WEBVTT - The Trial [9] 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.160 You're listening to episode nine of Atlanta Monster. There's one 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:06.480 episode left, episode ten. The season finale will come out 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:10.920 next Friday. Today's episode contains graphic content. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:16.520 After writing Sidney Dorsey a letter in prison, he finally 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:17.680 got back to us. 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:25.439 All right, Sidney Dorsey letter, Well, at least you know 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:31.200 what wasn't tampered with because the Georgia State Prison stam interesting. 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:34.880 This is handwritten, which is why it's hard to read. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:37.200 Here's what he said. 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:40.479 I received your letter, and I truly apologize for my 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:44.080 delaym responding to you. Please forgive and charge it to 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:47.800 my head and not my heart. Accordingly, I believe that 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:50.519 there still remains public interest in the Atlanta child murders, 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:53.159 but I don't think that the evidence presented during the 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:58.400 WAYN Williams murder trial proved him guilty or innocent. Unfortunately, 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:01.280 I had no hard evidence there, and I have no 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:05.640 hard evidence now to prove him guilty or innocent. Truly, 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:07.920 if I knew anything that would help close the case. 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:09.679 I would provide it, but I don't. 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:13.520 Finally, if you have specific questions about the case, you 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:16.039 want answered, provide them to me now. We'll do my 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:21.319 best to answer them. Best regards Sidney. Contrary to his 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:24.480 Dateline interview years ago, Dorsey claimed to have no evidence 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:27.320 to prove Wayne's innocence. But what he did say is 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:29.440 that he felt the evidence in trial did not prove 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.600 him innocent or guilty. So what exactly happened during the 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:35.880 trial what convinced a jury that Wayne Williams was a murderer? 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:40.640 I must say, as kind of a preamble to what 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:44.120 I would tell you, is that I did not have 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:48.440 a lot of time for conspiracy theories or aliens with 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:52.240 pressure guns who were killing kids. I never really believed 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:56.880 there was one killer. Wayne couldn't kill anybody. Have you 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:00.840 seen Wayne? These one of those pudgy little guys whose 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:04.680 mom made him practice of piano every afternoon instead of 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.880 coming out and playing ball. One of those kids, and 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.760 you're telling me he's gonna kill a twenty seven year 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:15.240 old convict. Give me a break if you believe that 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:19.560 Wayne Williams killed thirty kids. I mean, I've got a 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.320 little piece of real estate, just a little west of 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.920 West Pismo Beach, California, that you might be interested in. 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:33.360 Sometimes in murder cases, common sense prevails it walks like 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:37.760 a duck. It's probably a duck, and it just didn't 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:42.960 walk like a duck. It was a media frenzy. If 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:46.040 we were to try the Wayne Williams case today, I 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:47.480 can't guarantee you I'd. 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:50.920 Walk that sucker in a heartbeating. 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:55.360 But hindsight, it's always twenty. 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:59.519 Twenty and Atlanta. Another body was discovering today the twenty. 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.600 Third the Police Task Force headquarters. 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.800 There are twenty seven faces on the wall, twenty six murdered, 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:05.600 one missing. 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.160 We do not know the person or persons that are responsible. 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:09.680 Therefore, we do not have the money. 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.919 From Tenner for TV and howstuff works in Atlanta. 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:16.200 Like eleven other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers apparently was 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:17.560 a Sphexa victory Atlanta. 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:20.800 It was unlikely to catch the killer unless he keeps 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:21.519 on killing. 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:24.080 This is Atlanta monster. 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:43.040 Apparently I had some sort of reputation among defense investigators. 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.000 In a period of three years, I had worked twenty 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:51.520 three cases and I lost one, which was Wayne Williams. 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:55.000 This is William north Road, an investigator for will William's 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:55.560 defense team. 0:03:55.760 --> 0:04:00.680 You're Mary, Welcome called and Mary City. You know we 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.840 shook in Usua, Hell and so I went to Atlanta 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:07.600 and it was a zoo. 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:10.880 Most of the preparations for the Wayne Williams trial have 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:13.600 already been completed in just a few hours. Hundreds of 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:15.720 reporters and others interested in the case, we'll be trying 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:17.240 to make their way up to the fourth floor to 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:19.240 get a glimpse of the first day's proceedings. 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:22.400 In his eyes, the biggest obstacle was the sensation of 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:23.320 the trial itself. 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:25.919 More than eight hundred perspective jurors have been summoned for 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.640 the trial. The unusually lodge number was ordered by Judge 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:31.200 Cooper to try to ensure that at least twelve impartial 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:34.039 jurors can be found in this city besieged by publicity 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:36.480 about the murder case. Already, Network made his cruise who 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.080 reserves based on the street outside the courthouse for their 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:42.239 motor homes loaded with electronic equipment and media from across 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:44.640 the country. It made similar plans for coverage of the trial, 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:46.000 which may last two months. 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:50.720 It was the crime of the century before OJ it 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:55.760 was that kind of intense interest. My name is Dale Russell. 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.640 I'm the senior investigative reporter for Fox five News. Here 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:04.320 at Lane, I began my career as a reporter the 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:07.479 very same month of the first murders of the missing 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:12.799 murdered kids, so I have covered this story my entire career. 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:15.720 There were so many journalists that we could not all 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:18.559 get in. We were actually all put in a room 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:19.560 off to the side. 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:22.440 On full side of the courtroom will be reserved for reporters. 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:24.480 The overflow. We'll be able to watch the trial from 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:26.640 a special press room down the hall, and they'll all 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:29.080 be waiting. A few minutes before nine tomorrow morning, when 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:32.600 under extremely tighted security, accused murderer Wayne Williams will be 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:34.720 brought to the Fulden County Courthouse for the first day 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:37.080 of what may prove to be the most celebrated trial 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:39.640 in Atlanta history. 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:46.479 Our entire defense really rested on common sense. There was 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:49.840 no place for that in that courtroom. 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:52.840 The state would like to introduce the evidence to show 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:56.279 the jury a pattern of killings that claims Wayne Williams committed. 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:01.120 Was there a murder is a turn out. There were 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:07.400 five out of thirty. The others were not legal medical murders. 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:10.760 As a defense investigator, one of his main points was 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:12.800 that no one of authority could be one hundred percent 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.039 sure that these murders were actually murders. 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.360 If you start with that premise, how you going to 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:20.400 try a guy for murder. 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:24.400 In his investigation, he found that most causes of death 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:28.160 were unknown, undetermined, or in some other way vague. 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:33.839 One of the counts that Wayne was convicted of, the 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:38.839 original death certificate said undetermined, and then when they charged 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:42.440 Wayne with that murder, the medical examiner went back and 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:44.360 changed it to homicide. 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:48.120 It is not known yet whether pain was strangled or suffocated. 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:52.400 In the absence of the injuries, there are some features 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:53.039 of us fixing it. 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:54.920 Any external marks at all around the. 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:57.080 Neck, no extending locks it on the neck. 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:00.120 You may remember this story from episode of four. The 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.960 medical examiner changed the cause of death for Jimmy ray Payne. 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:07.000 Why because he had a problem. It wasn't a legal 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:12.679 medical murder. And the idea that all these murders quote 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:18.680 unquote stopped happening after Wayne was arrested is enough crap 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:20.080 to for the last c minut. 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.080 According to Northrope, there were way too many cooks in 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:25.760 the kitchen and things were bound to get messy. 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:31.480 So you got this conglomeration of police from God only 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:36.480 knows where, State, local, FBI. You know, they were walking 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:41.200 all over each other. There was no one person out 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:46.440 there killing everybody. You see, here's the problem. If you 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:52.240 take non legal medical murders and you call them murders, 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.560 then all of a sudden, you've got a massacre of 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:59.880 thirty children. These are the murder kids. And of course 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:04.880 the media did everything in their power to sell the 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:09.560 idea that somebody was murdering the children of Atlama. There 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:14.840 were murders five that I know of, but the rest 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:16.120 I don't know. 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.000 Investigators the morning of May twenty second wanted to know 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:26.480 one thing. Why was Wayne Williams driving over a bridge 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:30.320 at three o'clock after stakeout officers heard a loud splash. Well, 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:32.760 according to Williams, he was out looking for the address 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:35.680 of a singer, Cheryl Johnson, who had called him several 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:37.760 days earlier about his talent agency. 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:39.520 It starts off with the bridge. 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:43.040 The bridge testimony was extremely strong. 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:45.959 The state today tried to show the jury that Wayne 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:49.880 Williams frankly lied and that after telling his alibi to investigators, 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:50.520 he tried to. 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:51.600 Cover his tracks. 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:54.880 The defense claims, there's an explanation for everything we heard 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.960 today and that the state didn't explore all the possibilities. 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:02.440 Wayne would have to pick up Jimmy Ray Payne or 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:07.559 Cater and throw him over the bridge rail into the water. 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:12.240 To make that whole scenario come about. Wayne stops on 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:16.120 the bridge. Place is covered with police. Now, maybe some 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.280 of the cadets are asleep. I don't know. 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:22.480 It's bushwa I've been on stakeouts and I can tell 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:25.880 you guys were asleep. I mean, it just happens. But 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:27.720 we don't know that he was asleep. 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.640 Although prosecutors had most of the pieces that night in May, 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:33.720 it's still like the essential part of the puzzle. Someone 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.120 actually seen William's car stopped on the bridge, or better yet, 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:40.400 the suspect throwing a body from the structure. Attorney Welcome 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:43.319 appeared confident that the evidence against her client didn't amount 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:43.720 to much. 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:47.040 The young man who saw the car that had never stopped. 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:48.680 I think what you'd have to pick here is a 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:53.040 man driving with one hand, opening a car without stopping, 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:57.520 and casting one hundred and fifty something pounds over a bridge. 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:02.640 We ran tests on that bridge. 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:05.520 That sound, the defense claims, is the key to their proof. 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.520 Police recruit Bob Campbell, part of the stakeout team, says 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:11.920 William's card did not make that sound, indicating the vehicle 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:12.800 was traveling. 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:13.720 At a slow rate of speed. 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.600 So on the stand was this sound expert who conducted 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.080 tests for the defense at the bridge this week. 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:24.560 The conclusion of the expert was Wayne didn't stop, and 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:26.280 no one saw Wayne stop. 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:30.160 Testimony about the clankety clank a metal expansion joint makes 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:31.400 when a car rolls over it. 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:32.800 The reason he didn't. 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:35.520 Hear the car attorney's claim is because the recruit was 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:36.360 fast asleep. 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.679 Pulling from his notes in his memory, Dale recounted the 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:40.559 bridge testimony. 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:45.360 The bridge testimony alone was extremely powerful. I just think 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:47.480 a Wayne was stopped by the bridge, or you stopped 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.080 near the bridge. But when you go through that testimony 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:53.800 point by point, it's riveting. This is his testimony. 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:54.360 Campbell. 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:57.760 Hears a splash. He grabs his flashlight and a baton 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:02.439 he grabs for self defense. He puts the flashlight on 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:06.040 the river and sees big waves coming up on the shore. 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:10.280 He flashes the light up to the bridge, nothing back 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:13.960 down to the river, watching the waves subside, flashes it 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.800 up a second time. Now, think of the timing that 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:19.360 we're talking about here. You hear the splash, you get up, 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:21.920 you get your flashlight, you're looking. This is what he 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:26.040 testified to The lights came on and the car began 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:26.720 to move. 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.360 While looking up at the bridge, he saw lights go 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:33.760 on after the splash. Then they moved away slowly. That 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:37.319 testimony supported his partner's claim that the car Williams was 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:41.760 driving approached the bridge very slowly and without headlights simultaneously. 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:45.320 I have the words simultaneously written in my trial notes. 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.600 So the lights were off when the splash hit the water. 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:51.679 The Williams and his defense team refuted this version of 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:52.160 the story. 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.120 Williams bluntly stated the police version of the now famous 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:58.360 bridge incident was wrong, a lie. He claimed he wasn't 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:01.120 driving slow, that he didn't turn around in a parking 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:03.360 lot next to the bridge, that he did not throw 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:04.360 anything into the river. 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:07.360 But, according to Northrope. 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:14.360 Wrong place, wrong time, he was convenient, a cynical establishment 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:25.520 just scooped him right up and said you're our boy. 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:27.480 It all came down to fibers. 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:32.000 These are called fiber scopes. Criminologists at the State Crime 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:35.800 Lab use them to compare and match fibers, rope or fabric, 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:39.520 for instance, from different sources. Now workers there have matched 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:43.080 fibers from task force evidence to make the first official 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.479 correlation between the murders of at least two of Atlanta's 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:47.880 fifteen murdered children. 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.520 To tell you the truth, it scared me. I didn't 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:55.600 have any experience with fibers. I was afraid of it. 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:57.080 I was afraid of the evidence. 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.400 We've come up with some physical evidence that's common to 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:02.800 at least two with the bodies, and it falls into 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:03.800 the fiber category. 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:06.800 People in the world need to know where somebody has 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:09.400 been from the dust on their clothes, of the soil 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:13.040 on their shoe, and the geological mapp will have a regional, 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.839 say unconsolidated sediment, but we can point to one spot 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:17.800 and say this is what the soil was like at 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:21.760 that point. So, for example, back there is the entire Punjab, 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:23.080 for example in Pakistan. 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:25.079 How'd y'all collect all that? 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:25.480 How long? 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:25.920 This day? 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:29.920 My lifetime? This is a lifetime's work. This is sand 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:31.360 and soil from all over the world. 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:35.200 We visited palin It at his lab micro Trace outside 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:38.280 of Chicago. The walls were covered with small shelves home 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:42.040 to hundreds of bottles holding sand, dirt and fibers from 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:43.560 all over the world, because. 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:47.720 There are all fibers from their manufacture and the world. Practically, 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.040 I was eight years old and at my first microscope, 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:57.680 I had my own lamb. So I've been doing it 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:05.480 for sixty four years looking through microscopes, senior research microscopist, 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:11.160 I guess president of the company, Like, yeah, lawyers can't 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:17.080 say that, but it's microscopist and it comes from microscopy, chemistry, physics, biology, 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.160 those things are all fundamental. There would be no forensic 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:24.120 science if you didn't have those sciences. So forensic science 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:26.680 one of the basics of forensic science. One of our 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:28.920 laws that we can call our own is called Lekard's 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:35.360 exchange principle. Edwin Lecard was a French scientist. He formulated 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.440 a principle based on the analysis of dusk. He promulgated 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:42.800 this theory briefly, It states that whenever two objects come 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.160 in contact, there's always a transfer of material. 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:46.360 Always. 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.760 So let's say, for example, all of a sudden, for 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:51.880 some reason, you make me mad and I jump on 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:55.200 you and start attacking you, and we're never in contact again. 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:59.440 But we were you file charges against me for attacking you, 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:02.320 and you've sai your sweater, so we get your sweater 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:04.800 and we get my sweer. So well, are both black 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:08.240 sweaters a big deal? Well, if you look at the 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.040 fibers from your sweater and my swear, they're going to 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:19.680 turn out to be different. Almost certainly. Almost every day 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:23.040 of my life I looked through microscope for one reason 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:26.440 or another. Every time I go somewhere, or friends of 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:30.840 mine go somewhere, colleagues or people I've had from places 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.400 in other parts of the world, I ask them where 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:35.400 they are, where they live, if they've gone there to 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:39.000 come back, that they vacuum their clothing for us. And 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:42.000 so there's one of those cabinets you saw on the lab. 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:45.200 It's just filled with these little vacuum cassettes with dust. 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:47.280 But those are mixtures of things for us to analyze 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:49.320 and do research on it. We have pure materials, so 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:54.480 we have almost all the known synthetic fibers from different manufacturers, 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:57.280 so we have reference material to work from. If your 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:03.200 business is like ours, is identifying unknown substances. Ultimate goal 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.280 or the ultimate proof of an identification is to compare 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:07.760 it to authentic material. 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:10.960 Skip explained the role of fiber analyst in legal cases. 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:14.520 The police who are there to investigate materials. They feel 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:17.520 they've got enough evidence that somebody should be brought upon charges. 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:20.800 Someone's accused, you've got a defense attorney who's higher than 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:23.720 under the belief that his client is innocent in fact 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.520 under our system here, and the defense attorney should do 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:30.280 everything they can to help prove his case. So their 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:34.320 advocates to their clients, the district attorney as the state 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:37.720 as their client. They're an advocate for their position, the 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:40.920 position of the police. There is a jury in most trials. 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:44.120 Their job is to listen objectively to the evidence. That's 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.800 why a jury is selected carefully. In all this, the 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:50.280 forensic scientist comes that our job is supposed to be 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:54.440 to help get to the truth. We can, certainly in 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:58.160 most cases provide facts. If somebody thinks it's not a fact, 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:00.400 they can try and prove that wrong. We go to 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:02.600 great lengths to make sure that something we present as 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:04.680 a fact is though, so it can't be proven wrong 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.840 because we don't have an axe to grind. We're just 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.159 there trying to make sure that the jury hears us 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.399 and what the likely explanations are, and if it's not 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.000 like the explanation, there's something else, then we can comment 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:18.920 on it, you know, we will. You know, I don't 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:23.359 think much about the human players in these cases. It 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:27.560 probably sounds odd to people because if you watch detective 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.520 shows and things, they're always analyzing motives, and they're analyzing, 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:35.080 you know, going back in the person's past and so forth. Honestly, 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:37.160 I would be more interested in looking at the dust 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:39.879 vacuum from his clothing than I would be, you know, 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:42.679 and never talking to him. We're questioning him. If you 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:44.840 were to bring me here and ask me a look 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:46.200 and tell you everything I could, I would be able 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:47.879 to tell you some things. Then you might actually be 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:51.720 amazed about what you see. The Lanchell murders are a 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:54.560 great example of microscopic trace evidents. 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:57.520 Skip was involved in the Atlanta Chilo murders case. One 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.240 of his former students, Larry Peterson, was working on the 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.160 case and he called him up for assistance. 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:04.320 I remember I got the first call from Larry asked 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.320 me if I could come down to Atlanta. He was 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:11.160 as enthusiastic, as intelligent as scientists, as a young man 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:14.040 as you would want to meet. She's He's also a 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:18.080 good person. Sometimes you meet people who are talented and 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:20.639 you know they're not nice people, and Larry's just one 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:25.560 of these easy going guys who's innate kindness. We could 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:28.200 lead people to believe that he's not as bright. 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:28.480 As he is. 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:32.080 Larry Peterson was the key Micross Capis on the Wayne 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:34.520 Williams case, so we met him in person. 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.880 When I graduated from college in December of seventy seven, 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.320 started with the GBI Crime Lab in January of seventy eight, 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:44.399 so in mid seventy nine I had a year and 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:50.080 a half experience. There were over two hundred something investigators 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.240 assigned full time to the task Force, Fullton County to 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:56.639 cab County, the City of Atlanta, East Point PD. You 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.639 had Comb County, Rockdale County Sheriff's Department. You had a 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:03.840 lot of agencies, all contributing people that let's just say, 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:09.520 have varied degrees of cooperativeness with one another. They were 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:12.520 collecting tips at the task Force. They were constantly being 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:16.440 barraged with tips and adding information about sightings and vehicles 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:19.239 and people and all kinds of things. Some of that 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.080 led to searches and collectives that they would send in 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:24.440 evidence for or that we were going to do crime 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:27.200 scenes are So I can't tell you how many homes 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:31.320 and cars and suspect residences and whatever during this whole 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.480 thing that I literally went to much less that investigators 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:37.480 went to and did collectives and sent in. So it 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:41.640 was a task Force crime Scene collective unit between myself 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:44.479 and then zerologists and a latent print and that was 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:46.880 the Task Force crime Scene Unit. So if there's something 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:50.240 they thought of significance, this group went there and did 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:57.040 the processing. Through the investigation. There were hundreds of fiber 0:19:57.080 --> 0:19:59.399 samples being sent in. For a comparison, I don't have 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:01.399 the exact number, but there was a number of dog 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:02.760 hares being sent in. 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:04.440 Also. 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:06.919 They started putting together this conference and they were going 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:09.479 to bring in fiber or analysts from the Southeast, from 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:13.200 the State Labs and some other notable microscubis. So Walter 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:15.240 mccrolan and Skip Paynic were two. 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:19.000 After working multiple crime scenes in the Atlanta child murders case, 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:21.920 Larry discovered a particular trend in the fiber evidence found 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:26.199 on the victims, most significantly an oddly shaped green carpet fiber. 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:29.439 There's three principal things that I was looking for. There 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.560 was the green carpet, there was the violet acetate, and 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:36.639 the dog hare. Fifteen victims had the green fibers matching 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:39.399 the green carpet. Some of them only had one, some 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.080 of them had more than one, five six seven green 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:44.960 carpet fibers. One of the things I knew about the 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:47.680 green fiber was, as the others had pointed out also, 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:51.359 is that it was highly unique in its shape. I 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.240 certainly had never seen it. So when all of those, 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:57.440 including people in industry, had indicated they had never seen 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:00.640 a fiber like that, then that just made it more 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.200 intriguing as to how distinctive or where did the fiber 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:08.000 come from. When this gentleman from DuPont sketched the cross 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:10.760 sexual shape on this napkin at lunch, the woman who 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.600 categorizes these cross sections said she thought she had remembered 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:14.359 a fiber like that. 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:16.960 It was a very rare fiber, one that all the 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:19.840 experts had never seen before, but they eventually identified it. 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:22.480 This is the woman won a one B fiber. The 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.760 two very large lobes in this one short leg lob 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:30.679 on top. Wellman was a small company in Johnsonville, South Carolina, 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:34.919 and made very little fiber. That made that one fiber 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:39.480 just by its shape, highly unusual and rare. But they 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.600 didn't make carpet. They just made fibers. So they sold 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:45.480 fibers to several companies who then tufted it in the carpet. 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:47.879 So now we need to figure out who was making it. 0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:50.119 So we had their distribution, and there were five or 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:53.600 six companies that Wellman was settling to. FBI field agents 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:56.400