability 62 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: to do that to those that could reflect and recall 63 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: just about everything that was at the table. 64 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: Meaning that he found that some people were really good 65 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: at imagining their breakfast stable, and some people were just like, 66 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: I don't see anything. 67 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 2: Really bad at it. And then he sort of characterized 68 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 2: it in terms of the proportions of people. So let's 69 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 2: describe how tall people are, and so you might send 70 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 2: out a survey, Please measure yourself and tell me how 71 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: tall you are. Well, then you would come up with something. 72 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 2: It would be sort of a normal distribution bell shaped 73 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 2: curve that people see in statistics, right, And so he 74 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: was doing a similar thing, but doing it towards these 75 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 2: mental images. And so if you think about the bell 76 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 2: shaped curve, some have zero ability to visualize or imagine 77 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 2: and others have an advanced, almost photographic capacity to relate 78 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: the items that were at their breakfast table. And then 79 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 2: most of the people were sort of in the middle. 80 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: I see, you found there was sort of a range 81 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 1: of people. It wasn't like some people could, some people couldn't, 82 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: some people were better, some people were okay, and some 83 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: people were worse at it. 84 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the idea. 85 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: Now you might be wondering, is this all self reported surveys? 86 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: People could be biased or they could just be making 87 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: stuff up ironically about not being able to imagine things. 88 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: How do we know there are people who really can't 89 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: visualize things? Well, modern science has actually answered this question. 90 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: How did they know it wasn't just subjective? 91 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 2: Well, if we fast forward to the modern world, people 92 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 2: do experiments now using brain imagery as something called binocular 93 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: rivalry priming. So that's asking people to picture a certain 94 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 2: pattern and it creates a stress between your two eyes 95 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: and how your two eyes encode disinformation in your brain. 96 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: Okay, this is kind of an interesting test. It's a 97 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: little debated whether it actually measures how well you can imagine. 98 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: But here's how it works. You wear special goggles and 99 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: you're shown two different images to each of your eyes. 100 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: For example, your right eye sees a red kangaroo and 101 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: your left eye sees a blue zebra. Now, normally your 102 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: brain freaks out a little because each of your eyes 103 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: is seeing something different, but eventually your brain makes the choice. 104 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: You either see the red kangaroo or the blue zebra. 105 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: And typically it's kind of random. Half the time you 106 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: might see the red animal and the other times you 107 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: would see the blue one. But psychologists can do something 108 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: called priming where you're asked to imagine a color right 109 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: before you see the two images. Someone might say to 110 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: you imagine the color red or imagine the color blue, 111 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: and for most people that's enough to tip your brain 112 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: to choose the animal of that color. If you are 113 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: imagining red, your brain will ignore the blue zebra and 114 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: you will see the red kangaroo. But if you're not 115 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: able to imagine images, not even colors, then this has 116 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: no effect on you, and you will randomly see the 117 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: red or blue animal. Another test for avantasia is for 118 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: you to imagine a bright light. 119 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: There's another test as well that we know that it's 120 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 2: not subjective. Imagined brightness makes most people's pupils constrict a 121 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 2: little bit. 122 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: Ah, So if. 123 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 2: You imagine, just imagine a bright light. If you're a 124 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 2: sided person and you can imagine a bright light, your 125 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 2: pupils will actually shut down just a little bit, right. 126 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 2: But people with a fantasia can't do that. Don't do that. 127 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: There are pupils don't move at all. Yes, if I 128 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: ask you to take a second right now and imagine 129 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: seeing a really bright light shining at you, for most people, 130 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: their pupils will automatically close up a little as if 131 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: they were actually seeing a bright light. But if you're 132 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: not able to imagine visual images like that your pupils 133 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: would see the same. Now, there's two interesting things about 134 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: a fantasia. First, he said, there's an opposite characteristic in 135 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: some people called hyper fantasia. 136 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 2: So there's something called hyper fantasia. If somebody can really 137 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 2: conjure very grandular mental images with high fidelity, they can 138 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 2: show richer scene details and stronger coupling between the frontal 139 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: control networks and visual cortex. 140 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: Meaning people who are really really imaginative hyper fantasia. They 141 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: activate more brain areas when they're imaginating than people who 142 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: are not as good at. 143 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 2: It, or the same areas just more strongly. 144 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: I see. We'll get more into the brain areas that 145 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: are active when you use your imagination later in the program. 146 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: But what's interesting is that this characteristic of either having 147 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: a really vivid visual imagination or not being able to 148 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: visualize things can sort of affect who you are and 149 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: what you end up doing in life. 150 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 2: There has been some work to characterize how people fall 151 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: into different types of jobs based on their ability to 152 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 2: form these images or not. And it may surprise you 153 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,719 Speaker 2: that scientists and engineers tend to be on the a 154 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 2: fantasia side. Really, a lot of what they do is 155 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 2: in the realm of mathematics and logic and not necessarily 156 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 2: in the areas related to the formation of images. So 157 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 2: you know, it's not a universal Yeah, Obviously, people that 158 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 2: are advanced in their ability to form visual images probably 159 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 2: are going to be more apt to go to visual 160 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 2: arts and you know, do things that are more creative. 161 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: Now, you might be wondering at this point, like I was, 162 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: if this means that some people are just born with 163 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: more imagination than others, and if it means you're stuck 164 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: for life to have or not have a lot of imagination. 165 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: Ask doctor Godwin this question, and he asked this with 166 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: two points. The first is that you thinks imagination is 167 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: something you can learn to do better. Now, do you 168 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 1: think this is something that is learned or some people 169 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 1: genetically just have a brain that's more imaginative than others. 170 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 2: I think it's probably both. I would say that, you know, 171 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 2: you certainly to the table with a certain genetic disposition 172 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: to be able to do something like that. But I 173 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 2: could also imagine that we can with practice improve our 174 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 2: ability to imagine things. You know, For example, in the 175 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 2: exercise that we started with, I asked you to imagine 176 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 2: an apple, Well, what if I asked you to imagine 177 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 2: two apples or three apples. You know, in a way, 178 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 2: you can sort of see how you could build your 179 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 2: mental muscle, so to speak, and your ability to imagine 180 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 2: by undertaking certain exercises that would lead you to create 181 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 2: these images more effectively. 182 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: I see. 183 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 2: So I'm not saying this as a scientist necessarily. I'm 184 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 2: just saying that there are a few things that we 185 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: can't improve with practice, and I can imagine that mental 186 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 2: imagery would be something that could be improved if you 187 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 2: have the capacity to do it at all. 188 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: And the second answer to this question is that, apparently 189 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 1: there are many different kinds of imagination. Being able to 190 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: imagine images is just one of them. For example, there's 191 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: the ability to imagine sounds and songs and voices. Some 192 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: people can do that really well, like musicians and composers, 193 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: and some people can't. Not being able to do that 194 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: is called an aurelia. But it goes even deeper than that. 195 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 2: The other interesting thing about this is just because you 196 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,599 Speaker 2: can't do this doesn't mean you don't have an imagination. 197 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 2: I think that's an important thing to stay because there 198 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 2: might be someone out there saying, wow, what are you saying. 199 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 2: Are you saying that because I can't create a mental image, 200 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: I don't have an imagination. No, I'm not saying that 201 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 2: at all. So I'll give you one example of that. 202 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 2: So in our book that you and I wrote together, 203 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 2: we have the story of Helen Keller. 204 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: Helen Keller, if you're not familiar, lived around the beginning 205 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. She lost her ability to see 206 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: or hear at a very young age. She was both 207 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: blind and deaf, and yet she became a world famous author, advocate, 208 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: and speaker. 209 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 2: No one would argue that Helen Keller, who was an 210 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 2: advanced scholar, did not have an imagination, because she had 211 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: to be able to imagine the world as a result 212 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 2: of the tactle sensations that she had and her ability 213 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 2: to sense vibrations and intellectually, she had very complex ideas 214 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 2: that she was able to express even through her challenges. 215 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:27,199 Speaker 2: She had to have had some means of constructing a 216 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: version of the world that she could work with. 217 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: I see, sometimes we think that imagination is only imagining images, songs, 218 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: or sounds, but actually imagination maybe goes deeper and can 219 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: include concepts and ideas and different representations of the world. 220 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there are many ways, even emotions. 221 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: That sets us up for our next segment when we 222 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: come back, we're going to talk to another cognitive scientist 223 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: who has a general theory of imagination and how it 224 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 1: relates to everything from how we come up with ideas 225 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: to how it helps us make meaning out of life, 226 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: and how it even affects our mental health. So stay 227 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: with us, we'll be right back. Hey, welcome back. We're 228 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: talking about the signs of imagination, and so far we've 229 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: learned that not everyone can imagine the same way. There 230 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: are people with the characteristic of having incredibly vivid imaginations, 231 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 1: and there are people who can't visualize images, or can't 232 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: imagine sounds or voices or music. Just imagine what it 233 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: would be like to be someone like that, to not 234 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: be able to picture something in your brain, or not 235 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: be able to hum a tune in your head. Their 236 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: way of processing the world is very different from others. Now, 237 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: what's interesting is that I just asked you to imagine 238 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: what it would be like to be such a person, 239 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: and we actually thought about it for a second. You 240 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: used your imagination. In other words, imagination is not just 241 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: visualizing images or hearing sounds in your brain. It's also 242 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, which 243 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,719 Speaker 1: makes sense of all these different flavors of imagination. I 244 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: reached out to another contractive scientists, doctor Jessica Andrews Hannah, 245 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: a professor of neuroscience and psychology at the University of Arizona. 246 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: According to doctor Andrews Hannah, imagination is basically the default 247 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: mode that your brain operates it. Well, thank you, doctor 248 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: Andrews Hannah for joining us. 249 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 3: I'm happy to be here, thanks for reaching out. 250 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: Awesome. So, as you might know, I'm someone who makes 251 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: his living using his imagination, but I've never thought about 252 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: what it is, or how it works or what's happening 253 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: in my brain. So maybe to start us off, can 254 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: you tell us what is imaginating? Like, how do you 255 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: define what it is? 256 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question, particularly because different fields of 257 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 3: stuffy actually take a slightly different approach. So there, for example, 258 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 3: is a field of imagination research focusing on our ability 259 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 3: to engage in creative thought. This idea that I can 260 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 3: imagine something new and novel that maybe has a particular use, 261 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 3: you know, that might solve a problem. Right, that's very 262 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 3: different than other kinds of imagination that have been talked 263 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 3: about in terms of I can see something an image 264 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 3: in my head. You know, I'm imagining that I was 265 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 3: at my tenth birthday party, and I can see it 266 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 3: clearly as if I'm mentally time traveling to the past, 267 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 3: and almost as if I'm there right. So those flavors 268 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 3: of imagination are really highlighting the discrepant ways that people 269 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 3: might talk about in psychology and neuroscience. 270 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: Here, doctor ANDREWS. Hana is saying that defining imagination is 271 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: tricky because we used to try to describe lots of 272 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: things we do with our brain, from coming up with 273 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: new ideas, to picturing images or sounds in our heads, 274 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: to imagining what someone else might be thinking. If you 275 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: think about it, even remembering a memory from your past 276 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: uses your imagination. You are conjuring up impressions that aren't 277 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: really there. And planning for the future is also using 278 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: your imagination. When you're thinking ahead, you're thinking about and 279 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: envisioning events or scenarios that haven't happened yet. So one 280 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: way to think about imagination is that it's everything your 281 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: brain does when it's not engaging with woods around you. Basically, 282 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: imagination is synonymous with your inner life. 283 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 3: So the nice thing about adopting this broad cond of 284 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 3: dictionary definition of imagination is that it's encompassing all the 285 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 3: different flavors and facets, and it's kind of highlighting that 286 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 3: what they all have in common is this ability to 287 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 3: dissociate a bit from our external world and turn our 288 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 3: thoughts and attention inward. 289 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,479 Speaker 1: I see to sort of like have internal experiences that 290 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: are not directly coming from the outside, and those can 291 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: be things in the past, things we project into the future, 292 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 1: or even things that maybe don't exist right now. Exactly interesting, 293 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: So it's sort of related to your inner life. Exactly 294 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: what does that mean? 295 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 3: What is inner life? Our inner mental life includes things 296 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 3: like our memories, our past experiences, our plans, are kind 297 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 3: of wondering about what if, our daydreams, and mind wandering. 298 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 3: So in that sense, people can refer to this as 299 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 3: perceptually decoupled cognition or internal menation or imagination. 300 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: Essentially, what doctor Andrew s Heina is saying is that 301 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: if you think about it, whatever you're not interacting with 302 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: or paying attention to the things that are happening around you, 303 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: you're basically living inside your head, and to do that, 304 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,400 Speaker 1: you need to make stuff up, and that requires imagination. 305 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: In other words, we all use our imaginations all the time. 306 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: There's no such thing as a person who doesn't have imagination. Next, 307 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: I wanted to know how this all works in your brain. 308 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: So then, what is happening in the brain or what 309 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: does psychologists and neuroscientists understand about what's happening in the 310 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: brain when we use our imagination. 311 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it has most closely been linked to a network 312 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 3: of brain regions that have collectively been referred to as 313 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 3: the default mode network. And so this is a very 314 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 3: interesting set of brain regions that was discovered fairly accidentally 315 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 3: in the neuroscience literature twenty years ago. 316 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: You said it was sort of discovered accidentally. What does 317 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: that mean. 318 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of an interesting reflection of the early 319 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 3: field of cognitive neuroscience in psychology, where in the early 320 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 3: nineties we're able to put a person in an MRI 321 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 3: scanner and kind of record what parts of the brain 322 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 3: were engaged when people were thinking or seeing. So the 323 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 3: experiments that were done early on mostly involved visual stimuli 324 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 3: or maybe auditory stimuli. Cognitive tasks involving our attention to 325 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 3: our external. 326 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: World, like how do we react to things exactly? 327 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 3: How do we react, how do we see, how do 328 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 3: we hear, et cetera. And as we know as scientists, 329 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 3: you know, if we're going to be measuring the effect 330 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 3: associated with an experimental condition, we need to be able 331 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 3: to reference it to a control condition. 332 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: Okay, here's how scientists discovered the brain areas related to imagination. 333 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: When we first started scanning brains in an fMRI machine, 334 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: scientists were mostly interested in how the brain reacted to 335 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 1: and acted on things in the outside world, but as 336 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: a control to have something to compare to, they would 337 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: ask test subjects to just sit there and do nothing. 338 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 1: The scientists thought that's what they were getting. They thought 339 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: they were getting signals from the brain when it wasn't 340 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: doing anything. And this went on for years and years. 341 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: But then one day someone realized, wait a minute, maybe 342 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: the brain is not doing nothing. 343 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 3: And it wasn't until about the late nineteen nineties that 344 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 3: enough experiments had been conducted that researchers could start to 345 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 3: look at similarities across the studies. Right, And what professor 346 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 3: named Marcus Rachel discovered is that there also seemed to 347 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 3: be a consistent set of brain regions that are more 348 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 3: engaged when we're passively sitting there. And what researchers kind 349 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 3: of started to realize is that our mind doesn't shut off. 350 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 3: It's that your attention is turning inward. And it turns 351 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 3: out when you ask people what was going through your mind, 352 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 3: people would say, well, in fact, I was thinking about 353 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 3: my past, I was planning my future. I was thinking 354 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 3: about what I would do after the experiment is over. 355 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 3: I was bored, and so I was coming up with 356 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 3: a story or something. Those are all often very spontaneous 357 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 3: forms of imagination. 358 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: Meaning we don't just use our imagination when we're trying 359 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: to imagine things. It's almost like our default mode is 360 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: to use our imagination. 361 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 3: Exactly. 362 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: What neuroscientists found was that the brain sort of has 363 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: to modes to it. One is the active mode when 364 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: we're doing things and interacting with the world, and the 365 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 1: other is the default mode, which is when we let 366 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 1: our minds wander and daydream. And to wander and daydream 367 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: you need imagination. 368 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 3: So there is a researcher Nancy Andreasen, and around that 369 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 3: time she published a study in which she coined the 370 00:21:55,280 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 3: acronym rest and rest in her paper, stands for episodic 371 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 3: silent thought, as it's a resting state, right, isn't it 372 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 3: a lack of cognition? You're actually engaged in quite a 373 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 3: lot of cognition. That's what we default to when we're 374 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 3: otherwise not occupied with, you know, other things. 375 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,239 Speaker 1: That's like the ultimate academic ninja move, Like you come 376 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: up with an acronym that means the opposite of what 377 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: it's it's supposed to be. 378 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 3: That's like multiple levels of you know. 379 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 1: Okay, so what is this network? Like, what are these 380 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 1: brain regions? Okay, As it turns out, there are brain 381 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: regions that we can associate with this day dreaming, mind 382 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: wandering imagination mode of the brain. 383 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, this default mode network as a 384 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 3: whole takes up about twenty percent of the whole brain, 385 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 3: so it's actually a very large network of brain regions 386 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 3: that are really a representation in all four lobes of 387 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 3: the brain and the cerebellum. Actually, there's a lot of 388 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 3: cortical real state dedicated to our ability to engage in imagination, 389 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 3: and a lot of these regions are on the surface 390 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 3: of the brain or the cortex, but they also include 391 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 3: a subcortical representation regions, you know, like the part of 392 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 3: the basal ganglia and the hippocampus, which we know is 393 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 3: important for learning and memory. But also there's projections to 394 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 3: the parietal lobe. There's other projections to other parts of 395 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 3: the brain as well, the temporal lobe, the frontal cortex, 396 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 3: the frontal lobe as well. And there's an incredible amount 397 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 3: of individual variability, Like the position in my brain might 398 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 3: be slightly different than its position in your brain, so 399 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 3: our brain representation of imagination that might also relate to 400 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 3: the idiosyncratic nature of our thoughts. 401 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,959 Speaker 1: In other words, you can see slight differences in this 402 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: brain network between different people, which maybe explains why we 403 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: each have such a unique imagination and way of thinking. Now, 404 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 1: is it the case that when we're imagining things as 405 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: opposed to processing outside sensory things that I see in here, 406 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: totally different areas light up? Do I have an imaginative 407 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: brain and an external brain? 408 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 3: Yeah? I think the field really hasn't settled on an 409 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 3: answer there. You know, is it the case that we are, 410 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 3: in one moment of time, for example, simultaneously attending inward 411 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 3: and externally or are we maybe very rapidly flipping, and 412 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 3: then our brain is like changing in very fast, dynamic ways. 413 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 3: That's a whole other, very very interesting area that we 414 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 3: don't really know hardly at all about. 415 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: Okay, when we come back, we're going to explore the 416 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: dark side of the signs of imagination and how using 417 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: imagination the wrong way can affect your mental health. Stay 418 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 1: with us, we'll be right back. Welcome back. We're talking 419 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: about the science of imagination, and we learned some scientists 420 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: see basically everything we do that's not interacting with the 421 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 1: outside world as an act of imagination. You use your 422 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,199 Speaker 1: imagination to have thoughts and recall memories and plan for 423 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: the future, and to think about how other people are feeling. 424 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: And we talked about how imagination happens in the brain. 425 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 1: According to scientists, when you imagine things, your frontal lobes 426 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: basically ask the sensory parts of your brain to replay 427 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:49,239 Speaker 1: sensations and images and sounds. This is why you have 428 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: the sense of experiencing what you imagine. But that signal 429 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: from the frontal lobes is weaker, which is why that 430 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: sense is not as strong as the feeling of experience 431 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: and seeing what's real. Your brain is somehow able to 432 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: tell the difference between imagining something and actually living it. 433 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: At least that's what's supposed to have it. 434 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 3: We also rely on regions in the hippocampus and other 435 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 3: regions that might be interfacing with our primary sensory networks 436 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 3: in our brain that actually may distinguish between what's imagined 437 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 3: and what is reality in the here and now. And 438 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 3: then then we get into kind of questions regarding hallucination. 439 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 3: That process can get mixed up in people who are 440 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 3: hallucinating with a certain psychoses schizophrenia, for example, people don't 441 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 3: know whether they're hallucinating or not. They would actually think 442 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 3: that hallucination's auditory, visual, etc. Are real, Right, So there's 443 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 3: lots of clinical relevance. 444 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: And that brings us to the dark side of imagination. Yes, 445 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: and people with schizophrenia or people who are drugs, the 446 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: line between imagination and reality can get blurred. You can 447 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: literally be sort of trapped in your imagination. But according 448 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: to doctor Andrews Hannah, this is something that can happen 449 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,199 Speaker 1: to all of us in our daily lives and it 450 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: can affect our mental health. Doctor Andrews Hannah has a 451 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: theory that there are two kinds of imagination in your brain. 452 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: One is called your mind's eye, which is the ability 453 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: to think up images, in memories and sounds. Think of 454 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: it as your ability to play a movie in your head. 455 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: The other kind of imagination, she calls your mind's mind, 456 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: which is when you use your imagination to essentially worry. 457 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 3: So often people will be rehashing past experiences at a 458 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 3: very high level and extrapolating and overgeneralizing. You know, I 459 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 3: had a negative interaction with a colleague, What does this 460 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 3: mean about my future? What does it mean about me 461 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 3: as a person? Why do I always act this way? 462 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 3: Et cetera. Right, that's the process of rumination. 463 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: Doctor Andrews. Hannah thinks need both kinds of imagination, your 464 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: ability to play it moving in your head and your 465 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: ability to rehash and ruminate on experiences, but that you 466 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: can get into trouble, mental trouble if those two get 467 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 1: out of balance. 468 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 3: Often people will kind of get stuck on negative past 469 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 3: experiences and have a hard time pulling themselves away from 470 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 3: those negative self focused thoughts. And the therapies psychotherapies that 471 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 3: often work well for folks are therapies that train people 472 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 3: to think in more of a concrete, detailed self separating way. 473 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 3: For example, and mindfulness therapies, you are trained to bring 474 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 3: mindful attention to your thoughts and experiences and really kind 475 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 3: of be aware of all the details, all the emotions, 476 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 3: the censory details, both in your external world but also 477 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 3: in your inner world. And that process of bringing detail 478 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 3: to a thought actually has this kind of side effect 479 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 3: of helping you distance yourself from a thought, to be 480 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 3: able to know that I'm having a negative thought right now, 481 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 3: but if it is not defining who I am, this is 482 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 3: a thought that will go away. 483 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: Meaning like some of you get stuck in your mind's mind, 484 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: and to help you get out of that, it helps 485 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: to engage your minds. 486 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,479 Speaker 3: Uh, is that the idea, Yes, that is exactly the idea. 487 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 3: We need to have this healthy balance, engaging in bold. 488 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: So it's good to have an imagination. It's basically how 489 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: we think about everything in the world. But it can 490 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: also trap you and you can lose balance. And according 491 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: to Sector Andrew's Hanna, it's getting harder and harder to 492 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: find this kind of balance in our lives. 493 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 3: It's super important. I think there are so many societal 494 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 3: implications now, particularly because of the accessibility of digital devices 495 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 3: that we really don't as a society preserve time, create 496 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 3: time for just letting our minds wander, which we're not 497 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 3: going to do when we're scrolling on TikTok or whatever 498 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 3: it is, right, is really important for mental health, but 499 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 3: also having kids seeing kids develop, right, children develop where 500 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 3: you know, my kids will go over to their friend's 501 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 3: house and all their friends will be on smartphones and TikTok. 502 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 3: I think observing trying to raise kids in a society 503 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 3: that is sort of built to in many ways do 504 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 3: everything it can to prevent people from engaging in imagination, 505 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 3: even at a young age. Right, we buy a toy 506 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 3: and you know, there's like one way to use a toy. 507 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 3: You don't have to use your imagination anymore. You just 508 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 3: follow the instructions. 509 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: Right. 510 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 3: There's so many spaces where I think from a very 511 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 3: early age, we're not fostering the development of imagination from 512 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 3: a young age. And that is so critical because if 513 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 3: we can help children be okay with being bored, right, 514 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 3: boredom is a good state because then you will turn 515 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 3: and use your imagination to get out of that boredom 516 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 3: and to kind of be okay with sitting alone with 517 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 3: your thoughts, then that will make you very resilient, particularly 518 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 3: for mental health challenges. That when life becomes very stressful, 519 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 3: you can turn inward to help improve our well being 520 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 3: rather than make it worse. 521 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, meaning like it seems to we're moving towards a 522 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: society that leaves less time to use our imagination. 523 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, less opportunity from a very young age, 524 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 3: but also especially in Western societies, less opportunity in the workforce. 525 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 3: You know, we're very success driven. We have to put 526 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 3: in eighty hour work week, you know, to mean that 527 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 3: we're successful. That is not good for all of the 528 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 3: restorative benefits of being alone with our thoughts. We can 529 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 3: actually get much of our best work done during those moments. Yeah, 530 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 3: because we're using our imagination. But I also have to 531 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 3: also remind myself because if I'm walking from one building 532 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 3: to another, what am I going to do? I'm gonna, 533 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 3: you know, get on my email and try to address 534 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 3: a few emails during that two minute a period of time. 535 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 3: So it's not like, you know, I sort of know 536 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 3: what's good for you, but it's very hard implementing this well. 537 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: In my own Well. Thank you so much, Dictor Andrews 538 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: Hanna for joining us. 539 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 3: Thank you very much. This is really fun. 540 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: Well, thank you doctor Godwin, Thank you. I never imagined 541 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: this will go so well. 542 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 2: I had a vision, my awesome. 543 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: Well imagine that we reached the end of the episode. 544 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us. See 545 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: you next time You've been listening to Science Stuff. Production 546 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, writing and produced by me or Hey cham 547 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: pndited by Rose Seguda, Executive producer Jerry Rowland, an audio 548 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: engineer and mixer Ksey peckrom And you can follow me 549 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: on social media. Just search for PhD Comics and the 550 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: name of your favorite platform. Be sure to subscribe to 551 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: Sign Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 552 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, and please tell your friends we'll 553 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: be back next Wednesday with another episode.