Speaker 1: From Bloomberg News and iHeartRadio. It's the Big Take. I'm
Speaker 1: Westcasova today, the rapper who got mixed up in a
Speaker 1: wild global plot Proz Michelle, the famed rapper and founding
Speaker 1: member of the pioneering hip hop group The Fujis, goes
Speaker 1: on federal trial later this month. He's charged with multiple
Speaker 1: counts and what can be described, without a hint of exaggeration,
Speaker 1: as a real life international tale of intrigue. It involves
Speaker 1: a long cast of characters, including a list Hollywood celebrities,
Speaker 1: a fugitive Malaysian businessman, the Chinese government, and both the
Speaker 1: Obama and Trump White Houses. My Bloomberg colleagues Anthony Cormier,
Speaker 1: Jason Leopold and Matthew can Well have captured this whole
Speaker 1: saga in a brilliant story for Business Week, and they're
Speaker 1: here with me now to tell us what they found.
Speaker 1: Matt at the center of this story is a Malaysian businessman.
Speaker 1: His name is Joe Lowe. Can you tell us about him? So, Joel.
Speaker 1: His full name is low Take Joe, but everyone knows
Speaker 1: him as Joe loo. He is a Malaysian financier. He
Speaker 1: is from Penang on the West coast of Malaysia. He
Speaker 1: was the central figure in what is known as the
Speaker 1: one MDB scandal, which is one of the biggest alleged
Speaker 1: frauds of certainly the last twenty or thirty years. The
Speaker 1: central event here was the creation of a sovereign wealth
Speaker 1: fund in Malaysia called one MDB. US prosecutors and others
Speaker 1: alleged that Joe essentially looted billions of dollars out of
Speaker 1: this fund, which he diverted to a yacht, art real
Speaker 1: estate in New York, in Los Ange Angelists, a Bombardier
Speaker 1: corporate jet. He was very well known in certainly in
Speaker 1: Hollywood entertainment circles, particularly notably he financed The Wolf of
Speaker 1: Wall Street, very good Martin Scorsese film. He was throwing
Speaker 1: parties in places like Centrope. He owned a boutique hotel
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles. He had a penthouse in the Mandarin
Speaker 1: Oriental in New York, very closely associated over the years
Speaker 1: of Leonardo DiCaprio, who of course was the star of
Speaker 1: The Wolf of Wall Street. So yeah, if you were
Speaker 1: among a sort of a list social set between about
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine and twenty fifteen, you would very
Speaker 1: likely run into Joe Low and you might get gifts
Speaker 1: worth a few hundred thousand or a few million dollars
Speaker 1: if he took a shine to you. For a period
Speaker 1: of about five years, he was one of the most
Speaker 1: prominent people on basically the global party circuit, and US prosecutors,
Speaker 1: among others, believe that this was all financed with stolen funds.
Speaker 1: Joe's thing was he was known to throw off cash.
Speaker 1: There's a story that we found in some of these
Speaker 1: FBI files in which Kim Kardashian was at a gambling
Speaker 1: sort of event with him in Las Vegas, and they
Speaker 1: were playing baccarat in one of the private rooms. And
Speaker 1: as the men are gathered around the table, including Joe
Speaker 1: and some of his associates, Miss Kardashian is there and
Speaker 1: she's going to leave very early, but a friend sells
Speaker 1: her no, no, hang out for a little bit. Joe
Speaker 1: is known for throwing off chips at the end of
Speaker 1: the night, and so she continued to play baccarat with
Speaker 1: the men, and at the end of the night she
Speaker 1: had some chips. She went to return them to Joe
Speaker 1: and he said, no, no, they're for you, and she
Speaker 1: goes to the cashier at the casino and learns that
Speaker 1: she has three hundred and fifty thousand dollars in winnings.
Speaker 1: This was one of the many times that Joe gave
Speaker 1: celebrities very extraordinary and extravagant gifts. One of the things
Speaker 1: that Joe quite often bought. In addition to artwork and
Speaker 1: real estate, he bought quite a lot of jewelry. But
Speaker 1: he was extraordinarily giving to a model called Miranda Kerr.
Speaker 1: She's given back about eight million dollars in gems, earrings, pendants,
Speaker 1: things of that nature. He was, for all intents and purposes,
Speaker 1: a guy who celebrities were drawn to because of his
Speaker 1: fabulous wealth. Anthony, what do these celebrities say about Joe
Speaker 1: Lowe and his gift giving? We reached out to Miranda Kerr,
Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian, and Leonardo DiCaprio for comment. Representatives for Kerr
Speaker 1: and DiCaprio declined to comment, and a representative for Kim
Speaker 1: Kardashian didn't respond to a detailed list of questions we
Speaker 1: sent Jason. One of the celebrities that Joe wanted to
Speaker 1: get close to was Raz Michelle. How did the two
Speaker 1: of them meet? Praz Michelle is one of founding members
Speaker 1: of the legendary hip hop group the Fujis group that
Speaker 1: sold millions of copies of their second album, The Score
Speaker 1: back in the nineties. And Pros was a person who
Speaker 1: we learned from reporting this story, somebody that really wanted
Speaker 1: to be involved in politics. He was someone that spent
Speaker 1: a considerable amount of time raising money for President Obama's
Speaker 1: reelection campaign back in two and twelve. He had aspirations
Speaker 1: to work as an ambassador. And it's those connections that
Speaker 1: he had in some of the political circles that surrounded
Speaker 1: a former President Obama that Joe wanted to tap into.
Speaker 1: Like most celebrities, they met at a nightclub. Pros is
Speaker 1: invited to a place in the meatpacking district in New
Speaker 1: York City, and all he knows is that the person
Speaker 1: he's with is from Malaysia and has loads of money.
Speaker 1: Gets to the nightclub and there's some sort of brassy
Speaker 1: folks in the crowd who grab the microphone and they're
Speaker 1: trying to show off their wealth, and they tell the
Speaker 1: crowd that they're going to buy everybody a drink. Then
Speaker 1: this really unassuming, portly, baby faced Malaysian man pays twenty
Speaker 1: thousand dollars to grab the microphone, and he decides to
Speaker 1: sell the crowd that he's not just buying everyone a drink,
Speaker 1: but then he's going to buy every single bottle in
Speaker 1: the club, and that the staff members go across the
Speaker 1: street to another nightclub and buy their liquor. Two. That
Speaker 1: gives you a sense of not only Joe those extravagant wealth,
Speaker 1: but how willing he was to share it not only
Speaker 1: with celebrities, but on these really lavish, extravagant parties. So
Speaker 1: this party took place in two thousand and six and
Speaker 1: they didn't reconnect for another five years. When Joe wanted
Speaker 1: to tap into process connections with President Obama and his administration.
Speaker 1: How did politics kind of form the basis of that
Speaker 1: relationship almost from the start. So in twenty twelve, Barack
Speaker 1: Obama is running for reelection. Like a lot of celebrities prose,
Speaker 1: Michelle is a very passionate Obama supporter. He donated a
Speaker 1: fair bit of money. He wanted to raise money, and
Speaker 1: US prosecutors alleged that one of the ways he raised
Speaker 1: money was by getting it from Joelo. This was kind
Speaker 1: of a situation where the stars aligned. Joe wanted to
Speaker 1: build his influence in the US. He wanted to be
Speaker 1: a bigger player. And of course, you know, being a
Speaker 1: donor to someone like Barack Obama helps make you a player,
Speaker 1: and so did Proz. So what is alleged by US
Speaker 1: prosecutors is Joel, who, of course, as a non US citizen,
Speaker 1: is not permitted to be donating to American political campaigns,
Speaker 1: sent about twenty one million dollars to Prize, who then
Speaker 1: turned around and took a portion of that money, about
Speaker 1: two million, and filtered it out to support Obama's reelection effort.
Speaker 1: And this forms the basis of some of the criminal
Speaker 1: case against Pros. Michelle, what do you mean when you
Speaker 1: say filtered it out? Of course, if you are Joel
Speaker 1: Malaysian citizen, you can't just write a check to the
Speaker 1: Obama campaign. They won't take it. They have to be
Speaker 1: convinced that you're not someone who's prohibited from donating, ie,
Speaker 1: only an American or a permanent resident can donate to
Speaker 1: a US political campaign. So what Pros is accused of
Speaker 1: is taking this money from Joelo, using that money to
Speaker 1: make some donations in his own name and in the
Speaker 1: name of one of his companies. Thus making it look
Speaker 1: like this money was coming from him, a US citizen,
Speaker 1: and also filtering out a bunch of this cash to
Speaker 1: what are called straw donors, who are essentially middlemen who
Speaker 1: you know, if I write a check to someone and
Speaker 1: they then turn around and write a check to a
Speaker 1: political campaign, that person is functioning as a straw donor.
Speaker 1: For me, I am the real donor, although on anyone's
Speaker 1: disclosure as far as a campaign is concerned, that middleman
Speaker 1: will be the donor, so it conceals the origins of
Speaker 1: the donation, so you can't see that it came from
Speaker 1: a foreign donor exactly, Jason, What does praz Michelle say
Speaker 1: about all this? So, proz Michelle's lawyer, David Kenner has
Speaker 1: said that proz Michelle he relied on advisors to manage
Speaker 1: his financial activities, essentially saying that he didn't do anything
Speaker 1: wrong and that he related on experts to advise him
Speaker 1: on how he should proceed. And Joe's desire to get
Speaker 1: close to the top of the US government kind of
Speaker 1: paid off that he actually was able to meet President Obama.
Speaker 1: Joe had this desire to be seen and photographed with,
Speaker 1: certainly with celebrities and and Obama was, you know, the
Speaker 1: political figure that he really wanted to be seen with.
Speaker 1: In two thousand and twelve, there are campaign events being
Speaker 1: planned and Praz is urging to allow Joe to attend
Speaker 1: some of these fundraising events, which he's not allowed to
Speaker 1: first of all because he's being told he's a he's
Speaker 1: a foreigner, and just that's something they can't do. And
Speaker 1: finally gets to the end in two thousand and twelve,
Speaker 1: in around November twenty and twelve, where there's a holiday
Speaker 1: party at the White House and Prose again asks can
Speaker 1: Joe go? Can he attend this? And while he's there,
Speaker 1: he's photographed with President Obama. And so that's sort of
Speaker 1: like this big trophy for Joe to have this photograph,
Speaker 1: and that you know, made him feel good just having that,
Speaker 1: and it also put Prase into a position where he
Speaker 1: could actually helped sell the fact that he had these connections.
Speaker 1: And that was certainly one of those instances where optics
Speaker 1: were very important, Joe being seen with Obama, Prose being
Speaker 1: in his own right planning a campaign event as well
Speaker 1: where he too is seated with President Obama. The relationship
Speaker 1: between PRIs and Joe seems to be going pretty well
Speaker 1: until the one MDB scandal just explodes. What happens then Anthony,
Speaker 1: The FBI begins an investigation of how the money was
Speaker 1: looted from one MDB and where it went. And what
Speaker 1: Joe does is he as this investigation heats up around him,
Speaker 1: he turns first to Prose, figuring the Prose has a
Speaker 1: rolodex of friends and politics, particularly in the Obama administration,
Speaker 1: and then he turns to the Chinese which is one
Speaker 1: of the few places on the globe that might be
Speaker 1: able to protect him from the long arm of American
Speaker 1: law enforcement. What he asks of Prose is to assemble
Speaker 1: a team of influential political figures to begin to knock
Speaker 1: back the forfeiture complaints and the investigations of his business dealings.
Speaker 1: So Jolo turns to Praz, who has these connections to
Speaker 1: the Obama administration. But it's now twenty seventeen, the obamaministration
Speaker 1: is out, this is the Trump administration, and he doesn't
Speaker 1: have the same kind of rolodex or connections that he
Speaker 1: would have in the past. So what Praz does is
Speaker 1: he begins to reach out to individuals who are close
Speaker 1: to the Republican administration. Our story continues after the break, Anthony,
Speaker 1: as you report, the FEDS are circling around Jolo looking
Speaker 1: for the billion stolen in the one MDB scandal, and
Speaker 1: Joe s his friend, the rapper Pras Michelle for help
Speaker 1: finding a sympathetic year in a new Trump White House.
Speaker 1: What does Pras do? First? He turns to businesswoman and
Speaker 1: TV producer based in Hawaii called Nicki lum Davis. She
Speaker 1: had long supported Republican causes, She had connections in Republican circles,
Speaker 1: and Niki lum Davis suggests that Pras reach out to
Speaker 1: a Republican fundraiser based in California called Elliott Broidy. So
Speaker 1: what they wanted Broidy to do was essentially use his connections,
Speaker 1: his connections to the Trump administration. He had been a
Speaker 1: well known fundraiser, He had connections to new individuals who
Speaker 1: were being appointed within the Trump administration, notably Jeff Sessions
Speaker 1: who was tapped to be Trump's Attorney General, and use
Speaker 1: those connections to help get this one MDB case dropped
Speaker 1: and essentially get the heat off the show. You know.
Speaker 1: In order to secure Brody's help, Lowe had to first
Speaker 1: pay a retainer to him of eight million dollars if
Speaker 1: he was successful in getting the Justice Department to drop
Speaker 1: you any forfeiture actions related to one MDB in a
Speaker 1: certain timeframe six months was initially discussed. It would cost
Speaker 1: Joe seventy five million dollars, and it took longer than that,
Speaker 1: it would be fifty million. So right out of the gate,
Speaker 1: Broidy sees dollar signs and they're off to the races.
Speaker 1: Broidy did go to the administration and plead Joe's case.
Speaker 1: How did that go? Broidy and lum Davis did try
Speaker 1: to get the Trump administration to back off its pursuit
Speaker 1: of Jolo and of assets believed to be improperly accumulated
Speaker 1: through the looting of one MDB. They didn't really get anywhere.
Speaker 1: They did certainly try at the top levels of the
Speaker 1: US government. But this was a really big DOJ prosecution.
Speaker 1: It had already attained a sort of momentum that would
Speaker 1: have made it very difficult to stop at this point. So,
Speaker 1: despite the best efforts of Broidy and lum Davis, the
Speaker 1: Trump administration did continue going after Joe Lowe and all
Speaker 1: the assets that he and his allies had accumulated around
Speaker 1: the world. Anthony, what do Elliot Broidy and Nicky lum
Speaker 1: Davis say about their alleged role in this We reached
Speaker 1: out to Elliot Broidy and Nicky lum Davis for comment.
Speaker 1: A representative for mister Broidy declined to comment, and representatives
Speaker 1: for missus Davis didn't respond to a detailed list of
Speaker 1: questions we sent mad. In the story, you write that
Speaker 1: Joe is getting concerned that he's not going to be
Speaker 1: able to make these charges go away, and he's looking
Speaker 1: for a different way out. So in the spring of
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, this very flamboyant I think is the word
Speaker 1: Chinese billionaire named Guongue starts getting into the news. He
Speaker 1: is a real estate developer from Beijing who moves to
Speaker 1: New York, takes up a massive apartment in the Cherry
Speaker 1: Netherland on Fifth Avenue with this amazing view of Central Park,
Speaker 1: and he sort of wears kind of funny outfits and
Speaker 1: gives a lot of media interviews, and he's kind of
Speaker 1: a curiosity to start, except then he starts making really
Speaker 1: amazing claims about corruption and the top leadership of the
Speaker 1: Communist Party, and very specific claims about, for example, the
Speaker 1: families of certain leaders owning major assets. A lot of
Speaker 1: this was never proven. In fact, I think all of
Speaker 1: it was never proven. Most of it was denied over
Speaker 1: the years. But he certainly had people's attention, and Guo
Speaker 1: definitely had the attention of the Chinese government because one
Speaker 1: of the red lines in China is talking about the
Speaker 1: wealth of the leadership. That is a subject that is
Speaker 1: the most sensitive imaginable. So at this time, China is,
Speaker 1: as we reported, looking for ways to silence Guo, And
Speaker 1: the position of the Chinese government in this period is
Speaker 1: Guo as a criminal. He's implicated in all kinds of
Speaker 1: white collar crime. We need to get him back, and
Speaker 1: we need to get him back by extraditing him on
Speaker 1: these non political offenses bribery, embezzlement, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: They clearly want him quiet and silenced and back in
Speaker 1: China where he can disappear. So at this point, with
Speaker 1: the government in Beijing very upset about Quo, very eager
Speaker 1: to silence him, Joe Lowe turns to prose Michel, his
Speaker 1: friend the Fuji's Rapper, to put together an effort to
Speaker 1: convince the US government to essentially kick Guoengue out of
Speaker 1: New York. This is the chaotic early days of the
Speaker 1: Trump administration when kind of anything's possible, so it wasn't
Speaker 1: totally crazy for Joel and the Americans he ended up
Speaker 1: working with to think that they could press the Trump
Speaker 1: administration to allow or indeed to actually send Guo Ho
Speaker 1: Jolo was working on two priorities simultaneously, One to get
Speaker 1: the US to drop its pursuit of one MDB it
Speaker 1: drop its investigation of this huge alleged financial fraud, and
Speaker 1: two to curry favor with China, basically as a plan B,
Speaker 1: so that Joelo would have a place to go if
Speaker 1: the worst happened and he ended up getting indicted, as
Speaker 1: indeed he was in late twenty eighteen. It's important to
Speaker 1: note that Guo has always denied wrongdoing in relation to
Speaker 1: these offenses of which he's been accused by China, and
Speaker 1: has said the Chinese government is pursuing a political vendetta
Speaker 1: against him. Anthony report that despite all this plotting to
Speaker 1: influence the White House, none of this was actually working,
Speaker 1: and the advert to a curry favor with China wasn't
Speaker 1: working either. What happened the matter isn't being taken very
Speaker 1: seriously by the top levels of the Trump administration, at
Speaker 1: least in the beginning, and clearly as our documents and
Speaker 1: our reporting show that the FBI's International Corruption Unit is
Speaker 1: marching right along investigating witnesses, scoping out bank accounts. They
Speaker 1: are really forging ahead with a criminal inquiry of Low
Speaker 1: and others. And so the Chinese learned that the Glow
Speaker 1: matter hasn't really proceeded. One way that they come up
Speaker 1: with to get this idea a hearing at the highest
Speaker 1: level is to call Steve Win. A lot of people
Speaker 1: know the Win casinos in Las Vegas. Steve Win is
Speaker 1: the founder of Win Resorts. Like a lot of casino companies,
Speaker 1: the big money at Win comes from not Vegas, but Macau,
Speaker 1: which is the largest gambling hub in the world. So
Speaker 1: Wins someone who had done a lot of business in China,
Speaker 1: dealt with Chinese officials over the years, and crucially had
Speaker 1: access to President Trump. So Broidie asks when to put
Speaker 1: in a word with President Trump about Guoangue, this exiled
Speaker 1: billionaire living in New York who China wanted back. When
Speaker 1: does so? He brings up this matter with President Trump
Speaker 1: at a dinner in the White House in late June
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. He drops off a copy of Guo's passport
Speaker 1: with Trump's secretary in the course of attending this dinner,
Speaker 1: so that everyone knows who they're talking about. He then,
Speaker 1: through that summer July and August of seventeen, has a
Speaker 1: number of conversations with White House officials where he emphasizes
Speaker 1: that China really wants Guo sent home and would be
Speaker 1: willing to do various things for the US in exchange
Speaker 1: for that happening. Now, Win has maintained, and his lawyers
Speaker 1: have maintained repeatedly that his role here was just a messenger,
Speaker 1: was just taking information from China to the White House,
Speaker 1: nothing more, not a lobbyist, you know, certainly not acting
Speaker 1: on behalf of the Chinese. The doj disagreed and actually
Speaker 1: sued to force Win to register as what's called a
Speaker 1: foreign agent for the Chinese government. Win ended up winning
Speaker 1: that case and convincing a judge that he did not
Speaker 1: need to register. The US has a very unusual piece
Speaker 1: of legislations called the Foreign Agents Registration Act. Yeah Farah,
Speaker 1: And essentially what Farah means is, if you are working
Speaker 1: on behalf of a so called foreign principle meeting a
Speaker 1: foreign government or even a foreign company doing lobbying work
Speaker 1: in the United States, you have to register with the
Speaker 1: Justice Department, and you have to file these very detailed
Speaker 1: disclosures that say what you were paid, what you were doing,
Speaker 1: who worked on it, that sort of thing. These registrations are,
Speaker 1: as you can imagine, a gold mine for journalists. They're
Speaker 1: absolutely incredible. If you do not regis and you lobby
Speaker 1: on behalf of a foreign principle, you can get into
Speaker 1: very deep trouble. And indeed that's part of what our
Speaker 1: characters here were accused of. In the end, Jason, all
Speaker 1: three of you are telling this story with a lot
Speaker 1: of insider detail. How did you find all of this out?
Speaker 1: How do you know all the details in your story?
Speaker 1: We used quite a bit of public records, court documents.
Speaker 1: We also spoke to people close to the case. In
Speaker 1: addition to that, we were able to review FBI and
Speaker 1: Department of Justice records, and these records provided extraordinary insight.
Speaker 1: So let me set the scene for you a bit.
Speaker 1: You know, the FBI is reaching out to representatives or
Speaker 1: attorneys for these celebrities or other individuals that are sort
Speaker 1: of caught up in this investigation, and they're trying to
Speaker 1: arrange interviews with Leonardo DiCaprio, with Kim Kardashian, and in
Speaker 1: some instances they're just sending a list of questions and
Speaker 1: their lawyers respond But in the case of Leonardo DiCaprio
Speaker 1: and Kim Kardashian, who also did sit for interviews with
Speaker 1: the FBI, you know, the FBI asked them very pointed questions,
Speaker 1: and those questions were, how do you know Jolo, when
Speaker 1: did you meet, what did he give you? And they're
Speaker 1: explaining that in great detail, But it goes even further
Speaker 1: because the FBI has asked for evidence. So in many instances,
Speaker 1: the government has obtained emails, photographs, of various types of
Speaker 1: records from these folks that really does lay bare exactly
Speaker 1: what they received from Jolo, and they were able to
Speaker 1: kind of follow the money and trace it to one MDP.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back in the end. Despite all of
Speaker 1: this effort, the US didn't drop its investigation of one MDB.
Speaker 1: Guo was never extradited back to China, and all of
Speaker 1: these efforts were sort of fruitless. So where do things
Speaker 1: stand now with all the people who were involved in
Speaker 1: this story. Nicky lum Davis pleaded guilty to one count
Speaker 1: of aiding and abetting violation of Farah, which is that
Speaker 1: legislation which requires anyone lobbying for a foreign client to
Speaker 1: register with the Justice Department. Broidy pleaded guilty to one
Speaker 1: count of conspiracy to violate Farah. That was in October
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty, but he was then pardoned by President
Speaker 1: Trump in his final hours in office, so he didn't
Speaker 1: end up doing any time. Nicki lum Davis was recently
Speaker 1: sentenced to two years in prison for her own guilty
Speaker 1: plea and Anthony What happened to pras Michelle So Proz
Speaker 1: faces the trial of his life. He's been charged with
Speaker 1: ten very serious crimes, ranging from witness tampering to conspiracy.
Speaker 1: He goes on trial in late March, and he has
Speaker 1: got really this very unusual witness list that promises to
Speaker 1: make the trial very interesting publicly. Among the potential witnesses
Speaker 1: are Presidents Obama and Trump, as well as the world's
Speaker 1: most famous movie star, Leonardo DiCaprio. Why didn't he take
Speaker 1: a plea like the others? Proz maintains that he is innocent.
Speaker 1: His attorney will tell you that Praz was just acting
Speaker 1: as a connector. He didn't in fact mean to lobby
Speaker 1: on behalf of a foreign official government, and that he
Speaker 1: believes the US government the FBI has long been trying
Speaker 1: to flip him to get him to cooperate, and when
Speaker 1: he did not, they decided to charge him with these
Speaker 1: very serious offenses. If he's convicted, p stand to serve
Speaker 1: the most time as anyone convicted in the US on
Speaker 1: these very serious charges. What's really fascinating about the records
Speaker 1: that we've been able to review that have not been
Speaker 1: disclosed before is how important the FBI and prosecutors saw
Speaker 1: prose as being a potential witness in their investigation into
Speaker 1: one MDB, and they note that they want to essentially
Speaker 1: try to leverage him to become a cooperating witness and
Speaker 1: try to get him to cop to a plea as
Speaker 1: it related to these other crimes when he refused. One
Speaker 1: of the reasons that he refused, and his lawyer would
Speaker 1: say this is that they wanted him to plead guilty
Speaker 1: to a fair violation. It would require him to serve
Speaker 1: more than a year in prison and essentially give up
Speaker 1: the bulk of his wealth, and they felt that that
Speaker 1: was unfair in addition to the fact that he thought
Speaker 1: he had not committed any crimes. But you get to
Speaker 1: see really behind the scenes when the FBI is communicating
Speaker 1: with the Justice Department. What they're saying is is if
Speaker 1: Proz does not cooperate, he knows what's coming right, And
Speaker 1: what ultimately came was this superseding indictment which listed or
Speaker 1: identified even more serious crimes that he's going on trial
Speaker 1: for now. At the end of March, Matt China didn't
Speaker 1: manage to have going way extradited. Where is he now?
Speaker 1: So Guo, despite the very energetic efforts of the Chinese
Speaker 1: government to get him sent home, did not end up
Speaker 1: being deported or extradited. It's not totally clear why that happened.
Speaker 1: How he was able to keep his perch in the
Speaker 1: US may have something to do with his friendship with
Speaker 1: Steve Bannon, who kind of glommed on to Guo around
Speaker 1: mid to late twenty seventeen and became one of his
Speaker 1: close allies. He remains in the US. He's been trying
Speaker 1: to sell his apartment in the Sherry, Netherland. I believe
Speaker 1: the price has been cut a couple of times, and
Speaker 1: it's still in the market. At last check, he was
Speaker 1: living in Connecticut, involved in various business ventures. He's had
Speaker 1: a very eventful, a very eventful life. But from his perspective,
Speaker 1: what's important is he remains safely in America and not
Speaker 1: back in China. And Anthony, where is Joelo? I think
Speaker 1: that's the four billion dollar question, right, I mean, the
Speaker 1: US government has been trying to find him. I can't
Speaker 1: count how many journalists have been trying to find him.
Speaker 1: By all appearances, the last public appearance that has been
Speaker 1: reported was at the Shanghai Disneyland where he was spotted
Speaker 1: with his family. He has not been brought back to
Speaker 1: the US and remains a fugitive, even though the US
Speaker 1: government would like to charge him with you very very
Speaker 1: serious offenses, Matt, At the end of this incredible saga,
Speaker 1: what do you take away from this? Where I see
Speaker 1: the takeaway here have to do with the US China
Speaker 1: relationship and Chinese foreign policy. We see in this story
Speaker 1: a really vivid example of how determined the Chinese government
Speaker 1: was to neutralize what it saw as a threat. Guoangue
Speaker 1: and his claims about corruption at the highest levels of
Speaker 1: the Communist Party. They were incredibly determined, and while Guo
Speaker 1: managed to stay in the US, it certainly wasn't for
Speaker 1: lack of trying by the Chinese government and with various
Speaker 1: people contracted to help. And I think that's interesting in
Speaker 1: light of some of what we've seen in the news
Speaker 1: lately about Chinese efforts to sort of extend the reach
Speaker 1: of law enforcement around the world. There's been a number
Speaker 1: of stories recently about Chinese police stations popping up, notably
Speaker 1: in Europe and in Canada, which a lot of governments
Speaker 1: are concerned are kind of beachheads for China to harass dissidents,
Speaker 1: to push for the repatriation of people who, for whatever
Speaker 1: reason it wants back, and essentially operate kind of outside
Speaker 1: any of the formal legal and diplomatic strictures that typically
Speaker 1: regulate kind of law enforcement relations between countries. So I
Speaker 1: think we saw in this story a really remarkable tale
Speaker 1: of just how far this broader phenomenon went in one
Speaker 1: instance and might go again in the future. For me,
Speaker 1: it's another example of how money acts as a lubricant
Speaker 1: to both parties, celebrities and films, but also the very
Speaker 1: tippy top of the American political structure, and Joe had
Speaker 1: money which gave him access to not only a list stars,
Speaker 1: literally the White House itself. We see how the allure
Speaker 1: of that money attracted people who felt like they could
Speaker 1: further his own twists as well as sort of their
Speaker 1: personal ones. Anthony Jason Matt thanks so much for coming
Speaker 1: on the show. Thank you us, thank you, thanks for
Speaker 1: having us, Thanks for listening to us here at The
Speaker 1: Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio.
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Speaker 1: Big Take is Vicky Bergolina. Our senior producer is Katherine Fink.
Speaker 1: Federico Romanello is our producer. Our associate producer is Zenob Sidiki.
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Speaker 1: composed by Leo Sidrin. I'm west Kasova. We'll be back
Speaker 1: tomorrow with another Big Take.