1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Time Out. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: activists on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator. 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: And I'm doctor add Neru Kar, a physician and medical 5 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 1: correspondent with an expertise in the science of stress, resilience, 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: mental health, and burnout. We're here to peel back to 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: layers around why it's so easy for society to guard 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: men's time as if it's diamonds, and to treat women's 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: time as if it's infinite like sands. And whether you 10 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: are partnered with or without children, or in a career 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: where you want more boundaries, this is the place for 12 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: you for all family structures. We're here to take a 13 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: time out to learn, get inspired, and most importantly, reclaim 14 00:00:49,760 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: our time. Hi d D, how are you high? Eve? Today? 15 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: I wanted to start with a story that I tell 16 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: about how damn scared I was to record the audio 17 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: book for fair Play. Like physical manifestations of stress, you know, 18 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: panic attacks, shortness of breath. Anytime I thought about recording 19 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: the audio book, typically authors of nonfiction do record their 20 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: own audio, and it was something I knew I really 21 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: wanted to do some man wanted to conquer, but I 22 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: was really paralyzed with the idea. So I kept putting 23 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: it off and off, because often I think in the 24 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: face of fear, one of the best coping mechanisms that's 25 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: probably not the healthiest is procrastinations. So I did that one, 26 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: and it wasn't working because every time I think about it, 27 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: I'd be like, why do I have that pit in 28 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: my stomach? Oh? God, this the audio book I'm thinking about. 29 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: It's the back of my head. Often fear for me 30 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: sits as butterflies in my stomach, for really tightness in 31 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: my chest. I do know that those feelings since being 32 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: very early. I remember feeling that first probably is a 33 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: kindergartener or earlier in thinking, you know, why is my 34 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 1: stomach always hurt? So I decide to do something about 35 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: my fear. I decided to prepare. I start to read 36 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: about how people combat fear. Preparation is a really really 37 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: important one. One woman, I think she said she gave 38 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: her Ted talk over a thousand times to herself before 39 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: she actually delivered it. And so my preparation for reading 40 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: the audio book was to sign up for a voiceover class. Cool. 41 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: That's the beauty of living in Los Angeles pre pandemic. 42 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: There are a lot of people here who are trying 43 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: to be actors or voiceover specialists apparently, and so there's 44 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: lots of classes. So I found one in Burbank, and 45 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: I show up for my first voiceover class, and the 46 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: people adity were really diverse and interesting. I became friends 47 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: with a woman who was auditioning to be a rat 48 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: in a new movie or some sort of rodent and 49 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: a man who was auditioning to be Charlie the Star 50 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: Kiss Tuna apparently that was going to be coming back 51 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: as a campaign. And both of these people gave me 52 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: really important life lessons, how to project, how to use 53 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: soft drama hands when you're talking into a microphone, and 54 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: then high drama hands when you want to really emphasize 55 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: a point. Rodent lady told me that my job is 56 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: gonna be so easy because I get to read my 57 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: own words as opposed to Rodent speak, which is obviously 58 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: not even English. And the reason why that was so 59 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: important to me was because I realized that the preparation, 60 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: but we're gonna be talking about the ready set go 61 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: for a work of fear being ready, preparing through these 62 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: voice over lessons, getting set by having a community of 63 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: spiritual friends, which were Charlie the Darkest Tuna and Rat 64 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: Woman at that point in my life, and then just 65 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: going to go they're ready the set, and then going 66 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 1: immersing yourself, going to the studio, saying those first words 67 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: and getting better and better by chapter is what got 68 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: me through a time a dity that was really really 69 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: stressful and hard. And so I think about those damply lit, 70 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: poorly attended p t A meeting style voiceover lessons who 71 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: knew how important Charlie the Darkest Tuna would be to 72 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: me in my creative journey. But I want to thank you, 73 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:57,239 Speaker 1: Charlie the Darkest Tuna Man and Rat Lady, who didn't 74 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: give me releases to use their full names, but I 75 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: I'm calling you by that, and we love you and 76 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of you today. It's amazing how something like 77 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: writing a book you face so many of your fears, 78 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: and you likely had fears when you were writing the 79 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: book and doing your research, but you were able to 80 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: push through and then when it came time to sharing 81 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: it with the world and sharing your work with the world, 82 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: even if it was in a studio for an audio 83 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: book recording that only you would hear. Initially, it seemed 84 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: like something that was insurmountable. And often what we see 85 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: with fear is that sometimes it can be a very 86 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: legitimate fear of I want to climb Mount Everest, but 87 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: I'm afraid to climb out Everest, and that's a truly 88 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: legitimate But equally legitimate are these fears that may not 89 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: seem scary from the outside, but boys, do they feel 90 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: legitimate inside with what's happening with our biology and our 91 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: brain and our heart palpitations, that amygdala, that fight or 92 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: flight response, And that's the thing that's so fascinating to 93 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: me about fear is that the part of our brain 94 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: that recognizes fear, the amygdala, which we've talked about in 95 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 1: our very first episode of this podcast. That brain structure 96 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: and all of the structures around it called the limbic 97 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: system or the reptilian brain. It processes fear the same 98 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: way whether you're at base camp of Mount Everest and 99 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: looking at the peak and saying I'm going to climb 100 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: this mountain or your own personal Everest in your case 101 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: recording the audio book, same fight or flight response, same 102 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: Amigdala response. And I love the practice that you ascribe 103 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: in your book, Ready Set Go, because it really helps 104 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 1: us overcome that a Magdala response. The more you practice 105 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: something and visualize it and imagine yourself in the scenario, 106 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: it dampens that heightened emotional state because you are truly 107 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: facing our your fears. Your brain doesn't recognize something as 108 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: imaginary versus real. So when you rehearse scenarios, which is 109 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: that woman with the TED talk who practiced a thousand times, 110 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: she may have truly to the world only given one 111 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: TED talk, but to her and her brain and her amygdala, 112 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: she gave a thousand and one Ted talks of already 113 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: said go framework. So, if you think about preparation, having 114 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: that spiritual friendship, community doesn't have to be a stark 115 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: is Tuna man or the actual repetition itself of doing 116 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: so for you? What's what piece of the framework. Is 117 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: it the preparation that makes fear easier for you? Is 118 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: it the community of support or is it the actual 119 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: doing and doing and doing the go part? I think 120 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: all three are so critical, but at different points. So 121 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: early on in the project, at the inception stage, that 122 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: first part of thinking about it is the great hurdle. 123 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: And then once you have whatever you're afraid of, something 124 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,239 Speaker 1: that you've done once or twice and are still afraid 125 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: that practice and perfecting, sharing with other people to get 126 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: that support and buy in, emotional buy in, and then 127 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: ultimately the doing. But it's a process and it can't happen. 128 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: You can't go from zero to sixty. You have to 129 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: take all of those necessary steps. It also helps to 130 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: prime the brain when you take all of those steps, 131 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: because you can't just look at everyst and say all right, 132 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: I'm ready going to climb. It's a whole marathon. It's 133 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: a training and you have to almost train your brain 134 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: to overcome the fear. And I think the ready, set, 135 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: go mindset and framework helps us to do that. Yeah, 136 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because for me, being able to combine 137 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: ready and set a lot is often a way for 138 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: me to come to combat fear. Shout out to my 139 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: friend Zoe, She's sleeps in bed with me. When I 140 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: go on tour, have to give a giant speech. And 141 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: I remember after conquering the audio book Fear, the next 142 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: one right after that was the first talk I was 143 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: giving unfair play it was in Radio City Music Hall. 144 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: She had gone to was a kid on many field trips, 145 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: but I remember I think it was right after Condoleeza 146 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: Rice and right before Diane von first Bour. I was 147 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: the only one that was required to do a stand 148 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: up ted talk type speech. Everybody else seemed to have 149 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: been afforded a nice chair in some sort of panel discussion, 150 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: which would have been easier. But I do remember that, 151 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: and then having Zoe there, she was my set, and 152 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: then the going. Like you said, I probably did feel 153 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: like I gave that speech a thousand times by that 154 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,959 Speaker 1: time I got up on that stage because I poor Zoe. 155 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 1: She has she probably knows her an Air and Aaron 156 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: out there shout out to you. I have two people 157 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 1: who probably know my keynote speech now better better than 158 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: I do. Fear is a tricky thing, and there's some 159 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: people who have really mastered fear, they still get afraid 160 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: and do it anyway, you know. I think about someone 161 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: who I really admire, Sarah Blakely, and she talks a 162 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: lot about fear and the fear of failure, which is 163 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: something that we're going to be talking about later in 164 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: our episode, and how her father growing up would always 165 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: ask her, so, how did you fail today? And she 166 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: had to celebrate her failures and so she didn't have 167 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 1: a fear of failure, so she could try new different 168 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: things as an adult. But I think about how we 169 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: all have a very distinct and unique relationship to fear, 170 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: and it's not necessarily that the fear isn't present for 171 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: people who take risks both in their life and in 172 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: their work. It's that they figured out strategies, tools, and 173 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: mechanisms to have that fear, do it anyway and overcome 174 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: a lot of those primal urges to step back into 175 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: safety and comfort. So a lot of the strategies that 176 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 1: we're talking about is not necessarily to remove the fear 177 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: because fear is naturally an important thing for evolutionary growth. 178 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: Fear is a signal of something, and when it's adaptive, 179 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: it can be really positive. But when it becomes maladaptive 180 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: prevents you from reaching your highest potential, that's when it's 181 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: a problem. It's okay to be afraid, but the trick 182 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: is to figure out a strategy that's personalized for you 183 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: so you can do it anyway, whatever that it is. Yes, 184 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 1: I love that framing. We are not here to tell 185 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: you to be fearless. I never understood that word. Do 186 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: it anyway, and that's why we're so excited to talk 187 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 1: with our amazing guests, Brad Johnson and David Smith. David 188 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: and Brad are co authors of the book Good Guys, 189 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: How Men Can Be Better Allies for Women in the Workplace, 190 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 1: a topic that's close to my heart, and we'll be 191 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: speaking with them after the break about their book and 192 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: their research. So stay with us. We're so excited to 193 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: have Dr Brad Johnson and Dr David Smith, co authors 194 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: of the book Good Guys, How Men Can Be Better 195 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: Allies for Women in the Workplace, with us today. Welcome 196 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: Brad and David. Glad to be here, Eve, and add 197 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: thanks to you. Great to be here with you. So 198 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: before we start talking about fear I would love for 199 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: our listeners to know a little bit more about your story. 200 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: How did you come into this work. It's such a 201 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: fascinating story and I would love for you to share it. 202 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: You know, Brand and I started our collaboration on this 203 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: topic when we were both teaching at the Naval Academy's 204 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: faculty there, and we quickly recognized Nick early on in 205 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: our time together that we had a lot of different 206 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: kinds of connections in terms of why this work was 207 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: important to us, you know, our academic backgrounds and clinical 208 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: psychologist and his focus on mentoring relationships. We we definitely 209 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,599 Speaker 1: saw where there was different access to different kinds of 210 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: important resources. But the other part that I think is 211 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: really important is the personal connection to doing this work. 212 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: You know, it started early, you know, the beginning of 213 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: my career, my Navy career as a pilot. I was 214 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 1: married and still I am married to my wife, who 215 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: who also was a nable officer, had a very similar career, 216 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: parallel career paths, and of course, you know, we talked 217 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: a lot about our experiences in the workplace, but there 218 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,599 Speaker 1: were so many differences in terms of how the workplace 219 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: was just this very challenging for her compared to me 220 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: in ways that that I just didn't understand. I didn't 221 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: see it because I didn't experience it in the same 222 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: way that she did. And if I was looking for 223 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: help I needed a mentor, or if I was looking 224 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: for hey, what should I do next? And those kind 225 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: of things were just right there at my fingertips. I 226 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: didn't have to look very far for her, not as much, 227 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: and and so I think her sharing some of those 228 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,239 Speaker 1: experiences really got in touch one of my sense of fairness, 229 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: but also too with the idea that lots of other 230 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: women are experiencing this too, And so a lot of 231 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: ways that was that personal experience was also part of 232 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: the curiosity and the inquisitiveness that I have around this topic. 233 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: And I'll just offer a quick thumbnail that I think 234 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: will help you understand my personal narratives. So I I 235 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: have a sister. She's a Navy captain, very senior, very successful. 236 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: I called her one weekend and she sounded kind of down, 237 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: and I said, Shannah, what's going on? And she said, well, 238 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: we had this road race with members of the executive team, 239 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: and she's the only woman on the executive team. Most 240 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: of the men she works with her younger. And I said, well, 241 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: what happened on the on this ten k you ran? Well, 242 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: I won, And I said, well, that actually sounds great 243 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: to congrats and she said, well, I was feeling good 244 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: when I crossed the finish line. I felt yeah. And 245 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: then all the men started crossing the finish line, and 246 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: I could tell they were shocked that I beat them all. 247 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: And and then they all started coming up to me 248 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: with their own excuse, kind of like, hey, good job, Shannon, 249 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: but yeah, my achilles or I was really dehydrated. And 250 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: she realized they felt bad about being beaten by a woman. 251 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: And then she started internalizing and feeling guilty that she 252 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: had run so fast. And I said, Shannon, can you 253 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: hear yourself? A dude would never say that, he'd just 254 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: be like in your face. And those conversations with my 255 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: sister over twenty five years in in really parallel navy careers, 256 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: have just piqued my concern, my curiosity, like Dave, kind 257 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: of triggered my sense of injustice, I think in some ways. 258 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: And that in addition to looking at all the research 259 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: showing that women just get less mentoring and sponsoring and 260 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: lower quality sponsoring, I think all of that together has 261 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: been kind of part of what's instigated my interest. I 262 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: would love to ask you about your work with impostor syndrome. 263 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,479 Speaker 1: It's something that I have certainly faced in my own trajectory. 264 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: I've some of our listeners may be new to tackling 265 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: their impostor syndrome. I'd left for you to give us 266 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: some of your thoughts on why this happens more to 267 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: women than men. I'm so glad you're thinking about this 268 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: impostor issue. Dave and I wrote an article in HBRE 269 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: on how we can be better mentors for people with 270 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: imposter syndrome, and I think if you're really dig into 271 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: the research on this, you do find there's a gendered element. 272 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: So more people, more women do report having impostor feelings. 273 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: But I think what we lose sight of is very 274 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,199 Speaker 1: often that is a consequence of the culture or the 275 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 1: context in which they're functioning. It's a culture that gives 276 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: them messages that you don't belong. We've never seen a 277 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: woman in this role. You're weird, right, and and that 278 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: certainly creates cognitions and feelings that I don't belong. I'm 279 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: not going to make it. Everyone's watching for me to 280 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: make a mistake. Any minute, I'm going to blow it, 281 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: and they're gonna show me to the exit. I mean, 282 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: the irony is all of us have those feelings. Men too. 283 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: Every time we enter a new job, we feel like impostures. 284 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 1: That's just part of the human condition. But when I 285 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: hear that from somebody I'm ntoring or I'm an ally with, 286 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 1: I want to focus more on where are those messages 287 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: coming from, not is there something wrong with you that 288 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: you have self doubt. I want to look at the 289 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: context and then begin to devise strategies for pushing back 290 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: on that and also changing that context so that those 291 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: messages aren't being transmitted to women. I wonder if you 292 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: could talk a little bit about how to combat fear 293 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: in those situations, meaning whether it's legitimate fear right. I 294 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: was reading Katie Kuric's autobiography and she's talking about the 295 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 1: men that dropped their pants when women were entering their offices. 296 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: So there could be legitimate fear and trauma of being 297 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: a certain way of looking, a certain way of being 298 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: a marginalized population in an organization. I like to joke, 299 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: you know, women are not really allowed to be loud 300 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: and wrong. There's a fear around what if I say 301 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: the wrong thing. I am that token, so I'm here 302 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: to represent everybody and everything. Even I saw in Whitney 303 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: heard when she had her bumble I p O. The 304 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: lawyers in her I p O statement that goes out 305 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: to potential investors said there's extra risk here because this 306 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: is a female founder, and there's market risk because she's 307 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: going to be subjected to so much more scrutiny. So 308 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: how do you again think about ways to combat your 309 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: own fear when there are legitimate reasons why, as you said, 310 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: minorities populations would be conditioned to feel trauma from and 311 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: have actual reasons to be afraid. There's so many things 312 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: we could talk about here. Let me start with the 313 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: cognitive or the self talk. I'm such a fan of 314 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: all the cognitive therapy work around anxiety. When we have 315 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: anxiety about performance or anxiety about being inadequate, one of 316 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 1: the really powerful techniques for combating anxiety in that area 317 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: tends to be really watching, identifying, and then tweaking or 318 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: managing myself talk. So when I'm saying things to myself 319 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: in that context, like I must perform perfectly on this 320 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: to represent all women really well and be absolutely flawless. Um. 321 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: One of my favorite cognitive psychologist, Albert Ellis, would say, 322 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: you're musturbating. You need you need to stop that, or 323 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: same with I should I I should be perfect, I 324 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: should show up and knock it out of the park 325 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: on behalf of all women. He would say, you're shooting 326 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 1: on yourself and you need to stop that. But I 327 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: can look at my catastrophic thinking, right, I tend to 328 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: bloat out of proportion and say, oh my god, if 329 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: I don't show up today and get it perfectly right, 330 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to be fired, or all women are going 331 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: to be cast in a negative light. It's going to 332 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: be catastrophic. Let's pull that back and and just check 333 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,959 Speaker 1: that what I prefer to do really well. Yes, absolutely, 334 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 1: and that's a legitimate wish. I think we could all 335 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: wish that. But would it be catastrophic if I'm not perfect? No? 336 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: And so there's some personal work I can do here 337 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: with my own self talk and really examine. I'm such 338 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: a big fan of what we're telling ourselves, and I 339 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: think that wonderful mentor can call this out to or 340 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 1: just a great ally or colleague, kind of like me 341 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,719 Speaker 1: with my sister. Right, I can say, Shannon, can you 342 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: hear yourself? I mean, no, wonder you're feeling sad or 343 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 1: down on yourself? Are guilty if you're saying that you 344 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,719 Speaker 1: shouldn't have made those men feel bad about running so 345 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: fast and crushing him in the race. What if we 346 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 1: change that? What if you're narrative was you know I 347 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: really performed well, and I feel proud of that, and 348 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: how they react to that is really up to them. 349 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 1: So I can twist that narrative a bit. I can 350 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: attack the shame too with some behavioral exposure therapy, and 351 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 1: I can do my own personal exposure therapy by putting 352 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: myself in a situation where I I know I'm going 353 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: to be embarrassed or not get it right, or people 354 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: are going to be looking at me, and recognize that 355 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: I can tolerate that. It's another cognitive therapy intervention. Again. 356 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: Albert Ellis would give his patients assignments like go to 357 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 1: a mall, have a banana on a leash and just 358 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: pull it through the whole and everyone's going to stare 359 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: at you, and you're gonna feel like an idiot? Can 360 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: you tolerate that? Right? And you can if you make 361 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 1: yourself do that. So, if shame is part of it, 362 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 1: or feeling like you're gonna embarrass yourself for others, can 363 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 1: you deliberately expose yourself to some of that and do 364 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: it with an attitude of humor so that it becomes 365 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: a little less overwhelming when it actually occurs. By the way, 366 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: there's a shell servicing poem where this kid wants a dog, 367 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: and then he's just carrying his hot dog around on 368 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: a piece of string. That's that's what I think. It 369 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: also reminds me of Sarah Blakely, who is a very 370 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: successful entrepreneur and the founder of Spanks, and she often 371 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 1: talks about her father growing up wouldn't ask her, you know, so, 372 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: how did you sick? See today he would ask her, so, 373 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: how did you fail today? Tell me all about it? 374 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 1: And so it became the gamification of failure, and so 375 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: that sting of failure becomes so much less pronounced. I 376 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: love that adity. And you know, when we wrote about perfectionism, 377 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 1: we actually said, hey, if you're mentoring somebody with perfectionism, 378 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 1: give them an assignment to, for example, send you an 379 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: email full of typos and then not tell you they're 380 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: going to do it right, and then just tolerate. Oh 381 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: my god, how's my mentor going to evaluate me with 382 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: such shoddy work. Well, give them assignments to do that, 383 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: so they come right into exposure with that, and then 384 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 1: they get the experience and it's not going to kill him. 385 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: Do you feel that women are more prone to perfectionism 386 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: than men? It might be a little question. Yeah, we do, 387 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: and there's some of that in the research, and I 388 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: think we inherit some of that, I think from the 389 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: experiences we have with family members and especially for girls 390 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 1: with their moms, and so that that can be one 391 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: place that they learned that. And this again back to 392 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: the environment, right, the relationships you have around with people. 393 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: But again I think women more likely to be in 394 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: those token where they're the minority way more likely to 395 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: to be I think susceptible to this. Yeah, and there's 396 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: an evidence space note of reality here too. Write you've 397 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: heard of the prove it again bias that women encounter. 398 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: She representing all women, is more likely to have to 399 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: prove over and over again she can do the same job. 400 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: And we know that men get the nod on potential 401 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 1: right even if he's never even demonstrated that before. So 402 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: there's an element of truth here, of genuine reality that 403 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: women are pushed to have more flawless performance. When they 404 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 1: do make a mistake, we tend to remember it more, 405 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: especially if there are a minority in the company. So 406 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: they have some realistic hurdles here around being under the 407 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: microscope and exhibiting flawless behavior. And that gets back to 408 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: the fear internal fear of failure. You know, if I 409 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: apply for that position or for that advancement, or whatever 410 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: the case might be, and I don't have everything and 411 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: I fail, it's like again the fear of failure, of 412 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: fear of letting down all women out there. That again, 413 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: it's it's real. Can we talk about your fears? It's 414 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 1: sort of these meta levels of fear. We're talking about fear, 415 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: as we said, in different ways, impostor syndrome, self talk 416 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: type fears, things that frees us, legitimate fears and the 417 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: context of being, as you said, a token our minoritized population. 418 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: But I actually think that even if you didn't have 419 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: this whole layer of expertise, I would have still wanted 420 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: to come to you. Brad and David say, the military 421 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 1: teaches a lot about fear. I wanted to ask each 422 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: of you, what is something that you have learned in 423 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: writing all of those articles and read all of your books. 424 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: What has most surprised you about your own fears and 425 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: how you've gotten over them. Yeah, you know, Eve, in 426 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,959 Speaker 1: terms of what has surprised me in my case, the 427 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: one that I'll use was terrible fear of public speaking. 428 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,959 Speaker 1: I always hated that. I mean, I couldn't stand that. 429 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: I avoided it at every turn. And and the irony 430 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: is that after a career of being a professor and 431 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 1: speaking constantly, that has been the cure, exposure therapy and 432 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: doing it every day. But I can tell you back 433 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: in the years when I was avoiding, and I did 434 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: that for a long time, I would only speak under duress. Right, 435 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: You'd have to almost tie me down to get me 436 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,479 Speaker 1: to speak. In those years, I made no progress whatsoever, zero. 437 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: And it was really only when I started forcing myself 438 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: to do this every day, get up in front of classes, 439 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: that I could just feel the angs idy ebbing and 440 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: eventually kind of disappearing. I think it's unhelpful to offer 441 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: a mastery model, right, Hey, I used to be afraid 442 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: of this, and now I've kicked its rear end and 443 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: now I have no anxiety. That's so unrealistic. Rather, what 444 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: I say is, hey, I'm really doing a lot better 445 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: with this. I've learned all these techniques. I really value 446 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: exposure because it's been very helpful. But I'll tell you, 447 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: if you stand me up in front of a room 448 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: of five thousand people, I might still have anxiety, right, 449 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to deploy all my techniques and it'll 450 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: probably go fine, but I'm gonna still feel the anxiety 451 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: because I don't want anybody who's listening to me to 452 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: think that it goes away. Ever, we're just on a 453 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: journey of coping effectively, and I think that's what I've 454 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: tried to do. I came into my second career in 455 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: a lot of my writing much later in life. Doing 456 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: research and theorizing and putting your ideas out there could 457 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: be very anxiety producing as well. And one of the 458 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: things I learned is that having a mentor or somebody 459 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: else who can walk you along and can come alongside 460 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: with you to kind of slowly stepped that up. I 461 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 1: think it's helpful too. Has it been nice for you 462 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: to do it together? Because I a lot of what 463 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,239 Speaker 1: I wrote about in my second book, Around Fear was 464 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: that having spiritual friends, however those come along for you 465 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: as writing spiritual friends. Did it help to have each other? Yes? Absolutely. 466 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: You know, in the military we use the term wingman 467 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: a lot, and I think that, I think truly in 468 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: this space, Eve, because we're two men, especially older white men, 469 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: writing about gender and women's experience, in the workplace. I mean, 470 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: we're painting a big target on our chest right when 471 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: we go up, and so just to have another guy 472 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: up there with you, bumbling along and you know, we're 473 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: both stepping in it together and when we get it wrong, 474 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: we have to just laugh at ourselves. But it does 475 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: help to have somebody there with you kind of walking that. 476 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: I love that, But I think it's Brad mentioned there's 477 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: also an opportunity to, you know, to have some humor 478 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: and maybe something for us. It's often self deprecating humor 479 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: around the mistakes we've made, and to be able to 480 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: kind of feed off of each other with that. And 481 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: then again, I think sharing what you've learned along the 482 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: way is really helpful too. I will say, I think 483 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: humor is so helpful, and I think you both have it, 484 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: which is why you come off so authentically and why 485 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: you can be two white men talking about gender. Thank you, 486 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: Brad and Dave. You make me laugh. You're super vulnerable, 487 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: you have a lot of important things to say, and 488 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: we were so happy to have you here. Hi, it's 489 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: me Eve. I wrote find your Unicorn Space as a 490 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: permission slip for you to reconnect and discover that thing 491 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: that makes you come alive without the guilt, without the excuses. 492 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: Especially in our all too busy world, making time ourselves 493 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: is essential work. It improves our health, our relationships, and 494 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: it just might be the antidote to burnout. Join me 495 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: on a journey to find your Unicorn space visit unicorn 496 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: space dot com. So a DD this week's time out, 497 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: I'm hoping our listeners can resonate with the ready, set 498 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: go framework for tackling fear. Tell us more ready is 499 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: what we were hearing about earlier about preparation. When you 500 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: can prepare, things feel easier. Has there ever been a 501 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: time where you were on stage or maybe your first 502 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: time you're on air, did you prepare to do that? 503 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: Because I always feel like things that I can do 504 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: on a fly now I can only do in the 505 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: fly because I had hours and hours and hours and 506 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: hours of preparation the first time that I did that. Absolutely, 507 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: I think over preparing is the key when you're first 508 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: starting something because it just primes your brain. You know 509 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: that doomsday scenario that Brad mentioned, it's so interesting because 510 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: it can be very detrimental, but earlier, because we're rehearsing 511 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: all of the things that can go wrong, and that 512 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: causes a lot of anxiety. But if you're able to 513 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: prepare and get ready for it, it gives us a 514 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: sense of control and lack of control is one of 515 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: our greatest fears. Well, I love that so much, and 516 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: so you get you get ready by your preparation, whatever 517 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: that means to you. I will say that the reason 518 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: why this framework is ready, set, go is because you 519 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: don't want to get stuck in preparation over preparing, and 520 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: over preparing means you will live in your in your 521 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: fear and you will not get to the go part. 522 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: So write down a way that you can prepare for 523 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,959 Speaker 1: something that you are afraid of. Set so when you 524 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: set the way to set yourself up for success, to 525 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: go for That third step is really what Brad and 526 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: Dave were talking about, which is spiritual friends. Set yourself 527 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: up with people around you who can remind you can 528 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: do this, who you can do it with. This podcast 529 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: a lot less scary because you're my co host. So 530 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: think about who can set you up for success, Who 531 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: can you bring along on your fear journey, who you 532 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: can talk to about your fears. You could do it 533 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: with to maybe make it less fearful, the way David 534 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: Brad wrote their first book together and finally the last piece. 535 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: After getting ready and finding your prep, getting set, and 536 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: bringing a spiritual friend along with you, it's time to go. 537 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: And go doesn't mean necessarily doing the thing you're afraid of. 538 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: The go is doing a thing that will expose you 539 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: to what you're afraid of. So prepare, set yourself up 540 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: with those friends, and think of a go that can 541 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: expose you to that fear. So if it is fear 542 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: of public speaking, maybe just sign up for a zoom 543 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: where you have to share a story in the group, 544 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: a writing class. We have to share your words. Take 545 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: a hot dog, tie it on the string and drag 546 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: it through them all and explain to people why you're 547 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: dragging a hot dog through them all. So I would 548 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: ask in time out today, write down a way to 549 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: get ready, get set, and then go. So that's today's 550 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: time out, and next week we'll be back with our 551 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: very last episode of the season, taking all of the 552 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: knowledge and advice we've heard so far and bringing it 553 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: full circle. Full circle, so you can start thinking about 554 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: making a commitment to your creativity, harnessing your special powers, 555 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: and thinking about what it means to build an active 556 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: legacy for yourself. Thank you for listening to Time Out, 557 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 1: a production of I Heeart podcasts and Hello Sunshine. I'm 558 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: Eve Rodsky, author of the New York Times bestseller fair 559 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: Play and find your Unicorn Space. Follow me on social 560 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 1: media at Eve Rodsky and learn more about our work 561 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: at fair Play Life. And I'm Dr add Narucar, a 562 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: Harvard physician with a specialty and stress resilience, burnout, and 563 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 1: mental health. Follow me on social media at Dr add 564 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 1: Nerucar and find out more about my work at doctor 565 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: a d D dot com. That's d R A d 566 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: I t I dot com. Our Hello Sunshine team is 567 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 1: Amanda farrand Aaron Stover and Jennifer Yonker. Our I Heart 568 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: Media team is Ali Perry, Jennifer Bassett, and Jessica Kranschit. 569 00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: We hope you all love taking a much needed time 570 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: out of us today. Listen and subscribe to Time Out 571 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 572 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: you get your favorite shows. H