1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, A rugged terrain search goes 2 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: on for baby Emmanuel, just seven months old, and tonight 3 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: the chilling question emerges. Did the baby disappear nine days 4 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: before the alleged kidnap when mommy was attacked in the 5 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: parking lot at a sporting goods store? Was the baby 6 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: really missing nine days before that? I'm Nancy Grace, this 7 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being 8 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: with us. Where is baby Emmanuel? Just seven months old? 9 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: Where is this baby? 10 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 2: They first got the call from someone of the Big 11 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 2: Five saying, my baby has been taken and she is 12 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 2: frantic and upset. She got out of their pickup trot 13 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 2: when someone attacked her. 14 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: Where is seven month old baby? Image? You will questions 15 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: swirling straight out, First of all to Joy Benedict joining 16 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: us the search going on. Investigative reporter CBSLA Joy tell 17 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: me about the search as is taking place. 18 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: This has been a search that has been going on 19 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 2: now since this little boy was reported missing. They have 20 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 2: searched the home, they have searched nearby fields. They have 21 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 2: searched along the highways. 22 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 3: They have used. 23 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 2: Dogs of varying degrees searching for different things. Life, death, 24 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 2: that you name it. They have searched two counties and 25 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 2: they have still not found this little boy. 26 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: Joy Benedict, what counties are they searching? Guys? You are 27 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: seeing not only Lee law enforcement fanning out stopping traffic 28 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: parts all along the side of this rugged terrain, along 29 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: the side of a mountain. There you see the dad 30 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: of baby Emmanuel. You mentioned two counties are being searched tonight. 31 00:01:58,200 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: What are they? Joy? 32 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: They are San Bernardino County, where little Emmanuel was first 33 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 2: reported missing on August fourteenth, and then Riverside County, which 34 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 2: is the county in. 35 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 1: Which the Horroes live. 36 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 2: That video is from Riverside County and not too far 37 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 2: from their palme of the sixty Freeway. 38 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of 39 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: what we know right now. Just so you know, Joy 40 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: Benedict has been on the case since the baby first 41 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: went missing, reportedly by mom. Let's see a shot of 42 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: mom with a black eye please. Mom says she was 43 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: at the Big five sporting goods store getting a mouthguard 44 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: for her other son. She got out of the vehicle 45 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:44,559 Speaker 1: to change baby Emmanuel's diepee and she was attacked from behind. 46 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: I will let someone on the panel explain how she 47 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: got a black eye from the front, but that is possible. 48 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 1: That's possible. She says she was attacked from behind. When 49 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: she woke up from the attack, I'd like to find 50 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: out about any head wounds that would have knocked her unconscious. 51 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: But when she woke up from the attack, the baby 52 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: is gone. No money is taken. There's no sex attack, 53 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: no carjack, just the baby. There are no cameras in 54 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: the Big five parking lot, no surveillance. This video is 55 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: from our friends at KKEL. No witnesses saw this. That 56 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: doesn't mean it didn't happen. But back to the search 57 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: is happening right now. Steve Fisher is joining us Missing 58 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: Persons private investigator, search and rescue specialist, owner of Search Investigations. 59 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: You've been on the scene for the last week. What 60 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: do you know? 61 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 4: So? 62 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 5: Search has been headed up by San Bernardino's Search and 63 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 5: Rescue team and they've primarily been focused off the sixty Freeway, 64 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 5: which is where we saw the video of Jake. With them, 65 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 5: they've had a cadaverdog out there along with search teams 66 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 5: that are ground searching and detectives that are searching. 67 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 4: And this is an area that it's rolling hills. 68 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 5: Uh, you know, brush that's two or three feet high 69 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 5: with trees. 70 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 4: It's it's a vast area. 71 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 5: It's a lot of area to cover, but it's also 72 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 5: an area that's fairly easy to search by air. 73 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: Steve, tell me about the terrain and how the search 74 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 1: for baby Immanual is being conducted. 75 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 5: Ground searchers and cadaver dogs and air support and this 76 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 5: these are this is rolling hills with three foot brushes, 77 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 5: but the ground itself is rock hard. So this is 78 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 5: an area that you know, they're I don't think they're 79 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 5: they're using ground penetrating radar or anything like that. This 80 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 5: is going to be a you know, a ground search operation, 81 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 5: and it's not an extremely from a search and rescue 82 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 5: point of view, it's not an extremely difficult search area. 83 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: Now I'm looking at the side of a mountain, and 84 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: I would find that difficult to search. Guys, you're seeing 85 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: video from our friends over at KKW right now, and 86 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: you're hearing Steve Fisher, who is an expert in search investigations. 87 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: I saw where they were doing what was almost a 88 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: shoulder to shoulder search. Why are shoulder to shoulder searches 89 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: conducted well? 90 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 4: So that's increases the probability of. 91 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 5: Detection, and that so that means they could be looking 92 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 5: for smaller pieces of evidentiary value, not just a manual, 93 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 5: but it could be other things tied that you know, 94 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:36,679 Speaker 5: could be even cell phones or whatever. Also, those line searches, 95 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 5: which are the very tight formed ones, they were very 96 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 5: close into the freeway and so they didn't extend that 97 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 5: out very far. They were using other search and rescue 98 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 5: ground searchers that were doing more of what we call 99 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 5: a hasty search, and they were going further up into 100 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 5: the hill. 101 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 4: But the detective. 102 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 5: Is very close, kind of in that ravine that we're 103 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 5: seeing on the screen. 104 00:05:58,240 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: I want to follow up on a few things that 105 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: Steve Fisher just told us. At this hour, the search 106 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:10,679 Speaker 1: for baby Emmanuel goes on. Baby Emmanuel, just seven months old, 107 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: reportedly goes missing out of a Big five Sporting Goods 108 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: parking lot there with his mother. So I find it 109 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 1: very curious that he was quote kidnapped by an unknown 110 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: male that said one word ollah. Mommy didn't get a 111 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: look at him, Mommy didn't see him here, hear a threat, 112 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: smell cigarettes, smell alcohol, smell pot nothing, She heard one 113 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: word olla. And she wakes up in the baby's debt 114 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: and now Ellie is searching rugged terrain in the Moreno Valley. 115 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: Now curious, Dave Mac joining me, Crime Stories investigative reporter, Dave. 116 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: Did you hear Steve Fisher state some of the search 117 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: was going along close to the free What does that 118 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: tell me? That tells me that they're looking to see 119 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: if anything was thrown out of a vehicle. We've even 120 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: had you and I, Dave Mac, bodies found beside the freeway. Okay, 121 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: you called Nicole Level, the little thirteen year old girl 122 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: that was kidnapped, abducted by David as Eisenhower, a valedictorian 123 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: track star and his friend Natalie Keepers. Her body was 124 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: found wipe down with alcohol wipes on the side of 125 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: the interstate. So that tells me they're also looking for 126 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: something that could have been thrown out of a car 127 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: on the side of the interstate, or even God help us, 128 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: a baby's body on the side of the interstate. That's 129 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: what that tells me. That they're searching near the roadway there. 130 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 3: And Nancy, you can see along the sixty freeway where 131 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 3: all of the vehicles, all the squad cars, the sheriff's 132 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 3: appe's all of them parked along this area and they're 133 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 3: walking down this The terrain is incredibly rugged. It's very 134 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 3: speek right off the roadway. And if they were to 135 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 3: have God love them. I can't imagine what's going through 136 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 3: their heads as they search. But if a body, a 137 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 3: baby's body, had been tossed, just discarded off the side, Nancy, 138 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 3: it would not just land in the spot, it would 139 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 3: roll and could be underbrush where it couldn't be seen easily. 140 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 3: That's why they're having to walk so close shoulder to 141 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,839 Speaker 3: shoulders as they search certain areas of this terrain is just. 142 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 4: Horrible, you know. 143 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: To let me get right back to the search, everybody. 144 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: This video for a forensic KKWEN. Some of the drone 145 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 1: video was taken by our guest Steve Fisher. Karen Stark 146 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 1: is with me, a long time colleague and friend, forensic psychologist, 147 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: well known TV radio trauma expert, consultant at Karenstark dot com. 148 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: That's Karen with a C. If we're trying to find her, 149 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: Karen Stark. Dave Mac just brought up a conjured up 150 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: a horrible image. I was about to launch into the 151 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: importance of shoulder to shoulder searches. You and I covered one. 152 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:17,599 Speaker 1: The first one you and I covered. I don't know 153 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: if you remember, this was Schandra Levy. Schandra Levy went 154 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: missing the Washington intern and ultimately there were shoulder to 155 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: shoulder searches of Rock Creek Park there in d C. 156 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: Nothing was found, but on later searches her leggings were found. 157 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: So shoulder to shoulder searches or when you're looking for 158 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: as Steve Fisher pointed out, you could be looking for leggings. 159 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: You could be looking for a baby's shoe. You could 160 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,719 Speaker 1: be looking for a hair brett of a missing child. 161 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,479 Speaker 1: You could be looking for anything that when everyone is dispersed, 162 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: may miss, but shoulder to shoulder. It's excruciating, it's laborious, 163 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: it's time intensive, but that's what they're doing to find 164 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: any clue, even just a sheet or suck belonging to 165 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: baby Emmanuel. But for your purposes. Can you imagine these 166 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: LA law enforcement and volunteers being told ahead of time, 167 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: brace yourself in case you find a dead infant. I mean, 168 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: when I was trying case Is Karen, I would have 169 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: nightmares of finding dead bodies because I would be talking 170 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: to witnesses all day longed and found dead bodies. I'd 171 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: actually dream about it, but this is happening for real. 172 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: These LA and volunteers are looking at the prospect of 173 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: nearly stepping on a dead. 174 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 6: Infant, and we can think of anything worse than that, Right, Nancy, 175 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 6: I'm sure everybody listening would agree. What is more horrific 176 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 6: than seeing the baby dead under natural circumstances, let alone 177 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 6: encountering one. 178 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:06,599 Speaker 7: Under these circumstances. 179 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 6: And yet it's incredibly important and they know that to 180 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 6: find these babies, and that's why they volunteer. But there 181 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 6: is nothing worse, and they do live with trauma very often, 182 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 6: just as you said you do when you can think 183 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 6: of the bodies they are dealing, in this instance with 184 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 6: a tiny little baby. Even hearing about what he did 185 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 6: to his original baby promise who was Trump, He just 186 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 6: she can't see, she can't walk. 187 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: And when I read. 188 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,839 Speaker 6: About that, I got so upset thinking about a ten 189 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 6: week old baby being abuse like that, and this is 190 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 6: a baby that is likely dead. 191 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: This is something I don't understand. Let me ask Joy. 192 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: Joy Benedet is joining us from CBSLA, who's on the 193 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: story from the get go. Joy. The baby goes missing. 194 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: We're told in the parking lot of Big five Sportings 195 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: Good Sporting Goods. How far away is the Reino Valley. 196 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 2: It's probably about a thirty to forty five minute drive 197 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 2: from where the baby went missing from what was reported 198 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 2: missing from, we should say, but. 199 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: It is not too far from their home. So I'm 200 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: trying to figure out how a baby goes missing, vanishes 201 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: in a parking lot and now almost an hour away, 202 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: we're coming through rugged terrain. This is how we were told. 203 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: The baby goes missing. 204 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 8: Seventy miles east of Los Angeles in Yukaipa, Rebecca Horrow 205 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 8: steps one needs a new mouthpiece for football. She has 206 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 8: to a sporting good store with seven month old Emmanuel. 207 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 8: Rebecca Harrow realizes baby Emmanuel dirtied his diaper, and she 208 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 8: prepares to change his diaper before going into the store. 209 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 8: Rebecca Horrow play baby Emmanuel next to his car seat 210 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 8: to change his diaper when she hears a man say 211 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 8: oh lah. Before she can return the greeting, she has 212 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 8: knocked unconscious. When she wakes up, baby Emmanuel is gone. 213 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 8: Rebecca Harrow races inside the Big Five and asks an 214 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 8: employee if she has seen a baby or a person 215 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 8: with a baby come into the store. Nine one one 216 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 8: is called at seven forty five, where. 217 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: Is seven month old baby Emmanuel. 218 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 2: They have searched the home, they have searched nearby fields, 219 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 2: they have searched along the highways. 220 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: But when she woke up from the attack, the baby 221 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: is gone. No money is taken. There's no sex attack, 222 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: no carjack. She heard one word ola and she wakes 223 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: up in the baby's debt. At this hour, the search 224 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: for baby Emmanuel goes on as we speak tonight for 225 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: seven month old baby Emmanuel and joining me right now. 226 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: Doctor Thomas Con, Chief Medical Examiner District to Medical Examiner's Office, 227 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: State of Florida Forensic Pathologists talks to cologist neuropathologist, Doctor Coin, 228 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I heard Joy Benedict 229 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: and Steve Fisher state that in addition to shoulder to 230 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: shoulder searches for baby emmanual and very rough terrain, cadaver 231 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: dogs have been brought out. Cadaver dogs look only for 232 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: human tissue from a deceased human. So my question is this, 233 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: doctor Con, the dogs are not looking for a live baby. 234 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: How quickly after a child is killed would decomp begin. 235 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: What is it so quickly after death that cadaver dogs 236 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: can smell? 237 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 9: Well, The process of decomposition starts immediately after we die. 238 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 9: Once our immune system is basically shut down, as our 239 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 9: blood stops circulating all that bacteria that's withinside our internal cavities, 240 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 9: our intestines begins to digest us and that process called 241 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 9: puture faction, produces a number of volatile chemicals as it 242 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 9: begins to digest our blood, our body fat. And those 243 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 9: are the chemicals, those organic chemicals that the dogs pick up, 244 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 9: and those are what the dogs are actually trained on. 245 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 9: These dogs will actually be trained on the scent of 246 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 9: decomposing remains at various stages of decomposition, and they can 247 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:38,479 Speaker 9: pick up that sound, excuse me, that smell very readily. 248 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: Doctor Cooin. I'm sure that you are used to a 249 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: constant influx to stream of dead bodies, including children, babies, 250 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: they at accidental, natural cause, undetermined, or homicide. But when 251 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: I look at this baby's picture, control them. I'd like 252 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: to see baby Hero. I want to see Emmanuel. When 253 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: I look at baby Emmanuel, he's just seven months old, 254 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: I just want to hold him. I want to bring 255 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: him home. With me. I want to feed him, I 256 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: want him to help get well. I want to see 257 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: one picture of this baby with a smile, just one. 258 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: I have come through every photo I have of this baby, 259 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: and not one photo is this baby smiling. Not one. 260 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: I'm not the only one that's noticed on Twitter, on Facebook, 261 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: everywhere instant everyone's saying does the baby never smile? Why? 262 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: But doctor Thomas Coin, when I hear what you're saying 263 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: about putrification, and he says something about the body fluids 264 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: start digesting the baby, and I look at this photos, 265 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: I don't know how you do it everyday. Coin, It's hard. 266 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 9: Those are the hardest cases that I have to be 267 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 9: able to tom these cases, in particular as a father myself. 268 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 9: You have to get good at talking your emotions inside 269 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 9: and doing the job that's necessary so you can help 270 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 9: bring justice to these poor kids. 271 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: What were you saying about the body's fluids actually digest 272 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: the body? Is that what you said? 273 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 9: Yeah? So what happens is, you know, our intestines, especially 274 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 9: they're aligned with bacteria, and that bacteria will literally begin 275 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 9: to digest our tissues. Because now that we're dead, our 276 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 9: own bodies immune system isn't there to protect us, and 277 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 9: so that bacteria can just move all throughout our body, 278 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 9: digesting our tissues, and also as our tissues break down 279 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 9: enzymes within our own our own body tissues. Now I 280 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 9: can also aid in that process. So over time, especially 281 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 9: if this body is outside, that process will proceed pretty rapidly. 282 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 9: So you within thirty minutes or so of a body 283 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 9: dying and decomposition starting, there should be enough volatilized organic 284 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 9: compounds that any dog can pick up that scent. 285 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: Doctor Coin, If I could just keep you for just 286 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: a few more moments, I want you. I want to 287 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: talk to you about baby Emmanuel's sister. Baby Emmanual's sister. Yes, 288 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: he has a sister. This tiny little boy has a sister, 289 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: doctor Coin. And the sister cannot speak, The sister cannot walk, 290 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: the sister cannot see listen. 291 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 8: The sister of Emmanuel was so badly injured at just 292 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 8: ten weeks she was left unable to see, talk, or walk. 293 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 8: The little girl is being raised by her adoptive mother, 294 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 8: who renamed the child Promised Faith. At just ten weeks old, 295 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 8: Promised had an acute fractured rib, healing fractures of six ribs, 296 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 8: a skull fracture, a brain hemorrhage, swelling of the neck, healing, 297 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 8: fractured leg bone, and nutritional neglect. Caro and his former 298 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 8: partner Vanessa Alvina were both charged with child cruelty in 299 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 8: twenty eighteen, to which Horrow pleading guilty. 300 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: Joy benedet de joining US investigative reporter. Are you telling 301 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 1: me that baby Immanuel was living in the home with 302 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:45,479 Speaker 1: the man that did that to Emmanual's sister. She can't see, 303 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: she can't walk because of the severe baiting. 304 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 2: Her father did plead guilty to wilful child cruelty because 305 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 2: of that case. I am also told by his attorney 306 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,479 Speaker 2: he represented him at the time, that he completed fifty 307 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 2: five weeks of parenting classes afterwards, and he was currently 308 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 2: on probation for that case when maybe Emmanuel was reported. 309 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: You hold on, okay, have I gone to crazy land 310 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: crime stories with Nancy Grace? Let me understand this. I'm 311 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 1: looking at my notes again. At just ten weeks old, 312 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 1: Promise has an acute fracture rip ten weeks healing fractures 313 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: of six ribs. That means he had already beaten her 314 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: to where he broke the ribs and they're now healing 315 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: a skull fracture, a brain hemorrhage, swelling of the neck, 316 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 1: a fractured leg bone, nutritional neglect that means starving. I'd 317 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: have to go to law school to figure that out. 318 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: Not only that she cannot see, talk or walk ever. Ever, 319 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 1: And did you say, Joy Benedict, that he got parenting classes. 320 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: He did. 321 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 2: He served a term in jail and then he got 322 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 2: parenting classes and probation. In that case, he had a 323 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 2: co defendant, so it wasn't just him, it was also 324 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 2: the mother of that child. Obviously, they both custody. And 325 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 2: it's just terrific, terrific to hear. 326 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: The injury twenty eighteen. Excuse me, but Jackie, am I wrong? 327 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: Isn't it just twenty twenty five right now? So let's 328 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: see eighteen, So tried there from twenty twenty five. So 329 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: he's already out, he's had another baby, and now that 330 00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: baby is missing. So he gets parenting class, a short 331 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: stint behind bars, and he's out and now baby Emmanuel 332 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: is missing. Okay, back to doctor Thomas Coin. Doctor Coin, 333 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: I know this is excruciating and I've had to do 334 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: this in front of the jury, and I could look 335 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: over at them. I hate it even look at them 336 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: because some of them would be wincing when they heard this. 337 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 1: But could you explain what happened to Promise Faith, this 338 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: missing baby's sister, who was found in this horrible condition 339 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: at just ten weeks? Ten weeks, what happened to her? 340 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 9: Coin, well, specifically abusive trauma? I mean, you know the 341 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 9: totality of her injuries right the fact that she has 342 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 9: rib fractures, she has a fracture of her leg, she 343 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 9: has a skull fracture, and hemorrhage within her brain. That 344 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 9: pattern right there, distribution of injuries is characteristic of abuse 345 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 9: of trauma. And I say that because so often you'll 346 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 9: hear parents try to explain this as a fall. I 347 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 9: actually dropped the child, or the child stole up. 348 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm having a choking incident. A choking incident, 349 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 1: because that's exactly what he said. He said some bs 350 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: about he was bathing her and she fell. Oh hey, Coin, 351 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: wait a minute, back to Benedict Joy. Benedict, you said 352 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: he did a stint in jail. Joy. To be clear, 353 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: he did one hundred and eighty days days in jail 354 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: on on work release. That's what he did. Isn't that 355 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 1: a little glossing over? Isn't that a little putting perfume 356 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: on the pig? You said he did some jail time, 357 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty days in jail on work release. 358 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: That's what he got. Joy. 359 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 2: I know it doesn't seem like a lot. That's why 360 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 2: I said it wasn't a lot of time that he 361 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 2: spent in jail, and then he got out. He's on probation, 362 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: he's done fifty five weeks. He has an older child 363 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 2: with his first wife. This little girl that you're referring 364 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 2: to is with his second wife. He is then have 365 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 2: a third wife, who's now accused in this case. 366 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: They have not won. 367 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 2: Emmanuel is not the only child there. They have a 368 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 2: second child, another little girl. 369 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: Oh my stars. Back to this shrink, Karen Stark. Why 370 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,959 Speaker 1: do these women keep taking up with him? He beats 371 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: children into being blind, deaf, can't walk. Why I don't 372 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: get it. He keeps getting with women, and they keep 373 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: having babies and he keeps beating them. Nancy. 374 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 6: It's called trauma bunting. It's when a woman is with 375 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 6: a man who's abusive and they get intermittent reinforcement. There's 376 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 6: no stronger reinforcement than that where they are abused and 377 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 6: then their partner apologizes gets them gifts. 378 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: What did you say about intimate What did you say 379 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: about intimate intermittent? 380 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 6: That means to me intermittent, which means comittant reinforcement, which 381 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 6: means that every so often they get wonderful gifts and 382 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 6: apologies and recognition from their partner, which keeps them tied 383 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 6: despite the abuse. It's a terrible pattern and it happens 384 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 6: to women all the time. Trum. 385 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: Okay, you know what, Karen Stark, you can talk to 386 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: me all day, all day about trauma bonding. But Philip Debay, 387 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: that is a croc b s. I don't know they've 388 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: had that legal terming your jurisdiction. Maybe they need it 389 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 1: because you can smell it a mile away, Like somehow 390 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: the mom's not responsible because she was getting a gift 391 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: every other week. Really, and the price for that gift 392 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: is watching your child being beaten until it's literally blind. 393 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: Oh no, Mommy is not walking on this, not if 394 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: I have anything to do with this. Over my cold 395 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: dead body, is Mommy going to get away with Karen 396 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: Stark's trauma bonding defense. 397 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 10: She's going to get away with being an accessory after 398 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 10: the fact. And the good news for Rebecca Harrow is 399 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 10: that in California it tops out at three years. You 400 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 10: only have to do half of it even if it's 401 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 10: a felony. So unfortunately for the justice system, for the 402 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 10: public and the world at large, there really might not 403 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 10: be any justice. 404 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 7: As to her. As to him, he is going down 405 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 7: like the Hindenburg. 406 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we'll see because the last time when he 407 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: beat the baby into oblivion and to Coin hasn't even 408 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: described the injuries yet. Just wait till you hear that debate. 409 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: I want you to know that this mom, the other mom, 410 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: was in on it as well. Okay, she stood by 411 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: and watched her baby girl getting beaten into basically paralysis. 412 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: She can't walk here speak. See, this mom knew what 413 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 1: she was getting into and more important, what she was 414 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: subjecting her children to. She knew about the previous beating 415 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: incident when she chucked up with this piece of crap. 416 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 11: Listen, Rebecca and Jay Carrow married in twenty twenty one, 417 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 11: and she was aware of his previous child cruelty case. 418 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 11: Harro claims they have a wonderful relationship, and he treats 419 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 11: her sixteen year old child as well as their two 420 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 11: year old daughter and e Manuel very good, saying he's 421 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 11: a good dad. 422 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 1: What they refuse a polygraph? A witness says mom had 423 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: that black eye before the attack and the Big five 424 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: parting lot. I'm yelling about this situation. I'm yelling about 425 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: this baby gone and mommy and daddy won't take a polygraph. 426 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 1: The portal thing. If he's alive, who has him? Is 427 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: he being fed? Is he alive? Do we have a 428 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: chance to save him? Could he be alive? We haven't 429 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: found a body yet. Joining me an all star panel 430 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: to makes sense of what we know right now. But 431 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: in case you're worried about us going easy on mommy, 432 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: that's not happening. I want you to hear about daddy 433 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: helping in the search. 434 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 8: The father of seven month old Emmanuel was pulled out 435 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 8: of jail in his orange jumpsuit and take into a 436 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,239 Speaker 8: remote area of Marino Valley. Over a dozen vehicles from 437 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 8: the San Bernardina County Sheriff's Department parked alongside the stretch 438 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 8: of Moreno Valley known as the Bad Lens. The steep 439 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 8: terrain is searched with cadaver dogs, but failed to locate 440 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 8: the baby. The department's stresses while Caro was at the scene, 441 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 8: he was not helping in the searche. 442 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: Okay, your dad has to be pulled out of jail 443 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: and comes to help look for you. But isn't it true, 444 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: Dave Mack that l E Law enforcement said, Oh, he's 445 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: not helping us. We just brought him out here. He 446 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: hasn't been helping us. 447 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 3: That's exactly what they said, Nancy. I saw the pictures too. 448 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 3: I saw him standing out there, and I thought, what 449 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 3: in the world are they doing with him. I'm guessing 450 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 3: they put him out there to see his reaction as 451 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 3: they looked in different areas, because they flat out said 452 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 3: he is not helping us. 453 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: Oh wait, well w wa wait, wait, wait wait wait, 454 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: I'll come back to you. Look there he is. He's 455 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: just looking off in another direction. He's not talking to anybody. 456 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: He was just standing there, and as our camera zoomed in, 457 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: he started walking in another other direction, away from l 458 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: E from our friends at kay cal, Hey, let's see 459 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: that again, Dave make I just wanted to point that 460 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: out because I don't think you can see your monitor 461 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: go ahead. 462 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's actually not helping at all, Nancy. And you know, 463 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 3: the whole live that has come from the hiros from 464 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 3: both of them, has the police department in all law 465 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 3: enforcement from multiple agencies at their wits end because they're 466 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 3: having to truy they know what they're looking for. Nancy. 467 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 3: This is not this is not a family pet. This 468 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 3: is a seven month old baby that they are looking 469 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 3: in the roughest terrain in the world for. And they 470 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 3: bring out the baby's father and he doesn't even boy 471 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 3: to offer any kind of assistance, any kind of help. 472 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 3: He just stands there. 473 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Okay, Karen Stark, I'm about 474 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: to go to Rawlings President Child Welfare and Justice Transformation. 475 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: But Karen, you knew my dad, my soulmate. When I 476 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: was a little girl, I had to get allergy shots 477 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: twice a week, one in each arm. And before we 478 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: could even get back from the doctor, he would have 479 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: been working the night shift, so as soon as he 480 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: got out of school, he'd take me to the allergy doctor. 481 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: Before we could even get home, i'd have like two 482 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: goose eggs on my arm. I wouldn't be crying, I'd 483 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: just be sitting there. But I remember looking over at 484 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: my dad driving. He would be crying because he would 485 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: look over and see my arms swollen up. And now 486 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: I'm looking at this poc. He's not even helping and 487 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: l E very rarely would make a comment like that. 488 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: But because Dad's lawyer said, oh, he's cooperating, he's helping 489 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: b S, he's not helping. My dad would have been 490 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: lying out there, prone, screaming for help, doing anything he could. 491 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: This guy, he's doing nothing. Help me, Karen. 492 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 6: He has no feelings, Nancy. We know that this guy 493 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 6: has an antisocial personality. He doesn't feel anything. This little baby, 494 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 6: it could be a chair, it could be a doll. 495 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: It's not real to him. 496 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 6: He just standing there because he's not feeling anything. I 497 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 6: know it's hard to believe, but that's what this personality 498 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 6: type is life. 499 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: Think about it. 500 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 6: If he's able to beat him a ten week old 501 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 6: so she can't see her walk, he has the capacity 502 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 6: to do whatever he wants to do, be completely narcissistic 503 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 6: and not care what they're doing. Who they're looking for 504 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,479 Speaker 6: for is his child? To him, he's not connected. It 505 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 6: doesn't matter. 506 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: Tom Rawlings joining me President Child Welfare and Justice Transformation, 507 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: former juvenile court judge, child advocate, author of Protecting other 508 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: People's Children, Tom. I know some people think I mean 509 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: too hard on mommy, but I believe she knowingly subjected 510 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: her children to this animal. He is an animal. 511 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 7: Absolutely. 512 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 12: Nancy not only did she subject him his child her 513 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 12: future children. Remember she had children with him. After knowing 514 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 12: that he took an innocent ten week old child and 515 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 12: shook or squeezed the child almost to death, apparently lost 516 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 12: his parental rights on that. The only punishment he got 517 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 12: was some time in jail and parenting classes. When Rebecca 518 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 12: Harrow and Jake Harrow had a child together, that child 519 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 12: should have been immediately removed from their custody because he 520 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 12: was not confident to raise a child. Instead, we now 521 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 12: have another situation where apparently he's done it again. 522 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: I don't like what you just said. Rawlings not competent 523 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: to raise a child. You know, ding dongs have children 524 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: all the time, and they love the children and take 525 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: care of the children. You don't have to have a 526 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: PhD or be a former judge like yourself to be 527 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: a loving parent. You don't have to be smart. You 528 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,439 Speaker 1: just have to care about the baby. I think it's 529 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: far from not competent. I think that he is violent 530 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: and hateful and frankly, I know the TV world hates 531 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,800 Speaker 1: this word. He's evil, He's the devil. Are you sitting down, 532 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: Tom Rawlings, because you may need to lay down for this. 533 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: Listen to this. Jackie dug this up for me. His 534 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: former partners and spouses include wait for it, everybody Isabelle 535 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: Gonzalez ex wife file domestic violence protective order against him, 536 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: also requesting protection for son Eli. So he was obviously 537 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: abusing and beaten on Eli Vanessa Avena twenty eighteen, they 538 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 1: were both charged with felony child cruelty regarding what happened 539 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,760 Speaker 1: to the little baby girl I told you about Rebecca Harrow. 540 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:37,439 Speaker 1: They are charged now with the murder of baby Emmanuel. 541 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: So this is the third instance that we know of 542 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: of him beating on and forever paralyzing one child. And 543 00:35:55,640 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: now baby Emmanuel is missing and police believe the baby 544 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: is dead. And somebody wants me to debate, wants me 545 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 1: to go easy on the mom in this case? What 546 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: about it? 547 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 7: Rollings absolutely not. 548 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 12: She When you when you go into this situation, when 549 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 12: you have a child or the man, you know to 550 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 12: be evil and violent like this man, and then you 551 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 12: apparently cover up for the bad things he's done to 552 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 12: your child and you act like you create this scene. Well, 553 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 12: my child was kidnapped. Well you know this is This 554 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 12: is called being part of the problem, and she needs 555 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,720 Speaker 12: to suffer significant punishment as well. She cannot sit there 556 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,839 Speaker 12: and act like she's the victim. I'm sorry this it 557 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 12: takes It took two of them to create this child. 558 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 12: It apparently took two of them to harm this child 559 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 12: and then deceive the public and law enforcement about what 560 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 12: one of them or both of them had done. 561 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: Well, Philip do Bay and your zealous defense of mommy, 562 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: I just want to remind you that she knew about 563 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: the injuries to the baby's sister. Doctor Coin, could you 564 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: explain those injuries to Dubay before he launches his defense. 565 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 4: Sure. 566 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 9: I mean they reported at the hospital that she had 567 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 9: a fracture of her skull. She also had hemorrhage within 568 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 9: her brain and hemorrhage within the retina of both eyes. 569 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 9: She also had fractures to the back of her ribs 570 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 9: both sides, as well as a fracture of her right 571 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 9: lower leg bone. And so this is consistent with abuse 572 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 9: of trauma. It's almost similar to grabbing a child by 573 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 9: the leg and slamming them into something where you have 574 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:58,280 Speaker 9: impact trauma of the skull causing the fracture the bleeding 575 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 9: within the brain as well as the eyes, and then 576 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 9: sort of a twisting type injury of the leg most 577 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 9: likely when grabbing the child and using that appendage to 578 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 9: sort of strike the child into something. 579 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: Doctor Corn explained to me how a baby after a 580 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 1: bating loses sight, hearing, and the ability to walk. 581 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,800 Speaker 9: Sure most likely due to the trauma to the brain 582 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 9: and head. So, for instance, there was significant injury to 583 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 9: the eye. So in other words, when you strike a 584 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 9: child against something, the forces can actually tear or separate 585 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 9: the layers of the redin of the eyes, so that 586 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 9: you can have direct injury to the eyes themselves, but 587 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 9: you can also severely image the nerves, the optic nerves 588 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 9: that allow us to see, that allow the eyes to 589 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 9: communicate with the brain. In addition, the brain trauma itself, 590 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 9: so you know, our ability to walk, motor control is 591 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 9: through our brain and spinal cord. And this child also 592 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 9: had cervical neck injury, So if there was injury to 593 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 9: the nerves that travel to the spinal cord. Injury to 594 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 9: the parts of our brain that control our ability to move, 595 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 9: then that can certainly prevent that child from walking or 596 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 9: having difficulty walking as that child gets older. The same 597 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 9: thing our ears. So sound is produced in our ear 598 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,720 Speaker 9: or is received from our ears, but it's our brain 599 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 9: that allows us to hear. It's the auditory processing centers 600 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,320 Speaker 9: in our brain. And so if there was significant damage 601 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 9: to the brain, especially in the temporal regions, which is 602 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,760 Speaker 9: like right behind our ears, then that could also prevent 603 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 9: that child from being able to hear. 604 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 8: In the Southern California News Group, Rebecca Harrow denies that 605 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 8: she went to the Big Five and you Kaipa days 606 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 8: before she reported the kidnapping and told employees her car 607 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 8: had been burgularized in the parking lot and asked if 608 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,760 Speaker 8: the business had surveillance cameras. The Sheriff's Department has yet 609 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 8: to address the claims. 610 00:39:55,600 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: Join Benedict is that true. Didployees at Big Five state 611 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 1: that the mother, Rebecca Harrow, was there days ahead of 612 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: the kidnap of baby Emmanuel, claiming she had been burglarized, 613 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 1: her car had been burglarized, and asking were their surveillance 614 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 1: videos in the parking lot. 615 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 2: There's a lot of things in their community about what 616 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 2: happened and whether the Horros had been there or at 617 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 2: another business, or whether they were asking about security cameras. 618 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 2: I did not hear that directly from any employee of 619 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,719 Speaker 2: Big Five, but I know a lot of people are 620 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,840 Speaker 2: spreading those types of conversations. 621 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 1: Spreading conversations, I call them witnesses. Philip de Bay. If 622 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: there is a witness stating that mommy, Rebecca Harrow was 623 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:51,320 Speaker 1: there at the Big five days before the baby goes missing, 624 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: asking is there surveillance video in the parking lot, Oh, 625 00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: it's over, put a fork in her. It's done. She 626 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: was planning a way to devise a fake kidnap of 627 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,279 Speaker 1: the baby, and the baby was already gone or dead. 628 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 10: If everything that she did occurred after the fact, after 629 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 10: her quote unquote husband murdered that child, it does not 630 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 10: make her complicit. And moreover, any foreknowledge that she had 631 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,919 Speaker 10: of the other child is not imputed to her. There 632 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 10: is no way for her ahead of time to have 633 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 10: had advanced knowledge of the other baby's medical chart. The 634 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 10: police reports from the other case to say that she 635 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 10: is complicit in this worst case scenario, she is an 636 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,439 Speaker 10: accessory after the fact, trying to protect him any way 637 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 10: she can, likely out of fear. Frankly, she's probably terrified 638 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 10: that if she comes forward and exposes him in any 639 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:46,840 Speaker 10: way that she's next. 640 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:51,959 Speaker 1: Okay, so she put her own skin before saving her baby. Now, 641 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 1: isn't it true and this is a yes no if 642 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,399 Speaker 1: that's possible debate. Isn't it true that under the law, 643 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: a jury can take into account its actions before, during, 644 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: and after the murder? Yes, according to these witnesses, if 645 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: in fact they exist. The mom came to the Big 646 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,880 Speaker 1: five sporting goods store trying to case the joint and 647 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 1: determine if there were surveillance cameras in the parking lot, 648 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: and what a coincidence. A few days later, she's back 649 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: in the same parking lot, signs surveillance cameras and gets 650 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 1: attacked again in the parking lot, but this time they 651 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,279 Speaker 1: don't just burglarize her car. They take the baby and 652 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: blame some guy nobody sees that she can only identify 653 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:42,839 Speaker 1: by one word Olah. Okay, you save all that for 654 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 1: the jury. Okay, I just be mad if you didn't. 655 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,760 Speaker 1: But isn't it true regardless of what Dubay says about 656 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,239 Speaker 1: accessory after the fact is the only thing mommy can 657 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: be charged with. Dave mac what are the parents charged 658 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: with as of tonight? 659 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 3: As of right now, Rebecca Harrow has been charged with 660 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 3: first degree murder and Jay Harrow is charged with malice murder. 661 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 1: Question to Steve Fisher, we have not found a body. 662 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:20,920 Speaker 1: They could have given the baby away, they could have 663 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: sold the baby, they could have abandoned the baby somewhere 664 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:28,360 Speaker 1: in another state. I don't know what could l E 665 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:35,920 Speaker 1: have that tells them the baby is dead. Example, in 666 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,919 Speaker 1: the Jennifer DilOS, missing Connecticut mom of five case, we've 667 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,480 Speaker 1: never found her body, but there was such a copious 668 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: amount of blood in the garage where she had just 669 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,359 Speaker 1: come home from drop off at school. They could tell 670 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,560 Speaker 1: there's so much blood she had to be dead. So 671 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,840 Speaker 1: what could they have, Steve Fisher in this case to 672 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: embolden them to bring murder just without. 673 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,279 Speaker 4: A body, and they were quick to do that as well. 674 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,800 Speaker 5: I'd say, you know, blood, We've heard that there's possible 675 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:09,400 Speaker 5: blood evidence in the house. 676 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,919 Speaker 4: Personally, they're processing the scene. I was there. 677 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 5: I saw them sifting, you know, through trash and they 678 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 5: seem to be focused on one particular room in the house. 679 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 5: They could have a confession from Jake, you know that 680 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 5: they you know, whether it's true or not. 681 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 4: We don't know if that I'm a body, but they 682 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,239 Speaker 4: could you. 683 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 1: Know, what could they have with fiscal evidence. 684 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 5: They could you know, they blood from if they have 685 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,240 Speaker 5: blood from the house when they processed it. From the 686 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 5: view they sees the vehicle, Uh, there could be a 687 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:39,840 Speaker 5: forensic material in that vehicle. 688 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,880 Speaker 4: You know, there would be they seize their cell phones. 689 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 5: You know, who knows what could have been in the erase, 690 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,279 Speaker 5: you know, folders on that which celebrate can pull out. Uh, 691 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,800 Speaker 5: there could be you know, other digital you know, friends 692 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,800 Speaker 5: that they could be talking about, concocting a story. You know. 693 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:00,680 Speaker 1: I'll tell you there's a reason they are searching the 694 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: Marino Valley. Philip Dobay, they had a search warrant and 695 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:11,560 Speaker 1: the lawyer had them hand over their devices. Dbay, the 696 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,240 Speaker 1: LA believed the baby is dead. I don't know that yet, 697 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 1: but they could have the NAV system from the car, 698 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,200 Speaker 1: like in Alex Murdoch's case that proved he was at 699 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,239 Speaker 1: the crime scene at the time of the murders. They 700 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:29,719 Speaker 1: could have digital forensic evidants, like in Brian Coburger where 701 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: he stopped the victims twenty plus times and then kept 702 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,840 Speaker 1: going back to the scene. We know that Dad's car 703 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,720 Speaker 1: has been impounded. There could be all sorts of evidence 704 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,319 Speaker 1: in there and on their phones, such as in the 705 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 1: case of Madeline Soto, where the no account live in 706 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:54,759 Speaker 1: boyfriend murdered her after years of sex abuse on his 707 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,520 Speaker 1: girlfriend's little girl. He had videos of the little girl 708 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 1: being abused on his phone. They're so telling what they 709 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,479 Speaker 1: were saying to each other when they were getting rid 710 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,839 Speaker 1: of the seven month old baby. It could be any 711 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,160 Speaker 1: number of things. 712 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,359 Speaker 10: Of course it could, but my guess is that they 713 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 10: have bloodhouse evidence, so cadaver dogs. For whatever reason or 714 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:22,360 Speaker 10: somehow the dogs picked up on cadaverine futresine, which obviously 715 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:28,560 Speaker 10: detects the presence of decomposing human flesh. Moreover, it's very 716 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 10: possible too that there is a digital blueprint putting them 717 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:38,319 Speaker 10: out in those sort of marshy, rough terrain areas where 718 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,239 Speaker 10: they believe that baby may prompt And it's possible too 719 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,719 Speaker 10: that the police interrogation with Jake that they use what 720 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:51,759 Speaker 10: I call that manipulative law enforcement reconstruction technique where they 721 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,840 Speaker 10: try to give him the opportunity to get off his chest, 722 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 10: what if anything happens so he can give his version. 723 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,479 Speaker 10: And what it does is that they lure him out 724 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 10: to the dumping site in the hopes that they can get. 725 00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,320 Speaker 7: A visceral response out of him. 726 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,239 Speaker 1: And point, are you suggesting there's something wrong with that? 727 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,759 Speaker 1: In the Supreme Court? The US Supreme Court rule on that. 728 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:17,280 Speaker 1: It's called a Christian burial case euphemistically, where the killer 729 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:19,440 Speaker 1: was lured to a scene and made it feel so 730 00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,200 Speaker 1: guilty he blurted out where the body was. There's absolutely 731 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,040 Speaker 1: nothing wrong with that. I don't know why you're saying 732 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:24,600 Speaker 1: it like that. 733 00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:29,280 Speaker 7: No, No, it's completely lawful. But it was unsuccessful. 734 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,520 Speaker 10: Here he stood his ground and he's not able to 735 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,320 Speaker 10: point them in that direction or refuse. 736 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:36,719 Speaker 1: Oh well, aren't you proud of him? He stood his 737 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,160 Speaker 1: ground and didn't help find his baby In the last 738 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:42,840 Speaker 1: hour is a press conference regarding baby Emmanuel from local 739 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,560 Speaker 1: LA law enforcement Dave Matt What happened. 740 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,120 Speaker 8: As investigators looked for the body of seven month old 741 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,960 Speaker 8: Emmanuel Harrow. His father, convicted Fella Jake Harrow, finally comes 742 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,560 Speaker 8: clean with detectives, telling them he rolled over in bed 743 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,440 Speaker 8: and accidentally killed the infant. Knowing they're only getting a 744 00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:06,160 Speaker 8: partial confession, investigators put an undercover officer in the cell 745 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 8: with Horrow to be his new best friend, and in 746 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,360 Speaker 8: short order, Harrow tells his new SELLI he kills his 747 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,239 Speaker 8: son and put his body in a trash can in 748 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:15,760 Speaker 8: their home. 749 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,040 Speaker 1: As we wait for justice to unfold in the search 750 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:23,280 Speaker 1: for baby Emmanuel, we remember an American hero Trooper James 751 00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:27,279 Speaker 1: Amanda Inn Wy State Police Department, killed in the line 752 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:32,279 Speaker 1: of duty after eighteen years of service, leaving behind a 753 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:41,160 Speaker 1: grieving fiancee, Teresa. American hero Trooper James Monda thank you, Terry, 754 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,640 Speaker 1: Thank you to our guest tonight, but especially to you 755 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:49,439 Speaker 1: for being with us tonight and every night. Nobody ever 756 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:57,920 Speaker 1: said crime is pretty, crime is not entertainment. There is 757 00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:02,440 Speaker 1: a chance we can find this baby alive. If you 758 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:08,040 Speaker 1: know or think you know anything about baby Emmanuel, please 759 00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:12,640 Speaker 1: call nine zero nine three eight seven eight three one 760 00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:17,759 Speaker 1: three repeat nine zero nine three eight seven eight three 761 00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:24,719 Speaker 1: one three Nancy Grace signing off, Goodbye, Mad