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Speaker 1: Call the media.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Jay Kadappen Here, a podcast that has been really,

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Speaker 2: really fucking bleak basically since Trump took office. So instead

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Speaker 2: instead of doing another episode about how doomed the US is,

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Speaker 2: we are taking a I don't know a field trip

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Speaker 2: to Argentina to talk about something extremely funny. And that

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Speaker 2: extremely funny thing is the Argentinian President Javier Malay promoting

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Speaker 2: a meme coin and maybe going down for it and

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Speaker 2: with me to talk about this is really the only

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Speaker 2: person I could I could have on to talk about

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Speaker 2: a crypto thing.

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Speaker 3: Who is Molly White? And I'm trying to explain who

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Speaker 3: Bally White is.

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Speaker 2: My explanation of this is in the same way that

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Speaker 2: the great twentieth century marksis theorist C. L. R. James's

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Speaker 2: book Beyond a Boundary is both universally considered to be

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Speaker 2: the best book ever written about cricket and also literally

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Speaker 2: calling it the thing that it is the best book

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Speaker 2: ever written about cricket is like a damning insult to

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Speaker 2: how good the actual book is. Molly is like probably

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Speaker 2: the world's best crypto journalist and writes the newsletter citation

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Speaker 2: needed also does Web three is going great, which is amazing.

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Speaker 3: Everyone should go listen to it. And MOLLI, welcome to

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Speaker 3: the show.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. What an intro.

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Speaker 2: I've been waiting for an opportunity to use that one

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Speaker 2: for such a long time. A great book, by the way,

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Speaker 2: which everyone should both go subscribe to citation needed and

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Speaker 2: also go read Beyond the Boundary because it's great.

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Speaker 3: So God, we were talking about this before the show.

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Speaker 2: I had planned this episode out before Elon Musk showed

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Speaker 2: up at Sea Pac with Javier Malay, like with Malay's

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Speaker 2: signature chainsaw, like doing an even weirder version of Malay's

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Speaker 2: thinking about like cutting regulation with a chainsaw.

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Speaker 4: But Jesus Christ, yeah, what a spectacle that was.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: I like Steve Bannon doing the Nazi salute wasn't even

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Speaker 2: the weirdest thing that happened there.

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Speaker 3: That was only like day one.

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Speaker 4: Well that's overdone now you know everyone's doing it. You

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Speaker 4: have to do something new.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to get to wander around the stage

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Speaker 2: with a chainsaw like he didn't even do the Malay thing,

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Speaker 2: which is you have you have like a book of

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Speaker 2: regulations or whatever you cut up with a chance even

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Speaker 2: Oh God, so I am very excited to talk about

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Speaker 2: the crypto scandal that might finally bring this administration down. However,

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Speaker 2: and I am deeply sorry. I already I apologize before

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Speaker 2: this recording started. I am deeply sorry. In order to

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Speaker 2: explain who Hoavier Malay is, I have to do the

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Speaker 2: single most difficult thing I've ever attempted in my like,

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Speaker 2: not just in my like my history as a podcaster,

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Speaker 2: like that's obviously trivially trube like by my entire history

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Speaker 2: doing theoretical work in general, which is I'm about to

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Speaker 2: attempt to explain parodeism in under ten minutes on four

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Speaker 2: hours of sleep.

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Speaker 5: Let's see it here, we fucking go, because because I

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Speaker 5: guess that's why, you know why we have to do this, right, Like,

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Speaker 5: Malay is able to take power like basically because he

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Speaker 5: he's like one of the first candidates in a long

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Speaker 5: time to in Argentina to run as an anti paronist.

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Speaker 2: And that may seem weird because hold on, wait, shouldn't

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Speaker 2: there always be like, Okay, if you have an ideology,

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Speaker 2: shouldn't it shouldn't that the person from like either the

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Speaker 2: left right side of the political spectrum, you know, be

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Speaker 2: running against an ideology and no, no. Up until basically now,

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Speaker 2: both the left and the right in ge Argentina were

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Speaker 2: both Paronists. So to get an understanding of what paronism is,

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Speaker 2: we need to go back not just to who Juan

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Speaker 2: Parone is, and we'll we'll we'll get to who Juan Parone,

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Speaker 2: who's like the guy this ideology is named after. And

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Speaker 2: you know, the ideology is based on like this guy

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Speaker 2: returning from exile from the military coups. But we have

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Speaker 2: to go back to one of the sort of foundational

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Speaker 2: parts of the modern Argentinian state, and that element is

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Speaker 2: the fact that Argentina has one of the most militant

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Speaker 2: workers movements in the entire world, and has had it

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Speaker 2: for about a century. I was on Margaret's show, it

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Speaker 2: could happen here, and Jesus Christ not it could happen here.

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Speaker 2: Good Lord, you tell them on four hours you're doing great,

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. I haven't even gotten we have

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Speaker 2: not gotten to my final analysis of parnasm, where that

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Speaker 2: the closest thing I can compare it to is post

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Speaker 2: short cultural Revolutions nineteen seventies era China.

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Speaker 3: So this is about to get so much more unhitched.

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Speaker 3: But a while back.

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Speaker 2: I was on Margaret show Cool People Who Did Cool

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Speaker 2: Stuff to talk about the second Argentinian giant and narcosentic

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Speaker 2: glost uprising in about a span of four years, which

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Speaker 2: was the giant anarchist rebellion in Patagonia nineteen twenty one

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty two. And this is the second one because

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Speaker 2: the first one was the nineteen nineteen general strike, which

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Speaker 2: ends in an event called the Tragic Week where everyone

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Speaker 2: sort of gets killed by the military. But you know,

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Speaker 2: the fact that there's there's two in different parts of

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Speaker 2: the country, enormous and arcosentdic glist uprisings in a span

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Speaker 2: of about four years. It's a demonstration of the fact

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Speaker 2: that this is one of the most billietant working classes

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Speaker 2: in the world, and any political movement that is trying

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Speaker 2: to hold power in this country is going to have

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Speaker 2: to deal with the fact that the Argentinian working class

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Speaker 2: at any moment. Can you know, if you're a factory owner,

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Speaker 2: you can wake up one day and there's a black

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Speaker 2: flag flying over your factories because your workers have seized it.

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Speaker 2: And the sort of culmination of this and the reason

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Speaker 2: this is even still relevant today is that like the

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Speaker 2: last of what you would I guess you could call

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Speaker 2: like the classical twentieth century revolutions. So a line of

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Speaker 2: uprising started with like the original formation of the workers

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Speaker 2: councils in Russia in nineteen oh five, you know, and

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Speaker 2: that continues to like the occupation of the factories and

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Speaker 2: italllys you the two Red Years, and like nineteen eighteen,

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Speaker 2: nineteen nineteen, like the anarchist parts of the Spanish Revolution,

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Speaker 2: with the revolutions in Hungaria and Algeria, like you know,

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Speaker 2: all like through sixty eight, like the factor occupations in

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Speaker 2: France and Italy, and like all this whole this whole

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Speaker 2: lineage of like the thing that happens when you do

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Speaker 2: your revolution is workers occupy the factories and try to

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Speaker 2: seize control of the country. The last one of those,

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Speaker 2: ever was an Argentina in two tho one. Like everywhere

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Speaker 2: else in the world, this ship was gone, and then

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Speaker 2: randomly in Argentina in two thousand and one, like there's

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Speaker 2: a there's a giant one of these uprisings that is,

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Speaker 2: you know, only really put down by a sort of

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Speaker 2: left Parona's government agreeing to like tell I am a

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Speaker 2: have to fuck off, which was like you know, a

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Speaker 2: sort of seismic change in the political landscape. But all

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Speaker 2: of this is to say that, Okay, if you are

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Speaker 2: a capitalist in Argentina and you have to deal with this,

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Speaker 2: like what do you do? And the answer is to

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Speaker 2: create the most unhinged ideology the world has ever seen

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Speaker 2: by uniting socialism and fascism under the single banner of

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Speaker 2: Argentinian nationalists class collaboration, which the thing that makes no sense,

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Speaker 2: but you have to understand, like paranism is, oh god,

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Speaker 2: protoism is simply the weirdest ideology ever. I promise we

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Speaker 2: are going to get to the fun crypto stuff, but

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Speaker 2: we have to unfortunately do this, We have to do

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Speaker 2: our whole work first. And part of this is so

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Speaker 2: Juan Perone, the actual guy who who is ideology is

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Speaker 2: based off. This is an enormously popular president in like

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Speaker 2: the late forties and fifties until he gets overthrown by

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Speaker 2: military coup and to get a sense of again like

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Speaker 2: how weird this guy is. Like, this is a guy

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Speaker 2: who when he comes into power, a bunch of the

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Speaker 2: most famous Nazi war criminals and like not just you know,

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Speaker 2: obviously like the famous Nazis flee Argentina. There's the whole

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Speaker 2: meme about that, right, But I mean we're talking like

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Speaker 2: guys who do U stat si, like guys guys who

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Speaker 2: literally did the Holocaust by hand, like flee to Argentina

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Speaker 2: a Drena's administration, and when a military coup overthrows him,

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Speaker 2: they flee the country. So again, like the US beck

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Speaker 2: military junta is less pro Nazi than this guy is.

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Speaker 2: He is also personal friends with Schae Guavara and considers

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Speaker 2: like the Cuban revolution to be like part of his

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Speaker 2: like revolutionary project. So a deeply deeply weird, deeply weird guy.

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Speaker 2: And the result of this is that, Okay, so you

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Speaker 2: have a military dictatorship through like the fifties and the sixties, right,

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Speaker 2: and like the entire time there's a tatorship. Not the

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Speaker 2: entire night, but most of the time this dictatorship is happening, right,

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Speaker 2: the entire political spectrum sort of project all of their

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Speaker 2: political energy onto We want Parone back because Paronas remembered

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Speaker 2: it as like the guy who like brought workers rights

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Speaker 2: to the country and also like gave women the right

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Speaker 2: to vote. And also as you remember it as like

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Speaker 2: a stable nationalist, right wing government by the right.

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Speaker 3: So like everyone on like.

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Speaker 2: Both sides the political spectrum project all of their political

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Speaker 2: aspirations into the single figure of parn which works because

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Speaker 2: he's not in the country, is not not there, so

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Speaker 2: you know, and because he's gone, you can project anything

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Speaker 2: you want onto him. And this is to a large

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Speaker 2: extent the origin of modern populism, right, like the you know,

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Speaker 2: my modern populism is the projection of all grievances onto

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Speaker 2: one guy and then having that guy come in take power,

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Speaker 2: do constant sort of semi political mobilization to like fix

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Speaker 2: your issues. And one of the interesting threads here is

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Speaker 2: that like the theoretical origin of left populism is very

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Speaker 2: specifically Parnism, because one of the theoreticians of like modern

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Speaker 2: left populism, one of the most famous ones, is my

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Speaker 2: old nemesis, the Argentinian political philosopher and Nesto Leclou and

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Speaker 2: his wife chintill moof who were like they were like,

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Speaker 2: you know, these are these people were like the the

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Speaker 2: theoretical forces behind a bunch of like the European left

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Speaker 2: in this sort of euroc communism era, and even up

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Speaker 2: until like like pot Daemos in Spain, twenty eleven, Like

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Speaker 2: these are the people who are the theoretical force behind

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Speaker 2: so much like left electoral stuff in the last like

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Speaker 2: fifty years. And it's all from leclou who was who

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Speaker 2: was a left Paronist, so all all of all the

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Speaker 2: dots are going on the pin board and while he's gone,

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Speaker 2: he's this guy that like from an American perspective, it's

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Speaker 2: like imagine that like Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump from

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Speaker 2: twenty sixteen were both the same guy, and both sides

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Speaker 2: were just trying to get this one guy to come

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Speaker 2: back to Argentina and like fix everything. So this creates

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Speaker 2: like the left and right Paronists. And when Paron comes

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Speaker 2: back in the seventies and like immediately gets elected president again,

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Speaker 2: the right Paronis just I mean you should literally starts

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Speaker 2: slaughtering to left Paronis in the streets and Parone like

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Speaker 2: backs the right Paronists against the left, and you would

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Speaker 2: think this would destroy left Paranism, but no, no left

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Speaker 2: paron It was in power in Argentina until like.

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Speaker 3: Malai's election like a few years ago.

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Speaker 2: It's so okay, So like why would you still be

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Speaker 2: a left Peronis after Parone like had all your boys

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Speaker 2: machine guns in the seventies. Part of the reason this

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Speaker 2: works also is that he dies and his wife takes

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Speaker 2: power and there's like another military coup. So you know,

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Speaker 2: he isn't he's not like in power long enough kind

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Speaker 2: of for like the disenchantment to really set in. He's

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Speaker 2: just he's in power just long enough for people to

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Speaker 2: remember it as like the break between the dictatorships. And

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Speaker 2: at this point I could finally attempt to go what

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Speaker 2: is Paronis? They're like how many minutes of like, oh god,

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Speaker 2: I think I've got over my ten minute limit of

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Speaker 2: what is But okay, Paron's deal is this right? Like

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Speaker 2: so okay, Like, if you're a pronus right in Perona's state,

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Speaker 2: everyone is supposed to be equal before the power of

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Speaker 2: the Argentinian state, And so if you're a leftist, you

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Speaker 2: focus on the everyone is going to be equal part.

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Speaker 2: And this means on the one hand, you know, there

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Speaker 2: are there are real substantive gains for the Argentinian working

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Speaker 2: class that they did get under the you know, the

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Speaker 2: sort of previous administrations, and under the junta, right, you know,

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Speaker 2: you have like massive expansions of workers' rights and nationalizations

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Speaker 2: of a bunch of sectors of the economy. You have

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Speaker 2: this like strategy of national development through like import substitution.

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Speaker 2: There's there's like a long strain of like feminist perhism

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Speaker 2: from you know, his like like human being the administration

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Speaker 2: where women got the right to vote. On the other hand,

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Speaker 2: if you're a fascist, you focus on the like before

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Speaker 2: the power of the Argentinian state part, which means like

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Speaker 2: permanent class collaboration. And this this is the part of

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Speaker 2: the deal that brings the right in, is like the

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Speaker 2: deal is that, okay, So you give the workers all

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Speaker 2: this stuff, and you set up these really complicated patriots networks,

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Speaker 2: and you know, people have jobs and like they have

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Speaker 2: a social safety net at least in theory. And the

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Speaker 2: trade off is you will never ever again attempt to

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Speaker 2: like occupy a factory or like and like drive these parasites.

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Speaker 2: You run your entire life out of power. And the

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Speaker 2: second part of that is this like this hardline, unhinged

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Speaker 2: right wing like Argentinian nationalism, which is wielded against for example,

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Speaker 2: like Argentinian indigenous groups. And so I promise the comparison

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Speaker 2: to the to the Long Culture seventies, long Culture Revolution,

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Speaker 2: we've reached that point of it, so to understand like

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Speaker 2: really what this is, Right, it's an active counterinsurgency that

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Speaker 2: is sort of that is waged by the state and

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Speaker 2: waged by a bunch of like parts of the social

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Speaker 2: sector to unfold this really dynamic and militant workers movement

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Speaker 2: into the state in such a way that there can

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Speaker 2: still be politics kind of but it won't actually be

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Speaker 2: a threat to the ruling class. And my, my sort

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Speaker 2: of like closest thing to this is this very very

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Speaker 2: weird period in Chinese history between like the end of

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Speaker 2: the short Culture Revolution in like nineteen sixty nine and

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Speaker 2: the death of Mao in seventy six, where like the

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Speaker 2: most unhinged parts of the Culture Revolution are sort of

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Speaker 2: over because Mao has set off, you know, so nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty seven, like Mao sets off this uprising in Shanghai.

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Speaker 2: He does this deliberately as part of his strategy to

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Speaker 2: like game power of the party. The problem is that

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Speaker 2: control of Shanghai is no longer in the hands of

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Speaker 2: his communist party, like, like, the workers take the city,

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Speaker 2: and this is a disaster because they've all been reading

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Speaker 2: about the Paris community. I think of the Paris communis

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Speaker 2: that they had like direct elections of people. And there's

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Speaker 2: a moment I actually like I found this this moment

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Speaker 2: of this transcript where Mao is talking to Joe and Laie,

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Speaker 2: and Joe and Lai is like, if we let these

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Speaker 2: people do direct elections, like it's going to lead to anarchism,

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Speaker 2: and Mao is like, oh shit, we have to stop this.

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Speaker 2: So what happens is that he wheels together this baffling

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Speaker 2: coalition of like student Red Guards and these somebody some

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Speaker 2: like loyal like rebel workers factions, along with a bunch

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Speaker 2: of like the remaining party bureaucracy and the military, which

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Speaker 2: is a coalition comprised of everyone on every side of

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Speaker 2: the cultural revolution, right, Like normally the culture Revolution is

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Speaker 2: broken down into very roughly, there are rebel factions and

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Speaker 2: there are like government factions, right and He's he's pulled

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Speaker 2: together a coalition of a bunch of elements of both

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Speaker 2: of them with the explicit thing of we are going

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Speaker 2: to end the revolution. And in the short run, what

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Speaker 2: this does is it leads the back aft of the

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Speaker 2: culture Revolution that people don't talk about very much, which

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Speaker 2: is instead of like everyone dying because there are rebels

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Speaker 2: running around. Everyone's dying because the state is killing everyone

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Speaker 2: to like bring everyone back under control. And that's what

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Speaker 2: like most of the people die in the Culture Revolution

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Speaker 2: are killed, putting the whole thing down. If you wan't

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Speaker 2: trying to understand like what Paranaism is, right, it's his

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Speaker 2: ideology of bringing together all of the different sort of

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Speaker 2: disparate political factions in a moment. Right, You're bringing together

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Speaker 2: everyone from like the fascist on the right to like

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Speaker 2: the socialist on the left, and you're bringing them into

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Speaker 2: the banner of this one guy and the same And

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Speaker 2: the reason Mao is able to do this is because,

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Speaker 2: like he's Mao, right, every single faction on every side

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Speaker 2: of the Culture Revolution, whatever they're trying to do, is

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Speaker 2: justifying it in the name of like, oh, this is

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Speaker 2: what Mao wants.

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Speaker 3: This is what Parona is doing.

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Speaker 2: Right, He's drawing together the entire political spectrum in a

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Speaker 2: way that he can sort of stabilize power, take it

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Speaker 2: away from like the junta, and forge this permanent political collition.

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Speaker 2: And this result in like the sort of total dominance.

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Speaker 2: This ideology has a Roger tim politics means that like

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Speaker 2: basically every election in Argentina until like Malai takes power

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Speaker 2: is an election between the left and the right paronists.

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Speaker 3: And okay, okay, I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 2: This finally is the end divide attempt to explain Baronis.

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Speaker 2: But we're gonna go to ads when we come back.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna actually do this interview that I've been promising.

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Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. Okay, we are back. Thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for surviving this. This sort of brings us to

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Speaker 2: like how he kind of takes power and how you know,

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Speaker 2: there's an economic crisis, there's like all this inflation, and

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Speaker 2: so he comes in on like I don't know, we

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Speaker 2: were talking about this beforehands and we're gonna talk to

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Speaker 2: you about this. Like there's all these really weird parallels

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Speaker 2: between this and the American election, where it's like except

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Speaker 2: the inflation in Argentina is like real.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we just have this sort of like boogeyman version

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Speaker 4: of it. They actually have hyperinflation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean really checked the current inflation rate. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think, I mean it's like several hundred percent right now.

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Speaker 2: I think I think it's like three hundred something percent,

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Speaker 2: which is actually Lay's entire thing was that he was

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Speaker 2: going to stop inflation it's actually it's way worse under

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Speaker 2: him than it was.

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Speaker 3: The previous like Parna's administration.

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Speaker 2: Oh there's one other thing I forgot about it, which

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Speaker 2: is like you know, why if you're on the left

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Speaker 2: would you take this deal?

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Speaker 3: And this also ties into like how this politics? How

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Speaker 3: is politics? I took over the state, which is that

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Speaker 3: like you know, there were people in Argentina like under

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Speaker 3: these Prona's governments got things that are like unimaginable here,

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Speaker 3: Like there's one that's important to me, and like obviously

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Speaker 3: like it's still you're still living under capitalism. A lot

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Speaker 3: of it still sucks.

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Speaker 2: But like one of the things that people won under

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Speaker 2: these governments was this mandate that one percent of all

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Speaker 2: government employees had to be trans, which is like unimaginable here,

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Speaker 2: like like even at the height of like you know

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Speaker 2: like sort of transacceptance or whatever, like that's there's what

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Speaker 2: like that's that's not that's not a thing that's even

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Speaker 2: like no one even like thinks to ask about that,

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Speaker 2: and like yeah, like I don't know, like yeah, like

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Speaker 2: I I might sell my soul to Juan Peron if

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Speaker 2: it meant that like none of my trans friends ever

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Speaker 2: had to sleep in an alley again like I you know,

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Speaker 2: but the wheels fall off of this and they put

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Speaker 2: the self described and narco capitalists in power, which is

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Speaker 2: this is great and oh god, okay, and this finally

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Speaker 2: gets us to the fun part of this. I said

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Speaker 2: the top of this episode that like, he did a

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Speaker 2: meme coin, right, can you explain what that is?

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Speaker 3: Because oh god, yeah.

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Speaker 4: So meme coins are a particularly weird part of the

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Speaker 4: cryptocurrency world where they basically go out and say that

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Speaker 4: this is a token that has no inherent value, which

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, skeptics would argue that that's all cryptocurrency,

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Speaker 4: but meme coins very actively embrace that fact, and they're

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Speaker 4: often themed around a meme. So, you know, a lot

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Speaker 4: of people know of dogecoin, which is themed about the

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Speaker 4: you know, around the she but you new dog. They're

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Speaker 4: also sometimes just themed around sort of an idea or

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Speaker 4: a person or you know, just sort of whatever is

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Speaker 4: capturing the public attention at any given moment, and the

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Speaker 4: ideas that you buy in and all of the attention

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Speaker 4: causes more people to buy in, and if you're really

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Speaker 4: good at it or really lucky, you're one of the

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Speaker 4: first people to buy in. And so you buy in

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Speaker 4: at a low price and then you sell after everyone

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Speaker 4: else's bought in and pump the price up higher. That's

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Speaker 4: the idea. In reality, it doesn't really work that way.

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Speaker 4: It's full of insider trading and market manipulation, and it's

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Speaker 4: not sort of a fair game where anyone has a

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Speaker 4: chance to be one of those early people. But that's

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Speaker 4: sort of the shape of it at least. And so

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Speaker 4: I guess that brings us to Libra, which is the

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Speaker 4: end coin that Mila was uh convinced I guess to endorse.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think this is interesting thing here too,

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Speaker 2: where it's like our government is just like a fucking

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Speaker 2: meme coin. Now, Like the thing that is it control

387
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Speaker 2: of the American state is Doge the barber of government eficiency, which.

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Speaker 3: Is just the Doge coin meme.

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Speaker 4: Like, yeah, we're in sort of a post ironic world

390
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Speaker 4: at this point where crypto and the US government are

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Speaker 4: somehow completely intertwined. And I guess we should probably mention

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Speaker 4: that just before Trump took office, he launched his own

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Speaker 4: meme coin, which was the Trump Token, followed very shortly

394
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Speaker 4: after by his wife launching the Malania token, and they

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Speaker 4: did what all good meme coins do, which is that

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Speaker 4: they spiked in price based on the original interest and

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Speaker 4: then they lost everyone a bunch of money once the

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Speaker 4: price came back down because with meme coins, people lose

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Speaker 4: interest and move on to the next one. And you know,

400
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Speaker 4: the Trump token shockingly does not have enduring value.

401
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Speaker 2: So yeah, like and that's just interesting thing about it,

402
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:00,679
Speaker 2: which is like, Okay, this this is just a pup

403
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,760
Speaker 2: them dump scheme. Yes, Like it's just securities fraud, Like

404
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 2: I we have an entire economy based on security. Everyone

405
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,520
Speaker 2: doing securities fraud and everyone knows that securities fu.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

407
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Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's really cynical. Like if you actually

408
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Speaker 4: talk to people who are deep into meme coins, either

409
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,840
Speaker 4: creating them or trading them, there's this broad acceptance that like,

410
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,119
Speaker 4: oh yeah, yeah, it's totally a scam. People are trying

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Speaker 4: to run off with the money after they launch these tokens.

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Speaker 4: Like there's all of this mark manipulation happening averaged everyday.

413
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Speaker 4: People who are you know, seeing these stories about people

414
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Speaker 4: buying in super early and then making a million dollars

415
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,200
Speaker 4: out of thin air, like that never happens. Those aren't

416
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,919
Speaker 4: average people. Those are like deeply sophisticated trading bots or

417
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,120
Speaker 4: people with insider knowledge, like everyone knows this and openly

418
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Speaker 4: discusses it, and yet there's still this active participation in

419
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Speaker 4: it because the idea is that like, Okay, sure it's

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Speaker 4: a scam, but if you get in on the scam

421
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Speaker 4: early enough, you can be the scammer and you can

422
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Speaker 4: be the one who profits and you know, screw everybody else.

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Speaker 4: So it's like this really deeply like cynical world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I remember you talked about this on Jamie's show about

426
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Speaker 2: like how just deeply nihilistic it all is. Yeah, and

427
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Speaker 2: I think you know, I mean it's not even it

428
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:19,920
Speaker 2: used to be you had to do metaphors to draw

429
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Speaker 2: a dirrect line between this sort of like the nihilism

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Speaker 2: of this shit and like the nihilism of putting like

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Speaker 2: ma Lie or like putting Trump and Elon like in office.

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Speaker 2: But now it's just I mean, they just do the

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Speaker 2: meme coin right, Like there's no.

434
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, the mask is like fully off of crypto in

435
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 4: the memecoin era. I think, like, yeah, it's kind of

436
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 4: amazing how during the previous crypto boom in like twenty

437
00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,639
Speaker 4: twenty and twenty twenty one, there was this phrase that

438
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 4: everyone was saying, which was wag me, which was like

439
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 4: we're all gonna make it, and the idea is like

440
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,919
Speaker 4: we're all gonna get rich together, everyone's gonna succeed. And

441
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 4: now it's like they've totally you never hear that anymore.

442
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,119
Speaker 4: And now it's like, so I will punch you in

443
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 4: the face and steal your wallet if I get the

444
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 4: moment opportunity, and that is like broadly accepted throughout the

445
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:07,200
Speaker 4: crypto world.

446
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and like that that is also like

447
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,200
Speaker 2: what Malai has been doing to like everyone in Argentina,

448
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 2: right like his his things he came in is he I.

449
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 3: Mean, I got one of the things I remember from

450
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 3: like the very first.

451
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 2: Days he was in office, and he was talking about

452
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 2: all this stuff about how they were going to take

453
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:23,919
Speaker 2: away well for benefits from anyone who was arrestive at

454
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 2: protest yeap, and like that didn't. There's been massive protests

455
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 2: like basically since the moment you took power. But you know,

456
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 2: like it's just this really deeply cynical, very explicit thing

457
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 2: of like pitting like everyone in society against each other,

458
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 2: like you know, like making this argument too, is like

459
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 2: a crime thic article about this word. It's like they,

460
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 2: you know, like he's very explicitly making this argument. They're like, well, okay,

461
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 2: if if you're like a private sector worker and you're

462
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 2: making no money, the reason you're making no money is

463
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 2: because wages are too high. In the public sector, it's

464
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,400
Speaker 2: because taxes are too high, and if taxes and corporations

465
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 2: were lower, they would pay you more.

466
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 3: And it's like yeah, no, but it fits into.

467
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 2: This sort of like nihilism of like, yeah, everyone trying

468
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: to grift each other.

469
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,639
Speaker 4: And it's i mean, it's really recognizable here in the

470
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 4: United States too, where it's the same story of like, oh,

471
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 4: you're not making enough money because you know, people are

472
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,439
Speaker 4: stealing your tax money and it's going to you know,

473
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 4: people who don't deserve it, or it's going to these

474
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 4: programs to fund foreign aid instead of people in the

475
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 4: United States, or you know, it's like very much trying

476
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 4: to pit everyone against one another so that you don't

477
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,119
Speaker 4: notice that the person who's actually taking the money is

478
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 4: the guy who launched the meme coin or the people

479
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 4: who have the insider information. You know. It's like this

480
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 4: very direct mirror of what is happening in society, and

481
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 4: yet it's like so obvious.

482
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 2: The problem that we have is like I think people

483
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 2: do probably recognize that, like everyone who's rich got rich

484
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 2: by fucking robbing people. But instead of trying to do

485
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 2: anything about that, the solution that's being positive by these

486
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 2: people is, well, instead of you just being scammed all

487
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,640
Speaker 2: the time, like you could be the scam artist.

488
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 4: You could be the robbery.

489
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like that's like the new scam instead of like,

490
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 2: you know, because like organizing is fun looking hard, right,

491
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 2: and like attempting to fight these people is really hard.

492
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 2: They have all the money, they have all the power,

493
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 2: they have the police, they have the military, and so

494
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 2: you get like this shit on the other hand, sometimes

495
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 2: in backfires because these people like are like all in

496
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 2: enough on this fucking meme cooin shit to like run it.

497
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 2: So yeah, let's let's talk about this specific mean coin, Libra.

498
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 4: Yeah. So it's kind of a weird example of a

499
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 4: meme coin, because you know, most meme coins, the idea

500
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 4: is like this has no intrinsic value, this has no purpose.

501
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 4: You just gamble on the token price and hope for

502
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 4: the best. Libra was ostensibly supposed to actually have some

503
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 4: sort of point to it, making it much unlike most

504
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 4: of the meme coins, but it was still you know,

505
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 4: basically a meme coin under the hood. But the idea

506
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 4: was that like somehow some of the profits from this

507
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 4: Libra token were going to be put towards supporting Argentine

508
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 4: entrepreneurs or something like that. There is a sort of

509
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 4: like social benefit side to it, where which was all

510
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 4: very vague and like they're very little detail, like you know,

511
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 4: you never really know what these things what is actually

512
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 4: supposed to happen. But that was the story, is that

513
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 4: like this is going to support Argentine entrepreneurs and it's

514
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 4: going to funnel money to their projects and all this.

515
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 2: It almost feels like an older kind of scam, Like

516
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 2: it reminds you of like an NFT scam. We're like, yeah,

517
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 2: they'll they'll be like, ah, so we're in the future.

518
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 2: We're going to make a game and you're all gonna play.

519
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 2: It's like that thing, but they brought it back for

520
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 2: one last ride.

521
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 4: Right. It's like the historical like twenty twenty era crypto

522
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 4: scam where it was like, look, we have this beautiful

523
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 4: roadmap of all these things we're going to do and

524
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 4: we're going to give you gifts and rewards and then

525
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 4: it's like okay, but how is it going to work?

526
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 4: And they're like, Oh, don't worry about it, we'll tell

527
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 4: you later. Just give us your money now. And that

528
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 4: was kind of the idea with the libri coin. But

529
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 4: basically the team behind it had some folks who were

530
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 4: involved in something called tech Forum Argentina, which was like

531
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 4: a group of tech entrepreneurs this sort of like blockchain

532
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 4: angle to it, who had access to Malay via this

533
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 4: sort of project that was happening in Argentina where you

534
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 4: could like pay to come to this conference and Malay

535
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 4: was going to be there and all this, and so

536
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 4: they joined forces with some meme coin guys who had

537
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 4: a lot of experience launching other meme coin projects, including

538
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 4: the Milania token, including the en Run token, which was

539
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 4: literally launched by someone who purchased the trademark rights to

540
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 4: the Enron company.

541
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:31,640
Speaker 3: I forgot about that.

542
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, that came back to haunt us. And

543
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 4: so they all joined forces and launched this meme coin

544
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 4: and they were able to get President Melay to promote

545
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 4: the meme coin on his Twitter account by saying like,

546
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 4: here's this Libra project. It's going to support Argentinine entrepreneurs.

547
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 4: Here's the contract address, buy in, And so everyone got

548
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 4: super excited because a president had just endorsed a meme coin,

549
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 4: and he unfortunately was too slow to be the first

550
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 4: president to do such a thing, with Trump beating him

551
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 4: to that particular record.

552
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 2: But I actually, I actually can't believe I blanking on

553
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 2: his name. The guy in Al Salvador hadn't pulled one yet.

554
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Bi Kelly, I'm like stunned he hadn't done

555
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 2: it yet.

556
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's probably because he's a real bitcoiner and bitcoin

557
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 4: maximalists are not a huge fan of any other cryptocurrencies.

558
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 4: That would be my guess. But yeah, it is a

559
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 4: little surprising.

560
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

561
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: Oh.

562
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 2: Also, okay, there's another run hinged angle here which I

563
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 2: want to briefly mention because it's extremely funny. The one

564
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 2: of my good friends Julie pointed to me too, which

565
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: is part of the thing that's like originally that originally

566
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 2: maybe want to do this is that so one of

567
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 2: the people who was like involved in like this hookup

568
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 2: process with like the crypto people was this guy named

569
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: Augustine Lahay, who's like this very very famous conservative writer

570
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 2: and he's the guy who like introduced the concept of

571
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 2: gender ideology to Argentina. So he's like one of one

572
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 2: of what lays like big things, is like being a

573
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 2: turf all the time, right, And the guy who like

574
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 2: got all of these people into turf shit is like

575
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: the guy who introduced him to this fucking crypto scamp,

576
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: and he might have to sell him out in order

577
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 2: to get out.

578
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 3: Of the cryptos scamp bullshit, which is just Oh god,

579
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 3: trans people getting our revenge.

580
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 4: You love to see it.

581
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 2: Speaking of crypto scams, we should take one more ad

582
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 2: break before we get into all of the rest of

583
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 2: this bullshit. We are back to the main story of

584
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 2: the really unprecedented access to this administration has given the

585
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: crypto people. Can you talk a bit about like who

586
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 2: the like who the people involved in this are, because

587
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 2: it's a lot of very very large like players in

588
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 2: this world.

589
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, so, I mean it's still sort of coming out

590
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 4: like who exactly was involved and to what degree they

591
00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 4: were involved, But it's really starting to look like the

592
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 4: creation of this meme coin was spearheaded by a bunch

593
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 4: of guys at a group called Kelsey or ventures that

594
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 4: has been involved in, like I said, launching a bunch

595
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 4: of these tokens, and that's sort of a family run operation.

596
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 4: There's a guy named doctor Tom and then his two sons,

597
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 4: Hayden and Gideon. I believe that everyone lady named.

598
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 2: Kitty Chees Rice like, oh no, they're making these guys

599
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 2: in a lab, and.

600
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 4: You know they're they're kind of young guys, like Hayden

601
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 4: is like twenty eight or something like that, which is

602
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 4: you know, typical for the crypto world, I guess, but yeah,

603
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 4: and so Hayden Davis is the mastermind behind much of

604
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 4: the launch, but they're working very closely with a bunch

605
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 4: of other people in the crypto world. And that's something

606
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 4: that they sort of have to do with these big,

607
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 4: splashy token launches. You know, the Trump token had to

608
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 4: do this as well, where you can't just show up

609
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 4: as like a president and launch a meme coin and

610
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 4: expect everything will just work. Because when that many people

611
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 4: I'll try to buy a token at once, you know,

612
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 4: you need someone on the other end to actually be

613
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 4: selling the tokens. And you know, there's all of this

614
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 4: infrastructure behind it that goes into these launches and so

615
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 4: you need people to do the market making, and there's

616
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 4: the liquidity providers, and there's all these you know, projects

617
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 4: under the hood that are that are involved, and it's

618
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 4: beginning to look like a lot of those people were

619
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 4: deeply involved in these token launches in ways that was

620
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 4: perhaps not entirely proper. Yeah, I know, propriety around me

621
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 4: coin launches is maybe a lot to expect, but you know,

622
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 4: we're there sort of talks about how one of the

623
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 4: co founders of a project called Mediora, which is one

624
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 4: of these huge liquidity platforms and also a place where

625
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 4: people are actually buying these tokens, can you.

626
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 3: Explain like what a liquidity platform is for listeners.

627
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, so it's it's basically sort of what I

628
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 4: what I suggested, which is that like if you go

629
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 4: out and launch a token and you don't do any

630
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 4: press up, when someone goes to buy that token, there's

631
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 4: or sell that token, there's there's no one on the

632
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 4: other side of that trade. You need some amount of

633
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 4: liquidity in the markets when you start off.

634
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they're like there there have to be like

635
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: there have to be like actual tokens that you can

636
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 2: sell to people.

637
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 4: Just yeah, and if someone, you know, if someone buys

638
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 4: one of your tokens, they want to be able to

639
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 4: sell it to someone as well, and so you need

640
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 4: to be able to sort of absorb that kind of

641
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 4: trading without just assuming that, you know, out of thin air.

642
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 4: These people will exist on both sides of the trade,

643
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 4: and so there are these projects called liquidity providers where

644
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 4: you know, sometimes it's like big firms will provide liquidity

645
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 4: and they'll step in in that role, and that's sort

646
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 4: of the market maker end of things. Metiora is a

647
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 4: little bit unusual in that they do like decentralized liquidity provision,

648
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 4: which I'm not going to go into too much detail

649
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 4: about because it's very mind numbing.

650
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: But it's also so funny that like the terms that

651
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: have taken hold for these things like are financial terms,

652
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 2: and it's like, yeah, it's like like this is not

653
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 2: liquidity in the sense of like does the US government

654
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 2: have cash on hand to pay something? This is like

655
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 2: are there these like stupid little weird program things to

656
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 2: like move other programs around.

657
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's not even dollars, you know, We're we're

658
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 4: not talking about real dollars here. We're talking about like

659
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 4: people providing you one fake token in exchange for another

660
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 4: fake token. But I think they very much intentionally use

661
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 4: the traditional financial terms to sort of lend a degree

662
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 4: of legitimacy to it and cover up the fact that, like, oh,

663
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 4: and if you're a liquidity provider and you just like

664
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 4: siphon all the liquidity out of there, you've just made

665
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 4: a ton of money in a total scam. But it

666
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 4: sounds legit because it's a liquidity provider and it's something

667
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 4: that exists in like traditional finance. But yeah, so so

668
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 4: there's this Mediora project where that liquidity operation all happens,

669
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 4: and you know, Mediora was deeply sort of involved in

670
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 4: some of these big token launches, like trump token was

671
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 4: starting out on Mediora. Milania started out there, this Libra

672
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 4: token started out there, and it seems like the co

673
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 4: founder was like very closely connected to this Hayden guy.

674
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 4: He even supposedly introduced the Milania team to Hayden Davis,

675
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 4: the Kelseier guy. Sounds like, you know, according to some

676
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 4: of the allegations out there, he was personally involved in

677
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 4: a lot of this early insider trading that I'm sure

678
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 4: we'll get into when it comes to libertoken and why

679
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 4: everything went so wrong, And it seems like there is

680
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 4: this sort of network of people throughout this meme coin

681
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 4: world who are running these big platforms and who are

682
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 4: making connections and all of that, who are personally insider

683
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 4: trading a lot of these big token launches, so that

684
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 4: when those people who are buying it up early and

685
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 4: making all this money, it's like, oh, yeah, that's the

686
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 4: guy who runs Metiora. This happens so much in the

687
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 4: crypto world, and I should stop being surprised every time

688
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 4: it happens. But what happened is when the co founder

689
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 4: of Metiora stepped down, the other co founder who was

690
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 4: like previously not really known, stepped up and was like, hey,

691
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 4: I'm the other co founder, and he released this whole

692
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 4: statement about how Ben Chow, the co founder who stepped down, was,

693
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 4: you know, he thought he was totally innocent of all

694
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,879
Speaker 4: this and nothing shady was happening at media or et cetera.

695
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 4: The other co founder who just like came out of

696
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 4: the woodwork. He runs Jupiter, which is the other it's

697
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 4: like the ostensible media or a competitor. It's like, oh yeah,

698
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 4: it's all just the same people, you know behind the scenes,

699
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 4: and you know, some of the insiders who were sort

700
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 4: of whistleblowing on this were saying, oh yeah, the Jupiter

701
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 4: guys were all insider trading too. The Metiora guys are

702
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 4: insider trading, like, they're all trading against you. So it's

703
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 4: really exposed a lot of the rot in this sort

704
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 4: of meme coin world, in all of this infrastructure and

705
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 4: the fact that like, oh yeah, yeah, when you're buying

706
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 4: meme coins like you are playing in a rigged casino,

707
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 4: which has certainly not done any favors to the meme

708
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 4: coin reputation, but certainly also to Malays as well.

709
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 2: Yes, well, let's let's get into like Malay's involvement in this.

710
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 2: Can you give you lamps to the timeline of this

711
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 2: because it's.

712
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 3: It's so funny.

713
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a little whild So unlike the Trump token,

714
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 4: Mila did not launch this token. He was not the

715
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 4: mastermind behind it. It's not clear how much he really

716
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 4: knew about the team behind it or what they were doing,

717
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 4: but he was certainly convinced to endorse this token and

718
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 4: you know, pump it up on Twitter and all of this.

719
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 4: And again, this is not an unusual thing for meme

720
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 4: coins to do. I mean, it's unusual for them to

721
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 4: find a president.

722
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 3: But apparently not now, Like it is true it.

723
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 4: Was unusual for them to find a present. But you know,

724
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 4: there's this whole process with meme coins where they try

725
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 4: to find influential people to talk about them to drive

726
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 4: the interest in the token. And so they will hire

727
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 4: celebrities or people who are influential in the crypto world

728
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 4: or you know, anyone with some degree of a platform

729
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 4: to promote a token, and ostensibly they're supposed to disclose

730
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 4: that they are being paid to promote the token. They

731
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 4: rarely do. Yeah, it is technically illegal, but like rarely

732
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 4: rarely enforced for for someone to promote a token without disclosure.

733
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 4: One of the very few cases where it was enforced

734
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 4: was against Kim Kardashian of AOL.

735
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, although that that shit's all gone now.

736
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that was years ago before the sec was

737
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 4: bought by the crypto companies and so yeah.

738
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 2: And like I mean they literally like I think, like

739
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 2: yesterday it was that this? Yeah, was it yesterday? As

740
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 2: we're recording this, recording this on Friday? Was it yesterday? That?

741
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,240
Speaker 3: The the is it the SEC.

742
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 4: The SEC that dropped the k c ins Coinbase SEC

743
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 4: and that was today, Yeah, this morning day, Oh my god.

744
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, And I mean we're seeing this everywhere. But

745
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 4: the SEC has paused a case against Finance which had

746
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 4: involved allegations of actual fraud, not just the sort of

747
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 4: like minor securities love violation.

748
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:55,240
Speaker 3: Fraud.

749
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 4: Is also actually have the securities LA violation.

750
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 5: Yeah.

751
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 2: Those those are all, by the way, a bunch of

752
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 2: like very very like like bys and like coinbas like

753
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: the biggest players in like the regular crypto market.

754
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, Finance is the biggest cryptocurrency exchange in the world.

755
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 4: Coinbase is the biggest cryptocurrency exchange in the United States.

756
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 4: Coinbase spent over seventy five million dollars on the most

757
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 4: recent political cycle in the US and now is reaping

758
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 4: the rewards by having the SEC case against them dropped.

759
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 4: So I would not expect much in the way of

760
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 4: SEC enforcement against crypto founders or companies, especially given that

761
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 4: they have also installed crypto friendly people at the SEC.

762
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 4: At the CFTC, the CFTC nominee for chair is an

763
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,720
Speaker 4: Andresen Horowitz guy who is advising them on crypto policy.

764
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 4: Like it's totally rotten now.

765
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:43,879
Speaker 3: Yeah.

766
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 2: Well, and also, like the actual guy running the government

767
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 2: right now is Elon Musk, who is you know, like,

768
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 2: what are their fucking boys?

769
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the guy who's ostensibly running the project has

770
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 4: his own meme coin projects, so I suspect he's not

771
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 4: going to be super keen on anyone enforcing laws against

772
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 4: meme coin operations either.

773
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

774
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 3: Good god, it's such a mess. Yeah.

775
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 4: Back to Argentina before we get lost in despair.

776
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 3: Oh god.

777
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 4: Yeah. So, so basically, you know, the coin launches, Melais,

778
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 4: you know, fires off a tweet about how this is

779
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 4: such a great meme coin, and you know, he gives

780
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 4: the token address so you can all go buy it,

781
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 4: and then very early on it becomes clear that there

782
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 4: is some degree of insider trading happening. So, you know,

783
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 4: the beauty and the horror of crypto is that it's

784
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 4: all recorded on a public blockchain. People can look at

785
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 4: who is doing the early trades and these tokens, and

786
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 4: it fairly quickly becomes apparent that the wallets that are

787
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 4: that were involved in launching the token, and so the

788
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 4: ones that are being controlled by the people who you know,

789
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 4: actually created this token and are promoting it are also

790
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 4: involved in this early sniping of the token. And sniping

791
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 4: is when you use crypto trading bots, you know, like

792
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 4: automated programs to buy up the tokens very early on

793
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 4: at low, low, low prices, you know, earlier than any

794
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 4: human could reasonably be expected to go but hit the

795
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 4: buy button.

796
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the thing that like fucking ticket scalpers do,

797
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 2: or like, like the reason why you can't buy a

798
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 2: PS five is that all these trading bots get in

799
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 2: like immediately exactly.

800
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 4: It's one hundred percent analogous to that. But in the

801
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 4: case of these trading bots, you know, often they have

802
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 4: insider information, they have the contract address before it's public,

803
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 4: so that they can be like split second on it

804
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 4: to buy these tokens early, and then they usually dump

805
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 4: them really early too. So you know, if if Melea

806
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 4: tweets about a meme coin, the price shoots up within

807
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 4: minutes of this thing launching, and within minutes these snipers

808
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 4: sell off and they make millions of dollars, often in profits.

809
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 4: And it is that selling that often causes the price

810
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 4: to crash right back down and again causing those average

811
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 4: people who thought that they were early to be the

812
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 4: ones basically subsidizing the folks who make millions of dollars

813
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 4: off these launches, like it's puppin up.

814
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 3: It's it's literally just a pupp and up, Like it's

815
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 3: just fraud. Like I just right, I don't know, like

816
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 3: I just.

817
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,919
Speaker 2: This is my my like old like twenty ten sense

818
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 2: of ethics emerging here, which apparently doesn't exist in the

819
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 2: sort of bold new world of like nihilism, Like this

820
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 2: is just fraud.

821
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 4: Yeah no, and like people talk about, you know, we

822
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 4: need cryptoregulations, like you don't need any new regulations. Fraud

823
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 4: is still fraud, Like stealing from people is illegal. But

824
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 4: that's like a whole cider point this entire thing.

825
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 2: When everyone was doing this on Wall Street, it like

826
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 2: crashed the economy a bunch of times. We were like,

827
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 2: holy shit, maybe you shouldn't be allowed to do this,

828
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 2: but I don't know. Capitalism is such that you could

829
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 2: just buy the governments and now all your filure like

830
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 2: fraud schemes are legal.

831
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 4: Right if you do it on the blackchain, crime is

832
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 4: legal apparently, yeah. But yeah, so you know there's this

833
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 4: there's this really early scandal where it's like, oh, you know,

834
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,479
Speaker 4: insiders are trading this token. Everyone's calling it a rug pull,

835
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 4: because that's like the cloak wheal term for when someone

836
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 4: launches a project and then steals all the money. And

837
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 4: it certainly looks like that's what's happening, and so Melay

838
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 4: very quickly distances himself from the project. He deletes the

839
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 4: tweet that he made and he sends out a new

840
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 4: tweet saying, basically, I didn't know anything about these guys.

841
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 4: I don't really know what their project is. I just

842
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 4: thought it was this, you know, cool thing that was

843
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 4: gonna support Argentinian businesses. I you know, I renounced all

844
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 4: affiliation with it, basically, and then he of course like

845
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 4: blames his political opponents for trying to weaponize this against him,

846
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 4: and you know, he goes very much shout swinging on people,

847
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 4: being like, I can't believe you're taking advantage of this

848
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 4: scam to come after my reputation.

849
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 3: Oh the pronus made me do it all.

850
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, He's like, this is all your fault somehow.

851
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 4: So anyway, you know, that all happens, and it sort

852
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 4: of launches the project into chaos because the way that

853
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 4: the people on the inside are talking about it a

854
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 4: huge grain of salt here, because you know, these are

855
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 4: people who are potentially admitting to their crimes.

856
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,399
Speaker 2: Well it also like these are professional liars, like their

857
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 2: job is to lie to people for a living.

858
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 4: Like it's and yeah, and several of the things that

859
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 4: they've said have already been proven to be untrue. So

860
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 4: like a huge, huge, huge grain of salt here. But

861
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 4: their story is that, oh, we were sniping the token yes,

862
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 4: but it's not bad because we were doing it to

863
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 4: try to protect people from the other token snipers who

864
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 4: show up on launches like this, like we didn't.

865
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 3: No, no, you know what I said.

866
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 2: We had to do the scam to save you from

867
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 2: the other people who were trying to do the same scam.

868
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,720
Speaker 4: You're not even exaggerating. That's literally what they said. That's

869
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 4: so good. And so they come up with this like

870
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,720
Speaker 4: hair brain theory where they're like, Okay, if we snipe

871
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 4: the tokens early, we can stop up other token snipers

872
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 4: from accumulating these huge piles of the tokens and then

873
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 4: dumping them and causing the whole thing to crash. And

874
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 4: so you know, they will be limited to sniping smaller

875
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 4: quantities that won't totally wreck the whole you know, chart

876
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 4: basically and cause it to go to zero, and then

877
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 4: will take our accumulated pile of tokens and like slowly

878
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 4: seed it back in to try to stabilize the chart.

879
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,280
Speaker 4: I mean, it's like blatant manipulating market manipulation that they're describing,

880
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,280
Speaker 4: like in defending themselves against allegations that they're committing crimes,

881
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,439
Speaker 4: they're admitting to new crimes. It's like this whole thing.

882
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 4: But that's the story is that they were like, we

883
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 4: had to do this to protect the chart. And the

884
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 4: idea was that, like Malay was going to make this

885
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 4: video promoting the token even more, and at that point

886
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 4: they were going to put all this money that they

887
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 4: had taken back into the project. But of course that

888
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 4: video never came because Meula had already cut his losses

889
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 4: and was like, I don't want anything to do with this.

890
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 4: And so now the guys who launched this token are

891
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 4: sitting on like ostensibly one hundred million dollars worth of tokens.

892
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 4: I use the word ostensibly because it's crypto and the

893
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 4: numbers aren't real, and you know, there's really not one

894
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 4: hundred million dollars floating around in there.

895
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 2: Yeah.

896
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 4: People again people talk about how this is like a

897
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 4: four point five billion dollar crypto scam. There was never

898
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 4: four point five billion dollars in this. It's all fake money.

899
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 4: But like the it is true that there were people

900
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 4: who put real money into this. They got totally scammed,

901
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 4: basically taken for a ride because they thought that they

902
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 4: might be able to make money on it, because the

903
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 4: President endorsed it, because they thought there was this, you know,

904
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 4: somewhat legitimate scheme behind it to go to Argentinian businesses.

905
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 4: They lost their money and it all went to this guy,

906
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 4: Hayden Williams, who is you know, connected to Mela, who

907
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 4: has some degree of influence with Malay, who claimed in

908
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 4: text messages that he controls me.

909
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 3: Lay Oh my god, yeah, but what use the N word?

910
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 3: By the way, these two did yeh have to like give?

911
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 2: These people are like this is this is this is

912
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 2: a white guy using the ED word like.

913
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 4: Ica is like whiter than I am and using the

914
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 4: word to say that not great. He said in this

915
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 4: text message that was leaked that he was sending money

916
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 4: to Melay's sister, who is very influential and who sort

917
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 4: of is Mela's right hand sister, you know, sent money

918
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 4: to her, and that as a result of that, Melee

919
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 4: will do anything that I want. He'll say what I want,

920
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 4: He'll tweet what I want, He'll you know, he's my

921
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 4: puppet basically. Of course, Mela was very unhappy about this characterization,

922
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 4: but it seems like there's money trading hims behind the scenes,

923
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 4: even though Meulay was not, you know, behind the token directly.

924
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 4: And you know, this has all resulted in somewhat of

925
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 4: a political scandal for Mela, which is both surprising that like,

926
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 4: of all things that could have caused a political scandal

927
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 4: for Meula, there are so many things to choose from,

928
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 4: and this is what it was. But you know, he's

929
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 4: now facing these these allegations that he was complicit in

930
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 4: the fraud, that he should be impeached, even you know,

931
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 4: there's some rumblings among the opposition party about trying to

932
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 4: start some sort of impeachment proceedings against him, and it's

933
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 4: all gone very south, very quickly for him.

934
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 2: I think, God, it really would be so incredibly funny

935
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 2: if this is the thing that brings him down. I

936
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 2: don't know if it will, But also, like I don't know,

937
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 2: this is one of these, Like it e an even

938
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 2: bigger way than like the Trump plane crashes are like

939
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 2: a political fucking godsend like handed down to the opposition,

940
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 2: and the Democrats aren't don't use it right because you

941
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 2: know they're the Democrats, right, instead of just like doing

942
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 2: instead of doing a thing I would do, which is

943
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 2: starting literally every speech with fucking no cops, no kings,

944
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: no crashes, They're like, they're like nore atiunity. Like this

945
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 2: is like if you were like a Catholic opponent of

946
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 2: this administration, Like this is like fucking God like reaching

947
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 2: a giant hand down and going, hey, have this thing

948
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 2: to be like have this stick to beat over the

949
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 2: head with.

950
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know, to their credit, I feel like

951
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 4: Argentinian politicians start taking better advantage of this than US

952
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 4: politicians have taken of their many opportunities because they are

953
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 4: calling for you know, impeachment. There have been you know,

954
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 4: many lawsuits filed against Mela, and you know, there is

955
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 4: a judge looking into his degree of connections here. Obviously

956
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 4: there is you know, some amount of corruption over in

957
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 4: the Argentinian government, and so you know, the degree to

958
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 4: which they will adequately investigate themselves is somewhat questionable. Let's

959
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 4: just say yeah, and you know, the likelihood of an

960
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 4: impeachment proceeding actually you know, getting the votes to go

961
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 4: to trial is is certainly questionable. But this has been used,

962
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 4: you know, in a somewhat effective way to attack the

963
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 4: credibility of melee, which is you know, worth doing.

964
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 2: And you know, I'll say this about paranism, right, like

965
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 2: the thing that the thing about paranism is that it's

966
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 2: like the engine that devours social movements, right like anytime

967
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 2: social movement comes in the paro to sort of like

968
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 2: consume it from the inside. But the thing, the thing

969
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 2: about the way that like proto's and function is just like, okay,

970
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 2: so they've they've eaten all these social movements.

971
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 3: But it's not.

972
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 2: Quite like the US where you can just like disband

973
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 2: it and make it go away, like you actually have

974
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 2: to still have have the thing the social movement does.

975
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 3: And that means that these wetherfuckers could.

976
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 2: Throw a protest, like whatever else is it about the

977
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 2: paranas like aren't capable of putting an unbelievable number of

978
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 2: people into the streets. And I'm really interested to see

979
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 2: what's going to happen, like this weekend and over the

980
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 2: coming weeks to see if we see another seventeenth giant

981
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 2: round of protests, like also specifically about this.

982
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I'll be curious too. It's really interesting to me,

983
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 4: like to what degree this resonates with everyday people, I

984
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 4: guess in Argentina, because you know, there's a lot to

985
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 4: complain about with the melee government and so you know,

986
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 4: it's sort of fascinating to me that people are latching

987
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 4: onto this, and you know, it's sort of interesting just

988
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 4: to compare with the United States, where there's a lot

989
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 4: to complain about with the Trump administration, and you know,

990
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 4: people were complaining about the meme coin, but by the

991
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 4: time that was, you know, partly because it was pre

992
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:06,479
Speaker 4: inauguration and so Trump hadn't started signing all the executive orders,

993
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 4: and so it was very quickly overshadowed by the other

994
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,919
Speaker 4: sort of blatantly illegal things happening within the Trump administration,

995
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 4: and so it didn't get that much traction in sort

996
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 4: of the longer term. So it's interesting to me to

997
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 4: watch this play out in a different country where you know,

998
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 4: Milat has been in office for some time now, and

999
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 4: you know, this has gained at least some degree of

1000
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 4: a foothold, and I'll be curious to see, you know,

1001
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 4: if that endures or not. He's he's sort of trying

1002
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 4: to play it off as like, you know, oh, everyone

1003
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 4: knows crypto is risky. He said something he tried to

1004
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 4: do this like damage control interview on TV where he

1005
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 4: said that basically, like the people who bought this token

1006
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 4: knew they were playing Russian roulette and they got the bullet,

1007
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 4: which is a wild thing to say. Crist Yeah, that's

1008
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 4: just a nutty thing to say, but also very in

1009
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 4: character for him. And you know, he said something in

1010
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 4: then an interview to the effective like, you know, only

1011
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 4: a couple thousand people lost money, what's the chances that

1012
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 4: those people were even Argentinian? Like we shouldn't even care

1013
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 4: if they were, you know, not Argentinian. And so, you know,

1014
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 4: it's it's sort of interesting to watch him try to

1015
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 4: downplay this. It's like, well, yeah, of course people lost money.

1016
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,839
Speaker 4: It's a scam, you know, Like, yeah, I guess.

1017
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 2: I think part of the reason this is like a

1018
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 2: real issue for him is that like he really truly

1019
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 2: you know, and this is something that like Trump is

1020
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,280
Speaker 2: also doing this, like but he he like really truly

1021
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 2: went out to like his main base of supporters, yeah,

1022
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 2: and was like I'm just going to take you up

1023
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 2: behind a woods end and shoot you and like take

1024
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,760
Speaker 2: the money out of your pocket. And like the way

1025
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 2: he's like systematically fucking all of the people who are

1026
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 2: supposed to be his political base, and like like Trump

1027
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 2: is also doing this, but like people sort of like

1028
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 2: haven't set in that this is what's happening. Whereas this

1029
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 2: rug pull thing, it's like this is like the only

1030
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,840
Speaker 2: thing that the fucking unhinge right when crypto brote people

1031
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 2: care about, Like this is like the one thing you

1032
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 2: could possibly do to like this the wall.

1033
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really interesting to see like what causes crypto

1034
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 4: people to turn on you, because it did happen in

1035
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 4: a much more limited way with Trump, where you know,

1036
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 4: the US crypto movement, I guess that's not the right

1037
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:24,800
Speaker 4: word for it, but the industry or the crypto world

1038
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 4: had really supported Trump very heavily, and you know, they

1039
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 4: had donated to him. But there was also this widespread

1040
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 4: belief among people who traded crypto that Trump was going

1041
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 4: to be good for crypto. He was going to cause

1042
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 4: crypto prices to go up. He was gonna fix all

1043
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 4: these regulations that they thought were holding the industry back

1044
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 4: and all this stuff. And then when Trump came out

1045
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,839
Speaker 4: and launched a meme coin, some of his most devoted

1046
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 4: fans among the crypto community were horrified by it, and

1047
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 4: they really responded in a way that I think a

1048
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 4: lot of people didn't expect, which is like, I can't

1049
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 4: believe he's doing this grifty meme coin he's supposed to

1050
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 4: believe in crypto, just use it to steal money from

1051
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 4: its supporters, and so like, there was actually this degree

1052
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 4: of shock that very briefly rattled the crypto world in

1053
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 4: the US as well. And so I think that's, you know,

1054
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 4: sort of interesting to see, is that like, Okay, you're

1055
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 4: allowed to do scams and you know, run your government

1056
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 4: in a way that personally benefits you, as long as

1057
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 4: it's not reflecting poorly on us and it's not taking

1058
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 4: money from us. But as soon as it starts to

1059
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 4: make people, you know, look at scants, at meme coins

1060
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 4: or the crypto world in general, or it starts to

1061
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 4: affect crypto prices, then things turn bad somewhat quickly.

1062
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder, I don't know, I'm interested in your

1063
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 2: take on this, like how much of that is people

1064
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:47,240
Speaker 2: who are in less meme cony things who are worried

1065
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 2: about like their assets because they at some point like

1066
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 2: have to be able to cash out.

1067
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that's a big part of it. Like

1068
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 4: there are factions in crypto where I sort of referred

1069
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 4: to this earlier when we were talking about Achiley, But

1070
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 4: you know, there are bitcoiners who believe that Bitcoin is

1071
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 4: the one true cryptocurrency and that everything else is a

1072
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 4: total scam, and so they are really upset when these

1073
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 4: meme coins come out because they feel like it reflects

1074
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 4: poorly on Bitcoin because people just sort of lump everything together.

1075
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 4: There's sort of a step down from that, which is

1076
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 4: people who think that there are more legitimate cryptocurrencies besides Bitcoin,

1077
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 4: but meme coins are not them. And so there's been

1078
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 4: all this talk recently where they're like, look at all

1079
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 4: these meme coin scams that are getting in the news.

1080
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 4: You know that there was like the Hawktua meme coin

1081
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 4: that totally like stole a news cycle for a minute there,

1082
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 4: and they're terrified that. You know, people are starting to

1083
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 4: think of crypto as meme coins. You know, it's just

1084
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 4: one and the same, and they're like, people are not

1085
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 4: going to think of all these wonderful, legitimate cryptocurrencies and

1086
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 4: all of their use cases if they're thinking about hawktua

1087
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 4: coin and how they ripped off a bunch of people, which, like, personally,

1088
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 4: I think that the reputation is perhaps somewhat deserved, but

1089
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 4: you know, there is this belief among some people that like, oh,

1090
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 4: this is not real crypto and it's giving the rest

1091
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 4: of crypto a bad reputation. And we're actually starting to

1092
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 4: see talk of that in some of the higher places

1093
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 4: where you know, I've been seeing reporting that people are

1094
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 4: talking about the hawktua coin on Capitol Hill, you know,

1095
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 4: like when they're talking about shredding regulations to prevent people

1096
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 4: from running securities frauds. The opposition is like, well, do

1097
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 4: we want hawktua coin everywhere? Like is this really what

1098
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 4: we want? And so it is, you know, affecting the

1099
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 4: public perception and the perception in you know, Congress to

1100
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:38,280
Speaker 4: some extent, which I think is what's really scaring people

1101
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 4: because they've just made these huge inroads with you know,

1102
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:45,399
Speaker 4: all of these now crypto friendly politicians and friendly regulators,

1103
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 4: and now crypto is out here making a fool of

1104
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:52,319
Speaker 4: itself right as you know, new legislation or regulation might

1105
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 4: be installed.

1106
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this gets me too. I think the thing

1107
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 3: I want to close on.

1108
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 2: Which is, you know, like we actually did successfully as

1109
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 2: a society kill the NFT. Yeah, Like we took that

1110
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 2: all the fucker out back at standard to death.

1111
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 4: Yep.

1112
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 2: And I'm wondering whether you think that like this is

1113
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:08,279
Speaker 2: this is a moment where we can like use this

1114
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:10,439
Speaker 2: as a wedge thing to try to like fucking kill

1115
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 2: this entire industry, and how how vulnerable they are to

1116
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 2: like the negative pr rattlings from all of this.

1117
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think that's a really good point that,

1118
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 4: like the NFT, even as crypto has had a resurgence,

1119
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 4: you know, Bitcoin cross one hundred thousand dollars, NFTs are

1120
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 4: like nowhere to be found, you know, Like the NFT

1121
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 4: platforms are struggling. A couple of them just went out

1122
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 4: of business. And I think it is largely thanks to

1123
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 4: the fact that NFTs became really cringe, you know, like

1124
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 4: everyone was like, oh, those stupid monkey pictures, and that

1125
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 4: had like a really devastating impact on this entire industry

1126
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 4: that was supposed to be like the future of art

1127
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 4: or whatever, and so I think there is that potential

1128
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 4: throughout other portions of the crypto world. I would not

1129
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 4: be shocked to see that happen to these meme coin platforms,

1130
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 4: where they sort of lose their novelty value and people

1131
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 4: just see them as big scams and there's really no point.

1132
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 4: But unfortunately, I don't think that, you know, all of

1133
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 4: crypto can be undermined by the cringe factor or you know,

1134
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:17,239
Speaker 4: the sort of societal distaste for it, because I mean,

1135
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 4: there are people who have bought bitcoin early, who have

1136
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 4: billions of dollars in crypto in bitcoin, they are now

1137
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 4: working in the US government. You know, they have like

1138
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 4: very strong control over very powerful institutions, and so there

1139
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 4: is this countervailing force to keep crypto alive at basically

1140
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 4: any cost, and I think we're seeing them somewhat desperate

1141
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 4: to do that, as we're seeing calls for say a

1142
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 4: bitcoin strategic reserve, which is something that keeps coming up,

1143
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 4: the idea that like the US government should personally stockpile bitcoin,

1144
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 4: which you know, they make a couple of arguments as

1145
00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 4: to why they should do that, which are not very

1146
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:04,240
Speaker 4: convincing even to some of the people in the crypto world.

1147
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 4: But the sort of underlying thread through it is that

1148
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 4: if the US government holds a substantial amount of bitcoin,

1149
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 4: they won't be able to afford to let the bitcoin

1150
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 4: price collapse or to do anything that might threaten the

1151
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 4: cryptocurrency industry. And so I think that's why we're seeing

1152
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 4: the attempts to you know, sort of work crypto into

1153
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 4: government checkbooks, into the banking system, into traditional finance. You know,

1154
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 4: people trying to get bitcoin e ETFs into you know,

1155
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 4: your pension plans and your retirement funds and things like

1156
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 4: that is really to make it so endemic and so contagious.

1157
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 4: I guess to the rest of the financial world that

1158
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 4: it's almost like, you know, this this threat that they're

1159
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 4: holding against the government, which is like, all right, if

1160
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 4: you kill us, we'll kill you.

1161
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1162
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 2: And I think it's this interesting thing of like, sorry,

1163
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 2: I know, so we were going to close up, Like no,

1164
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 2: this is fun. There's just interesting way in which like

1165
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,439
Speaker 2: this seems like the endgame for the entire like tech

1166
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 2: bubble economy is like, you know, like none of these

1167
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:08,920
Speaker 2: fucking companies have every been able to make money, right,

1168
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 2: None of these fucking companies but they all they all

1169
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 2: every like fucking like everything from like like fucking Uber

1170
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 2: to like fucking like Google and Amazon like hemorrhaged money.

1171
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 2: Uber will hemorrhage money until it eventually the bubble pops

1172
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 2: and it dies, right, But like Amazon only really started

1173
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:26,919
Speaker 2: making money, you know, Google was kind of making money.

1174
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 2: Like Amazon only started making money when they started getting

1175
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 2: government contracts for like their cloud computing shit. Yeah, and

1176
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 2: like that like looks like the endgame, Like you know,

1177
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 2: this is this is the thing with like Elon's like

1178
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 2: fucking electric armored vehicle contract is like the only thing

1179
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 2: that can keep the bubble going is just pure stay intervention.

1180
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:45,920
Speaker 2: But that also gives me a little bit of hope

1181
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 2: because I think the thing that's kept this giant bubble

1182
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 2: economy going for like over like a decade and a

1183
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 2: half now has been really really even under the original

1184
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 2: Trump administration, I mean, and the original Talub adminstration kind

1185
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 2: of got bailed out by COVID to some extent, Like

1186
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, like the original Argentinian economic crisis

1187
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 2: was this there's there's a huge wave of currency collapses

1188
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,560
Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen where it was sort of contained like

1189
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:09,919
Speaker 2: the IMF did a bailout in while I was trying

1190
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 2: to do a bailout in Argentina, and that like it

1191
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 2: kind of got contained, but it set off a black

1192
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 2: wave uprisings. But like there's been this like really it's

1193
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 2: just taken this really careful financial management and like all

1194
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 2: of these like like like a trillion dollars of like

1195
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 2: overnight repo purchases like every day from the Treasury to

1196
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 2: like make sure there's enough liquidity in the banking industry

1197
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 2: to prevent like the kind of like two thousand and

1198
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 2: eight style collapses. And I think it it takes it's

1199
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 2: taken a really delicate hand, and you know, like I

1200
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 2: don't think it's a good thing. But on their hand,

1201
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 2: like these guys just fire the nuke police, like while

1202
00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 2: they were moving a nuke, and I wonder if they

1203
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 2: can actually keep the dance going or if they're just

1204
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 2: gonna or if they're gonna fuck up their bubble economy

1205
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 2: just blow it all up, which might yeah, maybe nuke

1206
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 2: all of these people in the process.

1207
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 4: Maybe. I also think that, you know, if we're talking

1208
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 4: like accelerationism, I think that one of the most interesting

1209
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 4: things that we're going to be seeing now is that

1210
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 4: the crypto industry is long argued that they have all

1211
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 4: this potential. You know, they are just around the corner

1212
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 4: from reinventing the financial system to be wonderful and spectacular.

1213
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 4: And the only reason that they haven't you know, actually

1214
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 4: made true on that is because of those pesky regulators

1215
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,120
Speaker 4: that are stopping them from doing all the stuff that

1216
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 4: they want. And so they've spent years now vilifying the regulators,

1217
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:30,200
Speaker 4: claiming that the industry would be so wonderful if these

1218
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 4: regulators would just let them innovate. And now they've got

1219
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 4: the regulators, they're in a world where you know, they

1220
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 4: basically own the regulators. They're all of the enforcement cases

1221
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 4: against them are going to go away, you know, the

1222
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 4: friendliest possible regulations are going to be introduced. And now

1223
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 4: crypto doesn't have that excuse anymore, right, they can't just

1224
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:52,880
Speaker 4: say that the reason we don't do anything useful is

1225
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:56,400
Speaker 4: because these stupid regulators won't let us lend you bitcoin

1226
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 4: or whatever. And so I think, you know, there is

1227
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 4: going to be this moment where people are like, okay,

1228
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 4: so do it now, you know, like do the innovation now,

1229
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 4: and it's going to expose a lot of the popsicle

1230
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 4: sticks and bubble gum that's holding up this crypto industry

1231
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 4: because they don't have that excuse anymore, which I think

1232
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 4: will be interesting. I just hope it doesn't take, like,

1233
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 4: you know, the economic collapse of an entire country to

1234
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 4: prove it.

1235
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:26,920
Speaker 2: Well, my line on this is that like accelerationism as

1236
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 2: an ideology doesn't exist anymore because there's not there's nothing

1237
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 2: you can do to do the acceleration. Yeah right, like

1238
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 2: or so like left accelerationism, like Trump and Elon Musk

1239
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 2: like just have their fucking foot hammering the pedal all

1240
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 2: the way down. We are accelerating as fast as we

1241
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 2: could possibly go, and all we have left is to

1242
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 2: like make sure that the fucking acceleration goes our way

1243
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:45,920
Speaker 2: and up theirs.

1244
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, but I yeah, I guess, like you know,

1245
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 4: it's me trying to find a light in the darkness,

1246
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 4: you know, it's like, all right, well, I guess at

1247
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 4: least we might see the crypto industry fall apart.

1248
01:01:59,360 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1249
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 2: Well, look, look, they might bring down the first of

1250
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 2: arco capitalist president.

1251
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 4: So yeah, that's true.

1252
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:10,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know today Argentina tomorrow in the world.

1253
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, and I think also just like you know,

1254
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 4: it's interesting to see this uprising and and sort of

1255
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:21,440
Speaker 4: broad distaste formula and everything that he's doing when everything

1256
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:25,120
Speaker 4: that he's doing is so clearly modeled after Donald Trump

1257
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 4: and his fashion for Elon Musk, and so you know,

1258
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 4: to see people sort of turn on that is perhaps

1259
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 4: a little bit instructive.

1260
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's this is interesting kind of

1261
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:37,680
Speaker 2: like bounce back thing too, because he's like, you know,

1262
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 2: he's somebody say he's modeling himself on Trump one, like

1263
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:43,640
Speaker 2: the first trumpministration, but he got even weirder with it

1264
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 2: than like Trump wanted and now Trump like model yourself back.

1265
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, like slingshotting but chainsaw.

1266
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and and and and I don't know, hope

1267
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 2: hope hopefully the fucking rebound hits them too, and they

1268
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 2: also get the backlash to it, and we yeah, we

1269
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 2: don't all die when they actually said a nukelf because

1270
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 2: we've driven.

1271
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 3: Them out of power already.

1272
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:04,200
Speaker 4: That would be nice.

1273
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1274
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 2: Well, Mollie, thank you so much for coming on the

1275
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 2: show and for talking talking with us about this unhinged bullshit,

1276
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 2: and also just genuinely thank you, thank you for reporting

1277
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 2: on all of this shit, because oh my god, it

1278
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:22,240
Speaker 2: is not easy. I don't know how you stay sane.

1279
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 4: I don't pretend I do to give in to the madness. Yeah, yeah, well,

1280
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:32,040
Speaker 4: thank you for having me.

1281
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and where where can people find your work?

1282
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 4: You can find me at Citation needed dot news. I

1283
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:39,520
Speaker 4: also run web three is going just great, which is

1284
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 4: web three is Going great dot com. And then I'm

1285
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 4: on social media everywhere. You'll find me from either of

1286
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 4: those websites.

1287
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, we will put links to all of this in

1288
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 3: the description.

1289
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 2: Thank you again, And yeah, I don't know, Go go

1290
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:55,240
Speaker 2: make crypto so uncool that these people have a terrible

1291
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 2: day in panic.

1292
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 4: I'll do my best.

1293
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Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

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Speaker 1: Coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.

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Speaker 3: Listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 1: You can now find sources for it could Happen here

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Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.