1 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Very pleased to be joined by the historian and author 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 1: and apple Bomb, one of the most insightful commentators on 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: domestic and global affairs, and particularly this revanist movement we 4 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: see in the United States across Europe that is hostile 5 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: to the liberal democratic values and the systems that emerged 6 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: in the aftermath of the Second World War, and though imperfect, 7 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: have largely kept global peace for eighty years and have 8 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: certainly advanced human progress at a level that I think 9 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: sometimes both Beggar's imagination and is not widely known. But 10 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: welcome an apple. 11 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 2: Bomb, Thanks, thanks, glad to be here. 12 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: There is a person that you remind me of historically 13 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,839 Speaker 1: who I've never met, but who I've read a great 14 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: deal of, and that's Dorothy Thompson. And she had the 15 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: distinction of being the first journalist an American kicked out 16 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: of Hitler's Germany, out of the Reich. I think, wrote 17 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: the greatest column explaining fascism and the affinity of people 18 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: towards it in a New Yorker column You know speculated 19 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: guess who the Nazi is as a dinner and parlor game. 20 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: She talked about the collapse of democracies as an eyewitness 21 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: before Senate testimony in nineteen thirty seven. She was an 22 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: FDR New dealer, but was absolutely opposed to his court 23 00:01:54,480 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: packing scheme and deeply worried about it. When she talked 24 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: about the collapse of democracy, her main point was that 25 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: people just are not willing to fight for a concept 26 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: and an idea that they think has failed them with 27 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:26,839 Speaker 1: regard to their life, their economic prosperity, but they are 28 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: willing to fight for that economic prosperity at the expense 29 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: of their democracy. And so as we stand at this 30 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: moment in the United States where Biden, if the election 31 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: were tomorrow, by all accounts and all the polls, would 32 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: lose the election to Trump. I don't think we're faded 33 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: to that. We have at least dephonic on national television 34 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: talking about the January sixth perpetrators three years later, or hostages, 35 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: so on and so forth. How do you see all 36 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: of them in its totality in the highest lens. 37 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 2: So let me unpick a little bit what you just said. 38 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 2: You know, one is the question of are people willing 39 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 2: to fight for an idea as opposed to fighting for 40 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: their own economic interests? And you know, I know that 41 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 2: it's it's quite fashionable to say that, you know, democracy 42 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 2: is too complicated a concept people. You know, people don't 43 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 2: understand these questions a rule of law and justice and 44 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 2: you know, it all takes place on a higher level, 45 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 2: and everybody just wants to know where their next meal 46 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 2: is coming from. I actually disagree with that, and I 47 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 2: think there is quite a lot of proof of that 48 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 2: over time, both in our country but also in other countries. 49 00:03:54,840 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 2: And we can come back to that as well. I 50 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: do think that we live in a moment when the 51 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: ideas have become muddied and you know, and have ben 52 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,839 Speaker 2: and we we we lack people who clearly explain them 53 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: or people who are able to organize movements around them, 54 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: and I think that's you know, that's a that's a 55 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,559 Speaker 2: part of the problem that we're seeing now. I would 56 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: say that the third thing I would say is that 57 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: we you know, way the way you started your statement, 58 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 2: you know, you talked about this eighty years of relative 59 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 2: peace and prosperity, rules of international order that at least 60 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 2: kept the peace in some parts of the world. You know, 61 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 2: it meant that we didn't have another big war in Europe. 62 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: It meant that conflicts were contained, even if they weren't 63 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: always prevented. You know, we took a lot of that 64 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: for granted, we were all you and me and you know, 65 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 2: people our age and years older and ten years younger. 66 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 2: We're very, very lucky to live at a particular moment 67 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 2: in history when it was just assumed that peace was 68 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 2: the norm and democracy was the ultimate aspiration. And we're 69 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 2: now returning to something that's more normal historically speaking, or 70 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 2: more you know, closer to what Dorothy Thompson was describing 71 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 2: in the you know, in the nineteen thirties nineteen forties, 72 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 2: were returning to a time when democracy is a thing 73 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 2: that has to be fought for against different kinds of 74 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 2: forces that want to undo it. And preparing again to 75 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: do that, and beginning to think about how to do that, 76 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 2: and how to mobilize people again in a way that 77 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 2: we haven't had to mobilize them in a long time. 78 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: Is the challenge of the current moment. You know, I 79 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 2: like to a good metaphor for a way to think 80 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: about how we're where we where we are right now 81 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 2: is is actually the metaphor of running water. You know, 82 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 2: we all live in a society now where we just 83 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 2: assume that water comes out of the tap. 84 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: Right. 85 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 2: We don't think about where the water comes from. We 86 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 2: don't worry about the pipes, we don't know really how 87 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 2: the technology works. We don't care about it. We just 88 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: turn the tap on and we get water. We are 89 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 2: now returning to an era before that, when we had 90 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: to think about water. You might have to go to 91 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 2: the well to get the water, or think about buckets 92 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 2: or prepared during the day to assume you have enough on. 93 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 2: In other words, something that was automatic to us and 94 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 2: didn't require that much thought, which was the existence of 95 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 2: democracy and the rule of law. We're now going to 96 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 2: have to begin to fight for, to think about, to 97 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 2: go back to basics, to understand it. Better to talk 98 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 2: about it more if we want it to continue, if 99 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 2: we want to if we want to have that sense 100 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 2: of automaticity. You know that this is automatically where we live, 101 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 2: then you know, in the society that we live in, 102 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 2: we may have to do more about it. You know, 103 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 2: all of us got used to this idea that democracy 104 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 2: was something that was done by specialists, you know, political 105 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: consultants or politicians or people who live in Washington and 106 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 2: the rest of us. All we had to do was 107 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: show up every four years and vote, or maybe not 108 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: vote because it wasn't that important, and then the system 109 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 2: would keep going. Actually, it turns out that it might 110 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 2: be a system that we have to be involved in. 111 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 2: We have to think about, we have to care about it, 112 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 2: you know, it has to be part of our lives. 113 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: We have to worry about it in ways that we 114 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: didn't before. And so I think that's the that's the 115 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: that's the change that we're living through. 116 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: You know. 117 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 2: It's it's not so much that people won't fight for it, 118 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 2: or don't care about it, or prefer their own economic interests. 119 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 2: It's that we have to have to think harder about 120 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 2: how to mobilize around it, how to push it, and 121 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: how to make sure that it remains real. You know, 122 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 2: it's a it's not a and it's not like a 123 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 2: battle that will be won and then it's over and 124 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 2: we can all go back to making money or painting 125 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 2: paintings or doing whatever we were doing before. It's a 126 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 2: struggle and it's going to go on, probably for the 127 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: rest of our lives. 128 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: You know. 129 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 2: If we want to maintain a political system where you know, 130 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 2: freedom and the rule of law and you know, a 131 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: certain tolerance for you know, for political and other kinds 132 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: of minorities is the norm. Then we will have to 133 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 2: many more of us will have to be engaged than 134 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 2: we ever were. 135 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 1: It's shocking to watch Trump or at least Stephonic or 136 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: there's fifty other examples I could give you where somebody 137 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: looks into a television camera and says the red chairs 138 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: blue right, that the convicted Falons are now hostages. And 139 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: you're sitting there saying, what are people conceivably going to 140 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: believe this? Is it possible that they could leave this? 141 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 1: And you kind of step back in the historical perspective 142 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: and you say, you know, we live in a country 143 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: where the casualty estimates of the Civil War were revised 144 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: upwards about ten years ago after a really deep analysis, 145 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: and so had you had a nation of thirty four 146 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: million people where there were somewhere between seven hundred and 147 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: fifty thousand to eight hundred fifty thousand casualties in eighteen 148 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: eighty five the political era of Abraham Lincoln, Ulysses Grant 149 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: dies and he's the most famous American in the world, 150 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: and he's revered. You get to the beginning of the 151 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: twentieth century, Grant is routinely mentioned in the same breath 152 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: as Washington and Jefferson and Lincoln, and by nineteen thirty 153 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 1: he's gone. And by nineteen thirty, in fact, a military 154 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: genius was a butcher, Harry genius was a drunk, a 155 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: near great president was corrupt, and all of the noble 156 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: virtues are assigned to the loser, a trader Robert E. 157 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: Lee the myth of the lost cause. If you could 158 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: come out of the American Civil War within a few 159 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,199 Speaker 1: decades or maybe a few more. On top of that, 160 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: with the entire narrative of what happened topsy turvyed I 161 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: think Taitasi Coach speaks about this. The North won the war, 162 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: the South won the myth, then certainly it's possible. And 163 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: this is the lesson, I suppose of all dictatorships, is 164 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: to invent and manufacture their own reality and their own 165 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: truth under the velocity of their under the velocity of 166 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: their lives. And so when you look at the propaganda 167 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: element of this, the streme of invective and vitriol that's 168 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: directed at Biden, at the pro democracy forces, the and 169 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: from my perspective, the incapacity for a number of different reasons, 170 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: some structural, not to be able to respond to it. 171 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: How do you think about that as central to being 172 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: able to communicate about the exigent threat, the existential threat ahead. 173 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: When I think of the explanation, despite all the technology, 174 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: all the advances in filmography, I'm not sure that there's 175 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: a better explanation of who the fascists are and who 176 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: we are than Frank Capra's nineteen forty two film, which 177 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: was Why we Fight and how the country got right 178 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: into World War Tip. How do you think about that? 179 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 2: So you're right that creating myths and you know, coding 180 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 2: the past with lies and reconstructing what happened, you know, 181 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 2: is a is a trade of every dictatorshipt you know, 182 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: probably going back to Rome, but certainly the ones of 183 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 2: the twentieth century. You know, we're famous for doing that. 184 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 2: You know. The the construction of a of a historical 185 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 2: mythology and a kind of series of events that justify 186 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: the present is, you know, is as old as autocracy. 187 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: You know, the the you know, there was a communist 188 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 2: mythology about the heroism of Stalin. You know that that 189 00:12:55,240 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 2: was entirely false, based on a completely fake account of 190 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 2: the of the Bolshevik Revolution and the and the and 191 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 2: the nineteen twenty wars. You know, Hitler had had a 192 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 2: fake story about his own life and his own trajectory. 193 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: You know. 194 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 2: And you know, once again, I would I would stress 195 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 2: the idea that I think for a long time Americans 196 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 2: half convinced themselves. Certainly, I mean that I was convinced 197 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 2: when I was growing up that this this quality didn't 198 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: really apply to us. You know, that we had a 199 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 2: we had a better and clearer understanding of history and 200 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 2: uh and uh, you know, and there and the and 201 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 2: the narrative of progress was was was somehow solid, you 202 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 2: know that okay, where there was the revolution and then 203 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 2: this the Civil War kind of corrected the revolution, and 204 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: then we had the civil rights movement that corrected that, 205 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 2: and you know, now we were on to something, to 206 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 2: something better. And I think what we forgot was that 207 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 2: bad ideas never die, you know, they they don't go away, 208 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: you know, just because they've been defeated. You know, just 209 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 2: because Nazism was defeated doesn't mean that it doesn't come 210 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 2: back in different forms. Just because you know, white supremacy 211 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 2: was defeated in the in the Civil War, doesn't mean 212 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 2: it doesn't re arise, and being vigilant about the return 213 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 2: of bad ideas and constantly being aware that they can 214 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: and will come back, and not being complacent. I think 215 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: Americans became very complacent in the twentieth century because of 216 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 2: you know, we enjoyed so much success. We forgot that, 217 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: we forgot what could lead to failure. You know, is 218 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 2: a you know again, something that needs to be done now, 219 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 2: I mean almost constant reminder of of you know, what 220 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: happened in our history and how we have to continue 221 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 2: to overcome it is important. But your other point is 222 00:14:53,320 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 2: about truth and untruth, which is you know again, Autocracies 223 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 2: are always based upon, you know, an attempt to discover 224 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 2: or ascempt sorry, an attempt to distort or rearrange reality. 225 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 2: And another element that we have to contend with now 226 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 2: is that there are many more ways to do that 227 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 2: than there used to be. You know, it's not just 228 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 2: the dictator telling a story. You know, the dictator can 229 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 2: now have you know, hundreds of trolls, you know, paid 230 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 2: and unpaid, who can echo and repeat that story for him. 231 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 2: The dictator can you know, can use you know, other 232 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: forms of technology. I mean, we haven't we haven't seen 233 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: the full impact of AI yet, but I'm sure that 234 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 2: we will in the coming election campaign. You know, the 235 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 2: you know, there there are lessons that have been learned 236 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 2: over the over the last several decades. You know, if 237 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: you repeat lies enough, if you provide a constant stream 238 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 2: of them, you know, if you confuse people, if you 239 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 2: produce this. You know, the famous expression is firehood of falsehoods. 240 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 2: This is the kind of Russian invention. You know, if 241 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 2: you continually put out lies one after the next, you know, 242 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: you begin to loosen the idea of truth itself, and 243 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 2: then people feel, you know, they're not rooted in reality anymore. 244 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 2: They doubt this, you know, all sources of information, whether 245 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 2: it's the media, or whether it's the government, or whether 246 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 2: it's universities, and then they begin to doubt everything. And 247 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 2: people who doubt everything, and people who don't know what 248 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 2: to believe and aren't oriented, are much easier to manipulate. 249 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: So so you know, you're seeing right now several things 250 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 2: going on at the same time. One is this, you know, 251 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 2: return of bad ideas. The second is ever more sophisticated 252 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 2: ways of you know, convincing people that nothing is true 253 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 2: at all, and that they don't really know. They can't, 254 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 2: they have no way of knowing what reality is, so 255 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 2: they might as well go along with, you know, with 256 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 2: with whatever is easier. 257 00:16:59,000 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: You know. 258 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 2: It's it's interesting. I mean, at least dephonic is a 259 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:08,239 Speaker 2: particularly confusing in some ways version of this. I mean, 260 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 2: it's somebody who's clearly educated, right, who's clearly intelligent, who 261 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 2: must know she's lying, you know, who, who who must 262 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 2: understand that, you know that January sixth perpetrators were insurrectionists 263 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 2: and not and not heroes, and they're certainly not hostages, 264 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 2: you know, And yet has you know, is so profoundly 265 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 2: cynical that she's using again all these tools, you know, 266 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: the the you know, the false language, you know, the 267 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 2: being reinforced by you know, by waves of internet emotion. 268 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 2: And she's doing it in order to, you know, in 269 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 2: order to obtain power. I mean, whether it's power for 270 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 2: herself or power for her party, you know, remains to 271 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 2: be she I mean, maybe she wants to be vice president, 272 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 2: maybe she wants to be have another leadership role. And 273 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 2: you know, we've we we really forgot that that's you know, 274 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 2: that's normal behavior throughout history that people, you know, people 275 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 2: are opportunistic and cynical, and they lie to get power. 276 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 1: Well, it's an important part of the coalition, right. You 277 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: have the fanatics, you have the ideologues, but none of 278 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: it happens, none of it comes to life without the cynics. 279 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: Let me, let me ask you turn this towards Ukraine 280 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: and to the war, and towards the global security situation. 281 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: Nineteen twenty three Hitler's punch. We are one hundred and 282 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: one years on, and we are one hundred years on 283 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: now from the birth dates of men like Jimmy Carter 284 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 1: and George Herbert Walker Bush. Jimmy Carter just missed the war. 285 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: He graduated in Napolis in nineteen forty six. George Bush 286 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: was the youngest fighter pilot, naval aviator in the Pacific. 287 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 1: But when we think back towards you know what's called 288 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: the Greatest generation. A lot of the young men who 289 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: landed on the beaches and who were buried under the 290 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: crosses were born in a twenty four after the nineteen 291 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: one hundred years ago. It was their birthdates. And there's 292 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: something true about history. The sixteenth century was deadlier than 293 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: the fifteenth and the seventeenth. Then the sixteenth, the eighteenth 294 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: more than the seventeenth. The nineteenth was a very deadly century. 295 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: It was a preface to industrial war, and things went 296 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: completely off the hook, as you know in the twentieth century, 297 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 1: where by the time you reach the midpoint with mankind's 298 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:55,959 Speaker 1: possession of weapons that can extinct civilization, one hundred million 299 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: dead in the Second Global War of the first half 300 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: of the cent history has been broken or postponed. But 301 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot of time left in the twenty first 302 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 1: century to exceed the Butcher's bill of the twentieth century. 303 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: And so my first question, and I'm going to ask 304 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: a bunch of them put together, who is winning the 305 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: war in Ukraine and Russia? And two, it seems to 306 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: me that Donald Trump's security vision is very clear. He 307 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:43,479 Speaker 1: views the world in a nineteenth century sense. He's a 308 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 1: mercanti list in some regard a moral but he doesn't 309 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: understand why the United States would extend a security guarantee 310 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: to Taiwan. He looks at that as China's back yard 311 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: and doesn't care. He looks at Ukraine as Russia's backyard. 312 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 1: And whoever the strongest power in Europe may be, let 313 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 1: him fight it out. If that's what they want to do. 314 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 1: And I think that Trump looks at the Western hemisphere 315 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: is my territory. I don't think you ever have to 316 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: look forward to Trump trying to send an American army, 317 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: let's say, to the Middle East. I think that's anatomatic 318 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: to him. But I think there's a real lack of 319 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 1: imagination about an American army rolling south into Mexico or 320 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: into Venezuela, or into other places in the hemisphere. Trump 321 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: ideologically doesn't necessarily want a foreign war on the other 322 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: side of the world, but all dictators want a war, 323 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: and Donald Trump's personality would suggest that he too would 324 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: not be indisposed towards sending that. So when you look 325 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: at the world and you look at it an American 326 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: president that would, I think, within a week functionally abrogate 327 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: Article five of NATO. That pretty quickly would realign the 328 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: world in the sense that the United States is not 329 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: is not coming to help you, the United States is 330 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: going home. Talk about that in the context agreement disagreement, 331 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: but also in the context of this of this war 332 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: in Ukraine. United States weapons supplies to Ukraine are tenuous 333 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: at best. There is an unbelievable hostility towards the Ukrainian 334 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: nation from this MAGA right, that is fully in league 335 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: with the ambitions of Vladimir Putin or useful idiots forum. However, however, 336 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: you see the world to talk to a warning community, 337 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: if you would, about this moment in the next moment, 338 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: as this security situation continues to unravel in a way 339 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: that I find very, very worrisome. 340 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 2: So what you're talking about is Trump's dislike of the 341 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 2: idea of collective defense. So Trump is not interested in 342 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 2: America having allies and in working with other countries to 343 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 2: preserve regions of stability. 344 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: I don't want to cut you, I don't want to 345 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: cut you off there, but I want to take for 346 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: an academic purpose, right, I want to take the Trump 347 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 1: position on this. Is the German army is it prepared 348 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: to fight? It is not. The Canadians have the capacity 349 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: maybe to send a battalion to Haiti, maybe not. When 350 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: you look across the Western European nations, what countries have 351 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: a military that's ready to fight today. 352 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 2: Well, I'm speaking to you here from Poland that's one 353 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 2: of them. And the Poles would fight and are and 354 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 2: think about it, frequently. I believe the British and French 355 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 2: can fight, and they periodically do. I believe that if 356 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 2: there were a war that you know, that that that 357 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 2: that you know, that challenged Europe, I believe you would 358 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 2: find Dutch soldiers, you would find Scandinavian soldiers, You would 359 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 2: you might even find Italian and Spanish soldiers that will fight, 360 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 2: and you would even find some Germans who would fight. 361 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 2: You know, much would depend on how all the contest 362 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 2: was organized and how people understood it. But you know, 363 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 2: and you know you would. You might also have without 364 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 2: the United States as an organizing power. And that's, by 365 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 2: the way, the United States is most important function in Ukraine. 366 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 2: It's not just that the US gives money. Actually, if 367 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 2: you if you look at the numbers and you count 368 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 2: EU donations, which of course come from the Member States, 369 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 2: the US and the European Union give about the same 370 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 2: amount of money to Ukraine. But the US has a 371 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 2: fundamentally important organizing leadership function and of course has a 372 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 2: military that it's not just the scale of the military, 373 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 2: it's also the commanded control systems, the experience of leadership 374 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 2: that the you know, the rest of Europe as a 375 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 2: whole doesn't have. So, you know, I think you would 376 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 2: find you would find people who would fight, you just 377 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 2: wouldn't find the leadership and the and the you know, 378 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 2: the the you know, the the galvanizing force that the 379 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 2: US can provide. You know, I don't think it's the 380 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 2: case that you know, Europeans are I don't know, incapable 381 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,239 Speaker 2: of warfare anymore. I think that's a you know, it 382 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 2: hasn't happened here in a long time, but you now 383 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 2: have a sense of, at least among some Europeans, you 384 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 2: have a sense of existential conflict that you didn't have before. 385 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 2: You certainly had that at the beginning of this war. 386 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 2: And you know, it's not universal and it's not everywhere, 387 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 2: but it's that it's quite powerful. So so I don't 388 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 2: I don't think we're you know, what the US does 389 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 2: is the you know, just returning to the beginning of 390 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 2: our conversation, is the US in a way brings the 391 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 2: organizing ideas and principle. You know, people people would fight 392 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 2: for freedom, and they would do so under American leadership 393 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 2: because as they do believe in that idea and they 394 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 2: believe in in you know, and certainly Europeans believe in 395 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 2: the idea that you know, larger countries shouldn't be able 396 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 2: to occupy and and and destroy smaller ones. People understand 397 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 2: that the Russian occupation of Eastern Ukraine is a tutalitarian occupation. 398 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 2: You know, when the Russians come into a region, they 399 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 2: arrest all the local people, they create concentration camps, they 400 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 2: kidnap and deport children, They commit human rights, human rights 401 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 2: abuses on a scale that nobody has seen in Europe. 402 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 2: And you know, since the generation of you know, Jimmy 403 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 2: Carter and George Bush Senior, maybe before that, so people 404 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 2: understand that. But but it's the American leadership and America 405 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 2: and military leadership and thought leadership kind of ideas leadership 406 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 2: that that the US can bring and those things are 407 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 2: of course Trump can't bring those because because Trump doesn't 408 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 2: understand those ideas and he doesn't really believe in themselves. 409 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 2: He doesn't himself care about human rights abuse or kidnap children. 410 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 2: You know, he's he he he admires cruelty, and he 411 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 2: admires absolute power. And the United States has always stood 412 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 2: for the opposite. 413 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: Of that absolutely, and and that is that is the 414 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 1: key point. He admires Vladimir Putin and definitely much wishes 415 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: to emulate his role. 416 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I think, I think it's important 417 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 2: that people also understand it's not just Putin. He admires 418 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 2: she Absolutely, he admires you know, the North Koreans. And 419 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 2: he's he said so, He's told us so repeatedly. He 420 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 2: you know, he says it over and over again. And 421 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 2: the you know the idea that you sometimes hear on 422 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 2: the maga right that well, you know, we're fighting the 423 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 2: wrong war. We should be fighting China, that's our real rival, 424 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 2: not Russia. That's not how Trump thinks, you know. Trump, Trump, 425 00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 2: you know, admires dictatorships and he admires you know, autocracy, 426 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 2: and he would admire it in different forms. He would, 427 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 2: he would he would feel the same way about Taiwan 428 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 2: that he feels about Ukraine. 429 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: I say this as somebody who grew up in New 430 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: Jersey and share a culture with Trump. I'm gonna explain 431 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: this perfectly. He has a kosinostra philosophy. Uh, it's territorial. 432 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: He's got his family, they got theirs. And there may 433 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: be issues between us where are boundaries of butt, But 434 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: generally speaking, so long as you respect the boundary, there'll 435 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: be peace. And that is and that is the Trump philosophy. 436 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: It is not it is not built around the maintenance 437 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: of an international system sustained by American heart and soft 438 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: power and the rule of law and international treaty that 439 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: you know is the culmination of really hundreds of years 440 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: of advancement in human progress. An extraordinary thing to behold 441 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three. But I wanted, I wanted to 442 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask. In Ukraine, the Russian army is 443 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: sustained in some media accounts five hundred thousand casualties, Its 444 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: officer corps has been decimated. What is the Russian capacity 445 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: to keep fighting? What is the Ukrainian capacity to keep fighting? 446 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: And what does a cease fire line look like in 447 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: Ukraine that stops the war or holds it in place 448 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: for some period some period of time? Or do you 449 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: subscribe to the notion that Zelenski holds that he will 450 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: liberate every inch of Ukrainian territory held by Russians, which 451 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: is an American in a position I deeply appreciate, but 452 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: I wonder if it is achievable, and whether the entire 453 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: weight of America's national security and foreign policy position should 454 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: be behind something that is not achievable. 455 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 2: So let me I mean this will sound paradoxical, but 456 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 2: the war will be over when the Russians feel they 457 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 2: can't win. So you know, the war will end when 458 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 2: the Russians go home, when they feel they've lost, when 459 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 2: they give up the idea of conquering all of Ukraine. 460 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 2: And when that happened, we don't. I can't tell you 461 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 2: exactly when and how that will happen, but we will 462 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 2: know it like there will there will be a you know, 463 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: there will be whether it will be a putin, will change, 464 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 2: or there will be a leadership change, or there will 465 00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 2: be some change political change in Russia, not necessarily regime change, 466 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 2: just a change of movement that you know, the moment 467 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 2: when they decide they don't want to do it anymore 468 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 2: is when the war is over. And I think at 469 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 2: that moment then we can negotiate where the borders will be. 470 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: Are we getting there? 471 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 2: So the only way we can get there is for 472 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 2: you know, is for Russia to run out of steam, 473 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 2: out of energy, out of people, out of ammunition. We 474 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 2: could get there, and I you know, I've just been 475 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 2: to Ukraine. Actually I went right before New Year's right, 476 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 2: you know, in December. And you know, if we can 477 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 2: can can continue to help Ukraine, if we can help 478 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 2: Ukraine build up its defense industry, if we can help 479 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 2: Ukraine create a you know, a professional, long term, long 480 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 2: standing army, which is what they're trying to do. 481 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: Now. 482 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 2: If we convince the Russians that we aren't going to leave, 483 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 2: that we will be there and not just convince them, 484 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 2: you know, tactically or in a narrative way, but convince 485 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 2: them because it's true, you know, then it is a 486 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 2: matter of time before the Russians begin to ask what 487 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 2: are we doing this for? You know, there is you know, 488 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 2: it's not Russia, it's you know, we are not winning. 489 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 2: We are not winning hearts and minds. We are not 490 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 2: conquering territory that it will then be easy to hold, 491 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 2: and so the so the so the so. The victory 492 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 2: depends a lot on whether you know, we can win. 493 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: But it's both a military battle and a psychological battle. 494 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 2: You know, we convince the Russians that we aren't leaving, 495 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 2: we are staying. We do stay, we help Ukraine create 496 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 2: a permanent you know, in a kind of a permanent 497 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 2: war economy if you will. I mean, the Ukrainians sometimes 498 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 2: talk about Israel in the sense of, you know, being 499 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 2: or or South Korea, you know, being a state that 500 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,959 Speaker 2: is permanently ready to defend itself. If we help Ukraine 501 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 2: become that, then I think, you know, that will help 502 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 2: end the war. I mean, the Ukrainians had hoped for 503 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 2: some kind of victory, perhaps involving Crimea. That would you know, 504 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 2: that would be the blow that would convince the Russians 505 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 2: to leave. Maybe they'll achieve that, and maybe they won't. 506 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 2: There was more hope for that a few months ago 507 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,919 Speaker 2: than there is now. But the but you know, it's 508 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 2: still about holding on and holding out and convincing the 509 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 2: Russians to go home. And you know, literally the war 510 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 2: is over when the Russians leave. 511 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: And and of course the central reason looking at the 512 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: looking at the world through Russian eyes and looking at 513 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 1: the world through Vladimir Putin's eyes, why on earth would 514 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: he ever give up and give in with five hundred 515 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: thousand casualties when Donald Trump could be elected president in November. 516 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: So the so, yeah, it was so the demand side 517 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: for the for the war continuing is the idiocy of 518 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: the useful idiots and the American Congress and around Donald 519 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 1: Trump and Trump himself, whose position really makes it impossible 520 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 1: for Putin to walk away, makes it impossible for the 521 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: country to communicate what it is you are suggesting needs 522 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: to be to be communicated. And so we'll probably have 523 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,320 Speaker 1: at least one more fighting season, and if Trump goes 524 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:36,240 Speaker 1: down in the election, probably the lines as the winner 525 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: starts next year twenty four twenty five will be the 526 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: lines around which you know, permanent demarcations and inspires on 527 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: the game. 528 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's not the final border, isn't what's important, 529 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 2: you know, What's important is that it becomes clear that 530 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 2: the Russians are leaving and want to end the war. 531 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 2: Is important, have a negotiation right now? Is The reason 532 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 2: you can't have a negotiation now is not because you know, 533 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 2: Zelenski is a maximalist and he's you know, unrealistic and 534 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,879 Speaker 2: so on. The reason you can't have a negotiation right 535 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 2: now is that Putin doesn't want to end the war, you. 536 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: Know, because he believes his position will improve. 537 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 2: He believes his position will improve because if Trump is 538 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,800 Speaker 2: the president, then Trump will hand over you know, half 539 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 2: or all or some large parts of Ukraine. And will 540 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 2: no longer defend you, Craine. I mean so literally, Trump 541 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,439 Speaker 2: is playing a huge role in this war just by 542 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 2: being the person who putin. Putin is counting on to 543 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,439 Speaker 2: give him the advantage and let him win. 544 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: Let me, let me, let me ask this question as 545 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: a historian, is there any American from nineteen hundred and 546 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: forward that he ever played a role as pronounced as 547 00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: the one Trump is playing the way you just articulated it. 548 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,919 Speaker 1: So you had Lindbergh in the thirties, he was decorated 549 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:14,320 Speaker 1: by Ribbentrop. He wasn't the head of state. Americans forget 550 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: though that. You know, the draft was preserved in nineteen 551 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: forty by one vote, which would have made it impossible 552 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: had we lost the draft in nineteen forty to have 553 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: invaded France before probably nineteen forty six, which might have 554 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 1: made the task impossible. But is there any American who 555 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: has played a comparable role in support of a foreign 556 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 1: dictator's aggression? And the way that Trump is right now, 557 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: I mean he is he is the hope of the 558 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: Russian of the Russian aggression. 559 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you could put the best comparison to 560 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 2: me of the Magarite is actually to the far left 561 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 2: in the uh, you know, in the in the sort 562 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 2: of pre war and post warrior I mean, you know, 563 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 2: there were American communists who supported Soviet communism, you know, 564 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 2: in all kinds of ways. The difference, of course, is 565 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 2: that none of them ever had any power or any 566 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 2: significant power, and so you know, they were they were 567 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,319 Speaker 2: they were in favor of a of a of a 568 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 2: of an autocratic dictatorship that wanted to defeat the United States, 569 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 2: but they weren't in any position to bring that about. 570 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 2: You know, what's different and unusual and new about Trump 571 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,879 Speaker 2: is that he's somebody who favors the you know, the 572 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 2: aims and beliefs of a foreign dictatorship that wants to 573 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 2: defeat you know, American allies, and the end he's in 574 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 2: a position to influence that and effect it. So in 575 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 2: that sense, he's worse than they are. 576 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: Do you think that Ukraine will become a nuclear power? 577 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 2: You know, I don't know. Uh, you know, there's it's 578 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 2: certainly an interesting historical puzzle. You know, had Ukraine been 579 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 2: allowed to keep its nuclear weapons after the fall of 580 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,919 Speaker 2: the Soviet Union, would we be having this war now? 581 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,720 Speaker 2: My guess is that we would not, and of course 582 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,240 Speaker 2: everyone around the world is also. This is another reason 583 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 2: why everybody's watching the outcome of this conflict. 584 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: You know, if. 585 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 2: Ukraine is to lose because it gave up its nuclear weapons, 586 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 2: then what is the incentive for anybody to give up 587 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 2: nuclear weapons ever again, or to not acquire them? You know, 588 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 2: why wouldn't South Korea want nuclear weapons? Why wouldn't Japan 589 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,759 Speaker 2: want nuclear weapons? You know, if you, if you, if you, 590 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 2: why wouldn't Taiwan want nuclear weapons? I mean, I'm not 591 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 2: saying these are countries that all have the have the 592 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 2: ability to obtain them, but but the you know, this 593 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 2: is another issue that's at stake in this war. You know, 594 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 2: if we you know, we gave Ukraine in the nineteen nineties, 595 00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,760 Speaker 2: We and the British and the Russians actually gave Ukraine 596 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 2: this guarantee of independence and and and and of its 597 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 2: end of its borders in exchange for Ukraine giving up 598 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 2: its nuclear weapons. I don't know how many Americans know that, 599 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:15,720 Speaker 2: but we did. And you know, were Ukraine to lose 600 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 2: its sovereignty and to lose its independence after that, then 601 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,800 Speaker 2: the incentive for everybody else to get nuclear weapons is 602 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,320 Speaker 2: suddenly much higher. I mean may that may have happened already. 603 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 1: I want to close out with you. I know you 604 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,720 Speaker 1: are in Poland and it is late in the evening 605 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 1: and you've had a long day there. But I do 606 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 1: want to talk about the deteriorating situation in the in 607 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 1: the Middle East. What does it look like to you? 608 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:48,439 Speaker 1: Does this look like a situation that is about two 609 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:59,959 Speaker 1: escalate or a situation which is contained inside of God 610 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:07,399 Speaker 1: as a six months from now, I suspect this will 611 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: be a or have become a wider war before we 612 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 1: before we go too much further in this year. I 613 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: hope I'm wrong about that, but I'm very curious to 614 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 1: what you see. And let me and let me and 615 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 1: let me just say, I'll lay my cards on the table. 616 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: I was involved in the Israeli elections that deposed net 617 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 1: and Yahoo in the in the coalition after after twenty twenty. 618 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:46,760 Speaker 1: I think he is an amorl leader of a moral 619 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 1: nation that must must when it fights wars, fight wars morally. 620 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: And there's no question when you look at the situation 621 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 1: that net Nyahu's premiership is entirely dependent on the continuation 622 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,799 Speaker 1: of the war. Right so if the if the war 623 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,880 Speaker 1: ends let's say, hypothetically, if you could wave a magic 624 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 1: wand next Thursday, Jimasa is destroyed, it's all over. Hostages 625 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 1: are returned on Friday. Net Nyaho is out of power 626 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 1: on Saturday. So I look at that situation and I 627 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:36,719 Speaker 1: think it is deeply, deeply worrying in terms of the 628 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: possibilities for for escalation. Are the Turks blustering or is 629 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:48,439 Speaker 1: erdigone person with conviction when when he when he speaks, well, 630 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 1: what do you see? 631 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 2: So my fear about Natanyahu is is similar but different, 632 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 2: you know, but slight slightly very slightly varied, which is 633 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,480 Speaker 2: that I worry that Netanyahu is because he's dependent for 634 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,279 Speaker 2: power on this on the very extreme far right of 635 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 2: his coalition, on people who represent a tiny number of 636 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 2: Israelis but have a huge amount of power inside the government. 637 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 2: And I am worried that those people want an extreme 638 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:22,320 Speaker 2: solution in Gaza. And you've actually heard over the last 639 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 2: couple of weeks you've heard different members of the Israeli 640 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 2: government talk about different endings in Gaza. And one version 641 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,720 Speaker 2: is that, you know, we we move in some direction 642 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 2: of Palestinian self rule, or you know, I don't know 643 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 2: whether a two state solution is still possible, but some 644 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:44,720 Speaker 2: some some form of you know, returning Gaza to Palestinian control. 645 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 2: And then you have another faction which is clearly talking 646 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 2: about expelling people from Gaza. And of course the expulsion 647 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 2: of people from Gaza would I think inevitably lead to 648 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 2: a wider regional war. The you know, the idea that 649 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 2: you would have population transfer and a you know, very 650 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,520 Speaker 2: very ugly ugly solution you know, that would inevitate. First 651 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 2: of a would involve Egypt, it might involve other other 652 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 2: countries in the region. You know. Then I can see 653 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:20,320 Speaker 2: the war ending badly. I don't know that that conflict 654 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 2: has been resolved even within Natanya, who's government, you know, 655 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,440 Speaker 2: whether he himself has decided which direction it's going to go. 656 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,880 Speaker 2: But I think the choices that are made about how 657 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 2: to what to do next in Gaza in the next 658 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,880 Speaker 2: days and weeks will you know, will will decide whether 659 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 2: the war, you know, whether it spreads or not. You know, 660 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 2: I agree with you. I think the you know, it 661 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 2: is of course not a coincidence that nata Ya who 662 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 2: is the leader now at this time of crisis, because 663 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,400 Speaker 2: it's his leadership that has helped provoke it and create it, 664 00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:58,879 Speaker 2: you know. At the same time, it's of course also 665 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,319 Speaker 2: a huge tragedy he's the leader at this time of 666 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 2: crisis because he is completely you know, you know, morally 667 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,920 Speaker 2: unqualified to be doing what he's doing. And he is 668 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:14,799 Speaker 2: not capable of leading a you know, uh, you know, 669 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,279 Speaker 2: and he's not capable of bringing about an end to 670 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,799 Speaker 2: this conflict. That is that that is is any way fair. 671 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,439 Speaker 2: I mean even if you think it's you know, maybe 672 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 2: that's impossible anyway. But but his his leadership, you know, 673 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:31,800 Speaker 2: he's someone who has divided Israeli's He's allowed the most 674 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,279 Speaker 2: outrageous and the most extreme voices in Israel to have 675 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:40,399 Speaker 2: an enormous amount of power. And you know, really the 676 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,759 Speaker 2: only hope in Israel is that uh, you know, other 677 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,359 Speaker 2: other parts of what used to be LACUD and other 678 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 2: parts of society eventually are able to take control and 679 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:52,800 Speaker 2: and change the direction of the war and of the situation. 680 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,480 Speaker 1: What a treated is to be able to spend some 681 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 1: time with you. It's for everybody who tunes in. It's 682 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 1: like being able to attend a private graduate school seminar 683 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:10,879 Speaker 1: with one of the smartest learned and most thoughtful observers 684 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,360 Speaker 1: of what's happening in the world. There is an applebaumb 685 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:14,239 Speaker 1: Thank you very much. 686 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 2: Thanks pleasure to talk to you.