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Speaker 1: Hey, Jory, did you figure out how to build a

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Speaker 1: wormhole yet?

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Speaker 3: What you're expecting me to do it?

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Speaker 1: I was hoping you draw in your engineering background.

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Speaker 3: M shouldn't it be physicists trying to figure this out?

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Speaker 1: Now we've already done our part. What do you mean, Well,

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Speaker 1: we proved it's theoretically possible. Isn't that enough?

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Speaker 3: That's all you have to do, prove that it's not

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Speaker 3: theoretically prohibited.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, the rest is just engineering, actually, like

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Speaker 1: making it happen.

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Speaker 3: Just engineering. It seems like it's most of the work,

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Speaker 3: to be.

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Speaker 1: Honest, and that's probably true.

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Speaker 3: Maybe we should, you know, work on flying cars and

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Speaker 3: feeding the world first.

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Speaker 1: All right, well you know, just let me know when

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Speaker 1: I could place an order from my wormhole.

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Speaker 3: All right, you just let me know when you've proven

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Speaker 3: flying cars and feeding the world are possible.

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Speaker 1: It's a deal.

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Speaker 5: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm Hoorhe. I'm your cartoonist and the creator of PhD Comics.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor

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Speaker 1: of physics that you see Irvine, and I'm a bunch

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Speaker 1: of particles that likes to think about particles.

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Speaker 3: You're just a bunch of particles. Is that what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: That's all there is.

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Speaker 3: Man just sould particles too.

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Speaker 1: It's particles all the way down.

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Speaker 3: If you ask me, are you saying these particles like

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Speaker 3: to study particles.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a bunch of particles that likes to think

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Speaker 1: about and talk about and study particles.

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Speaker 3: WHOA, it's going to meta meta particles. It's particles really

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Speaker 3: all the way down, down to the philosophy of it.

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Speaker 1: I'm particularly interested in particle philosophy.

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Speaker 3: But welcome to our podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe,

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Speaker 3: a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we take the entire universe and break it

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Speaker 1: into its fundamental particles. We take apart all of the

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Speaker 1: big ideas of physics, the age of the universe, the

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Speaker 1: reason the universe exists, how it got to look the

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Speaker 1: way that it does today, what it's made out of,

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Speaker 1: and we break all of these ideas down into tiny

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Speaker 1: little particles of understanding. We bounce them around, wrap them

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Speaker 1: up in some dad jokes, and send them along the

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Speaker 1: audio waves to you.

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Speaker 3: That's right, because we are not particular about the scale

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Speaker 3: of the questions we have about the universe. We wonder

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Speaker 3: about the little, tiny things that the universe is made

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Speaker 3: out of, and we also wonder about the entire universe.

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Speaker 3: How do we get to the far corners of this cosmos?

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Speaker 3: And what are we going to find there.

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Speaker 1: We've sort of woken up as an intelligent species and

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Speaker 1: discovered that we are in this one tiny little corner

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Speaker 1: of an incredibly vast universe, and we're now learning the

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Speaker 1: rules of how that universe works, how it's put together,

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Speaker 1: how you can move around it, how you can't move

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Speaker 1: around it, And of course we wonder are there loopholes

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Speaker 1: in those rules? Is it possible to get from here

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Speaker 1: to there without spending millions of years on a slow

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Speaker 1: rocket ship?

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Speaker 3: Make it sounds like we're a little planet in a

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Speaker 3: big universe. It sounds like a premise for a movie

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Speaker 3: or something, you know, the little planet goes to the.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it reminds me of that great book we talked

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Speaker 1: about once, Long Journey to the Small Angry Planet. But

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Speaker 1: we are a tiny little planet and it is an

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Speaker 1: incredibly vast universe. And some of the answers to the

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Speaker 1: questions that we struggle with, the ones that keep us

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Speaker 1: up late at night, you know, what's inside a black hole,

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Speaker 1: or what's at the center of the galaxy, or what's

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Speaker 1: at the far reaches of the universe, or are there aliens?

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Speaker 1: Some of these questions could be rapidly answered if only

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Speaker 1: we could get to other parts of the universe to

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Speaker 1: just look at the answers.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because we can learn a lot just from here

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Speaker 3: on Earth, looking through our telescopes and our antennas. We

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Speaker 3: can learn a lot about the universe, but it's just

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Speaker 3: not quite the same as actually getting there or seeing

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Speaker 3: it with your own eyes, or being able to touch

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Speaker 3: other planets or shake the hands or tentacles of other aliens.

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Speaker 1: Because if there are, for example, aliens on other planets,

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Speaker 1: then photons leaving those planets are hitting us here on Earth.

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Speaker 1: It's possible that a photon that left some alien tentacle

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Speaker 1: flew through space and then landed on your eyeball, But

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Speaker 1: of course it's difficult to know that because it's mixed

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Speaker 1: in with so many other photons and it's basically impossible

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Speaker 1: to distinguish. So even with our most powerful telescopes, we

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Speaker 1: can't see what's going on on the surfaces of other planets. Yet,

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Speaker 1: so wouldn't it be great if instead we could just

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Speaker 1: pop on over yeap.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, it is a pretty big universe and it takes

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Speaker 3: a long long time just to get to the near star.

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Speaker 3: There are millions of light years to other galaxies, tens

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Speaker 3: of light years to other planets, and so even if

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Speaker 3: we were able to go at the speed of light,

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Speaker 3: it would still take a long time in a spaceship

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Speaker 3: to get there.

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Speaker 1: Amazon Prime has not yet conquered free same day delivery

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Speaker 1: to Andromeda.

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Speaker 3: You need Amazon Prime Prime. You haven't unlocked that in

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Speaker 3: your account.

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Speaker 1: No, I haven't paid the ten billion dollars annual fee

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Speaker 1: yet to get intergalactic deliveries.

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Speaker 3: It's coming, though, only for billionaires, billionaire.

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Speaker 1: Podcasters faster than light drones.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, it'd be great if we could get to

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Speaker 3: other stars and other galaxies to explore the universe, to

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Speaker 3: see what's out there, to get a closer look look

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Speaker 3: at things like black holes and other planets and neutron stars.

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Speaker 3: But you know, space is what it is. You can

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Speaker 3: move through it faster than the speed of light.

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Speaker 1: And that's a pretty hard and fast rule. We know that.

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Speaker 1: No matter who you are and how hard you push

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Speaker 1: and how big your rocket, you can't get going faster

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Speaker 1: than the speed of light. It's sort of strange to

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Speaker 1: think about because you can add energy to things like

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Speaker 1: at the Large Hadron Collider, we can pour more and

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Speaker 1: more energy into particles. There's no limit on how energetic

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Speaker 1: a proton can get in an accelerator. But even though

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Speaker 1: they get more energetic, they just don't get going faster.

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Speaker 1: They very slowly approach the speed of light. So it's

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Speaker 1: a hard and a fast rule. And when the physics

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Speaker 1: says just cannot be broken. We've been looking all over

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Speaker 1: the universe and nothing has ever broken that rule. But

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Speaker 1: there are loopholes. There might be other ways to accomplish

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Speaker 1: those goals without breaking that rule. Not a way to

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Speaker 1: move faster than light, but to avoid having to go

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Speaker 1: through as much space in order to get to your destination.

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Speaker 3: That's right. Physicists have read the fine print of the universe,

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Speaker 3: and it seems there there's a you know, a loophole,

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Speaker 3: something that you can use to worm your way to

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Speaker 3: other parts of the universe.

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Speaker 1: Because when physicists and lawyers get together, ooh boy, you

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Speaker 1: never know what you're gonna invent.

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Speaker 3: It's like matter and antimatter colliding.

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Speaker 1: It's pure invention. Energy is what comes out.

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Speaker 3: Pure energy, no ethics exactly.

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Speaker 1: And it turns out that the rules of space and

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Speaker 1: time do allow for some crazy possibilities. We know that

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Speaker 1: space can do all sorts of things that our ancestors

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Speaker 1: and even genius physicists from the past never imagined. It

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Speaker 1: can bend, and it can twist, and it can be

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Speaker 1: rearranged in all sorts of complicated ways.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and this special loophole is called a wormhole, a

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Speaker 3: special tunnel through space and time that maybe we can

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Speaker 3: use to get to other spaces or even other times.

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Speaker 3: But the big question is can we make one? Is

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Speaker 3: it possible to make one?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's easy. All you do is you call up

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Speaker 1: your favorite cartoonist slash engineer and say, where's my wormhole?

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Speaker 3: I thought you just have to call some worms.

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Speaker 1: My wife is deep into the composting, so she's got

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Speaker 1: a big hole in our backyard filled with worms. So

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Speaker 1: I guess you could say she's already invented a wormhole.

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Speaker 3: There you go. Now we just need a cosmic compost bin.

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Speaker 1: Well, our solar system is a cosmic compost because we

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Speaker 1: are the leftover remnants of previous solar systems having been

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Speaker 1: spewed out into the cosmos to fertilize new systems.

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Speaker 3: I guess with the second last thermodynamics, everything's you know,

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Speaker 3: increasing in enterpres So technically the whole universe is like

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Speaker 3: a compost bin.

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Speaker 1: There you go.

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Speaker 3: We knew the universe was so green and smelt so weird. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And so today on the podcast, we'll be tackling the

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Speaker 3: question can we build a wormhole? Interesting? I guess, first

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Speaker 3: of all, did you build a wormhole? Or do you

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Speaker 3: have to dig a wormhole in space?

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Speaker 1: Let's figure out the verb first, then we'll deal with

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Speaker 1: the other thing.

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Speaker 3: Come on, let's get the question right, Like, how do

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Speaker 3: you build a hole?

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Speaker 1: Maybe you spin a wormhole. Maybe it's more like knitting

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Speaker 1: or sewing, you know, hmmm.

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Speaker 3: It's still I feel like a hole is a an emptiness, right,

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Speaker 3: How do you build one or even middle one? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: or put one together?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, you know, we make light of it, but

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Speaker 1: it is a fascinating leap to say something is allowed

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Speaker 1: in the universe to figuring out how to actually make

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Speaker 1: it happen. You know, you might, for example, know that

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Speaker 1: souflas can be made. Maybe you had run at a restaurant.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't mean you know how to go home and

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Speaker 1: actually make that soufle in your kitchen. Knowing it could

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Speaker 1: exist in the universe and figuring out how to make

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Speaker 1: one happen from the current situation are two very different things.

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Speaker 5: M yep.

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Speaker 3: So then we can put this in the recipe book

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Speaker 3: for the universe wormholesufles.

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Speaker 1: Worm holes su plays. Don't accidentally add too much chocolate

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Speaker 1: and make it a black hole soufle.

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Speaker 3: It's very dangerous, yeah, or dark chocolate matter.

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Speaker 1: Dark chocolate matter. Wow? Is that a phrase anybody's ever

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Speaker 1: said before?

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Speaker 3: Dark matter chocolate? I mean, technically you might be able

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Speaker 3: to make dark matter of chocolate, right.

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Speaker 1: Wow. You know, I wonder if there's a chocolate brand

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Speaker 1: out there called dark matter.

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Speaker 3: You might need a whole different recipe book for them.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to toss that one in my mouth.

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Speaker 5: Hole.

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Speaker 3: Well, it is an interesting question because we know that

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Speaker 3: wormholes are technically theoretically possible, and this has been worked

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Speaker 3: out in the math of the laws of physics. But

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Speaker 3: the bigger question is how do you make one? And

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Speaker 3: how do you make one big enough for people to

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Speaker 3: go through it exactly?

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Speaker 1: It's the next frontier in understanding wormholes, and it's a

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Speaker 1: crucial step in getting us to the place where we

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Speaker 1: can step through a portal and walk on an alien planet.

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Speaker 3: So, as usually, we were wondering how many people add

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Speaker 3: there had thought about this question of how to build

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Speaker 3: or dig or excavate a wormhole out there in space,

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Speaker 3: And so Daniel went out there into the internet to

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Speaker 3: ask people could we actually make a wormhole?

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Speaker 1: So thank you to everybody who answered these crazy questions

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Speaker 1: without any chance to prepare. If you'd like to participate

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Speaker 1: for a future episode of the podcast, I can't encourage you,

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Speaker 1: and we'd love to hear some new, fresh voices, so

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Speaker 1: please write to us two questions at Danielandhorte dot com.

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Speaker 3: Think about it for a second, how would you make

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Speaker 3: a wormhole? Here's what people had to say.

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Speaker 1: We can make a wormhole.

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Speaker 3: We can do anything we set of mine too. Honestly,

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Speaker 3: I don't have anything else to add. I think this

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Speaker 3: is theoretically possible, and I give us a thousand years

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Speaker 3: till we achieve it.

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Speaker 6: Sure, why not, If we can understand it, we can

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Speaker 6: conceive the technology to do it. I doubt we have

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Speaker 6: the technology right now, and I don't even know what

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Speaker 6: that technology would.

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Speaker 1: Be, no idea at all.

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Speaker 6: Concentrate a bunch of matter into one place, and instead

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Speaker 6: of it becoming a black hole, it becomes a wormhole.

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Speaker 6: Maybe you spin a bunch of things in a spinny

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Speaker 6: way to make a vortex that everybody gets sucked down

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Speaker 6: and through to another place.

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Speaker 7: I would like to think we could, maybe not yet,

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Speaker 7: but soon. And Daniel, I know that you love interstellar

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Speaker 7: I remember that you were talking about it earlier. One

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Speaker 7: of the I could imagine it's something like that, like

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Speaker 7: banding space somewhere, maybe even in our own solar system.

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Speaker 7: And we really don't know lots about like dark metal

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Speaker 7: or what's inside the black hole, or there's really still

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Speaker 7: loads of secrets around in the universe. So I'm pretty

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Speaker 7: sure that we can find some surprises there as well,

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Speaker 7: and maybe with that information we get closer and closer

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Speaker 7: to actually be able to make a wormhole.

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Speaker 3: I don't think we have enough energy right now, but

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Speaker 3: eventually we could.

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Speaker 8: I'm not even sure wormholes are real. Nobody's ever observed one,

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Speaker 8: or measure one or study one. I know they're a

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Speaker 8: mathematical thing, but I'm not even sure that. But if

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Speaker 8: they were real, there's no way we could deal with

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Speaker 8: those types of energies because what's the most power thing

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Speaker 8: humans have ever made, the large hadron collider, nuclear weapons.

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Speaker 8: I mean, if you take all the hy drink collider,

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Speaker 8: all the nuclear weapons ever exploded wherever there ever on Earth,

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Speaker 8: does energies don't compare anything to the Sun. And when

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Speaker 8: you're dealing with wormhole, you're dealing with black holes and

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Speaker 8: things that are a thousands millions of times more mass

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Speaker 8: the Sun. So I think it's impossible for humans to

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Speaker 8: ever create or make or manifest or manage or anything

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Speaker 8: with the wormhole.

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Speaker 5: It's too big.

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Speaker 1: Theoretically it's possible, but we don't have the technology. So

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Speaker 1: my answer is yes, but not at the moment.

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Speaker 3: All right, pretty good answers here. I feel like I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure they quite answered your question because I think

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Speaker 3: you asked the question, could we actually make a wormhole?

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Speaker 3: And so people just said yes, why not sure, instead

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Speaker 3: of actually giving us ideas for how to make a wormhole.

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Speaker 1: Oh, they didn't take it as a homework project, like,

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Speaker 1: go and give me the recipe figured out right now,

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Speaker 1: I want the answer today.

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Speaker 3: That's right. They read the fine print in the question

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Speaker 3: and the question only asked could we make a wormhole?

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Speaker 3: Which is a no answer.

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Speaker 1: Well, but again, knowing that something can exist in the

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Speaker 1: universe doesn't mean we know how to make it, right.

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Speaker 1: It's not always easy to assemble something even if you

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Speaker 1: know that it can exist.

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Speaker 3: M right, right, So I guess let's dig into this

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Speaker 3: topic and no pun intended. And so let's start with

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Speaker 3: the basics. I guess, what do you say wormhole exactly?

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Speaker 3: And what do we know about it?

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Speaker 1: So wormhole is a fascinating idea, and it comes out

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Speaker 1: of the basic realization from general relativity, which tells us

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Speaker 1: that space itself is not nothingness. It's not like the

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Speaker 1: background in which the universe actions happen, which is sort

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Speaker 1: of the way that Newton saw space. He saw spaces

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Speaker 1: like absolute and fundamental as sort of like the stage

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Speaker 1: of the universe on which things move and shift. So

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Speaker 1: he thought space and time where just these sort of

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Speaker 1: eternal basics to the universe. And then Einstein showed is

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Speaker 1: that that's not true at all, that space and time

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Speaker 1: are actually dynamic, that they change in response to what's

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Speaker 1: in them. So you put a blob of mass in space,

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Speaker 1: for example, a curve space, and then that curvature tells

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Speaker 1: those masses how to move. So it's not like space

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Speaker 1: is the background. It's instead one of the players on

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Speaker 1: the stage. And mass and space interact with each other

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Speaker 1: to create all the crazy dynamics, the orbits, the black holes,

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Speaker 1: everything that we see. And Einstein gave us these equations

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Speaker 1: to tell us what space can do. As long as

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Speaker 1: space follows those equations, everything that the equations predicts should

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Speaker 1: be possible to exist in the universe, and that includes

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Speaker 1: really simple stuff like you have an empty universe, okay,

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Speaker 1: so space is just totally flat, there's nothing interesting there.

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Speaker 1: Or you have a singularity, a point of infinite density

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Speaker 1: mass with zero volume, in which case you get crazy

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Speaker 1: things like an event horizon. And so general relativity tells

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Speaker 1: us that space can do all sorts of crazy things,

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Speaker 1: and wormholes are just one of those predictions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. People often make the analogy that we're like fish

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Speaker 3: swimming in water, and you know, we thought we were

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Speaker 3: like swimming in emptiness, but actually we're swimming in something,

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Speaker 3: and that something can sort of like bend and push

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Speaker 3: us and compress and make swirls and everything. I guess

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Speaker 3: maybe a difficult thing to think about though, is like

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Speaker 3: you can imagine space bending and distorting, but it's kind

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Speaker 3: of hard to imagine poking a hole in it. Like

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Speaker 3: it's hard to imagine poking a hole in water.

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Speaker 1: It is hard to imagine and poking a hole in water.

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Speaker 1: But that's because if you're a fish, all you can

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Speaker 1: think about are the basic things that you've seen water do.

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Speaker 1: But if you are a sort of water scientist, you

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Speaker 1: know that under different configurations, under different circumstances, water can

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Speaker 1: do other things. It can be crazy, it can form solids, right,

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Speaker 1: you can form drops and fall from the sky. It

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Speaker 1: can even form a gas and expand. And so we're

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Speaker 1: stretching the analogy a little bit, but the idea is

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Speaker 1: that under different circumstances, space can do other things. And

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Speaker 1: I think this is a real demonstration of the power

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Speaker 1: of theoretical physics, because this is a case where theoretical

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Speaker 1: physics really is leading the charge. You know, we take

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Speaker 1: these like abstract principles, these mathematical equations that Einstein came

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Speaker 1: up with to describe the things we had already seen

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Speaker 1: in the universe, and then we explored the predictions of them.

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Speaker 1: We said, well, if these are true if these really

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Speaker 1: are the rules of the universe, what else can they do?

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Speaker 1: And for example, we discovered black holes in this way.

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Speaker 1: We discovered them theoretically as like a consequence of these laws,

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Speaker 1: then went out in the universe and found them too

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Speaker 1: be real. So it's a really powerful way to do science.

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Speaker 1: One is go out in the universe and find crazy

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Speaker 1: stuff and try to explain it. The other is look

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Speaker 1: at the crazy consequences of the rules you have already

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Speaker 1: gathered from your experiments and see if you can predict interesting,

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Speaker 1: fascinating things. So wormholes are that kind of example where

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Speaker 1: people have tried to find weird corners of Einstein's equations

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Speaker 1: that tell us that it's possible.

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Speaker 3: Right right, Although to be fair and not everything theorists

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Speaker 3: come up with turns out to be true.

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Speaker 1: No, almost nothing in fact that they think about it true.

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Speaker 1: Like of all the theories out there about what new

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Speaker 1: particles might be, I bet none of them are true.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that the real theory of nature in

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Speaker 1: particles is in any human mind right now. But that

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Speaker 1: doesn't stop them from being creative and coming up with

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Speaker 1: lots of ideas. But wormholes are fascinating because it's not

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Speaker 1: just like one idea, It's more like a category of ideas.

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Speaker 1: The basic concept of wormhole is, say you have a

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Speaker 1: patch of space from one spot, you have a patch

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Speaker 1: of space in another spot. Is it possible to connect them?

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Speaker 1: Is it possible to make it so that this one

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Speaker 1: patch of space is like next to patch of space B,

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Speaker 1: even though they're otherwise separated, maybe by light years of

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Speaker 1: distance or even by time. Is it possible to build

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Speaker 1: a tunnel so that one patch of flat space is

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Speaker 1: now connected to another? And this is sort of like

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Speaker 1: the overarching theme of a wormhole. And people have explored

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Speaker 1: this for decades now, and they've come up with a

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Speaker 1: few possible ways to connect patch of space A and

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Speaker 1: patch of space B. And there's sort of very different ideas.

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Speaker 1: You may have heard several different ones which sound contradictory,

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Speaker 1: And the reason is that there are different ideas for

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Speaker 1: what a wormhole might be like. There are different flavors

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Speaker 1: of this wormhole moves, you know this earthworms holes, and

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Speaker 1: then this ring wormholes and all sorts of different kind

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Speaker 1: of worms.

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Speaker 3: Oh boy, this is getting a little uncomfortable. Yeah, so

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Speaker 3: there's different flavors of wormholes. But I guess you know,

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Speaker 3: it's sort of strange, how like, what is it about

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Speaker 3: the theory that allows wormholes? Like, you know, doesn't the

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Speaker 3: theory sort of treat space as like the thing where

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Speaker 3: other particles move around? And how does it actually allow,

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Speaker 3: you know, you to make discontinuities this space.

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Speaker 1: Well, singularities are inherently like a discontinuity. They are a

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Speaker 1: very weird point in the theory. And so the very

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Speaker 1: first idea for a wormhole was imagine two black holes

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Speaker 1: which share a singularity, you know, which have the same singularity.

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Speaker 1: So you have like a black hole with two exteriors

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Speaker 1: and a common interior, like it just overlaps.

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Speaker 3: Mmmmm, I see, because I guess if you have space,

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Speaker 3: you know, people usually imagine it as like a giant

441
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,680
Speaker 3: rubber sheet, and you can have maybe a black hole,

442
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 3: something so heavy and intense that it kind of makes

443
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,879
Speaker 3: this dip in the rubber sheet and it ends in

444
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,440
Speaker 3: a singularity maybe. And so that's kind of where the

445
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,919
Speaker 3: idea came from. Like what if this singularity down at

446
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,520
Speaker 3: the bottom of the rubber sheet somehow connected to another

447
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,639
Speaker 3: singularity from another black hole somewhere else in space.

448
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 1: And that rubber sheet analogy is useful forgetting you thinking

449
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,720
Speaker 1: about how space bends, but it's a little bit misleading

450
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,720
Speaker 1: sometimes because it suggests that space bends like into some

451
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,879
Speaker 1: other direction, like in the rubber sheet analogy, the universe

452
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 1: is a two dimensional rubber sheet, and it's bending in

453
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,440
Speaker 1: a third dimension. In our universe, it is three dimensions

454
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,600
Speaker 1: of space, but it doesn't bend in some like other

455
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,359
Speaker 1: weird fourth dimension. The bending is intrinsic, meaning it's all

456
00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 1: about the changing of the relative distances of points in space.

457
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,399
Speaker 1: And we don't know what it is that ties space together,

458
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,719
Speaker 1: like why is this bit of space next to that

459
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 1: bit of space next to that bit of space. And

460
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,440
Speaker 1: so what we're doing when we're making wormholes is we're

461
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,720
Speaker 1: just like fundamentally reorganizing the arrangement of space. We're saying,

462
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 1: this bit of space is now next to that bit

463
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,919
Speaker 1: of space. It's like you're sowing the universe together. You know,

464
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 1: you're knitting and you just sort of like make a

465
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 1: stitch from the front of your sweater to the back

466
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,360
Speaker 1: of your sweater and you say, these two things are

467
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,119
Speaker 1: now next to each other on my sweater.

468
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 3: Right, It's like you're taking this singularity from one black hole,

469
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 3: and then you're taking another singularity from another black hole,

470
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 3: and then you're joining them together. But doesn't that seem

471
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,960
Speaker 3: sort of implausible? Like isn't the point of a singularity

472
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 3: is that it's single? You know what I mean? Like

473
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,439
Speaker 3: it's supposed to be like unique and and you know,

474
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 3: a single point, Like how do you make two points

475
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:02,719
Speaker 3: meet up?

476
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 5: Oh?

477
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,399
Speaker 1: Man, I love that idea. No, you're right, it's a

478
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 1: funny name because there's not just one singularity in the universe, right,

479
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,160
Speaker 1: there's a singularity at the heart of every black hole,

480
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,480
Speaker 1: and so we shouldn't be called them singularities. They should

481
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 1: be called like what multipleularities.

482
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 3: Or many singularities? Apparently? Is that? Apparently they're not exclusive.

483
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 1: But the idea of a singularity just implies that something

484
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,879
Speaker 1: is becoming infinite, and in that case, the idea is

485
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 1: the density. The density is becoming infinite, So it's a

486
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,880
Speaker 1: singularity in that sense.

487
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 3: Right, That's what I mean. It's like, how do you

488
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 3: take an infinite danse point and connect it to another

489
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 3: infinite dance point? Like what are the chances they're going

490
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 3: to meet up together?

491
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we don't know, but it's possible. Like if

492
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 1: you plug that into Einstein's equation that comes out with

493
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,440
Speaker 1: a check mark. Like if you shape space in that

494
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 1: way and you say, can space have this shape, Einstein's

495
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 1: equation says, yes, you absolutely can.

496
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 3: Mmm. It's like can you mold the block of clay

497
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 3: into a donut? The answer is yes, and so therefore

498
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 3: donuts are possible.

499
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,239
Speaker 1: Just because that configuration satisfies Einstein's equations doesn't tell you

500
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: how to actually make it real, because in order to

501
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 1: make something, every step along the way also has to

502
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 1: satisfy the laws of physics. Right. It's sort of like

503
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 1: if you want to build an arch, like a Roman arch,

504
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 1: where you have those bricks that suspend each other. Yeah,

505
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,640
Speaker 1: you know that works if you can get it up there.

506
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 1: But you can't just like put one brick up there

507
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,639
Speaker 1: and have it levitate while you assemble the other bricks

508
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 1: below it. Every step in between also has to satisfy

509
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 1: the laws of physics. And that's the tricky part finding

510
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 1: a recipe to go from you don't have a wormhole

511
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 1: to now you do have a wormhole. Even if you

512
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 1: know the last step is allowed, every step in between

513
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 1: also has to be allowed.

514
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 3: M Interesting. All right, let's get into the different flavors

515
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 3: of wormholes, and let's get into the problems of making one.

516
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,360
Speaker 3: But first let's take a quick break.

517
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569
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570
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575
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Speaker 3: Right, Daniel, we are worming our way into the hearts

586
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 3: and minds of audiences everywhere. And we're talking about wormholes,

587
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 3: maybe a possible way for us to get to other

588
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 3: galaxies or other parts of the universe through a loophole

589
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 3: in the space time fabric of the universe. And so

590
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 3: you mentioned there are different flavors of wormholes, like you

591
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 3: can order a vanilla wormhole and a chocolate wormhole.

592
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: I recommend mint chip.

593
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 3: Really, it's the taste oh no, not mint well.

594
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 1: Exactly, And because people might be wondering, Hey, if I

595
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: want to get from here to Alpha Centauri, are you

596
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: telling me I have to use a wormhole which has

597
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: two black holes on it, because if you fall into

598
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: a black hole, coming out the other side.

599
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 3: Right yea.

600
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 1: And so that's why this wormhole is more like a

601
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: category of ideas. And the kind we're looking for is

602
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: a traversible wormhole, one that you can go into and

603
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 1: actually come out the other side. Not every wormhole you

604
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: can imagine in physics satisfies that requirement. For example, when

605
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: we have two black holes with a common singularity, definitely

606
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: not a trip I would recommend. But there are other

607
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,199
Speaker 1: flavors of wormholes. One we've talked about in the podcast

608
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: before is a black hole with a singularity, and on

609
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 1: the other side, instead of being another black hole, is

610
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 1: now a white hole, something which is like the inverse

611
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: of a black hole. Instead of something that's impossible to escape,

612
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: it's something that's impossible to fall into. So you fall

613
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: into the black hole side of it, passed through somehow,

614
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: and then come out the white hole side some other

615
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: place in the universe.

616
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 3: I see. So this is like the chocolate vanilla swirl

617
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 3: flavor a wormhole.

618
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they don't swirl, right, there's a singularity of

619
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: the heart there that keeps them apart, which is the

620
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: best kind, because if you order chocolate and vanilla swirl,

621
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: you don't want them mixed together because then it's just

622
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: like sort of you know, light chocolate.

623
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 3: You want the contrast, right, Maybe it's more like cookies

624
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 3: and cream them. Well, so you're saying that another type

625
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 3: of wormhole is one that connects a black hole to

626
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 3: a white hole. Now, our white holes are sort of

627
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 3: like the inverse of a black hole, where it doesn't

628
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 3: suck things in, it actually spews things out. And these

629
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 3: are also theoretically possible, but unlike black holes, we've never

630
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 3: observed any white holes. Right.

631
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: That's right, black holes theoretically possible and observed. We're pretty

632
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: sure they exist, though. Check out some of our episodes

633
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,479
Speaker 1: about like quantum stars and dark nos about whether they

634
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: actually are out there in the universe. But wormholes and

635
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: white holes still purely theoretical. Nobody's ever seen one. We

636
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: don't actually know if they can exist in the universe,

637
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: although the math suggests that they are possible.

638
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 3: I see, so you could maybe take the singularity from

639
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 3: a white hole and connect it to a singularity from

640
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 3: a black hole, But wouldn't they be sort of different

641
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 3: kinds of singularities or it's still allowed by the theory.

642
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: No, it's a single singularity. In fact, if you look

643
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: at like the Penrose diagram for it black hole, this

644
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: is something that's pretty cool. It lets you like think

645
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: about the shape of space in the vicinity of a

646
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: black hole. There's sort of a gap on the other

647
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: side of the Penrose diagram. If the black hole in

648
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: our universe, which is centered around the singularity, and then

649
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: the diagram has this gap, and you're like, what's on

650
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: the other side, And that's sort of the genesis of

651
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: the idea of a white hole. It's like the other

652
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: side of the singularity. And so it would be very

653
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: natural for a black hole and a white hole to

654
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: be connected by a singularity. But again, this wouldn't necessarily

655
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: be a traversible wormhole, right because like you got to

656
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: pass through a singularity that sounds like a pretty tight squeeze.

657
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, you'd have to really lose a lot of

658
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 3: weight be that single and so that's also not a

659
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 3: traversible wormhole.

660
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: When that you'd like to pass through. But there are

661
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: other kinds of ideas about wormholes, and these are a

662
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: little bit more exotic, but there also may be more

663
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: promising because it turns out to have a connection between

664
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: two points in space, you don't necessarily even need any mass.

665
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: You might not even need a singularity at all.

666
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 3: What do you mean, like, how can you have a

667
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 3: wormhole without a singularity or without a hole.

668
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: Well, it's just a question of having space be curved

669
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: in the right way that this patch of space and

670
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 1: that patch of space can't connect to each other, and

671
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: so people talk about whether that's possible. Obviously, singularities are

672
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: incredibly dense. Sources of mass can curve space, but that's

673
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: not the only way to get space to be curved.

674
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: And it's possible to have curved space without necessarily having

675
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: any mass. So, for example, in the vicinity of a

676
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: black hole, where you don't actually have any mass, space

677
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: is still curved. Right. There's like complex interesting geometry near

678
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: a black hole, even though you're not actually in the

679
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: massive part of it. And so it's a bit of

680
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: a stretch. But if you might be able to come

681
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: up with some solutions to the Einstein equations that connect

682
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,719
Speaker 1: two portions of space without actually having any huge amounts

683
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: of mass, without any singularities at all. And so this

684
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: is the kind of wormhole which might actually be traversible.

685
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 3: I see you're saying, like, we know that space is

686
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 3: kind of bendable and squishy, so why not, like it's

687
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 3: theoretically possible you could just wish it all the way

688
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 3: into a tunnel without needing a black hole. Yeah, but

689
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 3: you have no idea how to do that.

690
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: I have no idea how to do that. I mean,

691
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: I have some ideas how to do that, I have

692
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: no plausible ideas how to do that. I don't have

693
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: a recipe that one can follow. And before you even

694
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: get there, there are theoretical problems with these kinds of wormholes.

695
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: One is that these kind of wormholes, when people play

696
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: with them in the equations, they tend to try to

697
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: like snapshot immediately. They're not stable. It's not like a

698
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: black hole which you can sit there forever, essentially sucking

699
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: stuff up. These kind of wormholes, when you set them up,

700
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: they collapse. They're like pinch closed. These tubes don't like

701
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: to just sort of like hang out connecting two parts

702
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: of space. They pinch off almost immediately.

703
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 3: You mean, like if I just take space and I

704
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 3: dig a hole or connect too far away points together,

705
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 3: your equation is to actually tell you that it's not stable,

706
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 3: Like why wouldn't it be stable? Wouldn't space just sit

707
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 3: there and stay bent.

708
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: It's a great question. And just to clarify it, like,

709
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: we don't know how to dig this hole, but say

710
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: you started with universe where that hole existed, we don't

711
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: know how to go from there's no hole to there

712
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: is a hole. Say you had the universe with this

713
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: one of these wormholes in it, where space already came

714
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: built that way, then we can't play with it and say,

715
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: what would happen in this scenario. I just like, I

716
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: don't know how to make two black holes collide. But

717
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: you know, if it's already happening in the universe, our

718
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: calculations can tell you what to expect.

719
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 3: I see, it's like you bought a house and you

720
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 3: discovered it has a secret tunnel in the middle of

721
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 3: your house.

722
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and then we can ask, well, what would happen,

723
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: and the calculation suggests that it would pinch closed immediately

724
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: because like the pressure from the curving of space would

725
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: immediately collapse.

726
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 3: This interesting mean that space doesn't like to be bent.

727
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: It's not stable, right, I mean, I don't want to

728
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: say what space likes, if it likes mintship or if

729
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: it likes vanilla, you know, but it doesn't stay that way.

730
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: It's not stable unless you add something to your wormhole.

731
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 3: Like, it's not stable. Like the equations tell you that

732
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 3: in the next instant in time, curvature would snap back

733
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 3: into flat space.

734
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Just like if you put a particle near

735
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: a black hole, that's not a stable configuration. The particle

736
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: will roll into the black hole eventually, right. You can't

737
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: just have it hanging out out there. The dynamics predict

738
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: that things will change, you know. Some things are stable,

739
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: like a particle can be an orbit around a black hole.

740
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: That is a stable configuration. So there are some stable

741
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 1: solutions to the Einstein equitions, but there are also some

742
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: that are unstable. They won't just like hang out with

743
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,240
Speaker 1: the same solution forever. But Kip Thorn and some friends

744
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: came up with the idea of how to keep that

745
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: throat from collapsing.

746
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 3: Interesting, just get a bigger worm, they.

747
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: Said, actually get a negative worm. What they discovered is

748
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: that you need some sort of like repulsion. Right, Gravity

749
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: tends to be attractive. I'm attracted by the Earth, and

750
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: the Earth is attracted by the Sun, and the Sun

751
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: is attracted by the rest of the Milky Way. We

752
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: tend to see gravity as an attractive force in the universe. Here,

753
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: what we need is like repulsion. We need something like

754
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: pressing on the edges of the throat of the wormhole

755
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 1: to keep it open. And to do that you need

756
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: gravity to do the opposite of what it usually does.

757
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: And so they thought, well, perhaps if you had like

758
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 1: negative energy density, something with like negative mass instead of

759
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: positive mass, you would apply some sort of like pressure

760
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 1: on the edge this wormhole, and it would keep it open.

761
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: It would keep it from collapsing gravitationally.

762
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 3: Wouldn't that be the same as sort of like a

763
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 3: white hole, right, like something that's the opposite of super heavy.

764
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: It's the opposite, but in another direction, right, a white

765
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: hole is the opposite of a black hole. And then

766
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: it's like the inverted shape of space time, but here

767
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: it's the opposite of mass. I think it's pretty cool though.

768
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: In particle physics we have lots of like opposites. You

769
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: have matter anti matter, you have positive mass and negative mass.

770
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: You have you know, electrons and different flavors of electrons,

771
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: muons and towels. There's so many different.

772
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 3: Reflections physicists and engineers.

773
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: Engineers and mint chip engineers, you know.

774
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 3: That's right. And lawyers, lawyers exactly.

775
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: And so the idea is if you have some kind

776
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: of matter with negative energy density to it, you know,

777
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: like a particle with negative mass, which is something we've

778
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: never seen, and you threaded that through your wormhole, then

779
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 1: that configuration is actually stable. They will keep the wormholes open.

780
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,919
Speaker 3: Interesting, so are we still talking about like a big

781
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 3: tunnel in space or talking about a wormhole that only

782
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 3: like a single particle can go through.

783
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: That's the other problem is that in their calculations this

784
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: is like particle level wormholes. We're talking microscopic wormholes. And

785
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: so you know, if we're going to send Jorge to

786
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: Alpha Centauri, we would have to combine this with some

787
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 1: machine that like disintegrated you into your particles or your

788
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: information and then like beamed photons through it and reassembled you.

789
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: On the other end, this is not something you could

790
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: like pass a living object or a macroscopic object through.

791
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 3: I see well, I mean, I guess, paint a picture

792
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 3: to me, like, how do we keep it open? Then

793
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,879
Speaker 3: you have to keep feeding it this negative mass, this

794
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 3: inverse negative energy matter through it, Like there has to

795
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 3: be a stream of it, or it's like the scaffolding

796
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 3: that holds it open, and it's there and then we

797
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 3: pass kind of in the middle of it.

798
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's more like the scaffolding. As long as it

799
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,959
Speaker 1: hangs out inside the wormhole, it should keep it open.

800
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: But again, we don't know that negative mass exists. So

801
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 1: this was sort of the forefront of current thinking until

802
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 1: a few years ago. People thought, well, wormholes, maybe they exist,

803
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 1: but they need us to use this kind of exotic matter,

804
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,240
Speaker 1: which is theoretical which might not exist in the universe.

805
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 3: But which is theoretically possible.

806
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 1: It's theoretically possible. Yeah, that we've never seen it, and

807
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 1: it would be really weird. And we actually have a

808
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: whole podcast episode about exotic matter and how strange it

809
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: might be, so check that out if you like. But

810
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: now people are thinking about other ways to maybe keep

811
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 1: wormholes open, and maybe to make them larger, to make

812
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: the macroscopic so you can put like real people and

813
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: objects and you know, your suitcase through.

814
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 3: It interesting, so we have some new ideas, and so

815
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 3: this is something physicists actually work on. Like you know,

816
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 3: it's not just science fiction authors and TV writers that

817
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 3: think about these things. It's like a field. There are

818
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 3: wormhole physicists.

819
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 1: There are This is not like the lunatic fringe, like

820
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: people the very end of their careers noodling around with

821
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: crazy ideas they daren't mention otherwise. These are prominent folks,

822
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: you know. Kip Thorn is like mainstream physicist you want

823
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,879
Speaker 1: a Nobel Prize. There's guys like Juan Maldicena, who's one

824
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: of the smartest guys in the universe. At the Institute

825
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: for Advanced Science, Cutting edge string theorist works on this

826
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. It's a really interesting area because it's

827
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 1: not just like, hey, can we get to other places

828
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: in the universe. It touches really deep questions about the

829
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 1: nature of space and time itself and connects to questions

830
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: in string theory and quantum information and black hole information paradoxes,

831
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: and so wormholes have become like really core to a

832
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: lot of these questions. If you remember that episode we

833
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: had recently about the potential solution to the black hole

834
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: information paradox. One of those solutions implies that there's like

835
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: a wormhole that connects the inside of the black hole

836
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: to your simulation of a black hole on your computer,

837
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: like an informational wormhole. And so these wormholes are like

838
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: popping up everywhere these days on the forefront of theoretical physics.

839
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 3: Interesting, all right, So what are some of these new

840
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 3: ideas about wormholes.

841
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: So one of the new ideas about how to keep

842
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: a wormhole open says, well, let's not try to use

843
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: something that doesn't exist in the universe, like negative mass matter,

844
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: because maybe that doesn't exist and so it's not practical. Instead,

845
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 1: let's try to use some of the cool features of

846
00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics to maybe keep this wormhole open. Mechanics has

847
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: really fascinating properties, and one of the most interesting is

848
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: something called entanglement. When you connect two particles which can

849
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: be really far apart, but you have their fates intertwined. So,

850
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: for example, maybe you have a photon which decays to

851
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: two electrons, and those two electrons have to like satisfy

852
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: one of the rules of the original photon. You know,

853
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: if the photon had no spin, for example, then the

854
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: two electrons together have to have no spin when you

855
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: add them up, which means if one electron is spin up,

856
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 1: the other one has to be spinned down. So you

857
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: have these two electrons and maybe they're now like really

858
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: far apart, they're a light year apart in the universe.

859
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: As soon as you know one of them is spin up,

860
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: the other one has to be spinned down. Quantum mechanics

861
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: tells you that both of them can be in either state,

862
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: and until you measure electron A, you don't actually know

863
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: what's going on with electron B. So these two particles

864
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 1: are entangled. There's some like weird spooky connection between them

865
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: because as soon as you ask about electron B and

866
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: discover oh it's spin up or oh it's spin down,

867
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: now you know something about electron B. So this is

868
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: like a way to connect two places in space somehow

869
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: across vast distances. And this collapse, this coordination of their

870
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: results seems to be instantaneous. So this is a starting

871
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: place to think about, like how to maybe make connections

872
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: between two points in space using quantum mechanics rather than

873
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: general relativity.

874
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 3: Mmm, I see all right, So these two electrons are

875
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 3: tied together by some rule of quantum mechanics, and now

876
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 3: how to use them to keep a wormhole over.

877
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 1: So this is going to sound bonkers, right, even on

878
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: top of all the bonker stuff we've been talking about today.

879
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 1: The idea is if you can entangle the two edges

880
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: of the wormhole. So take your wormhole, which otherwise would

881
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: have collapsed, and somehow entangle the two boundaries, Like you

882
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: have a boundary of the wormhole in this part of

883
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 1: space and the edge of the wormhole in the other

884
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: part of space. Somehow quantum entangled those two boundaries, so

885
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: they're like linked by quantum mechanics, and there's gonna be

886
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: a connection between them. That entanglement between them creates like

887
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 1: a special field which creates negative energy density in inside

888
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: the wormhole, which is equivalent to having negative mass in there.

889
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 1: So it does the same job as negative mass matter,

890
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 1: but without actually having to have any negative mass.

891
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 3: Wait what all right? So you're saying that if I

892
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 3: entangle two electrons m right, Like I have two electrons entangled,

893
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 3: and I have one here and I have one there

894
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 3: where you are, you know, fifty miles away. You're saying

895
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 3: there's some kind of like energy linked to them. Some energy,

896
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 3: some negative energy linking them together, or there's some negative

897
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 3: energy in between us.

898
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a negative energy field in between these two objects.

899
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 3: Like a real tangible field or like a theoretical field.

900
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: It's like a theoretical field. I mean, nobody really understands

901
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: quantum entanglement. Frankly, it's a mystery. It's not something that

902
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: we really understand what's going on. And in the various

903
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: interpretations of quantum mechanics, there are different explanations for it,

904
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 1: and there are even viable theories of quantum mechanics that

905
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: suggest that entanglement can be explained by like hidden variables,

906
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: that there is no randomness anyway. A lot of this

907
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: is still theoretical, but it doesn't involve in vote looking

908
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: negative mass particles.

909
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 3: Just negative energy we exists, but which in these calculations

910
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 3: does come out of this special entanglement.

911
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: If you entangle two sides of wormhole, the idea is

912
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 1: that now they are connected in this special way and

913
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: that keeps them from collapsing.

914
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 3: Interesting, like there's actual like energy between them that is

915
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 3: somehow keeping this wormhole open.

916
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some way that these two are connected now, right,

917
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 1: Because if you have two electrons that have their fates entangled.

918
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 1: They are part of the same wave function, and that

919
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 1: wave function is a ripple in some quantum field, and

920
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 1: so there's a field that it now goes through the

921
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,919
Speaker 1: wormhole connecting these two electrons and basically keeps them from

922
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: snapping shut. The way I think about it in my

923
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: mind is like you have this wormhole which wants to

924
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 1: close down, but there's a thread that's through it, and

925
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: that thread is the entanglement of these two particles, and

926
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: it keeps it from closing.

927
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 3: M Why wouldn't they just close cut the cord.

928
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 1: And break the rules of quantum mechanics, sir, what are

929
00:42:58,360 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: you talking about? That's crazy.

930
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 3: You're inventing things left and right. Here, I'm going to

931
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 3: invent the quantum scissors that the universe has to what

932
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:05,280
Speaker 3: it wants.

933
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: Well, nobody knows if this is real. And you know,

934
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: this is a calculation in a paper by one Maldicenna,

935
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: again one of the real smarty pants in the universe.

936
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: And I took this paper to some theoretical physicists I know,

937
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: and frankly a lot of them said, you know, I

938
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,359
Speaker 1: don't understand this paper. But one Maldesenna is a really

939
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:21,919
Speaker 1: smart guy, so I believe it's true.

940
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 3: I see, he's like negative energy. He's got to assume

941
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 3: me exists in his right.

942
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: He's never made a mistake before, so people trust his calculations.

943
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 1: I didn't understand the details of the paper. Theoretical physicists

944
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: I talked to also admitted not understanding how the calculations work.

945
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: But this is a prediction of those calculations.

946
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 3: Okay, So that's one way to keep a wormhole open,

947
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 3: and so there are other ways, including using dark matter.

948
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 3: So let's get into those other ways to make wormholes.

949
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 3: But for us, let's take another quick break.

950
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,400
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951
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,640
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952
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,720
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953
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954
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955
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956
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957
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958
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959
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960
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,880
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961
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,920
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962
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963
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: electric cars. So the next time you grab a slice

964
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,480
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965
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,200
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966
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,040
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967
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,759
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968
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969
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970
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983
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984
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985
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988
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989
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990
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991
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992
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993
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,680
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994
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,040
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995
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:08,360
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996
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,560
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997
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:12,840
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998
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,080
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999
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 3: Class terms and conditions apply all right, we are struggling

1000
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 3: to keep wormholes open because the universe wants to shut

1001
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 3: them down. If there is a path between two distant

1002
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 3: points in space, some kind of tunnel, the universe actually

1003
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 3: wants to close them. It wants to zip up that hole.

1004
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 3: And so the big problem with making wormholes is how

1005
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,359
Speaker 3: to keep them open. So we talked about maybe using

1006
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 3: quantum entanglement, which is very theoretical, but there might be

1007
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 3: a way to do it with dark matter. Daniel, right, Well,

1008
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 3: we talked.

1009
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: About how to maybe keep them open using quantum entanglement,

1010
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 1: which is super fun. And before we move on to

1011
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,320
Speaker 1: how to make them large and macroscopic using dark I

1012
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: just want to talk about one more advantage of that solution,

1013
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: which is that it might solve this time travel paradox

1014
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: we've talked about sometimes how wormholes might be a way

1015
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 1: to travel through time because one edge of the wormhole

1016
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 1: might be in the present and the other edge might

1017
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 1: be in the past. Somehow, if you like boost the

1018
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 1: edge of the wormholes so it's going at relativistic speeds,

1019
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: you can take advantage of special relativity and the two

1020
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: sides of the wormhole could be at different times. The

1021
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: cool thing about quantum entanglement as a way to keep

1022
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: the wormhole open is that it prevents any of those

1023
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: paradoxes from happening, because now you've made like a direct link,

1024
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: a connection between the two boundaries of the wormhole and

1025
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: actually prevents any time travel paradoxes from happening. So it's

1026
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 1: sort of cool in that way, sort of neat when

1027
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: you see a solution to a problem also prevent other

1028
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,959
Speaker 1: problems from cropping up. It's sometimes a hint that maybe

1029
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: you're going in the right direction.

1030
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,800
Speaker 3: M I didn't know that paradoxes were possible with wormholes.

1031
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:51,919
Speaker 3: I thought that, you know, they might connect space time,

1032
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 3: which means you can travel back in time, but since

1033
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 3: you're all part of the same universe, you can sort

1034
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 3: of change the past.

1035
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,320
Speaker 1: Well, that's true in some other configurations of general timety,

1036
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 1: like closed timelike curves, which put you in like a

1037
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: forever loop where you're repeating yourself. Wormholes, however, do potentially

1038
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 1: open the door to paradoxes, because if you can travel

1039
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 1: into the past, you're not in that past limited to

1040
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: repeating what you did last time. So it's not something

1041
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: people understand how to reconcile wormholes with paradoxes and causality.

1042
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,320
Speaker 1: But this solution to keeping wormholes open does actually rectify

1043
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: that because by directly connecting the two edges of the

1044
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 1: wormhole using quantum entanglement, you prevent any of these paradoxes

1045
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 1: from happening.

1046
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 3: Hmmm, that's good news. I guess we don't want to

1047
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 3: crash the universe.

1048
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 1: It's good news for your grandfather because you can no

1049
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: longer go back in time and kill him.

1050
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 3: Or your grandkids. Exactly, the ease for you because your

1051
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 3: grands might come back too.

1052
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,439
Speaker 1: That's right, exactly. You ate all the mint chip, you jerk.

1053
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 3: It's a capital offense.

1054
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 1: The other problem we're trying to solve with wormholes is

1055
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 1: not just to keep them open, but to make them

1056
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: big enough for us to go inside. We talked about

1057
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: how they are just like particle sized. These kind of

1058
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 1: wormholes we're talking about are like big enough to send

1059
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 1: one particle through. So one thing people are working on

1060
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: is like, how do you make a wormhole whose throat

1061
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 1: is macroscopic. It's like, you know, two meters wide, so

1062
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 1: that like a person or a spaceship or a rocket

1063
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: could go through them and that's the solution we tried

1064
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: to address by adding dark matter to the.

1065
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 3: Equation M right, because all of the ones that we've

1066
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 3: talked about before, you can only send like literally one

1067
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,320
Speaker 3: particle at a time. But you can't send two particles

1068
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 3: next to each other, only one behind the other. And

1069
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 3: so how do you make one big enough to like

1070
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 3: fit a spaceship through.

1071
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: Well, nobody knows. But in the same paper one Maldcena

1072
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: worked on this problem and he thought, well, let's try

1073
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: to come up with a way to make them larger.

1074
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 1: And let's again not use like a crazy invented exotic

1075
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: matter that we don't know exists. Let's think about the

1076
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: things that do exist in the universe. So he explored

1077
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 1: what would happen if you use dark matter, but again

1078
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 1: not just like normal, everyday dark matter. He was considering

1079
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 1: dark matter in combination with another idea of additional spatial dimensions.

1080
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 1: We've talked on this podcast about how the universe seems

1081
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 1: to have three directions you can go in space, but

1082
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,479
Speaker 1: there are some parts of physics that suggests there should

1083
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 1: be other directions you should move. In string theory, for example,

1084
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: you know likes eleven or twenty six dimensions, which would

1085
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 1: mean that they're like you know, not just up and down,

1086
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 1: left and right and forward and backwards, but other weird

1087
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: little dimensions that some particles can move through. We wouldn't

1088
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 1: be able to notice them or see them or move

1089
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 1: in them, but it would be features of space. So

1090
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: he explored the idea that if there are these other

1091
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 1: features of space, it would change sort of how particles

1092
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 1: move through that space, and it would change how gravity works,

1093
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: which means it would change how space is bent. So

1094
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 1: if you combine dark matter with these weird extra dimensions,

1095
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: then you could use them to build a wormhole which

1096
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 1: is really really wide, big enough that you could actually

1097
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 1: pass a person through.

1098
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 3: Well, how does it work? Well, what's the theory prescribed?

1099
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 3: What are the instructions in this paper? Can make a

1100
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:49,720
Speaker 3: wormhole white?

1101
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: So you need a lot of dark matter, and they'd

1102
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 1: go through the calculation in order to have a wormhole

1103
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 1: whose mouth is wide enough for a human to fit,

1104
00:50:57,719 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 1: but not just that for a human to pass through

1105
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 1: without being torn apart by the tidal forces and these

1106
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 1: incredible forces of gravity that tuck on you more strongly

1107
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: at your feet than on your head and would tear

1108
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:09,919
Speaker 1: you apart if you got close to a black hole.

1109
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 1: If you want a wormhole that's big enough for a

1110
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: human to go through and wouldn't tear you apart, then

1111
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: the mouth of it needs to be three thousand light

1112
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: years wide, which means constructing something out of dark matter.

1113
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,800
Speaker 1: It's three thousand light years in diameter.

1114
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 3: Whoa, that's like much bigger than our galaxy, right or

1115
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 3: even like you know, take up like a corner of

1116
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 3: the known universe.

1117
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 1: Well, our galaxy is something like one hundred thousand light

1118
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,240
Speaker 1: years across, but it's definitely much bigger than our solar system.

1119
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 1: So we're talking about a massive engineering project, you know.

1120
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 1: But hey, this is like the first paper on it.

1121
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: The next one it'll only be a thousand light years wide,

1122
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 1: and then eventually somebody figure out how to make it

1123
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: one light year wide, and then you know, the engineers

1124
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: will take over and they'll figure out how to actually

1125
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 1: build this thing.

1126
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 3: It'll be as wide as your phone. Well, but I

1127
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 3: guess what's the actual recipe, Like you have to take

1128
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 3: dark matter and shape it somehow, or just put it

1129
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 3: all in one place, or be lucky that it's somehow

1130
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 3: just exist with this wormhole with dark matter in it, Like,

1131
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 3: what do you have to do to make this wormhole work?

1132
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: So again, he doesn't sketch out a recipe for building

1133
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: this thing, just that if you have a wormhole and

1134
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 1: space has these extra dimensions, and you have dark matter

1135
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,360
Speaker 1: inside this wormhole, and you have the two edges of

1136
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 1: the wormholes quantum mechanically entangled, then that solution is stable

1137
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: and would allow for people to pass through it. So

1138
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 1: there's no recipe for like, here's how you put this

1139
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 1: thing together, or here's the configuration of dark matter you

1140
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: need in order to make this happen. It's just like

1141
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 1: this configuration would satisfy the equations and meet all of

1142
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 1: these constraints of being large enough and being stable.

1143
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 3: I see, But what's the dark matter doing? Like, is

1144
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 3: it just sitting in the middle of it? Is it

1145
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 3: shaped like a tube? Is it just hanging out at

1146
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 3: the ends of it? Is there any sort of specifications

1147
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 3: about this or is just a very abstract idea.

1148
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: It's just sort of an abstract idea. The dark matter

1149
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: is there in order to explain why you have these

1150
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,279
Speaker 1: extra dimensions of space and time and to reconcile all

1151
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 1: that together with all the other astronomical observations we have

1152
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,479
Speaker 1: about the nature of the universe. And so the game

1153
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: I think Kuan Mela Sena was playing was like, can

1154
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: I use things that we already know exist in the

1155
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 1: universe and features of those theories to try to construct

1156
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 1: a wormhole which works. There's no description in this paper

1157
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 1: of like what shape the dark matter has to be in,

1158
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 1: or where the dark matter needs to go, or what

1159
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 1: this wormhole would look like.

1160
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:18,319
Speaker 3: I see.

1161
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 1: In fact, here's a quote from the paper. He says, quote,

1162
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 1: another problem seems to be producing the wormhole in the

1163
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 1: first place. This seems difficult. When one of the smartest

1164
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 1: guys in the universe says this seems difficult, you know,

1165
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 1: it's not an easy problem.

1166
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:34,280
Speaker 3: I see. I feel like he's giving us a recipe

1167
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 3: for a soufle. But he's just saying, hey, maybe maybe

1168
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 3: if he's throwing some flour, maybe in some cream and

1169
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,399
Speaker 3: maybe some you know, some sugar, maybe you could make

1170
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 3: a soufle. But good luck with that.

1171
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: You know. The cutting edge soufla theorists, that's how they

1172
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: get started. They're like, you know, what are the ingredients

1173
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 1: of a soufle? We don't even know, is it possible theoretically,

1174
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 1: and you know, eventually one hundred years later we have

1175
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 1: a recipe for a soufle.

1176
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:56,800
Speaker 3: Interesting, all right, So another way to make a wormhole

1177
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 3: and maybe keep it open and make it big enough

1178
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 3: for us to fit through. Where are some of the

1179
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 3: problems with that?

1180
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 1: Well, one problem is we don't know how to build

1181
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: that thing. Right. We're talking again about a solution that

1182
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 1: we know might satisfy the equations, but we don't know

1183
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 1: how to go from here to there. Another issue is

1184
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 1: if you have these kind of entrances to the wormhole.

1185
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 1: We're talking about space being really really curved, and when

1186
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 1: space is curved, it doesn't just affect where you go,

1187
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 1: it also affects how time passes. We've talked on the

1188
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:25,319
Speaker 1: podcast once about gravitational time dilation. Anytime you're in a

1189
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,800
Speaker 1: place where space is curved, your clock moves more slowly,

1190
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 1: and so, for example, if you go through this wormhole,

1191
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 1: it might be that your clock slows down. And so

1192
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 1: even though you can pass through the wormhole in what

1193
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 1: feels to you like an instant, to someone on the outside,

1194
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,760
Speaker 1: you would slow down and almost freeze as you pass

1195
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 1: through the wormhole. And then when you come out the

1196
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: other side, you'd be moving super slow in time. Also,

1197
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 1: so according to their calculations, you can't actually get from

1198
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,280
Speaker 1: one place to another faster than light would have gone

1199
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 1: because of these time dilation effects I see.

1200
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,240
Speaker 3: So, like, if I have the opening of a wormhole

1201
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 3: in front of me, you go through it, and I

1202
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 3: should have flashlight to the other end, which is like

1203
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 3: maybe a couple of miles away. You're saying, my light,

1204
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 3: my flashlight would actually get there, like I could have

1205
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 3: gone there faster without going through the wormhole exactly.

1206
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: So in that sense, they're theoretically awesome but totally useless

1207
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 1: because there's time dilation effect, which is really a pretty

1208
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:21,439
Speaker 1: big deal. You know. That's like a very important piece

1209
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 1: of fine print.

1210
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 3: Right, Like, so I would I would flash my flashlight,

1211
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 3: and I would see you go in, but then I

1212
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,759
Speaker 3: would see you sort of freeze at the mouth of it,

1213
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 3: kind of right, sort of like you freeze when you

1214
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 3: fall into a black hole. Exactly, at least to the

1215
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:34,759
Speaker 3: people outside of the black hole, I would see you

1216
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 3: just get stuck in the hole.

1217
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

1218
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,240
Speaker 3: Wow, that is the least useful warhole ever.

1219
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. It's like a star trek teleporter, but they

1220
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: just freeze you into a block of ice and then

1221
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: put you on a carrier ship and like you know,

1222
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 1: ship you over there and then thaw you out. So

1223
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 1: it's not very useful at all.

1224
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 3: No, No, I mean I would never see you go through, right,

1225
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 3: is that what you're saying that? Or would just be

1226
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:56,800
Speaker 3: super slow the time would actually freeze.

1227
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 1: It would just be super slow. The time doesn't actually

1228
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,359
Speaker 1: freeze stop, but it would take you longer to go

1229
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 1: through the wormhole than if you went around the wormhole.

1230
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:06,760
Speaker 3: What if I just make it bigger.

1231
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:11,280
Speaker 1: Well, the time diletion effect gets stronger as the wormhole

1232
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 1: gets more powerful because the curvature increases.

1233
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 3: I see, all right, So that's another problem, is that

1234
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 3: it's not useful at all. But I guess the point

1235
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 3: is that, you know, time doesn't slow down for the

1236
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 3: person going through the tunnel, so like, yeah, the person

1237
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 3: going through the tunnel to another galaxy, it would just

1238
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 3: be like a breeze, except you wouldn't have to be

1239
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 3: asleep or cryogenic sleep for like thousands or millions of years.

1240
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, just like if you somehow got up to the

1241
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 1: speed of light traveling across the galaxy, would seem to

1242
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 1: you like it didn't take very much time, because for you,

1243
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:44,320
Speaker 1: the galaxy would be Lorentz contracted. It would be like shortened,

1244
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 1: so it doesn't seem like you're going as far. So

1245
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,720
Speaker 1: for you, you could survive travel to really really distant

1246
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: parts of the galaxy. It's just that if you walk

1247
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 1: through the wormhole and then you came back, you know,

1248
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:56,399
Speaker 1: millions of years might have passed. So you know, say

1249
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 1: goodbye to your family before you step in, yeah.

1250
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 3: Or say hello to your great great great great great

1251
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 3: great grandchildren when you come out the other end.

1252
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're so lucky. Yeah.

1253
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 3: So what are some of the other problems.

1254
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 1: Well, another problem is the temperature. You know, as you

1255
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 1: fall into this wormhole, you're accelerated by the curvature of space.

1256
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 1: So they did this calculation in this paper, and you

1257
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 1: get like an energy boost of a factor of two trillion,

1258
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 1: So a particle gets like really sped up as it enters.

1259
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 1: So one has this other quote in his paper, which

1260
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 1: I found hilarious. He says, so one would have to

1261
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: put the huge black hole inside a refrigerator in order

1262
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 1: to prevent this. So not only is he speculating about

1263
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 1: a three thousand light year wide wormhole, but a refrigerator

1264
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 1: that you could put that entire wormhole into.

1265
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 3: I feel like my freezer is a black hole in

1266
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 3: my kitchen right now. But you're saying like that it

1267
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 3: does sort of act like a black hole, and that like,

1268
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 3: if you're near the mouth of the wormhole, it would

1269
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 3: suck you in kind of that what you're saying, and

1270
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 3: accelerate you to fast speeds.

1271
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 1: And it would be fast in your frame of reference.

1272
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 1: Right from the outside, you would still be time slowed down,

1273
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 1: so you wouldn't be moving that fast from somebody else

1274
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 1: else's point of view, But from your point of view,

1275
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 1: you would be moving quickly towards the mouth of the.

1276
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 3: Wormhole, which would be very exciting. Like that would make

1277
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 3: it fun, right, You'd be.

1278
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 1: Like, Wow, makes for a better ride.

1279
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 3: What are you saying the problem is that that's dangerous

1280
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 3: somehow to be moving that fast or are you saying

1281
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 3: like we would heat up somehow?

1282
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're basically giving a high temperature to these objects.

1283
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: And you might not worry about that because you know,

1284
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 1: like energy is frame dependent. I'm not moving at any

1285
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 1: speed in my reference frame. Somebody flying by me near

1286
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 1: the speed of light sees me moving at almost the

1287
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 1: speed of light, So you could argue that I have

1288
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 1: like a very high temperature in that frame of reference,

1289
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 1: doesn't bother me at all in my frame because I

1290
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 1: see myself as moving it in zero velocity. So temperature

1291
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 1: and energy are sort of frame dependent and so not

1292
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 1: necessarily something I think you should worry about. I just

1293
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 1: enjoy thinking about a three thousand light year wide refrigerator.

1294
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 3: He's not just the smartest man on Earth. He's also

1295
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 3: pretty funny, I guess. But wouldn't you slow down when

1296
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 3: you come out the other end, like, as you come

1297
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 3: out with this blinding speed, wouldn't the other mouth of

1298
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 3: the wormholes you down like try to suck you back in.

1299
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sort of like rolling down a hill on

1300
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 1: a roller coaster, and then you roll up the other side,

1301
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 1: So you gain speed as you fall in, and then

1302
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 1: you lose the speed as you come out. And so

1303
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 1: in theory, you know, sort of like jumping through a

1304
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 1: hole in the earth, you should come out the other

1305
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 1: side with no velocity, right.

1306
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 3: Right, And so then they would have to make the

1307
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 3: black hole big enough not just to fit you, but

1308
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 3: also for you to raise your hands right, like in

1309
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 3: a roller coaster for the.

1310
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 1: Through exactly, and they'd have to put a camera somewhere

1311
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 1: to capture as you go in.

1312
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 3: And then sell it to you for fifty dollars on

1313
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 3: the other side. All right, Well, so wormals are possible,

1314
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 3: and it might be possible to make one and keep

1315
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 3: one open and make one big enough for us to

1316
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 3: fit in, but it requires some of these sort of

1317
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:42,400
Speaker 3: extreme theories and some of these sort of extreme theoretical

1318
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 3: concepts to be true. So, Daniel, what does it all mean?

1319
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:47,440
Speaker 3: What does it mean about our understanding about how space works.

1320
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 1: It's a really exciting field to try to keep up

1321
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 1: with because people are really like playing with what space

1322
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 1: can do, and every time they develop one of these theories,

1323
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 1: they get like more insight into like what space is

1324
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: and how it works, and sort of like space engineering,

1325
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 1: you know, or space time engineering. I think it's pretty

1326
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 1: fun stuff. And there's an idea like around the edges

1327
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 1: of this which has been bubbling around in theoretical physics

1328
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 1: for a long time, which I think is really deep

1329
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 1: and it's connected to this, and that's the idea that

1330
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 1: space itself might be built using wormholes. Like we talked

1331
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 1: earlier about how space is connected and this piece is

1332
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 1: connected to that piece, and you know you are in

1333
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 1: a part of space. You can go to the part

1334
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:25,720
Speaker 1: of space that's next to you. You can't just jump

1335
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 1: from here to Alpha Centauri. There's this connectedness in space.

1336
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:32,120
Speaker 1: People don't really understand what that is or how it works.

1337
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 1: One idea of what space is is that maybe it's

1338
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:37,920
Speaker 1: these like little space pixels that are somehow woven together

1339
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 1: to make this fabric of space. And the thing that

1340
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:45,440
Speaker 1: does that weaving, perhaps is quantum entanglement, Like maybe this

1341
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 1: bit of space is entangled with that bit of space,

1342
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 1: And it might just be that at the fundamental level,

1343
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 1: that entanglement is accomplished by wormholes. Like maybe the idea

1344
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 1: is keep a wormhole open by quantum entangling its edges.

1345
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: Maybe that's the way wormholes are. Or maybe all of

1346
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 1: the universe, every bit of space, is just like a

1347
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 1: bunch of wormholes connected together, every pixel wormholed together with

1348
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:09,240
Speaker 1: all of its neighboring pixels.

1349
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 3: Well, it's crazy, you're saying, Like instead of space being

1350
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 3: this giant blob of something, maybe it's just a whole

1351
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 3: bunch of little blobs that are pixel size. Which is

1352
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 3: the smallest unit of space, and they're all sort of

1353
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 3: a threat together by wormholes.

1354
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, otherwise they would all just be disconnected. And maybe

1355
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 1: the whole idea of space as this like thing you

1356
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:31,200
Speaker 1: can move through comes out of weaving space together into

1357
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 1: this fabric. And it might be that wormholes are the

1358
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,840
Speaker 1: things that weave it together, that connect various pieces of space,

1359
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: and so that if we try to build a wormhole

1360
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:41,960
Speaker 1: between like our space and some space somewhere in Alpha Centauri,

1361
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 1: it could be a very natural thing to do, because

1362
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 1: what we're doing is like just sort of like engineering

1363
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 1: the fundamental structure of space time itself.

1364
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:52,520
Speaker 3: Interesting. You just need like a special quantum needle exactly,

1365
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 3: and entangled.

1366
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:56,080
Speaker 1: Threats exactly, weaving singularities.

1367
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 3: So space might be all wormholes basically, right, like when

1368
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 3: I move from here to my house or here to

1369
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 3: the bathroom, actually sort of like weaving through tiny little

1370
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 3: wormholes all the time.

1371
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 1: It certainly could be all right, Well.

1372
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:08,720
Speaker 3: I guess these are all pretty exciting ideas, and it

1373
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:11,640
Speaker 3: makes me think that maybe it is possible to get

1374
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 3: to other parts of the universe using wormholes. It sounds

1375
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:17,040
Speaker 3: like it's theoretically possible and there are some pretty smart

1376
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 3: people thinking about how to make one and keep one

1377
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:19,880
Speaker 3: open exactly.

1378
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 1: It's a really fun area and I'm pretty sure that

1379
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 1: in a one hundred years people will look back at

1380
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 1: these ideas and think, oh, those were foolish, naive ideas.

1381
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 1: But these are the ideas along the path to figuring

1382
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 1: it out. You can't just go from here to a

1383
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 1: deep understanding of the universe. You got to somehow assemble

1384
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:37,680
Speaker 1: that understanding. You got to go step by step. And

1385
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:40,960
Speaker 1: so we're on step one of an unknown number of steps.

1386
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:43,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and all we need is three thousand light year

1387
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 3: wide hole using dark matter, which we don't understand.

1388
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, inside a refrigerator.

1389
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 3: All right, Well, thanks for joining us. We hope you

1390
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 3: enjoyed that. See you next time.

1391
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:05,920
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain

1392
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:09,920
Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts

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01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:14,640
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