1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: Fellow ridiculous historians. We are fun at parties, and in 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: a classic episode from twenty nineteen, we got super obsessed 3 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: with just telling random people about ghost ships and the 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: Black Death, ghost ships, plague ships, Dealer's choice. 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 2: We were recently talking on our sister podcast, Stuff They 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,799 Speaker 2: Don't Want You to Know about the hantavirus and the 7 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 2: way it potentially may have been brought on a ship 8 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 2: of sorts, a cruise ship, not a ghost ship. But 9 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 2: this is something that throughout history we often hear about 10 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 2: rats in the galley carrying all kinds of icky diseases 11 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 2: that come from far away lands and then infect the 12 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 2: places where the ships dock. 13 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: In the thirteen hundreds, what we call the Black Death 14 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: today sprang up in Central Asia, and it swept across 15 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: continents and it killed millions millions of people. Have fundamentally 16 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: changed history. And you know, to that earlier point, man, 17 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: I gotta say, history does rhyme a little bit, and 18 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: ghost ships are fascinating. 19 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, history has got bars for sure. Norway, however, might 20 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: have been spared from some of this Black Death were 21 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 2: it not for the aforementioned mysterious ghost ship. Tune in 22 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 2: find out how. 23 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeart Radio. Ridiculous History 24 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, 25 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: fellow Ridiculous Historians. My name is Been. My co host Nol, 26 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: who usually fills in here with me, is on adventures. However, 27 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: never fear, because we have our returning special guest with 28 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: us here today, Christopher Hasiotis. Thanks again for saving the show. 29 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 3: Good afternoon or good evening, good morning. I really have 30 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 3: no idea what time it is. We're here in the studio. 31 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 3: There's a fake sun outside, a fake moon. I think 32 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 3: that maybe actually that's just Casey's face shining and beaming 33 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 3: in a rays of goodness. 34 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: The radiant face of super producer Casey Pegram. Thank you, Casey. 35 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: We need your light for this episode because things are 36 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: about to get very very dark. 37 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, Ben, let me set the stage for you. It's 38 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 3: a gloomy evening. You're in the northern northern reaches of Europe. 39 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 3: The sun doesn't get too high, the clouds get low, 40 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 3: the light even lower. You're sitting by the water by 41 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 3: a fjord, maybe because you're in Norway, and just in 42 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 3: the distance you start to see a shadow coming. It's moving, 43 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 3: it's on the water, it's listing from side to side. 44 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 3: It's a ship. It's a dark ship. It's a big ship. 45 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 3: But there's something different about the ship. The sails are 46 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 3: slightly tattered. There doesn't seem to be much life on board. Ben, 47 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 3: what you're looking at it's a ship of death. And 48 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 3: that's what I'm gonna tell you for right now. I 49 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 3: just creeped myself out a little bit. 50 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 2: Wow, that was great. 51 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 3: There's a ship of death coming towards you. Uh, Let's 52 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 3: let's rewind a little bit and get a little context. 53 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's let's rewind. So I was spellbound, man, Casey, 54 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: did you like that? I was wrapped with attention over here? Yeah, 55 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: Casey on the case. 56 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 3: That was great. 57 00:03:55,640 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: Uh So, yes, let's let's step back just a tad here. 58 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 3: Why why are we talking about Norway now? And when 59 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 3: are we talking about? Right? Why? And when? 60 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: Two very important questions were the show whom? 61 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 3: Wherefore? 62 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 2: So? 63 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 3: Whence? Whether I'm going to toss them all to you? 64 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: Well, don't forget whither. I feel like whither needs to 65 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: get whither the point of this story. Yes, yes, to 66 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: the very same Christophers. So we are traveling back to 67 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: the fourteenth century to the thirteen hundreds. If you are, 68 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: you know, on some level aware of European history at 69 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: the time, then you will have heard of the catastrophic 70 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: fatal affliction known today as the Black Death. From the 71 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: years thirteen forty six to thirteen fifty three. This spread 72 00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 1: across the European continent. The name only came several centuries later. 73 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: We called it the Black Death or the Black Plague 74 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: as a retronym. But Genoese merchant ships brought this plague 75 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: to Sicily in the early thirteen forties, and no one 76 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: was quite prepared for the magnitude of damage that this 77 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: and havoc that this thing would wreak. 78 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the the bubonic plague as it's more 79 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 3: technically known, because you know, one of the symptoms are 80 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 3: these bubos or growths that infected people get, and it's 81 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 3: just got such a magnificently high mortality rate. And when 82 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 3: a human contracts a disease, you have a couple of 83 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 3: days for it to show up, a couple of days 84 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,799 Speaker 3: of symptoms, and then you die. It's it's a miserable, 85 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 3: miserable way to go. The plague and the time we're 86 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 3: talking about it. In the middle of the fourteenth century 87 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 3: was generally regarded as the first Black Death and Black plague. 88 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 3: Right Europe, the Middle East, Northern Africa, parts of Western 89 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 3: Asia all kind of experienced different waves. And then there 90 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 3: was a bigger return of the plague in kind of 91 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 3: the seventeen hundreds. But yeah, it wiped out massive portions 92 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 3: of the population. Estimates are really hard to come by, 93 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 3: and sometimes, you know, things are inflated. Population counts aren't 94 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 3: as accurate. But if you said a third of the 95 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 3: population of Europe died over the span of time, that's 96 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 3: pretty pretty right on, right right. Yeah. 97 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:44,119 Speaker 1: Nowadays we can reasonably guess that this was caused by 98 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: a bacterium called Urcinia pesties. This resulted in several different 99 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: forms of plague, and our best guess for the origin 100 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: point of this affliction is somewhere in Central Asia, the 101 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: dry places of Central Asia, traveling along the Silk Road, 102 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: reaching Crimea in the as you said, the mid fourteenth century. 103 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: Most likely it was it was carried by not rats, 104 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: but the fleas living on the rats, technically black rats 105 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: that traveled on these merchant ships, which was one of 106 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: the most efficacious If you wanted to spread a disease 107 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: internationally at this time, spreading it via a merchant ship 108 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: is brilliant. You could not have planned it better if 109 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: you were trying to, you know. 110 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 3: So there's this concept of rats being plague bearers and 111 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 3: carrying this pestilence. But I believe and our good friends 112 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 3: at house stuffworks dot com may have dug into this 113 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 3: in the past, that there's something is ringing a bell 114 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 3: in my deep in my memory that there's been some 115 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 3: research done that it was actually not rats that originated 116 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 3: the black plague kind of rodent zero, if you will, 117 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 3: but it was more something like a squirrel or a 118 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 3: chipmunk or something much cuter but still more sinister. 119 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, you know what, I could see that because 120 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: the flea would probably not discriminate and a lot of historically, 121 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: a lot of human leisure time has been spent vilifying rats. 122 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, what I will do is I will dig 123 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 3: into the archives at houstuffworks dot com, and when I 124 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 3: figure that out, I will share that on Ridiculous Historians, 125 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 3: the Facebook group for this podcast that you're listening to 126 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 3: right now. If you guys are not on Facebook, let 127 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 3: me just switch from Death and disease mode to promotional 128 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 3: and social media mode. Point your machines over towards Facebook 129 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 3: and look at ridiculous historians. You can chat with Ben, 130 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 3: you can chat with Noel. Casey's there sometimes I'm around. Yeah, 131 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 3: I was sharing info about stories. But I will post 132 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 3: a link to that story over there on the site. 133 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Christopher, trying to find some light 134 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 3: in this, this grim grim tail. 135 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: This is a very grim grim tail. And we know 136 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:14,319 Speaker 1: that the disease itself appears to be ancient. We have 137 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: some fairly compelling arguments that it hit parts of the 138 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: world in the human population way before the thirteen hundreds. 139 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: In How Stuff Works by our own In an article 140 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 1: by our own Tracy Wilson, good friend of ours, good 141 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: friend of the show, one of the hosts of stuff 142 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: you missed in history class. In her work on How 143 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:38,839 Speaker 1: Stuff Works, she notes that Justinian's plague from five p 144 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: forty two to five forty six AD was thought. 145 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 3: To be. 146 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: One of the pandemics caused by you know, the bubonic 147 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: plague or the black plague. As you said, Christopher, this thing, 148 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: when it strikes strikes hard, it strikes fast. It doesn't 149 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: tick all the boxes for a perfect disease, because a 150 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: perfect disease would hopefully have a longer gestation rate such 151 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: that it allows for more infections. And this thing was 152 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: knocking people down left and right. So we mentioned Norway. Right, 153 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: when we mentioned Norway, we need to talk a little 154 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: bit about the cycle of infection for this disease. So 155 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: plague was spread considerable distances by these rats on these ships. 156 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: And the first thing you would think is, well, how 157 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: long does a rat live in the wild? How long 158 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: does a rat live running for its life in a 159 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: ship right where it's probably going to be maybe tolerated, 160 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 1: but killed if the opportunity. 161 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 3: Pretty so swept overboard, tossing a bag eaten, Yeah, eaten, 162 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 3: worse comes to worse. 163 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,959 Speaker 1: So these rats would and did die at a. 164 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 3: Pretty high rate, right, I mean they had plague, they 165 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 3: had had the plague. 166 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: That's a really good point. But their fleas would survive 167 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: and they would find new rat hosts wherever they landed, 168 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: because docs were dirty, filthy places that were home to 169 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 1: lots like rats and insects and other. 170 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 3: Acum of things for all of those things to eat. 171 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, exactly, And. 172 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 3: Those rats would die. But then the fleas who lived 173 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 3: on them didn't necessarily die and they needed a new 174 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 3: place to live. And when you're on a ship, if 175 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 3: you don't have the rats to live on, who are 176 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 3: you going to jump to? People? Whatever? 177 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: The next warm mammal is yeah. 178 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 3: You and me and old Swaby over there on your 179 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 3: pony from their previous episode. My pony's name is not Swaby. 180 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 3: My pony does not swap that day, although you know what, 181 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 3: actually maybe she does. I think if we could train 182 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 3: a pony to tie them up to her tail and 183 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 3: swab decks and avoid the plague. Okay, I'm down with that. 184 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 3: All right, let's let's uh, let's listeners. I don't know 185 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 3: what we're talking about. And if this is your first 186 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 3: episode of Ridiculous History, go check out last our most 187 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 3: previous episode, where we talked about something a little more 188 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 3: lighthearted than boils and pustules and death, where we talked 189 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 3: about ponies and princesses. It was a little more fun, yes, 190 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 3: a lot more fun. I know. 191 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: It's always fun being here with you, Ben and Casey, 192 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: thanks man. And Noel of course is here in spirit. 193 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 3: He doesn't have to deal with boils and pustules and 194 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 3: black death and rats and fleas and scratching and itching 195 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 3: and bleeding and ghost ships. 196 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: I don't know that. 197 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 3: I don't know. 198 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: I don't know what he's doing. 199 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,839 Speaker 3: That's true, Yeah, he might be. Nole's idea of a 200 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 3: vacation is very different than mine I have found over 201 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 3: the years. 202 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: That's quite true. 203 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 4: So, speaking of what we could call Nole's idea of 204 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 4: a vacation, the bubonic blague, at least at the time 205 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 4: of this particular wave of plague, this particular pandemic, people 206 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 4: didn't have, for instance, theory, the idea of washing one's hands, 207 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 4: the idea that infections could be carried by a life 208 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 4: form as small as to be invisible to the naked eye. 209 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 3: It was. 210 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: It was an alien concept, you know, And a lot 211 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: of what we would consider medical treatment at this time 212 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: was fundamentally intertwined with religious belief. 213 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 3: That's true. But while the specifics of transmission of bubonic 214 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 3: plague weren't known to people at the time, there was 215 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 3: knowledge that people would transmit it from person to person, 216 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,959 Speaker 3: perhaps from animal to person, not knowing how, but knowing 217 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 3: that it did happen, And so word of plague spread 218 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 3: before plague it self spread necessarily, and so a lot 219 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 3: of these communities, especially the merchant marine communities, the ones 220 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 3: on the on the coast, put in place safeguard so 221 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 3: they knew that an infected person could spread plague to 222 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 3: another infected person. So if we're back in Norway, you know, 223 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 3: they essentially established offshore quarantines where if a ship is 224 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 3: coming into trade goods, you couldn't just bring the ship 225 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 3: into harbor and have no control over who or what 226 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 3: gets off board. You would have to stay a little 227 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 3: bit off offshore and only uninfected sailors or crewmen could 228 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 3: then come into town. And this was a way of 229 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 3: these cities, which are in pretty remote places, remaining plague 230 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 3: free and trying to protect themselves and putting in place 231 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 3: as much as they could preventative measures to keep their 232 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 3: population safe. And it totally worked. When a ship that 233 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 3: had let's say half the crew had plague, they wouldn't 234 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 3: come into the shore. They would stop and the ones 235 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 3: without plague would come in and do the trading. Everything 236 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 3: was working fine, ideally, ideally right, And that worked fine 237 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 3: when a few of the crew members had plague. It 238 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 3: worked fine when some of the crew members had plague, 239 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 3: or even many of the crew members had plague. It 240 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 3: did not work so well when everybody died. 241 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: Right, right, And this is where our story takes the 242 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: turn to Norway. In thirteen forty nine, an English merchant 243 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: ship carrying wool set out northward. They were bound for 244 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: the north and along the way they realized they had 245 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: lost the lottery of disease and crew members were getting 246 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: the plague. They didn't all die once, but they were 247 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: dying one by one and not being dummies themselves. The 248 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: people who were surviving or who had not yet contracted 249 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: the plague, attempted to quarantine the sick. These people have 250 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: the plague. Again, they don't know that it's carried by 251 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: these parasites, on these smaller creatures, or on these parasites, 252 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: these fleas that are probably on all of them to 253 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: some degree. So they try to quarantine the people who 254 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: are ill, and it doesn't work. They're a buck short 255 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: and a day late. 256 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 3: I mean, that's the thing. When everyone on the ship dies, 257 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 3: you have no control over what happens to the ship. 258 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 3: And so, you know, let's go back to the way 259 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 3: we started this show. We have this looming, hulking, empty vessel, 260 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 3: somewhat devoid of human life, but teaming with rats. The 261 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 3: rats still have fleas on them, they're still plague on them. 262 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 3: And so we're near the town of Bergen in Norway. 263 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 3: Normally this would have been, you know, not a great situation, 264 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 3: but they would have dealt with it. But no, this 265 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 3: ship had a completely dead crew and just it ran aground, 266 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 3: it crashed. 267 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: Which is such an unfortunate lottery to win because it 268 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: could have also plausibly just drifted off into the sea 269 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: and then sink in rough water. 270 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 3: The very last living person aboard could have could have 271 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 3: thrown down. 272 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: An anchor or scuttled it, yeah, you know what I mean. 273 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 3: But didn't. And that's the thing. It's it's literally a 274 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 3: ship of death, and that, you know, there's not too 275 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 3: much ridiculous about this history today, but that, to me 276 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 3: is is what touches on the verge of the absurd, 277 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 3: and that it's it's so scary, so cinematic and terrifying 278 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 3: to have a literal ship of death going to the 279 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 3: frosty North where it also seems like sort of a 280 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 3: death metal kind of way to go. Yeah, you know, 281 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 3: and that music is super popular up in those parts, 282 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 3: but to have this, yeah, just a ship of death 283 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 3: crashing into your town despite all your preventive measures and 284 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 3: everything you've tried to do to save your town from plague. 285 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 3: Ship of death going to get you. 286 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: The ship of Death's gonna get you. To the tune 287 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: of the rhythm is gonna get you. I think our 288 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: syllables are slightly off, but the gist is there, and 289 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: this is a terrifying moment. I think that's why Casey 290 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: and I both felt so enthralled when you were when 291 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: you were painting that image for us at the beginning, 292 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: because this, like most of the scariest of stories, is 293 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: a true story. And when we say that it ran 294 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: around in Bergen Harbor, we don't mean that it just 295 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: infected the people of Bergen Harbor. Contemporary accounts, although exaggerated, 296 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: seem to indicate that around a third of the population 297 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 1: of or Away died. And the thing with you know, 298 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 1: I think you made a tremendous point about how much 299 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: margin of error we have with any kind of population 300 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: estimate or death toll estimate for things that occurred at 301 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: this point in time in history. Despite that, you have 302 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,479 Speaker 1: to admit that even if it was just twenty percent, 303 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: it's still one out of every five people dying. It's 304 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: a lot of people, So it's more than one out 305 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: out of every five, possibly around one out of every 306 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: three people died because this one ship washed up in 307 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: this one place. And it didn't stop there, did it 308 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: because it expanded beyond Norway. 309 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it just all over. And what this really reminds 310 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 3: me of is you know, in any zombie film or 311 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 3: TV show where the people have taken all the safeguards 312 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 3: they can, They've holed up inside of a safe house, right, 313 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 3: and then someone makes a fatal mistake, one bite comes 314 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 3: through and then that's it. Then things crumble from there. 315 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 3: So all the Walking Dead and all those series and 316 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 3: show there may be something to it. That's how that's 317 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 3: how society crumbles, perhaps. 318 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: Perhaps not with a bang, but with a whimper. And 319 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: here's another thing. This plague, this catastrophe affected Norway in 320 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: more ways than one. It did not just kill one 321 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: fifth to one third of the population. It made a 322 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: fundamental impact on their culture and folklore which remains in 323 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: the modern day. 324 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is not a story just about corpses and 325 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 3: people dying. I mean the experience of the Black Death 326 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 3: and the Black Plague really manifests itself, not just with 327 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 3: a death count, but in the culture. In the story 328 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 3: of Pesta, the witch Pesta, as listeners may guess for 329 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 3: themselves rightly, is related to the terms of pestas and 330 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 3: pst pstules. 331 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 1: And not pesto. 332 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 3: Uh that's everything that I just thought because of what 333 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 3: you just said is disgusting to me and disgusting to everyone, 334 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 3: but I had to do it. Yeah, No, so Pesta right, 335 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 3: So Pesta is in Norwegian folklore, this witch a harbinger 336 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 3: of doom and death. She's the embodiment of the plague, 337 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 3: but she's not an embodiment of complete annihilation, right, because 338 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 3: the plague didn't kill everyone. So what do we know 339 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 3: about the story of Pasta and who she is and 340 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 3: what happens if you encounter her on a dark and 341 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 3: gloomy Norwegian road? 342 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 1: Oh yes, check this out, Christopher. I love the way 343 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 1: you're differentiating to between pestilence and straight death. Right, they're 344 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: two very different but related things. 345 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, in this case, they're usually you know that then 346 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 3: diagram is almost just a circle. But yes, yeah, yeah, 347 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 3: but it's not always that way. 348 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 1: It's not always that way, but it's a tremendously unfortunate 349 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: occurrence to encounter Pesta. You see, Pesta travels from one 350 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: village to the next. She has a broomstick, but she's 351 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: also doubled down. She possesses a rake. If you happen 352 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: upon the witch Pesta with her rake, then you know 353 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: she will spare some of the people in your community. 354 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: But if she begins sweeping with her broomstick, there's no 355 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: point in running. 356 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 3: You're dead and so is everyone around you. Yeah, that's 357 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 3: the thing. So Pesta the embodiment not just of death, 358 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 3: but the embodiment of this specific type of death link 359 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 3: to this illness. If she rakes through your community, those 360 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 3: claws will tear up your loved ones, your neighbors. But 361 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 3: there are gaps between the teeth of a rake, and 362 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 3: some people will make it their way through. But if 363 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 3: she's sweeping with a broom you're all done for. And 364 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 3: it's just a it's a really creepy, kind of terrifying 365 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 3: embodiment of this experience to think that it's not just 366 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 3: not just something that happens, but that there's some will 367 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 3: behind it, that there's this terrifying woman in a deep 368 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 3: red skirt who will just clean the earth as she 369 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 3: sees fit, and you and your friends and neighbors have 370 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 3: little to do with with the way things turn out. 371 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: And there's a fatalism there as well. You know, because 372 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: your odds of survival are already very, very low, the 373 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: best you can hope is that some survive. I do 374 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: want to point out one myth busting thing here, let's 375 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: do it that may be of interest to many of 376 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 1: us listening. You know those really cool masks that they 377 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: always show the doctors wearing. 378 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, they show up in like in you know, Brazilian 379 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 3: Carnival and in New Orleans and then also in the 380 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 3: sci fi remake of that Monkeys series. 381 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: Ah yeah, yeah, those pestilence masks. The the way that 382 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 1: they're depicted is this the concept being before they were 383 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: totally taken over by goth kids in this country, the 384 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: concept was that the people wearing them were protecting themselves 385 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: from exposure to diseased bodies, and that that long bird 386 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 1: bill snout looking thing is actually a container for herbs, 387 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: and that the herbs would be ignited sometimes and that 388 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 1: they would gently burn. 389 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 3: And the mask you're talking about is to get that 390 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 3: sort of conical, long proboscis. That's sort of like creepy 391 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 3: bird ibis Egyptian god. 392 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: Kind of vibe going on right, right right, sort of 393 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: abstract attempt at rendering an anti. 394 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 3: So there's a there's a myth about that is that 395 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 3: is that not a thing? 396 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: There's no concrete evidence that people in the fourteenth century 397 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: were wearing these, and medical historians were wearing these at 398 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: the time, and medical historians will say that they were 399 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: not invented until three hundred years later, when a sixteenth 400 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: century French doctor named Charles de l'Orme designed what could 401 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: be described as one of the world's earliest hazmat suits. 402 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: So it did occur in response to the plague, but 403 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: in a later wave of the plague. Okay, that's the 404 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: other myth that I think we busted pretty effectively. 405 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 3: Not just one black day. 406 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: It was no. No, things just kept being terrible, great, great. 407 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 1: We don't have to end it that way. 408 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 3: No, let's talk about some good news. 409 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. 410 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,120 Speaker 3: I don't know how much good news this is. But Ben, 411 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 3: let me ask you, you seem like the kind of 412 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 3: person who likes all of these things. Do you like 413 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 3: some suit models. 414 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: I like in general in general? 415 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 3: Yeah? 416 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: Sure, you know, I'm not opposed to swim suits or 417 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: people modeling. 418 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 3: Okay, do you how do you feel about European men 419 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 3: in flashy cravats. 420 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: I'm in yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not opposed to either. 421 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 3: Okay, what about zombified knights, Templar. 422 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: I mean, if I have to choose between the three, 423 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: I'm going with number three. 424 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 3: What if I told you Ben ben Bollen that you could, 425 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 3: in one film have all three of those, I. 426 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: Would say thank you for saving my weekend. Christopher hasiotis 427 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: all right. 428 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 3: Nineteen seventy four's film The Ghost Galleon is a film 429 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 3: that I want to put on your radar. Then it's 430 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 3: a Spanish movie. It's not great. I don't know that 431 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 3: it's even good, but it's really enjoyable. In Spanish it's 432 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 3: called El Bouque maldito, which means like the you know, 433 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 3: the damned vessel or the ship of the damned. Yeah, 434 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 3: but in English it's The Ghost Galleon. It's really campy, 435 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,640 Speaker 3: but it's got a lot of zombie knights. Templar. Who 436 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 3: there are these there are these two swimsuit models who 437 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 3: to see a ghost ship off the coast and decide 438 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 3: to Hey, let's go see what's on that ghost ship. 439 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 3: The answer is zombies. So yeah, zombie zombiefide Knights Templar 440 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 3: who have come back from I guess crusading. And then 441 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 3: there's like some real like flashy dudes wearing ascots and 442 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 3: trying to punch skeletons. This is another thing I will 443 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 3: share with the Facebook community group. I will put the 444 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 3: trailer for the Ghosts Gallon up for your enjoyment, and 445 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 3: you can decide for yourself if you want to dig 446 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 3: into the film as a whole. I love it. I 447 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 3: also really love low budget, questionably acted horror from the seventies. 448 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, as you should. Christopher. Thank you for this recommendation. 449 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: Beat me to the punch. We have to put the 450 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: trailer up. I'm actually I'm gonna watch this after after 451 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 1: we finished recording today. I did, I did. While you 452 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: were talking about this, I did remember one piece of 453 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: good news that baffled me. I kid you not. This 454 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: is actual good news. From the series of pandemics known 455 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 1: collectively as the Black Plague or the Bubonic Plague, there 456 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: is a book, which I may have mentioned in previous episodes, 457 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: by a fellow named Norman Cantor the name of this 458 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 1: book is in the Wake of the Plague. When I 459 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: first read this book, there's something that Cantor tosses aside 460 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: in a fairly cavalier fashion, and it is that there 461 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: is compelling evidence that the evolutionary pressure of the Black 462 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: Plague led to the HIV resistant genes that exist in 463 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: parts of Europe today. Because you remember, we've seen those 464 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: stories in years past about bone marrow transplant recipients who 465 00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: also find that their HIV had their viral load has 466 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: gone down and then it has disappeared. It appears that 467 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: there is compelling evidence, While not one hundred percent, there's 468 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: compelling evidence that the same infection disease that killed so 469 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: many people in Europe, Eurasia and beyond may have made 470 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: us more resistant to HIV and ultimately aids. 471 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 3: No, that's fascinating, and yeah, there are myriad ways you 472 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 3: can look at a terrible, terrible instance in history like 473 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 3: the Black Death and glom some sort of positive from it. 474 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,959 Speaker 3: I mean that that is a wonderful thing and not 475 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 3: the sort of thing you would ever expect, but it's 476 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 3: the way history unfolds. I mean, there are a number 477 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 3: of other things attributed to the Black Death and kind 478 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 3: of what society had to do afterwards. There's an idea 479 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 3: that a lot of the smaller universities around Europe really 480 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 3: developed because people didn't want to travel when they went 481 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 3: to school, because the more the more you travel, the 482 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 3: more you risk coming across people who had plague. So 483 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 3: more schools, more communities had to develop their own local 484 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 3: universities and colleges, and so that led to some education. 485 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 3: It is also credited with perhaps popularizing English across the continent. 486 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 3: The idea was that so many learned monks and scholars 487 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 3: passed away because of Black Death, that more people who 488 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 3: spoke the vulgar tongues you're German, your English, they had 489 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 3: to assume those positions of power in universities, in higher learning, 490 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 3: and so English became more widespread. It's the same idea 491 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 3: why the printing press had to be invented because so 492 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 3: many monks died, they didn't have enough people to hand 493 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 3: copy bibles, so they needed to find a way to 494 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 3: kind of adapt to a situation where you've lost a 495 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 3: significant portion of your population. You know, whether you can 496 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 3: say it's a one to one causal relationship is a 497 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 3: little tricky, but these are some theories that are out there, 498 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 3: and I think they're pretty interesting. 499 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: That's fascinating, and it feels like we are on the 500 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: verge of a completely new conversation the upsides of terrible 501 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: events throughout world's history. That may be an episode for 502 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: another day, but for now, why don't we throw it 503 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: to you, fellow ridiculous historians? What are some of the unintended? 504 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: How do we put a silver linings of terrible events 505 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: throughout human history? I think we illustrated just a couple 506 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: with the Black Plague to keep what may indeed be 507 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: our most death metal of episodes from being completely grimy 508 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: and grim. But let us know. You can visit us 509 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: on Facebook, as you said, Christopher, at our community page 510 00:31:55,120 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians, you can see Casey Nol, Christopher hasiotis self 511 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: and yours truly dropping in to field questions to check 512 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: out and share some of the amazing stories throughout our 513 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,719 Speaker 1: species collective adventures. Let's see what else in the meantime. 514 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 3: In the meantime, I have a question for any listeners 515 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 3: here who happened to be around about northern Wales, maybe 516 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 3: over near Liverpool. I read about a ship of Death 517 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 3: that they've got going on right there. It just launched. 518 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 3: Apparently for the past thirty years there's been a ship 519 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 3: called the Duke of Lancaster which was kind of run 520 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 3: aground and abandoned near I think the town is called 521 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 3: whole Well or holy Well in Wales, Northern Wales, and 522 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 3: there's this company who kind of I think is comparable 523 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 3: to like escape rooms here in the US, and they 524 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 3: kind of put on those haunted houses. But they've turned 525 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 3: this ship into a ship of death and you can 526 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 3: kind of go on there and experience a zombie attack 527 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 3: on the ship. What Yeah, I just read up. I 528 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 3: read it. I remember reading about this at the end 529 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 3: of twenty eighteen, and apparently this is a thing that 530 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 3: has opened in this year twenty nineteen. Zombie infection, as 531 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 3: I believe the company. Not that we're giving props or 532 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 3: speaking to their merit, but if anyone's listening, who is 533 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 3: in kind of like around the corner from Liverpool, and 534 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 3: you've been on this ship of death or you want 535 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 3: to go on the Ship of Death and report back, 536 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 3: I'd like to hear about. 537 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: It, me too, Sign me up. I want to hear 538 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: if it lives up to the hype. You can tell 539 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: us about that on the aforementioned Ridiculous Historians Facebook page. 540 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter. You can find us 541 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: on Instagram. You can find my pal Nol on Instagram. 542 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: He's at Embryonic Insider. You can find me on Instagram 543 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: as well. Follow my adventures as I get kicked into 544 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: and out of various countries at Ben Bolan. In the meantime, 545 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: we hope that you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so 546 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: much as always to super producer at Casey Pegram. I 547 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: know we can't see it because it's an audio podcast 548 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: in Casey. I know you can't see me do this 549 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: because there's a barrier between us. But every time I 550 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: say your name, I like to throw my right arm 551 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: wide in a grand gesture towards you, sir. We'd also 552 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: like to thank Alex Williams who composed our track. As always, 553 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,439 Speaker 1: thanks to Noel Brown, and thanks to you Christopher Ahasiotis. 554 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: You know, I know, after we did our Grifter episode 555 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: you have me questioning everything, so I'm still gonna stick 556 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,879 Speaker 1: with the alias you provided when we met all those 557 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:33,399 Speaker 1: years ago. 558 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 3: Remain questioning. It's good to be a skeptic. Thanks for 559 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 3: having me. It's been really really nice talking about the 560 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 3: end of so many people's lives. 561 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: We'll see you again soon. 562 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 563 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 564 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my heart radio at the iHeartRadio app, 565 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.