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Speaker 1: You're listening to episode nine of Atlanta Monster. There's one

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Speaker 1: episode left, episode ten. The season finale will come out

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Speaker 1: next Friday. Today's episode contains graphic content. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 1: After writing Sidney Dorsey a letter in prison, he finally

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Speaker 1: got back to us.

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Speaker 2: All right, Sidney Dorsey letter, Well, at least you know

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Speaker 2: what wasn't tampered with because the Georgia State Prison stam interesting.

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Speaker 2: This is handwritten, which is why it's hard to read.

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Speaker 3: Here's what he said.

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Speaker 1: I received your letter, and I truly apologize for my

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Speaker 1: delaym responding to you. Please forgive and charge it to

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Speaker 1: my head and not my heart. Accordingly, I believe that

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Speaker 1: there still remains public interest in the Atlanta child murders,

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Speaker 1: but I don't think that the evidence presented during the

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Speaker 1: WAYN Williams murder trial proved him guilty or innocent. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: I had no hard evidence there, and I have no

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Speaker 1: hard evidence now to prove him guilty or innocent. Truly,

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Speaker 1: if I knew anything that would help close the case.

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Speaker 3: I would provide it, but I don't.

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Speaker 1: Finally, if you have specific questions about the case, you

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Speaker 1: want answered, provide them to me now. We'll do my

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Speaker 1: best to answer them. Best regards Sidney. Contrary to his

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Speaker 1: Dateline interview years ago, Dorsey claimed to have no evidence

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Speaker 1: to prove Wayne's innocence. But what he did say is

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Speaker 1: that he felt the evidence in trial did not prove

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Speaker 1: him innocent or guilty. So what exactly happened during the

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Speaker 1: trial what convinced a jury that Wayne Williams was a murderer?

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Speaker 4: I must say, as kind of a preamble to what

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Speaker 4: I would tell you, is that I did not have

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Speaker 4: a lot of time for conspiracy theories or aliens with

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Speaker 4: pressure guns who were killing kids. I never really believed

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Speaker 4: there was one killer. Wayne couldn't kill anybody. Have you

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Speaker 4: seen Wayne? These one of those pudgy little guys whose

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Speaker 4: mom made him practice of piano every afternoon instead of

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Speaker 4: coming out and playing ball. One of those kids, and

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Speaker 4: you're telling me he's gonna kill a twenty seven year

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Speaker 4: old convict. Give me a break if you believe that

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Speaker 4: Wayne Williams killed thirty kids. I mean, I've got a

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Speaker 4: little piece of real estate, just a little west of

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Speaker 4: West Pismo Beach, California, that you might be interested in.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes in murder cases, common sense prevails it walks like

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Speaker 4: a duck. It's probably a duck, and it just didn't

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Speaker 4: walk like a duck. It was a media frenzy. If

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Speaker 4: we were to try the Wayne Williams case today, I

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Speaker 4: can't guarantee you I'd.

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Speaker 3: Walk that sucker in a heartbeating.

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Speaker 4: But hindsight, it's always twenty.

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Speaker 3: Twenty and Atlanta. Another body was discovering today the twenty.

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Speaker 4: Third the Police Task Force headquarters.

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Speaker 5: There are twenty seven faces on the wall, twenty six murdered,

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Speaker 5: one missing.

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Speaker 6: We do not know the person or persons that are responsible.

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Speaker 3: Therefore, we do not have the money.

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Speaker 1: From Tenner for TV and howstuff works in Atlanta.

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Speaker 7: Like eleven other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers apparently was

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Speaker 7: a Sphexa victory Atlanta.

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Speaker 5: It was unlikely to catch the killer unless he keeps

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Speaker 5: on killing.

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Speaker 3: This is Atlanta monster.

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Speaker 4: Apparently I had some sort of reputation among defense investigators.

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Speaker 4: In a period of three years, I had worked twenty

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Speaker 4: three cases and I lost one, which was Wayne Williams.

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Speaker 1: This is William north Road, an investigator for will William's

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Speaker 1: defense team.

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Speaker 4: You're Mary, Welcome called and Mary City. You know we

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Speaker 4: shook in Usua, Hell and so I went to Atlanta

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Speaker 4: and it was a zoo.

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Speaker 5: Most of the preparations for the Wayne Williams trial have

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Speaker 5: already been completed in just a few hours. Hundreds of

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Speaker 5: reporters and others interested in the case, we'll be trying

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Speaker 5: to make their way up to the fourth floor to

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Speaker 5: get a glimpse of the first day's proceedings.

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Speaker 1: In his eyes, the biggest obstacle was the sensation of

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Speaker 1: the trial itself.

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Speaker 5: More than eight hundred perspective jurors have been summoned for

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Speaker 5: the trial. The unusually lodge number was ordered by Judge

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Speaker 5: Cooper to try to ensure that at least twelve impartial

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Speaker 5: jurors can be found in this city besieged by publicity

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Speaker 5: about the murder case. Already, Network made his cruise who

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Speaker 5: reserves based on the street outside the courthouse for their

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Speaker 5: motor homes loaded with electronic equipment and media from across

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Speaker 5: the country. It made similar plans for coverage of the trial,

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Speaker 5: which may last two months.

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Speaker 8: It was the crime of the century before OJ it

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Speaker 8: was that kind of intense interest. My name is Dale Russell.

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Speaker 8: I'm the senior investigative reporter for Fox five News. Here

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Speaker 8: at Lane, I began my career as a reporter the

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Speaker 8: very same month of the first murders of the missing

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Speaker 8: murdered kids, so I have covered this story my entire career.

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Speaker 8: There were so many journalists that we could not all

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Speaker 8: get in. We were actually all put in a room

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Speaker 8: off to the side.

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Speaker 5: On full side of the courtroom will be reserved for reporters.

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Speaker 5: The overflow. We'll be able to watch the trial from

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Speaker 5: a special press room down the hall, and they'll all

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Speaker 5: be waiting. A few minutes before nine tomorrow morning, when

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Speaker 5: under extremely tighted security, accused murderer Wayne Williams will be

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Speaker 5: brought to the Fulden County Courthouse for the first day

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Speaker 5: of what may prove to be the most celebrated trial

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Speaker 5: in Atlanta history.

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Speaker 4: Our entire defense really rested on common sense. There was

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Speaker 4: no place for that in that courtroom.

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Speaker 9: The state would like to introduce the evidence to show

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Speaker 9: the jury a pattern of killings that claims Wayne Williams committed.

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Speaker 4: Was there a murder is a turn out. There were

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Speaker 4: five out of thirty. The others were not legal medical murders.

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Speaker 1: As a defense investigator, one of his main points was

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Speaker 1: that no one of authority could be one hundred percent

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Speaker 1: sure that these murders were actually murders.

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Speaker 4: If you start with that premise, how you going to

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Speaker 4: try a guy for murder.

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Speaker 1: In his investigation, he found that most causes of death

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Speaker 1: were unknown, undetermined, or in some other way vague.

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Speaker 4: One of the counts that Wayne was convicted of, the

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Speaker 4: original death certificate said undetermined, and then when they charged

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Speaker 4: Wayne with that murder, the medical examiner went back and

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Speaker 4: changed it to homicide.

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Speaker 10: It is not known yet whether pain was strangled or suffocated.

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Speaker 5: In the absence of the injuries, there are some features

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Speaker 5: of us fixing it.

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Speaker 8: Any external marks at all around the.

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Speaker 5: Neck, no extending locks it on the neck.

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Speaker 1: You may remember this story from episode of four. The

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Speaker 1: medical examiner changed the cause of death for Jimmy ray Payne.

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Speaker 4: Why because he had a problem. It wasn't a legal

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Speaker 4: medical murder. And the idea that all these murders quote

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Speaker 4: unquote stopped happening after Wayne was arrested is enough crap

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Speaker 4: to for the last c minut.

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Speaker 1: According to Northrope, there were way too many cooks in

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Speaker 1: the kitchen and things were bound to get messy.

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Speaker 4: So you got this conglomeration of police from God only

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Speaker 4: knows where, State, local, FBI. You know, they were walking

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Speaker 4: all over each other. There was no one person out

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Speaker 4: there killing everybody. You see, here's the problem. If you

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Speaker 4: take non legal medical murders and you call them murders,

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Speaker 4: then all of a sudden, you've got a massacre of

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Speaker 4: thirty children. These are the murder kids. And of course

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Speaker 4: the media did everything in their power to sell the

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Speaker 4: idea that somebody was murdering the children of Atlama. There

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Speaker 4: were murders five that I know of, but the rest

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 9: Investigators the morning of May twenty second wanted to know

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Speaker 9: one thing. Why was Wayne Williams driving over a bridge

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Speaker 9: at three o'clock after stakeout officers heard a loud splash. Well,

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Speaker 9: according to Williams, he was out looking for the address

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Speaker 9: of a singer, Cheryl Johnson, who had called him several

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Speaker 9: days earlier about his talent agency.

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Speaker 6: It starts off with the bridge.

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Speaker 8: The bridge testimony was extremely strong.

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Speaker 9: The state today tried to show the jury that Wayne

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Speaker 9: Williams frankly lied and that after telling his alibi to investigators,

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Speaker 9: he tried to.

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Speaker 3: Cover his tracks.

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Speaker 9: The defense claims, there's an explanation for everything we heard

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Speaker 9: today and that the state didn't explore all the possibilities.

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Speaker 4: Wayne would have to pick up Jimmy Ray Payne or

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Speaker 4: Cater and throw him over the bridge rail into the water.

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Speaker 4: To make that whole scenario come about. Wayne stops on

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Speaker 4: the bridge. Place is covered with police. Now, maybe some

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Speaker 4: of the cadets are asleep. I don't know.

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Speaker 8: It's bushwa I've been on stakeouts and I can tell

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Speaker 8: you guys were asleep. I mean, it just happens. But

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Speaker 8: we don't know that he was asleep.

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Speaker 9: Although prosecutors had most of the pieces that night in May,

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Speaker 9: it's still like the essential part of the puzzle. Someone

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Speaker 9: actually seen William's car stopped on the bridge, or better yet,

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Speaker 9: the suspect throwing a body from the structure. Attorney Welcome

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Speaker 9: appeared confident that the evidence against her client didn't amount

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Speaker 9: to much.

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Speaker 11: The young man who saw the car that had never stopped.

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Speaker 11: I think what you'd have to pick here is a

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Speaker 11: man driving with one hand, opening a car without stopping,

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Speaker 11: and casting one hundred and fifty something pounds over a bridge.

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Speaker 4: We ran tests on that bridge.

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Speaker 9: That sound, the defense claims, is the key to their proof.

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Speaker 9: Police recruit Bob Campbell, part of the stakeout team, says

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Speaker 9: William's card did not make that sound, indicating the vehicle

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Speaker 9: was traveling.

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Speaker 3: At a slow rate of speed.

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Speaker 9: So on the stand was this sound expert who conducted

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Speaker 9: tests for the defense at the bridge this week.

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Speaker 4: The conclusion of the expert was Wayne didn't stop, and

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Speaker 4: no one saw Wayne stop.

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Speaker 9: Testimony about the clankety clank a metal expansion joint makes

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Speaker 9: when a car rolls over it.

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Speaker 3: The reason he didn't.

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Speaker 9: Hear the car attorney's claim is because the recruit was

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Speaker 9: fast asleep.

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Speaker 1: Pulling from his notes in his memory, Dale recounted the

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Speaker 1: bridge testimony.

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Speaker 8: The bridge testimony alone was extremely powerful. I just think

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Speaker 8: a Wayne was stopped by the bridge, or you stopped

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Speaker 8: near the bridge. But when you go through that testimony

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Speaker 8: point by point, it's riveting. This is his testimony.

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Speaker 3: Campbell.

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Speaker 8: Hears a splash. He grabs his flashlight and a baton

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Speaker 8: he grabs for self defense. He puts the flashlight on

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Speaker 8: the river and sees big waves coming up on the shore.

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Speaker 8: He flashes the light up to the bridge, nothing back

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Speaker 8: down to the river, watching the waves subside, flashes it

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Speaker 8: up a second time. Now, think of the timing that

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Speaker 8: we're talking about here. You hear the splash, you get up,

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Speaker 8: you get your flashlight, you're looking. This is what he

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Speaker 8: testified to The lights came on and the car began

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Speaker 8: to move.

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Speaker 9: While looking up at the bridge, he saw lights go

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Speaker 9: on after the splash. Then they moved away slowly. That

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Speaker 9: testimony supported his partner's claim that the car Williams was

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Speaker 9: driving approached the bridge very slowly and without headlights simultaneously.

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Speaker 8: I have the words simultaneously written in my trial notes.

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Speaker 8: So the lights were off when the splash hit the water.

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Speaker 1: The Williams and his defense team refuted this version of

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Speaker 1: the story.

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Speaker 9: Williams bluntly stated the police version of the now famous

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Speaker 9: bridge incident was wrong, a lie. He claimed he wasn't

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Speaker 9: driving slow, that he didn't turn around in a parking

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Speaker 9: lot next to the bridge, that he did not throw

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Speaker 9: anything into the river.

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Speaker 3: But, according to Northrope.

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Speaker 4: Wrong place, wrong time, he was convenient, a cynical establishment

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Speaker 4: just scooped him right up and said you're our boy.

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Speaker 4: It all came down to fibers.

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Speaker 12: These are called fiber scopes. Criminologists at the State Crime

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Speaker 12: Lab use them to compare and match fibers, rope or fabric,

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Speaker 12: for instance, from different sources. Now workers there have matched

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Speaker 12: fibers from task force evidence to make the first official

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Speaker 12: correlation between the murders of at least two of Atlanta's

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Speaker 12: fifteen murdered children.

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Speaker 4: To tell you the truth, it scared me. I didn't

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Speaker 4: have any experience with fibers. I was afraid of it.

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Speaker 4: I was afraid of the evidence.

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Speaker 13: We've come up with some physical evidence that's common to

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Speaker 13: at least two with the bodies, and it falls into

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Speaker 13: the fiber category.

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Speaker 14: People in the world need to know where somebody has

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Speaker 14: been from the dust on their clothes, of the soil

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Speaker 14: on their shoe, and the geological mapp will have a regional,

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Speaker 14: say unconsolidated sediment, but we can point to one spot

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Speaker 14: and say this is what the soil was like at

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Speaker 14: that point. So, for example, back there is the entire Punjab,

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Speaker 14: for example in Pakistan.

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Speaker 3: How'd y'all collect all that?

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Speaker 13: How long?

244
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Speaker 11: This day?

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Speaker 14: My lifetime? This is a lifetime's work. This is sand

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Speaker 14: and soil from all over the world.

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Speaker 1: We visited palin It at his lab micro Trace outside

248
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Speaker 1: of Chicago. The walls were covered with small shelves home

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00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:42,040
Speaker 1: to hundreds of bottles holding sand, dirt and fibers from

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Speaker 1: all over the world, because.

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Speaker 14: There are all fibers from their manufacture and the world. Practically,

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Speaker 14: I was eight years old and at my first microscope,

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Speaker 14: I had my own lamb. So I've been doing it

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Speaker 14: for sixty four years looking through microscopes, senior research microscopist,

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00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:11,160
Speaker 14: I guess president of the company, Like, yeah, lawyers can't

256
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:17,080
Speaker 14: say that, but it's microscopist and it comes from microscopy, chemistry, physics, biology,

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Speaker 14: those things are all fundamental. There would be no forensic

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00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,120
Speaker 14: science if you didn't have those sciences. So forensic science

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00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,680
Speaker 14: one of the basics of forensic science. One of our

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00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:28,920
Speaker 14: laws that we can call our own is called Lekard's

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00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:35,360
Speaker 14: exchange principle. Edwin Lecard was a French scientist. He formulated

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00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,440
Speaker 14: a principle based on the analysis of dusk. He promulgated

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00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,800
Speaker 14: this theory briefly, It states that whenever two objects come

264
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,160
Speaker 14: in contact, there's always a transfer of material.

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Speaker 3: Always.

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Speaker 14: So let's say, for example, all of a sudden, for

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Speaker 14: some reason, you make me mad and I jump on

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00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,200
Speaker 14: you and start attacking you, and we're never in contact again.

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Speaker 14: But we were you file charges against me for attacking you,

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Speaker 14: and you've sai your sweater, so we get your sweater

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Speaker 14: and we get my sweer. So well, are both black

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Speaker 14: sweaters a big deal? Well, if you look at the

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Speaker 14: fibers from your sweater and my swear, they're going to

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Speaker 14: turn out to be different. Almost certainly. Almost every day

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Speaker 14: of my life I looked through microscope for one reason

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Speaker 14: or another. Every time I go somewhere, or friends of

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Speaker 14: mine go somewhere, colleagues or people I've had from places

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Speaker 14: in other parts of the world, I ask them where

279
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,400
Speaker 14: they are, where they live, if they've gone there to

280
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Speaker 14: come back, that they vacuum their clothing for us. And

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Speaker 14: so there's one of those cabinets you saw on the lab.

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Speaker 14: It's just filled with these little vacuum cassettes with dust.

283
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,280
Speaker 14: But those are mixtures of things for us to analyze

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00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,320
Speaker 14: and do research on it. We have pure materials, so

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Speaker 14: we have almost all the known synthetic fibers from different manufacturers,

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00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,280
Speaker 14: so we have reference material to work from. If your

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00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:03,200
Speaker 14: business is like ours, is identifying unknown substances. Ultimate goal

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00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,280
Speaker 14: or the ultimate proof of an identification is to compare

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00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:07,760
Speaker 14: it to authentic material.

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Speaker 1: Skip explained the role of fiber analyst in legal cases.

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Speaker 14: The police who are there to investigate materials. They feel

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00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,520
Speaker 14: they've got enough evidence that somebody should be brought upon charges.

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00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,800
Speaker 14: Someone's accused, you've got a defense attorney who's higher than

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Speaker 14: under the belief that his client is innocent in fact

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00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,520
Speaker 14: under our system here, and the defense attorney should do

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00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,280
Speaker 14: everything they can to help prove his case. So their

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00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,320
Speaker 14: advocates to their clients, the district attorney as the state

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00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,720
Speaker 14: as their client. They're an advocate for their position, the

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00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,920
Speaker 14: position of the police. There is a jury in most trials.

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00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,120
Speaker 14: Their job is to listen objectively to the evidence. That's

301
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,800
Speaker 14: why a jury is selected carefully. In all this, the

302
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,280
Speaker 14: forensic scientist comes that our job is supposed to be

303
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,440
Speaker 14: to help get to the truth. We can, certainly in

304
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,160
Speaker 14: most cases provide facts. If somebody thinks it's not a fact,

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00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,400
Speaker 14: they can try and prove that wrong. We go to

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00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,600
Speaker 14: great lengths to make sure that something we present as

307
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,680
Speaker 14: a fact is though, so it can't be proven wrong

308
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,840
Speaker 14: because we don't have an axe to grind. We're just

309
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,159
Speaker 14: there trying to make sure that the jury hears us

310
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,399
Speaker 14: and what the likely explanations are, and if it's not

311
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,000
Speaker 14: like the explanation, there's something else, then we can comment

312
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,920
Speaker 14: on it, you know, we will. You know, I don't

313
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:23,359
Speaker 14: think much about the human players in these cases. It

314
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,560
Speaker 14: probably sounds odd to people because if you watch detective

315
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,520
Speaker 14: shows and things, they're always analyzing motives, and they're analyzing,

316
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,080
Speaker 14: you know, going back in the person's past and so forth. Honestly,

317
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,160
Speaker 14: I would be more interested in looking at the dust

318
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,879
Speaker 14: vacuum from his clothing than I would be, you know,

319
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,679
Speaker 14: and never talking to him. We're questioning him. If you

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00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:44,840
Speaker 14: were to bring me here and ask me a look

321
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:46,200
Speaker 14: and tell you everything I could, I would be able

322
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:47,879
Speaker 14: to tell you some things. Then you might actually be

323
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,720
Speaker 14: amazed about what you see. The Lanchell murders are a

324
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,560
Speaker 14: great example of microscopic trace evidents.

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00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,520
Speaker 1: Skip was involved in the Atlanta Chilo murders case. One

326
00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,240
Speaker 1: of his former students, Larry Peterson, was working on the

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00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,160
Speaker 1: case and he called him up for assistance.

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Speaker 14: I remember I got the first call from Larry asked

329
00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,320
Speaker 14: me if I could come down to Atlanta. He was

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00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,160
Speaker 14: as enthusiastic, as intelligent as scientists, as a young man

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00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 14: as you would want to meet. She's He's also a

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00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,080
Speaker 14: good person. Sometimes you meet people who are talented and

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00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,639
Speaker 14: you know they're not nice people, and Larry's just one

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00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:25,560
Speaker 14: of these easy going guys who's innate kindness. We could

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00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,200
Speaker 14: lead people to believe that he's not as bright.

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Speaker 6: As he is.

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00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,080
Speaker 1: Larry Peterson was the key Micross Capis on the Wayne

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00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,520
Speaker 1: Williams case, so we met him in person.

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00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,880
Speaker 7: When I graduated from college in December of seventy seven,

340
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,320
Speaker 7: started with the GBI Crime Lab in January of seventy eight,

341
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:44,399
Speaker 7: so in mid seventy nine I had a year and

342
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:50,080
Speaker 7: a half experience. There were over two hundred something investigators

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00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,240
Speaker 7: assigned full time to the task Force, Fullton County to

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00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,639
Speaker 7: cab County, the City of Atlanta, East Point PD. You

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00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,639
Speaker 7: had Comb County, Rockdale County Sheriff's Department. You had a

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00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,840
Speaker 7: lot of agencies, all contributing people that let's just say,

347
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:09,520
Speaker 7: have varied degrees of cooperativeness with one another. They were

348
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,520
Speaker 7: collecting tips at the task Force. They were constantly being

349
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,440
Speaker 7: barraged with tips and adding information about sightings and vehicles

350
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,239
Speaker 7: and people and all kinds of things. Some of that

351
00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,080
Speaker 7: led to searches and collectives that they would send in

352
00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,440
Speaker 7: evidence for or that we were going to do crime

353
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,200
Speaker 7: scenes are So I can't tell you how many homes

354
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,320
Speaker 7: and cars and suspect residences and whatever during this whole

355
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,480
Speaker 7: thing that I literally went to much less that investigators

356
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,480
Speaker 7: went to and did collectives and sent in. So it

357
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,640
Speaker 7: was a task Force crime Scene collective unit between myself

358
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,479
Speaker 7: and then zerologists and a latent print and that was

359
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,880
Speaker 7: the Task Force crime Scene Unit. So if there's something

360
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,240
Speaker 7: they thought of significance, this group went there and did

361
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:57,040
Speaker 7: the processing. Through the investigation. There were hundreds of fiber

362
00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,399
Speaker 7: samples being sent in. For a comparison, I don't have

363
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,399
Speaker 7: the exact number, but there was a number of dog

364
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:02,760
Speaker 7: hares being sent in.

365
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:04,440
Speaker 6: Also.

366
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,919
Speaker 7: They started putting together this conference and they were going

367
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,479
Speaker 7: to bring in fiber or analysts from the Southeast, from

368
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,200
Speaker 7: the State Labs and some other notable microscubis. So Walter

369
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,240
Speaker 7: mccrolan and Skip Paynic were two.

370
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,000
Speaker 1: After working multiple crime scenes in the Atlanta child murders case,

371
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,920
Speaker 1: Larry discovered a particular trend in the fiber evidence found

372
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,199
Speaker 1: on the victims, most significantly an oddly shaped green carpet fiber.

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00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,439
Speaker 7: There's three principal things that I was looking for. There

374
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,560
Speaker 7: was the green carpet, there was the violet acetate, and

375
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,639
Speaker 7: the dog hare. Fifteen victims had the green fibers matching

376
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,399
Speaker 7: the green carpet. Some of them only had one, some

377
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,080
Speaker 7: of them had more than one, five six seven green

378
00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,960
Speaker 7: carpet fibers. One of the things I knew about the

379
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,680
Speaker 7: green fiber was, as the others had pointed out also,

380
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:51,359
Speaker 7: is that it was highly unique in its shape. I

381
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,240
Speaker 7: certainly had never seen it. So when all of those,

382
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,440
Speaker 7: including people in industry, had indicated they had never seen

383
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,640
Speaker 7: a fiber like that, then that just made it more

384
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,200
Speaker 7: intriguing as to how distinctive or where did the fiber

385
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 7: come from. When this gentleman from DuPont sketched the cross

386
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,760
Speaker 7: sexual shape on this napkin at lunch, the woman who

387
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,600
Speaker 7: categorizes these cross sections said she thought she had remembered

388
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:14,359
Speaker 7: a fiber like that.

389
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:16,960
Speaker 1: It was a very rare fiber, one that all the

390
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 1: experts had never seen before, but they eventually identified it.

391
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,480
Speaker 7: This is the woman won a one B fiber. The

392
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,760
Speaker 7: two very large lobes in this one short leg lob

393
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:30,679
Speaker 7: on top. Wellman was a small company in Johnsonville, South Carolina,

394
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,919
Speaker 7: and made very little fiber. That made that one fiber

395
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 7: just by its shape, highly unusual and rare. But they

396
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 7: didn't make carpet. They just made fibers. So they sold

397
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 7: fibers to several companies who then tufted it in the carpet.

398
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:47,879
Speaker 7: So now we need to figure out who was making it.

399
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 7: So we had their distribution, and there were five or

400
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 7: six companies that Wellman was settling to. FBI field agents

401
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,400
Speaker 7: went and collected green carpet samples from all of these

402
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 7: companies and sent them into the laboratory.

403
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,200
Speaker 1: So just how rare was this green carpet fiber? Larry

404
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:03,320
Speaker 1: pinpointed that exactly.

405
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 7: So there was like six hundred and eighty thousand square

406
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,639
Speaker 7: yards total of that carpet made. If you kind of

407
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 7: looked at an average room twelve point fifteen or about

408
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 7: twenty square yards, and you roughly have six hundred and

409
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 7: eighty rooms total production of that carpet. And they distributed

410
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 7: that carpet in ten southeastern states. Now they didn't have

411
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 7: records of how much went where or who it was

412
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 7: sold to, but if it was an equal distribution, that's

413
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 7: eighty two rooms of that carpet for the whole State

414
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 7: of Georgia.

415
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 3: Eighty two rooms.

416
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,639
Speaker 7: This is not just distinctive, it's actually very rare. The

417
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 7: FBI had dug out there was six hundred something thousand

418
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 7: occupied housing units in Metro Atlanta, so even if all

419
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 7: eighty two rooms of that carpet was in the Metro

420
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 7: Atlanta area, still it would be highly unusual to find it.

421
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 1: Over the years, Larry developed a simple analogy to help

422
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 1: people understand the rarity of this fiber.

423
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 7: Imagine that you're a witness of a getaway car to

424
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 7: bank robbery. The getaway car is a lime green Rolls

425
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 7: Royce with a purple racing stripe. So you're a gonna think, wow,

426
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 7: that is really a distinctive car. If I ever see

427
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,439
Speaker 7: that car again, I'm going to recognize that car. And

428
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 7: if you describe it to others and they have a

429
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 7: recognition of generally what cars look like, they will also

430
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 7: recognize that that's a highly unusual car. And if I

431
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,959
Speaker 7: ever see it again, I'll say that's the car. The

432
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,400
Speaker 7: odds of another car being like that have to be

433
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 7: astronomically low, if at all. So this green carpet fiber

434
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 7: was something like that, except that you couldn't recognize it.

435
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 7: At first, it became over time align green rolls Royce

436
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 7: with a purple stripe in the guise of a fiber

437
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 7: that unique.

438
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 1: In the trial Wayne's the fence investigator, William Northrop was

439
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: busy doing some testing of his own.

440
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 4: I call Lee Bailey's office. They gave me they swore

441
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 4: up him down. He was the best fiber expert in

442
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 4: the world. Yeah, and how that goes. He came out

443
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 4: of Kansas, believe it or not. When I picked him

444
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 4: up the airport, took me out and he said, listen,

445
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 4: stop by a department store. So we went over to

446
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 4: Lenox Square and there was the riches over there in

447
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 4: those days. We bought two new pillowcases and we went

448
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,719
Speaker 4: down to the river to actually the bridge where Wayne

449
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 4: was spotted that night. We put the pillowcases in the

450
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 4: water and let the water flow through it. Pulled them

451
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 4: out there with thousands of fibers in the pillow cases.

452
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 4: So so much for fiber evidence.

453
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:42,360
Speaker 3: We asked Larry about this.

454
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 6: So here's what really happened.

455
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 7: He had gone down to the river with a pillow

456
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 7: case and allowed riverwater to flow through it for some

457
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 7: period of time. I don't know how long and then

458
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 7: he had collected fibers from the pillar case and was

459
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,239
Speaker 7: indicating that the river was full of fibers, with the

460
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 7: notion then that there are some many fibers in the river.

461
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 7: That's the logical source for where the fibers came from,

462
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 7: as opposed to the Williams home. Through discovery we able

463
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 7: to get the samples that random Berze actually looked at

464
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 7: the actual fiber samples from the pell case he collected.

465
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 1: Larry was able to test the fibers Wyne's defence found

466
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: in their pillowcase experiment and according to him.

467
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 7: So there were not thousands of fibers, there was like

468
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 7: thirty fibers total. None of thirty fibers was any of

469
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 7: the fibers remotely close to any of the connecting fibers

470
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 7: that we had in the trial.

471
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 1: Northolk claimed that fibers could not be found on the

472
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 1: body submerged in water for days because the skin.

473
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 4: Dissolves within five days. If you're submerged in water, your

474
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 4: skin dissolved, peels all you have what they call skin slippage,

475
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 4: and what does that tell you about your fiber evidence.

476
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 4: No fibers who were picked up anywhere they washed away

477
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 4: if there were.

478
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 1: We asked Larry about this too, so he opened his

479
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: laptop and pulled up a power point with graphic pictures

480
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: of Nathaniel Cater's body.

481
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 7: That's Nathaniel Cater's body. Oh my, I mean you put

482
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 7: this presentation.

483
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 6: Let's see it here.

484
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 7: I am collecting fibers out of his hair, and you're

485
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 7: being placed into a ziploc bag.

486
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 6: Of the decomposition and his skin slippage whatever.

487
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 7: Now that you're right, you know you're not going to

488
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 7: find anything on the skin or whatever of the body.

489
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 6: Most of the fibers probably did get lost.

490
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 7: But next to the scalp below the hair, there was

491
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 7: a layer of silt like out of the river, like

492
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 7: like clay silt. So his hair was acting as a

493
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 7: filter and silt was depositing, you know, next to the

494
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 7: scalp under the hair.

495
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 6: Because of this silt kind of in casing the fibers.

496
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 7: Whatever was there was gonna So I'm actually going digging

497
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 7: through the silt next to the scalp and finding fibers

498
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 7: and putting.

499
00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 6: Him in that Zubblont bag.

500
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 7: So there and fibers that I found were collected there.

501
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 7: Because it's the movement of the water fibers would have

502
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 7: been protected because the silk had get incased them.

503
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 1: Larry had collected countless fibers from the bodies of victims,

504
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 1: but they still hadn't made a match. But all of

505
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: that was about to change. He recalled the knight that

506
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: sent their investigation in a whole new direction.

507
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 7: I was at a trial in Douglas County and I

508
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 7: got a call out there, Hey, when you get done,

509
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,959
Speaker 7: you need to go to the FBI headquarters building. You know,

510
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 7: there's something going on there. So myself and a coworker

511
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 7: who had helped me, he and I went down to

512
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 7: the headquarters building and we're waiting and there's a lot

513
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 7: of hush talking and not getting a lot of information,

514
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 7: you know, So what are we doing? And then he

515
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 7: and I see the FBI crime scene team that they

516
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 7: had flown down on several occasions. And then we were

517
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,360
Speaker 7: told that there was a car. There was a car

518
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 7: to be processed down at the base by the FBI building,

519
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 7: And so we go down there, he and I, and

520
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 7: there as a serologist from the FBI team down there

521
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 7: as well to process the car.

522
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 3: It was Wayne William's car, and.

523
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 7: I'm asking where did the others go and they said, well,

524
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 7: there's something about a house. It was like the house.

525
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 7: So I actually called the head of the task force.

526
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 7: I said, what's going on. FBI folks are here and

527
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 7: we got a cars being processed about a house. Well,

528
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 7: he had the address of the house. So I drove

529
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 7: to the house. The FBI team was already in processing

530
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 7: the house. I knew what I was looking for. I

531
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 7: was looking for green carpet, violet acetate, and dogcare. I

532
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 7: go in the house and there's wald of wall, green carpet,

533
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 7: and there's a bed spread in the suspects bedroom and

534
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 7: it's violet but also has green in it as well

535
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 7: the average German shepherd dog. And so I principally collected

536
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 7: those things. I went back to the FBI building and

537
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 7: I said, I'm going to the lab. And I got

538
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 7: these samples. I want to see what they look like.

539
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: But the first time Larry's fiber evidence seemed to be

540
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: going somewhere, but it would all come down to what

541
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: the samples look like under a microscope.

542
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 7: So when I get to the lab, so it's like

543
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 7: ten o'clock at night, and so I mount the samples

544
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 7: up first, the green carpet and put it on the

545
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 7: microscope and.

546
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 6: It's like, there it is.

547
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 7: I threw the purple fibers under their next and here's

548
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 7: the bolt acetate. It's like unbelievable. And at that point

549
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,959
Speaker 7: I've been looking for them for months and months, no matches,

550
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 7: and then here's two matches from one source. Right then

551
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 7: I knew it was highly significant.

552
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,479
Speaker 1: Again, Larry and Northrop differed on this.

553
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 7: I actually was expecting it not to match. Now I'm

554
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 7: feeling this needs to be a deep dive search. This

555
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 7: is not another place where I've gone to where there's

556
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 7: no green carpet and there's nothing purple, and they don't

557
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 7: have a dog, or they've got a dog, but it's

558
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 7: a different breed dog. And you know, there was nothing

559
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 7: even on the surface of it that made it seem

560
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 7: like maybe this was a maybe. And keep in mind

561
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 7: that just because you find a fiber that's not of

562
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 7: the clothing doesn't mean it's important. Because you're picking up

563
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 7: fibers from your home, your car, a lot of places

564
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 7: that you would normally go to, so there's nothing going

565
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 7: to jump out and go, hey, I'm a fiber from

566
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 7: a killer. These comparisons happened before Wayne Williams's home was

567
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 7: ever searched, before we ever had a piece of green carpet.

568
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 7: These were individual cases examined over, you know, on an

569
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 7: almost two year period of time.

570
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 4: I liked Wayne. He was nerdish.

571
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 8: Pretty much everybody in the media knewing it's some level.

572
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 8: He worked at the radio station I worked at right

573
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 8: before I was hired. I knew kind of from a distance.

574
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 8: So when he was arrested, we were all talking about it.

575
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 8: Everybody's going, that's Wayne. He's cocky. He's a little nerdy,

576
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 8: very kind of unassuming, unassuming in cocky.

577
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 4: At the same time, I called doctor Brad Bayless and

578
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 4: I asked him if he would come over and hang

579
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 4: out and interview Wayne, let me know whether or not

580
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 4: he was crazy.

581
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 3: This is popcorn with the FBI.

582
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 13: I was a bureau sex crimes instructor, and I should

583
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 13: have seen this right away. He's a sexual sadist. He

584
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 13: gets arousal from the act of murdering the act of killing.

585
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 13: He's the most dangerous of all sexual predatice. They will

586
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 13: plan their murders, they will carry them out meticulously, and

587
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 13: he is a sexual sadist. He's the most dangerous of

588
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 13: all sexual predators and.

589
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 3: Mike mccombas with the FBI.

590
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,239
Speaker 15: I think Wayne has some mental issues, some disorders that

591
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 15: would cause someone to be a compulsive liar. In my

592
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 15: layman's terms, I think is a sociopath. I think he

593
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 15: exhibits all the characteristics the compulsive liar, the inability to

594
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 15: love or know that you're hurting somebody, the illusions of grandeur.

595
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 6: I was a hostage negotiator in the.

596
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 15: FBI, and of course we had to know when we

597
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 15: were dealing with people that had mental issues. If you

598
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 15: don't believe me, look up sociopath and look at what

599
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 15: the five characteristics, the five biggies. The hair will pop

600
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 15: up on your arm. You'll go wow.

601
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 16: The term sociopath is used very loosely and there's no

602
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 16: one meaning of it. It has five or six different

603
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 16: meanings in the literature, and we don't use it because

604
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 16: it's kind of a coloquial term.

605
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: This is doctor Scott Lillienfeld, an author and psychology professor

606
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: at EMRI University. One of his fields of study is psychopathy.

607
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 16: Most of the classic work on psychopathy goes back to

608
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 16: the work of a man named Hervey Cleckley actually was

609
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 16: from Georgia, wrote a classic book in nineteen forty one

610
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 16: that went through several editions called The Mask of Sanity.

611
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 6: The Mask of.

612
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 16: Sanity called psychopathy because he thought that they presented with

613
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 16: a kind of convincing facade of being quite normal and

614
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 16: quite healthy. So they often seem healthy, actually in some

615
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 16: cases even healthier than us, but deep down there was

616
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 16: something very wrong with them. Likely delineated sixteen criteria that

617
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 16: he thought were central to psychopathy. Psychopathic people tend to

618
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 16: be charming on the outside. They make a good first

619
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 16: depression of other people. They often see poised normal, often

620
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,239
Speaker 16: seem to be largely immune to anxiety and kind of

621
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 16: neurotic quirks. They also seem to show a number of

622
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 16: interpersonal deficits. They often are very self centered, They often

623
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 16: are manipulative, and they also show a lot of affective

624
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 16: emotional deficits. They're often callous, they seem to lack empathy,

625
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 16: they don't seem to form very close emotional attachments to people,

626
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 16: they don't seem to fall in love very deeply with people.

627
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 16: Then you see a lot of behavioral abnormalities, a lot

628
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 16: of things that they do that's different for the rest

629
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 16: of us. They tend to lie a lot, they cheat

630
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 16: a lot, They're often sexually promiscuous, and they often see

631
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 16: themselves as the victims. They often see their problems as

632
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 16: everybody else's fault, but theirs. They seem to like insight

633
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 16: into the nature and extent of their problems, And my

634
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 16: take on it, in part is that they just have

635
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 16: very little capacity for introspection. I'm having all of these problems,

636
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 16: I keep getting caught, I'm doing all these things, and

637
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,879
Speaker 16: so well, it's it's got to be my upbring or

638
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 16: the way that people have treated me, or the fact

639
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 16: I've had many bad breaks in life, or blah blah

640
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 16: blah blah blah blah blah. Rarely is it acknowledge that

641
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 16: it's their fault. They will often exhibit poor impulse control,

642
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 16: often explode unpredictably, though often have a short fuse. When

643
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 16: someone insults them or threatens them, they may explode very quickly.

644
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 16: They may have a very short fuse. So it's a

645
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 16: very complex picture. I think when you put all that together,

646
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 16: it's like, what is that beast? It's really hard to

647
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 16: sort of summarize it. But would colickily argue as again,

648
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 16: it's this mascul sanity. See this wolf in chef's clothing.

649
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 16: You see someone who superficially seems very healthy, well adjusted, charismatic, poised,

650
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 16: but then deep down there was something very wrong with him.

651
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 1: Even for the defense team, it was important to decide

652
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: whether or not Wayne was stable.

653
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 4: I wanted to know if Wayne was sane, which he was.

654
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: He arranged an interview between Wayne and a specialist. According

655
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: to their expert, Wayne was saying, but there was still

656
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: one major problem with their case.

657
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 3: Wayne fit the profile.

658
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 4: Wayne fit the profile that the FBI had, but he

659
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 4: had a different take on that. Profiling to me is

660
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 4: an inexact science. Now people will argue with me, but

661
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 4: I'm not going to be dependent on profiling. He wanted

662
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 4: to make a breakthrough. He wanted to find his place,

663
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 4: and the closest he had was his connections to the media.

664
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 4: Wayne would call and tell me, you know, we need

665
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 4: to do this, We need to do that. Okay, fine, Wayne,

666
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 4: write me a check. You know we don't have any money. Wayne.

667
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 8: It was two days of testimony.

668
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 10: When the sun's first light at the County Courthouse, the

669
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 10: crowd was already here. They started gathering at four am.

670
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,919
Speaker 10: Even though the doors didn't open till eight some four

671
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 10: hundred showed up hoping to watch Wayne Williams testify. And

672
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 10: when you get a crowd this size competing for about

673
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 10: fifty court room seats, you've got trouble.

674
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 8: So he did. We fell a pretty good job in

675
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 8: the first day of testimony, kept his composure, answered the

676
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 8: questions that they had to break in. They had to

677
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 8: show the jury a different side of Wayne Williams. They

678
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 8: had to let the jury see that this unassuming guy

679
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 8: sitting in front of them had this other side to

680
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 8: his personality, and they got it.

681
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 9: Wayne Williams was not the mild mannered witness we saw

682
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 9: the last two days.

683
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 3: He was irritable, arrogant.

684
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 9: Assistant Da Jack Mallard had him right where he wanted him.

685
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 8: He finally broke and he snapped at the prosecutor.

686
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 9: He called FBI agent's goons, didn't answer some of the

687
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 9: prosecutor's questions and said his own defense attorney Mary Welcome,

688
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 9: forced him to give an interview for money.

689
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 8: You want the real Wayne Williams, Well, you got him

690
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 8: right here is an observer.

691
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 15: He was electric.

692
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 9: Mallard, Mister Williams, you've been eating up all this worldwide publicity,

693
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 9: haven't you, Williams, No, I haven't. I'm tired of sitting here,

694
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 9: you telling these folks I fit the profile. Mallard Wasn't

695
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 9: these murders your center stage? Williams, you must be a fool.

696
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 8: I distinctly remember writing down I've got it here for you,

697
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 8: looking up at somebody I don't remember who, making eye

698
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 8: contact and looking at each other like, oh my gosh,

699
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 8: here we go. Wayne became combative and testing, calling the

700
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 8: prosecutor names. He was very, very combative.

701
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:08,240
Speaker 3: As an observer.

702
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,240
Speaker 8: As a juror, you saw a different sign to Wayne Williams.

703
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 8: They did what they set out to do.

704
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, they got Wayne's goat. Mary advised Wayne not to testify,

705
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 4: I mean, what are you going to do? But Wayne

706
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 4: viewed it as I'm just overwhelmed. Anyway, I want to

707
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 4: tell my story. They got his goat, they triggered him,

708
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,879
Speaker 4: and he exploded. He was going to explain it.

709
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 9: The defense may have recouped a little after Williams fought

710
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 9: back tears, later telling the jury he was just sick

711
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 9: and tired of jail, the murder charges, and the harassment

712
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 9: from police and the media. This was the star witness

713
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 9: for the state, Larry Peterson, who for months has slumped

714
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 9: over microscopes looking at fibers and hair taken from the

715
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 9: two bodies. In court, he showed the jury photographs for

716
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 9: the first time, pictures of fibers that he claims are

717
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 9: similar and in his words, they matchine every basic property.

718
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 8: Nine weeks of testimony, the jury came back in what

719
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 8: was under ten hours, as I recall, which is a

720
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 8: very short period of time. They had an early verdict.

721
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 8: All in all, having watched what the jury watched, having

722
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 8: heard everything the jury heard, having talked to the drawers afterwards,

723
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 8: I'm not surprised by their verdict at all. I was

724
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 8: a very young reporter when this was going on. This

725
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 8: was was burned into my brain. It was so impressionable

726
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 8: for me as a young person. I mean, I can

727
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 8: recall the you know, wellman one eighty one b nylon

728
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 8: trilobal fiber made by West Point Pepperel that, according to

729
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 8: the testimony, was found in only I think it was

730
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 8: eighty two helms. This resonated in my head in a

731
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 8: way that a lot of other stories I've covered didn't.

732
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 8: The problem this case as it's complex, and it's lengthy,

733
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 8: and there are many moving parts and many pieces of

734
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 8: the puzzle, and no one piece blows you away. You

735
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 8: can't talk about the bridge and say, Okay, that's it.

736
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 8: You can't talk about the fibers and say that does

737
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 8: it for me. It was this long, slow unfolding of

738
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 8: circumstantial evidence.

739
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 17: When the Williams trial is finally history, it will be

740
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 17: distinguished not only by the sheer bulk of scientific evidence

741
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 17: presented to the jury, but also in the methods that

742
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 17: scientific evidence was collected. Sophisticated new microscopes were brought in,

743
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 17: and controversial testing techniques like neutron activity analysis were used

744
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 17: to compare the fibers and dog here found on some

745
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 17: of the trial victims with those found in William's home.

746
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 4: I remembered closing arguments basically where they use this deal,

747
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 4: you know, there have been no more murders since Wayne

748
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 4: was arrested. Its blooney.

749
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 7: The fence and closing arguments placed a thimble on the

750
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 7: stand in front of the jury and had mentioned that

751
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 7: that all the evidence that literally there's just a thimble

752
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 7: full of evidence, that's all there is, you know, obviously

753
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 7: trying to infer that because it's so small, it has

754
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 7: minimal significance. But you know, I think that if you

755
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 7: take a jury today and you tell them that this

756
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 7: thimble is full of the Black plague and you set

757
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 7: it on the on the Banisher, I think people are

758
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 7: going to immediately recognize that this is not a place

759
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 7: I want to be in. That's something that small. You

760
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 7: think of microbes and viruses and things that are kind

761
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 7: of common today that people fear things that are small

762
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 7: can be very powerful. So really the only explanation is

763
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 7: that either you can say all of this is just

764
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 7: made up. And so we went to a great deal

765
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 7: during the trial to explain how the finders have significance

766
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 7: and why did these particular ones have significant it's.

767
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 6: Government conspiracy.

768
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 7: Well, if there's a government conspiracy, then I guess I'm

769
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 7: part of the government conspiracy because I worked for the

770
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 7: GBL in the crime lab and as a young forensic scientist,

771
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 7: you know, went to these crime scenes. Did these collections

772
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 7: be these comparisons? I think it would be extremely difficult

773
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 7: for anybody to come in and replace all of that

774
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 7: with some kind of contaminated evidence to make it all

775
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 7: match the Williams Home environment.

776
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 6: There's just no way.

777
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 7: So I haven't heard another viable explanation to how it

778
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 7: could be other than that. But I understand it's technical

779
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 7: in a lot of ways, and people who don't want

780
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 7: to believe things are just not going to believe.

781
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 4: It had to be a black judge, had to be

782
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 4: had to be a black killer. All of racism, all

783
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 4: of our prejudices, all of them just came to the

784
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 4: surface in the middle of that, and it was just

785
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 4: a shame.

786
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 7: You know, some people are just they're going to believe

787
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 7: what they want to believe, and nothing you can say

788
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 7: or do is going to dissuade them or convince them

789
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 7: that it's something different than that. But I know what

790
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 7: I know, and I think that if people are being

791
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 7: reasonable and were being level headed and are not being

792
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 7: biased about a preconceived notion of in route, when you

793
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 7: lay it out, you can see it.

794
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 4: Among those kids had died. Could have been a great poet,

795
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 4: could have been a cured cancer, could have been a

796
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:30,800
Speaker 4: Nobel Prize winner.

797
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 3: Who knows, but.

798
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 4: They never had the opportunity.

799
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 1: Even though Wayne was in the hole and couldn't talk,

800
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: I didn't want to stop gathering stories. By this point

801
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 1: in time, I talked to so many people with all

802
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 1: different opinions. I felt that some things were finally cleared

803
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 1: up for me. What really happened to trial? What truly

804
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 1: were the lynch pins of William's case? And how exactly

805
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: trace evidence in fiber? And now aalysis stood up in

806
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: a court of law. After talking to Larry, the fiber

807
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: evidence seems stronger than ever. And right when things seem

808
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: to be making sense, I got a phone call.

809
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:16,399
Speaker 18: You may start the conversation. Now what here is a

810
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 18: womb killed all straighters. I'm finally onto all of everything.

811
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 18: I'm doing great. They let me out yesterday. You know

812
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 18: it was the craziest favorite book. How yesterday it happen?

813
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 18: Will be a separate podcast except but you would never believe.

814
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 18: Maybe it's a good thing that went down because a

815
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 18: lot of role blocks got out on the way and

816
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 18: a lot of wolves got overpay you never believe.

817
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 1: Next time when Atlanta Monster, I talked to Wayne Williams again,

818
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: but this time I have a whole new set of

819
00:44:49,760 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: questions for him. Next time on the season finale of

820
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: Atlanta Monster, that was the.

821
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 7: Only hole that was ever knocked into the fiber evidence.

822
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 7: We have these records that clearly indicate the seventy nine

823
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 7: LGD was not available to the family. But yet we

824
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 7: have trunkliner fibers that match that trunkliner that had bugged

825
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 7: me through post trial.

826
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 6: It always had bugged me.

827
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 8: It was physical evidence, some of the strongest evidence that

828
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 8: was presented in the trial. And I would tell you

829
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 8: that ninety nine point nine percent of your audience has

830
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:38,879
Speaker 8: never heard of it.

831
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 3: Blood Saints.

832
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 19: And when he said I was looking at the car,

833
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 19: and I was looking at the person in the car,

834
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 19: and I was looking at the sketch. I was looking

835
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:54,280
Speaker 19: at the sketch in the back of my man.

836
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:55,720
Speaker 4: They'll be on TV.

837
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 19: I'm gonna get rid of going, he said, I get

838
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 19: you a rad I said, I don't eat no rat.

839
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 19: I heard some car tag, so I can get backed up.

840
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 19: And look, he whooped the car around in the middle

841
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 19: of the street.

842
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,720
Speaker 1: Atlanta Monster is an investigative podcast told week by week,

843
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: with new episodes every Friday, A joint production between How

844
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV. Original music is by Makeup

845
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: and Vanity Set.

846
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 3: Audio archives courtesy.

847
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: Of WSB News Film and Videotape Collection, Brown Media Archives,

848
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 1: University of Georgia Libraries For the latest updates, please visit

849
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: atlantamonster dot com or follow us on social media. One

850
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 1: last thing we've set up in Atlanta Monster tip line.

851
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: Anyone with information, leads, or personal accounts pertaining to the

852
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 1: Atlanta child murders can call.

853
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 3: Us and leave a message.

854
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: The number is one eight three three two eight five

855
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 1: six six sixty seven. Again, that's one eight three three

856
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: two eight five six six sixty seven.

857
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.

858
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 7: A Line Green Rules voice with a purple stripe in

859
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 7: the guise of a fiber that unique. Not knowing how

860
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 7: many Line Green Rolls voices might be out there with

861
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 7: a purple Rations tric, imagine you've seen one