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Speaker 1: Ye, Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keane.

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Speaker 1: Daily we bring you insight from the best in economics, finance,

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Speaker 1: investment and international relations. Find Bloomberg Surveillance on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com, and of course on the Bloomberg John

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Speaker 1: Farrell and Tom Keane and we welcome all of you,

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Speaker 1: particularly and serious in examy in Texas and in the

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Speaker 1: district of the Federal Reserve System of Texas with us

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Speaker 1: Robert Kapp and he is President of the Chief Executive

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Speaker 1: Officer of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas. One of

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Speaker 1: the high points for my year was our extended conversation

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Speaker 1: at the Council on Foreign Relations. Also one of the

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Speaker 1: high points of my year was when Michael McKee was

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Speaker 1: given the honor of final questions that chare yelling an

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Speaker 1: insulted the chair by asking her which dot was her?

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Speaker 1: Did you ask President Caplan of Dallas which dot was his? Did? Actually,

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Speaker 1: we'll do it again, because, uh, you know, the idea

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Speaker 1: of how many rate increases from the Fed next year

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Speaker 1: is paramount uh on everybody's mind on Wall Street. So

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Speaker 1: why don't we why don't we start with that oddly.

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Speaker 1: For some reason, Rob Kaplan has always been a longtime

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Speaker 1: fan of Bloomberg surveillance, so maybe he'll let us get

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Speaker 1: away with this. Um. It's one of the My father

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Speaker 1: darkened the door of a small college and college station,

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Speaker 1: Texas where there were no girls at the time. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: leaving all that aside, UH, where is your dot? And

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Speaker 1: uh do you think three rate moves in two thousand

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Speaker 1: eighteen is a reasonable assumption? Well, and I said to you, Uh,

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Speaker 1: and we've talked before. UM, gradual and patient is my

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Speaker 1: is my key comment. My own dot was three h

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Speaker 1: Whether it will turn out that way, we'll have to see. Um.

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Speaker 1: And and what would change? The economy could grow faster

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Speaker 1: than I expect. Uh, we can make more progress on unemployment.

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Speaker 1: Inflation might cause me to be higher than three or um. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The tenure treasury is something I'll be watching. And what

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Speaker 1: the tenure does will also influence how many rate increases

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Speaker 1: next year. Yeld curve is something I'll be watching carefully,

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Speaker 1: so that could augur the other way. The yield curve

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Speaker 1: is flattening. UM, and I wonder whether what the signal

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Speaker 1: really is there because most people would say there's a

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Speaker 1: massive balance sheet over the ECB. There's a massive balance

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Speaker 1: sheet over the b J, and that's why we've got

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Speaker 1: this flattening. That's why the tenure yield's not rising. Do

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Speaker 1: you see anything in that does that? Aren't you resonate

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Speaker 1: with you? So it's a part of it, and by

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Speaker 1: the way, I wish it was. I wish that was

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Speaker 1: all of it. But my my own view is a

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Speaker 1: part of what's going on is global liquidity. But I

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Speaker 1: think the bigger part of why the tenure is muted

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Speaker 1: is sluggish expectations for out year GDP growth. And what

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Speaker 1: I mean by that if you look at what potential

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Speaker 1: GDP growth is five years from now, I think it

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Speaker 1: is actually declining from where we are today. Why is

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Speaker 1: that happening? Aging demographic slowing workforce growth, and sluggish productivity

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Speaker 1: unless the United States improves early childhood literacy, college readiness,

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Speaker 1: and middle skills training. So I think the tenure treasury

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Speaker 1: tells you more about expectations for future growth, which are sluggish.

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Speaker 1: And so if you told me we were going to

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Speaker 1: have solid GDP growth the next two or three years,

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Speaker 1: trailing off to maybe below two percent five years from now,

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Speaker 1: I would have expected a flatish yield curve, and that's

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Speaker 1: what you're seeing. But you expect the need to address

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Speaker 1: structural issues from your response just that. So what's the

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Speaker 1: Fed's role in this? Fed? FED has a part in this,

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Speaker 1: but not all of it. And I've been a big

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Speaker 1: advocate of saying monetary policy is going to be a

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Speaker 1: key part of economic policy the next five years. But

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Speaker 1: structural reform. Worms were at the stage where we need

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Speaker 1: structure re forms. What do I mean regulatory review is

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Speaker 1: a good thing. Uh, the corporate The elements of the

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Speaker 1: tax bill that involve corporate tax reform I think are constructive.

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Speaker 1: We'll come back to the rest of it. I think

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Speaker 1: beefing up education. We are lagging in this country in

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Speaker 1: terms of educational attainment. It's hurting productivity. And lastly, middle

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Speaker 1: skills training is going to be essential, particularly an economy

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Speaker 1: where technology enabled disruption is accelerating, and I think we're

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Speaker 1: lagging in those areas. You're talking about the tenure as

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Speaker 1: an indicator of the market's view of long term potential growth.

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Speaker 1: That is completely different than the man down in Washington

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Speaker 1: who seems to think the tax cut is going to

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Speaker 1: change the whole fundamental picture for the United States? Is

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Speaker 1: the market wrong or is the president wrong? So let

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Speaker 1: me answer it this way. I've been in the markets

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Speaker 1: my entire adult life and been watching them since I

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Speaker 1: was before I was an adult, And what I learned

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Speaker 1: is I don't always know what the market is saying,

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Speaker 1: but I know it always pays attention to try to

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Speaker 1: decipher what it's saying. And I think the market is

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Speaker 1: saying the bond market is saying expectations for future growth

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Speaker 1: are sluggish, and I think it's worth paying attention to that.

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Speaker 1: We know Chairman Paul is not listening this morning. He's

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Speaker 1: at the dentist. Getting a root can help. I believe

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Speaker 1: in Chris Kringle, You're gonna be giving the gift that

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Speaker 1: keeps on giving to Jerome Powell, and that would be

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Speaker 1: I know what you told me, what you're gonna buy you.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna get him a copy of What you really

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Speaker 1: Need to lead your heart, your wonderful book. You no

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Speaker 1: doubt bought it off Amazon, Chapter four. You can't do

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Speaker 1: this alone. Learning to build relationships and harness the power

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Speaker 1: of a group Blogny. There were two cents. Every chairman

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Speaker 1: is different. What do you presume will be the method

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Speaker 1: of Governor Paul as he becomes chairman. So the good

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Speaker 1: thing j Pale is outstanding. We've been working together for

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Speaker 1: I've been working together with him for more than two years.

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Speaker 1: He's been on the FED board for a number of years.

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Speaker 1: And the most important thing, and I think Jay will

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Speaker 1: be a great leader for this is debate, disagreement, UH

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Speaker 1: and UM and to extend humanly policy possible a lack

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Speaker 1: of politics, and I think Jay will take that approach.

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Speaker 1: Give us a window of what happens at that long

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Speaker 1: wooden table. So here here's what happens. We meet on

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Speaker 1: Monday UH in d C, and we normally have committee meetings.

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Speaker 1: The f O m C starts on Tuesday, and we

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Speaker 1: sit around the table. Each of us talks for ten

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Speaker 1: minutes and gives our views of the economy and and

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Speaker 1: we debated out on day one, that's Tuesday. And on Wednesday,

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Speaker 1: we each for ten minutes give our view on monetary policy.

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Speaker 1: The chair goes last, as they do on Tuesday, and

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Speaker 1: the chair goes last. We debate that out and then

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Speaker 1: in the last thirteen seconds of the meeting we vote.

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Speaker 1: And so the nice thing about the f O m

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Speaker 1: C process, the federal up a market committee process is

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Speaker 1: we debate, we disagree, and if someone in the room

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Speaker 1: says something, regardless who they are, and I don't agree

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Speaker 1: with it, I'm gonna raise my hand, and vice versa.

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Speaker 1: And we're each trying to listen, carefully, learn and add insight.

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Speaker 1: And so I think it's a pretty healthy dynamic. So

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Speaker 1: the man from Minneapolis turns around on Wednesday afternoon and

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Speaker 1: says to you guys, no, no, because there's a message

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Speaker 1: in the bond market to slow down. You guys should

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Speaker 1: slow down. What do you say back to the man

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Speaker 1: from Minneapolis. So I think the nice thing, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's it's excellent. I think it's a good thing

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Speaker 1: that we have disagreement, we have people willing to dissent. Uh.

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Speaker 1: We gotta remember, we've been debating. We've been debating around

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Speaker 1: the table each of our views. So what happens in

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Speaker 1: the last thirteen seconds of the meeting when we vote

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Speaker 1: is not a surprise. We already know every each other's

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Speaker 1: views and we debate amount and we disagree. Some of

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Speaker 1: the disagreements get resolved and some go unresolved. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's a good thing. If you my my, my

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Speaker 1: rebuttal though, just so you know, is I believe we

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Speaker 1: need to take a balanced approach to monetary policy. I'm

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Speaker 1: more of a centrist. That means you you look at

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Speaker 1: the degree of the full employment overshoot, which I think

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Speaker 1: is going to be substantial in two thousand eighteen. You

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Speaker 1: look at the degree of the inflation undershoot, which I've

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Speaker 1: been a big advocate of, saying part of it is cyclical,

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Speaker 1: but bigger part of it is structural. And when I

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Speaker 1: weigh those two, I think we'd be well served here

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Speaker 1: to remove accommodation, because what you don't want to do

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Speaker 1: is wait too long to where your playing catch up. Michael,

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Speaker 1: get one last one. Not in the Denver brodcast or

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Speaker 1: the Dallas Cowboys, neither one having a season to remember. Um,

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Speaker 1: although cowboys getting a little better. Well, the broadcast will

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Speaker 1: debate that outside the studio, right. Uh back to that debate,

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Speaker 1: though you say we get a substantial overshooting undershoot in

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Speaker 1: terms of that unemployment rate, you got a number for that.

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Speaker 1: Uh No, I mean there the full employment what is

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Speaker 1: theory is a theotal radical level will know it in hindsight,

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Speaker 1: But our judgment of the Dallas Fed is we're already

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Speaker 1: either there or we're under it. Here's the number I

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Speaker 1: look at. I like to look not at the unemployment rate.

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Speaker 1: I look at you six. As we've mentioned before, unemployed

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Speaker 1: plus discourage workers plus people working part time for economic

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Speaker 1: reasons is eight percent, the prerecession low. We're basically at

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Speaker 1: the prerecession. That's the number I watch quickly. Does the

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Speaker 1: text legislation make the American economy more Texas Like? Uh,

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Speaker 1: here's my here, here's there's here's the positive of them

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Speaker 1: of this legislation. I think corporate tax reform, incentives for

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Speaker 1: people to locate their businesses in the United States are positive.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the posities of Texas why people

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Speaker 1: are coming. It's a very attractive place to locate your business,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of other things, uh no, no state tax, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: The part that I'm concerned about is the part that's

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Speaker 1: a tax cut financed by increasing the deficit makes a

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Speaker 1: problem that's already unsustainable more challenging, and that's my concernin

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Michael McKee, Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: as well. Dr Caplin, Thank you with the Dallas Fed

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Speaker 1: as well, Champ Farron, Tom King's this is Bloomberg and

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Speaker 1: now for the Minneapolis Fed the dissenter Neil cush Curry, Neil,

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Speaker 1: wonderful to have you with us this morning. Is there

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Speaker 1: a distinction between your descent and that of the descent

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Speaker 1: of Mr Evans of Chicago or are they saying the

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Speaker 1: same thing? First of all, Tom, nice to chat with you.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. I think Charlie Evans and I

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Speaker 1: are probably in the same place. We're both worried about

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Speaker 1: low inflation and low inflation expectations and the risk that

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Speaker 1: that could become anchored in the economy, and how difficult

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Speaker 1: that is to deal with if it does become anchored. Neil,

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Speaker 1: why is there a message in the bond market this

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Speaker 1: time around, when there was such big balance sheets at

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Speaker 1: the e c P and b l J keeping a

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Speaker 1: lid on long term yields. Why did you still see

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Speaker 1: a message in the yield curve? Well, I think the

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Speaker 1: fact that I mean there's I mean, I agree term

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Speaker 1: premiums are low now, and so some people say, well,

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Speaker 1: this is different because of the big quis and the

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Speaker 1: balance sheets that are out there. But the fact that

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Speaker 1: the long end of the curve is not responding to

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Speaker 1: our rate increases and not responding to the tax cut

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Speaker 1: package that has now come together. I think there is

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Speaker 1: information contained in that. I mean, even if the quees

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Speaker 1: are still having some effect, I would still expect to

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Speaker 1: see some movement in the long end of the curve

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Speaker 1: in response to this new information. The fact that it's

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Speaker 1: not and we're, in my opinion, we're sending a very

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Speaker 1: hawkish signal by raising rates at a time of low

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Speaker 1: and seemingly falling inflation. I think the FED is responsible

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Speaker 1: for pushing up the front end and keeping a lid

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Speaker 1: on the back end, so going full ward. I just

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Speaker 1: wonder what this means for policy. It's the message in

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Speaker 1: the yield curve recession risk, because most people would say

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Speaker 1: it's not that, it's the message slowed down. Is that

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Speaker 1: what you've taken away from its slowed down or recession risk?

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Speaker 1: I think it's Look, it could be both. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, every time somebody says this time is different,

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Speaker 1: they usually end up regretting saying that because it ends up.

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Speaker 1: You know, the future looks more like history than we

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Speaker 1: maybe we recognize at the time. Number one. Number two,

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Speaker 1: the fact is, if the bond market is telling us

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Speaker 1: that they've got low inflation expectations, or they're pricing in

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Speaker 1: a local low neutral real interest rate, a low our

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Speaker 1: star as we call it. Both of those should be

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Speaker 1: telling us, hey, we should be cautious about raising interest

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Speaker 1: rates further until we actually see the inflationary pressures building.

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Speaker 1: You know, when I first dissented in March, I was

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Speaker 1: just saying, I don't see any inflationary pressures building. Why

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Speaker 1: are we raising rates. What's happened since then, inflation has

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Speaker 1: actually fallen, not gone up. I think we should take

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Speaker 1: these signals seriously. Each voice is just inctive. You are

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Speaker 1: the engineer at the FED. Twenty years ago, you were

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Speaker 1: in the acclaimed Sun Race, which was an intercollegiate solar

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Speaker 1: car race Illinois. I believe did better than good within

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Speaker 1: that race. Is there physics envy at the FED? Do

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Speaker 1: you look around, you know, from a Newtonian standpoint of

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Speaker 1: where you are, do you look around at people being

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Speaker 1: too mathy, too certain in their physics versus what you

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Speaker 1: observe within the economy. Well, I I do think there's

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Speaker 1: some of that, and I think I've described it as

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Speaker 1: a as a tension between faith and data. I think

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Speaker 1: there's some folks who have tremendous faith in the Phillips

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Speaker 1: curve that this is the way the economy works. Labor

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Speaker 1: markets get tight, wages go up. That leads to inflation

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Speaker 1: versus looking at the data. And I I keep coming

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Speaker 1: back to what is the data actually telling us? And

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Speaker 1: we're trying to assess supply and demand in the labor market.

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Speaker 1: If you want to assess supply and demand in a market,

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Speaker 1: let's start by looking at the price. What is the

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Speaker 1: price telling us, Well, we know that wage growth is

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Speaker 1: not accelerating. We've been expecting it to accelerate, but it's

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Speaker 1: not accelerating. That tells me there's probably still more slack

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Speaker 1: in the labor market and that's why we're not seeing

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Speaker 1: these pressures building. Now, do you have any on data

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Speaker 1: on how much lower unemployment can gug because we're in

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Speaker 1: the low full as you're looking for something in the

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Speaker 1: low threes. Well, I think that that number is uh,

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Speaker 1: probably somewhat distorted right now because if you look at

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Speaker 1: prime age labor force participation, so workers roughly fifty five,

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Speaker 1: there are still more than a million workers on the sidelines.

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Speaker 1: If you look at labor force participation and employment to

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Speaker 1: population ratios. Now, can all million be brought back in?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but it does seem to be that

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Speaker 1: there's more slack in the labor market than that headline

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Speaker 1: unemployment rates suggests. I mean, what we're learning is that

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Speaker 1: the deep that the Great Recession was so destructive to

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Speaker 1: the labor market, some of these measures are a little

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Speaker 1: broken right now, that the measures themselves seem to be

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Speaker 1: flawed right now. A lot of people are criticizing you,

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Speaker 1: MR because you're looking simplistically at the dynamics of the

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Speaker 1: yield curve in your essay on the Minieapolis FED website.

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Speaker 1: You go right to it and you say, what is new?

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Speaker 1: Is the flattening yield curve? Is it new in the

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Speaker 1: recent months or is it new in FED history that

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Speaker 1: we're getting these odds fixed income dynamics. No, it's new recently.

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Speaker 1: I mean we've seen flattening yield curves before. We saw

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Speaker 1: it in the mid two thousands, we saw it in

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Speaker 1: the late nine nineties, and by the way, look at

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Speaker 1: both of those periods. In the late nineties and in

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Speaker 1: the mid two thousand's, the stock market was rocketing. So

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Speaker 1: I don't take any comfort from the fact that the

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Speaker 1: yield curve is flattening and the stock market is rocketing

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Speaker 1: because it's done it in the past, and the bond

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Speaker 1: market was right and the stock market was wrong. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not predicting a recession. I'm simply saying inflation is low.

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Speaker 1: It's been falling this year. Why are we in such

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Speaker 1: a rush to go raise rates? Why not actually allow

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Speaker 1: that inflation to reveal itself. Well, you know, we have

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Speaker 1: very powerful tools to deal with high inflation. We are

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Speaker 1: very limited tools to deal with low inflation soil, So

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Speaker 1: why are we jumping the gun? The pushback will be

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Speaker 1: financial distortions, negative yielding debt north and nine trillion dollars worldwide.

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Speaker 1: There's a tradeoff here, and it's a tradeoff over about

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Speaker 1: fifty basis points on PC. If you wait for inflation

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Speaker 1: to get up towards two, financial distortions are going to

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Speaker 1: get even bigger. You're not sensitive to the trade off

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Speaker 1: between what's happening in financial markets and what might happen

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Speaker 1: with PC. Well, this goes back to UH and I

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Speaker 1: wrote a long piece on my website about this. This

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Speaker 1: goes back to using interest rates to try to deal

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Speaker 1: with the stock market bubble and how costly. That is

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Speaker 1: you both know Alan Green's band declared that we had

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Speaker 1: a rational exuberance. If he had used monetary policy to

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Speaker 1: try to stop the stock market from rising, I think

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Speaker 1: that would have been much more costly to the economy

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Speaker 1: into workers than the actual correction that took place in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and the fairly mild recession and that followed.

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Speaker 1: So to me, we have to look out for financial

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Speaker 1: stability risks like two thous the tech bubble, the tech

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Speaker 1: bubble bursting was not a financial stability event. Neil Cosh Curry,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much, greatly appreciated. He is a president

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Speaker 1: of the Filler Reserve Bank of Minneapolis. Greatly appreciate his

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Speaker 1: attendance today. That's pretty good, John Capital and Cash Curry.

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Speaker 1: That's quite a morning. That's quite a morning. Thank you

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Speaker 1: to Michael McKee. This is Bloomberg. This is a joint

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Speaker 1: and honor. He's out of Purdue and Penn State. His

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Speaker 1: name is William Hoblin. And his experience in Washington with

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Speaker 1: Alice Rivlett at CBO a few years ago and was

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Speaker 1: senators first of Tennessee Senator to Manici as well, has

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Speaker 1: been extraordinary and he is deeply experienced in the realities

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Speaker 1: of text legislation. William Hoglan is UH very important voice

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Speaker 1: at the Bipartisan Policy Center in Washington. I'm gonna give

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Speaker 1: you an open question, Bill, because you've got such experience,

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Speaker 1: breadth and depth. Is you look at the different scenarios,

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Speaker 1: the analysis of the last three or four days. What's

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Speaker 1: the thing that sticks out to you in this website,

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Speaker 1: this website and that website. Well, first of all, thank you,

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Speaker 1: You're very kind of your introductions. Tom. What stands out

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Speaker 1: to me, I guess as I look at this is

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Speaker 1: the fact that the American public, in terms of polling

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Speaker 1: on this particular UH piece of legislation, seems to be

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Speaker 1: somewhat negative. That they perceive it as a privately probably

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Speaker 1: mostly a benefit to the upper income and corporate America,

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Speaker 1: no benefit to them. And I see this as juxtaposed

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Speaker 1: up against a president who says, this is a cut

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Speaker 1: for the middle This the reduction in tacts for middle class,

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Speaker 1: it will grow the economy, and the and the benefits

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Speaker 1: are straight. So there seems to be a real disconnect

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Speaker 1: what Congress is doing and what the American public believe

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Speaker 1: this legislation will do. I'm assuming William Hogan is going

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Speaker 1: to tell us there's gray in the middle. Well, where's

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Speaker 1: the gray? Is it towards the president or is it

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Speaker 1: towards our listeners? Well, I think that that's a very

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Speaker 1: good question. I think it's gray. I think there have

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Speaker 1: been I think first of all, when you look at

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Speaker 1: what will what is likely to happen when this is enacted,

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Speaker 1: And as I understand, the Secretary of Minution and the

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Speaker 1: Treasury Department are moving in I R. S is moving

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Speaker 1: to change the withholding tables so that they will have

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Speaker 1: an impact upon twenty withholding. It should be some benefits there.

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Speaker 1: When you look at the legislation, it does have reductions

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Speaker 1: across the board. It seems now some people will benefit,

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Speaker 1: some people won't, but overall there will be a reduction

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Speaker 1: in average tax take out there from the American public.

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Speaker 1: How Ever, the big problem is, as I see it,

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Speaker 1: is that a number of these and particularly the rate

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Speaker 1: cuts and the child credits and things that the middle

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Speaker 1: class America are looking for, go away in and so

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Speaker 1: and yet the corporate tax cuts and the other larger

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Speaker 1: tax cuts for for business continue on. So there is

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Speaker 1: what I'm afraid this legislation is not going to unite

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Speaker 1: UH the American public. I think it will continue to

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Speaker 1: divide us and continue to add to the polarization that

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Speaker 1: seems to be somewhat rather pervasive throughout the country today, Bill,

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Speaker 1: I want to dig into the polarization and maybe draw

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Speaker 1: distinction between perception and reality. On the perception. Is this

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Speaker 1: a communication problem with this administration? Have they sold this

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Speaker 1: plan badly over the last couple of months? Um, listen,

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Speaker 1: I I I believe that we need a tax reform.

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Speaker 1: I believe the President UH and the administration in Republican

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Speaker 1: Democrats believe that we need tax reform. I think what's

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Speaker 1: been done where they missed on this is and I

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Speaker 1: no no surprise coming from the Bipartisan Policy Center where

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Speaker 1: I worked today that I think it would have been

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Speaker 1: a much more acceptable plan had they had. Republicans chose

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Speaker 1: not to go the route of using what we call

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Speaker 1: the budget reconciliation process. It requires them to only have

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Speaker 1: a simple majority in the Senate to passage. Like the

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Speaker 1: tax reform bill was done in a biparson way and

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Speaker 1: it had sustainability in it. I think this particular legislation

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Speaker 1: will have for Republicans. It will be similar to what

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Speaker 1: President Obama had with the Affordable Care Act, where it

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Speaker 1: was not passed with any Republican support, only Democratic support.

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Speaker 1: Now we have a legislation only passing with Republican support.

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Speaker 1: That means, from my perspective, we're going to be debating

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Speaker 1: tax reform all the way through the next midterm and

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Speaker 1: into the presidential election. Bill Hope. Then I want you

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Speaker 1: to take this out to your perdue in the Lafayette

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Speaker 1: zip code for seven nine o nine. Good morning, Pretty Materials.

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Speaker 1: You've got a concrete come pretty out in western northern Illinois,

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Speaker 1: south of Gary where perdue as I get it, okay,

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Speaker 1: Pretty Materials. What does this mean to a normal small business,

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Speaker 1: not some real estate tycoon on Fifth Avenue. What does

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Speaker 1: it mean to a company like Pretty Materials? Well, I

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Speaker 1: do think that the pass through changes that the changes

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Speaker 1: in the past through the S corporation. I think the

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Speaker 1: reductions there. I do think that there is a benefit

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Speaker 1: to some of the smaller businesses and small business out there,

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Speaker 1: the individuals and entrepreneurship. I do think that that is positive.

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Speaker 1: I also think generally that that there that as we

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Speaker 1: get into this and we start to see the implementation

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Speaker 1: of it, and uh, and individuals uh maybe see a

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Speaker 1: little bit more in their take home pay that that

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Speaker 1: will benefit those individuals working for that particular company in

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Speaker 1: northern Indiana and uh and has some been in So

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Speaker 1: I think the issue here is it will be beneficial,

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Speaker 1: it should be beneficial in the show term, and whether

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Speaker 1: it's Bruce to sustain Mike, but that's fine. I still

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Speaker 1: think it's Paul. We'll have to see Bill Hogland. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast. Subscribe and listen

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Speaker 1: to interviews on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or whichever podcast platform

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Speaker 1: you prefer. I'm on Twitter at Tom Keane before the podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can always catch us worldwide. I'm Bloomberg Radio