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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. I hope you're sitting down.

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Speaker 1: You may need to lay down for this one. An

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma high school cheerleading coach busted for having sex with

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Speaker 1: her daughters underage boyfriend, also a student. I mean, Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here

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Speaker 1: at Fox Nation and Sirius x eleven. You know, this

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Speaker 1: morning I drove the twins to school in the minivan.

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Speaker 1: The last thing to cross my mind would have been

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Speaker 1: will the twins track coach or weight coach, you know,

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Speaker 1: the body con thing try to have sex with the twins.

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Speaker 1: I didn't even have those words in my mouth. I

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Speaker 1: want to spit them out. Who would even think that? Again,

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Speaker 1: thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation. In

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Speaker 1: series six eleven. You know what, I don't even want

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Speaker 1: to say it. I will let our France at Ko

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Speaker 1: Ko say it. Listen. The victim says Hawkins first sexually

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Speaker 1: assaulted him while they were watching a soccer game at

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Speaker 1: her home. The victim said it eventually turned into Hawkins

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Speaker 1: picking him up during his lunch break, taking him to

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Speaker 1: her home, and then they would have sex. Now we

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Speaker 1: got a statement from more public schools earlier this year

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Speaker 1: when she was relieved from her duties. They said they

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Speaker 1: learned of an allegation of inappropriate contact between an outside

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Speaker 1: athletic coach and a student that occurred in the past.

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Speaker 1: They said that they immediately contacted Oklahoma City Police, a

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Speaker 1: report was filed, and that's when they told us the

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Speaker 1: coach was immediately released from their duties. Released from their duties,

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Speaker 1: some people would call for a proper tar and sethering.

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma cheerleading coach busted having sex with her daughter's underage boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: also a student. That's the last thing I want to

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Speaker 1: hear about a school coach having sex with a student,

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Speaker 1: much less her daughter's teen boyfriend. To just to put

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Speaker 1: the icing on the poisonous cake. I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: so wrong on so many different levels. And first of all,

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Speaker 1: I've got an all star panel to make sense of this.

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Speaker 1: But to Fran Longwell, former Deputy States Attorney in Calvert County,

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Speaker 1: former Assistant States Attorney Prince George County specializing and sexophone

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Speaker 1: offenses and homicide, first of all, let's don't call it

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Speaker 1: having sex, because it's not having sex. If you're under

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Speaker 1: a certain age, then that is statutory rape period because

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Speaker 1: fran maybe you can explain it better than me, but

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Speaker 1: better than I can. But miners, they can't go buy

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Speaker 1: a car, They cannot buy alcohol or cigarettes at the

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Speaker 1: corner store because they are under age. They don't have,

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Speaker 1: under the law, mental capacity to enter into contracts. But

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Speaker 1: I can tell you this, My son and daughter I

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Speaker 1: think are have better manners and are smarter than a

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Speaker 1: lot of people that went to law school with me.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not saying they don't have intellect. I'm saying

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Speaker 1: the law says they don't have the intellect or capacity

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Speaker 1: to enter into a contract. So if I can't go

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Speaker 1: buy a pack of cigarettes or a six pack of beer,

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Speaker 1: I certainly cannot enter into a sex relationship with an

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Speaker 1: adult friend. That's exactly true, Nancy and Maryland. Sixteen is

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Speaker 1: the age of majority for sexual offenses, and this young

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Speaker 1: man was sixteen when she started. However, I believe the

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Speaker 1: school has a policy, which they should that teachers cannot

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Speaker 1: interact with students. So that's how they got her on it. Well,

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Speaker 1: you sure are putting perfume on the pig to be

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Speaker 1: a former prosecutor interact with a student. I hardly think

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Speaker 1: having full out sex with a teen boy while you're

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Speaker 1: watching soccer on TV. Is what did you just say? Interaction? Well, okay,

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Speaker 1: and then she would pick him up at school at

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Speaker 1: lunch and take him back to her home and have

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Speaker 1: sex with him. And he says it's over three hundred times.

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Speaker 1: So if this is the most outrageous ones I've heard,

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Speaker 1: you know what's concerning me now that you've put another

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Speaker 1: nightmare in my head. Thank you very much, Fran long

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Speaker 1: Well for doing that. Because at the Twins school, when

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Speaker 1: they get to I think the tenth degrade, they can

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Speaker 1: leave campus. They can walk off campus because there's some

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Speaker 1: shops and restaurants like a McDonald's and a taco stand,

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Speaker 1: and there's a bunch of food trucks that circle up

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Speaker 1: not far from their school. They can walk off campus

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Speaker 1: for that whatever it is, forty minute or fifty minute period,

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Speaker 1: as long as they're back for their next class. Now

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Speaker 1: I have to worry about this because you know, let

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Speaker 1: me go to Tom ferguson Reporter Fox twenty five ko

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Speaker 1: KH there in Oklahoma. I'd like to say, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: all at Oklahoma. It all happens there. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I know from prosecuting for so many years, Tom Ferguson,

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Speaker 1: It happens everywhere. But Tom Ferguson, just give me some

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Speaker 1: of the facts. Who is this woman, Oklahoma cheerleading coach

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Speaker 1: Jennifer Hawkins. Now she has a daughter that was actually

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Speaker 1: dating the victim, Nancy. That's correct, that's how Jennifer and

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Speaker 1: the victim met. You know what, Tom Ferguson. I know

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Speaker 1: you're used to just giving the news, but crime Stories

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Speaker 1: is not like that, and everybody else, Well, why do

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Speaker 1: I have to keep telling you guys this? This is

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Speaker 1: not high tea at Windsor Castle with King Charles and

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Speaker 1: Camilla jump in just what you just said, Tom Ferguson, Okay,

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Speaker 1: say that one more time. Oh of course, that's right.

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Speaker 1: You know they according to court records, you know, the

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Speaker 1: two met through the daughter, which is That's it. That's

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Speaker 1: what Tom Ferguson Fox twenty five kokh Hold on, Tom,

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Speaker 1: because I'll totally forget this thought. Scott Johnson with me

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Speaker 1: Forensic Psychologists Specializing and Addressing sex Predators as professor or

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Speaker 1: Florida Gulf Coast University, and you can find him at

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Speaker 1: Forensic Consultation dot Org. Right there, Tom Ferguson is telling

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Speaker 1: us the way this cheerleading coach mom meets the boy

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Speaker 1: victim is through her daughter. You know what, when my

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Speaker 1: daughter and son and or son have friends over, I

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Speaker 1: cannot even imagine looking at one of them in a

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Speaker 1: sexual way. That's just well, I just can't even think

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Speaker 1: about that. They look like to me, they look like children.

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Speaker 1: Of course, my son is six to five, if he

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Speaker 1: didn't already know that, but his friends are not six

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Speaker 1: to five. Some of them are. To me, they all

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Speaker 1: look like their twelve. And I just want to like

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Speaker 1: hug him and give him a sandwich or something to eat.

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Speaker 1: And you know, if they are outside, I mean a

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Speaker 1: nervous writer, they're going to fall off the trampoline. I

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Speaker 1: then that's how I think of them. What kind of

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Speaker 1: mine looks at her daughter's boyfriend who's a teen and goes, wow,

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Speaker 1: he's hot. I don't get it right, So she has

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Speaker 1: a at least some degree of sexual attraction obviously the

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Speaker 1: adolescents that should have been directed toward adults. But she's

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Speaker 1: also okay, in wait a minute, just say, you know

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Speaker 1: they're coming in my own going quit making faces. I'm

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Speaker 1: trying not to make faces, Okay, But it's just yeah, Okay,

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Speaker 1: go ahead, Scott. So basically, there's a sexual attraction to

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Speaker 1: adolescence that should have again been directed toward adults, but

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Speaker 1: she's a predator, and that she also takes advantage of

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Speaker 1: the situation with her daughter to move in on the

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Speaker 1: mail I eat the daughter's boyfriend. But that also speaks

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Speaker 1: to psychopathic traits because she really just doesn't care about

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Speaker 1: the ramifications back on her daughter or on this boy,

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Speaker 1: or of getting caught with this. Do you remember, I

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Speaker 1: guess in grammar school it started with me where the

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Speaker 1: teacher diagrams a sentence and there was a straight line

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Speaker 1: and all these off sheets with the subject in the

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Speaker 1: verb and the adjective and blah blah blah. I had

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Speaker 1: to just do that for everything you just said, Scott Johnson,

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Speaker 1: I'm just a trial lawyer, kid, you please, dummy down.

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Speaker 1: I can't even take the notes fast enough. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: tried to adolescence. My first is isn't there a name

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Speaker 1: for that? Not pedophilia, but someone attracted to what's the name.

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Speaker 1: It's emophelia e phe beal whoa what what let's call it? No?

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Speaker 1: I can't even say emmophilia evo phelia eva and he

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Speaker 1: is attraction to an adolescent. Yeah, so, well, at least

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Speaker 1: a primary sexual attraction to adolescents, because most of us

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Speaker 1: still have some attractive to adolescents because they resemble adults. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I must be like completely numb by the time I

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Speaker 1: take care of two guinea pigs, one cat, one dog,

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Speaker 1: two twins again one a six five and hungry ninety

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Speaker 1: one year old mom and my husband. The last thing

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Speaker 1: that would cross my mind is any sex attraction to

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Speaker 1: an adolescent. Emophilia. No, I don't think I even have

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Speaker 1: a tiny bit of that. Oh okay, Jackie spelling it

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Speaker 1: for me. You know, I know you had to google that.

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Speaker 1: Don't act like you. Okay, she's admitting you did not

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Speaker 1: know that. Ephe b A said brother. Oh philia. F aphilia, okay, right,

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Speaker 1: f aphilia. Guy, So there is a name for specifically

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Speaker 1: that I always think of pedophile or pedophilia, but I

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Speaker 1: had a feeling there might be something specifically when you

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Speaker 1: have an attraction to an analyssent. Then you said she's

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Speaker 1: a predator. Then you said that she had was not

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Speaker 1: concerned at all about the ramifications of her own daughter.

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Speaker 1: You know, we got invited to go have dinner with

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Speaker 1: the twins middle school principal who has started her own school.

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Speaker 1: And the first thing I thought, well, what are the

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Speaker 1: twins going to eat when I'm out to dinner. So

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Speaker 1: in this case, she is not thinking what is this

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Speaker 1: going to do to my daughter? Time Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: Back to Tom Ferguson Fox twenty five, Ko, kh, let's

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Speaker 1: try it again. Some jerk interrupted you and went off

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Speaker 1: on a tangent. Oh it was me, Sorry, go ahead,

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Speaker 1: Tom Ferguson, No, Yeah, Well, what's really crazy about the situation,

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Speaker 1: I think is the only reason this was illegal was

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Speaker 1: because the student and the coach were in the same

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Speaker 1: school district. You know, the age to consent Oklahoma being sixteen.

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Speaker 1: If the suspect year had been a coach at Oklahoma

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Speaker 1: City Public Schools, for example, you know, this would have

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Speaker 1: been perfectly fine under the law. And you know that's

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Speaker 1: where the prosecution is focusing at their kison is when

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Speaker 1: he was a student in the district. He left the

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Speaker 1: district in twenty nineteen, but the relationship continued until twenty

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Speaker 1: You but you know the Keith ends in twenty eighteen

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Speaker 1: when he left the district. Anna Sonoda, child grooming expert,

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Speaker 1: clinical social worker, author of dut Duck Groom. That's a

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Speaker 1: good title, Duck Duck Grim Understanding how a child becomes

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Speaker 1: a target, and you can find her at Anna Sota

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Speaker 1: dot com. Anna tom Ferguson is a very well respected

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Speaker 1: investigative reporter. He's at a great station, Kokh, Oklahoma. But

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Speaker 1: everything he just said is BS. Now that's a technical

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Speaker 1: legal term. A lot of you may not know what

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Speaker 1: that means in the Latin aspect, but Tom Ferguson sadly

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Speaker 1: is reporting the truth. The fact that he's a teen

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Speaker 1: age sixteen and she's a forty five year old cheerleading

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Speaker 1: coach gunning for her daughter's under age boyfriend. That's not

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Speaker 1: the problem, because to me, that's the problem he's saying,

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Speaker 1: and he's right, by the way that in his jurisdiction,

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Speaker 1: the problem under the law is she works for the

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Speaker 1: school district and he's a student. Help me, please, absolutely, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: So one of the components that I think we need

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Speaker 1: to get back to is not why these people do it,

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Speaker 1: but how they do it. Because if we're going to

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Speaker 1: get our kids protected and keep our communities in our

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Speaker 1: schools safe, we need to know how grooming works, what

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Speaker 1: it looks like, how to observe it, and how to

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Speaker 1: stop it, because all along the way in this case

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Speaker 1: there were examples of how intentional, incremental, and observable. This

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Speaker 1: was lunch dates. He was taken off campus. Aren't their

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Speaker 1: cameras on campuses nowadays? Nobody saw that pattern the idea

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Speaker 1: that when we're looking at child sex abuse, eighty two

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Speaker 1: percent of the time it happens in the home of

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Speaker 1: the victim or the home of the predator. She was

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Speaker 1: consistently removing him from peers and taking him off campus

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Speaker 1: in order to get that hands on access. Wow, you're

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Speaker 1: super smart, you know that. Anna Sonoda joining me child

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Speaker 1: grimmy expert author of Duck Groom, understanding how a child

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Speaker 1: becomes a target. She's at Annasoda dot com. You threw

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Speaker 1: out a stat and I want to remember that eighty

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Speaker 1: two percent of the time that a child sex attack occurs,

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Speaker 1: it's within one of the homes. Yes, ma'am. It's either

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Speaker 1: in the home of the victim or the home of

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Speaker 1: the predator. So we have examples all throughout this case

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Speaker 1: of how the first incident occurred at her home and

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Speaker 1: then repetitively she's taking him off campus. These weren't observed

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Speaker 1: hands on incidents at school. These were events that were

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Speaker 1: happening because she had access and she had available space,

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Speaker 1: the two key ingredients to successful child abuse. If somebody

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Speaker 1: had just been paying attention to this pattern of behavior

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Speaker 1: of removing him from campus, with the same person getting

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Speaker 1: into his vehicle and asking aloud, questioning that pattern, we

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Speaker 1: could have saved this boy. I'm trying to take in

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Speaker 1: everything that Anna Sinoda has just said. Hey, Dan Scott

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Speaker 1: with me former La County Sheriff sergeant, and there's never

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Speaker 1: a lot of business in LA twenty six years with

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Speaker 1: Special Victims Bureau specializing in child to be is Dan Scott.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna get to more of what happened here. But you,

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Speaker 1: like me, I think have seen a lot of male pedophiles,

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Speaker 1: a lot of male sex offenders, a lot the ying yang,

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Speaker 1: but you don't always typically see a female sex offender exactly.

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Speaker 1: It's more than ten to one. But I have had

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Speaker 1: cases just like this with a female perpetrator embedded in

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Speaker 1: the school. Most of them they're married and they put

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Speaker 1: on an air of a normal you know, fit in

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Speaker 1: with the group. As Anna said, somebody saw this. I

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Speaker 1: guarantee they did. Many other teachers or staff members saw

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Speaker 1: her sneaking off campus, saw her picking him up around

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Speaker 1: the corner, whatever her routine was, and they kept their

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Speaker 1: mouth closed. If it was a male teacher. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: was just going to say Dan that since it's a

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Speaker 1: female predator, they may have actually seen it and not

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Speaker 1: thought anything of it. And even if they did think

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Speaker 1: something and they were suspicious, they're less apt to speak

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Speaker 1: up with a male suspect. We're more tuned into them

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Speaker 1: being predators, so they'll report it because they are more

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Speaker 1: often predators, like ten times, and Jackie here is pointing

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Speaker 1: out that also some people that are familiar with the

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Speaker 1: boy know that he's dating her daughter and would think

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Speaker 1: you know nothing of it that you know they know

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Speaker 1: each other, Like if I'm in the car with one

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Speaker 1: of my son's friends, probably nobody would think a thing

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Speaker 1: of it. Hold on, I'm just thinking through what you

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Speaker 1: just said. Oh yeah, thank goodness, we have a shrink

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Speaker 1: because there's the child abuse angle, but there is also

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Speaker 1: the aspect of doing that to your daughter. Anyway, guys,

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Speaker 1: take a listen now to our friends at kfo R

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Speaker 1: Jennifer Hawkins was a More public school's cheer coach for

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Speaker 1: several years. In that time, she allegedly had sex with

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Speaker 1: a Southmore sophomore. That former student saying they had sex

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Speaker 1: more than three hundred times at her home. He didn't

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Speaker 1: have a normal school experience because she was able to

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Speaker 1: exercise that control over him. Forty five year old Jennifer Hawkins,

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Speaker 1: who once coach cheer at Westmore High and Brinx Junior High,

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Speaker 1: was arrested Wednesday on charges of sexual battery and second

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Speaker 1: degree reap. And I'm thinking back when that reporter said

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Speaker 1: a normal school experience. Let me circle back to Tom

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Speaker 1: Ferguson joining us from Fox twenty five KKH. I look

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Speaker 1: back on high school and I specifically remember working alone

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Speaker 1: after school with my Spanish teacher, Senor Petz, and I mean,

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Speaker 1: it would never have crossed anybody's mind that he could

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Speaker 1: have been a sex petitor. Of course he was not.

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Speaker 1: He was wonderful. And then with my female teacher, often

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Speaker 1: working on my French teacher, my damn Webber. I just

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Speaker 1: it's hard for me to take this in. Can you

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Speaker 1: tell me, Tom Ferguson, about the other layer of this

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Speaker 1: three hundred times full out sex with a student and

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Speaker 1: neither the daughter noticed or anyone else. How did that happen?

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Speaker 1: Tom Right? I mean, I think we're all kind of

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Speaker 1: asking that question right now. And you know, I think

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Speaker 1: you know, part of this that we have touched on

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Speaker 1: here that's also really important is, you know, the victim

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Speaker 1: told police that Hawkins was controlling and manipulative, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it's you know, difficult to imagine the situation that must

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Speaker 1: have been going through his mind when almost every day

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Speaker 1: during his sophomore junior years of high school, this coach

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Speaker 1: was picking him up from lunch and going to her

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Speaker 1: home to you know, allegedly you have sex. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that must have just been just such a difficult situation

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Speaker 1: to deal with, and especially with the you know, the

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Speaker 1: power dam to make a play with a much older

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Speaker 1: coach in the district, you know, I mean, it's it's

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Speaker 1: hard to wrap your head around. O mean, what were

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Speaker 1: the school rules about leaving campus? Um? You know, we

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Speaker 1: haven't got much from the school on that, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's definitely good follow up question, but I think

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Speaker 1: that's another angle to investiate here, is you know, more

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Speaker 1: public schools, will y'all be changing policies, you know, based

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Speaker 1: on this situation. Well, they certainly need to consider it.

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Speaker 1: And I want you to get a glimpse into this

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Speaker 1: female predator's frame of mind. Take a listen to Keiley Olivas.

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Speaker 1: While sitting in Hawkins's living room and watching a soccer game,

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Speaker 1: she allegedly performed a sexual act on him, telling him

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Speaker 1: quote he would remember that soccer match for the rest

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Speaker 1: of his life. The relationship continued after that, the two

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Speaker 1: meeting during school lunch almost every day to have sex.

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Speaker 1: This victim came forward after he was finally able to

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Speaker 1: move away from this individual and realize that what had

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Speaker 1: gone on was wrong. More public schools confirmed. Hawkins has

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Speaker 1: not worked for the district since the end of January.

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Speaker 1: The Cleveland County District Attorney's office is hoping there are

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Speaker 1: no other victims. But it wouldn't be uncommon. It wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be uncommon. And she said that very calmly. Yeah, that happens.

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Speaker 1: Still flabber asked that this is not a crime in

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Speaker 1: a sense that it's sex with a teen boy. But

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Speaker 1: what fran Longwell is telling me again, fran Longwell, the

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Speaker 1: way they're approaching it in Oklahoma is that it's against

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Speaker 1: the law to have sex relations of any type if

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Speaker 1: you are working in the school system, right, and if

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Speaker 1: it's a student, that's the way their laws reading back

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Speaker 1: to her frame of mind. And I want to go

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Speaker 1: to Anna Sonoda on this as well as Scott Johnson. Anna.

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Speaker 1: So the first time that this crime was committed on

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Speaker 1: this teen boy, the perp says, well, that's a soccer match,

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Speaker 1: you'll remember the rest of your life. She's making light

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Speaker 1: of this, she's making a snide remark. She's acting like

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Speaker 1: it's acceptable and okay. Absolutely, And one of the things

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Speaker 1: about grooming that's a hallmark is that it's intentional, it's incremental,

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Speaker 1: and its observable. There's a reason that she was at

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Speaker 1: her own private home during that game, and that she

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Speaker 1: used that time where nobody else was looking, in order

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Speaker 1: to attempt her first hands on incident. I'll also say

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Speaker 1: that the perverse courtship that is grooming in order to

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Speaker 1: gain that access in space had to have been put

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Speaker 1: down before the soccer game at her home. He felt

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Speaker 1: comfortable enough to go to her home. He was not

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Speaker 1: concerned about any predation at that time. But we have

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Speaker 1: a very distorted perception of female predators in this country

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Speaker 1: with male victims, it seems as if it's more of

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Speaker 1: a rite of passage and not predation, which it is.

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Speaker 1: And we know that female predators are underreported, under arrested,

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Speaker 1: and under convicted. So in this case, we have an

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Speaker 1: opportunity in Oklahoma to highlight the perverse courtship that is

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Speaker 1: grooming and how all along the way that boy was

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Speaker 1: isolated from his peers, and that she actually made herself

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Speaker 1: more of appeared to him rather than being the adult

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Speaker 1: that we all expected her to be. Scott Johnson for

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Speaker 1: ZIC Psychologists joining us out of Minnesota and Professor Scott,

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Speaker 1: what do you make of this woman, Jennifer Hawkins in

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Speaker 1: her forties, old enough to know better, kind of making

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Speaker 1: a sex joke? Wow, I guess that's a soccer gaming

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Speaker 1: You'll never forget. I just want to just just twist

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Speaker 1: her little head off. What I really see her as,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you think about typologies as sex offenders

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Speaker 1: is I would call her a seductor child molester. Now

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Speaker 1: forget the fact that I'm trying to write notes right now, right, okay,

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Speaker 1: so you don't have to go at ninety mph. Seductor

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Speaker 1: a child molester. Okay, go ahead, right, And so even

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Speaker 1: though he's in his team's not under twelve, I'd still

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Speaker 1: call him that typology because she believed it was normal

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Speaker 1: and an oldkay thing to do. And as Anna pointed out,

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Speaker 1: you know, she's normalizing the contact between them, and very

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Speaker 1: specifically in the police report, I noted that she was

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Speaker 1: downplaying what others thought about it, which meant she didn't

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Speaker 1: care that others knew about it, but she was counting

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Speaker 1: how others opinions might play by saying, it's just a

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Speaker 1: big deal. Sometimes people just don't like what we do,

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Speaker 1: but what we do is okay. So in her mind

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Speaker 1: it was okay to have sex with a minor. She's

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Speaker 1: a sexual predator, she's no dangerous in my professional opinion,

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Speaker 1: and a male. We keep downplaying the seriousness of the

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Speaker 1: female offender when in fact the impact on the victim

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Speaker 1: is the same and so or maybe worse, because people

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Speaker 1: don't really want to believe him that it was traumatizing

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Speaker 1: what in fact it was. So she really just has

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Speaker 1: psychopathic traits. She does what she does. She doesn't care

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Speaker 1: about the outcome on her daughter, the victim, or how

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Speaker 1: even her pears are going to look at this, and

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Speaker 1: the other side of this, which I heard people comment on,

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Speaker 1: is you know, you know, we know better when we're

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Speaker 1: in a teaching profession than to engage in a sexual

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Speaker 1: relationship with our students, regardless of the law. There's ethics,

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Speaker 1: and so she made a very predatory, deliberate decision and

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Speaker 1: continued it out over several years to engage in sexual abuse, rape, etc.

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Speaker 1: Of this young man. What exactly is a as you

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Speaker 1: describe the typology a seductor child molester. A seductor believes,

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Speaker 1: number one, it's appropriate to be sexual with children. It's

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Speaker 1: our obligation to help children, as Freud might have said,

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Speaker 1: sexually actualize. And so they actually bond with their victims.

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Speaker 1: They try not to cause any physical harm because they're

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Speaker 1: constantly grooming and introducing different sex acts over time so

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Speaker 1: as not to create significant fear or anxiety and the victim,

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Speaker 1: which typically, by the way, in my opinion, usually it

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Speaker 1: takes five to eight years for a victim to come

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Speaker 1: forward because of all the manipulation that's happened, and in

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Speaker 1: this case it was a little over five years, and

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Speaker 1: so it takes that long for a victim to start

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Speaker 1: sorting out, this was really wrong, speaking manipulation, take a

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Speaker 1: listen to Kokh. According to court records, Hawkins would take

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Speaker 1: the victim to her home in Oklahoma City. The victim

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Speaker 1: reported Hawkins was quote manipulative in controlling, and that the

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Speaker 1: two had sex over three hundred times. There's been a

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Speaker 1: lot of impact on this victim, in particular because of

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Speaker 1: the nature of this relationship, because it was so controlling

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Speaker 1: and his high school, his entire high school time frame

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Speaker 1: where he should have been a student and should have

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Speaker 1: been enjoying being a student, was in a relationship with

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Speaker 1: her where she limited his friends and his interactions with others.

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Speaker 1: Tom Ferguson joining us from KOKH. Where would the daughter

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Speaker 1: be her teen daughter when all this is happening. Just

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Speaker 1: thinking about just the dynamics at play here and how

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Speaker 1: this impacted both hawkins family but also the victims family.

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Speaker 1: I know just must have been incredibly difficult for everyone

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Speaker 1: involved to just be like seeing and be aware of.

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Speaker 1: But did I guess this was happening? The sex attacks

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Speaker 1: were happening mostly during the day at the lunch break,

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Speaker 1: so the daughter would presumably be at school right right,

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Speaker 1: And you know that was certainly the case at the beginning,

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Speaker 1: and then you know, moving in afterwards, you know, after

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Speaker 1: you know he had left the district and everything just

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Speaker 1: it must have been I imagine weird for the daughter,

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Speaker 1: certainly the pair meeting through Hawker's daughter, who the victim

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Speaker 1: dated from an unspecified time for an unspecified time and

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Speaker 1: knew from school. Okay, I can't even imagine what damage

428
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 1: that would do to the daughter when she finds out

429
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: her mother is sleeping with her teen boyfriend. Take listen

430
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: to this. Jennifer Austen explained that state law prohibits students

431
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: and district employees from having sexual relationships, including when the

432
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: student reaches the age of consent at school, consent gets

433
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: removed from the equation. A lot of the sexual acts

434
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 1: that took place, she would have him come home for

435
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: school from school at lunch to her home and have

436
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 1: the sex relationship at home while her daughter and her

437
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: family were at worker at school. Tom Ferguson, how did

438
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 1: the cheerleading coach respond when she was first confronted with

439
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: accusations she had sex with a student, a teen boy right,

440
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: apparently you know in the police importance says, you know,

441
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: at first she denied this inappropriate relationship. And then in

442
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,959
Speaker 1: the afterwords, she you know, broke down, and you know,

443
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: these authorities were asking her, you know, how many times

444
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: did this happen? And you know she just repeated like,

445
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:57,959
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. Um.

446
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: And so, you know, being fronted with this, I mean,

447
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: I mean it's I don't even know. Like I can

448
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,719
Speaker 1: imagine being in the room. Can you imagine you know,

449
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: going off to a chair coins and saying, hey, we

450
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: have this information, Like what do you say about this?

451
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: It just must have been, you know, just quite the situation,

452
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: talking about what the daughter thinks, what about her husband?

453
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut ten k WT. The

454
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: prosecutors charged forty five year old Jennifer Hawkins with second

455
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: degree rape and sexual battery. The mother and wife was

456
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: a long time cheerleading coach at Westmore High School, Brink

457
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: Middle School, and the University of Central Oklahoma. Police were

458
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: notified in January of the alleged sexual misconduct between Hawkins

459
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: and the victim. Police say the victim sent a detailed

460
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: letter to more public school officials about his five year

461
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: long sexual relationship with Hawkins. These documents say this was

462
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: a year's long relationship between a former student and a

463
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: district employee. Situations like this can have lasting impacts on victims.

464
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: Forty five year old Jennifer Hawkins arrested and booked into

465
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: the Cleveland County Detention Center. According to CORE documents, Hawkins

466
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: was a cheer coach at Westmore High School in Brink

467
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: Junior High. The victim a now former Southmore student. Time

468
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. Tom Ferguson, Kokh, Tom again, thank

469
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: you so much for being with us, because you really

470
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: cracked this case wide open. What about her husband? What's

471
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: become of him? I wish I had an answer to that,

472
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: but I don't have any details on husband. I didn't

473
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: even realize that she was married. Honestly, you're kidding. So

474
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: that seems like he was not part of this equation

475
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: at all. Nobody even is thinking about the husband. Yeah,

476
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: I didn't even realize that. Yeah, I guess it must

477
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: have been certainly difficult for him, though. I mean, yeah,

478
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: I guess fran Longwell joining us former Deputy States attorney.

479
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: So often the spouse refuses to believe that anything untoward

480
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: has happened. I agree. I think that's that is it.

481
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: Um there was. I don't know if you recall this case.

482
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: There was a case in my where Jason Myers, he

483
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: was forty seven, had sex with a seventeen year old

484
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: victim three times. He was her creative writing teacher. He

485
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: was married with a pregnant wife, three kids, and then

486
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: he got sentenced to life in Florida, which he should have.

487
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: But I you know, I've seen it over and over

488
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: where the spouses don't want to recognize, even in ysical

489
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 1: child abuse, they don't want to really accept the fact

490
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: that that their partners doing that to their child, you know,

491
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: trying to figure out the effect this would have on

492
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: a marriage, on a family to you, Scott Johns and

493
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: forensic psychologists joining us, what about it? Scott, Well, certainly

494
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: it would likely erode and destroy the marriage. I mean,

495
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: to have something so devastating happened, and perhaps the husband

496
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,239
Speaker 1: had no idea this was going on, but they may

497
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: have had little inklings something was going on but didn't

498
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: quite know what to make of it. So the relationship

499
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: between her and her daughter, her and her husband, et cetera,

500
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: are done. I mean, how do you trust again? Plus

501
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: the shame that she brought on them, that was just

502
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: you know, just unexplainably unexpected. I mean, how they how

503
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: to deal with that in a healthy way. I'm not

504
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: even sure therapy helped, but you know so she didn't care,

505
00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: So she had no concern about the impact on anyone,

506
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: and she was just more interested in having her sexual toy.

507
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: If you will, I either victim. It reminds me a

508
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: great deal of Mary Laterno, do you recall her the

509
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: teacher and started having sex with I guess he was

510
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: twelve or thirteen or twelve Billie. He was twelve. She

511
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: was thirty four. And then she went to jail and

512
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: was let out on conditions, one being not to be

513
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,239
Speaker 1: around him, and cops, of course, immediately bust her in

514
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: the car at night, locked in with him having sex.

515
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: I mean it completely tore apart her family. And I

516
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: don't mean just a spouse, but when you have children,

517
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: what do your children think the rest of their lives? Wow,

518
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: mommy was having sex with the twelve year old and

519
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: it ruined our marriage. I don't think there's any coming

520
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: back in the marriage after that. And it brings to

521
00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: mind a friend. I consider him a friend. Owen la Fay.

522
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: We often hear her the wife's name Deborah La Fay

523
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,919
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend, Jesse Palmer, Daily Mail

524
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: and Our Cut thirteen Deborah La Fave Afflorida High School

525
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 1: English teacher who had sex with her fourteen year old student.

526
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: One year later, she played guilty to two counts of

527
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: loot and lascivious behavior involving a minor. The public outcry

528
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: was tremendous twenty four years old at the time, but

529
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: Faive blamed her actions on being bipolar and hypersexualized, claiming

530
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: she had been raped when she was a teen. Mental

531
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: illnesses are real, they could cause good people to do

532
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: bad things. Her attorney famously told the judge she was

533
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: too pretty for prison. In the end, LaFave played guilty

534
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: to loot and lascivious behavior. She was sentenced to just

535
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: three years house arrest, but branded a sex offender. I

536
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: remember Owen going through all of those phases of denial,

537
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 1: rejecting the standing by his wife, until finally he realized

538
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: it had happened. He has moved on in his life now,

539
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: but those scars must last forever and I imagine would

540
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: shape any future relationship. And speaking of future relationship, Scott Johnson,

541
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: what about this young boy's future relationships, well, right, there's

542
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: always going to be adempt in there now toward dating partners,

543
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 1: obviously toward females, because he realizes how he was manipulated

544
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 1: and used, and more importantly, how that shame comes into play,

545
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: because I'm sure he's partially blamed himself for letting it

546
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: go on, and yet he wasn't in a position to

547
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: stop it. No child or adolescent is. And so for

548
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: him to start trusting people and to trust his own sense,

549
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 1: that's going to take a little time. Guys, we can't

550
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 1: even have this discussion without the mention of Debril of

551
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: Faith or Brittany Zamora. Take a list now, friends. At

552
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 1: Inside Edition, shocking new details are emerging about a sixth

553
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: grade teacher accused of having sex with her thirteen year

554
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: old student. Texts allegedly sent to the teen by elementary

555
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: school teacher Brittany Zamora. We're just released by prosecutors. Omglol.

556
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,399
Speaker 1: You're so cute baby. I wish you could have stayed

557
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: after with me, she wrote. He answered me too, I

558
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 1: wish we could just hang out together whenever we wanted.

559
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: Oh baby, I know what you mean. You're all I

560
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: think about you will be my wife one day in

561
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 1: this crazy life. She wrote back, I'll give you whatever

562
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: you want. Baby. The twenty seven year old teacher allegedly

563
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: met the student for sex on four occasions and sent

564
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: him nude selfies. That's four occasions. This woman, the cheerleading

565
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: cousin Jennifer Hawkins, had sex with a minor within the

566
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: same school at least three hundred times. There's more on Zamora.

567
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friends at KP in x

568
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 1: shocking new detail. Zamora rushes to talk to him. She

569
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: started crying naturally, and she said, you know, I don't know, um.

570
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: There the only two things I care about in my life,

571
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: for you know, my husband, in my career. So did

572
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: you did you ever talk to any parents about the rumors?

573
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: I didn't and I didn't I didn't want to blow

574
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: it up. A week after crying to her principle, for Issamore,

575
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: I would ask the boy to sneak out of his

576
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: grandparents while for sex out because while Principal Dickie was

577
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: looking into the matter, so were the boys parents. And

578
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: you hear her husband saying, she started crying naturally. She said,

579
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: all I care about and why for my husband and

580
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 1: my career. Uh, that's after having sex with a student.

581
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: You know, I want to find out what's happening now,

582
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: Tom Ferguson, where does the case stand now? I guess

583
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: the cheerleading coach Jennifer Hawkins Nancy, she's out on bond.

584
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: You know, she posted that on Mar eighth, and she

585
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: has her preliminary hearing set for March twenty eighth. So

586
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,919
Speaker 1: you know, as a local reporter here in Oklahoma City,

587
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to be keeping hind this case for sure.

588
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: So Tom Ferguson, what's the potential sentence? I mean, with

589
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: second degree rape and sex battery Nancy, it'd be one

590
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: to fifteen years in prison plus registration as a sex

591
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: offender for her if she's sound guilty. Now she charged

592
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: with two offenses, second degree rape and sex battery. That

593
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,959
Speaker 1: is correct, two counts, so they could run consecutively, one

594
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: after the other. We saw Judge Newman and the Alex

595
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 1: Murdock case just sentence Alex Smurdock to two consecutive life sentences,

596
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,439
Speaker 1: one to run after the next. So right now she's

597
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: out walking free. The damage done to this young boy,

598
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: to her daughter, to the rest of her family, including

599
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: her husband. That's a life sentence for them. We wait

600
00:38:53,719 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off goodbye friend,