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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Nol. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We are joined as always with our super producer,

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Speaker 1: Paul Mission Controlled deconds. Most importantly, you are you, You

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Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know. As we record today, Glaine Maxwell is

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Speaker 1: currently incarcerated and trying desperately to get out of to

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Speaker 1: get out of jail in time for the holidays. You

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Speaker 1: might recognize this name, folks. It's most associated with Jeffrey Steam,

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Speaker 1: the convicted child abuser who died under mysterious circumstances while

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Speaker 1: in prison. We did a multi part series on this

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Speaker 1: how it was a three four episodes. Yeah, we've done

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Speaker 1: several updates since that series too, So yeah, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot you can we even do like an update to

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Speaker 1: the update, or we added like an adendum or something

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Speaker 1: because there was some breaking news that day. Yes, that

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Speaker 1: is correct. Hotel room, if I'm not mistaken. We recorded

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Speaker 1: recorded one of the last bits of that update in

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Speaker 1: a hotel room as the as the story was developing.

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Speaker 1: And we're returning today for an update on Glenn Maxwell,

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Speaker 1: who was in the news a little bit but not

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Speaker 1: getting as much coverage. Hadn't been getting as much coverage

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Speaker 1: as Epstein for for a time. That changed recently for

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Speaker 1: some for some very odd reasons. But let's let's start

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Speaker 1: at the beginning with Glene. Here are the facts. Glenn

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Speaker 1: Maxwell was born in France on Christmas Day, December of

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Speaker 1: nineteen um as. She was the youngest child of media

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Speaker 1: magnate some might describe as disgraced media magnate Robert Maxwell Um.

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Speaker 1: He founded a publishing house UM that went on to

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Speaker 1: be quite successful called Pergamon Press. She was one of

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Speaker 1: nine children and she grew up in absolute opulence of

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Speaker 1: the highest order. Um. She lived in a mansion that

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Speaker 1: had a name, you know, and you know it's a

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Speaker 1: mansion if it has a name that's more like an

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Speaker 1: a state. And it had a great one, a very

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Speaker 1: British one, Headington Hill Hall. So it's a good name.

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Speaker 1: And Maxwell is also pretty interesting and cool name. It

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Speaker 1: always makes me think of that Beatles song, Maxwell's silver Hammer.

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Speaker 1: Hey there you go a lot like that. Uh that

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Speaker 1: Robert Maxwell's a character that could be an entire episode.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it should. Maybe eventually we'll we'll do that. But

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Speaker 1: let's just focus on Gilaine here for a bit. You know,

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Speaker 1: she grew up very in luxury, let's say, very privileged.

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Speaker 1: Eventually she attended Oxford University, and she kind of she

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Speaker 1: wasn't I wouldn't characterize it as being used. I would

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Speaker 1: say she was effectively utilized by her father to become

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Speaker 1: a socialite. As a socialite, as a person who makes connections,

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Speaker 1: who kind of goes in first and you know, connects

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Speaker 1: other people to the Maxwell family, think of socialite, you

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Speaker 1: think of people like Paris Hill, and you just sort

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Speaker 1: of live these frivolous lives. She was almost more groomed

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Speaker 1: to be like an operative, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Like it was very much. I think you were right

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Speaker 1: on when you first said it. I think she was

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Speaker 1: used at an early age and kind of groomed to

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Speaker 1: be this tool of her father's empire. And that could

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Speaker 1: be said for other siblings, other other members of the

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Speaker 1: Maxwell clan. I we we're going to be planting some

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Speaker 1: seeds about Sir Robert Maxwell and they will come to

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Speaker 1: fruition in this episode. Uh yeah, socialite is a group,

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Speaker 1: is an umbrella term that can mean a number of things.

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Speaker 1: Given that her father had a bedside manner that could

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Speaker 1: be best described as terrible, Uh, he needed someone like

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Speaker 1: this to be able to make those connections, to play

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Speaker 1: the games of the wealthy. Uh, and channel philanthropic endeavors

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Speaker 1: and you know, at times do what is essentially the

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Speaker 1: legal version of laundering money. So today, of course, Galaine

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Speaker 1: Maxwell is best known for her long running relationship with

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Speaker 1: the the disgrace financier and convicted child abuser, the late

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein. But there are still What I find interesting

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Speaker 1: is there's still questions about how Maxwell and Epstein met.

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Speaker 1: The Times reported that Maxwell and Epstein met in the

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Speaker 1: early nineteen nineties after she had had a difficult breakup

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Speaker 1: with Count John Franco Sigona Mazzoni, who like a lot

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Speaker 1: of like a lot of European aristocrats. Uh, took their

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Speaker 1: vast generational wealth and and channeled it into industries. This

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Speaker 1: is a hotel guy, so she had a rough breakup.

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Speaker 1: She's at this party in New York. She meets Jeffrey Epstein.

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Speaker 1: They hit it off, but other sources argue they met

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Speaker 1: before then, that they met in nineteen. There's a there's

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Speaker 1: a cool podcast about this called Broken Seeking Justice, and

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Speaker 1: in there they relay information from a convicted con artist,

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Speaker 1: a Ponzi scheme guy named Steve Hoffenburg, and he had

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Speaker 1: once upon a time worked with Epstein, and on that

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Speaker 1: show he says that Galaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein met

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Speaker 1: through her father, Robert max Well and Matt I love

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Speaker 1: your point there. He is best known as Robert Maxwell,

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Speaker 1: but that's not the name he was born with. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The the podcast, by the way, was unable to corroberate

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Speaker 1: Haffenburgh's claim. But then there are other sources that's say

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Speaker 1: a very similar thing. And one of these people was

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Speaker 1: a former staffer of Epstein's who says that Gillen Maxwell

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Speaker 1: was making them look at albums like photo albums and

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Speaker 1: just kind of going over, oh, here's this, here's this person,

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Speaker 1: and it was photos from her father's funeral. Apparently, when

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Speaker 1: when this stafford was just told, oh yeah, that's when

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Speaker 1: I met, uh, Jeffrey. It just we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: Ciga Hotels clan, you know, kind of connecting up there

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Speaker 1: with the Maxwell family. You have to know that if

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Speaker 1: you've ever heard of the Daily Mail or the The Mirror,

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Speaker 1: that's what that's what her family owned, which are all

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Speaker 1: kind of trash papers. If I'm not much, I mean

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Speaker 1: that they're sort of like considered lower on the journal

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Speaker 1: list of integrity totem pole let us say. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: and especially in the in the two thousands and stuff.

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Speaker 1: But remember we're talking about the eighties and nineties, like

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Speaker 1: as these papers are kind of first coming to become

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Speaker 1: a thing, and they were still I mean, Maxwell could

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Speaker 1: be described as a media magnate, but he was also

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Speaker 1: often described as a tabloid tycoon, like a yellow journalist

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Speaker 1: kind of type. Deal. Right, So however, Maxwell, Galain, Maxwell

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Speaker 1: and Epstein actually did meet. They soon became an item.

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Speaker 1: They were dating for some amount of time, and afterward

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Speaker 1: they remained to the public eye as friends, you know,

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Speaker 1: as associates. One of those relationships that ends amicably, no harm,

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Speaker 1: no foul. That's a that's a beautiful thing as anybody's

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Speaker 1: experience that can attest. If you want full details on

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Speaker 1: the extent of Epstein's proved in crimes and Galaine Maxwell's

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Speaker 1: alleged involvement then check out our multipart series on Epstein.

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Speaker 1: It is not appropriate for all audience members. It goes

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Speaker 1: very and it's a very in depth look at his origins,

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Speaker 1: what he did, his close calls, how he got caught,

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Speaker 1: and the questions remaining around us death. And I haven't

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Speaker 1: watched it yet, but i've been maybe because it's just,

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Speaker 1: you know, times are dark. I kind of want like

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Speaker 1: uplifting material. But there's a Netflix documentary that's supposed to

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Speaker 1: be quite good as well. Essentially, bottom line is that

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Speaker 1: Delaine Maxwell is currently accused of aiding and abetting multiple

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Speaker 1: acts of sexual abuse, grooming, trafficking, and more. This included

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Speaker 1: her scouting out victims of Epstein and his associates like

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Speaker 1: Prince Andrew Uh. This also included accusations of occasionally participating

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Speaker 1: in sexual acts with the victim herself, so actually get

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Speaker 1: getting her quote unquote hands dirty. And there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of alleged activity there that isn't necessarily, you know, identified

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Speaker 1: in any of the cases against her, but alleged activity

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Speaker 1: activity of her specifically recording a lot of these activities

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Speaker 1: rights right, which comes into play later because we do

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Speaker 1: know that Epstein obsessively recorded encounters, especially with especially encounters

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Speaker 1: that he had brokered. He and Galaine had brokered between

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Speaker 1: the victims and notable figures in the world of politics,

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Speaker 1: in the world of aristocracy, and then the world of business.

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Speaker 1: Robert Maxwell is one of these giants. He wasn't as

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Speaker 1: far as we know. He He was aware of Epstein

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Speaker 1: and had worked with him or interacted with him, and

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Speaker 1: he has some murky involvement, but he's not in this story.

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Speaker 1: The reason you don't see him too often in the

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Speaker 1: Epstein saga is because he died in nineteen one. In

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Speaker 1: about nineteen days after his death, someone took a photo

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Speaker 1: at the Plaza Hotel during a memorial event for this guy.

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Speaker 1: And this photo shows Glenn Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein mid conversation,

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Speaker 1: and they look like they're having a pleasant time. Just remember, well,

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Speaker 1: we'll get back to Robert in a second. We're just

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Speaker 1: planting the seeds. So back to the crimes. Epstein quick

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Speaker 1: timeline arrested July six. Unlike the previous rest this one sticks.

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Speaker 1: He goes on to die in jail on August before

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Speaker 1: he reaches trial. Glenn Maxwell is arrested in New Hampshire

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Speaker 1: on July two, Uh, in a house that she bought

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Speaker 1: with cash. Uh, it's a million dollar house. It makes

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Speaker 1: me think of our foreign investment episode. She was arrest

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Speaker 1: on multiple charges related to this abuse of young women

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Speaker 1: and girls by Epstein. Her trial has been set for

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Speaker 1: July twelve one. Like everything else, that's probably pandemic pending,

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Speaker 1: and as we are recording this episode, she currently sits

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Speaker 1: in prison. Her bail was denied because she has a

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Speaker 1: lot of money and access to planes. She also, by

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Speaker 1: the way, has a helicopter pilot's license. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if it's still valid today, but at one point she

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Speaker 1: got a helicopter pilot's license and was gifted a helicopter

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Speaker 1: by Epstein. Her father actually is also just to peek

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Speaker 1: into this guy, her father is was actually a big

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Speaker 1: fan of helicopters too. He owned a He had a

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Speaker 1: helicopter strip on top of one of his buildings almost

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Speaker 1: entirely so he could use it to fly over Rupert

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Speaker 1: Murdoch's office on his way to and from things. Because

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Speaker 1: Rupert Murdoch did not have a helicopter, you think he

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Speaker 1: liked with Hakka Lugi of the helicopter like on to

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Speaker 1: the top of the building. Just I'm sure he was.

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Speaker 1: He was a petty dude. Yeah. He was also known

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Speaker 1: for urinating off the top of his office building and

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Speaker 1: on the side of his boat, off the side of

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Speaker 1: his boat. But at least he was the guys you

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Speaker 1: can't call it an excuse me, sure, but his at

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Speaker 1: least he was wearing clothes when he was urinating off

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Speaker 1: the building. That's not the case with the ship. No.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to add just one little detail that I

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Speaker 1: hadn't heard before. But I was watching like an old

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Speaker 1: sixteen minutes not old, like you know, from when the

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Speaker 1: Epstein case kind of first really heat it up, and

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Speaker 1: it was talking about Glen Maxwell and from the perspective

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Speaker 1: of this young former art student at the New York

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Speaker 1: Art Institute or I'm sorry, the New York New York

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Speaker 1: Academy of Art and Epstein apparently and and Maxwell were

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Speaker 1: benefactors of her. His name was Maria Farmer, and like

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Speaker 1: they really liked her paintings and bought some of her

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Speaker 1: first work, and then um at Seene hired her to

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Speaker 1: kind of be his art buyer, like for his mansion,

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Speaker 1: to like you know, like outfit his home with like,

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Speaker 1: you know, good art tasteful art because he liked her taste.

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Speaker 1: But she would ride around with them all the time,

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Speaker 1: and uh, we spent a lot of time with Maxwell personally.

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Speaker 1: She talks about a story in this U sixty Minutes

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Speaker 1: where Maxwell would very frantically at the end of the

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Speaker 1: day say, oh, gosh, I've got to go find the

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Speaker 1: new Biles. I have to go get the new Biles.

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Speaker 1: And She's like, I don't know what that means. And

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Speaker 1: she realized that she would go to just like run

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Speaker 1: out of the car, go to like parks or like

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Speaker 1: when schools were letting out, and she would see her

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Speaker 1: just write down her phone number and give it to

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Speaker 1: these young girls. Some of them, she said that had

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Speaker 1: braces that were like you know that young and then

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Speaker 1: they turn up to the mansion and they just say, oh,

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Speaker 1: they're gonna be models, you know for what. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what you need models for if you're a financier,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, financial models. So that's a common thing. You know,

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Speaker 1: You're You're right though, that that sixty minutes is worth

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Speaker 1: is worth a watch. You can also hear a couple

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Speaker 1: of audio interviews I think with the same person, same victim,

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Speaker 1: So it appears that now. Currently, it appears that Galaine

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Speaker 1: Maxwell also has another close romantic relationship a tech CEO

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Speaker 1: and former Coast Guard officer named Scott Borgerson. They met

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Speaker 1: some time ago before the arrest, and they interacted also

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Speaker 1: through an obscure organization Maxwell founded called the Terra mar

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Speaker 1: Projects Like Earth Sea Project, and they appeared to be

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Speaker 1: in a relationship, although Borginson denied it for a while.

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Speaker 1: They were living together in Manchester by the Sea after

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Speaker 1: Maxwell sold er town home on the Upper East Side

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Speaker 1: in that's the same year she struck several confidential settlements

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Speaker 1: in civil court with women who said they were exploited

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Speaker 1: by Epstein. But Parkinson is interesting, Okay, So he he's

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Speaker 1: not he's not this landed gentry or he's not someone

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Speaker 1: who inherited a bunch of money. He comes from rural Missouri.

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Speaker 1: He actually did earn his way in the world, and

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Speaker 1: so he's somewhat anomalous in a lot of these upper

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Speaker 1: echelon circles. He also is a bit of red meat

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Speaker 1: for the more conspiracy minded of us. He also worked

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Speaker 1: for the Council on Foreign Relations from two thousand seven

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Speaker 1: two thousand eight. He was Fellow in residence and then two,

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Speaker 1: and then he transferred and became visiting fellow where Ocean's

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Speaker 1: governance with the organization from O eight to It's kind

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Speaker 1: of interesting, like I would maybe you kind of characterize

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Speaker 1: someone like this is new money, right because all of

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Speaker 1: these like you know, landed gentries, as you say, then

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Speaker 1: the generational money. They often look down on folks like that,

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Speaker 1: which is ironic considering it typically means that someone actually

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Speaker 1: bootstrapped themselves from nothing to like being a success as

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Speaker 1: opposed to it's kind of inheriting and like you know,

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Speaker 1: parlaying there you know, fortunately were born with into more fortune. Um.

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Speaker 1: It almost is interesting that that's useless also a term

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Speaker 1: of abuse, so it is interesting that he would have

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Speaker 1: found his way into the inner circle with someone like

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Speaker 1: Maxwell in the CFR and then at this, at one

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Speaker 1: of these hearings post to rest, it's very weird, uh,

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Speaker 1: prosecutors drop a bombshell because they say that Maxwell is

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Speaker 1: in fact secretly married, but they do not disclose the

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Speaker 1: identity of her spouse. It's just not Epstein. At some

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Speaker 1: point post relationship with Epstein, she got married and investigators

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Speaker 1: weren't able to find any, uh, any information about this

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Speaker 1: on publicly available, widely available databases. But that could mean

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Speaker 1: that they married in a foreign country or something. There

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Speaker 1: are a couple of different ways that could happen and

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Speaker 1: still be legal. But now that spouse appears to be

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Speaker 1: Scott Borgenson. This has not been solidly proven, but it

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Speaker 1: adds some wrinkles to an already twisting story. There's a

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Speaker 1: great New York Times article about this that quotes a

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Speaker 1: defense lawyer, Jeffrey Chabrow, and he he says something very interesting,

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Speaker 1: and I don't want to be too cynical about this,

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Speaker 1: but he raises a good point when he says, there

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Speaker 1: are reasons that people might get married other than love,

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Speaker 1: especially if they're facing a criminal indictment. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: one of them is is kind of obvious if you've

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Speaker 1: watched any crime procedural on television that whole like, uh,

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Speaker 1: you can't testify against me if if you're my spouse. Thing.

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Speaker 1: But the big one, and the one that makes a

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Speaker 1: lot of sense here, I think, is the concept that

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Speaker 1: being married can help you move some money around a

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Speaker 1: lot easier. And we know, at least at the reports,

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Speaker 1: that Gillane Maxwell is worth around twenty million. That's what

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Speaker 1: she kind of has or had I guess at one

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Speaker 1: point very recently, But it would seem that the circles

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Speaker 1: in which she runs her background, her interactions with Epstein,

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Speaker 1: the amount of money that he had in his Epstein

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Speaker 1: estate currently has it feels like maybe there is or

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Speaker 1: was more money to be moved around. Curious or and

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Speaker 1: curious er. Yeah, and in the latest news, So right now,

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Speaker 1: just to be completely transparent, we're recording this on December.

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Speaker 1: We're preparing for this episode on December ten. Yesterday, reports

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Speaker 1: emerged that Maxwell Borgenson and some of Maxwell's siblings are

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Speaker 1: teaming up to propose a somewhere between a twenty eight

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Speaker 1: point five million and thirty million dollar bail package. That's

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Speaker 1: million straight from Scott, the other five ish million from

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Speaker 1: her siblings, and it's an attempt to free Maxwell before

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Speaker 1: the holidays. They're trying to get her out of the

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Speaker 1: Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, uh and they they say

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Speaker 1: that she'll relinquish her multiple passports, she'll go to house arrest,

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Speaker 1: she'll get electronic monitoring. She has a French passport that's

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Speaker 1: one of the ones she has, and French authorities have

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Speaker 1: brought a case against her there as well, the team

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Speaker 1: that is trying to get her out, the lawyer's Borkins

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Speaker 1: and the siblings, all the plan operation get Galaine out.

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Speaker 1: We're not even we're not even at the crazy part yet.

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Speaker 1: To get there, we have we have to like look

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Speaker 1: at some speculation. Can we just say, can we just say,

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Speaker 1: maybe they spend thirty million dollars to get her out,

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Speaker 1: just to have like dinner. Yeah, but but like separated

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Speaker 1: by six ft wearing masksous to me? Well, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: if you have all right, I'm gonna say it. Wealthy

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Speaker 1: people are going to get the vaccines first, Oh, no question.

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Speaker 1: So I think that they may already be. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't want to I don't want

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Speaker 1: to be that person. But statistically they're much more likely

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Speaker 1: to enjoy post pandemic freedoms faster, more quickly. So to

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Speaker 1: get to the actual crazy part of this, we have

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Speaker 1: to look at some of the speculation, some of the concerns,

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Speaker 1: as some of the rumors that have been spreading as

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Speaker 1: Galline Maxwell has been incarcerated. First, number one, let's point

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Speaker 1: out the biggest badger in the bag. People are worried

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Speaker 1: about the possibility that she will be quote Epstein's Does

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Speaker 1: that mean as though she would appear to commit suicide

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Speaker 1: while being held in prison, although perhaps it was not suicide.

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Speaker 1: That's that's the speculation, and that you know, they're we

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Speaker 1: can't prove right now on this podcast, and I don't

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Speaker 1: think there's anyone out there right now that can come

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Speaker 1: on a podcast since and prove to you for sure

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Speaker 1: that Jeffrey Epstein did not commit suicide. But as we've

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Speaker 1: talked about on numerous episodes on this show, Jeffrey Epstein's

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Speaker 1: death feels ridiculously fishy. I mean, the whole like the

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Speaker 1: guards fell asleep story, I mean, that's that's just come

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Speaker 1: on busted cameras, the highwoid bone, the timeline, there are

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Speaker 1: issues with it. Even if you consider yourself convinced that

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Speaker 1: he took his own life and a series of ridiculously

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Speaker 1: incompetent actions allowed him to do so successfully, there's still

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Speaker 1: a lot of questions. And it's not just you know,

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Speaker 1: people in the Internet or people on podcasts speculating about this.

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Speaker 1: There are also investigative journalists, numerous citizen observers, legal groups,

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Speaker 1: and Epstein's own lawyers say that they don't believe the

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Speaker 1: official story, so naturally similar concerns are going to arise

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Speaker 1: regarding Maxwell's safety. But then that from that, Okay, from

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Speaker 1: that piece, we build another one. This there's a I'm

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Speaker 1: doing a bit of a conspiratorial Bob Ross thing, right.

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Speaker 1: So our first brush stroke is the circumstances of death.

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Speaker 1: Our second brushstroke is concerns about, Okay, if Jeffrey Epstein

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Speaker 1: was murdered, who was behind it? There are concerns that

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Speaker 1: there might be some person or some organization behind his murder,

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Speaker 1: and then therefore they would be the most likely culprit

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Speaker 1: were anything untoward to happen to Glai Maxwell. It was

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Speaker 1: my six. I think it was in my six. Yes,

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Speaker 1: Prince Andrew m I six. That's Not'm just I'm joking there, dude,

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Speaker 1: I mean to me, it's almost like you could take

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Speaker 1: your pick. There are probably several world governments that would

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Speaker 1: have had reasons to bump that guy off with his

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Speaker 1: international as his clientele was in terms of the investments.

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Speaker 1: God knows, that was probably a lot of crooked stuff

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Speaker 1: going on there, not to mention all the people that

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Speaker 1: were on his plane and on his island complicit that

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Speaker 1: we don't even maybe know about you know, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I do want to say that, Prince Andrew, if you're listening,

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Speaker 1: I think no sweat would be really cool street dame

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Speaker 1: for you back then. I didn't sweat back then. Explain

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Speaker 1: the origin of that to me, Ben, real quick. I

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Speaker 1: heard you missed at the top of the show. I

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Speaker 1: don't think i've heard that one. He was literally saying,

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Speaker 1: I don't sweat, so that you couldn't have my DNA

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Speaker 1: or something or what what's he saying? So in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: he was trying to prove that he did not assault

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Speaker 1: a seventeen year old in the nineteen nineties, and part

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Speaker 1: of his explanation for that was that the victim said

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Speaker 1: that she danced with the Prince and you Prince Andrew

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Speaker 1: was sweating profusely and then so much so that she

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Speaker 1: had to go have a bath later because she was

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Speaker 1: sodden from it. And then he said, quote, there's a

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Speaker 1: slight problem with the sweating because I have a peculiar

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Speaker 1: medical condition, which is that I don't sweat, or I

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Speaker 1: didn't sweat at the time, and that was was it. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I I didn't sweat at the time. So does he

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Speaker 1: just like hang his head out the window with his

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Speaker 1: tongue out like a dog like. Is that how he

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Speaker 1: releases didn't go he didn't go into it. I think

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Speaker 1: it's a good street name. And in that same interview,

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Speaker 1: the interviewer says to Prince Andrew, just for the record,

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Speaker 1: you've been on his private plane. Yes, you've been to

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Speaker 1: stay on his private island. You've stayed on his homeowned

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Speaker 1: palm beach. Sure, you've visited Laine Maxwell's house in Belgrade.

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Speaker 1: Here in London. I mean, yeah, what are you getting at?

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Speaker 1: I mean, come on, he yes, for for the record,

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Speaker 1: on our our show, He's just says yes to every

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Speaker 1: one of those questions. But I don't really know why

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Speaker 1: we're saying this, mostly just because that concept that, oh,

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Speaker 1: it couldn't have been me, because of the whole sweat thing.

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Speaker 1: When you compare that to the fact that he was

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Speaker 1: in all of those places where the alleged sexual abuse

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Speaker 1: was occurring, it just you can tell it feels off. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So that's that's where we get to the idea, the

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Speaker 1: concern of conspiracy, collusion, some sort of hidden hand at

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Speaker 1: play behind this. Again, if these were homicide, if this

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Speaker 1: were a homicide, because Epstein had tons of potential enemies,

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Speaker 1: relatives of his victims, which were sadly, probably the least

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Speaker 1: threatening because they will tend to have the smallest amount

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Speaker 1: of state level influence and ungodly amounts of money. So

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Speaker 1: he also had those powerful associates, including a course Prince Andrew,

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Speaker 1: Prince Prince No Sweat Andrew, and they may have wanted

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Speaker 1: to silence him before he revealed any damning information about

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Speaker 1: their own involvement in his sex ring. They're also possible

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Speaker 1: intelligence organizations using Epstein as a part of an elaborate

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Speaker 1: honey trap operation to secure leverage over political industrial elites. Again,

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Speaker 1: that's not proven, but I think that's the first place

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Speaker 1: a lot of our minds went post post death at

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Speaker 1: this point. Each of these groups were just described could

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Speaker 1: have a motive if again Epstein was murdered. But how

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Speaker 1: could we if that's the case, How could we figure

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Speaker 1: out the most likely culprit? For some the answer can

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Speaker 1: be found by approaching this through an entirely different angle

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Speaker 1: and asking ourselves not who killed Jeffrey Epstein, but asking

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Speaker 1: ourselves who killed Roger Maxwell? What are we talking about?

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Speaker 1: We'll tell you after a word from our sponsor. Here's

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Speaker 1: where it gets crazy. So Lene's father, Robert Maxwell, who

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Speaker 1: we talked about a little bit at the top of

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Speaker 1: this show. He's a media tycoon. He went missing on

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Speaker 1: November five, nineteen one. He was sixty eight years old.

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Speaker 1: He was last seen on his yacht named the Lady

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Speaker 1: Gallain at four am local time where he was and

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Speaker 1: after a bit of searching and attempts to locate him,

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Speaker 1: his body was found nude in the Atlantic Ocean, and

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Speaker 1: this was just off of the Canary Islands where his

428
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 1: yacht was found in his body was discovered. The official

429
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: conclusion from an inquest held in December found that his

430
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: death was the result of a heart attack in conjunction

431
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: with accidental drowning. Essentially, that he was nude urinating off

432
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: the side of the vessel as he often did there.

433
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: It is from yeah, is noted by several It's not conjectured,

434
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: it's noted by several people throughout his life. Uh, And

435
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: that while he was in this act he fell overboard,

436
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: whether it was from staggering from the heart attack or

437
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: whether he slipped the railing. Here is wire on this yacht.

438
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: And he's a he's a pretty large man. He's pretty

439
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: top heavy, so gravity is working against him if he tilts,

440
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: you know, too far forward. But here's the thing. Three

441
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: pathologists were unable to agree on the cause of death.

442
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: You'll also see that Maxwell did not have serious heart conditions.

443
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: He also he didn't seem to have serious lung conditions,

444
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: though he did have earlier long operations. They're just saying

445
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: it's it's not as if there were a ticking cardiac

446
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: time bomb. So murder was ruled out by the judge.

447
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: Suicide was also kind of taken off the board. One

448
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: of his sons also said, you know, I don't think

449
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: my old and would take his own life. It wasn't

450
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: in his makeup or his mentality, and it was his yacht,

451
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: and he frequently urinated off the side um And if

452
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: through toxicology reports they didn't find that he was grossly intoxicated, drunk,

453
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: or you know, on some other substance that would cause

454
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: him to lose his footing easily, I don't know. If

455
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: it just feels weird. It feels very weird, and they

456
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: proceed with the funeral. His funeral is a huge event.

457
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: We mentioned that memorial service in New York right at

458
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: the Plaza Hotel, but his actual funeral takes place in Israel.

459
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: He's uh, the funeral is attended by the Prime Minister,

460
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: by the President, by at least six former and currently

461
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: serving heads of Israeli intelligence and then politicians from across

462
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: the domestic political spectrum. They're including the opposition party. He's

463
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: buried on the amount of olives in Jerusalem. This is

464
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: this is a huge affair, And of course, yes, it

465
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: makes sense that it would be a huge affair because

466
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: of his stature in the media industry. However, it is

467
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: the guest list is unusual. Like Rupert Murdoch for instance,

468
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: might not might have a ton of celebrities at a funeral.

469
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: Um might have some politicians he was friends with, But

470
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: would he have the current president, would he have prime ministers?

471
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: Would he have like the head of the inn s

472
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: A or the FBI or the CIA there as well?

473
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: Just to make sure he's in the grave, you know, yeah,

474
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: I mean that's what it is, just to ensure to

475
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: do the whole wake thing and just watch him for

476
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: a while and then all right, all right, we'll let

477
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: him go. But but you're right that and we we

478
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: won't know until until Murdoch goes what happens with with

479
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: his funeral. But and I'm not wishing death on anyone,

480
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: no no, no, no, no no, it's just it is

481
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: the intelligence thing is what makes me wonder, not necessarily

482
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: the heads of state, it's the intelligence side. Just I

483
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: want to say too, there's a lot of parallels here

484
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: between the Epstein death and this death in that you know,

485
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: Epstein also didn't strike anybody that knew him as the

486
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: type that would have had the wherewithal to kill himself

487
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: under any circumstances. You know, it takes a certain amount

488
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: of what's the word bravado and kind of like any

489
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: interview here with Epstein, he's always talking about how he

490
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: knows himself. He uses the fact that he has a

491
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: secret island to explore all of the things that it

492
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: means to be me. And you know, he talks like

493
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: someone with a lot of with very self possessed, uh

494
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,479
Speaker 1: that I don't really buy would have done that. And

495
00:31:55,520 --> 00:32:01,719
Speaker 1: this Maxwell seems to have a very similar character. Oh sure, Yeah,

496
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: here's here's the thing. So there are all these pieces

497
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: that we have to add to our painting. Here years later,

498
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,959
Speaker 1: years after his death, after the official conclusions, et cetera.

499
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, there's this production crew. They're

500
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: researching a biopic for BBC and it's on Maxwell. It's

501
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: called an a Burst of Creativity Maxwell, and they found

502
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: a suitcase in the possession of one of his security guys.

503
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: This suitcase contained a bunch of tapes because in the

504
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: time leading up to his death, he had become paranoid

505
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: and he had started wiring the offices illegally of his

506
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: employees and various associates the same way that like Nixon,

507
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: obsessively recorded everything. So that's a strong indication that he

508
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: appeared to believe trouble was on the horizon. But why Yeah, right,

509
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: good question, Matt. That brings us to his other two careers.

510
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: I'd like to call them, because you see an addition

511
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: to being a media mogul. It turns out that Maxwell

512
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: had not one, but two other career pursuits. First, he

513
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: was making a living as a thief. After his death,

514
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: when all this stuff came to light, everybody changed their

515
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: tune about Robert Maxwell. It was only a couple of

516
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: months too after he died where a bunch of banks,

517
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: several banks came forward and they were frantically calling on

518
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: some loans that have been taken out, and one of

519
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: them had to do with the pension for the companies

520
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: that he had started that he was running. You see,

521
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: to come to light that Maxwell had been using, or

522
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 1: had used already hundreds of millions of pounds from his

523
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: various companies pension funds to shore up shares of the

524
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: Mirror Group in an attempt to save the organization for bankruptcy.

525
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: There were articles in papers just before his death that

526
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 1: were calling him the man that saved the Mirror, the

527
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: guy that had somehow come up with all this money

528
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 1: too to prop it up, to prop up the Mirror

529
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: Group and to make it okay for all the employees.

530
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: But what he'd actually been doing is stealing their pensions

531
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: four four hundred and sixty million pounds worth. Yeah, and

532
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 1: I mean, let's the think about it. Like in the

533
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: in the UK specially, senior citizens are often referred to

534
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: as pensioners because that's how they live when they're older

535
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 1: and can't work anymore. Um So he's essentially robbing from

536
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 1: little old men and women, uh to pay back his loans. Right, However,

537
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: the money moved, it was no longer moving in his favor,

538
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: which just let me once again shout out the fantas

539
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: pastic graphic novel series The Black Monday Murders. If you

540
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: haven't read it yet, go read it. Uh. It's by

541
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 1: an author named Jonathan Hickman. I think the artist's name

542
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: is Tim Coker. But if you are one of if

543
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 1: you are Hickman and you're listening to this podcast, put out,

544
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 1: please man, put out volume nine. I'll leave me hanging.

545
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 1: Have you dropped this one on the podcast before? Ben?

546
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: I can't remember past the fan of it sounds great?

547
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: Oh god, it's I don't even want to give you

548
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: the rough description. I'll tell you off air really clearly.

549
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 1: Another quick recommendation, UM, don't want to spoil anything, but

550
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: there's this incredible new show that just hit Amazon Prime.

551
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: I think you can watched the first five episodes for free,

552
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: but it's on a m C Plus and it's called

553
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: The Gangs of London and it's like about this organized

554
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: crime syndicate in London. UM that is all revolves around

555
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: a front facing lee legitimate uh real estate mogul kind

556
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: of situation, and there's a lot of parallels with these

557
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: types of things. UM in that show in terms of

558
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: like wandering money and uh, intrigue and you know, just

559
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: like kind of faction warring factions and stuff. And it

560
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: goes to show you how at the end of the day,

561
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 1: like business is war and there are no rules, uh

562
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: you know, because people you get to a certain point

563
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 1: where you just want more and more and more, and

564
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 1: being denied that you'll do anything that you have to

565
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: to keep what you have and to get more. It

566
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: makes me think about Maxwell flying over Murdoch's tower, you know,

567
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: in his helicopter, well, knowing that he's just taking that

568
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: money and pull it into his helicopter. Is actually so

569
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,919
Speaker 1: this is true, but it gets away from it gets

570
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: away from Maxwell because you know, you you find great

571
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: fortune and you find great danger when you were functioning

572
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: at these heights. Right. So the bottom line is this,

573
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: there's there's a bunch of back and forth. It turns

574
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: out that the way the way the financial catastrophe is

575
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 1: handled means that his pension theft is partially repaid from

576
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: public funds, from UK taxpayer money, and the pensioners get

577
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 1: eventually works out they get around half of what they

578
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: were supposed to, which can absolutely wreck your life in retirement.

579
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: Is that a bailout? Ben? Is that what that would

580
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 1: be called? Like literally the government stepping in and giving

581
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 1: taxpayer money to bail out a corrupt businessperson who stole

582
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 1: from pensioners. It kind of is, Uh, there's this public

583
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: private cooperation that occurs. The pension funds get replenished with

584
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: money from two banks Scoldben Sachs, Shearson Lehman and the

585
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: British government, and it gets supported by a surplus taken

586
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: by the government of like a hundred million pounds. So

587
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: so that means that, yeah, the British taxpayers paid for

588
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,919
Speaker 1: part of this guy's crimes, but that's still not enough

589
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: to save the company or even save all the entirety

590
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: of the pensions. So the Maxwell Companies filed for bankruptcy

591
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: in so this is all for nothing. Essentially, it was

592
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: to staunch the wounds. Didn't save the company, which was

593
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: Maxwell's aim, but it did at least give those people

594
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: some of their pension back. Uh. Well, I just mean

595
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: the robbing, like, like the stealing of the pension funds

596
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: was for not because it didn't even ultimately accomplish the

597
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: goal that he was hoping, which is to keep the

598
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: company from filing for bankruptcy. Yeah, yeah, and you know

599
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 1: he's dead when the company files for bankruptcy has passed

600
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: on h One of his sons, Kevin Maxwell, is later

601
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 1: declared bankrupt with debts to the tune of four hundred

602
00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: million pounds. This makes him, This gives him the dubious

603
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: distinction of being the most bankrupt person in the United Kingdom.

604
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: So that's great heights and great lows. Uh. They he

605
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: and another sibling, Ian and two other former directors went

606
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: on trial in for conspiracy to defraud, but they were

607
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,919
Speaker 1: unanimously acquitted by a jury of their peers. So that's

608
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 1: that's his other career. That's Robert Maxwell's other career. It's

609
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 1: proven it was a thief, regardless of his motivations. He

610
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: has his second career. It's a career that. Yeah, it's

611
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: a career that many of our astute fellow listeners. I

612
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: knew we were going to get to and we'll bring

613
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 1: this back to Gallaine in a second, but we need

614
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: to we need to explore this because not enough people

615
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: talk about it. His second career was as a spy.

616
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: I am ready at this point to say, you know,

617
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 1: I am ready to say that I personally believe this

618
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: is true. In my opinion, I feel that as well.

619
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: I'm I'm not gonna say it out loud like that yet,

620
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: but listen to this. Okay, Now it feels it. There's

621
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: a ring of truth to it, to be sure. So

622
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: back to this funeral. There's a line from the eulogy

623
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 1: that stuck out to multiple observers and I'm paraphrasing here,

624
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 1: but it's this. Nobody will ever know the extent to

625
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: which Maxwell helped Israel. This could be, This could be

626
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: a couple of things. First, people say very nice things

627
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: about their loved ones at eulogies. That's what eulogies are for. Uh. Secondly, yeah,

628
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:48,800
Speaker 1: Robert Maxwell is commonly regarded as a hero in Israel.

629
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: He provided immense amounts of funding for various industries. He

630
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: was instrumental maintaining lines of communication between Soviet countries and

631
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 1: Israel during the Cold War era. There's a ton of

632
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: stuff there. But the big question is was he just

633
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: a really wealthy guy using his immense wealth to help

634
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: out a nation that he saw as a homeland or

635
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,479
Speaker 1: was there something different? Because multiple journalists, including respectable ones

636
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 1: like Seaboard Hirsch, have basically come out and said this

637
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: guy is Massa. Yeah, and and I mean and just

638
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 1: really quickly, like just look at who attended his memorial service.

639
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,839
Speaker 1: You had Israeli Prime Minister Eat sak Shamir at the time,

640
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: Israeli President Kim Herzog, and a source quoted as saying

641
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 1: no less than six serving and former heads of Israeli intelligence,

642
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: and many dignitaries and politicians, both government and opposition. And uh,

643
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: there's some interesting stuff that was reported back in there

644
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: were several lits that had published reports that the FBI

645
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,240
Speaker 1: was a bit afraid that Maxwell was some kind of spy.

646
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: They though, I thought he was a Soviet spy, and

647
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: they thought he was trying to essentially use his publishing

648
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: empire to send intelligence I guess, to breach the Iron

649
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,399
Speaker 1: Curtain through his publications if that, if that makes sense,

650
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: to go pass through it. And uh, you know, there

651
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: was an investigation and eventually they did close it, and

652
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 1: I think that was in nineteen fifty seven, was way back,

653
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 1: but the suspicions remained in both the United States and

654
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,439
Speaker 1: the United Kingdom's governments. Also do want to point out,

655
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,879
Speaker 1: you know, intelligence agencies like to portray themselves as domestically

656
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 1: in step with one another, but intelligence agencies have shut

657
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: down each other's investigations before. They're not they're not always

658
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 1: on the same team. And I can tell you a

659
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 1: little bit about what the FBI suspicions were like in

660
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 1: the in the fifties. There they were. They were concerned

661
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: that Maxwell was taking scientific journals and research and then

662
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: using his publishing empire as an avenue to translate those

663
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: articles into Russian and then communicate them to Soviet forces.

664
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: So this could be seen as uh, this could be

665
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: seen as conveying privileged information. That was their main concern,

666
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,399
Speaker 1: that he might be helping them get a technological leap

667
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 1: frog on the US, which makes sense. It would be

668
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 1: really to use a publication for that, right, because that

669
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: that would be more of a slided under a door

670
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: somewhere or right right. So, I mean that's probably part

671
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: of why they eventually closed out their investigation. As he

672
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: said they were, there were still reservations, you know what

673
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,879
Speaker 1: I mean. This was not an Anthony Bourdaine no reservation situation.

674
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 1: Multiple people extra I know, they're not all gonna work.

675
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: We're we're live. Multiple people who uh were familiar with

676
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: this case and with this is this figure in the

677
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,240
Speaker 1: US and across the pond, the UK were like, okay, sure,

678
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 1: maybe not that one, but this guy is up to something.

679
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: And it turned out maybe they knew he was up

680
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: to something because they were also hiring him to do

681
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: other stuff. It's it's weird because he's not just the

682
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: spy for one country, right, this is true. There were

683
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: rumors swirling around that he was a spy for several

684
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,240
Speaker 1: different countries at the same time, the USSR, Israel, and

685
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 1: the UK. UM. He was accused of having ties to

686
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: the massad abduction of Mordecai the new new who was

687
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,720
Speaker 1: a person who kind of let slip some secrets about

688
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,839
Speaker 1: Israel's secret nuclear program. UM, and he is uh has

689
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: been kind of isolated to the country's being held there,

690
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: unable to leave to this very day. Um. He also

691
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: alleged ties to the Promise affair p R O M.

692
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: I s oh yeah, yeah, and that's uh, largely because

693
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: the FBI withdrew his file from public view. And um, Matt,

694
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 1: you want to tell us a little bit more about

695
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: the Promise affair. Well, I just can't believe. I can't

696
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: believe that he's got both of those of a new

697
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: new and promise software in his background, potentially because the

698
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: shadow of Casilero, right man, dude, Yeah, it's feeling like

699
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: an uber conspiracy here with Maxwell. WHOA. Okay, the promise

700
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 1: promised to Buckle was something we've done in a video

701
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 1: on I believe we've talked about it. Yeah, we we

702
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: talked about it on an episode fairly recently. No way,

703
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: do we just do the Casallero story and not fully

704
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: go into promise. Yes, Oh lord, you guys are in

705
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: for a treat when we do that episode. Um, it's

706
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: it's a maybe you could characterize it as a soft

707
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: wear a battle between Uncle Sam a couple other countries

708
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 1: and this thing called in slaw, but that that's how

709
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: I say it, in Slaw In's law. And it's essentially

710
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 1: this weird thing where this company alleges that the government

711
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: stole their software, or at least the underlying operation of

712
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: their software, and then used it to conduct intelligence. Uh.

713
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: And it's really creepy stuff. And this guy, this journalist,

714
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 1: Danny Cassolero, may have lost his life due to finding

715
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: out about it. And this thing called the octopus that

716
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: he called the octopus. Yeah, and the rabbit hole potential

717
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: here is profound. So this this thing that started happening

718
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: where people were digging into questions about Maxwell's involvement in this,

719
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: and as they were digging into it, they noticed that

720
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: the FBI started classifying parts of their UH parts of

721
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 1: their reporting to him. But we know what those formerly

722
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 1: unclassified materials said. They said that Maxwell accessed an n

723
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: ESSA database with info on how to tap government databases

724
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: around the world, and he got in trouble for that,

725
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 1: where he got a lot of heat for that, which

726
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: is weird because it's exactly what US and Israeli intelligence

727
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,879
Speaker 1: are accused of modifying the problems software to do. They're

728
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: also accused of stealing it from in slaw. So this

729
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: led some conspiracy theorists to claim that instead of slipping

730
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: off his boat while peeing, Massad had itself killed Maxwell

731
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 1: because Israel had refused to bail out his companies, and

732
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 1: he threatened to retaliate by saying, look, I know where

733
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: the skeletons are and I will shine a light on

734
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: and that and that tracks I would say, given his

735
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: willingness to steal from pension funds, I mean, he seemed

736
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: like he was definitely desperate and was going to go

737
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 1: to whatever means necessary to you know, stay solvent. Probably

738
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 1: not particularly smart, you know, gamble to go up against

739
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: Massad knowing what we know about them and how you know,

740
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: hardcore they are. Um, but this tracks to me. I

741
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 1: don't know how you guys feel. Well, it's an interesting thing,

742
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: like m if you game it out and you just

743
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 1: imagine him on his yacht feeling like, you know, he's

744
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: pretty isolated out there in the water, both in a

745
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: good and a bad way, and then I don't know, God,

746
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: this is amazing. Thank you Ben for making that connection.

747
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:37,240
Speaker 1: I don't know how I missed that connection with Robert Maxwell. WHOA,

748
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: we don't, I mean, we still don't. That's say, hey,

749
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 1: we didn't prove anything, you know. I know, I know,

750
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: but just but again, like in in this world of

751
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: of conspiracy, they're there all these webs, right, and I

752
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: just didn't realize that there was a connection there whatsoever.

753
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: It's nuts, right, It's it's nuts. So let's pause for

754
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 1: a moment, and when we return, if we return, we

755
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 1: are going to start tracing this breadcrumb trail back and

756
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 1: we'll get to Galaine at the end. We're back, all right. So,

757
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 1: as we said there, let's talk about the relationship between

758
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: Robert Maxwell Jeffrey Epstein. There are multiple sources claiming Maxwell

759
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:28,280
Speaker 1: somehow gave Epstein his start in business and finance, whether

760
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 1: that's through connecting him with people who could help him,

761
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: or whether that's through giving him money and saying, okay,

762
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: off to the stock market with you, my boy, or whatever.

763
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 1: And so given the long standing, to a degree credible

764
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 1: questions about the two men's possible involvement with intelligence activities,

765
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 1: it's tempting and it's easy to trace this sort of

766
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 1: invisible line, you know, like you just did bat connecting

767
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 1: these guys. What was the purpose of their interaction? This

768
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 1: brings us to what I can only call the big

769
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: what if because we have to go through so many

770
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 1: what ifs to get here. But okay, at first, what

771
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 1: if Epstein was murdered? What if Maxwell was also murdered?

772
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: If those two things were true, could the same organization

773
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 1: have been responsible for both homicides? Three? Big what's there?

774
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: And then we so we looked into the work of

775
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: some journalists who have published books on on this very question. Yeah,

776
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:29,959
Speaker 1: there's a two thousand and three book it's called from

777
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 1: Bevan to Blair fifty Years Reporting from the Political front Line.

778
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 1: It's a former Mirror journalist Jeffrey Goodman who's writing it,

779
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,879
Speaker 1: and he concludes that Maxwell was murdered quite possibly by

780
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 1: agents of the same intelligence organizations that had assisted Maxwell

781
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: in the past. And we've got a couple of excerpts

782
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:52,879
Speaker 1: here from the book that we'd like to read for you.

783
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: The first one is quote the possibility that Maxwell could

784
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: have ended up in the Old Bailey, that's a jail,

785
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 1: actually in prison on charges of criminal fraud raised critical

786
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 1: questions for a number of countries involved in the Maxwell

787
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:11,880
Speaker 1: triangle of international dealings. So he's already there laying out

788
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 1: the connections essentially in the danger and he goes on

789
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: to say, Bob Maxwell, Robert Maxwell in the dock of

790
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: the Old Bailey was not a prospect. Any of these groups,

791
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: which included the United States, Britain, Soviet Russia, Israel and France,

792
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: would have appreciated. The intelligence services in all of these

793
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: countries were aware of the dangers. My own theory is

794
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 1: that any of them, or even a combination of several,

795
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 1: could have been responsible for Maxwell's death. Now, really quickly

796
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: think about what that means. If someone with intelligence from

797
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 1: all of these different countries, who has knowledge of the

798
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: inner workings of intelligence agencies and bad things that they've

799
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 1: probably done, uh from all these different countries, is in jail,

800
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:00,879
Speaker 1: he could turn on any one of them or all

801
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 1: of them, or you know, one could be the winner

802
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,359
Speaker 1: essentially and everybody else gets screwed. Um. And that that

803
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: completely checks out from a factual standpoint if in fact

804
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 1: he was functioning as a spy or in some kind

805
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 1: of intelligence aspect for these groups. Yeah, yeah, and it's

806
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:23,320
Speaker 1: not it's not as uh crazy as it might sound,

807
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: because think about this. If you are if you are

808
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: an agency or an organization like any of the ones named,

809
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 1: then what you are doing is maybe less a matter

810
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: of what would be considered ethical and more a matter

811
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:42,759
Speaker 1: of how you controlled the distribution of order and chaos.

812
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,800
Speaker 1: So there's a calculation, if there's any there's homicide involved,

813
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 1: then there has to be a calculation where someone says, Okay,

814
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 1: how do we handle the financial fallout and what this

815
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 1: does to the markets. And if the calculation comes back

816
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:58,280
Speaker 1: and it's like we can handle it, we can actually

817
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 1: turn it to our advantage, then why would you, why

818
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,439
Speaker 1: would you help this person just because it's the right

819
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 1: thing to do? Forget that. No, there's a very Nietzschean

820
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 1: I think reasoning and intelligence agencies a little tiny at

821
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: a detail, The Old Bailey is more than just a jail.

822
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: It's actually the central Criminal Court of England and Wales.

823
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 1: And you you might remember it's the building that is

824
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 1: targeted as a terrorist attack in v for Vendetta. It

825
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 1: represents kind of like you know, the law in London

826
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: and the UK um and so he would have been

827
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,880
Speaker 1: potentially in like a holding cell there with all of

828
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: the people sniffing around, asking all the wrong questions that

829
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 1: these governments would not want to have had him under interrogation,

830
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: answering right, a lot of publicity. And you imagine someone

831
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 1: in that position would have to make some kind of

832
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 1: a deal for his own safety almost immediately, and he

833
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 1: would have to be on the table like beforehand. You'd

834
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 1: you'd have to you'd want to get a judge to

835
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 1: of you some kind of immunity, let's say, for crimes

836
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,839
Speaker 1: that took place in the nineties and early two thousand's

837
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:11,280
Speaker 1: in Florida, right right, there's a there's a there's another

838
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: book that was published a year before. It goes even

839
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 1: further with his accusation. It's called Robert Maxwell Israel's Superspides

840
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 1: by these authors, Matt Dillon and Gordon Thomas, and its

841
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 1: specifically claims that Massad got rid of Maxwell after he

842
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 1: was driven by financial desperation to call them and threatened

843
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,359
Speaker 1: to blow the whistle on past activities that because he

844
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 1: had assisted uh these places numerous times. He said, I'm

845
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:38,800
Speaker 1: going to blow the whistle on this if you don't

846
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 1: give me the cash. I need to keep my business aflow.

847
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 1: His business is, by the way, I don't think we

848
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 1: said this yet. All told, they were about three billion

849
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:52,839
Speaker 1: pounds under water before, you know, before he was that's

850
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,320
Speaker 1: that's intense. Three billion pounds down. Yeah, and then you ask,

851
00:54:56,719 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 1: you know, Israel essentially to to pay for it in

852
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 1: their in their claims, you know, and just numerically it

853
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 1: makes sense because if you need three billion pounds or

854
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 1: three billion dollars, once you get to the B level

855
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: of this stuff, you need state assistance. Maybe maybe there

856
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:19,359
Speaker 1: are banks that could help you, but they would want

857
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 1: the state involved, maybe the maybe the Catholic Church, but

858
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 1: they would also probably want the banks involved. Does that

859
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 1: mean he was a pretty terrible business person to let

860
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: his businesses get that far in debt. That's unheard of.

861
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:36,919
Speaker 1: That's that's insane. They're they're huge empires. It's we're talking

862
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 1: about the press, right, We're talking about newspapers, right. I mean,

863
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: these things have been making so much money over you know,

864
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 1: for decades, and then all of a sudden the bottom

865
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 1: kind of falls out, so that it was in the

866
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: same boat as a lot of a lot of publishers.

867
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 1: I'm sure. Yeah. And then we want to note this book,

868
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:03,320
Speaker 1: Israel's Superspies, based on interviews with former intelligence agents from

869
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 1: three different countries Israel, U, s UK. And according to

870
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: the book, he was actually out there by the Canary Islands,

871
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 1: not for funzies, but because he was expecting to receive

872
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 1: a payment from Massad and his yacht was anchored so

873
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 1: he could have a rendezvous with these agents. And they

874
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 1: met him. Yeah, in this theory, they met him, but

875
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 1: they didn't give him what they thought they were going

876
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:32,919
Speaker 1: to give him. To be to put a fine point

877
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: on it, the story is that he got drugged and

878
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 1: tossed overboard. But we bring it all back together, so

879
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 1: we've got a lot of stuff here. If indeed these

880
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 1: men were murdered, and if indeed they were murdered by

881
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: the same organization, it always seems to point to some

882
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 1: intelligence organization, or if they were murdered by like a

883
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 1: web of interlocking organizations that you know, sometimes conflict but

884
00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 1: all got on board about stopping this guy from squealing,

885
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:04,359
Speaker 1: then is it possible that gallainn Maxwell, who was so

886
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 1: close to both of these individuals, was also somehow involved

887
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 1: in or associated with the various murky missions these men

888
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: are alleged to have undertaken. I don't know. And if

889
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 1: that's true, what does it mean for the future of

890
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 1: galas Maxwell. More importantly, I would argue, what does it

891
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 1: mean for the victims of the Epstein Ring who continue

892
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: to fight for justice as we record this episode today.

893
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, and I know it's I know it's

894
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 1: a hell of a logical leap to say that there

895
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 1: might be that some of this might like the Robert

896
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 1: Maxwell stuff I think we can say is very credible,

897
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 1: the Jeffrey Epstein stuff, I think we can say indications

898
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 1: are very troubling because the Galain Maxwell stuff, though it's

899
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 1: still it exists concurrently with these other things, but it's

900
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: not proof yet. I don't know what is it for me?

901
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 1: The alarms are all going off and again it it

902
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: is just opinion at this point, but it feels as

903
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 1: though the activities that Gillane and Epstein were involved in,

904
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: specifically the filming and you know, recording of sexual activities

905
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 1: that were going on in all these locations across the

906
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 1: world with powerful people, with Gillane's connections to her father

907
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: and possible spy activities. It just it's at least if

908
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 1: you're writing it as a fiction piece, it would be perfect.

909
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Uhuh No? I mean, look, obviously

910
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 1: part of the show sometimes is like, uh are interesting

911
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 1: and informed speculation, and that certainly is part of what

912
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 1: we're doing here. But god if it doesn't all kind

913
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 1: of add up, uh in a big, big way? I mean,

914
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 1: people do I feel like maybe I should have said

915
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 1: this in the Rebecca Arium episode. I don't remember if

916
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 1: we did. It is true that people do slip and

917
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 1: fall off of votes. That does happen in the Quarium case.

918
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 1: Obviously it's hard to slip and fall somehow getting around

919
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 1: a six ft enclosure. But in this case, ah, yeah,

920
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 1: there are a lot of questions. I am not surprised

921
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 1: that these questions remain, because a lot of them do

922
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 1: need to be answered, and it gets pretty deep into

923
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: the Cold War. It gets pretty deep into the idea

924
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 1: of compromise they would call it, and the idea of

925
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:39,439
Speaker 1: the nature of leverage and power. But really this point,

926
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 1: we don't know how that bail package will go for

927
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 1: the Galaenn Maxwell team. While her team's reportedly doing everything

928
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:49,520
Speaker 1: they can to assure the court she's not a flight risk,

929
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 1: and while the d o J has even been keeping

930
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:55,920
Speaker 1: her on a strict suicide watch, like every fifteen minutes

931
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 1: someone comes in to make sure she's alive, it's still

932
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 1: no surprise that people around the world think her life

933
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 1: is in serious danger or could be. You know. Um,

934
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 1: And but if that's the case, then what has protected

935
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 1: her so far? If someone is behind all of this,

936
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:17,840
Speaker 1: then who were they and what happens next? Yeah, I'll

937
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 1: have to find out as we get closer to her trial. Um,

938
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 1: because it feels like that won't be a I don't

939
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:26,960
Speaker 1: know if if any of this is true, it feels

940
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 1: like that wouldn't be allowed to continue. No, I I agree,

941
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 1: I mean I think something likely is going to happen

942
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,280
Speaker 1: that's going to prevent that from taking place? I think

943
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:41,160
Speaker 1: so do you. One of my questions too, is Okay, obviously,

944
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of sand to the Maxwell

945
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 1: to the Robert Maxwell stuff, and I'm still I'm still

946
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 1: very much on the fence about the Jeffrey Epstein death.

947
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 1: But one question that I wanted to bring to you guys,

948
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: and I think it's something that's surprised all us when

949
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:04,160
Speaker 1: we were first looking into the Epstein case, is why

950
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 1: isn't there a dead hand system that got deployed here,

951
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, in either the Maxwell case

952
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 1: or the Epstein case, And is it does galainn Maxwell

953
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 1: have some kind of insurance policy? Is that? I don't know.

954
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 1: Maybe she was the dead hand, you know what I mean,

955
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 1: like maybe she controlled it. Uh, yeah, that's all. It's

956
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 1: all speculation, right we we we actually want to hear

957
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 1: from you. I'd love to hear your speculation. But I

958
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:34,480
Speaker 1: have also I think we would love to hear if

959
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 1: you know something, If you wouldn't mind communicating with us,

960
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 1: if you feel safe about doing that, UM, we'd very

961
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,000
Speaker 1: much like to hear what you have to say on

962
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:46,760
Speaker 1: this whole thing, And if you want to get in

963
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:48,920
Speaker 1: touch with us, you can find us all across the

964
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 1: internet on social media. On Twitter and Facebook, we are

965
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 1: conspiracy Stuff. On Instagram we are Conspiracy Stuff Show. If

966
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:00,120
Speaker 1: you head over to YouTube, we are also conspiracy stuff there,

967
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:02,520
Speaker 1: and you can watch an excerpt, hopefully very soon, of

968
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 1: this podcast on video. Watch our faces and make these

969
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 1: sounds as unsettling as it will be for you. It

970
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 1: may be enjoyable too. Yeah, yeah, well, some things are

971
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 1: both unsettling and enjoyable, and maybe maybe that's the space

972
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:21,160
Speaker 1: this show occupies. So if you if you don't like

973
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 1: social media, give us a call, give us a ring.

974
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:26,920
Speaker 1: We are one eight three three st d w y

975
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 1: t K. You have three minutes. They completely belong to you.

976
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:33,000
Speaker 1: Let us know what's on your mind, give us leads

977
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 1: on new topics you think your fellow listeners will enjoy.

978
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 1: Response is something you heard here, and most importantly, let

979
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 1: us know if it's okay to use your name and

980
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 1: or voice on the air. And hey, why not also

981
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 1: pop on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review.

982
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 1: It's a great way for folks to discover the show

983
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 1: and to bump us up in the rankings and the

984
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 1: algorithm and all that good Internet e stuff. And it

985
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 1: also warms our cold dead hearts if you don't want

986
01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 1: to do any of that stuff, but you still, you know,

987
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 1: maybe you have Internet access and you only have like

988
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 1: a you know, Commodore sixty four with like an old

989
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:06,920
Speaker 1: floppy disk version of ao L on. It still connects

990
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 1: to the Internet, but she can't do all the Facebook

991
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 1: you know, bells and whistles. You just want to send

992
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 1: us an old fashioned email, Go right on ahead. We

993
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 1: are conspiracy at i heart radio dot com. Stuff they

994
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:37,960
Speaker 1: don't want you to know is a production of I

995
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit

996
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997
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Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.