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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly john Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds.

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Speaker 2: And Mike Johnson says the House will investigate the January

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Speaker 2: sixth Committee. We have such a great show for you

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Speaker 2: today as we start to come back from our vacation,

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Speaker 2: Heathens Emily Atkin stumps by to explain to us where

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Speaker 2: we stand on climate change going into the Trump administration.

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Speaker 2: But first we have MSNBC contributor Charlie Sykes on the

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Speaker 2: chaos and the GOP going into this administration.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to back to Fast Politics. Charlie sikes.

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Speaker 3: Wow, I am honored the very first one for this

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Speaker 3: year because twenty twenty five is going to be Molly,

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Speaker 3: It's going to be a hell of a ride.

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Speaker 1: It was like New Year's I was like, I am

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Speaker 1: really not convinced that twenty twenty five will be better

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Speaker 1: than twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it's got to be better, because twenty twenty four

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Speaker 3: was so awful. That was it, you pronounced it. I'm

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Speaker 3: not going to even try now. Twenty twenty four was

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Speaker 3: pretty brutale. We know what's going to happen a little

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Speaker 3: bit in twenty twenty five. I hope that people have

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Speaker 3: charged up their batteries again. I hope we remember to

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Speaker 3: pace ourselves because I think the issues are going to

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Speaker 3: be pretty crystal clear this year.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is true, it is It's hard, but let's

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Speaker 1: we have not podcasted since right before Christmas. So I

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Speaker 1: am wondering right at during the Christmas break because Trump

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Speaker 1: world is just forever and ever and there are no vacations.

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Speaker 1: There erupted a lot of fighting over H one B

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Speaker 1: one visas the lifeblood of cheap, very educated labor in

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Speaker 1: Silicon Valley. Not surprisingly, Elon is pro Maga is anti Now.

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Speaker 3: This was really interesting because it's a core issue for MAGA,

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Speaker 3: and it's a fundamental It's a fundamental division. There's some

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Speaker 3: real substance here, and there's a It reminds us that

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Speaker 3: there's something inherently st able about a populist movement basically

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Speaker 3: being run by Elita's billionaires. And I think you saw

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Speaker 3: that tension flair out there.

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Speaker 1: So here's my question. Who wins? Like for now, Trump wins,

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Speaker 1: but what happens when Trump is in power?

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Speaker 3: We look I think the phrase four now is important.

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Speaker 3: I thought was interesting that Trump sided with Elon Musk

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Speaker 3: and vivik Aramaswami as opposed to the people who've been

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Speaker 3: with him from the beginning, the H one B. I

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Speaker 3: don't want to get into the weeds of the H

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Speaker 3: one B visa, but this was a real flashpoint back

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Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen. He pledged to do away with him,

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Speaker 3: and it was a nasty fight between the Steve Bannons

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Speaker 3: of the world and Elon Musk and Donald Trump came

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Speaker 3: down solidly when favor of his paymaster. Now, is he

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Speaker 3: going to be able to continue to do that? Will

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Speaker 3: that be the pattern? Is he going to be able

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Speaker 3: to pacify the base? And I think that this is

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Speaker 3: maybe a preview of some of the fights we're going

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Speaker 3: to have over trade overspending imber. Elon Musk is in

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Speaker 3: charge of that whole doge, this massive cut in government spending,

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Speaker 3: and I think that he's about to discover the laws

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Speaker 3: of political gravity that every conservative Republican has learned it

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Speaker 3: one time or another, or should have learned, which is

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Speaker 3: that people always say they want to cut government programs

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Speaker 3: until you talk about cutting their government program Yeah, abstract.

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Speaker 1: That's what's so interesting is if you look at it

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Speaker 1: from just a completely a political view. Right, Elon has

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Speaker 1: I believe he completely ruined Twitter, but he has kept

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Speaker 1: it alive, right with much less staff. Right, so in

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Speaker 1: somewhat by some measurements, that was a six. We made

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Speaker 1: it much cheaper. He has SpaceX is does really a

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Speaker 1: lot of incredible stuff. So he's had a lot of

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Speaker 1: you can argue that, you can argue a lot of

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Speaker 1: processes and minuses, but he's had some real tangible successes.

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Speaker 1: And I think that he seriously thinks that now he

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Speaker 1: will conquer government. But government is really a different animal, Oh.

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Speaker 3: A completely different animal. And what you're seeing now is

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Speaker 3: hubris because a lot of those skills are not transferable

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Speaker 3: to politics. And in terms of hubris, I think there's

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Speaker 3: a fantasy. And I wrote my newsletter today to the

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Speaker 3: contrary newsletter today on what we've seen from Elon Musk

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Speaker 3: and Donald Trump in the last week. These are people

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Speaker 3: who are not sobered by responsibility. I think that there's

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Speaker 3: always that fantasy that authoritarians and extremists are going to

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Speaker 3: be tempered by the weighty responsibilities of power. Yeah, No,

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Speaker 3: Elon Musk has actually gone on this incredible narcissistic terror.

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Speaker 3: Actually that doesn't cover it. Think about the kinds of

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Speaker 3: things that he's doing that he's got the ear of

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Speaker 3: the president, and he's got this massive responsibility, and yet

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Speaker 3: he's gone off on his own. He launched that fight

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Speaker 3: about Visus on his own. He's now embraced seeing the

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Speaker 3: neo Nazi far right party in Germany. He switched out

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Speaker 3: his avatar on on social media to Pepe the Frog,

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Speaker 3: which is an alt right symbol. So here's a guy

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Speaker 3: who is acting like there are no limits, there are

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Speaker 3: no checks. It is this pure arrogance, and I think

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Speaker 3: history is full of that kind of hubris and arrogance,

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Speaker 3: leading to some rather spectacular downfalls, particularly when you have

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Speaker 3: two giant egos involved. How long do you think how

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Speaker 3: long do you think this bromance lasts?

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Speaker 1: That is the big question. And we saw over the

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Speaker 1: break that, supposedly Mike Johnson, there was a lot of

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Speaker 1: Trump is sick of Elon chatter, and we saw that reported,

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Speaker 1: We heard that, I heard that secondhand from some other people.

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Speaker 1: Like so, if Trump is channeling that, then that is

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Speaker 1: probably not a great sign for Elon.

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Speaker 3: It's going to play out because obviously he feels the

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Speaker 3: Elon and and he's still siding with him, but at

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Speaker 3: some point there's got to become a breaking point. That's

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Speaker 3: why I mentioned the whole spending cut thing. At some point,

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Speaker 3: when Elon comes in trailing his clouds of arrogance with

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Speaker 3: his plan to cut two trillion dollars out of the

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Speaker 3: federal budget, Donald Trump's going to be faced with some

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Speaker 3: hard political realities, and I think that the bromance might

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Speaker 3: end at that point. Now. Actually, I did see an

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Speaker 3: interesting point over the weekend from I think it was

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Speaker 3: Eric Erickson of all people, who pointed out that Elon

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Speaker 3: Musk is creating his own little cult of personality. Yes,

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Speaker 3: at some point that bumps up against Trumps. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: there is that, and the fact that he's been acting

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Speaker 3: as an independent figure over the last several weeks. And

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Speaker 3: I think it's just an incredible tell.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a really good and interesting point.

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Speaker 1: And I would say, look, what Elon has going for

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Speaker 1: him is that he's the richest man in the world, right,

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Speaker 1: so he can, theoretically, in a world where there are

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Speaker 1: no real campaign limits, he could fund every single candidate

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Speaker 1: to the tune of whatever amount of money he wants.

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Speaker 1: And that I think is a sort of on I

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Speaker 1: don't know how you get around that. But in the

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Speaker 1: same point, Trump does not like to be the co star,

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Speaker 1: and I think that is a real tension there.

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Speaker 3: There's another tension. Think about the people in Trump world,

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Speaker 3: the Trump warbit, how they're all basically second rate, third

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Speaker 3: grade characters who own their power and their celebrity to

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump. They don't have independent power bases. He you know,

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Speaker 3: maybe they did in the first term, but now they don't.

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Speaker 3: They're all creatures of Donald Trump. He can brush them

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Speaker 3: off like lint, with the exception of Elon Musk. Elon

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Speaker 3: Musk has now created an independent power center that Trump

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Speaker 3: has to deal with, and frankly, that power center has

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Speaker 3: become more extreme and more dangerous with every passing day.

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Speaker 3: So if anyone thinks and again and go back to

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Speaker 3: this thing that I think Trump will have to moderate

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Speaker 3: because he has to listen to Wall Street, the cross

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Speaker 3: currents of this administration are going to be very intense.

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Speaker 3: You have the Project twenty twenty five folks, You have

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Speaker 3: the heavy breathing Magabase, which is going to demand certain

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Speaker 3: levels of cruelty, and then you have Elon Musk, who

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Speaker 3: is quite frankly a wild card, the fact that he's

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Speaker 3: been engaging basically in foreign policy during that transition on

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Speaker 3: his own. It's like, what can go wrong? What can

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Speaker 3: go wrong here?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? No, for sure, that is a real question and

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Speaker 1: also super important, I do think. And he's also the

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Speaker 1: problem with Elon too is not just it's not just Elon,

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Speaker 1: it's all of his companies. So it's SpaceX and Tesla,

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Speaker 1: and the guy has all these satellites. Right, This is

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Speaker 1: a person who has so many entities that he's representing

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Speaker 1: besides his own his own political ambitions that I think

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Speaker 1: that is really just so it's hard to even know

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking of. So a lot of these billionaires have

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Speaker 1: gone have bravely gone down tomorrow ago to visit bravely

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Speaker 1: with Trump, including Jeff Bezos. And suppose like Elon went

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Speaker 1: to the Jeff Bezos dinner. Right, who is the big

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Speaker 1: competitor of Elon with SpaceX?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Exactly. So if you're Donald Trump, you know that

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Speaker 3: most circumstances, you can destroy somebody with just a bad twitch.

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Speaker 3: So and so's really dumb, so and so's really a disappointment.

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Speaker 3: So and so I can't do that with Elon Musk

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Speaker 3: because Elon Musk for he can't do it, but Elon

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Speaker 3: Musk owns Twitter. Elon Musk can fire back. So it's

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Speaker 3: going to be difficult to see how how this plays out,

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Speaker 3: although I have to admit that I do think this

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Speaker 3: is going to be one of the great storylines of

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Speaker 3: Trump two point zero. And by the way, talk about

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Speaker 3: Trump in the last couple of days, the posts he's

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Speaker 3: made after New Orleans and the terrible terror attacks there,

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Speaker 3: so that it's design okay. I think you keep in

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Speaker 3: mind that Donald Trump becomes president of the United States

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Speaker 3: of America in about seventeen sixteen seventeen days, right, and

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Speaker 3: you would think that at a certain point you would

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Speaker 3: become more presidential. In the wake of that attack in

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Speaker 3: New Orleans. First of all, he spread false information from

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Speaker 3: that fake Fox News report blak, lashed out at the

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Speaker 3: Biden administration, and then had this statement just on January first,

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Speaker 3: where he talks about our country is a disaster, a

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Speaker 3: laughing stock all over the world, and then it goes

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Speaker 3: on to say that the USA is breaking down, a

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Speaker 3: violent erosion of safety, national security, and democracy all in

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Speaker 3: caps is taking place all across our nation. Only strength

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Speaker 3: and powerful leadership will stop it. So there's no let

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Speaker 3: us come together, let's unify, let's have a bipartisan front,

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Speaker 3: let us appeal to the better angels of our nature.

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Speaker 3: It's like he's going in there filled with his personal grievances.

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Speaker 3: And so for people who say that you and I

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Speaker 3: suffer from Trump derangement syndrome, I think it's going to

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Speaker 3: be interesting sitting back and going, guys, we told you

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Speaker 3: you thought we were exaggerating.

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Speaker 1: But here's my hottest take those tweets. America is beyond repair.

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Speaker 1: What it's like, it's his template. Every Trump tweet is

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Speaker 1: American carnage. The question I think is if we look

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Speaker 1: back historically, I'm thinking about using twenty sixteen as the template.

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Speaker 1: And this is not to say that I don't think

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Speaker 1: he's super dangerous and I don't think America. I don't

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Speaker 1: think American. I think American democracy is in it. Like

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Speaker 1: the next four years are going to be like, really,

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Speaker 1: fifty to fifty we come out of this thing and

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Speaker 1: don't turn into Russia. But like one of the things,

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Speaker 1: like if you look at twenty sixteen, he did this

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Speaker 1: same he was like, we're going to go to war

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Speaker 1: with Mexico. We're going to go to war with Canada,

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Speaker 1: and then in the end he renegotiated. Knaf does not

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Speaker 1: really I do feel like he tends to like the

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Speaker 1: hyperbolic rhetoric is in order to own the lebs and

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Speaker 1: make people hysterical and then be like and to pretend

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Speaker 1: he's crazier than he is. Again, is he crazy? For sure?

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Speaker 1: And maybe that was because the people around him were

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Speaker 1: better at maybe because he doesn't have the same kind

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Speaker 1: of Kelly and Maddis around him. He will do crazier stuff,

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Speaker 1: but there was a certain amount of calculated craziness.

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Speaker 3: There is and you can really see having watched him

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Speaker 3: so closely for eight or nine years, you can see

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Speaker 3: the times when he just does things to distract, is

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Speaker 3: to seize the news cycle. I would put say, the

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Speaker 3: talk about taking Greenland as a classic, that's a distraction.

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Speaker 3: He's not actually going to do that, But everything else.

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Speaker 3: I do think that this time around we need to

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Speaker 3: take it literally and seriously, because, as you point out,

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Speaker 3: you have a completely different cast of characters around him

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Speaker 3: than you had before, and they have a plan and

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Speaker 3: the people who are really driving the agenda are not

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Speaker 3: anything close to the mainstream. This is where we're getting

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Speaker 3: back to who's really driving the agenda? Is it the

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Speaker 3: magabase or is it Elon Musk? What is the rational

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Speaker 3: moderating voice in his ear right now? Right?

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Speaker 1: No, I think that's a real question.

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Speaker 3: Maybe maybe some of these Wall Street moguls are going

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Speaker 3: to say, do whatever you like, rip as many families

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Speaker 3: apart as possible, but don't do anything that will affect

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Speaker 3: the bond market. So talked up on tariff PA, don't

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Speaker 3: actually maybe that's going to happen. Give us our little

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Speaker 3: bit of pelf and when bootle and grift, and then

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Speaker 3: you can do whatever else you like, but don't screw

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Speaker 3: up the stock market. That's my best that's my best

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Speaker 3: case scenario.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's I think that is the best

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Speaker 1: case scenario that all of us believe is the best

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Speaker 1: case scenario. Is that there's some amount of pushback from

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Speaker 1: people like the people like the Scott Basset, that there's

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Speaker 1: some amount of there's some amount of pushback from Republicans.

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Speaker 1: I think we should talk about what's happened now in

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Speaker 1: the Senate because John Thune is actually you know, he

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Speaker 1: said he's keeping the filibuster again, right, But that's that

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Speaker 1: Trump law. Rick Scott was Trump's pick. He lost.

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Speaker 3: Discuss Yeah, actually, I'm struggling against unwanted optimism about that's

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Speaker 3: because those were two important votes. Donald Trump wanted to

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Speaker 3: have a magaloyalist as a majority leader. He lost decisively.

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Speaker 3: He wants them to eliminate the filibuster, and it just

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Speaker 3: sounds like they're not going to do that. Now. Again,

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Speaker 3: we've seen Republicans cave in over and over again. But

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Speaker 3: I don't I know that they have the votes to

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Speaker 3: do away with a filibuster. And by the way, this

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Speaker 3: was something that over the last four years, I just

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Speaker 3: want to remind people I did occasionally say, be careful

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Speaker 3: what you wish for. You're going to want that filibuster

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Speaker 3: in place sometime in the future. And now it becomes

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Speaker 3: really important because it is possible that the House, when

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Speaker 3: they get done with their circus like votes, will pass

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Speaker 3: some of this Trumpian this Trumpian legislation. Now it may

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Speaker 3: only be with one or two votes, but that's enough.

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Speaker 3: So then it goes to the Senate, and you hope

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Speaker 3: that the Senate is where those ideas either go to

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Speaker 3: die or whether there's a roadblock against the most extreme

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Speaker 3: elements of that. The other thing is I don't want

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Speaker 3: to read too much into it either, but the year

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Speaker 3: end report from Chief Justice John Roberts seems to at

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Speaker 3: least hint that perhaps he understands the degree to which

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Speaker 3: he has damaged the credibility of the judiciary. And by

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Speaker 3: the way, this is the world that John Roberts created

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Speaker 3: with that immunity. One of the reasons why I think

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Speaker 3: people are so pessimistic and everybody's bowing the knee is

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Speaker 3: because we no longer have confidence that the federal courts

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Speaker 3: and the Supreme Court is going to be a is

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Speaker 3: going to be a guardrail for our constitutional republic as

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Speaker 3: it has been in the past. And that's John roberts legacy.

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Speaker 3: And maybe there's a sense there that, oh shit, look

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Speaker 3: what we have created, Look what we now face, and

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Speaker 3: the fact that the public no longer has confidence in

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Speaker 3: an independent judiciary. So maybe we'll see the courts begin

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Speaker 3: to stand up a little bit again. But even as

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Speaker 3: I say that, I'm blusher cannot how many times do

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Speaker 3: I have to hold this fucking football right, I try

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Speaker 3: to kick the fucking football that's going to be pulled

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Speaker 3: out from under us. But those are these two little

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Speaker 3: and I guess my overall sense of twenty twenty five

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Speaker 3: is that hubris does lead to downfalls, and political parties

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Speaker 3: that come into power will almost invariably overreach, over extend themselves.

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Speaker 3: And this one strikes me as the Republican under Donald Trump,

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Speaker 3: who are going to dramatically overreach themselves, dramatically misread their

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Speaker 3: quote unquote non mandate, and I think that's going to

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Speaker 3: have real consequences over the next few months.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a real question. And it's so funny

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Speaker 1: because the one thing, and I know we're almost out

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Speaker 1: of time, but I just want to like marinate on

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Speaker 1: this for a minute, because I think you appreciate this.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump is not his brand, is not the Republican brand, right, No,

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Speaker 1: it's not its own thing. And the reason that he

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Speaker 1: was able to defy political gravity was any number of reasons.

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Speaker 1: But as I think, certainly, being a forward facing person

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Speaker 1: who ran for president for the last four years did

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Speaker 1: not hurt. But I wonder we were spending so much

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Speaker 1: time marinating on what we got wrong and and what

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Speaker 1: Democrats should do differently, mostly to very little good effect.

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Speaker 1: But I'm wondering if part of it was just of

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Speaker 1: necessary Certainly there were people who could have defeated Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: but maybe the biggest mistake Democrats made it was just

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Speaker 1: not was underestimating the power that he had.

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Speaker 3: That's right, and I think that they do need to

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Speaker 3: understand that he's tapped into some actual grievances in the

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Speaker 3: least good faith way possible. But that's why I say

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Speaker 3: I think that this year is going to be clarifying

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Speaker 3: because I think one of the secret elements of Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump's appeal was when he broke with Republican orthodoxy and said,

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Speaker 3: I'm not going after Social Security and Medicare. I will

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Speaker 3: not go after those kinds of programs. And I think

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Speaker 3: that when Elon Musk comes sauntering into his office someday

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Speaker 3: with his big Doge report, he's going to find out

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Speaker 3: that promise is going to be really at risk. Will

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Speaker 3: he side with Elon Musk if it means cuts to

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Speaker 3: Social Security and Medicare or will he side with his

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Speaker 3: base and by his base, the people who actually voted

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Speaker 3: for him. And that's going to be that I think

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Speaker 3: is going to be one of the defining moments.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly, And that is the big question. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. Thank you.

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Speaker 3: It is always great talking with you.

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Speaker 2: Momy Ellie. I can write some newsletter he did.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics, Emily.

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Speaker 4: My gosh, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: It's a cheery time.

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Speaker 4: I am always so happy every day.

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Speaker 1: The people on the climate be really doing great, So

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Speaker 1: let's talk.

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Speaker 4: We are known for being perpetually just like cheery and

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Speaker 4: rosie and having really nice things to say.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, the problem here is that there's no

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Speaker 1: world in which the second Trump admin isn't really bad.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there's really like not a lot of nuance here,

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Speaker 4: and there's almost something like easier about that because covering

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Speaker 4: of Biden administration is like there's a lot of new ones.

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Speaker 4: There's some good stuff and some horrible stuff, and it's

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Speaker 4: you know, challenging to appropriately contextualize this the I guess

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Speaker 4: the one upside here, but the Trump administration is that

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Speaker 4: like there's like zero contextualization that I need to do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know what, Let's start by talking about

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Speaker 1: Elon mush Or, as Trump calls him Leon Leon started

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Speaker 1: out caring about climate or never cared about climate. Because

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Speaker 1: this guy was supposed to be a climate guy. Theoretically

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Speaker 1: at one point.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there was like a point years ago, maybe like

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Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, where I remember he went on a podcast

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Speaker 4: and talked about climate change. I don't think this was

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Speaker 4: the one where he got really high, like the Joe

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Speaker 4: Rogan one, but he like it might have been, I

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Speaker 4: don't quite remember, but he got really emotional about climate change.

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Speaker 4: He's called it like the greatest threat to humanity, and

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Speaker 4: I remember in this podcast appearance he actually got a

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Speaker 4: little choked up and a little teary about it. So

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Speaker 4: he has at least expressed like he cared about it.

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Speaker 4: But that's also I think it's important to like put

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Speaker 4: a little caveat on that and be like that's also

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Speaker 4: been central to his business model, like all being, climate

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Speaker 4: change is part of Tesla's business model. He's always really

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Speaker 4: wanted to be seen as a world savior, and I

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Speaker 4: think climate change played a really good part into framing

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Speaker 4: himself that way for a long time. And just right

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Speaker 4: now it's not really beneficial to him in that way.

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Speaker 1: So make it make sense, he just doesn't really give

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Speaker 1: a shit about climate change.

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Speaker 4: I think that when you're insane.

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Speaker 1: Right, you think there's more. It's sort of a mental

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Speaker 1: health issue.

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Speaker 4: Not even a mental health issue, but more of like

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Speaker 4: a megalomaniac issue, where you really believe that you are

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Speaker 4: the world's savior. You can really convince yourself that what

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Speaker 4: you're doing is net positive and net good. Like, for instance,

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Speaker 4: there are a lot of people who really think that,

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Speaker 4: you know, we can solve climate change by let's say,

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Speaker 4: just using carbon capture and increasing the use of gas,

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Speaker 4: which when burned emits less than coal. Right, that's misinformation.

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Speaker 4: There's no scientific scenario that says just those two things

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Speaker 4: can meaningfully slow climate change to a degree where it's

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Speaker 4: like not your revers like not you know, more than

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Speaker 4: ninety seven percent of the coral reefs on Earth dye, right,

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Speaker 4: But there are people that really believe that, and they're

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Speaker 4: not lying, and they don't not care about climate change.

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Speaker 4: They just believe misinformation. And to a degree, sure, I like,

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Speaker 4: I can't tell you whether Elon Musk really cares about

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Speaker 4: climate change or not, but I do think that he's

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Speaker 4: like high on his own supply of what can happen

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Speaker 4: to solve climate change. And the problem is that most

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Speaker 4: of these people like just aren't listening to scientists. They're

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Speaker 4: listening to themselves and to what sounds good to them.

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Speaker 1: That is the idea that he's the central play right.

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Speaker 1: The other people in the world are NPCs, non playing characters,

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Speaker 1: so the rest of us don't really exist. Right.

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Speaker 4: That's my like, you know, armchair psychoanalysis of the situation,

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Speaker 4: because I've definitely written articles unheated before about just speculating.

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Speaker 4: You know, Jeff Bezos must be a megalomaniac, right, like

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Speaker 4: these billionaires who say, like I'm devoting one hundred billion

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Speaker 4: dollars to climate solutions, you know, saying to themselves like, well,

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Speaker 4: so we can't have democratic past climate policy, but I

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Speaker 4: will decide what can solve climate change? Right, I can

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Speaker 4: the decision through my foundation what solves this global problem.

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Speaker 4: It's like in my mind, I'm like, well, you have

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Speaker 4: to be you have to be some like absolute megalomaniac

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Speaker 4: to think that you know best for all of us

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Speaker 4: for a problem that you don't even experience as a

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Speaker 4: super person.

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Speaker 1: So here we are. We're on the precipice of another

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Speaker 1: Trump admin climate hard to imagine that EPA, although he

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Speaker 1: did not put a oil and gas and it was

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Speaker 1: a coal lobbyist. The last time Scott threw it. This time,

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Speaker 1: we have a Republican friend of Trump's who failed to

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Speaker 1: win the New York governorship. But does it in your mind,

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Speaker 1: does it seem like the EPA there's no world in

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Speaker 1: which Trump cares about climate more this time than last time. Right?

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Speaker 4: I don't think so. I mean, I do think that

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Speaker 4: some people think that because Elon Musk is in there,

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Speaker 4: that perhaps things will get better.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I forgot his name. Lee's Alden, right, Lee's Elden,

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Speaker 1: friend of Trump who needed a job, gone.

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Speaker 4: Right, who has puzzlingly little experience an environmental policy, right.

432
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 1: But at least is not a coal lobbyist. If you're

433
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: going to just say.

434
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 4: One thing, sure, but you don't need a coal lobbyist

435
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 4: at the head of the EPA to have the coal

436
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 4: industry run the EPA. You just somebody who is going

437
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 4: to say yes to the coal industry. And that's what

438
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 4: Trump has to in all of these fields, which are

439
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 4: yes people. And I think what Trump probably realized from

440
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 4: the first administration, the clown buffoonery of having Scott prew

441
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 4: It Andrew Wheeler at the head of the EPA was

442
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 4: that you know, they were former coal lobbyist former fossil

443
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 4: fuel lobbyists doing buffoonery things, doing former coal lobbyist things, right,

444
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 4: So it made a good headline. I think probably Trump

445
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 4: has realized that without the buffoonery of Scott Preuit getting

446
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 4: like a sixteen buying like a sixteen thousand dollars private

447
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 4: phone booth for his office, for all those vintage you know,

448
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 4: people who remember what happened in the first Trump administration, Like,

449
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 4: without that, the reality of dismantling environmental regulations is pretty boring.

450
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,239
Speaker 4: And the only thing that makes it not boring is

451
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 4: if you have people accurately talking about the stakes of

452
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 4: that of the dismantling, but the minutia of regulatory of

453
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 4: dis mantling the regulatory state is like a sucky story

454
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 4: that nobody really cares about wanting to listen to if

455
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 4: you've got like other crazy stuff happening to distract you elsewhere.

456
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 4: And that's what like Trump is there for, right, Trump

457
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 4: is there at the nucleus and at the center to

458
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 4: be the big distracting things, saying things that you've never

459
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 4: heard before, you know, making splashy headlines like that. So

460
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 4: I don't really see much of a difference. And I

461
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 4: also think it's important. This is like a weird rabbit hole.

462
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 4: I'm wondering if you're.

463
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,479
Speaker 1: Down, No, please please, please do it.

464
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 4: This is an Elon Musk rabbit hole. So I feel

465
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 4: like you're gonna be anything that's.

466
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: Not us for twenty minutes. Talking about how fucked we

467
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 1: are is good, okay, because nobody wants to hear that.

468
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 4: No, and we're not fully fucked, but we can. We

469
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,880
Speaker 4: can get into that later too. But the rabbit hole

470
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 4: that I went down that I would love for you

471
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 4: to come with me for just a hot second, is about, well,

472
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 4: why I don't think Elon Musk is really like going

473
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 4: to be the climate savior of this administration. And it

474
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 4: just has to do with like, I think that Elon

475
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 4: Musk is sort of like a coal baron in disguise.

476
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 1: Yes, that makes a lot of sense, but say more.

477
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 4: I know that some people would hear that and be like,

478
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 4: what are you talking about? He literally is an electric car.

479
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: Guy, which is why I want you to say more.

480
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 4: Exactly so in the US, electricity demand is skyrocketing in

481
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 4: art because of electric cars and electrification in general, but

482
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 4: also because of data centers Bitcoin.

483
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 1: I knew you were going to say bitcoar.

484
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm so sorry.

485
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 1: Good. I really hate bitcoin.

486
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 4: No, I'm like super resentful that I have to know

487
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 4: anything about it. Yeah, yeah, me too, Like I'm resentful

488
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 4: that I have to talk to you about it right now.

489
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 4: But like, yeah, bitcoin artificial intelligence things that Musk himself

490
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 4: is like deeply invested in, particularly bitcoin as well as

491
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 4: electric cars. Now, electrification is supposed to be, you know,

492
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 4: from a climate perspective, it's supposed to like take you

493
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 4: away from fossil fuels. But because electrification is needed for

494
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 4: like you need electricity to power a data center, for

495
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 4: AI and for bitcoin mining, right, So that is like

496
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 4: the huge increase in demand for electricity because of all

497
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 4: three of those things is saving coal. It's prolonging the

498
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 4: life of coal plants. Like we listen to like a

499
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 4: heated will listen to like coal company investor calls right

500
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 4: like yeah, you know, like the CEOs will openly talk

501
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 4: about how the AI boom and the bitcoin boom and

502
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 4: the electric car boom is like helping coal, right, is

503
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 4: like you know, improving their forecast. It's also highly increasing

504
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 4: demand for gas. So well, the electricity needed is helping

505
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 4: the fossil fuel industry now I was like, Wow, that's

506
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 4: that's interesting. It wasn't until I heard that, until I

507
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 4: learned about that that then I understood why the CEO

508
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 4: of one of America's biggest coal companies was donating so

509
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 4: much money to Elon Musk's pack, the CEO of Alliance

510
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 4: Resource Partners. It's like a huge coal company was one

511
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 4: of the biggest donors to Elon Musk's pack to reelect Trump.

512
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 4: This coal CEO and Elon Musk were working together very closely,

513
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 4: and this was this dude's biggest one time election donation ever.

514
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 4: Alliance Resource Partner CEO. He's made donations before, but he's

515
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 4: never made a one time donation as big as he

516
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 4: did to Elon Musk. And I was like, well, why

517
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 4: would a coal CEO be working directly with Elon Musk?

518
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 4: What is their common interest? And they're both of Their

519
00:29:54,440 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 4: common interest is electricity is like increasing demand for electrification

520
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 4: and increasing demand for more data processing for more bitcoin.

521
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 4: So it's like I think that for a long time

522
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 4: Musk saw his business as electrification electrification to move away

523
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 4: from fossil fuels. But now that we need to have

524
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 4: so much demand for electrification because of AI and bitcoin.

525
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 4: He's seeing that fossil fuels are not his competition, it's

526
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 4: important for him to work with them. So I think

527
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 4: that's why you see his shift as somebody who used

528
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 4: to care about climate changing anyway from fossil fuels and

529
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 4: now he's like, I care about climate change, but we

530
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 4: can do it with fossil fuels. That's like that's not

531
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 4: aligned with the science because it's just not aligned with

532
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 4: his business interests. So he's just a coal baron now.

533
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: But it is so crazy because like he has the

534
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: most money of anyone in the world, So what's the goal.

535
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 4: Oh, just like probably he didn't get enough validation And

536
00:30:55,240 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 4: as a kid, so like more, I keep thinking about.

537
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: My priors and how I got here and how bad

538
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: my optimism problem is. But I just want to be

539
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: optimistic for a minute. It's like really an illness now,

540
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: Like if we look at Texas, Texas is now has

541
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: solar capacity. Can you talk to us about that and

542
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: maybe why that's a reason not to want to die.

543
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 4: Well, Texas has been like one of the leaders in

544
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 4: renewable energy for a long time in the US, and

545
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 4: that just keeps happening. That's not going to go away.

546
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 4: And one of the things that I hear and that

547
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 4: you know, my perriial he hears all the time from

548
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 4: just like straight up energy analysts, people that all day

549
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 4: are like, you know, be boop with here's what's happening

550
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 4: with energy. I don't really care about the stakes either way.

551
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: Right, It's an amazing way to be by the way,

552
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: because it's like, yeah, it's like this is everything, right,

553
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: Like you have kids, this.

554
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 4: Is that yeah, right. But you know, I love these

555
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 4: kinds of people who just like this is their work.

556
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 4: They do the nale us as, they silo their brain,

557
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 4: like this is this is what is happening.

558
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: Right.

559
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 4: They're very bullish that Trump cannot stop the explosion of

560
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 4: renewable energy that's happening in places like Texas, in a

561
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 4: lot of red states. That's happening because of the Inflation

562
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 4: Reduction Act. That's happening because of government investment in renewable technologies.

563
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 4: And I do believe that specifically because of the sources

564
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 4: that it comes from, like the beep boop, you know,

565
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 4: like it's not just MURTSI groups telling us this this

566
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 4: you know, energy analysts, and I think like in particularly

567
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 4: places like Texas, which are so affected by climate change,

568
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 4: by extreme weather, by hurricanes, especially flooding and heat, and

569
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 4: then all of a sudden, like they'll get weird snow

570
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 4: because climate change is weird. Like that. The diversified power grid,

571
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 4: like because they have so much renewables, the only reason

572
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 4: that their power grid doesn't fail under all this extreme

573
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 4: whether there have been multiple instances over the last few

574
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 4: years where you know, blackouts have started occurring because use

575
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 4: the gas plants can't handle the extreme heat, right, but

576
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 4: the wind and solar can. So it's also the opposite

577
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 4: of what a lot of like Republican climate denial profossil

578
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 4: fuel pundits will say. They'll be like, yeah, see this

579
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 4: is why we need fossil fuels because they fail in

580
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 4: extreme heat. And it's really like it's the opposite of

581
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 4: what's happening. I think that's the most optimistic that.

582
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: We can be, is that, like it may be an unstoppable.

583
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, truly, the renewable revolution is unstoppable. What is not

584
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 4: unstoppable is the growth of fossil fuels in handom. Like

585
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 4: renewables can either we can either like add renewables to

586
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 4: a plate and like have renewables take up the entire

587
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 4: plate or just like pile them on top of a

588
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 4: plate where you know fossil fuels are also piling up

589
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 4: at the same time, right.

590
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: And that makes a lot of sense. And that's what

591
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: you've said before about Exxon. So talk us through that, right,

592
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: this idea that oil and gas company people know they're

593
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: on their way out.

594
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, well that's why they're so freaking aggressive about their lobbying,

595
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 4: about their donations, about pouring efforts into trade groups that

596
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 4: will you know, do their pr dirty work for them,

597
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 4: because like Exon doesn't want to come out and be

598
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 4: like Exon, big oil company, I want to repeal every

599
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 4: single like environmental regulation in the US. That's not going

600
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 4: to help Exon because Exon, I think I've talked about

601
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 4: this with you before. These oil companies, and they've talked

602
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 4: about this in their internal documents. They rely on social

603
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 4: license to operate, to continue operating, which is like fancy

604
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 4: lingo for the public needs to support their right to exist. Essentially,

605
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 4: if they lose social license, then they are in deep shit,

606
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 4: as one might say, right, Yeah, they like a for

607
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 4: memberships and trade group to like do that advocacy for them.

608
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 1: But because they see the writing on the wall, which

609
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: means they know that it's like cigarettes, right or flavored

610
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 1: vapes everyone's favorite.

611
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, they know the.

612
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: Window is closing, so they just want to stay out

613
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: there as long as possible.

614
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 4: Right. And at the same time, however, like they'll also

615
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 4: buy up a lot of renewables so that they are

616
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 4: at least diversified enough so that they have control over

617
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 4: the competition, which makes sense.

618
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: And then the thinking is, will they make the renewables

619
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 1: less renewable because they don't give a fuck or is

620
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 1: that really just they just do it because.

621
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,840
Speaker 4: I think it's good for them to be I mean, look,

622
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 4: the vast majority of growth is going to go like

623
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 4: over the next hour many years, This is like not

624
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 4: a controversial thing to say, is going to go towards

625
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 4: decarbonization and renewable energy, and just like general energy transition sectors,

626
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 4: it's good for them to be invested in in those

627
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 4: things into any decarbonization, renewable energy, and energy transition sectors.

628
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 4: I don't think that they would tank it just for

629
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 4: no reason, but it has to be in partnership with

630
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 4: their core business, which is fossil fuel growth, which is carbonization.

631
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 4: Like they're making the vast majority of their profits from

632
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 4: selling fossil fuels and plastic, right, So they're always going

633
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 4: to do that. And I don't think that the growth

634
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 4: of renewables is necessarily a threat to Axon unless it's

635
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 4: displacing Exxon. So if they have control of the decarbonization technologies,

636
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 4: then they also have control of whether or not it

637
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 4: displaces them.

638
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

639
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 4: Welcome.

640
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

641
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best

642
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: minds and power ticks. Makes Sense