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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly

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Speaker 1: Fry and I'm Tracy B. Wilson. Oh, Tracy. We finally

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Speaker 1: slotted in that horrible murder. We did. We did, and uh,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm glad we held off a little bit

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Speaker 1: on it because it just really did feel like just

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Speaker 1: it was just too early to do something that grizzly.

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Speaker 1: Happy New Year. Here's some murder question for you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we know that Marie had been widowed at least once.

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Speaker 1: We don't know what happened to the husband. Any speculation

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Speaker 1: that no now. And what's very funny is that in

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Speaker 1: the midst of all of the press that you look at,

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Speaker 1: which does definitely cast her as like a villain, the

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Speaker 1: fact that they're like, she's so ugly, she must be bad.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm gonna travel through time and punch a

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Speaker 1: reporter in the face. But um, don't be violent kids. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I'm shocked that none of them invoked that, And

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Speaker 1: we're like, well, you know, she has a past. None

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Speaker 1: of that ever comes up in any of those articles.

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Speaker 1: So if there was info on him, I did not

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Speaker 1: stumble across it. I mentioned both in the episode and

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Speaker 1: just now that whole shenanigans um of talking about like

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Speaker 1: that whole like her husband is so pretty, he can't

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Speaker 1: be bad already irritating. Um. But I really lost my

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Speaker 1: mind when I got to that article about how irritated

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Speaker 1: Monte Carlo was with the whole thing, because it was

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Speaker 1: so horrifying, and they were like, there's never a mention

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Speaker 1: in that article of like that the woman Emma Levin

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Speaker 1: was such a value member of our little community. None

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Speaker 1: of that. It's just like, well, damn it. Now we

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Speaker 1: have to figure out how to carry out this sentence.

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Speaker 1: It's the it's the season, Like, what kind of messed

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Speaker 1: up values are these? This murder caused us a lot

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Speaker 1: of inconvenience. Oh um. I did want to note, just

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Speaker 1: in terms of like housekeeping, we mentioned her jewelry being

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Speaker 1: valued at thousand francs. I will say, estimates for that

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Speaker 1: jewelry are kind of all over the place. Um, So

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Speaker 1: if you look at additional articles about it, you may

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Speaker 1: see different numbers. I went with the one that seemed

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Speaker 1: to come up the most. The other thing that I

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Speaker 1: wanted to mention is spellings, because they are also all

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Speaker 1: over the place. Most of the time you will see

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Speaker 1: Gould spelled with two oh s, I almost said to zeros,

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Speaker 1: which is hilarious. Um, but you will also sometimes see

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Speaker 1: it is g o U l D. So, just in

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Speaker 1: case there is anyone out there who like me, is like,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go looking through old newspaper archives and

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Speaker 1: you maybe want to find more stuff, the alternate spelling

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Speaker 1: might help you get there. Although I did notice several

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Speaker 1: places have kind of corrected for both of both of

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Speaker 1: those spellings to point to the same articles. The inconvenience

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Speaker 1: thing is going to hang me up for days days. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it does seem like something you would see in uh

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Speaker 1: movie satirizing rich people, like a movie that would have

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Speaker 1: sort of a like a murder but also kind of

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Speaker 1: a comedic element where we are making fun of the

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Speaker 1: people involved in the murder. Not exactly like Clue, but

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Speaker 1: a little. Yeah. But Tracy, the fashionable season is just beginning.

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Speaker 1: I just I can't that phrase in particular. I'm just

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Speaker 1: like I cannot believe. Presumably an actual human journalist put

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Speaker 1: that to paper and was like, yes, yet, let's go

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Speaker 1: to print. There's also the part where they got the

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Speaker 1: you know, hey, something something's leaking out of your trunk.

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Speaker 1: Oh oh, I put our fresh chicken in there. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess you could say that some sort of compliment

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Speaker 1: to the chickens of France being more delicious than what

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Speaker 1: they thought they might get once they got back to England.

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Speaker 1: But that again, it was very weird. Uh. That That

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Speaker 1: is the other thing that's very very fascinating to me

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Speaker 1: is to watch the Goulds try to tap dance around

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Speaker 1: the reactions to their various stories and amend them in

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Speaker 1: ways to try to land somewhere that is palatable in

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Speaker 1: terms of of ability to I'm going to say their audience,

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Speaker 1: that's not really what it is. But two investigators in

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Speaker 1: the court. Here's the thing. Because we have so many

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Speaker 1: different versions, I don't know that anyone will ever know

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Speaker 1: what really happened. Possibly the truth is in there in

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Speaker 1: in some version that they told, or some combination of

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Speaker 1: all of them would lead us to the truth. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the the Acom's razor version, right. Yes, of course she

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Speaker 1: wanted her money back, they didn't have it. They panicked

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Speaker 1: and killed her. Um. That seems like the most obvious explanation,

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Speaker 1: but I think the actual details are things that we

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Speaker 1: will never really know. I kept thinking throughout probably is

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Speaker 1: the way my brain was trying to soothe me of

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Speaker 1: And I have said it to you many times throughout

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Speaker 1: recording the line from the Corpse Bride where they saying

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Speaker 1: and a murder most foul, and I think that I

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Speaker 1: think that is getting me through not building a time

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Speaker 1: machine to go back and cause some sort of chagrin

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Speaker 1: to the people who wrote about how sad it was

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Speaker 1: that Monte Carlo was so strained under this horrible besmirching

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Speaker 1: of their fashionable season. I'm literally going to grouse about

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Speaker 1: this for a good six months. I think, Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: seems it seems legitimate, it seems appropriate. I'll put it

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Speaker 1: on a list of grievance. I promise I'll move to

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Speaker 1: happier things soon. We're recording three episodes in the session.

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Speaker 1: Unless something goes wrong. This is the first one, so

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Speaker 1: we'll see. Uh. None of them are happy in any way.

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Speaker 1: I would say it's a particularly dour, grim recording session.

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Speaker 1: But what I have on my list next is the opposite.

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Speaker 1: I have a few things on my list, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like I'm gonna try very hard. I keep picking.

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Speaker 1: Can I'm in one of those grim phases. And it's

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Speaker 1: not even that I'm so like I'm in any kind

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Speaker 1: of like depressed state, or I think it's actually the opposite.

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Speaker 1: When I'm in a fairly good mental state is when

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Speaker 1: I can really take on the more grim ones, becoming

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Speaker 1: completely debilitated by it. So I'm like, m M A

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Speaker 1: murder most foul um. We'll see. I'll come up with

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Speaker 1: something silly soon, I promise. I feel like before we

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Speaker 1: we end this one, I should mention that I did

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Speaker 1: not say in the episode that our listener male Jenna's

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Speaker 1: came with a picture for two cats, and I did

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Speaker 1: not take the time to mention how stink and cute

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Speaker 1: those cats are. And I feel like they're very much

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Speaker 1: in Tracy's wheelhouse. Not to give out your personal information,

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Speaker 1: but you too have two adorable black cats. It's fine,

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Speaker 1: I thought so, but yeah, because you share that sometimes online.

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Speaker 1: But the pile of black cats, there's there's almost nothing

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Speaker 1: better on earth. So Jenna, thank you, because I needed

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Speaker 1: that too. This week, we talked about the the punitive

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Speaker 1: expedition that Britain carried out in the Kingdom of Benin

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Speaker 1: and artwork that was plundered from that expedition, and man,

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Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff was very hard to read. Yes,

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Speaker 1: the like British accounts of what they say they witnessed

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Speaker 1: in the capitol truly are horrifying, And it's one of

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Speaker 1: those things where you read them and you're like, this

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Speaker 1: is so horrifying. It does not seem real to me.

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Speaker 1: Um And so many not necessarily immediately recent, not things

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Speaker 1: written just now, but so each other stuff just uncritically

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Speaker 1: drew from those accounts, Like I found multiple references to

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Speaker 1: these these very lurid eyewitness accounts as being authoritative, and

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Speaker 1: it's like that this is obviously influenced by racist attitudes,

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Speaker 1: like the when you read the language of all of

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Speaker 1: the rest of the account, it's clearly there. So it's

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Speaker 1: like so much repeating of these same things without really examining, Hey,

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Speaker 1: follow this other racist language in here has not held up.

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Speaker 1: Why is this piece of it still being approached as

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Speaker 1: though it is an impartial account of what this fighting

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Speaker 1: force saw when it invaded a capital of another nation. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So it's tricky. Uh So I made sure as as

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Speaker 1: much as I could when I was researching this um,

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Speaker 1: Like a lot of my papers were written by Nigerian historians,

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Speaker 1: other people living in uh from parts of West Africa

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Speaker 1: to get their perspective and there read on what was happening,

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Speaker 1: rather than trying to just like parrot nineteenth century account

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Speaker 1: that's clearly threaded through with like biases of the day

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Speaker 1: that we're specifically being used to continue subjugating African kingdoms

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Speaker 1: and empires. I had two thoughts to have nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with that. Okay, they have nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: any of the hard stuff, which is not to make

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Speaker 1: light of it or try to divert from it. But um,

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Speaker 1: one thing that delighted me so much when I first

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Speaker 1: opened this document after you sent it over was the

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Speaker 1: mention of one of my favorite things, fractals. Oh yeah, yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: and it's like that that fractal part sounds really cool.

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Speaker 1: But over and over again I found these uh you know,

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Speaker 1: mainstream articles that were like, yeah, Europeans were really jerks

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Speaker 1: when they first saw these African capitals because they didn't understand.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, but all these accounts I just read did

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Speaker 1: not seem really it sounds beautiful. That's one of those

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Speaker 1: things that makes me um. To me, that very concept

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Speaker 1: of developing like a a building a city apply any

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Speaker 1: sort of design on a fractal it is evidence to

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Speaker 1: me of like an advancement of thinking, and not the opposite,

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Speaker 1: which is how it's sometimes like they're like it's confusing,

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Speaker 1: which it wasn't obviously to to everyone, but later on

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Speaker 1: they tried to pitch it that way, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: all you are showing me is that you do not

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Speaker 1: understand the mathematics of nature, which lots of people don't.

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Speaker 1: But um, and I'm not even saying I do. I

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Speaker 1: just have a the vaguast drive by grasp of it.

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Speaker 1: It like to say that that is evidence that it

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Speaker 1: was it was confusing, versus evidence that they were onto

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Speaker 1: something that cultures of the time we're largely putting people

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Speaker 1: in square and rectangular boxes, which are like the simplest

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Speaker 1: and most basic kinds of of design. It just struck

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Speaker 1: me as hilarious that that would be the case. Um.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that I wanted to mention when we

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Speaker 1: were recording, but it would have really like sidelines is

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Speaker 1: um you had included in your outline, UH the years

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Speaker 1: that various countries had outlawed execute public execution M and

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Speaker 1: you mentioned specifically France, UH and the outlawing of public

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Speaker 1: guillotine NG in nine, which sounds late. However, I will

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Speaker 1: bet that there were a few people in our listening

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Speaker 1: audience who, uh that peaked their memory, because we talked

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Speaker 1: about that on an episode where we talked about one

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Speaker 1: of our topics was a person, a famous person who

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Speaker 1: attended the last public guillotining in France. Do you remember

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Speaker 1: who it was? I don't remember this at all. Christopher Lee?

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, No, I did not remember that. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: he attended the last public guillotineing in France. Yeah, which

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Speaker 1: is something that comes up as a factoid about him

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Speaker 1: when you look at like quick, you know, Christopher Lee

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Speaker 1: was amazing and he genuinely was, as you know if

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Speaker 1: you listen to our episode. But um, yeah, that that

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Speaker 1: always makes me think about it when I think about

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Speaker 1: the end of guillotining and how late it came, I'm like, no,

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Speaker 1: really late, Like an actor you have loved in many

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Speaker 1: things saw it. Yeah, which is just a way to

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Speaker 1: connect that thread through history. So yeah, one of the

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Speaker 1: things that I think has added a layer of complexity

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Speaker 1: to you, like discussions of what is the best repatriation plan,

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Speaker 1: which we mentioned in the episode, but didn't go into

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Speaker 1: ton of a ton of detail on is that a

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Speaker 1: lot of these pieces, Like it's not just a standalone

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Speaker 1: work of art, it's like an expression of the nation's

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Speaker 1: history that was done within a specific context to record

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Speaker 1: that history. And questions of like if you put this,

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Speaker 1: if you hang this on a wall in a museum

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Speaker 1: without that whole historical context there, Like even if there's

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Speaker 1: a little plaque hanging up next to it, it's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is what this was about. Like there are some

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Speaker 1: questions about like how is that going to be adequate

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Speaker 1: to really convey what this meant? Um? And I was

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Speaker 1: actually trying to remember because I have seen the items

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Speaker 1: from Beningen that are in the Museum of Fine Arts

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Speaker 1: here in Boston, which I have not been I haven't

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Speaker 1: been into that building in a couple of years because

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Speaker 1: we're having a pandemic, And I was trying to remember, like,

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Speaker 1: how how was that for sented? How did I can

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Speaker 1: that I conceive of these things as works of art

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Speaker 1: or did I conceive of them as works of art

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Speaker 1: that were also cultural objects that were meant to represent

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Speaker 1: something beyond like a depiction of an animal, you know? Uh,

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Speaker 1: And it's it's tricky and complicated. Um well, especially because

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Speaker 1: those two things can overlap right right for sure, you

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Speaker 1: could have seen it in both of those ways simultaneously

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Speaker 1: without any sort of conflict between those concepts, which is

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Speaker 1: I think another reason that people have had trouble accepting

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Speaker 1: them as one or the other. Yeah, and it's some

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Speaker 1: of the same questions when we've talked about in the

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Speaker 1: United States um nagra and the repatriation of cultural objects

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Speaker 1: and human remains to indigenous nations, Like a lot of

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Speaker 1: those exact same questions are exist with all of these

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Speaker 1: pieces from the Kingdom of Benine. It's like, uh, this

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Speaker 1: is a cultural object that came from a kingdom. They

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Speaker 1: clearly belonged to that kingdom. Here in the US, there

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Speaker 1: is a lingal a legal framework has been written for

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Speaker 1: what to do, and with these particular pieces, some of

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Speaker 1: that is is sort of unanswered at this point, and

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Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that it has been a

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Speaker 1: long process. I'm not saying at all that Nagara has

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Speaker 1: made it an There's still a lot of a lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff that just takes forever to get through with Nagar.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that that like solved all of the issues,

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Speaker 1: but like it's a layer that has that makes the

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Speaker 1: the treatment a little different. These are always tricky because

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Speaker 1: there's no I mean you talked about there's no easy answer, Like,

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Speaker 1: there's no if you look at it with any level

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Speaker 1: of nuance, it only becomes more complex and more difficult. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is always the peril of of studying anything like this. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: and I think the thing that that can seem like

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Speaker 1: the most obvious option, which is like repatriate them to

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Speaker 1: the Kingdom of Benin. What does the Kingdom of Benin want? Like,

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Speaker 1: what does the current obe want? What will that person's

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Speaker 1: success or want? Like, There's still a bunch of stuff

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Speaker 1: to work through all of that. I'm sure we'll continue

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Speaker 1: to evolve significantly over the next years and even decades.

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Speaker 1: So if you'd like to send us a note about anything,

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Speaker 1: we're History Podcast at I heart radio dot com and

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