Speaker 1: Call the media.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Jay Kadappen Here, a podcast that has been really,
Speaker 2: really fucking bleak basically since Trump took office. So instead
Speaker 2: instead of doing another episode about how doomed the US is,
Speaker 2: we are taking a I don't know a field trip
Speaker 2: to Argentina to talk about something extremely funny. And that
Speaker 2: extremely funny thing is the Argentinian President Javier Malay promoting
Speaker 2: a meme coin and maybe going down for it and
Speaker 2: with me to talk about this is really the only
Speaker 2: person I could I could have on to talk about
Speaker 2: a crypto thing.
Speaker 3: Who is Molly White? And I'm trying to explain who
Speaker 3: Bally White is.
Speaker 2: My explanation of this is in the same way that
Speaker 2: the great twentieth century marksis theorist C. L. R. James's
Speaker 2: book Beyond a Boundary is both universally considered to be
Speaker 2: the best book ever written about cricket and also literally
Speaker 2: calling it the thing that it is the best book
Speaker 2: ever written about cricket is like a damning insult to
Speaker 2: how good the actual book is. Molly is like probably
Speaker 2: the world's best crypto journalist and writes the newsletter citation
Speaker 2: needed also does Web three is going great, which is amazing.
Speaker 3: Everyone should go listen to it. And MOLLI, welcome to
Speaker 3: the show.
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. What an intro.
Speaker 2: I've been waiting for an opportunity to use that one
Speaker 2: for such a long time. A great book, by the way,
Speaker 2: which everyone should both go subscribe to citation needed and
Speaker 2: also go read Beyond the Boundary because it's great.
Speaker 3: So God, we were talking about this before the show.
Speaker 2: I had planned this episode out before Elon Musk showed
Speaker 2: up at Sea Pac with Javier Malay, like with Malay's
Speaker 2: signature chainsaw, like doing an even weirder version of Malay's
Speaker 2: thinking about like cutting regulation with a chainsaw.
Speaker 4: But Jesus Christ, yeah, what a spectacle that was.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: I like Steve Bannon doing the Nazi salute wasn't even
Speaker 2: the weirdest thing that happened there.
Speaker 3: That was only like day one.
Speaker 4: Well that's overdone now you know everyone's doing it. You
Speaker 4: have to do something new.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to get to wander around the stage
Speaker 2: with a chainsaw like he didn't even do the Malay thing,
Speaker 2: which is you have you have like a book of
Speaker 2: regulations or whatever you cut up with a chance even
Speaker 2: Oh God, so I am very excited to talk about
Speaker 2: the crypto scandal that might finally bring this administration down. However,
Speaker 2: and I am deeply sorry. I already I apologize before
Speaker 2: this recording started. I am deeply sorry. In order to
Speaker 2: explain who Hoavier Malay is, I have to do the
Speaker 2: single most difficult thing I've ever attempted in my like,
Speaker 2: not just in my like my history as a podcaster,
Speaker 2: like that's obviously trivially trube like by my entire history
Speaker 2: doing theoretical work in general, which is I'm about to
Speaker 2: attempt to explain parodeism in under ten minutes on four
Speaker 2: hours of sleep.
Speaker 5: Let's see it here, we fucking go, because because I
Speaker 5: guess that's why, you know why we have to do this, right, Like,
Speaker 5: Malay is able to take power like basically because he
Speaker 5: he's like one of the first candidates in a long
Speaker 5: time to in Argentina to run as an anti paronist.
Speaker 2: And that may seem weird because hold on, wait, shouldn't
Speaker 2: there always be like, Okay, if you have an ideology,
Speaker 2: shouldn't it shouldn't that the person from like either the
Speaker 2: left right side of the political spectrum, you know, be
Speaker 2: running against an ideology and no, no. Up until basically now,
Speaker 2: both the left and the right in ge Argentina were
Speaker 2: both Paronists. So to get an understanding of what paronism is,
Speaker 2: we need to go back not just to who Juan
Speaker 2: Parone is, and we'll we'll we'll get to who Juan Parone,
Speaker 2: who's like the guy this ideology is named after. And
Speaker 2: you know, the ideology is based on like this guy
Speaker 2: returning from exile from the military coups. But we have
Speaker 2: to go back to one of the sort of foundational
Speaker 2: parts of the modern Argentinian state, and that element is
Speaker 2: the fact that Argentina has one of the most militant
Speaker 2: workers movements in the entire world, and has had it
Speaker 2: for about a century. I was on Margaret's show, it
Speaker 2: could happen here, and Jesus Christ not it could happen here.
Speaker 2: Good Lord, you tell them on four hours you're doing great,
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. I haven't even gotten we have
Speaker 2: not gotten to my final analysis of parnasm, where that
Speaker 2: the closest thing I can compare it to is post
Speaker 2: short cultural Revolutions nineteen seventies era China.
Speaker 3: So this is about to get so much more unhitched.
Speaker 3: But a while back.
Speaker 2: I was on Margaret show Cool People Who Did Cool
Speaker 2: Stuff to talk about the second Argentinian giant and narcosentic
Speaker 2: glost uprising in about a span of four years, which
Speaker 2: was the giant anarchist rebellion in Patagonia nineteen twenty one
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty two. And this is the second one because
Speaker 2: the first one was the nineteen nineteen general strike, which
Speaker 2: ends in an event called the Tragic Week where everyone
Speaker 2: sort of gets killed by the military. But you know,
Speaker 2: the fact that there's there's two in different parts of
Speaker 2: the country, enormous and arcosentdic glist uprisings in a span
Speaker 2: of about four years. It's a demonstration of the fact
Speaker 2: that this is one of the most billietant working classes
Speaker 2: in the world, and any political movement that is trying
Speaker 2: to hold power in this country is going to have
Speaker 2: to deal with the fact that the Argentinian working class
Speaker 2: at any moment. Can you know, if you're a factory owner,
Speaker 2: you can wake up one day and there's a black
Speaker 2: flag flying over your factories because your workers have seized it.
Speaker 2: And the sort of culmination of this and the reason
Speaker 2: this is even still relevant today is that like the
Speaker 2: last of what you would I guess you could call
Speaker 2: like the classical twentieth century revolutions. So a line of
Speaker 2: uprising started with like the original formation of the workers
Speaker 2: councils in Russia in nineteen oh five, you know, and
Speaker 2: that continues to like the occupation of the factories and
Speaker 2: italllys you the two Red Years, and like nineteen eighteen,
Speaker 2: nineteen nineteen, like the anarchist parts of the Spanish Revolution,
Speaker 2: with the revolutions in Hungaria and Algeria, like you know,
Speaker 2: all like through sixty eight, like the factor occupations in
Speaker 2: France and Italy, and like all this whole this whole
Speaker 2: lineage of like the thing that happens when you do
Speaker 2: your revolution is workers occupy the factories and try to
Speaker 2: seize control of the country. The last one of those,
Speaker 2: ever was an Argentina in two tho one. Like everywhere
Speaker 2: else in the world, this ship was gone, and then
Speaker 2: randomly in Argentina in two thousand and one, like there's
Speaker 2: a there's a giant one of these uprisings that is,
Speaker 2: you know, only really put down by a sort of
Speaker 2: left Parona's government agreeing to like tell I am a
Speaker 2: have to fuck off, which was like you know, a
Speaker 2: sort of seismic change in the political landscape. But all
Speaker 2: of this is to say that, Okay, if you are
Speaker 2: a capitalist in Argentina and you have to deal with this,
Speaker 2: like what do you do? And the answer is to
Speaker 2: create the most unhinged ideology the world has ever seen
Speaker 2: by uniting socialism and fascism under the single banner of
Speaker 2: Argentinian nationalists class collaboration, which the thing that makes no sense,
Speaker 2: but you have to understand, like paranism is, oh god,
Speaker 2: protoism is simply the weirdest ideology ever. I promise we
Speaker 2: are going to get to the fun crypto stuff, but
Speaker 2: we have to unfortunately do this, We have to do
Speaker 2: our whole work first. And part of this is so
Speaker 2: Juan Perone, the actual guy who who is ideology is
Speaker 2: based off. This is an enormously popular president in like
Speaker 2: the late forties and fifties until he gets overthrown by
Speaker 2: military coup and to get a sense of again like
Speaker 2: how weird this guy is. Like, this is a guy
Speaker 2: who when he comes into power, a bunch of the
Speaker 2: most famous Nazi war criminals and like not just you know,
Speaker 2: obviously like the famous Nazis flee Argentina. There's the whole
Speaker 2: meme about that, right, But I mean we're talking like
Speaker 2: guys who do U stat si, like guys guys who
Speaker 2: literally did the Holocaust by hand, like flee to Argentina
Speaker 2: a Drena's administration, and when a military coup overthrows him,
Speaker 2: they flee the country. So again, like the US beck
Speaker 2: military junta is less pro Nazi than this guy is.
Speaker 2: He is also personal friends with Schae Guavara and considers
Speaker 2: like the Cuban revolution to be like part of his
Speaker 2: like revolutionary project. So a deeply deeply weird, deeply weird guy.
Speaker 2: And the result of this is that, Okay, so you
Speaker 2: have a military dictatorship through like the fifties and the sixties, right,
Speaker 2: and like the entire time there's a tatorship. Not the
Speaker 2: entire night, but most of the time this dictatorship is happening, right,
Speaker 2: the entire political spectrum sort of project all of their
Speaker 2: political energy onto We want Parone back because Paronas remembered
Speaker 2: it as like the guy who like brought workers rights
Speaker 2: to the country and also like gave women the right
Speaker 2: to vote. And also as you remember it as like
Speaker 2: a stable nationalist, right wing government by the right.
Speaker 3: So like everyone on like.
Speaker 2: Both sides the political spectrum project all of their political
Speaker 2: aspirations into the single figure of parn which works because
Speaker 2: he's not in the country, is not not there, so
Speaker 2: you know, and because he's gone, you can project anything
Speaker 2: you want onto him. And this is to a large
Speaker 2: extent the origin of modern populism, right, like the you know,
Speaker 2: my modern populism is the projection of all grievances onto
Speaker 2: one guy and then having that guy come in take power,
Speaker 2: do constant sort of semi political mobilization to like fix
Speaker 2: your issues. And one of the interesting threads here is
Speaker 2: that like the theoretical origin of left populism is very
Speaker 2: specifically Parnism, because one of the theoreticians of like modern
Speaker 2: left populism, one of the most famous ones, is my
Speaker 2: old nemesis, the Argentinian political philosopher and Nesto Leclou and
Speaker 2: his wife chintill moof who were like they were like,
Speaker 2: you know, these are these people were like the the
Speaker 2: theoretical forces behind a bunch of like the European left
Speaker 2: in this sort of euroc communism era, and even up
Speaker 2: until like like pot Daemos in Spain, twenty eleven, Like
Speaker 2: these are the people who are the theoretical force behind
Speaker 2: so much like left electoral stuff in the last like
Speaker 2: fifty years. And it's all from leclou who was who
Speaker 2: was a left Paronist, so all all of all the
Speaker 2: dots are going on the pin board and while he's gone,
Speaker 2: he's this guy that like from an American perspective, it's
Speaker 2: like imagine that like Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump from
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen were both the same guy, and both sides
Speaker 2: were just trying to get this one guy to come
Speaker 2: back to Argentina and like fix everything. So this creates
Speaker 2: like the left and right Paronists. And when Paron comes
Speaker 2: back in the seventies and like immediately gets elected president again,
Speaker 2: the right Paronis just I mean you should literally starts
Speaker 2: slaughtering to left Paronis in the streets and Parone like
Speaker 2: backs the right Paronists against the left, and you would
Speaker 2: think this would destroy left Paranism, but no, no left
Speaker 2: paron It was in power in Argentina until like.
Speaker 3: Malai's election like a few years ago.
Speaker 2: It's so okay, So like why would you still be
Speaker 2: a left Peronis after Parone like had all your boys
Speaker 2: machine guns in the seventies. Part of the reason this
Speaker 2: works also is that he dies and his wife takes
Speaker 2: power and there's like another military coup. So you know,
Speaker 2: he isn't he's not like in power long enough kind
Speaker 2: of for like the disenchantment to really set in. He's
Speaker 2: just he's in power just long enough for people to
Speaker 2: remember it as like the break between the dictatorships. And
Speaker 2: at this point I could finally attempt to go what
Speaker 2: is Paronis? They're like how many minutes of like, oh god,
Speaker 2: I think I've got over my ten minute limit of
Speaker 2: what is But okay, Paron's deal is this right? Like
Speaker 2: so okay, Like, if you're a pronus right in Perona's state,
Speaker 2: everyone is supposed to be equal before the power of
Speaker 2: the Argentinian state, And so if you're a leftist, you
Speaker 2: focus on the everyone is going to be equal part.
Speaker 2: And this means on the one hand, you know, there
Speaker 2: are there are real substantive gains for the Argentinian working
Speaker 2: class that they did get under the you know, the
Speaker 2: sort of previous administrations, and under the junta, right, you know,
Speaker 2: you have like massive expansions of workers' rights and nationalizations
Speaker 2: of a bunch of sectors of the economy. You have
Speaker 2: this like strategy of national development through like import substitution.
Speaker 2: There's there's like a long strain of like feminist perhism
Speaker 2: from you know, his like like human being the administration
Speaker 2: where women got the right to vote. On the other hand,
Speaker 2: if you're a fascist, you focus on the like before
Speaker 2: the power of the Argentinian state part, which means like
Speaker 2: permanent class collaboration. And this this is the part of
Speaker 2: the deal that brings the right in, is like the
Speaker 2: deal is that, okay, So you give the workers all
Speaker 2: this stuff, and you set up these really complicated patriots networks,
Speaker 2: and you know, people have jobs and like they have
Speaker 2: a social safety net at least in theory. And the
Speaker 2: trade off is you will never ever again attempt to
Speaker 2: like occupy a factory or like and like drive these parasites.
Speaker 2: You run your entire life out of power. And the
Speaker 2: second part of that is this like this hardline, unhinged
Speaker 2: right wing like Argentinian nationalism, which is wielded against for example,
Speaker 2: like Argentinian indigenous groups. And so I promise the comparison
Speaker 2: to the to the Long Culture seventies, long Culture Revolution,
Speaker 2: we've reached that point of it, so to understand like
Speaker 2: really what this is, Right, it's an active counterinsurgency that
Speaker 2: is sort of that is waged by the state and
Speaker 2: waged by a bunch of like parts of the social
Speaker 2: sector to unfold this really dynamic and militant workers movement
Speaker 2: into the state in such a way that there can
Speaker 2: still be politics kind of but it won't actually be
Speaker 2: a threat to the ruling class. And my, my sort
Speaker 2: of like closest thing to this is this very very
Speaker 2: weird period in Chinese history between like the end of
Speaker 2: the short Culture Revolution in like nineteen sixty nine and
Speaker 2: the death of Mao in seventy six, where like the
Speaker 2: most unhinged parts of the Culture Revolution are sort of
Speaker 2: over because Mao has set off, you know, so nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty seven, like Mao sets off this uprising in Shanghai.
Speaker 2: He does this deliberately as part of his strategy to
Speaker 2: like game power of the party. The problem is that
Speaker 2: control of Shanghai is no longer in the hands of
Speaker 2: his communist party, like, like, the workers take the city,
Speaker 2: and this is a disaster because they've all been reading
Speaker 2: about the Paris community. I think of the Paris communis
Speaker 2: that they had like direct elections of people. And there's
Speaker 2: a moment I actually like I found this this moment
Speaker 2: of this transcript where Mao is talking to Joe and Laie,
Speaker 2: and Joe and Lai is like, if we let these
Speaker 2: people do direct elections, like it's going to lead to anarchism,
Speaker 2: and Mao is like, oh shit, we have to stop this.
Speaker 2: So what happens is that he wheels together this baffling
Speaker 2: coalition of like student Red Guards and these somebody some
Speaker 2: like loyal like rebel workers factions, along with a bunch
Speaker 2: of like the remaining party bureaucracy and the military, which
Speaker 2: is a coalition comprised of everyone on every side of
Speaker 2: the cultural revolution, right, Like normally the culture Revolution is
Speaker 2: broken down into very roughly, there are rebel factions and
Speaker 2: there are like government factions, right and He's he's pulled
Speaker 2: together a coalition of a bunch of elements of both
Speaker 2: of them with the explicit thing of we are going
Speaker 2: to end the revolution. And in the short run, what
Speaker 2: this does is it leads the back aft of the
Speaker 2: culture Revolution that people don't talk about very much, which
Speaker 2: is instead of like everyone dying because there are rebels
Speaker 2: running around. Everyone's dying because the state is killing everyone
Speaker 2: to like bring everyone back under control. And that's what
Speaker 2: like most of the people die in the Culture Revolution
Speaker 2: are killed, putting the whole thing down. If you wan't
Speaker 2: trying to understand like what Paranaism is, right, it's his
Speaker 2: ideology of bringing together all of the different sort of
Speaker 2: disparate political factions in a moment. Right, You're bringing together
Speaker 2: everyone from like the fascist on the right to like
Speaker 2: the socialist on the left, and you're bringing them into
Speaker 2: the banner of this one guy and the same And
Speaker 2: the reason Mao is able to do this is because,
Speaker 2: like he's Mao, right, every single faction on every side
Speaker 2: of the Culture Revolution, whatever they're trying to do, is
Speaker 2: justifying it in the name of like, oh, this is
Speaker 2: what Mao wants.
Speaker 3: This is what Parona is doing.
Speaker 2: Right, He's drawing together the entire political spectrum in a
Speaker 2: way that he can sort of stabilize power, take it
Speaker 2: away from like the junta, and forge this permanent political collition.
Speaker 2: And this result in like the sort of total dominance.
Speaker 2: This ideology has a Roger tim politics means that like
Speaker 2: basically every election in Argentina until like Malai takes power
Speaker 2: is an election between the left and the right paronists.
Speaker 3: And okay, okay, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2: This finally is the end divide attempt to explain Baronis.
Speaker 2: But we're gonna go to ads when we come back.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna actually do this interview that I've been promising.
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. Okay, we are back. Thank you so
Speaker 2: much for surviving this. This sort of brings us to
Speaker 2: like how he kind of takes power and how you know,
Speaker 2: there's an economic crisis, there's like all this inflation, and
Speaker 2: so he comes in on like I don't know, we
Speaker 2: were talking about this beforehands and we're gonna talk to
Speaker 2: you about this. Like there's all these really weird parallels
Speaker 2: between this and the American election, where it's like except
Speaker 2: the inflation in Argentina is like real.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we just have this sort of like boogeyman version
Speaker 4: of it. They actually have hyperinflation.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean really checked the current inflation rate. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think, I mean it's like several hundred percent right now.
Speaker 2: I think I think it's like three hundred something percent,
Speaker 2: which is actually Lay's entire thing was that he was
Speaker 2: going to stop inflation it's actually it's way worse under
Speaker 2: him than it was.
Speaker 3: The previous like Parna's administration.
Speaker 2: Oh there's one other thing I forgot about it, which
Speaker 2: is like you know, why if you're on the left
Speaker 2: would you take this deal?
Speaker 3: And this also ties into like how this politics? How
Speaker 3: is politics? I took over the state, which is that
Speaker 3: like you know, there were people in Argentina like under
Speaker 3: these Prona's governments got things that are like unimaginable here,
Speaker 3: Like there's one that's important to me, and like obviously
Speaker 3: like it's still you're still living under capitalism. A lot
Speaker 3: of it still sucks.
Speaker 2: But like one of the things that people won under
Speaker 2: these governments was this mandate that one percent of all
Speaker 2: government employees had to be trans, which is like unimaginable here,
Speaker 2: like like even at the height of like you know
Speaker 2: like sort of transacceptance or whatever, like that's there's what
Speaker 2: like that's that's not that's not a thing that's even
Speaker 2: like no one even like thinks to ask about that,
Speaker 2: and like yeah, like I don't know, like yeah, like
Speaker 2: I I might sell my soul to Juan Peron if
Speaker 2: it meant that like none of my trans friends ever
Speaker 2: had to sleep in an alley again like I you know,
Speaker 2: but the wheels fall off of this and they put
Speaker 2: the self described and narco capitalists in power, which is
Speaker 2: this is great and oh god, okay, and this finally
Speaker 2: gets us to the fun part of this. I said
Speaker 2: the top of this episode that like, he did a
Speaker 2: meme coin, right, can you explain what that is?
Speaker 3: Because oh god, yeah.
Speaker 4: So meme coins are a particularly weird part of the
Speaker 4: cryptocurrency world where they basically go out and say that
Speaker 4: this is a token that has no inherent value, which
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, skeptics would argue that that's all cryptocurrency,
Speaker 4: but meme coins very actively embrace that fact, and they're
Speaker 4: often themed around a meme. So, you know, a lot
Speaker 4: of people know of dogecoin, which is themed about the
Speaker 4: you know, around the she but you new dog. They're
Speaker 4: also sometimes just themed around sort of an idea or
Speaker 4: a person or you know, just sort of whatever is
Speaker 4: capturing the public attention at any given moment, and the
Speaker 4: ideas that you buy in and all of the attention
Speaker 4: causes more people to buy in, and if you're really
Speaker 4: good at it or really lucky, you're one of the
Speaker 4: first people to buy in. And so you buy in
Speaker 4: at a low price and then you sell after everyone
Speaker 4: else's bought in and pump the price up higher. That's
Speaker 4: the idea. In reality, it doesn't really work that way.
Speaker 4: It's full of insider trading and market manipulation, and it's
Speaker 4: not sort of a fair game where anyone has a
Speaker 4: chance to be one of those early people. But that's
Speaker 4: sort of the shape of it at least. And so
Speaker 4: I guess that brings us to Libra, which is the
Speaker 4: end coin that Mila was uh convinced I guess to endorse.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think this is interesting thing here too,
Speaker 2: where it's like our government is just like a fucking
Speaker 2: meme coin. Now, Like the thing that is it control
Speaker 2: of the American state is Doge the barber of government eficiency, which.
Speaker 3: Is just the Doge coin meme.
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, we're in sort of a post ironic world
Speaker 4: at this point where crypto and the US government are
Speaker 4: somehow completely intertwined. And I guess we should probably mention
Speaker 4: that just before Trump took office, he launched his own
Speaker 4: meme coin, which was the Trump Token, followed very shortly
Speaker 4: after by his wife launching the Malania token, and they
Speaker 4: did what all good meme coins do, which is that
Speaker 4: they spiked in price based on the original interest and
Speaker 4: then they lost everyone a bunch of money once the
Speaker 4: price came back down because with meme coins, people lose
Speaker 4: interest and move on to the next one. And you know,
Speaker 4: the Trump token shockingly does not have enduring value.
Speaker 2: So yeah, like and that's just interesting thing about it,
Speaker 2: which is like, Okay, this this is just a pup
Speaker 2: them dump scheme. Yes, Like it's just securities fraud, Like
Speaker 2: I we have an entire economy based on security. Everyone
Speaker 2: doing securities fraud and everyone knows that securities fu.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's really cynical. Like if you actually
Speaker 4: talk to people who are deep into meme coins, either
Speaker 4: creating them or trading them, there's this broad acceptance that like,
Speaker 4: oh yeah, yeah, it's totally a scam. People are trying
Speaker 4: to run off with the money after they launch these tokens.
Speaker 4: Like there's all of this mark manipulation happening averaged everyday.
Speaker 4: People who are you know, seeing these stories about people
Speaker 4: buying in super early and then making a million dollars
Speaker 4: out of thin air, like that never happens. Those aren't
Speaker 4: average people. Those are like deeply sophisticated trading bots or
Speaker 4: people with insider knowledge, like everyone knows this and openly
Speaker 4: discusses it, and yet there's still this active participation in
Speaker 4: it because the idea is that like, Okay, sure it's
Speaker 4: a scam, but if you get in on the scam
Speaker 4: early enough, you can be the scammer and you can
Speaker 4: be the one who profits and you know, screw everybody else.
Speaker 4: So it's like this really deeply like cynical world.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I remember you talked about this on Jamie's show about
Speaker 2: like how just deeply nihilistic it all is. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: I think you know, I mean it's not even it
Speaker 2: used to be you had to do metaphors to draw
Speaker 2: a dirrect line between this sort of like the nihilism
Speaker 2: of this shit and like the nihilism of putting like
Speaker 2: ma Lie or like putting Trump and Elon like in office.
Speaker 2: But now it's just I mean, they just do the
Speaker 2: meme coin right, Like there's no.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the mask is like fully off of crypto in
Speaker 4: the memecoin era. I think, like, yeah, it's kind of
Speaker 4: amazing how during the previous crypto boom in like twenty
Speaker 4: twenty and twenty twenty one, there was this phrase that
Speaker 4: everyone was saying, which was wag me, which was like
Speaker 4: we're all gonna make it, and the idea is like
Speaker 4: we're all gonna get rich together, everyone's gonna succeed. And
Speaker 4: now it's like they've totally you never hear that anymore.
Speaker 4: And now it's like, so I will punch you in
Speaker 4: the face and steal your wallet if I get the
Speaker 4: moment opportunity, and that is like broadly accepted throughout the
Speaker 4: crypto world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and like that that is also like
Speaker 2: what Malai has been doing to like everyone in Argentina,
Speaker 2: right like his his things he came in is he I.
Speaker 3: Mean, I got one of the things I remember from
Speaker 3: like the very first.
Speaker 2: Days he was in office, and he was talking about
Speaker 2: all this stuff about how they were going to take
Speaker 2: away well for benefits from anyone who was arrestive at
Speaker 2: protest yeap, and like that didn't. There's been massive protests
Speaker 2: like basically since the moment you took power. But you know,
Speaker 2: like it's just this really deeply cynical, very explicit thing
Speaker 2: of like pitting like everyone in society against each other,
Speaker 2: like you know, like making this argument too, is like
Speaker 2: a crime thic article about this word. It's like they,
Speaker 2: you know, like he's very explicitly making this argument. They're like, well, okay,
Speaker 2: if if you're like a private sector worker and you're
Speaker 2: making no money, the reason you're making no money is
Speaker 2: because wages are too high. In the public sector, it's
Speaker 2: because taxes are too high, and if taxes and corporations
Speaker 2: were lower, they would pay you more.
Speaker 3: And it's like yeah, no, but it fits into.
Speaker 2: This sort of like nihilism of like, yeah, everyone trying
Speaker 2: to grift each other.
Speaker 4: And it's i mean, it's really recognizable here in the
Speaker 4: United States too, where it's the same story of like, oh,
Speaker 4: you're not making enough money because you know, people are
Speaker 4: stealing your tax money and it's going to you know,
Speaker 4: people who don't deserve it, or it's going to these
Speaker 4: programs to fund foreign aid instead of people in the
Speaker 4: United States, or you know, it's like very much trying
Speaker 4: to pit everyone against one another so that you don't
Speaker 4: notice that the person who's actually taking the money is
Speaker 4: the guy who launched the meme coin or the people
Speaker 4: who have the insider information. You know. It's like this
Speaker 4: very direct mirror of what is happening in society, and
Speaker 4: yet it's like so obvious.
Speaker 2: The problem that we have is like I think people
Speaker 2: do probably recognize that, like everyone who's rich got rich
Speaker 2: by fucking robbing people. But instead of trying to do
Speaker 2: anything about that, the solution that's being positive by these
Speaker 2: people is, well, instead of you just being scammed all
Speaker 2: the time, like you could be the scam artist.
Speaker 4: You could be the robbery.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like that's like the new scam instead of like,
Speaker 2: you know, because like organizing is fun looking hard, right,
Speaker 2: and like attempting to fight these people is really hard.
Speaker 2: They have all the money, they have all the power,
Speaker 2: they have the police, they have the military, and so
Speaker 2: you get like this shit on the other hand, sometimes
Speaker 2: in backfires because these people like are like all in
Speaker 2: enough on this fucking meme cooin shit to like run it.
Speaker 2: So yeah, let's let's talk about this specific mean coin, Libra.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So it's kind of a weird example of a
Speaker 4: meme coin, because you know, most meme coins, the idea
Speaker 4: is like this has no intrinsic value, this has no purpose.
Speaker 4: You just gamble on the token price and hope for
Speaker 4: the best. Libra was ostensibly supposed to actually have some
Speaker 4: sort of point to it, making it much unlike most
Speaker 4: of the meme coins, but it was still you know,
Speaker 4: basically a meme coin under the hood. But the idea
Speaker 4: was that like somehow some of the profits from this
Speaker 4: Libra token were going to be put towards supporting Argentine
Speaker 4: entrepreneurs or something like that. There is a sort of
Speaker 4: like social benefit side to it, where which was all
Speaker 4: very vague and like they're very little detail, like you know,
Speaker 4: you never really know what these things what is actually
Speaker 4: supposed to happen. But that was the story, is that
Speaker 4: like this is going to support Argentine entrepreneurs and it's
Speaker 4: going to funnel money to their projects and all this.
Speaker 2: It almost feels like an older kind of scam, Like
Speaker 2: it reminds you of like an NFT scam. We're like, yeah,
Speaker 2: they'll they'll be like, ah, so we're in the future.
Speaker 2: We're going to make a game and you're all gonna play.
Speaker 2: It's like that thing, but they brought it back for
Speaker 2: one last ride.
Speaker 4: Right. It's like the historical like twenty twenty era crypto
Speaker 4: scam where it was like, look, we have this beautiful
Speaker 4: roadmap of all these things we're going to do and
Speaker 4: we're going to give you gifts and rewards and then
Speaker 4: it's like okay, but how is it going to work?
Speaker 4: And they're like, Oh, don't worry about it, we'll tell
Speaker 4: you later. Just give us your money now. And that
Speaker 4: was kind of the idea with the libri coin. But
Speaker 4: basically the team behind it had some folks who were
Speaker 4: involved in something called tech Forum Argentina, which was like
Speaker 4: a group of tech entrepreneurs this sort of like blockchain
Speaker 4: angle to it, who had access to Malay via this
Speaker 4: sort of project that was happening in Argentina where you
Speaker 4: could like pay to come to this conference and Malay
Speaker 4: was going to be there and all this, and so
Speaker 4: they joined forces with some meme coin guys who had
Speaker 4: a lot of experience launching other meme coin projects, including
Speaker 4: the Milania token, including the en Run token, which was
Speaker 4: literally launched by someone who purchased the trademark rights to
Speaker 4: the Enron company.
Speaker 3: I forgot about that.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, that came back to haunt us. And
Speaker 4: so they all joined forces and launched this meme coin
Speaker 4: and they were able to get President Melay to promote
Speaker 4: the meme coin on his Twitter account by saying like,
Speaker 4: here's this Libra project. It's going to support Argentinine entrepreneurs.
Speaker 4: Here's the contract address, buy in, And so everyone got
Speaker 4: super excited because a president had just endorsed a meme coin,
Speaker 4: and he unfortunately was too slow to be the first
Speaker 4: president to do such a thing, with Trump beating him
Speaker 4: to that particular record.
Speaker 2: But I actually, I actually can't believe I blanking on
Speaker 2: his name. The guy in Al Salvador hadn't pulled one yet.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Bi Kelly, I'm like stunned he hadn't done
Speaker 2: it yet.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's probably because he's a real bitcoiner and bitcoin
Speaker 4: maximalists are not a huge fan of any other cryptocurrencies.
Speaker 4: That would be my guess. But yeah, it is a
Speaker 4: little surprising.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 2: Also, okay, there's another run hinged angle here which I
Speaker 2: want to briefly mention because it's extremely funny. The one
Speaker 2: of my good friends Julie pointed to me too, which
Speaker 2: is part of the thing that's like originally that originally
Speaker 2: maybe want to do this is that so one of
Speaker 2: the people who was like involved in like this hookup
Speaker 2: process with like the crypto people was this guy named
Speaker 2: Augustine Lahay, who's like this very very famous conservative writer
Speaker 2: and he's the guy who like introduced the concept of
Speaker 2: gender ideology to Argentina. So he's like one of one
Speaker 2: of what lays like big things, is like being a
Speaker 2: turf all the time, right, And the guy who like
Speaker 2: got all of these people into turf shit is like
Speaker 2: the guy who introduced him to this fucking crypto scamp,
Speaker 2: and he might have to sell him out in order
Speaker 2: to get out.
Speaker 3: Of the cryptos scamp bullshit, which is just Oh god,
Speaker 3: trans people getting our revenge.
Speaker 4: You love to see it.
Speaker 2: Speaking of crypto scams, we should take one more ad
Speaker 2: break before we get into all of the rest of
Speaker 2: this bullshit. We are back to the main story of
Speaker 2: the really unprecedented access to this administration has given the
Speaker 2: crypto people. Can you talk a bit about like who
Speaker 2: the like who the people involved in this are, because
Speaker 2: it's a lot of very very large like players in
Speaker 2: this world.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so, I mean it's still sort of coming out
Speaker 4: like who exactly was involved and to what degree they
Speaker 4: were involved, But it's really starting to look like the
Speaker 4: creation of this meme coin was spearheaded by a bunch
Speaker 4: of guys at a group called Kelsey or ventures that
Speaker 4: has been involved in, like I said, launching a bunch
Speaker 4: of these tokens, and that's sort of a family run operation.
Speaker 4: There's a guy named doctor Tom and then his two sons,
Speaker 4: Hayden and Gideon. I believe that everyone lady named.
Speaker 2: Kitty Chees Rice like, oh no, they're making these guys
Speaker 2: in a lab, and.
Speaker 4: You know they're they're kind of young guys, like Hayden
Speaker 4: is like twenty eight or something like that, which is
Speaker 4: you know, typical for the crypto world, I guess, but yeah,
Speaker 4: and so Hayden Davis is the mastermind behind much of
Speaker 4: the launch, but they're working very closely with a bunch
Speaker 4: of other people in the crypto world. And that's something
Speaker 4: that they sort of have to do with these big,
Speaker 4: splashy token launches. You know, the Trump token had to
Speaker 4: do this as well, where you can't just show up
Speaker 4: as like a president and launch a meme coin and
Speaker 4: expect everything will just work. Because when that many people
Speaker 4: I'll try to buy a token at once, you know,
Speaker 4: you need someone on the other end to actually be
Speaker 4: selling the tokens. And you know, there's all of this
Speaker 4: infrastructure behind it that goes into these launches and so
Speaker 4: you need people to do the market making, and there's
Speaker 4: the liquidity providers, and there's all these you know, projects
Speaker 4: under the hood that are that are involved, and it's
Speaker 4: beginning to look like a lot of those people were
Speaker 4: deeply involved in these token launches in ways that was
Speaker 4: perhaps not entirely proper. Yeah, I know, propriety around me
Speaker 4: coin launches is maybe a lot to expect, but you know,
Speaker 4: we're there sort of talks about how one of the
Speaker 4: co founders of a project called Mediora, which is one
Speaker 4: of these huge liquidity platforms and also a place where
Speaker 4: people are actually buying these tokens, can you.
Speaker 3: Explain like what a liquidity platform is for listeners.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, so it's it's basically sort of what I
Speaker 4: what I suggested, which is that like if you go
Speaker 4: out and launch a token and you don't do any
Speaker 4: press up, when someone goes to buy that token, there's
Speaker 4: or sell that token, there's there's no one on the
Speaker 4: other side of that trade. You need some amount of
Speaker 4: liquidity in the markets when you start off.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they're like there there have to be like
Speaker 2: there have to be like actual tokens that you can
Speaker 2: sell to people.
Speaker 4: Just yeah, and if someone, you know, if someone buys
Speaker 4: one of your tokens, they want to be able to
Speaker 4: sell it to someone as well, and so you need
Speaker 4: to be able to sort of absorb that kind of
Speaker 4: trading without just assuming that, you know, out of thin air.
Speaker 4: These people will exist on both sides of the trade,
Speaker 4: and so there are these projects called liquidity providers where
Speaker 4: you know, sometimes it's like big firms will provide liquidity
Speaker 4: and they'll step in in that role, and that's sort
Speaker 4: of the market maker end of things. Metiora is a
Speaker 4: little bit unusual in that they do like decentralized liquidity provision,
Speaker 4: which I'm not going to go into too much detail
Speaker 4: about because it's very mind numbing.
Speaker 2: But it's also so funny that like the terms that
Speaker 2: have taken hold for these things like are financial terms,
Speaker 2: and it's like, yeah, it's like like this is not
Speaker 2: liquidity in the sense of like does the US government
Speaker 2: have cash on hand to pay something? This is like
Speaker 2: are there these like stupid little weird program things to
Speaker 2: like move other programs around.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's not even dollars, you know, We're we're
Speaker 4: not talking about real dollars here. We're talking about like
Speaker 4: people providing you one fake token in exchange for another
Speaker 4: fake token. But I think they very much intentionally use
Speaker 4: the traditional financial terms to sort of lend a degree
Speaker 4: of legitimacy to it and cover up the fact that, like, oh,
Speaker 4: and if you're a liquidity provider and you just like
Speaker 4: siphon all the liquidity out of there, you've just made
Speaker 4: a ton of money in a total scam. But it
Speaker 4: sounds legit because it's a liquidity provider and it's something
Speaker 4: that exists in like traditional finance. But yeah, so so
Speaker 4: there's this Mediora project where that liquidity operation all happens,
Speaker 4: and you know, Mediora was deeply sort of involved in
Speaker 4: some of these big token launches, like trump token was
Speaker 4: starting out on Mediora. Milania started out there, this Libra
Speaker 4: token started out there, and it seems like the co
Speaker 4: founder was like very closely connected to this Hayden guy.
Speaker 4: He even supposedly introduced the Milania team to Hayden Davis,
Speaker 4: the Kelseier guy. Sounds like, you know, according to some
Speaker 4: of the allegations out there, he was personally involved in
Speaker 4: a lot of this early insider trading that I'm sure
Speaker 4: we'll get into when it comes to libertoken and why
Speaker 4: everything went so wrong, And it seems like there is
Speaker 4: this sort of network of people throughout this meme coin
Speaker 4: world who are running these big platforms and who are
Speaker 4: making connections and all of that, who are personally insider
Speaker 4: trading a lot of these big token launches, so that
Speaker 4: when those people who are buying it up early and
Speaker 4: making all this money, it's like, oh, yeah, that's the
Speaker 4: guy who runs Metiora. This happens so much in the
Speaker 4: crypto world, and I should stop being surprised every time
Speaker 4: it happens. But what happened is when the co founder
Speaker 4: of Metiora stepped down, the other co founder who was
Speaker 4: like previously not really known, stepped up and was like, hey,
Speaker 4: I'm the other co founder, and he released this whole
Speaker 4: statement about how Ben Chow, the co founder who stepped down, was,
Speaker 4: you know, he thought he was totally innocent of all
Speaker 4: this and nothing shady was happening at media or et cetera.
Speaker 4: The other co founder who just like came out of
Speaker 4: the woodwork. He runs Jupiter, which is the other it's
Speaker 4: like the ostensible media or a competitor. It's like, oh yeah,
Speaker 4: it's all just the same people, you know behind the scenes,
Speaker 4: and you know, some of the insiders who were sort
Speaker 4: of whistleblowing on this were saying, oh yeah, the Jupiter
Speaker 4: guys were all insider trading too. The Metiora guys are
Speaker 4: insider trading, like, they're all trading against you. So it's
Speaker 4: really exposed a lot of the rot in this sort
Speaker 4: of meme coin world, in all of this infrastructure and
Speaker 4: the fact that like, oh yeah, yeah, when you're buying
Speaker 4: meme coins like you are playing in a rigged casino,
Speaker 4: which has certainly not done any favors to the meme
Speaker 4: coin reputation, but certainly also to Malays as well.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, let's let's get into like Malay's involvement in this.
Speaker 2: Can you give you lamps to the timeline of this
Speaker 2: because it's.
Speaker 3: It's so funny.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a little whild So unlike the Trump token,
Speaker 4: Mila did not launch this token. He was not the
Speaker 4: mastermind behind it. It's not clear how much he really
Speaker 4: knew about the team behind it or what they were doing,
Speaker 4: but he was certainly convinced to endorse this token and
Speaker 4: you know, pump it up on Twitter and all of this.
Speaker 4: And again, this is not an unusual thing for meme
Speaker 4: coins to do. I mean, it's unusual for them to
Speaker 4: find a president.
Speaker 3: But apparently not now, Like it is true it.
Speaker 4: Was unusual for them to find a present. But you know,
Speaker 4: there's this whole process with meme coins where they try
Speaker 4: to find influential people to talk about them to drive
Speaker 4: the interest in the token. And so they will hire
Speaker 4: celebrities or people who are influential in the crypto world
Speaker 4: or you know, anyone with some degree of a platform
Speaker 4: to promote a token, and ostensibly they're supposed to disclose
Speaker 4: that they are being paid to promote the token. They
Speaker 4: rarely do. Yeah, it is technically illegal, but like rarely
Speaker 4: rarely enforced for for someone to promote a token without disclosure.
Speaker 4: One of the very few cases where it was enforced
Speaker 4: was against Kim Kardashian of AOL.
Speaker 3: Yeah, although that that shit's all gone now.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that was years ago before the sec was
Speaker 4: bought by the crypto companies and so yeah.
Speaker 2: And like I mean they literally like I think, like
Speaker 2: yesterday it was that this? Yeah, was it yesterday? As
Speaker 2: we're recording this, recording this on Friday? Was it yesterday? That?
Speaker 3: The the is it the SEC.
Speaker 4: The SEC that dropped the k c ins Coinbase SEC
Speaker 4: and that was today, Yeah, this morning day, Oh my god.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, And I mean we're seeing this everywhere. But
Speaker 4: the SEC has paused a case against Finance which had
Speaker 4: involved allegations of actual fraud, not just the sort of
Speaker 4: like minor securities love violation.
Speaker 3: Fraud.
Speaker 4: Is also actually have the securities LA violation.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Those those are all, by the way, a bunch of
Speaker 2: like very very like like bys and like coinbas like
Speaker 2: the biggest players in like the regular crypto market.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Finance is the biggest cryptocurrency exchange in the world.
Speaker 4: Coinbase is the biggest cryptocurrency exchange in the United States.
Speaker 4: Coinbase spent over seventy five million dollars on the most
Speaker 4: recent political cycle in the US and now is reaping
Speaker 4: the rewards by having the SEC case against them dropped.
Speaker 4: So I would not expect much in the way of
Speaker 4: SEC enforcement against crypto founders or companies, especially given that
Speaker 4: they have also installed crypto friendly people at the SEC.
Speaker 4: At the CFTC, the CFTC nominee for chair is an
Speaker 4: Andresen Horowitz guy who is advising them on crypto policy.
Speaker 4: Like it's totally rotten now.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, and also, like the actual guy running the government
Speaker 2: right now is Elon Musk, who is you know, like,
Speaker 2: what are their fucking boys?
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the guy who's ostensibly running the project has
Speaker 4: his own meme coin projects, so I suspect he's not
Speaker 4: going to be super keen on anyone enforcing laws against
Speaker 4: meme coin operations either.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Good god, it's such a mess. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Back to Argentina before we get lost in despair.
Speaker 3: Oh god.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So, so basically, you know, the coin launches, Melais,
Speaker 4: you know, fires off a tweet about how this is
Speaker 4: such a great meme coin, and you know, he gives
Speaker 4: the token address so you can all go buy it,
Speaker 4: and then very early on it becomes clear that there
Speaker 4: is some degree of insider trading happening. So, you know,
Speaker 4: the beauty and the horror of crypto is that it's
Speaker 4: all recorded on a public blockchain. People can look at
Speaker 4: who is doing the early trades and these tokens, and
Speaker 4: it fairly quickly becomes apparent that the wallets that are
Speaker 4: that were involved in launching the token, and so the
Speaker 4: ones that are being controlled by the people who you know,
Speaker 4: actually created this token and are promoting it are also
Speaker 4: involved in this early sniping of the token. And sniping
Speaker 4: is when you use crypto trading bots, you know, like
Speaker 4: automated programs to buy up the tokens very early on
Speaker 4: at low, low, low prices, you know, earlier than any
Speaker 4: human could reasonably be expected to go but hit the
Speaker 4: buy button.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the thing that like fucking ticket scalpers do,
Speaker 2: or like, like the reason why you can't buy a
Speaker 2: PS five is that all these trading bots get in
Speaker 2: like immediately exactly.
Speaker 4: It's one hundred percent analogous to that. But in the
Speaker 4: case of these trading bots, you know, often they have
Speaker 4: insider information, they have the contract address before it's public,
Speaker 4: so that they can be like split second on it
Speaker 4: to buy these tokens early, and then they usually dump
Speaker 4: them really early too. So you know, if if Melea
Speaker 4: tweets about a meme coin, the price shoots up within
Speaker 4: minutes of this thing launching, and within minutes these snipers
Speaker 4: sell off and they make millions of dollars, often in profits.
Speaker 4: And it is that selling that often causes the price
Speaker 4: to crash right back down and again causing those average
Speaker 4: people who thought that they were early to be the
Speaker 4: ones basically subsidizing the folks who make millions of dollars
Speaker 4: off these launches, like it's puppin up.
Speaker 3: It's it's literally just a pupp and up, Like it's
Speaker 3: just fraud. Like I just right, I don't know, like
Speaker 3: I just.
Speaker 2: This is my my like old like twenty ten sense
Speaker 2: of ethics emerging here, which apparently doesn't exist in the
Speaker 2: sort of bold new world of like nihilism, Like this
Speaker 2: is just fraud.
Speaker 4: Yeah no, and like people talk about, you know, we
Speaker 4: need cryptoregulations, like you don't need any new regulations. Fraud
Speaker 4: is still fraud, Like stealing from people is illegal. But
Speaker 4: that's like a whole cider point this entire thing.
Speaker 2: When everyone was doing this on Wall Street, it like
Speaker 2: crashed the economy a bunch of times. We were like,
Speaker 2: holy shit, maybe you shouldn't be allowed to do this,
Speaker 2: but I don't know. Capitalism is such that you could
Speaker 2: just buy the governments and now all your filure like
Speaker 2: fraud schemes are legal.
Speaker 4: Right if you do it on the blackchain, crime is
Speaker 4: legal apparently, yeah. But yeah, so you know there's this
Speaker 4: there's this really early scandal where it's like, oh, you know,
Speaker 4: insiders are trading this token. Everyone's calling it a rug pull,
Speaker 4: because that's like the cloak wheal term for when someone
Speaker 4: launches a project and then steals all the money. And
Speaker 4: it certainly looks like that's what's happening, and so Melay
Speaker 4: very quickly distances himself from the project. He deletes the
Speaker 4: tweet that he made and he sends out a new
Speaker 4: tweet saying, basically, I didn't know anything about these guys.
Speaker 4: I don't really know what their project is. I just
Speaker 4: thought it was this, you know, cool thing that was
Speaker 4: gonna support Argentinian businesses. I you know, I renounced all
Speaker 4: affiliation with it, basically, and then he of course like
Speaker 4: blames his political opponents for trying to weaponize this against him,
Speaker 4: and you know, he goes very much shout swinging on people,
Speaker 4: being like, I can't believe you're taking advantage of this
Speaker 4: scam to come after my reputation.
Speaker 3: Oh the pronus made me do it all.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, He's like, this is all your fault somehow.
Speaker 4: So anyway, you know, that all happens, and it sort
Speaker 4: of launches the project into chaos because the way that
Speaker 4: the people on the inside are talking about it a
Speaker 4: huge grain of salt here, because you know, these are
Speaker 4: people who are potentially admitting to their crimes.
Speaker 2: Well it also like these are professional liars, like their
Speaker 2: job is to lie to people for a living.
Speaker 4: Like it's and yeah, and several of the things that
Speaker 4: they've said have already been proven to be untrue. So
Speaker 4: like a huge, huge, huge grain of salt here. But
Speaker 4: their story is that, oh, we were sniping the token yes,
Speaker 4: but it's not bad because we were doing it to
Speaker 4: try to protect people from the other token snipers who
Speaker 4: show up on launches like this, like we didn't.
Speaker 3: No, no, you know what I said.
Speaker 2: We had to do the scam to save you from
Speaker 2: the other people who were trying to do the same scam.
Speaker 4: You're not even exaggerating. That's literally what they said. That's
Speaker 4: so good. And so they come up with this like
Speaker 4: hair brain theory where they're like, Okay, if we snipe
Speaker 4: the tokens early, we can stop up other token snipers
Speaker 4: from accumulating these huge piles of the tokens and then
Speaker 4: dumping them and causing the whole thing to crash. And
Speaker 4: so you know, they will be limited to sniping smaller
Speaker 4: quantities that won't totally wreck the whole you know, chart
Speaker 4: basically and cause it to go to zero, and then
Speaker 4: will take our accumulated pile of tokens and like slowly
Speaker 4: seed it back in to try to stabilize the chart.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's like blatant manipulating market manipulation that they're describing,
Speaker 4: like in defending themselves against allegations that they're committing crimes,
Speaker 4: they're admitting to new crimes. It's like this whole thing.
Speaker 4: But that's the story is that they were like, we
Speaker 4: had to do this to protect the chart. And the
Speaker 4: idea was that, like Malay was going to make this
Speaker 4: video promoting the token even more, and at that point
Speaker 4: they were going to put all this money that they
Speaker 4: had taken back into the project. But of course that
Speaker 4: video never came because Meula had already cut his losses
Speaker 4: and was like, I don't want anything to do with this.
Speaker 4: And so now the guys who launched this token are
Speaker 4: sitting on like ostensibly one hundred million dollars worth of tokens.
Speaker 4: I use the word ostensibly because it's crypto and the
Speaker 4: numbers aren't real, and you know, there's really not one
Speaker 4: hundred million dollars floating around in there.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: People again people talk about how this is like a
Speaker 4: four point five billion dollar crypto scam. There was never
Speaker 4: four point five billion dollars in this. It's all fake money.
Speaker 4: But like the it is true that there were people
Speaker 4: who put real money into this. They got totally scammed,
Speaker 4: basically taken for a ride because they thought that they
Speaker 4: might be able to make money on it, because the
Speaker 4: President endorsed it, because they thought there was this, you know,
Speaker 4: somewhat legitimate scheme behind it to go to Argentinian businesses.
Speaker 4: They lost their money and it all went to this guy,
Speaker 4: Hayden Williams, who is you know, connected to Mela, who
Speaker 4: has some degree of influence with Malay, who claimed in
Speaker 4: text messages that he controls me.
Speaker 3: Lay Oh my god, yeah, but what use the N word?
Speaker 3: By the way, these two did yeh have to like give?
Speaker 2: These people are like this is this is this is
Speaker 2: a white guy using the ED word like.
Speaker 4: Ica is like whiter than I am and using the
Speaker 4: word to say that not great. He said in this
Speaker 4: text message that was leaked that he was sending money
Speaker 4: to Melay's sister, who is very influential and who sort
Speaker 4: of is Mela's right hand sister, you know, sent money
Speaker 4: to her, and that as a result of that, Melee
Speaker 4: will do anything that I want. He'll say what I want,
Speaker 4: He'll tweet what I want, He'll you know, he's my
Speaker 4: puppet basically. Of course, Mela was very unhappy about this characterization,
Speaker 4: but it seems like there's money trading hims behind the scenes,
Speaker 4: even though Meulay was not, you know, behind the token directly.
Speaker 4: And you know, this has all resulted in somewhat of
Speaker 4: a political scandal for Mela, which is both surprising that like,
Speaker 4: of all things that could have caused a political scandal
Speaker 4: for Meula, there are so many things to choose from,
Speaker 4: and this is what it was. But you know, he's
Speaker 4: now facing these these allegations that he was complicit in
Speaker 4: the fraud, that he should be impeached, even you know,
Speaker 4: there's some rumblings among the opposition party about trying to
Speaker 4: start some sort of impeachment proceedings against him, and it's
Speaker 4: all gone very south, very quickly for him.
Speaker 2: I think, God, it really would be so incredibly funny
Speaker 2: if this is the thing that brings him down. I
Speaker 2: don't know if it will, But also, like I don't know,
Speaker 2: this is one of these, Like it e an even
Speaker 2: bigger way than like the Trump plane crashes are like
Speaker 2: a political fucking godsend like handed down to the opposition,
Speaker 2: and the Democrats aren't don't use it right because you
Speaker 2: know they're the Democrats, right, instead of just like doing
Speaker 2: instead of doing a thing I would do, which is
Speaker 2: starting literally every speech with fucking no cops, no kings,
Speaker 2: no crashes, They're like, they're like nore atiunity. Like this
Speaker 2: is like if you were like a Catholic opponent of
Speaker 2: this administration, Like this is like fucking God like reaching
Speaker 2: a giant hand down and going, hey, have this thing
Speaker 2: to be like have this stick to beat over the
Speaker 2: head with.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know, to their credit, I feel like
Speaker 4: Argentinian politicians start taking better advantage of this than US
Speaker 4: politicians have taken of their many opportunities because they are
Speaker 4: calling for you know, impeachment. There have been you know,
Speaker 4: many lawsuits filed against Mela, and you know, there is
Speaker 4: a judge looking into his degree of connections here. Obviously
Speaker 4: there is you know, some amount of corruption over in
Speaker 4: the Argentinian government, and so you know, the degree to
Speaker 4: which they will adequately investigate themselves is somewhat questionable. Let's
Speaker 4: just say yeah, and you know, the likelihood of an
Speaker 4: impeachment proceeding actually you know, getting the votes to go
Speaker 4: to trial is is certainly questionable. But this has been used,
Speaker 4: you know, in a somewhat effective way to attack the
Speaker 4: credibility of melee, which is you know, worth doing.
Speaker 2: And you know, I'll say this about paranism, right, like
Speaker 2: the thing that the thing about paranism is that it's
Speaker 2: like the engine that devours social movements, right like anytime
Speaker 2: social movement comes in the paro to sort of like
Speaker 2: consume it from the inside. But the thing, the thing
Speaker 2: about the way that like proto's and function is just like, okay,
Speaker 2: so they've they've eaten all these social movements.
Speaker 3: But it's not.
Speaker 2: Quite like the US where you can just like disband
Speaker 2: it and make it go away, like you actually have
Speaker 2: to still have have the thing the social movement does.
Speaker 3: And that means that these wetherfuckers could.
Speaker 2: Throw a protest, like whatever else is it about the
Speaker 2: paranas like aren't capable of putting an unbelievable number of
Speaker 2: people into the streets. And I'm really interested to see
Speaker 2: what's going to happen, like this weekend and over the
Speaker 2: coming weeks to see if we see another seventeenth giant
Speaker 2: round of protests, like also specifically about this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I'll be curious too. It's really interesting to me,
Speaker 4: like to what degree this resonates with everyday people, I
Speaker 4: guess in Argentina, because you know, there's a lot to
Speaker 4: complain about with the melee government and so you know,
Speaker 4: it's sort of fascinating to me that people are latching
Speaker 4: onto this, and you know, it's sort of interesting just
Speaker 4: to compare with the United States, where there's a lot
Speaker 4: to complain about with the Trump administration, and you know,
Speaker 4: people were complaining about the meme coin, but by the
Speaker 4: time that was, you know, partly because it was pre
Speaker 4: inauguration and so Trump hadn't started signing all the executive orders,
Speaker 4: and so it was very quickly overshadowed by the other
Speaker 4: sort of blatantly illegal things happening within the Trump administration,
Speaker 4: and so it didn't get that much traction in sort
Speaker 4: of the longer term. So it's interesting to me to
Speaker 4: watch this play out in a different country where you know,
Speaker 4: Milat has been in office for some time now, and
Speaker 4: you know, this has gained at least some degree of
Speaker 4: a foothold, and I'll be curious to see, you know,
Speaker 4: if that endures or not. He's he's sort of trying
Speaker 4: to play it off as like, you know, oh, everyone
Speaker 4: knows crypto is risky. He said something he tried to
Speaker 4: do this like damage control interview on TV where he
Speaker 4: said that basically, like the people who bought this token
Speaker 4: knew they were playing Russian roulette and they got the bullet,
Speaker 4: which is a wild thing to say. Crist Yeah, that's
Speaker 4: just a nutty thing to say, but also very in
Speaker 4: character for him. And you know, he said something in
Speaker 4: then an interview to the effective like, you know, only
Speaker 4: a couple thousand people lost money, what's the chances that
Speaker 4: those people were even Argentinian? Like we shouldn't even care
Speaker 4: if they were, you know, not Argentinian. And so, you know,
Speaker 4: it's it's sort of interesting to watch him try to
Speaker 4: downplay this. It's like, well, yeah, of course people lost money.
Speaker 4: It's a scam, you know, Like, yeah, I guess.
Speaker 2: I think part of the reason this is like a
Speaker 2: real issue for him is that like he really truly
Speaker 2: you know, and this is something that like Trump is
Speaker 2: also doing this, like but he he like really truly
Speaker 2: went out to like his main base of supporters, yeah,
Speaker 2: and was like I'm just going to take you up
Speaker 2: behind a woods end and shoot you and like take
Speaker 2: the money out of your pocket. And like the way
Speaker 2: he's like systematically fucking all of the people who are
Speaker 2: supposed to be his political base, and like like Trump
Speaker 2: is also doing this, but like people sort of like
Speaker 2: haven't set in that this is what's happening. Whereas this
Speaker 2: rug pull thing, it's like this is like the only
Speaker 2: thing that the fucking unhinge right when crypto brote people
Speaker 2: care about, Like this is like the one thing you
Speaker 2: could possibly do to like this the wall.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really interesting to see like what causes crypto
Speaker 4: people to turn on you, because it did happen in
Speaker 4: a much more limited way with Trump, where you know,
Speaker 4: the US crypto movement, I guess that's not the right
Speaker 4: word for it, but the industry or the crypto world
Speaker 4: had really supported Trump very heavily, and you know, they
Speaker 4: had donated to him. But there was also this widespread
Speaker 4: belief among people who traded crypto that Trump was going
Speaker 4: to be good for crypto. He was going to cause
Speaker 4: crypto prices to go up. He was gonna fix all
Speaker 4: these regulations that they thought were holding the industry back
Speaker 4: and all this stuff. And then when Trump came out
Speaker 4: and launched a meme coin, some of his most devoted
Speaker 4: fans among the crypto community were horrified by it, and
Speaker 4: they really responded in a way that I think a
Speaker 4: lot of people didn't expect, which is like, I can't
Speaker 4: believe he's doing this grifty meme coin he's supposed to
Speaker 4: believe in crypto, just use it to steal money from
Speaker 4: its supporters, and so like, there was actually this degree
Speaker 4: of shock that very briefly rattled the crypto world in
Speaker 4: the US as well. And so I think that's, you know,
Speaker 4: sort of interesting to see, is that like, Okay, you're
Speaker 4: allowed to do scams and you know, run your government
Speaker 4: in a way that personally benefits you, as long as
Speaker 4: it's not reflecting poorly on us and it's not taking
Speaker 4: money from us. But as soon as it starts to
Speaker 4: make people, you know, look at scants, at meme coins
Speaker 4: or the crypto world in general, or it starts to
Speaker 4: affect crypto prices, then things turn bad somewhat quickly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder, I don't know, I'm interested in your
Speaker 2: take on this, like how much of that is people
Speaker 2: who are in less meme cony things who are worried
Speaker 2: about like their assets because they at some point like
Speaker 2: have to be able to cash out.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that's a big part of it. Like
Speaker 4: there are factions in crypto where I sort of referred
Speaker 4: to this earlier when we were talking about Achiley, But
Speaker 4: you know, there are bitcoiners who believe that Bitcoin is
Speaker 4: the one true cryptocurrency and that everything else is a
Speaker 4: total scam, and so they are really upset when these
Speaker 4: meme coins come out because they feel like it reflects
Speaker 4: poorly on Bitcoin because people just sort of lump everything together.
Speaker 4: There's sort of a step down from that, which is
Speaker 4: people who think that there are more legitimate cryptocurrencies besides Bitcoin,
Speaker 4: but meme coins are not them. And so there's been
Speaker 4: all this talk recently where they're like, look at all
Speaker 4: these meme coin scams that are getting in the news.
Speaker 4: You know that there was like the Hawktua meme coin
Speaker 4: that totally like stole a news cycle for a minute there,
Speaker 4: and they're terrified that. You know, people are starting to
Speaker 4: think of crypto as meme coins. You know, it's just
Speaker 4: one and the same, and they're like, people are not
Speaker 4: going to think of all these wonderful, legitimate cryptocurrencies and
Speaker 4: all of their use cases if they're thinking about hawktua
Speaker 4: coin and how they ripped off a bunch of people, which, like, personally,
Speaker 4: I think that the reputation is perhaps somewhat deserved, but
Speaker 4: you know, there is this belief among some people that like, oh,
Speaker 4: this is not real crypto and it's giving the rest
Speaker 4: of crypto a bad reputation. And we're actually starting to
Speaker 4: see talk of that in some of the higher places
Speaker 4: where you know, I've been seeing reporting that people are
Speaker 4: talking about the hawktua coin on Capitol Hill, you know,
Speaker 4: like when they're talking about shredding regulations to prevent people
Speaker 4: from running securities frauds. The opposition is like, well, do
Speaker 4: we want hawktua coin everywhere? Like is this really what
Speaker 4: we want? And so it is, you know, affecting the
Speaker 4: public perception and the perception in you know, Congress to
Speaker 4: some extent, which I think is what's really scaring people
Speaker 4: because they've just made these huge inroads with you know,
Speaker 4: all of these now crypto friendly politicians and friendly regulators,
Speaker 4: and now crypto is out here making a fool of
Speaker 4: itself right as you know, new legislation or regulation might
Speaker 4: be installed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this gets me too. I think the thing
Speaker 3: I want to close on.
Speaker 2: Which is, you know, like we actually did successfully as
Speaker 2: a society kill the NFT. Yeah, Like we took that
Speaker 2: all the fucker out back at standard to death.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 2: And I'm wondering whether you think that like this is
Speaker 2: this is a moment where we can like use this
Speaker 2: as a wedge thing to try to like fucking kill
Speaker 2: this entire industry, and how how vulnerable they are to
Speaker 2: like the negative pr rattlings from all of this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think that's a really good point that,
Speaker 4: like the NFT, even as crypto has had a resurgence,
Speaker 4: you know, Bitcoin cross one hundred thousand dollars, NFTs are
Speaker 4: like nowhere to be found, you know, Like the NFT
Speaker 4: platforms are struggling. A couple of them just went out
Speaker 4: of business. And I think it is largely thanks to
Speaker 4: the fact that NFTs became really cringe, you know, like
Speaker 4: everyone was like, oh, those stupid monkey pictures, and that
Speaker 4: had like a really devastating impact on this entire industry
Speaker 4: that was supposed to be like the future of art
Speaker 4: or whatever, and so I think there is that potential
Speaker 4: throughout other portions of the crypto world. I would not
Speaker 4: be shocked to see that happen to these meme coin platforms,
Speaker 4: where they sort of lose their novelty value and people
Speaker 4: just see them as big scams and there's really no point.
Speaker 4: But unfortunately, I don't think that, you know, all of
Speaker 4: crypto can be undermined by the cringe factor or you know,
Speaker 4: the sort of societal distaste for it, because I mean,
Speaker 4: there are people who have bought bitcoin early, who have
Speaker 4: billions of dollars in crypto in bitcoin, they are now
Speaker 4: working in the US government. You know, they have like
Speaker 4: very strong control over very powerful institutions, and so there
Speaker 4: is this countervailing force to keep crypto alive at basically
Speaker 4: any cost, and I think we're seeing them somewhat desperate
Speaker 4: to do that, as we're seeing calls for say a
Speaker 4: bitcoin strategic reserve, which is something that keeps coming up,
Speaker 4: the idea that like the US government should personally stockpile bitcoin,
Speaker 4: which you know, they make a couple of arguments as
Speaker 4: to why they should do that, which are not very
Speaker 4: convincing even to some of the people in the crypto world.
Speaker 4: But the sort of underlying thread through it is that
Speaker 4: if the US government holds a substantial amount of bitcoin,
Speaker 4: they won't be able to afford to let the bitcoin
Speaker 4: price collapse or to do anything that might threaten the
Speaker 4: cryptocurrency industry. And so I think that's why we're seeing
Speaker 4: the attempts to you know, sort of work crypto into
Speaker 4: government checkbooks, into the banking system, into traditional finance. You know,
Speaker 4: people trying to get bitcoin e ETFs into you know,
Speaker 4: your pension plans and your retirement funds and things like
Speaker 4: that is really to make it so endemic and so contagious.
Speaker 4: I guess to the rest of the financial world that
Speaker 4: it's almost like, you know, this this threat that they're
Speaker 4: holding against the government, which is like, all right, if
Speaker 4: you kill us, we'll kill you.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think it's this interesting thing of like, sorry,
Speaker 2: I know, so we were going to close up, Like no,
Speaker 2: this is fun. There's just interesting way in which like
Speaker 2: this seems like the endgame for the entire like tech
Speaker 2: bubble economy is like, you know, like none of these
Speaker 2: fucking companies have every been able to make money, right,
Speaker 2: None of these fucking companies but they all they all
Speaker 2: every like fucking like everything from like like fucking Uber
Speaker 2: to like fucking like Google and Amazon like hemorrhaged money.
Speaker 2: Uber will hemorrhage money until it eventually the bubble pops
Speaker 2: and it dies, right, But like Amazon only really started
Speaker 2: making money, you know, Google was kind of making money.
Speaker 2: Like Amazon only started making money when they started getting
Speaker 2: government contracts for like their cloud computing shit. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: like that like looks like the endgame, Like you know,
Speaker 2: this is this is the thing with like Elon's like
Speaker 2: fucking electric armored vehicle contract is like the only thing
Speaker 2: that can keep the bubble going is just pure stay intervention.
Speaker 2: But that also gives me a little bit of hope
Speaker 2: because I think the thing that's kept this giant bubble
Speaker 2: economy going for like over like a decade and a
Speaker 2: half now has been really really even under the original
Speaker 2: Trump administration, I mean, and the original Talub adminstration kind
Speaker 2: of got bailed out by COVID to some extent, Like
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, like the original Argentinian economic crisis
Speaker 2: was this there's there's a huge wave of currency collapses
Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen where it was sort of contained like
Speaker 2: the IMF did a bailout in while I was trying
Speaker 2: to do a bailout in Argentina, and that like it
Speaker 2: kind of got contained, but it set off a black
Speaker 2: wave uprisings. But like there's been this like really it's
Speaker 2: just taken this really careful financial management and like all
Speaker 2: of these like like like a trillion dollars of like
Speaker 2: overnight repo purchases like every day from the Treasury to
Speaker 2: like make sure there's enough liquidity in the banking industry
Speaker 2: to prevent like the kind of like two thousand and
Speaker 2: eight style collapses. And I think it it takes it's
Speaker 2: taken a really delicate hand, and you know, like I
Speaker 2: don't think it's a good thing. But on their hand,
Speaker 2: like these guys just fire the nuke police, like while
Speaker 2: they were moving a nuke, and I wonder if they
Speaker 2: can actually keep the dance going or if they're just
Speaker 2: gonna or if they're gonna fuck up their bubble economy
Speaker 2: just blow it all up, which might yeah, maybe nuke
Speaker 2: all of these people in the process.
Speaker 4: Maybe. I also think that, you know, if we're talking
Speaker 4: like accelerationism, I think that one of the most interesting
Speaker 4: things that we're going to be seeing now is that
Speaker 4: the crypto industry is long argued that they have all
Speaker 4: this potential. You know, they are just around the corner
Speaker 4: from reinventing the financial system to be wonderful and spectacular.
Speaker 4: And the only reason that they haven't you know, actually
Speaker 4: made true on that is because of those pesky regulators
Speaker 4: that are stopping them from doing all the stuff that
Speaker 4: they want. And so they've spent years now vilifying the regulators,
Speaker 4: claiming that the industry would be so wonderful if these
Speaker 4: regulators would just let them innovate. And now they've got
Speaker 4: the regulators, they're in a world where you know, they
Speaker 4: basically own the regulators. They're all of the enforcement cases
Speaker 4: against them are going to go away, you know, the
Speaker 4: friendliest possible regulations are going to be introduced. And now
Speaker 4: crypto doesn't have that excuse anymore, right, they can't just
Speaker 4: say that the reason we don't do anything useful is
Speaker 4: because these stupid regulators won't let us lend you bitcoin
Speaker 4: or whatever. And so I think, you know, there is
Speaker 4: going to be this moment where people are like, okay,
Speaker 4: so do it now, you know, like do the innovation now,
Speaker 4: and it's going to expose a lot of the popsicle
Speaker 4: sticks and bubble gum that's holding up this crypto industry
Speaker 4: because they don't have that excuse anymore, which I think
Speaker 4: will be interesting. I just hope it doesn't take, like,
Speaker 4: you know, the economic collapse of an entire country to
Speaker 4: prove it.
Speaker 2: Well, my line on this is that like accelerationism as
Speaker 2: an ideology doesn't exist anymore because there's not there's nothing
Speaker 2: you can do to do the acceleration. Yeah right, like
Speaker 2: or so like left accelerationism, like Trump and Elon Musk
Speaker 2: like just have their fucking foot hammering the pedal all
Speaker 2: the way down. We are accelerating as fast as we
Speaker 2: could possibly go, and all we have left is to
Speaker 2: like make sure that the fucking acceleration goes our way
Speaker 2: and up theirs.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, but I yeah, I guess, like you know,
Speaker 4: it's me trying to find a light in the darkness,
Speaker 4: you know, it's like, all right, well, I guess at
Speaker 4: least we might see the crypto industry fall apart.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, look, look, they might bring down the first of
Speaker 2: arco capitalist president.
Speaker 4: So yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know today Argentina tomorrow in the world.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, and I think also just like you know,
Speaker 4: it's interesting to see this uprising and and sort of
Speaker 4: broad distaste formula and everything that he's doing when everything
Speaker 4: that he's doing is so clearly modeled after Donald Trump
Speaker 4: and his fashion for Elon Musk, and so you know,
Speaker 4: to see people sort of turn on that is perhaps
Speaker 4: a little bit instructive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's this is interesting kind of
Speaker 2: like bounce back thing too, because he's like, you know,
Speaker 2: he's somebody say he's modeling himself on Trump one, like
Speaker 2: the first trumpministration, but he got even weirder with it
Speaker 2: than like Trump wanted and now Trump like model yourself back.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like slingshotting but chainsaw.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and and and and I don't know, hope
Speaker 2: hope hopefully the fucking rebound hits them too, and they
Speaker 2: also get the backlash to it, and we yeah, we
Speaker 2: don't all die when they actually said a nukelf because
Speaker 2: we've driven.
Speaker 3: Them out of power already.
Speaker 4: That would be nice.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, Mollie, thank you so much for coming on the
Speaker 2: show and for talking talking with us about this unhinged bullshit,
Speaker 2: and also just genuinely thank you, thank you for reporting
Speaker 2: on all of this shit, because oh my god, it
Speaker 2: is not easy. I don't know how you stay sane.
Speaker 4: I don't pretend I do to give in to the madness. Yeah, yeah, well,
Speaker 4: thank you for having me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and where where can people find your work?
Speaker 4: You can find me at Citation needed dot news. I
Speaker 4: also run web three is going just great, which is
Speaker 4: web three is Going great dot com. And then I'm
Speaker 4: on social media everywhere. You'll find me from either of
Speaker 4: those websites.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we will put links to all of this in
Speaker 3: the description.
Speaker 2: Thank you again, And yeah, I don't know, Go go
Speaker 2: make crypto so uncool that these people have a terrible
Speaker 2: day in panic.
Speaker 4: I'll do my best.
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