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Speaker 1: Sometimes I think the only thing predictable about Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: is that he'll find a new way to shock us

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Speaker 1: every day, sometimes multiple times a day. In the last

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Speaker 1: week alone, he posted an AI generated video of Chuck

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Speaker 1: Schumer and a keen Jeffrey saying we're just.

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Speaker 2: A bunch of woke pieces of shit.

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Speaker 1: He pushed through the Komi indictment. He told military leaders

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Speaker 1: who were summoned to Quantico, Virginia that they should use

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Speaker 1: quote some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for

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Speaker 1: our military. And despite the fact that the military is

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Speaker 1: supposed to be apolitical, he urged them to applaud.

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Speaker 2: I've never walked into a room so silent before. This

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Speaker 2: is very Don't laugh, don't live. You're not allowed to

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Speaker 2: do that, you know what. Just have a good time

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Speaker 2: and if you want to applaud, you.

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Speaker 1: Applaud by the way they didn't. And oh yes, we're

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Speaker 1: in the middle of a government shutdown. It's exhausting and overwhelming.

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Speaker 1: But as my next guest, Atlantic writer and host of

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Speaker 1: the eponymous podcast, David from has said, hopelessness is a

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Speaker 1: resource of the tyrannical. I love talking to David about

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Speaker 1: all of this and more so. We covered a lot, because,

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Speaker 1: let's face it, there's a lot to cover, David from

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Speaker 1: It's always great to see you. Gosh, so many stories,

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Speaker 1: so little time. Where do we begin, I guess with

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Speaker 1: the government shutdown before we talk about this particular shutdown, David,

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Speaker 1: as somebody who's covered politics, gosh, probably as long as

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Speaker 1: I have, if not longer, can you explain to folks

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Speaker 1: listening why we are faced with this dilemma on a

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Speaker 1: regular basis?

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know that I may have covered it longer,

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Speaker 2: not with as much distinction.

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Speaker 1: But I would argue with that. But thank you for

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Speaker 1: the sweet compliment.

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Speaker 2: So the Constitution of the Knights says that every money

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Speaker 2: bill must originate in the House of Representatives, must be

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Speaker 2: voted by the House, then approved by the Senate. That's

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Speaker 2: how the government of the United States gets money to

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Speaker 2: pay for all the things the government does. And the

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Speaker 2: theory is that the Congress is supposed to every year

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Speaker 2: pass a budget that gives the executive the money they

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Speaker 2: need to pay for the military and fund pensions and

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Speaker 2: pay for health care and all of that. Now, the

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Speaker 2: practice has been the system broke down a long time ago.

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Speaker 2: A lot of the federal budget is on autopilot. That

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Speaker 2: Congress no longer votes about what the pension should be

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Speaker 2: or what the health care should be. That just happens

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Speaker 2: on autopilot. And there aren't regular budgets anymore either. Instead,

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Speaker 2: there are a series of funding measures that the House

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Speaker 2: votes and the Senate votes and the President signs, and

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Speaker 2: they passed with continuing resolutions, not with the formality that

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Speaker 2: used to prevail, but in this kind of held you

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Speaker 2: skelter way. There's one other problem, which is unless this

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Speaker 2: rule meets very very strict conditions. There are strict conditions

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Speaker 2: where you can pass it through the House with half

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Speaker 2: the vote, it's in the Senate with the majority of

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Speaker 2: the votes, but oftentimes you need sixty votes to pass

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Speaker 2: things through the Senate. That's new that it also wasn't

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Speaker 2: in the olden days. That's not in the sixty vote

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Speaker 2: requirement is not in the Constitution, but it's something that

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Speaker 2: has developed. So you have this failure machine, no regular budget,

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Speaker 2: these stop gap resolutions. Much of the government, the health

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Speaker 2: care and the pensions ticking along anyway, and this need

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Speaker 2: to pass things through the House with half the votes

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Speaker 2: plus one, but the Senate with sixty and that creates

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Speaker 2: these deadlocks, and as the parties have lost the habit

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Speaker 2: of any kind of cooperation, we've had these increasing government shutdowns.

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Speaker 2: They happened, just to take one more sentence, In the

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Speaker 2: seventies and eighties, they would happen sometimes for like a

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Speaker 2: day or half a day as kind of symbolic expressions

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Speaker 2: of dispute. But in the nineteen nineties there was a

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Speaker 2: government shutdown that went out for quite for more than

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Speaker 2: I think nearly a month, or maybe even longer. And

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Speaker 2: since then they've flared up whenever the parties are especially

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Speaker 2: at loggerheads, and we've had a number of these shutdowns.

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Speaker 2: During Trump one, I think that was the second longest,

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Speaker 2: and now in Trump two we're going to have another.

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Speaker 1: It looks like, David, it sounds like such an fed up,

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Speaker 1: antiquated system. Right. There's got a better way to build

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Speaker 1: a better mouse draft? Right?

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Speaker 2: Well, one way would be to say that the budget

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Speaker 2: of the United States gets passed by fifty votes plus

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Speaker 2: one in the Senate fifty plus one in the House,

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Speaker 2: the way any other democracy would do it. And another

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Speaker 2: thing that is really fed up is we have this

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Speaker 2: crazy debt ceiling, which is the same problem, only only

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Speaker 2: with nuclear weapons, and that happens in intervals where the

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Speaker 2: Congress has a limit on how much the federal government

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Speaker 2: can borrow. No other democracy does anything like this. And

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Speaker 2: if Congress votes a lot of spending, votes less taxes,

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Speaker 2: creates a budget gap, and that budget gap accumulates, Congress

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Speaker 2: has to have a third vote to say okay, and

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Speaker 2: we agree to borrow the difference. And if they don't

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Speaker 2: do it again, all kinds of bad things happen. But

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Speaker 2: the government is shut down, and this may go on

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Speaker 2: for a while.

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Speaker 1: What does it mean? I think people here, you know,

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Speaker 1: a government shut down, and they don't quite appreciate what

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Speaker 1: that entails.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well it entails again. Social security payments continue to

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Speaker 2: flow because they don't go through the regular budget process,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of health care spending continues to flow

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Speaker 2: because it doesn't go through the regular budget process. But

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Speaker 2: everything that does go through the regular budget process, like

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Speaker 2: the military, for example, many of those functions continue. The

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Speaker 2: air traffic controllers continue, but the people who do the

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Speaker 2: functions don't get paid. They get their pay at the end.

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Speaker 2: But this can have a catastrophic effect for you know,

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Speaker 2: imagine you're a young military family. Maybe they're children, and

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Speaker 2: so maybe the mother is not in the workforce at

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Speaker 2: that time, the family lives on its pay and they're told,

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Speaker 2: you know, you're going you'll get the money five or

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Speaker 2: six weeks from now. You know, I hope you can

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Speaker 2: negotiate a deal with your grocery store. I mean, what

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Speaker 2: happens to them. I mean, it's just it's beyond irresponsible.

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Speaker 2: But it's become a bad habit of American government.

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Speaker 1: What else though, I mean, other than those situations with

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Speaker 1: military families or other people who rely on the federal government,

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Speaker 1: you know, to live, can you enumerate some of the

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Speaker 1: other repercussions of this.

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Speaker 2: Well, the United States federal government is the biggest purchaser

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Speaker 2: of goods and services in the entire world, so it

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Speaker 2: spends trillions of dollars, and much of that money goes

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Speaker 2: directly into people's pockets, like Social Security, but a lot

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Speaker 2: of it goes to people who provide services like Medicare

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Speaker 2: and Medicaid. The sick person doesn't get the money the

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Speaker 2: person who provided the healthcare to the hospital, and so

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Speaker 2: those a lot of those providers get hit by long delays,

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Speaker 2: and they have bills too. I mean the hospital, probably

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Speaker 2: the hospital can do better getting a little bit of

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Speaker 2: credit than the young military family that has to buy

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Speaker 2: pampers and groceries. But the hospital also has suppliers that

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Speaker 2: need to be paid. So this reverberates all through the

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Speaker 2: US economy and it raises all kinds of questions in

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Speaker 2: the rest of the world about the stability and seriousness

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Speaker 2: of the United States government.

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Speaker 1: Tell me how this government shut down is perhaps different

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Speaker 1: than ones that have come before it in your view.

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Speaker 2: Well, here's one way that it's the same. It is.

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Speaker 2: The most famous government shut down, probably to this point,

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Speaker 2: was the one back in the nineteen nineties between New

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Speaker 2: King Rich and Bill Clinton, and that was about the

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Speaker 2: Republican desire to cut health care spending, especially Medicare and Medicaid,

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Speaker 2: and Clinton saying no, and the Republicans tried to force

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Speaker 2: Clinton's hands and they ultimately failed. This one is also

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Speaker 2: about health care spending. That there are a lot of

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Speaker 2: subsidies that go to the Affordable Care Act that Democrats

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Speaker 2: want to make permanent. Republicans don't, And so the Democrats

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Speaker 2: are withholding that this the measure passed that got through

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Speaker 2: the House with Republican votes. I finding measure went to

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Speaker 2: the Senate and got some Democratic votes, but not enough

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Speaker 2: to get it up to sixty. And what the argument

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Speaker 2: is about is, well, the forward argument is about should

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Speaker 2: the Affordable Care Act be funded in full? But there's

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Speaker 2: a back argument because one of the things that Trump

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Speaker 2: administration is claiming is that the president has the right

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Speaker 2: to refuse to spend money that Congress has voted. Now,

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Speaker 2: the courts have said that's illegal. The president doesn't have them.

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Speaker 2: Once Congress votes to spend the money and the president

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Speaker 2: signs the spending bill, he's obligated to spend the money,

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Speaker 2: whether he likes it or not. That's what his signature

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Speaker 2: on the funding measure means. I agree to spend the

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Speaker 2: money that Congress has voted in the way the Congress

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Speaker 2: said I should spend him. But Trump has claimed a

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Speaker 2: bright not to spend money to withhold their technical terms

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Speaker 2: of recision impoundment. But what that means if you're a Democrat,

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Speaker 2: you say, wait a month, I'm going to strike a

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Speaker 2: deal with you guys, and we want to spend a

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Speaker 2: little more, you want to spend a little less. We're

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Speaker 2: going to strike a deal on a certain funding level.

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Speaker 2: And then the president says, okay, but I have a

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Speaker 2: right after I sign the bill to Renegg, I can

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Speaker 2: renegge at any time. And so one of the questions

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Speaker 2: that Democrats are struggling with is, how do you do

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Speaker 2: business what people say they're not bound by the deals

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Speaker 2: they strike.

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Speaker 1: How unusual is this? How unconventional is this kind of arrangement,

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Speaker 1: given that Congress does have the power of the purse right,

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Speaker 1: and that Donald Trump or the chief executive the US,

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Speaker 1: basically has to sign it into law, but it's sort

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Speaker 1: of kind of a half assed signature.

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Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, well, he's an especially untrustworthy person and that

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Speaker 2: makes it hard to do these kinds of deals. Now,

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Speaker 2: in a lot of states, governors have the power to

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Speaker 2: impound funds or to do a line item veto, so

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Speaker 2: the legislature votes, the governor says, no, I zero this out.

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Speaker 2: I'm not doing this. And that's true in a lot

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Speaker 2: of states because the state constitutions permitted. And in the

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventies President Nixon said that would be a useful

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Speaker 2: power to have. It's not in the US Constitution, but

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Speaker 2: let me find out whether I've got it or not.

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Speaker 2: The Constitution doesn't say I don't have it, so let

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Speaker 2: me try. So President Nixon tried it and there was

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Speaker 2: a big crisis. This is during the water Gate buried

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Speaker 2: he's unpopular. Congress objected, it went to the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 2: and the Supreme Court said, unlike many governors, the president

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Speaker 2: does not have an impoundment power. Once the president signs

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Speaker 2: the spending measure that comes from Congress, he's obliged to

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Speaker 2: spend the money whatever he personally thinks about the spending measure.

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Speaker 2: If he doesn't like it, he can veto the spending

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Speaker 2: measure and ask for another one.

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Speaker 1: So who looks bad in this scenario.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's going to be the real test of strength here.

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Speaker 2: And one of the things I find interesting about this

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Speaker 2: is the Republicans are much more in The Republicans in

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Speaker 2: Congress are much more cohesive group. They hold together in

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Speaker 2: a way that Democrats don't, and they're much more audacious.

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Speaker 2: They're willing to try crazy things that a lot of

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Speaker 2: Democrats are frightened to try. But the Democrats have that

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Speaker 2: advantage of suit. So that's the Republican advantage. They're more cohesive,

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Speaker 2: they're more audacious, or one more advantage. They also were

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Speaker 2: the first movers that they set up. They said This

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Speaker 2: is the confrontation we want to have, because we're going

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Speaker 2: to say the reason the Democrats want to spend all

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Speaker 2: this extra money on healthcare is to give it to

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Speaker 2: illegal aliens, and everyone thinks they don't like those and

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Speaker 2: don't you count on people. It's not true. But even

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Speaker 2: if it were true, tell me if the person coughing

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Speaker 2: next to you in the subway has pneumonia and you're

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Speaker 2: worried about whether you're going to get that cough and

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Speaker 2: that pneumonia, do you care about the citizenship status of

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Speaker 2: that person or do you want that person to be

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Speaker 2: treated so that you don't get pneumonia from them? That

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Speaker 2: the viruses and bacteria don't care about status. The reason

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Speaker 2: we would want illegal aliens to be treated is we

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Speaker 2: don't want to get sick from the illegal alien. It's

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Speaker 2: not It can be charity, but it's also self preservation.

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Speaker 1: You say it's not even true, But it's not even true.

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Speaker 1: So why are we even hypothesizing about this.

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Speaker 2: Well, I want to take this one a little bit

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Speaker 2: on the whole, because even on its face, even if

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Speaker 2: it were true, I said, Okay, a school bus crashes

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Speaker 2: and the kids are all hurt, and you bring the

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Speaker 2: kids to the emergency room. Do you want to treat

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Speaker 2: the kids or do you want to check whether some

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Speaker 2: of the kids are not in the country with legal status.

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Speaker 2: There's a school vaccination program to make sure that the

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Speaker 2: kids don't spread measles to each other. Do you want

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Speaker 2: to check the status or you say, you know if

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Speaker 2: they're not if they're not legal, I'm happy to take

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Speaker 2: measles from them. Fine, give me the measles. I need

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Speaker 2: to make that point so firmly. But in any case,

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Speaker 2: Medicaid Medicare are not illegal. Aliens are not eligible for those.

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Speaker 2: So the Republicans are gambling. They've got they've chosen the fight.

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Speaker 2: They've got the more cohesive group, they're bolder, but the

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Speaker 2: Democrats have a bigger potential coalition bhyd them. More people

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Speaker 2: are on the Democratic side of funding Medicare and Medicaid

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Speaker 2: than on the Republican side, and the Democrats also have

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Speaker 2: a more popular the issue. So we're going to see,

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Speaker 2: we're going to have a little test and that's a

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Speaker 2: little bit of what this is is kind of a

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Speaker 2: mock contest in advance of the twenty twenty six elections,

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Speaker 2: and the Republicans are going to see how much can

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Speaker 2: we get away with because their polls are looking bad.

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Speaker 2: But this is the way to test. You know, maybe

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Speaker 2: our more cohesive group doesn't care so much about would

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Speaker 2: the big numbers in the polls say, because those are

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Speaker 2: kind of misty.

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Speaker 1: Your colleague at The Atlantic, Russell Berman wrote, and letting

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Speaker 1: the government close and risking an even more aggressive assault

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Speaker 1: by Trump on the federal workforce. Democrats have shown they're

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Speaker 1: ready for a fight they avoided in the spring. What's

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Speaker 1: less apparent, however, is whether they've started one they can win.

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Speaker 1: That is the key question, isn't it, David, Well.

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Speaker 2: Whenever you start a fight, you have to take on

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Speaker 2: board the possibility that you can lose. And fights fights

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Speaker 2: only happen when both people in the fight think they

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Speaker 2: have a chance of winning, Because if one of them

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Speaker 2: thought they wouldn't, then the fight, then the fight would

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Speaker 2: be backed away from. But Trump is vowing to take

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Speaker 2: action again federal workforce. But you know, I think a

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Speaker 2: lot of people don't understand what the federal workforce looks like,

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Speaker 2: you know, the federal workforce. When people think of the

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Speaker 2: federal workforce, they may think about the way state governments work.

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Speaker 2: State governments provide a lot of services to a lot

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Speaker 2: of people, and so their workforces are quite big relatives

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Speaker 2: to their local economies. Their workforces are very female heavy,

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Speaker 2: their workforces are very people of color heavy. Typically, the

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Speaker 2: federal workforce isn't like just just think, think what it

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Speaker 2: took in nineteen sixty two to mail a Social Security

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Speaker 2: check file, Clerks all kinds of things. Now, what does

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Speaker 2: it take to send a social serority country. It's like

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Speaker 2: one person running millions of machines with vast computing power.

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Speaker 2: So the federal government, where it employs people, it runs

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Speaker 2: federal prisons. Where are those Red states? Who works in

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Speaker 2: federal prisons Red state voters? Typically federal government spends a

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Speaker 2: lot on the military and military suppliers where military services bought,

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Speaker 2: typically in sun Belt State, if people not just the

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Speaker 2: navy personnel, but the suppliers to the Navy, the people

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Speaker 2: who do the laundry, the company that pays the people

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Speaker 2: they're not getting paid. That is felt in Florida and

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Speaker 2: Texas and North and South Carolina. So it is the

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Speaker 2: risks here are pretty complicated and hard to compute, and

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Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons why this kind of behavior

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Speaker 2: is usually unwise, but right now that feelings between the

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Speaker 2: parties are so strong and the Republican moves are so

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Speaker 2: bold that a confrontation was growing for a while.

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Speaker 1: Once again we find ourselves living in a parallel universe.

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Speaker 1: According to this Fox headline, GOP accuses Dems of risking

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Speaker 1: shutdown to restore illegal immigrant healthcare subtitle. Republicans accuse Democrats

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Speaker 1: of prioritizing healthcare benefits for illegal immigrants over paying US troops.

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Speaker 1: Can we go back to the veracity of that claim, David,

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Speaker 1: because it's so much a the center of this whole debate,

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Speaker 1: because you have both sides or each side saying different things,

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Speaker 1: and I would love for you to clarify once and

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Speaker 1: for all if this is happening, and how the Republicans

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Speaker 1: are getting away with perpetrating this falsehood.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, at the center of this dispute are the

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Speaker 2: subsidies under the Affordable Care Act that have extended Medicaid

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Speaker 2: to more Americans and that support hospitals and others who

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Speaker 2: provide services and also help people pay for their insurance premiums.

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Speaker 2: So Republicans tried in the first time term to abolish

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Speaker 2: the Affordable Care Act. They didn't have the votes even

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Speaker 2: within their own party to do that, So they're now

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Speaker 2: trying to starve the Affordable Charact by turning off the

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Speaker 2: flow of money. Problem is, the Affordable Care Act is

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Speaker 2: pretty popular. The people who get the Medicaid who are

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Speaker 2: newly eligible for Medicaid because it's now available to a

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Speaker 2: much wider population than it was before, they like it.

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Speaker 2: The hospitals who get reimbursed for emergency care people who

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Speaker 2: they didn't used to get for they like it. And

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Speaker 2: the many many people who are buying health care benefits

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Speaker 2: for themselves and individual marketplaces who get a subsidy to

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Speaker 2: do that. They like it. And Republicans still don't like it.

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Speaker 2: And there's an argument. They have an argument to make,

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Speaker 2: but they're afraid that they're true argument, the one that

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Speaker 2: actually motivates them will not be acceptable, which is which

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Speaker 2: is the Republicans basically healthcare as a services service like

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Speaker 2: anything else, and if you can't afford it, you shouldn't

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Speaker 2: have it. We don't subsidize people's Netflix subscriptions. If you

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Speaker 2: can't afford a Netflix subscription, you don't get one. You know,

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Speaker 2: we don't subsidize your groceries. You need food to live

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Speaker 2: but you know, if you can't afford a steak, you

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Speaker 2: don't get one. And they think it's a commodity in

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Speaker 2: the marketplace, something you should buy. And there's certain classes

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Speaker 2: of Americans, older Americans who get it no matter what,

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Speaker 2: very poor Americans who get it no matter what. But

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Speaker 2: if you're not very poor or old, if you can't

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Speaker 2: afford it, you don't get it. That's their view of this.

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Speaker 1: But where does the undocumented immigrant come in here?

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Speaker 2: Well, under the Affordable Care Act made very clear, illegal

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Speaker 2: aliens cannot get directs up cities under the Affordable Care Act,

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Speaker 2: that's completely forbidden. They can't get them from Medicaid, they

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Speaker 2: can't get them from Medicare. But the little bit of

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Speaker 2: wiggle room truth is hospital emergency rooms are not allowed

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Speaker 2: to turn away anybody by law. You show up, you've

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Speaker 2: been in a car accident, you've been shot, you've been stabbed,

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Speaker 2: the hospital has to take care of you. And I

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Speaker 2: think most us think, yeah, obviously, sorry, mister shooting victim, card,

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Speaker 2: mister burne victim. You know, a child in a school

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Speaker 2: bus accident, person coming in with and you know you've

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Speaker 2: got the plague, And if we don't treat you you're going

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Speaker 2: to spread the plague to all your neighbors. People think, yeah,

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Speaker 2: the hospital should treat it. So the hospital says, well,

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Speaker 2: how do we pay for that? Especially if you don't

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Speaker 2: think of like a giant, big city hospital, but lots

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Speaker 2: of hospitals are smaller, they're in smaller towns. How do

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Speaker 2: we pay we? Okay, we treated, we did thirteen hours

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Speaker 2: of life saving surgery. We had doctors, we had nurses,

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Speaker 2: we had you know, all kinds of equipment. Well, how

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Speaker 2: do we pay for that? And we look to the government,

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Speaker 2: state or federal support our operating costs. And if the

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Speaker 2: hospital isn't checking whether the person who receives the emergency

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Speaker 2: service is illegal, then yeah, there is some flow of

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Speaker 2: government funds. But that's the picture they're trying to conjure

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Speaker 2: up is not that one.

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Speaker 1: What is the picture they're trying to conjure that illegal

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Speaker 1: immigrants are flooding emergency rooms and costing taxpayers boatloads of money,

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Speaker 1: and somehow if we deny this care, they are not

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Speaker 1: going to come to this country.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think that's the idea. And what they're also

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Speaker 2: trying to do is put together a bunch of words,

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Speaker 2: and this is the way our minds work that whatever

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Speaker 2: your political point of view, there are words that you

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Speaker 2: don't like, and if I can string them in a sentence,

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Speaker 2: I can activate your emotions. And you know, okay, let

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Speaker 2: me give you one that made liberal more liberal mind

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Speaker 2: than people may understand. So I just finished work on

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Speaker 2: an article about this so called bailout for Argentina, which

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Speaker 2: I'm in favor of, and we don't have to talk

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Speaker 2: about that today. Why I'm in favor of it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: The point is when I think the typical non Trump

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Speaker 2: voter here is bail out for the Central Bank of Argentina.

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Speaker 2: You're putting a lot of things they don't like into

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Speaker 2: a sentence. And maybe they'll read my article in the

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Speaker 2: Atlantic about why this is actually a good idea and

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Speaker 2: why it's not going to be as costly and it's

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Speaker 2: not taking home. But maybe they're busy, maybe they have

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Speaker 2: something else to do, and so they just the power

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Speaker 2: of these words lands on the earth, all the things

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Speaker 2: you don't like. Bail out Central Bank Argentina. No, and

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Speaker 2: Trump is trying to do the same thing, or Jade

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Speaker 2: vance even more with Illealaliens healthcare. No.

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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Katie Couric. You know, I'm always on

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Speaker 1: the go between running my media company, hosting my podcast,

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Speaker 1: and of course covering the news, and I know that

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Speaker 1: to keep doing what I love, I need to start

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Speaker 1: caring for what gets me there, my feet. That's why

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Speaker 1: I decided to try the Good Feet stores personalized arch

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Speaker 1: support system. I met with a Good Feet arch support

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Speaker 1: specialist and after a personalized fitting, I left the store

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Speaker 1: with my three step system designed to improve comfort, balance

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Speaker 1: and support my feet. Meis and back are thanking me already.

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Speaker 1: Visit goodfeet dot com to learn more, find the nearest store,

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Speaker 1: or book your own free personalized fitting. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: ask you, David about this AI generated video of Chuck

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Speaker 1: Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries and Donald Trump posted it on

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Speaker 1: x and probably I'm true social, but I just watched

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Speaker 1: it on X and it was so fascinating for me

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Speaker 1: to read the comments and how people thought it was

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Speaker 1: hilarious and so funny, and of course many people on

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Speaker 1: the other side of the aisle were completely outraged by this,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it was just fascinating because basically the

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Speaker 1: take on the Republican side or the MAGA side was,

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Speaker 1: you know, Democrats have no sense of humor, right, And

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Speaker 1: yet I couldn't get over that the president of the

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Speaker 1: United States is posting something like this on social media

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Speaker 1: that basically is undignified at best and really just vulgar

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Speaker 1: and racist at worst.

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Speaker 2: There's something else that's going on, though, and that sort

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Speaker 2: of gets to something that is deep about well, why

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Speaker 2: the government is shut down right now. So just think

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Speaker 2: about any negotiation you've ever been in, in a price

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Speaker 2: of a house, buying a car, contract your contract. So,

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Speaker 2: I mean, there are may be certain psychopaths who begin

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Speaker 2: a negotiation by insulting the person on the other side

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Speaker 2: of the table, but most of us understand that the

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Speaker 2: beginning of a negotiation is a very good time to

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Speaker 2: be polite, because you're trying to get to yes. But

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Speaker 2: you're trying to get the other person to say yes

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Speaker 2: to something you want, and if you insult them, either

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Speaker 2: you wreck the yes, or at least you make the

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Speaker 2: yes more expensive, probably than it otherwise would have been.

433
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,479
Speaker 2: So negotiations are usually conducted in an atmosphere of at

434
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,399
Speaker 2: least pretend respect, because otherwise things don't get done. But

435
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 2: Donald Trump's vision of how he should work with the

436
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 2: world is that he never negotiates as an equal with anybody.

437
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 2: He's the king. He dispenses and so one of the

438
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,120
Speaker 2: reasons we're going to this maybe for a while is

439
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,880
Speaker 2: he's going to have to yield somewhere. And Trump's whole

440
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 2: theory of whether he's talking to the Chinese, whether he's

441
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 2: talking to Democrats in Congress, whoever he's talking to, he

442
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 2: decrees what the result will be, and then they submit

443
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 2: to his power, and he does these demonstrations seemingly counterproductive

444
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:50,120
Speaker 2: of obnoxiousness. To make clear, I haven't given up on anything,

445
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 2: but that makes it very hard to get to yes,

446
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,119
Speaker 2: because what may happen. Look, it may happen to the

447
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 2: democratic position to disintegrates in public opinion. They are under

448
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 2: a lot of trouble and they have to completely surrender.

449
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 2: But it's also possible that the reverse happens, or something

450
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,399
Speaker 2: in between, and at some point this will have to

451
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 2: be closed. And at that point all of this becomes

452
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,160
Speaker 2: more difficult and more expensive for the president. And maybe

453
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 2: the president can't even be in the room because he

454
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 2: so offended the people he needs to get to yes.

455
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 1: When you saw that video, what did you think, David?

456
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 1: And just like on a human level.

457
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 2: You know, I think it's been a decade now since

458
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 2: I had my first shock that somebody so crude and

459
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 2: ridiculous and offensive could be an aspirant for president of

460
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 2: the United States. I think those of us who came

461
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 2: a political age before twenty fifteen, you know, you had

462
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 2: presidents you like more, you had presidents you liked less.

463
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 2: But there's a certain style and music that you expected

464
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 2: of the President's a.

465
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 1: Certain threshold of behavior.

466
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And even the ones like Lyndon Johnson, who

467
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 2: is so crude in private, I mean just he would

468
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 2: do the most disgusting thing in private, but when he

469
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 2: went out in public, he was the president and the

470
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,120
Speaker 2: rule descended on him, and he behaved in a certain way.

471
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 2: It wasn't natural to him, but he did it. And

472
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 2: then there are people who were more naturally gracious and proper,

473
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 2: But even the ones who weren't, there was just an

474
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 2: idea the president. This is what not what a president does.

475
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 2: Like the president doesn't ask people come to the Oval office.

476
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 2: Did you stay in the hotel last night? Did you

477
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 2: stay in the hotel? I earned I own, yes or no?

478
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 2: I need to know that I have two hundred dollars

479
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 2: in your viewers in my pocket before we can discuss

480
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 2: the arm sale to Turkey. Presidents didn't used to do that,

481
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: and now they do, so I'm no longer shocked.

482
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 1: Well, now one does one does.

483
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 2: One of the questions I ask is do we ever

484
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: go back? Is it going to seem kind of phony

485
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 2: or artificial for a president to try to behave in

486
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 2: a dignified and solemn way, Because if Trump had lost

487
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 2: forever in twenty twenty, then the lesson would have been,

488
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: don't do this this kind of behavior. But the American

489
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 2: people do put up with it, and it did work,

490
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 2: and in twenty twenty four he won an actual popular

491
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: vote mandate, which he didn't do in twenty sixteen.

492
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 1: So, in other words, the floodgates have been open and

493
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: there's no shut Potentially there's no shutting them in the future,

494
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 1: which is really depressing to me. And maybe that's because I, too,

495
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 1: like you, observe presidents my entire life who had a

496
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: certain amount of decorum and dignity and graciousness and all

497
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: the words that, honestly that I would want my children

498
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: to aspire to. As my father in law says, the

499
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: sewer was always there. Donald Trump simply opened the lid.

500
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. And the look Gavin Newsom

501
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 2: is now testing does this kind of style work on

502
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 2: Democrats too? And Newsom's doing it in a kind of

503
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 2: one step two step way that he's saying, Look, it's

504
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 2: not me, Gavin Newsom who's personally doing this. It's this

505
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 2: artificial character. It's pretend Gavin who have created tatroll and

506
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 2: mock Republicans. But if I were president would be a

507
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: completely different person. I swear this pretend Gavin is the

508
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 2: one who's doing much better as a politician than real

509
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,239
Speaker 2: Gavin was doing. And I think pretend Gavin is going

510
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 2: to end up being in charge of whatever presidential campaign

511
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: the real Gavin Newson tries to run.

512
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because I agree he's gotten much more pugnacious,

513
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: But I still think there are certain lines that even

514
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: the pretend Gavin isn't crossing, right, I don't know.

515
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, yes, I mean overt racism. He's probably

516
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 2: not going to cross that line. But we're just into

517
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: and maybe this is a consequence of social media. Maybe

518
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 2: this is Donald Trump changing the United States, or.

519
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a combination of the two.

520
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 2: Maybe It's also I think a lot of Americans are

521
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: giving up on the idea that the United States should

522
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 2: lead the world. That's I think one of the messages

523
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 2: of those who support Donald Trump really well, as long

524
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 2: as any of us can remember, the job of President

525
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 2: of the United States is more than just the leader

526
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 2: of a country. There's something different in being president the

527
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: United States and Prime Minister of Denmark. President of the

528
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 2: United States had this global role, these global responds abilities.

529
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: Everything the president said. You know, when I work for

530
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 2: President w. Bush as a speech writer, and one of

531
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: the things that people said that was always weird about w.

532
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 2: Bush was we referred to terrorists as evildoers, which sounds

533
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 2: in English, sounds a little theatrical. And so the question

534
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 2: is why did he hit that word? And it's because

535
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 2: everything he said after nine to eleven he had to

536
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 2: weigh how will this sound when it's translated into Arabic.

537
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 2: How do I make sure that the word I'm using

538
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 2: is translated into the Arabic word I want the translator

539
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: to use, and not an Arabic word, because there are

540
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: words for there are words for irregular fighter that in

541
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 2: the in Arabic have a positive connotation and their words

542
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: are irregular fighter then the in Arabic have a negative connotation,

543
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 2: and Bush was trying to drive the negative connotation choice,

544
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: and so he used where it sounded often quite weird

545
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 2: in English because he was thinking in more than one

546
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 2: language at the same time. And a president has to

547
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 2: think that way.

548
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: And I think Donald Trump thinks that way.

549
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 2: Certainly, certainly not no, certainly not. You know, I just

550
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 2: think of it. I mean, I'm originally from Canada. I

551
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 2: spend a lot of time there. Canada's politics like everybody else.

552
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 2: It has liberals and conservatives like everybody else. And in

553
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 2: normal times, the conservative Canadians are more comfortable with Republican

554
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 2: presidents and the liberal Canadians are more comfortable with democratic presidents.

555
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: So the systems are so intermixed, and people know each

556
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 2: other so well, and they have family on both sides

557
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: of the border. I mean Donald Trump's greatest station with

558
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: where everyone in Canada is offended by him because he's

559
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 2: spoken about Canada and ways that give offense to every

560
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 2: single Canadian. I mean all Canadians, liberal, conservative, socialist, radic,

561
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: whatever their views, they all agree Canada should exist, a

562
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 2: Canada should be an independent country. And when the president says, okay,

563
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 2: my starting point is Canada. There shouldn't be a candidate

564
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 2: at all. And he said, look, I might agree with

565
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 2: you on eight issues out of ten, but when you're

566
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 2: attacking my national existence, how do I agree with that?

567
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 2: But I think a lot of Americans say, you know,

568
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 2: we want to step back. We don't want to be

569
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 2: responsible for the world. We don't want all these cares

570
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 2: and concerns. Let China take over half the world and

571
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 2: let Russia take over the other half, and we'll have

572
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: Greenland and Venezuela and that's enough for us. We're not

573
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 2: going to be world leaders anymore. That's why we put

574
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 2: off all these tariff walls.

575
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: What do you think is the danger in that?

576
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: So in the summer of nineteen forty one, President Franklin

577
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,479
Speaker 2: Roosevelt gave a speech to Americans who imagined that they

578
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 2: could do this with the access powers. We could let

579
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: the access take over the world and we would have

580
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 2: our little island of safety. And Roosevelt tried to explain

581
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 2: to them in nineteen forty one, the world is too

582
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: small and the United States is too big for Americans

583
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: to be unaffected by what happens elsewhere. You can't draw

584
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 2: a line around a country as big as the United

585
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 2: States and say to the rest of the planet what

586
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 2: happens over there doesn't matter us. Whether it's environmental like

587
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: hurricanes and climate change, whether it's epidemiology plagues, diseases, epidemics,

588
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: whether it's military threats, whether it's the movement of people.

589
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 2: If you want to stop illegal immigration, it's going to

590
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: be a lot better to have the countries of the

591
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: Americas as your partners rather than as your enemies. If

592
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 2: you want to stop the flow of drugs, stop the

593
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: flow of drigs by blowing up speed boats in the Caribbean.

594
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 2: If you want to stop the flow of dogs, you

595
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,479
Speaker 2: have to work with the governments of those countries, and

596
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: they will have asks because they also politics. I'll say,

597
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 2: you know, yes, we'll help you, but this, you know,

598
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: you're asking us to do something that may be a

599
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 2: little expensive here at home politically, there are people. We're

600
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 2: going to be arresting people or doing things that they

601
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: don't like. So get there's something we need from you.

602
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 2: You know. The way the United States helped Columbia to

603
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: break the power of drug cartels in Columbia was by

604
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 2: helping Colombia to become the world's largest producer of cut flowers,

605
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 2: all of which are flown into the United States, and

606
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 2: it's had some impact on the American flower industry. But

607
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 2: the United States said, well, to get Columbia to go

608
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 2: on board with their anti drug efforts, you know, we're

609
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,239
Speaker 2: going to have We're going to buy a lot more

610
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 2: flowers from Columbia than we ever imagined we would or could.

611
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: That's the kind of thing that if you are globally minded,

612
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 2: you realize as other countries exist and they affect the

613
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: United States, and you can't hide from that.

614
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: And let's take it a step further, David. You know,

615
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: to give so much power to Russia and China has

616
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: huge global implications.

617
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that power is felt in all kinds of

618
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 2: ways that people don't have reason to think about every day.

619
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 2: So Argentina, to go back to the subject I'm writing

620
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: about for The Atlantic this week, Argentina is in a

621
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 2: terrible currency crisis this month as a result of some

622
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: good things they did. They tried to do some very

623
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: positive reforms, but they made some mistakes and they now

624
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: have a currency crisis. And the Chinese are saying, you

625
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: know what, Argentina. You're a huge producer of agricultural products.

626
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 2: We will take all of those agricultural product We will

627
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 2: stiff the United States take your products, and we want

628
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: to integrate you into our currency block as the price.

629
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 2: I don't think there are many Americans who think much

630
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 2: about our Argentine grain production, or are the Argentine Peso

631
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 2: or the Chinese China Argentina relationship until it goes wrong.

632
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 2: When it goes wrong, then you'll notice it.

633
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: Talk a little bit more though, for us about China

634
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,239
Speaker 1: and Russia, and if we basically abdicate half of the

635
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: world to those countries.

636
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not half, it's a lot more than half.

637
00:31:55,080 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 2: And look, Americans, over our lifetimes have built a world

638
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: that looks more and more like the United States. It's

639
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 2: got rules of law, it's got concepts of human rights.

640
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 2: It's got democratic ideals, even if people don't always live

641
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 2: up to the ideals. It's got a concept that war

642
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 2: should be the last resort and that war has to

643
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: be justified to other kinds, to the community of nations.

644
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 2: You've got the habit that you can speak English almost

645
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 2: anywhere you go, and use a visa card almost anywhere

646
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: you go and if you have a dispute with a

647
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 2: merchant in Thailand over the purchase on visa card, that

648
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 2: dispute will be adjudicated by visa in ways that you're

649
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 2: familiar with and that will seem that will make sense

650
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: to you, and that you've been warned about. And you,

651
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: as an American, don't probably have to learn a second

652
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,959
Speaker 2: language except as a luxury. So the United States has

653
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: built this world. If China and Russia are running the world,

654
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 2: they'll make the world suit them very Here's one very

655
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 2: dramatic example of this is so long as the United

656
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 2: States is the most important economy in the world, the

657
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 2: United States can say to others, you know what, in America,

658
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 2: we don't pay bribes, or at least we didn't used to.

659
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 2: And now the president wie, but before Trump, we didn't

660
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 2: used to pay bribes. And because we have anti bribery

661
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 2: is such an important principle, we are going to enforce

662
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: on American corporations that do business anywhere in the world

663
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: an anti bribery law. So even if they're in a

664
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: place where there are bribes, we're going to say, in

665
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 2: the American corporation, you can't do that. And when the

666
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 2: corporation says, but that's unfair because the French corporation will

667
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 2: pay bribes. The United States says, we have enough power

668
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: to put weight on the French not to pay bribes either.

669
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 2: And what we're going to do is we're going to

670
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 2: equalize the playing field, but with the lowest level of bribery,

671
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 2: not the highest. In China and Russia, they pay bribes

672
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: all the time. And if they're writing the rules of

673
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 2: the road, international bribery will be the normal way you

674
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: do business everywhere on the planet, and Americans will just

675
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 2: look like suckers and losers if they follow but played

676
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,239
Speaker 2: by the same rules, so they won't be able to

677
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 2: So the United States, well, companies will begin paying bribes abroad.

678
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 2: And the more you pay bribes broad the more you

679
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 2: develop the habit of paying bribes at home too.

680
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,719
Speaker 1: And that's just one example. I mean, I think there

681
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: are a myriad of examples of how treacherous it could

682
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: be if Russia and China ruled the world.

683
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, the American since the Second World War, the United

684
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: State has always said when people propose to carve up

685
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 2: the war world and the pieces of this idea that

686
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 2: Donald Trump likes, the American views, we're not. I mean,

687
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 2: sometimes you can't help it. There was an Iron curtain

688
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: and countries under communism, But the American idea has always been, Look,

689
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 2: we're not going to be impracticable at this, We're not

690
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 2: going to take crazy risks. But our idea, the thing

691
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: we're going toward, if we can do it, is a

692
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 2: world where it's all one world. It's all one world.

693
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: We're not allowing some thug to rule a piece of it.

694
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 2: We're going to have one world that tries to work

695
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 2: by an increasingly common set of international norms and standards,

696
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 2: from everything from environmental protection to corporate corruption to human rights.

697
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 2: And we're going to try to encourage and promote the

698
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 2: idea that governments everywhere should rule with the consent of

699
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 2: the government to the extent we can. We're not going

700
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 2: to be gamblers, but we have a vision of the world.

701
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 2: We're not going to allow others to carve it up

702
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 2: and say, in our piece, we do torture people and

703
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 2: it's fine.

704
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: What do you think has created this backline against having

705
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: the United States as sort of a world leader. Do

706
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 1: you think it's anti globalization? Do you think it's you know,

707
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: pro isolationism. I mean, what do you think is fueling

708
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,919
Speaker 1: this retreat for so many Americans.

709
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 2: Well, look, in some ways it's the default setting for Americans.

710
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 2: The country's so big geographically and in population, it's separated

711
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 2: by oceans from everybody except the Canada and Mexico. So

712
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 2: it's natural if you're an American to to feel wrongly

713
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 2: that the world is far away. And leaders have had

714
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 2: to introduce Americans to the idea that what happens in

715
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 2: the rest of the world matters, and Americans got a

716
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 2: real lesson about that through the Two World Wars. We

717
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 2: never want to fight a war like that. So the

718
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 2: best way to fight a wars to prevent wars, and

719
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: that means some American commitment to keeping the peace. And

720
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 2: then the economy grew so strongly after the wars that

721
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 2: Americans of the idea, yeah, we're all better off if

722
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 2: we buy and sell with Germany and Japan and France, Britain,

723
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 2: in Italy and Belgium. So I think two things have

724
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 2: changed that one is the China Shock, where the United

725
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 2: States is under enormous economic pressure from a huge country

726
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,879
Speaker 2: with a very sophisticated economy, and Americans say, well, maybe

727
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 2: the best way to do that is to hide in

728
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 2: the basement and lock the doors and turn on the taps,

729
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: and we won't hear the Chinese economy. We can just

730
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 2: make it go away. And the second is the shock

731
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 2: of the Iraq and Afghanistan experience, where Americans fought these

732
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 2: protracted wars that didn't feel successful, didn't feel worth it,

733
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: and where Americans felt, you know, why do we do that?

734
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 2: And the next time anyone asks us to do anything,

735
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 2: it's going to be like that all over again. And

736
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 2: they're both Americans who feel that. Sincerely.

737
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: Well, I think there are reasons too, David. I mean,

738
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 1: I think there are reasons for if you look at

739
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: sort of I mean, you know this better than anyone,

740
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: having worked with George W. Bush, If you look in

741
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: hindsight about the rationale for some of those wars, at

742
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: least Iraq, and you know, the whole fraud of weapons

743
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: of mess destruction and the cherry picking of intel and

744
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 1: the neocons and all that jazz. I mean, there's some

745
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: legitimate regret by a lot of people for those wars,

746
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: don't you think.

747
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people feel that way. I

748
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 2: think it's wrong, but I don't need to litigate that here.

749
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 2: But well, I says that feeling is a resource and

750
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: that feeling can be used. So when Donald Trump wants

751
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 2: to sell out Ukraine, that he invokes that feeling. As

752
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 2: I said, I don't think it's a justified feeling, but

753
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. Many people do that That is there

754
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 2: is a resource. It's also there as a real thing,

755
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 2: Like even if Donald Trump never existed, people would feel

756
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 2: that way. Look, basically, the United States goes through these

757
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 2: mood swings about the rest of the world. So after Vietnam,

758
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 2: a lot of Americans said, that's it, We're giving up

759
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: on the planet and we want to retreat. Then after

760
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 2: the Reagan years and the fall of the Wall and

761
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: the triumph over communism a lot, and then the victory

762
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 2: of nineteen ninety and the Gulf First Golf War, a

763
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 2: lot of Americans said, huh, you know what, maybe we

764
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 2: do have something to offer and maybe our leaders do

765
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: know what they're doing. And so there was this emotional

766
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 2: high and then Afghanistan and Iraq lowered it. One of

767
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 2: the things that's at stake in the Ukraine War is

768
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 2: this is a hugely important global conflict fought for extremely

769
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,280
Speaker 2: good reasons where the United States and its friends could

770
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 2: win if they weren't being sabotaged by a president who

771
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 2: sympathetic more sympathetic to Russia than the Ukraine. I think

772
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 2: one of the things that a lot of the people

773
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: on the anti American side abroad and this doubtful about

774
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 2: the reason they want Ukraine to lose so badly is

775
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: because Anderson. If Ukraine prevails, and it calls into question

776
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: a lot of the downbeat mood this country has been in,

777
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 2: you know, violent. This recent phase in the Ukraine, not

778
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 2: the most recent phase, but the backdrop to the war

779
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 2: that started in twenty twenty two was this moment in

780
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen where Ukrainians went into the streets and drove

781
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: out their corrupt pro Russian government and the flag they

782
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 2: waved was the flag of United Europe, the blue banner

783
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 2: with the gold stars. We want to be a part

784
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,040
Speaker 2: of that. And although a lot of Europeans are complaining

785
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:01,919
Speaker 2: about it, and it's not very popular with the far right,

786
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,760
Speaker 2: we here on the streets of Kiev where we're living

787
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 2: with these hard lives and we want access to what

788
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 2: you have, and we think we have something going to

789
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 2: contribute and we believe in these ideals that you seem

790
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 2: to have forgotten a lot of people are doing. That's

791
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 2: those are dangerous people. They're reminding us of things that

792
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 2: people might think again if they're not discouraged and dishearten.

793
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's me Katie Couric. You know, if you've

794
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: been following me on social media, you know I love

795
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 1: to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of

796
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen,

797
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: Lighty Hoyke, Alison Roman, and Ininagarten. So I started a

798
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 1: free newsletter called good Taste to share recipes, tips and

799
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: kitchen mustaves. Just sign up at Katiecuric dot com slash

800
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: good Taste. That's k A t I E c o

801
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 1: U r I c dot com slash good Taste. I

802
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 1: promised your taste buds will be happy you did before

803
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: we go, and you've been so generous with your time.

804
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,399
Speaker 1: Can I just ask you about a couple of other

805
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: big news events, David to get your take? Sure, let

806
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 1: me ask you about what happened in Quantico, Virginia yesterday

807
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 1: with Pete Hegseth and Donald Trump gathering the top leaders

808
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:36,720
Speaker 1: of the military and basically I don't know giving them,

809
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,320
Speaker 1: depending on your perspective, a PEP rally or a lecture.

810
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: What were your thoughts.

811
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 2: Well as with the big parade Donald Trump wanted. I

812
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 2: think Trump and Hexath don't take seriously that. You know,

813
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 2: the people in the military have jobs, very difficult jobs,

814
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 2: and especially the senior levels of the military, they're under

815
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 2: enormous time pressure. So it's not an they're not working

816
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 2: for just for the president and the Secretary of Defense.

817
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 2: They work for the country, and if you're subtracting their

818
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 2: time for something stupid, you're burdening them, and you're also

819
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 2: burdening the taxpayer because we don't pay their salaries for

820
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 2: them to do stupid things. They were being there as props.

821
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 2: I think the behavior of the generals and admirals was

822
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 2: really admirable. They were polite, and I'm sure some of

823
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 2: them support the president, but they all understood we are

824
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 2: not political. We are not a prop for your rally.

825
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 2: So when you tell us about your big victory, we

826
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,919
Speaker 2: sit on our hands. We do not clap because as

827
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 2: a military we are we had no opinion on any

828
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 2: of those elections we fought. Whoever is the legal commander

829
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 2: in chief, we follow we have as individuals are our opinions,

830
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: of course, but as an institution, we don't, and so

831
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 2: we will not applaud you when you ask us to applaud.

832
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 2: And Trump at one point threatened them that if you

833
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 2: don't applaud me, you're going to be fired. But their

834
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 2: safety and numbers none of them applauded. So the danger

835
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 2: is that haig Seth and Trump took the measure of

836
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 2: what they saw there, and they also in the first term,

837
00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 2: saw that the military didn't want to do illegal things,

838
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 2: and they're thinking, how can we transform this officer corps

839
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 2: to make the upper branches of the military as political

840
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 2: as we want them to be as valuable?

841
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: Really, right, David, Right?

842
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 2: Right? So now that's a process that starts. You know,

843
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 2: let's pit colonels who share our ideology, make them one stars.

844
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 2: Let's find one stars who share our ideology and make

845
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 2: them too. You can't do it overnight, but I think

846
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 2: that's going to be a big heg Seth goal. What

847
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 2: we also saw, I think was heg Seth trying to

848
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 2: position himself as the biggest jerk in the Republican Party,

849
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 2: remembering that in the last cycle, the biggest jerk in

850
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 2: the Republican party won the Republican nomination, and well, Vice

851
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 2: president of Vance can often behave in kind of loudmouthed ways.

852
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 2: He's not by nature as big a jerk, and so

853
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:43,839
Speaker 2: I think we may be watching the beginning of an

854
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 2: anti Vance drive for the Republican nomination in twenty twenty eight.

855
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 1: It was more than just a military event, though. I

856
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 1: think that forty minutes forty four minutes into his Quantico speech,

857
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,720
Speaker 1: Trump slipped in something pretty startling and stating, I told

858
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: Pete we should use some of these dangerous cities as

859
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: training grounds for our military. That was a whole different

860
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: ball of blacks, was it not.

861
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that is something I've worried about a lot.

862
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 2: That they have in mind is deploying military units and

863
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 2: testing it in twenty five to see can we use

864
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:21,720
Speaker 2: them to frighten away voters in the polls in twenty

865
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 2: twenty six. And here's how this would work. So here

866
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,399
Speaker 2: in DC, the National Guard comes as no shock there

867
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 2: here every four years to protect presidential inaugurations. We have

868
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,760
Speaker 2: a lot of big demonstrations and other kinds of events.

869
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 2: They come out to protect those and keep those orderly,

870
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 2: so we're what used to them and we welcome them.

871
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 2: But in this case, the Trump deployment has really depressed

872
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 2: the city so much that you can see a decline

873
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,720
Speaker 2: in traffic to bars and restaurants, especially in the central

874
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 2: area of the city where the Guard are being deployed.

875
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: They're not being deployed where the crime is in the

876
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 2: poor areas. They're being deployed near the official areas to

877
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 2: keep making impression. So if the kind of person who

878
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 2: goes to a bar and restaurant is Central DC, they're

879
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: pretty expensive. These are not illegal aliens. These are people

880
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 2: on educated people with legal status who are I'm earning

881
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 2: a good salary, but they want to keep out of

882
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 2: the way. Now, imagine what happens if you deploy the

883
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 2: National Guard in Atlanta during election time. In Charlotte, in Phoenix,

884
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 2: there are a lot of people who are themselves legal

885
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 2: to be in the United States, but are maybe married

886
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 2: to somebody or living with somebody who's not. There are

887
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 2: a lot of people are legal to be in this country,

888
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,439
Speaker 2: but maybe their parents aren't. And so those people when

889
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: they see that this kind of force, they are afraid

890
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 2: and they stay away. The way that people go to

891
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 2: the bars and restaurants in DC have been staying away,

892
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,760
Speaker 2: and if they stay away, you can use the military

893
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 2: to suppress turnout in elections in blue and I think

894
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: the real target are blue cities in red states. And

895
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 2: given how tight American politics is, you don't need to

896
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: scare a lot of people to make a big impact.

897
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: Do you think that's the goal.

898
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 2: I think that's I think they've been experimenting with that.

899
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 2: I think they're discovering the goal. I think that with

900
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 2: a lot of Trump works by instinct. He doesn't know,

901
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 2: he doesn't have plan, goal, method and arrange that, but

902
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 2: he has a kind of instinct, but what do I

903
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 2: need to do to survive? And then he tests who

904
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,320
Speaker 2: do I bully and intimidate? And then he sees what works.

905
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 2: And often his ideas don't work, but sometimes they do.

906
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 2: And I think this is one that they're experimenting with

907
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 2: to see again, not in the kind of scientific mastermind way,

908
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 2: but in a kind of crude survivor way. Let's see

909
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 2: if this works. Let's see if that works.

910
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: James Comey, the indictment of Jim Comey thoughts.

911
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of people begin their thoughts of saying

912
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 2: whatever you think of James Comy, and I say to

913
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 2: everyone says that you need to hit the backspace key

914
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 2: a few times. It doesn't matter what you think of

915
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 2: James com You shouldn't even introduce the thought. If James

916
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 2: Comy was a genuine bank robber, really personally had robbed

917
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 2: a bank, and the president of andited Slates gave orders

918
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 2: to prosecute this particular bank robber ahead of that one,

919
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 2: that would still be wrong because the system does not

920
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 2: work by the president telling the Attorney general who to prosecute.

921
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,320
Speaker 2: The President and the Attorney General they lay down lines

922
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 2: of policy, and then individual prosecutors, who are chosen for

923
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 2: non political reasons, use this awesome power of the state

924
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 2: in an independent way. Once the president is telling people,

925
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 2: I want this person prosecuted, but not that one. That

926
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:14,919
Speaker 2: one I like. Maybe he took money in a paper bag,

927
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 2: but I like him, so he's scott free. But this

928
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 2: one I don't like, So go after him. You have

929
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 2: lost what it means to be a free society. He

930
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 2: lost what it means to be a rule of law society.

931
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,439
Speaker 2: And it's really ominous. And there are more of these.

932
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 2: We've seen some of the past with the prosecution of

933
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 2: John Bolton, and they are more coming. And I think

934
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 2: the target here, and Trump has said this in his

935
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 2: first TV broadcast after the tragic assassination of Charlie Kirks.

936
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 2: He wants to use the power of the presidency to

937
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 2: go after the donors to left wing causes, by which

938
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 2: he means to the Democratic Party. He wants to shut

939
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,439
Speaker 2: down Democrats. He wants to use these methods to shut

940
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 2: down the financing of his political opponents.

941
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: And the rhetoric he's using constantly, you know, he's very

942
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 1: good at, I think creating these earworms, like fake news,

943
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: and now he's like radical left, radical left, radical left,

944
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: the war within. These are very purposeful uses of language,

945
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: are they not.

946
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, of course there is such a thing as

947
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 2: the radical left in any society, and it's a small

948
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 2: number of very disaffected people. But Alex Soros, the billionaire

949
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 2: in his Tribeca triplex, he's not a radical. He's just

950
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 2: a standard liberal Democrat. And if he's your target, what

951
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 2: you're saying is, I think the real crime President Trump

952
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 2: is saying is giving money to the Democratic Party. Reid Hoffman,

953
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 2: who'said the big investor in Silicon Valley liberal views. Obviously

954
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 2: he's there. He is in Silicon Valley investing in profit

955
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 2: making corporations every day, picking winners and losers in the market.

956
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 2: He's not an end he's not a rout. He's more

957
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 2: pro capitalist than Donald Trump with his tech protectionism in

958
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 2: his special favors. But he's a person of liberal views

959
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 2: and he's giving money to the Democrat Party, and Trump

960
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 2: named him as an example of somebody he would like

961
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:59,280
Speaker 2: to see targeted. So the goal here is not to Obviously,

962
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 2: if someone throws a Molotov cocktail at a military recruiting station,

963
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,240
Speaker 2: that person should be prosecuted and I found guilty punished.

964
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 2: But what he's talking about are people who say I

965
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 2: think I'm for Kamala Harris, Hillary Clinton, and that's the

966
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 2: crime he wants them punished for.

967
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:14,320
Speaker 1: Is this not insane?

968
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 2: It's wicked, but it's not insane.

969
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 1: I'm curious, just to bring the conversation full circle, you

970
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: were talking about Richard Nixon and how the Supreme Court

971
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: provided you know, gosh, what would the word be a

972
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 1: bulwark against his wanting to exercise so much executive power.

973
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:40,320
Speaker 1: But you tweeted this recently, the new Supreme Court doctrine.

974
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: Trump's probably doing unconstitutional things, but these plaintives don't have

975
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: the right to object. Neither do these nor those. But

976
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 1: go ahead and keep trying if you haven't gotten the

977
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 1: message yet. Oh and not you either.

978
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I was making fun of a particular decision

979
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 2: they had where Trump had tried to hold back some

980
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 2: money for that Congress had voted that he should spend

981
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 2: and that he had signed, so he had no right

982
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 2: to withhold his money, and the people were to receive

983
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 2: the money. Took the case of the Supreme Court, and

984
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court said, we won't hear the case because

985
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:13,800
Speaker 2: you don't have what is called standing, meaning this is

986
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 2: a legal doctrine that not anybody can sue for anything.

987
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:17,919
Speaker 2: You have to have an interest in the matter before

988
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: we're entitled to sue. So that's not a crazy thing.

989
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 2: But this court has often used these technical methods as

990
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 2: a way of avoiding saying no to Donald Trump. Now,

991
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 2: my late father had a joke. We used to travel

992
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 2: a lot in Europe in the days of handwritten restaurant

993
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 2: and cafe bills. My father, who grow up in the depression,

994
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 2: always scrutinized these with great care, and he had this

995
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 2: funny line. He said, if these waiters were just bad

996
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 2: at math, you would think half the mistakes would be

997
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 2: in my favor. Okay, So when all the mistakes go

998
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 2: one way, the problem is not that they're bad at math.

999
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,879
Speaker 2: And when the Supreme Court is constantly find we've got

1000
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 2: some little dodge here where we were not saying we're

1001
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 2: in favor of Trump. We're just saying that the person

1002
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 2: whos opposed to Trump can't have a hearing today maybe tomorrow,

1003
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 2: but not to and not you and not you. That

1004
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,320
Speaker 2: the Court is using what is called it's shadow docket,

1005
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 2: that is, the things it's doing but doesn't admit it's

1006
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 2: doing in ways to help Trump. And that has been

1007
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 2: a real theme of the Supreme Court, especially since twenty twenty.

1008
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 1: So have you lost faith in the High Court? I mean,

1009
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 1: do feel like when you look at ways to contain

1010
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: these impulses and you know, not just impulses, actions that

1011
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: are anti democratic? Is the Supreme Court a lost cause?

1012
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 2: Well, nothing's a lost cause. I studied law a long

1013
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 2: time ago, and one of the things that is good

1014
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 2: about setting laws it reminds you that judges are human

1015
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 2: and that courts are very imperfect instruments. But one of

1016
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 2: the things I've been saying consistently since twenty fifteen is

1017
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 2: we use these phrases institutions and norms, but they don't

1018
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:50,800
Speaker 2: mean anything. It's just people, that's all. There are, just people,

1019
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 2: people doing right things, people doing wrong things, and the

1020
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 2: people include each of us. And so the idea that

1021
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 2: I can sort of offshore my responsibility as a citizen

1022
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 2: to somebody's going to look out for me, that's always

1023
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 2: an illusion. In more peaceful times than we have right now,

1024
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,359
Speaker 2: more quiet times, the challenges are less, and so maybe

1025
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,839
Speaker 2: you can pay less attention. But these times you have

1026
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 2: to pay a lot of attention because it's you and

1027
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 2: that's all there is. It all comes down to you.

1028
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: In fact, I like your expression hopelessness is a resource

1029
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 1: of the tyrannical.

1030
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. They want to make you feel like

1031
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:27,399
Speaker 2: it's all lost. And so you see this a lot

1032
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,399
Speaker 2: in certain circles where people say, well, you know, because

1033
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,839
Speaker 2: people want to look smart and worldly, like, well, you

1034
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 2: were naive ever to think anything would make a difference.

1035
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:37,839
Speaker 2: I believe everything makes a difference. It's just a lot

1036
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 2: of everything, and what we do matters, not what I

1037
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 2: personally do will decide everything. But what I do does matter,

1038
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:45,800
Speaker 2: and what you do does matter, and the third person,

1039
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 2: and if enough people are motivated to do the right thing,

1040
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 2: it matters.

1041
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 1: I want to ask you one question, a personal question,

1042
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 1: before I bid you adiou, and that is, you know

1043
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: a lot of people ask me about how I'm covering

1044
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 1: the Trump administration and benow this sort of more objective

1045
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 1: era of news coverage, and you know, I have wrestled

1046
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: with that a bit, but not really because I feel

1047
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 1: compelled to speak out about some of these things and

1048
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 1: to not cover them as a passive observer. And I'm

1049
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 1: just curious if, as a result, does the media and

1050
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:34,280
Speaker 1: that's of course it's not a monolith, certainly more than ever,

1051
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 1: but does that contribute to a loss of faith in

1052
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 1: the media. I wrestle with this, and I'm just curious

1053
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: for your thoughts as someone like me, because I think

1054
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 1: you've known my work and I've been sort of on

1055
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 1: the public stage for gosh for decades now, you know,

1056
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 1: about covering these stories and trying to help people, or

1057
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 1: covering these events and covering this administration and helping people understand.

1058
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 1: You know, I don't want half the country just to

1059
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: say I am a partisan.

1060
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you made your career at a company that

1061
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 2: was when you were there, one of the if not

1062
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 2: the very most powerful media corporation of the world. Certainly

1063
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 2: one of the three or four most powerful media corporation

1064
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 2: is certainly because whoever's the most powerful media corporation in

1065
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:22,720
Speaker 2: the United States is the most powerful in the world.

1066
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 2: That world is gone, and our understanding of media has

1067
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,359
Speaker 2: to adapt. What is the most powerful and important media

1068
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 2: company in the United States? TikTok? And who's second? Maybe Facebook,

1069
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 2: maybe YouTube? The company that the fact that you were

1070
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 2: an institution was important in nineteen seventy five doesn't tell

1071
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 2: us much about how important it is in twenty twenty five. Second,

1072
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 2: I say that media objectivity is not a matter of

1073
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 2: finding something nice and something bad to say about everybody,

1074
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,320
Speaker 2: because some people are better, have more good qualities and

1075
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 2: bad qualities, and other people have more bad qualities and

1076
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 2: good qualities. And you know, look, if a hurricane strikes

1077
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 2: the Louisiana coast and shatters homes, there's somewhere somewhere in

1078
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 2: the world that is getting a little bit more rain

1079
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 2: than it otherwise might have. So there's a positive sign

1080
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 2: even to a hurricane, but you don't have to balance

1081
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 2: your coverage of the hurricane. I say, well, yes, all

1082
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 2: these people have been driven from their homes and many

1083
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 2: are dead, but the flower gardens in Idaho are going

1084
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 2: to be much better next spring than they were last spring.

1085
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 2: You don't have to cover it that way. And the

1086
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:22,439
Speaker 2: Trump people always want to say, well, wait a minute,

1087
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 2: because we were we were on the receiving end of

1088
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 2: legitimate bonified a prosecutions for genuine criminal activity trying to

1089
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 2: sack the capital and murder the Speaker of the House

1090
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 2: and murder the Vice President of the United States. And

1091
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 2: that means that you can't complain when we do non

1092
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 2: bonified a personalized prosecution of people we don't like, because

1093
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 2: fair is fair. That's not how this works. I don't

1094
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 2: have to cover the bank robber the same way that

1095
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 2: I cover the person running the town soup kitchen. They're

1096
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,800
Speaker 2: not the same, and so it would it's an injustice

1097
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 2: if I treat different things the same way. So I

1098
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 2: do try to be aware of things that the administration

1099
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:01,360
Speaker 2: has done, right. I mean, the headline on the article

1100
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 2: I'm going to publish today or tomorrow is the Trump

1101
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 2: administration got this one right about something I think that

1102
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 2: they did right, and where they do write on things

1103
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:13,360
Speaker 2: that are important. It's useful to say so, but we

1104
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 2: don't do readers a service if we blind them to

1105
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 2: the way that things are different from the way they've

1106
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 2: been in the past, the way that Donald Trump's presidency

1107
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 2: is different from previous presidencies. And I think one of

1108
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 2: the lessons a lot of people I will thinking about

1109
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 2: George W. Bush for whom I worked. I think a

1110
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 2: lot of people who said hard things about George W.

1111
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 2: Bush will look back and say, I don't recant those

1112
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 2: hard things. I genuinely disagreed with them and just like that.

1113
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 2: But I may not have had the right perspective on

1114
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 2: how grave the situation was then as compared to how

1115
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 2: grave it could be. And so it's important to keV

1116
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,360
Speaker 2: to have a perspective. It's important not to overreact, but

1117
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,319
Speaker 2: it's also important not to underreact.

1118
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 1: David from I really always get so much out of

1119
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 1: our conversations. Thank you for your time, and I know

1120
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 1: you've got that piece to finish. I'll let you go.

1121
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 1: Really enjoyed being with you.

1122
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 2: Thank you, Hi, bye, Thanks so much.

1123
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Everyone, If you have a question for me,

1124
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

1125
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

1126
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 1: reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would

1127
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

1128
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive producers are Me,

1129
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:32,240
Speaker 1: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,

1130
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

1131
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 1: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

1132
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter wake Up Call,

1133
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

1134
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

1135
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more

1136
00:56:55,800 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio appp podcasts, or wherever

1137
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. Hi everyone, it's Katie Curic.

1138
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 1: You know I'm always on the go between running my

1139
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 1: media company, hosting my podcast, and of course covering the news.

1140
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:16,919
Speaker 1: And I know that to keep doing what I love,

1141
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: I need to start caring for what gets me there,

1142
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:23,479
Speaker 1: my feet. That's why I decided to try the Good

1143
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1144
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1145
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Speaker 1: I left the store with my three step system designed

1146
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 1: to improve comfort, balance and support. My feet, knees, and

1147
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Speaker 1: back are thanking me already. Visit goodfeet dot com to

1148
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Speaker 1: learn more, find the nearest store, or book your own

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