1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,836 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:19,436 --> 00:00:24,596 Speaker 2: Sometimes retrieving forgotten lives from the recesses of history feels 3 00:00:24,796 --> 00:00:28,396 Speaker 2: like magic, a kind of alchemy, like raising the dead. 4 00:00:29,436 --> 00:00:32,756 Speaker 2: Something that Halle and I often get asked making podcasts, 5 00:00:32,836 --> 00:00:35,796 Speaker 2: or in Halle's case, writing books about social history, is 6 00:00:36,516 --> 00:00:38,516 Speaker 2: how do you find all of this information out? 7 00:00:38,876 --> 00:00:39,596 Speaker 1: Where do you look? 8 00:00:40,156 --> 00:00:41,956 Speaker 3: How do you know where to start? 9 00:00:42,876 --> 00:00:46,676 Speaker 1: After spending nearly thirty years training and working as a historian, 10 00:00:47,116 --> 00:00:49,276 Speaker 1: some of what happens in the course of researching a 11 00:00:49,316 --> 00:00:53,596 Speaker 1: subject has for me started to feel instinctive. But there's 12 00:00:53,636 --> 00:00:56,356 Speaker 1: a method to all of this, a logical way of 13 00:00:56,396 --> 00:01:00,076 Speaker 1: putting the pieces together and of using sources to revive 14 00:01:00,356 --> 00:01:06,076 Speaker 1: lost stories. Researchers and historians are fundamentally detectives. What we 15 00:01:06,156 --> 00:01:09,076 Speaker 1: do in the archives and libraries can be absolutely through 16 00:01:09,876 --> 00:01:13,836 Speaker 1: holmesy and feats of discovery, chasing clues from one collection 17 00:01:13,916 --> 00:01:18,156 Speaker 1: to the next, sometimes across the country, sometimes across the world. 18 00:01:18,476 --> 00:01:21,196 Speaker 1: I've often said to people who love reading crime fiction 19 00:01:21,436 --> 00:01:26,396 Speaker 1: and murder mysteries that they would equally love being a historian, or, 20 00:01:26,676 --> 00:01:30,076 Speaker 1: as in the case of Kate Heally, a genealogist. 21 00:01:30,796 --> 00:01:33,756 Speaker 2: Reconstructing the lives of the women in this podcast series 22 00:01:33,836 --> 00:01:36,916 Speaker 2: has been an enormous task, and Kate's helped us with 23 00:01:36,956 --> 00:01:39,996 Speaker 2: that work. She's got over thirty years of experience in 24 00:01:40,036 --> 00:01:42,956 Speaker 2: the field of genealogy, and she assisted us by building 25 00:01:42,956 --> 00:01:45,836 Speaker 2: out the family trees of the victims of the Blackout Ripper, 26 00:01:46,156 --> 00:01:49,596 Speaker 2: as well as of Rachel Dobkin, Doris Staples, Kathleen Patmore, 27 00:01:49,636 --> 00:01:53,876 Speaker 2: and Marjorie Stevens, the wife of Gordon Cummins. Her expertise 28 00:01:54,036 --> 00:01:57,196 Speaker 2: has enriched our understanding of where these women came from 29 00:01:57,316 --> 00:02:00,836 Speaker 2: and of who they were. Today, Kate's joining us for 30 00:02:00,876 --> 00:02:03,876 Speaker 2: a special bonus episode of Bad Women to tell us 31 00:02:03,916 --> 00:02:07,876 Speaker 2: all about her work as a professional genealogist. Kate, Welcome 32 00:02:07,916 --> 00:02:10,916 Speaker 2: to the show. Hello, So, Kate, I wonder if you 33 00:02:10,956 --> 00:02:13,796 Speaker 2: can start by telling us what does a genealogist do 34 00:02:13,916 --> 00:02:14,596 Speaker 2: in a nutshell? 35 00:02:15,276 --> 00:02:19,316 Speaker 4: Well, the term genealogy is actually referring to the study 36 00:02:19,476 --> 00:02:23,836 Speaker 4: of lines of descent carried out for wealthy families to 37 00:02:24,036 --> 00:02:28,516 Speaker 4: establish inheritance of land or titles. But what we do 38 00:02:29,076 --> 00:02:32,756 Speaker 4: is more family history, and over the time the two 39 00:02:32,836 --> 00:02:36,756 Speaker 4: terms have become interchangeable. Some people use the analogy of 40 00:02:36,796 --> 00:02:40,476 Speaker 4: a tree. The branches of a tree are the family members, 41 00:02:41,076 --> 00:02:44,516 Speaker 4: and then you'll add the foliage for the information about 42 00:02:44,556 --> 00:02:47,236 Speaker 4: the family, what they did, their relations. 43 00:02:47,916 --> 00:02:52,356 Speaker 2: So essentially, you're gathering lots of raw data about when 44 00:02:52,396 --> 00:02:55,756 Speaker 2: and where people lived through their birth records, through their 45 00:02:55,796 --> 00:03:00,956 Speaker 2: marriage records, through their DEA certificates, and that's material that 46 00:03:01,036 --> 00:03:03,836 Speaker 2: we use on bad women. But Hallie, do you want 47 00:03:03,836 --> 00:03:06,716 Speaker 2: to talk a little bit about how genealogy and wider 48 00:03:06,876 --> 00:03:09,436 Speaker 2: historical context interact. 49 00:03:09,516 --> 00:03:13,436 Speaker 1: What Kate is doing is going and almost putting pins 50 00:03:13,476 --> 00:03:16,716 Speaker 1: in a map of places where we knew people were 51 00:03:17,236 --> 00:03:20,836 Speaker 1: all incidents in their lives and dates when we knew 52 00:03:20,876 --> 00:03:24,276 Speaker 1: things happened that turn up on the records, and then 53 00:03:24,356 --> 00:03:27,356 Speaker 1: you can fill in the blanks around that. And that's 54 00:03:27,876 --> 00:03:31,796 Speaker 1: I think where history and genealogy intersect and helped create 55 00:03:31,836 --> 00:03:35,956 Speaker 1: a much bigger picture. So, for example, Kate was fantastic 56 00:03:35,996 --> 00:03:39,156 Speaker 1: in helping us put together Evlyn Oakley story, and for 57 00:03:39,236 --> 00:03:41,476 Speaker 1: me personally, I found that one of the most emotive 58 00:03:41,556 --> 00:03:44,916 Speaker 1: stories from season two because we were able to come 59 00:03:44,996 --> 00:03:47,516 Speaker 1: up with so much information about not only her, but 60 00:03:47,636 --> 00:03:53,716 Speaker 1: her mother, Racina, and Rasina's experiences coming from Germany and 61 00:03:53,756 --> 00:03:57,676 Speaker 1: living in the UK and what it was like during 62 00:03:57,676 --> 00:03:59,516 Speaker 1: the First World War and how she lived with a 63 00:03:59,556 --> 00:04:03,556 Speaker 1: German community at a time when Germans were persecuted. There 64 00:04:03,636 --> 00:04:07,876 Speaker 1: was this upsurge in germanophobia and the butcher shop she 65 00:04:08,196 --> 00:04:12,836 Speaker 1: was living above was attacked. So we have a very 66 00:04:12,996 --> 00:04:18,436 Speaker 1: intimate understanding of where Evelyn came from and her mother's experiences, 67 00:04:18,556 --> 00:04:21,396 Speaker 1: So what she now just brings to it is fundamentally important. 68 00:04:21,436 --> 00:04:25,196 Speaker 1: It's the first step in reconstructing a life. 69 00:04:25,316 --> 00:04:27,956 Speaker 2: What we're saying is that that data we get through 70 00:04:27,996 --> 00:04:30,956 Speaker 2: genealogy about where people are born, where they live, who 71 00:04:30,956 --> 00:04:35,636 Speaker 2: they marry, where they work, together with wider context, those 72 00:04:35,636 --> 00:04:39,916 Speaker 2: are essentially complementary building blocks when it comes to creating 73 00:04:39,916 --> 00:04:43,156 Speaker 2: a historical narrative. And it strikes me that what we 74 00:04:43,316 --> 00:04:47,596 Speaker 2: don't see in those official records can also be important 75 00:04:47,716 --> 00:04:51,196 Speaker 2: and can also work alongside wider historical context to tell 76 00:04:51,276 --> 00:04:54,396 Speaker 2: us about a person. I think the example of Evelyn 77 00:04:54,476 --> 00:04:57,516 Speaker 2: Oely is a really poignant one. As you say, Hallie, 78 00:04:57,596 --> 00:05:00,836 Speaker 2: we know from the police reports and the witness statements 79 00:05:00,876 --> 00:05:04,636 Speaker 2: after she dies that she has this very full, very 80 00:05:04,756 --> 00:05:08,116 Speaker 2: animated life in London. She's got lots of friends, there 81 00:05:08,156 --> 00:05:10,716 Speaker 2: are clubs in barsh likes to go to, she works there, 82 00:05:10,756 --> 00:05:13,196 Speaker 2: she's got a client base. At one point she's allegedly 83 00:05:13,236 --> 00:05:16,436 Speaker 2: engaged to another man. If you look at the official 84 00:05:16,476 --> 00:05:19,796 Speaker 2: records of her life, none of that appears. If you 85 00:05:19,876 --> 00:05:22,676 Speaker 2: just looked at the nineteen thirty nine register, you would 86 00:05:22,716 --> 00:05:25,476 Speaker 2: think that she was a housewife living on a poultry 87 00:05:25,476 --> 00:05:28,196 Speaker 2: firm in a bungalow near Blackpool. So this is an 88 00:05:28,236 --> 00:05:31,796 Speaker 2: example of how we need sources beyond what those records 89 00:05:31,876 --> 00:05:34,236 Speaker 2: can tell us. In this case, it comes in the 90 00:05:34,236 --> 00:05:38,556 Speaker 2: form of witness testimony from her husband, Harold, and from friends, acquaintances, clients. 91 00:05:39,556 --> 00:05:41,436 Speaker 2: But the fact that none of that appears on the 92 00:05:41,476 --> 00:05:46,156 Speaker 2: official record, and the fact that also that life in 93 00:05:46,316 --> 00:05:50,836 Speaker 2: Soho is embedded in a particular type of counterculture, contributes 94 00:05:50,836 --> 00:05:54,036 Speaker 2: to the sense that she's keeping secrets, that she's hiding things, 95 00:05:54,076 --> 00:05:57,436 Speaker 2: that she's living a double life. And so when you 96 00:05:57,556 --> 00:06:00,276 Speaker 2: put all of that together, what we do know what 97 00:06:00,396 --> 00:06:04,156 Speaker 2: is officially recorded with what is flying under the radar, 98 00:06:04,716 --> 00:06:07,476 Speaker 2: her story almost becomes more than the summer of its parts. 99 00:06:08,116 --> 00:06:12,636 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, so very fortunate in Evelyn's case in that 100 00:06:12,716 --> 00:06:15,676 Speaker 1: we did have a lot of disparate sources to draw from. 101 00:06:15,796 --> 00:06:19,076 Speaker 1: And this is why people who were involved in crimes 102 00:06:19,316 --> 00:06:24,036 Speaker 1: are such brilliant material for historians, because there's press coverage, 103 00:06:24,156 --> 00:06:26,636 Speaker 1: and then there's a whole other layer of records, court 104 00:06:26,676 --> 00:06:29,036 Speaker 1: records and various criminal records and things like that. That 105 00:06:29,156 --> 00:06:31,756 Speaker 1: means that you can really dig into these people's lives. 106 00:06:31,756 --> 00:06:35,596 Speaker 1: There witness examinations and you can get intimate details of 107 00:06:35,716 --> 00:06:39,516 Speaker 1: what somebody was doing precisely, almost like every hour of 108 00:06:39,556 --> 00:06:42,276 Speaker 1: a particular day. And so with Evelyn, we had some 109 00:06:42,356 --> 00:06:45,116 Speaker 1: of that, We had newspaper reports, and that really means 110 00:06:45,116 --> 00:06:47,956 Speaker 1: that we can piece together that life. But in many cases, 111 00:06:48,236 --> 00:06:52,116 Speaker 1: you get glimpses into lives and then that's it. It's 112 00:06:52,156 --> 00:06:55,356 Speaker 1: like this window opens and then it shuts again, and 113 00:06:55,396 --> 00:06:58,276 Speaker 1: you have a partial bit of a life, and it 114 00:06:58,356 --> 00:07:00,716 Speaker 1: makes you wonder and it makes you think, and it 115 00:07:00,756 --> 00:07:03,636 Speaker 1: makes you desperately want to know more. Why did that 116 00:07:03,676 --> 00:07:06,636 Speaker 1: person immigrate, Why did that person marry that person? Why 117 00:07:06,636 --> 00:07:09,036 Speaker 1: did that person walk out on that person? And sometimes 118 00:07:09,036 --> 00:07:12,676 Speaker 1: we don't have the answers, and that can be as 119 00:07:13,236 --> 00:07:15,596 Speaker 1: scintillating as actually even finding them. 120 00:07:16,276 --> 00:07:19,156 Speaker 2: And as you mentioned earlier, Halle, part of the appeal 121 00:07:19,276 --> 00:07:22,356 Speaker 2: of historical research is for both of us. I think 122 00:07:22,396 --> 00:07:25,916 Speaker 2: that element of detective work of getting those glimpses and 123 00:07:25,956 --> 00:07:28,676 Speaker 2: then seeing what you can work out about what went 124 00:07:28,716 --> 00:07:31,276 Speaker 2: on in their life in between following the clues. 125 00:07:31,676 --> 00:07:33,596 Speaker 3: Kate, what's the appeal for you. 126 00:07:33,596 --> 00:07:36,876 Speaker 2: Of genealogical research and how did you get into genealogy. 127 00:07:37,236 --> 00:07:39,596 Speaker 4: Well, I first got into it when I was a 128 00:07:39,716 --> 00:07:43,876 Speaker 4: child and my mum's family came from Scotland, although she 129 00:07:43,956 --> 00:07:47,836 Speaker 4: was raised in England, and my mum inherited my great 130 00:07:47,836 --> 00:07:52,396 Speaker 4: granddad's World War One medals, and that led me to 131 00:07:52,916 --> 00:07:55,556 Speaker 4: want to learn more about him and more about the 132 00:07:55,556 --> 00:07:59,276 Speaker 4: Scottish side of the family, and so I then embarked 133 00:07:59,276 --> 00:08:01,676 Speaker 4: on a quest to try and find out about that 134 00:08:01,796 --> 00:08:02,636 Speaker 4: side of the family. 135 00:08:03,636 --> 00:08:06,396 Speaker 2: A lot of genealogical research can be done online now, 136 00:08:06,436 --> 00:08:09,116 Speaker 2: But you were going to physical archives, weren't you. 137 00:08:09,636 --> 00:08:13,196 Speaker 4: Now a lot of it is online and it's amazingly useful. 138 00:08:13,276 --> 00:08:16,756 Speaker 4: You can do a lot of it from your living room. Yes, 139 00:08:16,796 --> 00:08:21,196 Speaker 4: But then it was visiting local or national archives to 140 00:08:21,316 --> 00:08:26,276 Speaker 4: dig out records and to view original certificates and censuses 141 00:08:26,756 --> 00:08:28,076 Speaker 4: to find the information. 142 00:08:28,276 --> 00:08:29,396 Speaker 3: And what was that like for you? 143 00:08:29,476 --> 00:08:31,956 Speaker 2: Going and routing around in libraries and archives. 144 00:08:32,876 --> 00:08:35,596 Speaker 4: It is fascinating, but it can also be quite daunting 145 00:08:35,676 --> 00:08:39,516 Speaker 4: and intimidating. A lot of the archives have now moved 146 00:08:39,556 --> 00:08:42,796 Speaker 4: to more modern family history centers as the hobby has 147 00:08:42,956 --> 00:08:46,316 Speaker 4: become a lot more popular. But many years ago they 148 00:08:46,396 --> 00:08:49,996 Speaker 4: were dusty, old archives and you can imagine someone behind 149 00:08:50,036 --> 00:08:52,116 Speaker 4: the desk saying, yes, what do you want? And you 150 00:08:52,276 --> 00:08:56,596 Speaker 4: feel quite intimidated by all these big old documents around you. 151 00:08:57,036 --> 00:09:00,436 Speaker 4: But now it is so much more welcoming and there's 152 00:09:00,516 --> 00:09:01,716 Speaker 4: often people to help you. 153 00:09:01,996 --> 00:09:04,876 Speaker 2: And what did you find out about your family in Scotland? 154 00:09:05,076 --> 00:09:09,876 Speaker 4: One branch that was quite surprising My great great father 155 00:09:10,636 --> 00:09:13,596 Speaker 4: he was a fisherman in a little village and I 156 00:09:13,836 --> 00:09:17,956 Speaker 4: discovered that he drowned at sea. There was a hurricane 157 00:09:18,036 --> 00:09:21,796 Speaker 4: and the boat overturned and that left my great great grandmother, 158 00:09:21,996 --> 00:09:24,916 Speaker 4: a widow with a five year old, and my great 159 00:09:24,916 --> 00:09:28,796 Speaker 4: grandmother who was one, and it just makes you feel 160 00:09:29,156 --> 00:09:33,156 Speaker 4: so sad and want to find out how they survived. 161 00:09:33,276 --> 00:09:36,836 Speaker 4: And because it was such a small village that everybody 162 00:09:37,036 --> 00:09:40,636 Speaker 4: was related to each other and intermarried, and so it 163 00:09:40,676 --> 00:09:45,316 Speaker 4: would have impacted the whole community, and in fact, ten 164 00:09:45,396 --> 00:09:48,676 Speaker 4: years after another huge hurricane killed a lot more. 165 00:09:48,836 --> 00:09:50,356 Speaker 3: It gives a huge sense of perspective. 166 00:09:50,436 --> 00:09:54,116 Speaker 4: Well, it certainly does. The cottages that my great grandparents 167 00:09:54,156 --> 00:09:57,876 Speaker 4: lived in, the little fisherman's cottages and now actually holiday lets. 168 00:09:58,476 --> 00:10:02,916 Speaker 4: So we went and visited and stayed in there, and 169 00:10:02,956 --> 00:10:06,156 Speaker 4: now of course they're nice and centrally heated, but you 170 00:10:06,196 --> 00:10:09,716 Speaker 4: can imagine the coal fire and come in a home 171 00:10:09,836 --> 00:10:12,996 Speaker 4: from a fishing trip, all wet and dripping and all 172 00:10:13,116 --> 00:10:16,236 Speaker 4: living in practically one room. It does bring it home 173 00:10:16,436 --> 00:10:17,716 Speaker 4: how easily we have it now. 174 00:10:17,916 --> 00:10:21,076 Speaker 2: So what was there quite small home that they worked 175 00:10:21,076 --> 00:10:23,316 Speaker 2: really hard to have and we're probably quite proud of, 176 00:10:23,636 --> 00:10:26,796 Speaker 2: has now become a leisure space basically, which shows us 177 00:10:26,876 --> 00:10:28,196 Speaker 2: how much society has changed. 178 00:10:28,276 --> 00:10:28,596 Speaker 3: That's it. 179 00:10:28,796 --> 00:10:31,116 Speaker 4: You know, when they're with my children, they're playing on 180 00:10:31,156 --> 00:10:33,796 Speaker 4: the rocks that were the danger to the fishermen that 181 00:10:34,036 --> 00:10:34,516 Speaker 4: fished there. 182 00:10:34,996 --> 00:10:37,716 Speaker 2: Doing a piece of historical research is really like solving 183 00:10:37,756 --> 00:10:41,316 Speaker 2: a puzzle that sort of gradually reveals itself. You're moving 184 00:10:41,356 --> 00:10:43,836 Speaker 2: the pieces, you're trying solutions out, and the more clues 185 00:10:43,916 --> 00:10:45,516 Speaker 2: you gather, the more dark. 186 00:10:45,356 --> 00:10:47,236 Speaker 3: Suggesting themselves to you. In a sense. 187 00:10:47,476 --> 00:10:51,716 Speaker 2: Just thinking of an example again from Evelynotly's story, you 188 00:10:51,876 --> 00:10:56,956 Speaker 2: identified in the census Kate that Walter Judd was absent 189 00:10:57,396 --> 00:11:00,476 Speaker 2: in nineteen eleven, Walter Judd being Evelynoatly's father. 190 00:11:01,196 --> 00:11:02,996 Speaker 4: No we couldn't find him at all on these on 191 00:11:03,076 --> 00:11:05,476 Speaker 4: the census. I did manage to find him on an 192 00:11:05,756 --> 00:11:08,756 Speaker 4: electoral register the year before, so we assume he's in 193 00:11:08,756 --> 00:11:13,796 Speaker 4: the but it could be that he was sleeping rough 194 00:11:13,836 --> 00:11:17,276 Speaker 4: that night, or he was maybe in prison. What happens 195 00:11:17,396 --> 00:11:20,756 Speaker 4: quite often is it has been mistranscribed and just can't 196 00:11:20,756 --> 00:11:22,796 Speaker 4: be found because his name's been put down wrong. 197 00:11:23,876 --> 00:11:27,196 Speaker 2: I think what was curious at the same time was 198 00:11:27,236 --> 00:11:32,036 Speaker 2: that whilst Walter Judd was absent and couldn't be found, 199 00:11:32,156 --> 00:11:36,116 Speaker 2: his wife Rosina and their two young children, Herman aged 200 00:11:36,236 --> 00:11:40,436 Speaker 2: roughly five, and Evelyn, aged roughly three, were all living apart. 201 00:11:41,196 --> 00:11:44,516 Speaker 2: So Rosina was working for a German butcher, and Herman 202 00:11:44,516 --> 00:11:47,756 Speaker 2: and Evelyn were boarding out, which means they were being fostered. 203 00:11:48,836 --> 00:11:52,516 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true. I managed to find Evelyn first living 204 00:11:52,556 --> 00:11:55,556 Speaker 4: with another family boarding out as you say, and then 205 00:11:55,596 --> 00:11:59,356 Speaker 4: I discovered her brother was with her as well. But 206 00:11:59,396 --> 00:12:01,756 Speaker 4: then of course that raises the question where's her mother, 207 00:12:01,996 --> 00:12:04,236 Speaker 4: And it did take me a bit of digging to 208 00:12:04,556 --> 00:12:09,596 Speaker 4: find her mother. She was again mistranscribed as rise jud 209 00:12:09,756 --> 00:12:12,796 Speaker 4: But with the knowledge now that she was from Germany, 210 00:12:12,836 --> 00:12:16,676 Speaker 4: we could be quite content that we'd got the correct person. 211 00:12:16,796 --> 00:12:20,676 Speaker 4: But yeah, it was quite surprising to find her away 212 00:12:20,676 --> 00:12:24,676 Speaker 4: from her children, obviously trying to make ends meet, working 213 00:12:25,356 --> 00:12:29,516 Speaker 4: for another family, and having to put her children out 214 00:12:29,796 --> 00:12:30,516 Speaker 4: to fostering. 215 00:12:32,236 --> 00:12:34,636 Speaker 2: I got a bit hooked on this mystery, actually wondering 216 00:12:34,956 --> 00:12:37,596 Speaker 2: what circumstances could have given rise to this. How have 217 00:12:37,676 --> 00:12:41,156 Speaker 2: we ended up with this absent father, this mother living 218 00:12:41,156 --> 00:12:43,836 Speaker 2: a few streets away from her children working and then 219 00:12:43,836 --> 00:12:46,676 Speaker 2: these children living with another family. And as you say, 220 00:12:46,756 --> 00:12:48,956 Speaker 2: there was no sign of Walter anywhere on the official 221 00:12:48,996 --> 00:12:51,716 Speaker 2: records at that point. In compliment to your work, Kate, 222 00:12:51,796 --> 00:12:55,076 Speaker 2: I started digging around in the newspaper archives looking for 223 00:12:55,156 --> 00:13:00,196 Speaker 2: Walter and found that before he had his children, he'd 224 00:13:00,236 --> 00:13:03,556 Speaker 2: been involved in strikes. So the taxiles industry is very 225 00:13:03,556 --> 00:13:06,436 Speaker 2: big in the local area. There were strikes over pay 226 00:13:06,476 --> 00:13:09,756 Speaker 2: and working conditions, and in the late nineteen hundred Walter 227 00:13:09,916 --> 00:13:13,076 Speaker 2: was named in an article as participating, and he actually 228 00:13:13,276 --> 00:13:16,316 Speaker 2: got a conviction for doing some damage to someone's property. 229 00:13:16,436 --> 00:13:17,796 Speaker 2: You know, that doesn't tell us where he is in 230 00:13:17,876 --> 00:13:20,156 Speaker 2: nineteen eleven. But then we start to build out a 231 00:13:20,156 --> 00:13:22,756 Speaker 2: bit of a profile of Walter, he starts to seem 232 00:13:22,996 --> 00:13:24,876 Speaker 2: like a bit of a rabble rouser, could he be 233 00:13:25,116 --> 00:13:28,356 Speaker 2: a bit of a troublemaker? You wonder what impact that 234 00:13:28,556 --> 00:13:31,756 Speaker 2: conviction could have had on him, his work prospects, his employment, 235 00:13:31,956 --> 00:13:34,916 Speaker 2: things like that. Then off the back of that article, 236 00:13:34,996 --> 00:13:37,876 Speaker 2: I found a second article which said he'd actually threatened 237 00:13:37,876 --> 00:13:40,836 Speaker 2: a local landlady. He'd threatened to cut her throat, and 238 00:13:40,876 --> 00:13:44,116 Speaker 2: he used other abusive language towards her. He'd been drinking. 239 00:13:44,596 --> 00:13:47,236 Speaker 2: And here in this article we learn that he's got 240 00:13:47,316 --> 00:13:51,676 Speaker 2: eight previous convictions, and that starts to cast what seemed 241 00:13:51,716 --> 00:13:55,596 Speaker 2: like just rebellious behavior in a slightly different light. Now 242 00:13:55,676 --> 00:13:57,596 Speaker 2: he's not just a rabbel rouser. There seems to be 243 00:13:57,636 --> 00:14:00,876 Speaker 2: something a bit darker to him. There's violence. Is he 244 00:14:00,996 --> 00:14:03,356 Speaker 2: violent towards his family? And so Kate, You and I 245 00:14:03,436 --> 00:14:05,396 Speaker 2: discussed that, and we wondered if maybe he could be 246 00:14:05,476 --> 00:14:08,596 Speaker 2: in prison at the time of the nineteen eleven census 247 00:14:08,636 --> 00:14:11,316 Speaker 2: and looked at the records, couldn't find him. But then 248 00:14:11,396 --> 00:14:14,916 Speaker 2: a third article from nineteen ten starts to illuminate the 249 00:14:14,956 --> 00:14:19,196 Speaker 2: picture even more. Rosina Weber, his wife, Evelyn's mother, has 250 00:14:19,276 --> 00:14:22,876 Speaker 2: summoned Walter to court for a separation order. He's again absent, 251 00:14:22,996 --> 00:14:26,356 Speaker 2: but we learned there that he's incredibly difficult to live with. 252 00:14:26,676 --> 00:14:29,396 Speaker 2: He's stolen a truck and sold it. He's routinely out 253 00:14:29,396 --> 00:14:32,316 Speaker 2: of work, and Rosina is so desperate that she lays 254 00:14:32,316 --> 00:14:36,516 Speaker 2: out this plan that we then see materialize in nineteen eleven. 255 00:14:36,596 --> 00:14:38,476 Speaker 2: Her plan is that she will get a job and 256 00:14:38,516 --> 00:14:41,596 Speaker 2: her children will go into fostercare because she cannot live 257 00:14:41,636 --> 00:14:44,476 Speaker 2: with her husband anymore. He's not holding up his end 258 00:14:44,516 --> 00:14:46,636 Speaker 2: of the bargain. He's not being the breadwinner he's supposed 259 00:14:46,676 --> 00:14:48,716 Speaker 2: to be. And so, no, we still don't know where 260 00:14:48,716 --> 00:14:51,716 Speaker 2: he is in nineteen eleven. But by building a profile 261 00:14:51,796 --> 00:14:54,116 Speaker 2: of him and by following those clues, we've been able 262 00:14:54,116 --> 00:14:56,476 Speaker 2: to elucidate a bit more of the picture of what's 263 00:14:56,516 --> 00:14:58,956 Speaker 2: going on with this family. With this type of research, 264 00:14:58,996 --> 00:15:03,116 Speaker 2: you begin with what feels like these infinite narrative branches. 265 00:15:03,276 --> 00:15:05,876 Speaker 2: Is Walter abroad, who knows what's happened? But you know, 266 00:15:05,916 --> 00:15:08,636 Speaker 2: the more research you do, the more those branches start 267 00:15:08,756 --> 00:15:11,556 Speaker 2: to Now, I just wonder what both of your experiences 268 00:15:11,636 --> 00:15:12,236 Speaker 2: are of this. 269 00:15:12,196 --> 00:15:13,796 Speaker 3: Hallie, can you talk about that at all? 270 00:15:13,916 --> 00:15:15,996 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, You know, when you start out one of 271 00:15:16,076 --> 00:15:18,756 Speaker 1: these journeys, you never know what you're going to find 272 00:15:19,116 --> 00:15:22,636 Speaker 1: and what you're describing. I have gone through countless times, 273 00:15:22,676 --> 00:15:25,356 Speaker 1: and I'm sure Kate has even more. For example, trying 274 00:15:25,356 --> 00:15:29,876 Speaker 1: to eliminate somebody from the record, referring back to season 275 00:15:29,916 --> 00:15:34,836 Speaker 1: one when I was researching Annie Chapman's family and George Smith. 276 00:15:34,996 --> 00:15:38,636 Speaker 1: Can you think of a name more common than George Smith? 277 00:15:38,716 --> 00:15:40,836 Speaker 1: Trying to find a George Smith in the record. 278 00:15:40,956 --> 00:15:42,836 Speaker 2: So in season one we were looking at the lives 279 00:15:42,836 --> 00:15:44,996 Speaker 2: of the victims of Jack the Ripper, and of course 280 00:15:45,036 --> 00:15:48,956 Speaker 2: Annie Chapman was Jack rippers second victims, had a very 281 00:15:48,956 --> 00:15:51,836 Speaker 2: full life before she became docktrippers second victim, and George 282 00:15:51,836 --> 00:15:54,916 Speaker 2: Smith was her father, so she began life as Annie Smith. Yes, 283 00:15:55,036 --> 00:15:56,236 Speaker 2: also a very common. 284 00:15:56,036 --> 00:15:59,036 Speaker 1: Name, that's right, absolutely, And in fact, looking for George 285 00:15:59,036 --> 00:16:01,596 Speaker 1: Smith was difficult. But what did help was that he 286 00:16:01,716 --> 00:16:03,876 Speaker 1: was in the army, so we could find army records. 287 00:16:03,916 --> 00:16:05,916 Speaker 1: But you had to look through everything and then narrow 288 00:16:05,956 --> 00:16:07,916 Speaker 1: it down and narrow it down. The thing is, then 289 00:16:07,956 --> 00:16:11,716 Speaker 1: once you've got a purchase on a bit of information 290 00:16:11,756 --> 00:16:16,156 Speaker 1: which you know is pretty much water tight, then that 291 00:16:16,196 --> 00:16:19,836 Speaker 1: can open other doors for you. We know, according to 292 00:16:19,876 --> 00:16:24,876 Speaker 1: an article that appeared written allegedly by Annie Chapman's sister. 293 00:16:25,036 --> 00:16:28,156 Speaker 1: After her death, she gave a number of details about 294 00:16:28,276 --> 00:16:30,756 Speaker 1: their childhood, and one of the details she gave was, 295 00:16:31,156 --> 00:16:34,876 Speaker 1: our father committed suicide by cutting his throat. God, that's 296 00:16:34,956 --> 00:16:37,676 Speaker 1: really that's awful. That's got to appear in the record somewhere. 297 00:16:37,676 --> 00:16:41,156 Speaker 1: And of course we couldn't find, well whatever reason, a 298 00:16:41,356 --> 00:16:45,676 Speaker 1: death certificate or any death registration for George Smith. But 299 00:16:45,796 --> 00:16:50,756 Speaker 1: eventually what I did find was a small news item 300 00:16:51,236 --> 00:16:55,436 Speaker 1: which opened up a whole story surrounding his death, which 301 00:16:56,076 --> 00:16:59,756 Speaker 1: was truly shocking and sad. That he was working as 302 00:16:59,876 --> 00:17:03,636 Speaker 1: a gentleman's valet in Wales. He was traveling with this 303 00:17:03,916 --> 00:17:06,516 Speaker 1: man he was working for in a particular regiment, and 304 00:17:07,076 --> 00:17:09,876 Speaker 1: he cut his throat one morning, and it was in 305 00:17:09,876 --> 00:17:13,116 Speaker 1: the newspaper. It was a little tiny article in the newspaper. 306 00:17:13,276 --> 00:17:17,316 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's just extraordinary. And that was obviously 307 00:17:17,316 --> 00:17:19,996 Speaker 1: the right George. That was George Smith. So these little 308 00:17:20,036 --> 00:17:24,836 Speaker 1: bits come together. Newspapers are very useful that sometimes they're unreliable, 309 00:17:24,876 --> 00:17:27,396 Speaker 1: but they are incredibly useful for the historian. 310 00:17:28,716 --> 00:17:31,356 Speaker 2: You're listening to a bonus episode of Bad Women, all 311 00:17:31,396 --> 00:17:37,876 Speaker 2: about genealogy. We'll be back after this short break. Okay, 312 00:17:38,156 --> 00:17:39,996 Speaker 2: what about you if you need to find a needle 313 00:17:40,036 --> 00:17:42,356 Speaker 2: in a haystack? How do you embark on that type 314 00:17:42,356 --> 00:17:45,036 Speaker 2: of research project? Where'd you begin looking for a person? 315 00:17:45,396 --> 00:17:47,876 Speaker 4: Going back to Walter Judd, it was only later that 316 00:17:47,916 --> 00:17:51,916 Speaker 4: we've managed to discover his character. When I started to 317 00:17:51,996 --> 00:17:55,196 Speaker 4: research him, one of the first things I came across 318 00:17:55,316 --> 00:18:00,116 Speaker 4: was his pension records that stated that he'd been injured 319 00:18:00,276 --> 00:18:02,596 Speaker 4: in World War One. It actually suffered a gunshot wound 320 00:18:02,596 --> 00:18:06,356 Speaker 4: to the arm. You start then to think, oh, poor Walter. 321 00:18:06,476 --> 00:18:08,596 Speaker 4: When he couldn't be found in some of the records, 322 00:18:08,596 --> 00:18:11,796 Speaker 4: you think maybe he's suffering. So you're feeling sorry for 323 00:18:11,836 --> 00:18:15,076 Speaker 4: the man, and coming from a military background myself, knowing 324 00:18:15,396 --> 00:18:18,916 Speaker 4: people who've suffered, you know, post traumatic stress and gone 325 00:18:18,916 --> 00:18:22,276 Speaker 4: through hard times. It was only later that you then 326 00:18:22,596 --> 00:18:25,596 Speaker 4: discover a bit more about his character and you think, ah, yes, 327 00:18:25,636 --> 00:18:30,116 Speaker 4: well he was troubled before the war and court martialed 328 00:18:30,156 --> 00:18:33,556 Speaker 4: as well. So it just shows that you really do 329 00:18:33,636 --> 00:18:36,956 Speaker 4: have to use lots of different sources to build out 330 00:18:37,076 --> 00:18:39,796 Speaker 4: a picture of the person and a family and not 331 00:18:39,916 --> 00:18:41,236 Speaker 4: just rely on one sort. 332 00:18:41,916 --> 00:18:45,516 Speaker 2: The census, though, can be an absolute treasure trove, can't. 333 00:18:45,516 --> 00:18:48,236 Speaker 2: It's the official survey of population, and in Britain and 334 00:18:48,276 --> 00:18:50,756 Speaker 2: the US it's taken every ten years. It's a good 335 00:18:50,796 --> 00:18:53,476 Speaker 2: starting point, isn't it. So what can the census reveal? 336 00:18:53,556 --> 00:18:53,796 Speaker 1: Kate? 337 00:18:54,636 --> 00:18:57,276 Speaker 4: Yes, well, I love censuses because they are great. 338 00:18:57,476 --> 00:19:00,076 Speaker 1: I love them too, Kate, that's something we share. They 339 00:19:00,076 --> 00:19:01,316 Speaker 1: are amazing, aren't they. Oh? 340 00:19:01,436 --> 00:19:02,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, they are. 341 00:19:02,476 --> 00:19:07,156 Speaker 4: They are a snapshot of one night every ten years. 342 00:19:07,556 --> 00:19:10,036 Speaker 4: But the amount of information you can get just from that, 343 00:19:10,396 --> 00:19:14,036 Speaker 4: it is amazing. Who's in the family, what children they have, 344 00:19:14,876 --> 00:19:18,236 Speaker 4: and then when you move on ten years, if children 345 00:19:18,236 --> 00:19:20,756 Speaker 4: are missing, what's happened to those children? Have they died 346 00:19:20,996 --> 00:19:23,476 Speaker 4: or if one of the spouses has died, we can 347 00:19:23,556 --> 00:19:26,676 Speaker 4: go to look for their death record. And then quite often, 348 00:19:27,396 --> 00:19:30,636 Speaker 4: certainly it's happened in my family that I've discovered a 349 00:19:30,756 --> 00:19:34,036 Speaker 4: complete new branch of a family because there's a border 350 00:19:34,676 --> 00:19:37,116 Speaker 4: staying with them with a name that I've not come 351 00:19:37,156 --> 00:19:39,436 Speaker 4: across before. But if you dig into them, they might 352 00:19:39,476 --> 00:19:42,676 Speaker 4: actually be a cousin or an uncle, and that can 353 00:19:42,756 --> 00:19:46,756 Speaker 4: lead you in a completely different branch of the tree. 354 00:19:47,436 --> 00:19:49,076 Speaker 3: Hally, what about you, Why do you love the census? 355 00:19:49,076 --> 00:19:51,156 Speaker 1: Oh? My gosh, I love the census so much because 356 00:19:51,196 --> 00:19:54,516 Speaker 1: I think at first glance to the untrained eye, the 357 00:19:54,596 --> 00:19:56,956 Speaker 1: census is just what is this? This is somebody's name, 358 00:19:57,356 --> 00:19:59,636 Speaker 1: and what is this telling me? But as a historian, 359 00:19:59,676 --> 00:20:02,036 Speaker 1: it has you so much that you can just unpack 360 00:20:02,116 --> 00:20:05,596 Speaker 1: and unpack and unpack, and then with every bit that 361 00:20:05,676 --> 00:20:08,436 Speaker 1: you take out of the census, you can build onto that. 362 00:20:08,516 --> 00:20:12,076 Speaker 1: So they're asking for everybody who lives at a particular 363 00:20:12,236 --> 00:20:15,436 Speaker 1: address or in a particular building, who the head of 364 00:20:15,476 --> 00:20:18,956 Speaker 1: the family is, all of the names, where they're from, 365 00:20:19,476 --> 00:20:22,916 Speaker 1: what their occupations are, how old they are, if they're married, 366 00:20:22,996 --> 00:20:26,116 Speaker 1: if they're single, if they're widowed, and sometimes other bits 367 00:20:26,116 --> 00:20:29,396 Speaker 1: of information creep in as well. It depends who the 368 00:20:29,516 --> 00:20:31,836 Speaker 1: enumerator is. And sometimes and I've come across as census 369 00:20:31,916 --> 00:20:35,036 Speaker 1: and is the Jackson family? And somebody had written in 370 00:20:35,236 --> 00:20:38,676 Speaker 1: scrawled into the margin miss Jackson did not sleep at 371 00:20:38,676 --> 00:20:41,196 Speaker 1: home last night, And you think, oh, my goodness, what 372 00:20:41,236 --> 00:20:44,756 Speaker 1: was that about? Something happened there. But the amazing thing 373 00:20:44,796 --> 00:20:47,436 Speaker 1: about the census is it's not just the family you're 374 00:20:47,436 --> 00:20:51,076 Speaker 1: looking at, but it's also who lives around these people. 375 00:20:51,436 --> 00:20:53,716 Speaker 1: So what type of house are they living in, who 376 00:20:53,716 --> 00:20:55,316 Speaker 1: are the people who live next door to them, who 377 00:20:55,356 --> 00:20:57,756 Speaker 1: live upstairs from them, what do they do gives you 378 00:20:57,836 --> 00:21:00,916 Speaker 1: a sense of a social class. And then again, one 379 00:21:00,916 --> 00:21:03,876 Speaker 1: of the fascinating things about the census is that you 380 00:21:03,956 --> 00:21:07,836 Speaker 1: can actually overlay this information onto a map, both contemporary 381 00:21:07,876 --> 00:21:10,636 Speaker 1: maps and also modern map. So to be able to 382 00:21:10,716 --> 00:21:13,676 Speaker 1: see the type of neighborhood that somebody lived in and 383 00:21:13,756 --> 00:21:15,956 Speaker 1: the type of neighbors they had, and what the surroundings 384 00:21:15,956 --> 00:21:20,956 Speaker 1: were like is really important in understanding what their lives 385 00:21:21,436 --> 00:21:24,676 Speaker 1: would have been like, what were the local shops like, 386 00:21:24,836 --> 00:21:27,916 Speaker 1: how crime ridden was it? And so again you're getting 387 00:21:27,956 --> 00:21:32,196 Speaker 1: this layering effect, and all of this the census is 388 00:21:32,316 --> 00:21:34,476 Speaker 1: the starting point. You just grow it and grow it. 389 00:21:34,756 --> 00:21:36,756 Speaker 1: You get this tremendous picture. 390 00:21:37,396 --> 00:21:41,836 Speaker 2: And sometimes people can inadvertently reveal things about themselves, can't 391 00:21:41,836 --> 00:21:43,876 Speaker 2: they in the way they choose to make entries in 392 00:21:43,956 --> 00:21:46,876 Speaker 2: the census. I'm thinking of again another example pertaining to 393 00:21:46,876 --> 00:21:51,316 Speaker 2: Annie Chapman from season one, when her husband describes himself 394 00:21:51,356 --> 00:21:54,676 Speaker 2: on the census as a coachman and she describes him 395 00:21:54,716 --> 00:21:57,996 Speaker 2: as a stud groom, which is a slightly strier ranking class. 396 00:21:58,036 --> 00:21:59,196 Speaker 3: Do talk a little bit about that. 397 00:21:59,556 --> 00:22:02,516 Speaker 1: You know, if you're looking with a historian zie, you're 398 00:22:02,556 --> 00:22:06,396 Speaker 1: looking for nuance, And that is a perfect example of that, 399 00:22:06,636 --> 00:22:10,476 Speaker 1: so John, her husband, who were at Saint Leonard's Hill 400 00:22:10,516 --> 00:22:12,556 Speaker 1: where he worked at that time when the census was 401 00:22:12,596 --> 00:22:16,716 Speaker 1: being taken. He told the enumerator that his title was coachman. 402 00:22:16,876 --> 00:22:20,236 Speaker 1: And Annie Chapman was at that point staying with her 403 00:22:20,276 --> 00:22:23,436 Speaker 1: mother in London when the enumertor came round and said 404 00:22:23,476 --> 00:22:26,196 Speaker 1: that her husband was a stud groom, and a studgroom 405 00:22:26,836 --> 00:22:31,116 Speaker 1: held a very esteemed position within a gentleman's house in 406 00:22:31,156 --> 00:22:35,836 Speaker 1: the countryside because he managed the racing stock, and he 407 00:22:35,876 --> 00:22:39,676 Speaker 1: would have had a relatively intimate relationship with the master 408 00:22:39,796 --> 00:22:42,156 Speaker 1: of the house, which would have put him in a 409 00:22:42,196 --> 00:22:46,156 Speaker 1: position above many other servants. This disparity is very interesting 410 00:22:46,196 --> 00:22:51,076 Speaker 1: because it shows aspiration and it shows how Annie saw 411 00:22:51,116 --> 00:22:54,076 Speaker 1: her life and saw her husband and how he saw 412 00:22:54,196 --> 00:22:56,356 Speaker 1: the realities of his life, and it makes you wonder 413 00:22:56,396 --> 00:22:58,236 Speaker 1: what was really going on there. There was a lot 414 00:22:58,276 --> 00:23:01,876 Speaker 1: of middle class aspiration, that's for sure, but it's very intriguing. 415 00:23:02,436 --> 00:23:05,516 Speaker 2: So even on a document like the census that appears 416 00:23:05,596 --> 00:23:08,436 Speaker 2: to be quite black and white, there are things we 417 00:23:08,476 --> 00:23:09,716 Speaker 2: can read between the lines. 418 00:23:09,956 --> 00:23:11,796 Speaker 1: There's a lot we can read between the lines, and 419 00:23:11,836 --> 00:23:13,636 Speaker 1: that's one of the joys of it. And in fact, 420 00:23:13,676 --> 00:23:17,396 Speaker 1: every time you look at a source, it answers questions, 421 00:23:17,436 --> 00:23:20,796 Speaker 1: but it asks further questions. This is what I mean 422 00:23:20,796 --> 00:23:24,116 Speaker 1: by a sort of Holmesy and Chase. It's uncovering clues 423 00:23:24,356 --> 00:23:27,516 Speaker 1: and you're finding stuff that you didn't know about, and 424 00:23:27,556 --> 00:23:30,156 Speaker 1: then you have to answer those questions, which leads you 425 00:23:30,196 --> 00:23:30,956 Speaker 1: somewhere else. 426 00:23:31,276 --> 00:23:33,996 Speaker 2: And you actually, again, thinking of season one, you made 427 00:23:33,996 --> 00:23:36,836 Speaker 2: some really quite surprising discoveries. Didn't you that if we 428 00:23:36,996 --> 00:23:40,036 Speaker 2: just heeded the census might not have been apparent? 429 00:23:40,676 --> 00:23:41,036 Speaker 3: Yeah? 430 00:23:41,076 --> 00:23:45,196 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And this again came from that same letter about 431 00:23:45,236 --> 00:23:48,196 Speaker 1: Annie's childhood and her background. One of the things that 432 00:23:48,236 --> 00:23:52,236 Speaker 1: her sister said was effectively that she went into a 433 00:23:52,316 --> 00:23:56,156 Speaker 1: rehab center because she was an alcoholic. I thought, God, 434 00:23:56,276 --> 00:24:00,396 Speaker 1: that's really amazing. This was in the mid eighteen eighties, 435 00:24:00,636 --> 00:24:03,636 Speaker 1: and I started researching, well, where were these places? How 436 00:24:03,676 --> 00:24:07,076 Speaker 1: many were there? And I created a list and narrowed 437 00:24:07,116 --> 00:24:10,996 Speaker 1: it down. Can see to about a handful I think 438 00:24:11,036 --> 00:24:13,996 Speaker 1: maybe three that she could have been at. And then 439 00:24:14,036 --> 00:24:18,076 Speaker 1: I traced the records for a Spelthorne sanatorium to a 440 00:24:18,116 --> 00:24:22,356 Speaker 1: convent of Protestant nuns just outside of Oxford, and thought, 441 00:24:22,396 --> 00:24:25,076 Speaker 1: I'll just get in touch and let's see what that 442 00:24:25,196 --> 00:24:28,636 Speaker 1: turns up and remarkably, one of the sisters got back 443 00:24:28,636 --> 00:24:31,476 Speaker 1: to me and she said, we do have these uncataloged 444 00:24:31,676 --> 00:24:34,716 Speaker 1: log books from the time. Do you want to come 445 00:24:34,756 --> 00:24:37,236 Speaker 1: and have a look at them? And I thought, oh God, yeah, 446 00:24:37,276 --> 00:24:40,676 Speaker 1: of course. And I remember that day going out. It 447 00:24:40,716 --> 00:24:43,076 Speaker 1: was a beautiful summer's day, driving out into the countryside 448 00:24:43,076 --> 00:24:46,956 Speaker 1: with swaying poppies and big butterflies, and going to this 449 00:24:47,236 --> 00:24:52,956 Speaker 1: rather secluded romantic convent and being taken to this library, 450 00:24:54,276 --> 00:24:57,756 Speaker 1: and the sister brought this archive box out and put 451 00:24:57,796 --> 00:25:00,716 Speaker 1: these ledgers down, and I just knew. I knew I 452 00:25:00,756 --> 00:25:02,596 Speaker 1: was going to find her in it. I knew it. 453 00:25:02,676 --> 00:25:05,596 Speaker 1: And I opened up these books and I'm going through it, 454 00:25:06,276 --> 00:25:08,796 Speaker 1: and there it was. It was Missus Chapman was brought 455 00:25:08,796 --> 00:25:12,076 Speaker 1: in today by her two sisters, and the date was right. 456 00:25:12,356 --> 00:25:15,756 Speaker 1: And then Missus Chapmam's taken them home to Windsor and 457 00:25:16,156 --> 00:25:18,116 Speaker 1: various of the little entries, and it was just so 458 00:25:18,236 --> 00:25:20,916 Speaker 1: gratifying to be able to see that nobody had seen that, 459 00:25:20,996 --> 00:25:24,476 Speaker 1: nobody knew it was there. It's not cataloged, and sometimes 460 00:25:24,556 --> 00:25:26,316 Speaker 1: everything aligns like that. 461 00:25:26,436 --> 00:25:29,996 Speaker 2: For me, when I learned Anti Chapmann's story that detail 462 00:25:30,036 --> 00:25:33,436 Speaker 2: about being in a in a sanatorium made it even 463 00:25:33,436 --> 00:25:35,876 Speaker 2: more tragic, because when you look at the word of 464 00:25:35,956 --> 00:25:39,476 Speaker 2: context about those sanatoria and the approach to quote unquote 465 00:25:39,476 --> 00:25:44,116 Speaker 2: treatment there, you start to understand just how little society 466 00:25:44,116 --> 00:25:47,796 Speaker 2: at the time understood about addiction. Alcoholism and drunkenness in 467 00:25:47,876 --> 00:25:51,636 Speaker 2: particular were seen as shameful. They were an example of 468 00:25:51,636 --> 00:25:55,596 Speaker 2: moral failing. But at these sanatoria, women were expected to 469 00:25:55,676 --> 00:25:59,956 Speaker 2: do feminine activities to get fresh air, to exercise, to embroider, 470 00:26:00,036 --> 00:26:02,516 Speaker 2: the idea is that you can be cured from your 471 00:26:02,556 --> 00:26:06,156 Speaker 2: alcoholism by being reminded of your feminine duties. There's no 472 00:26:06,236 --> 00:26:10,636 Speaker 2: dealing with the root cause. And it shows that Annie 473 00:26:10,716 --> 00:26:14,316 Speaker 2: never really had a chance. And so that one detail 474 00:26:14,356 --> 00:26:16,916 Speaker 2: you found about the fact that this was where she 475 00:26:17,036 --> 00:26:19,876 Speaker 2: ended up, when you couple it with what we can 476 00:26:19,956 --> 00:26:23,356 Speaker 2: learn about these institutions, just makes our story so much 477 00:26:23,356 --> 00:26:28,076 Speaker 2: more poignant. I think, Kate, were there any really surprising 478 00:26:28,116 --> 00:26:31,476 Speaker 2: moments for you, any twists and turns like this in 479 00:26:31,516 --> 00:26:34,276 Speaker 2: your research of the women in our series. 480 00:26:34,476 --> 00:26:37,156 Speaker 4: You often hope that her family is going to be 481 00:26:37,196 --> 00:26:39,876 Speaker 4: quite straightforward, that they're going to live with their parents 482 00:26:40,236 --> 00:26:43,356 Speaker 4: and go through life and marry and go on. But 483 00:26:44,036 --> 00:26:47,796 Speaker 4: in the case of Catherine mulkay hey, when I discovered 484 00:26:47,836 --> 00:26:52,756 Speaker 4: that she was orphaned at the age of eleven, questions 485 00:26:52,876 --> 00:26:56,836 Speaker 4: of who then looked after her, And what I found 486 00:26:56,956 --> 00:27:02,876 Speaker 4: surprising was that the grandmother was receiving payment as guardian 487 00:27:03,076 --> 00:27:06,356 Speaker 4: for the children. But the grandmother was named as a 488 00:27:06,356 --> 00:27:10,076 Speaker 4: Phoebe Jones, and this was a complete new name. So 489 00:27:10,236 --> 00:27:13,276 Speaker 4: then I had to look into who Phoebe Jones was, 490 00:27:13,316 --> 00:27:16,876 Speaker 4: and then that led to finding more out about Catherine's 491 00:27:17,276 --> 00:27:22,156 Speaker 4: father and discovering that he was actually born out of 492 00:27:22,236 --> 00:27:26,916 Speaker 4: wedlock and his mother was Phoebe Jones, and that's quite 493 00:27:26,956 --> 00:27:31,716 Speaker 4: unusual for a chart to be raised by the father's parents. 494 00:27:31,956 --> 00:27:34,956 Speaker 1: One of my favorite subjects as a historian is the 495 00:27:34,996 --> 00:27:39,636 Speaker 1: stories people tell about themselves versus what the records say 496 00:27:39,716 --> 00:27:44,276 Speaker 1: about how people really lived. And one of the interesting 497 00:27:44,316 --> 00:27:47,596 Speaker 1: things Kate's picked up on about Kavin McCaughey's life is 498 00:27:47,796 --> 00:27:50,516 Speaker 1: that she came from a family with a kind of 499 00:27:50,716 --> 00:27:54,396 Speaker 1: very mixed background. There was a lot of illegitimacy, and 500 00:27:54,516 --> 00:27:58,556 Speaker 1: illegitimacy is hidden, but it often comes out in the records. 501 00:27:58,756 --> 00:28:02,636 Speaker 1: Birth records are fascinating for that uncover these family secrets. 502 00:28:02,796 --> 00:28:06,316 Speaker 1: You think that somebody somebody's cousin and they're actually their brother. 503 00:28:06,596 --> 00:28:09,596 Speaker 1: It's happened in my own family, where I think my 504 00:28:09,836 --> 00:28:13,276 Speaker 1: great grandmother had so many children that she gave one 505 00:28:13,316 --> 00:28:16,476 Speaker 1: of her sons to her sister to raise and he 506 00:28:16,556 --> 00:28:20,556 Speaker 1: never knew that he actually belonged to somebody else. And 507 00:28:20,596 --> 00:28:23,916 Speaker 1: that happens so frequently, and it really comes out in 508 00:28:23,956 --> 00:28:26,436 Speaker 1: these records. We tend to think that be Victorians, when 509 00:28:26,596 --> 00:28:30,716 Speaker 1: Edwardians are all very straight laced and or had illegitimate children. 510 00:28:30,796 --> 00:28:34,796 Speaker 1: Left right and center, people had mixed families and deaths 511 00:28:34,836 --> 00:28:38,636 Speaker 1: and remarriage. People work much closer to death and tragedy 512 00:28:38,956 --> 00:28:42,316 Speaker 1: than we can even imagine in the modern world. And 513 00:28:42,636 --> 00:28:45,396 Speaker 1: that becomes very apparent in these records and you stumble 514 00:28:45,436 --> 00:28:49,956 Speaker 1: across these family secrets and it's a revelation, but also 515 00:28:50,036 --> 00:28:52,316 Speaker 1: I think you need to tread very carefully because it 516 00:28:52,436 --> 00:28:53,836 Speaker 1: is somebody's history. 517 00:28:53,916 --> 00:28:56,836 Speaker 2: And of course, as an example of illegitimacy in our 518 00:28:56,876 --> 00:28:59,076 Speaker 2: story in season two of Bad Women, isn't there in 519 00:28:59,116 --> 00:29:02,276 Speaker 2: the form of Doris Chouane, who is raised by her 520 00:29:02,316 --> 00:29:04,996 Speaker 2: aunt and her mother and who never knows her father, 521 00:29:05,076 --> 00:29:08,756 Speaker 2: although she does invent one on her marriage certificate. Kate, 522 00:29:09,196 --> 00:29:11,836 Speaker 2: do you ever find that you come across family secrets 523 00:29:11,956 --> 00:29:12,596 Speaker 2: in your work? 524 00:29:12,796 --> 00:29:16,956 Speaker 4: Yes, certainly. Illegitimacy is the main one you do come across. 525 00:29:16,956 --> 00:29:19,636 Speaker 4: And a lot of people will think, don't know any 526 00:29:19,876 --> 00:29:22,956 Speaker 4: cases of illegitimacy in my family, but you can guarantee 527 00:29:22,956 --> 00:29:26,636 Speaker 4: there's always one lurking around somewhere. Every client is different 528 00:29:26,676 --> 00:29:29,956 Speaker 4: and how they might react to that news. The older 529 00:29:29,996 --> 00:29:34,636 Speaker 4: generation might be a bit more touchy and upset about. 530 00:29:34,356 --> 00:29:36,916 Speaker 1: It, because along with all of that is, you know, 531 00:29:36,996 --> 00:29:39,716 Speaker 1: something that isn't picked up in the records, but is 532 00:29:39,876 --> 00:29:42,796 Speaker 1: part of life experience, certainly in the past of today 533 00:29:42,796 --> 00:29:47,676 Speaker 1: as well, is shame, absolute crippling shame that people experienced 534 00:29:47,956 --> 00:29:50,556 Speaker 1: around these things. It comes out both in season one 535 00:29:50,596 --> 00:29:53,716 Speaker 1: and season two of The Women's Lives. We looked at. 536 00:29:53,756 --> 00:29:57,916 Speaker 2: Absolutely and because there's so much secrecy surrounding this issue 537 00:29:57,916 --> 00:30:01,796 Speaker 2: of illegitimacy, it won't be spoken about, so there are 538 00:30:01,876 --> 00:30:05,156 Speaker 2: silences in the records, and in Doris's case, we looked 539 00:30:05,276 --> 00:30:08,236 Speaker 2: to a proxy to try and understand what she might 540 00:30:08,276 --> 00:30:11,556 Speaker 2: have experienced. One who has spoken about being called a 541 00:30:11,636 --> 00:30:15,596 Speaker 2: quote unquote bastard is the prolific British writer Katherine Cookson, 542 00:30:15,636 --> 00:30:18,316 Speaker 2: who came from a similar area to Doris, and who's 543 00:30:18,316 --> 00:30:21,476 Speaker 2: written about her experiences and the stigma that she bore. 544 00:30:22,476 --> 00:30:24,996 Speaker 2: So we were lucky to find that, but often these 545 00:30:24,996 --> 00:30:29,436 Speaker 2: things do remain covered up. You're listening to a bonus 546 00:30:29,436 --> 00:30:31,956 Speaker 2: episode of Bad Women, all about genealogy. 547 00:30:32,316 --> 00:30:37,116 Speaker 3: We'll be back shortly. I'd love to talk. 548 00:30:36,996 --> 00:30:39,636 Speaker 2: A bit more about the women from season one and 549 00:30:39,716 --> 00:30:44,036 Speaker 2: season two. Were there any kind of particular sources or 550 00:30:44,116 --> 00:30:47,596 Speaker 2: moments in your research, Kate that helped you really connect 551 00:30:47,636 --> 00:30:49,836 Speaker 2: with these women and made you feel that you understood 552 00:30:49,836 --> 00:30:50,436 Speaker 2: them a bit more. 553 00:30:51,396 --> 00:30:55,076 Speaker 4: Yes. In the case of Kathleen pat Moore, I was 554 00:30:55,156 --> 00:30:59,636 Speaker 4: lucky enough to read the police report, and it really 555 00:30:59,716 --> 00:31:04,876 Speaker 4: gives you an insight into her life and her personality. 556 00:31:05,516 --> 00:31:08,516 Speaker 2: So Kathleen pat Moore was, of course a victim that 557 00:31:08,556 --> 00:31:12,836 Speaker 2: we looked at in our final episode, whose husband murdered 558 00:31:12,876 --> 00:31:14,836 Speaker 2: her when he returned home from war. 559 00:31:15,276 --> 00:31:19,596 Speaker 4: Yes, we're not usually privy to police reports, but once 560 00:31:19,636 --> 00:31:23,436 Speaker 4: you delve into it, parts of it quite harrowing. Knowing 561 00:31:23,596 --> 00:31:27,916 Speaker 4: what happened to Kathleen and the reputation that was attributed 562 00:31:27,996 --> 00:31:32,876 Speaker 4: to her. Reading those witness statements, it made me quite angry. 563 00:31:33,236 --> 00:31:36,916 Speaker 4: What they were saying about her, and she wasn't there 564 00:31:36,956 --> 00:31:39,876 Speaker 4: to defend herself. The fact that she was pregnant whilst 565 00:31:39,916 --> 00:31:42,916 Speaker 4: her husband was away in the army shows that she 566 00:31:43,156 --> 00:31:46,996 Speaker 4: was unfaithful, but the way that they went on about 567 00:31:47,036 --> 00:31:51,116 Speaker 4: her and her behavior with the soldiers, and then to 568 00:31:51,116 --> 00:31:55,516 Speaker 4: top it off, the police inspector practically opened the report 569 00:31:55,596 --> 00:32:00,236 Speaker 4: by saying, it is clear that this woman is immoral 570 00:32:00,396 --> 00:32:03,996 Speaker 4: and brought it on herself, and it really did make 571 00:32:04,036 --> 00:32:06,436 Speaker 4: me angry. On Kathleen's behalf. 572 00:32:06,276 --> 00:32:08,596 Speaker 2: I felt the same, and I think you know, we've 573 00:32:08,596 --> 00:32:11,756 Speaker 2: worked with a lot of police documents on this series 574 00:32:11,876 --> 00:32:17,156 Speaker 2: and prosecution files, and they're complex to work with because. 575 00:32:16,876 --> 00:32:20,316 Speaker 3: On the one hand, you can hear. 576 00:32:20,156 --> 00:32:23,196 Speaker 2: The voices of the people who were in the lives 577 00:32:23,236 --> 00:32:25,916 Speaker 2: of the person that you are studying and trying to understand. 578 00:32:25,956 --> 00:32:28,916 Speaker 2: Sometimes so you can hear them reporting their speech, and 579 00:32:28,956 --> 00:32:32,276 Speaker 2: it can feel as though your subject is reaching across 580 00:32:32,316 --> 00:32:35,036 Speaker 2: space and time to you. But on the other hand, 581 00:32:35,916 --> 00:32:39,316 Speaker 2: they are filtered through a very powerful institution in the 582 00:32:39,356 --> 00:32:43,196 Speaker 2: form of the police. Sometimes they're doubly filtered because if 583 00:32:43,196 --> 00:32:47,156 Speaker 2: it's a witness reporting speech, you have their voice layed 584 00:32:47,236 --> 00:32:50,236 Speaker 2: on top of the original speech. And then their voice 585 00:32:50,276 --> 00:32:54,476 Speaker 2: has been elicited by the questions of the police officer, 586 00:32:54,676 --> 00:32:57,996 Speaker 2: who actually is invisible. We don't see those questions, but 587 00:32:58,116 --> 00:33:01,516 Speaker 2: the story that the witness is telling has been extracted 588 00:33:01,796 --> 00:33:04,516 Speaker 2: very carefully by someone who knows exactly what they're doing, 589 00:33:04,636 --> 00:33:10,596 Speaker 2: and who isn't necessarily, as you've just illuminated, Kate impartial. 590 00:33:10,676 --> 00:33:14,676 Speaker 2: They may well bring their own prejudices to the matter. Hallie, 591 00:33:14,716 --> 00:33:16,596 Speaker 2: I wonder if you can tell us a bit about 592 00:33:16,596 --> 00:33:19,956 Speaker 2: any experiences you've had with the voices of the women 593 00:33:20,036 --> 00:33:20,796 Speaker 2: that you're studying. 594 00:33:21,396 --> 00:33:23,836 Speaker 1: One of the things that I set out to do 595 00:33:23,996 --> 00:33:27,516 Speaker 1: as a historian is to try to restore voices to 596 00:33:27,596 --> 00:33:30,156 Speaker 1: the voiceless, so the people who've been written out of history. 597 00:33:30,276 --> 00:33:34,156 Speaker 1: Through the various techniques that we've described, there are ways 598 00:33:34,196 --> 00:33:40,276 Speaker 1: in which if you cannot resurrect a person and hear 599 00:33:40,316 --> 00:33:43,556 Speaker 1: their voice directly, you can create an outline of that person, 600 00:33:43,716 --> 00:33:45,916 Speaker 1: so you have an idea of what their preferences are, 601 00:33:46,036 --> 00:33:49,676 Speaker 1: what sort of experiences they had, and that gives us 602 00:33:49,716 --> 00:33:55,396 Speaker 1: something towards understanding who those individuals were. Often women's voices, 603 00:33:55,516 --> 00:33:59,476 Speaker 1: especially poor women or the dispossessed, their voices just are 604 00:33:59,596 --> 00:34:02,356 Speaker 1: absent from a record because men are speaking for them. 605 00:34:02,516 --> 00:34:05,596 Speaker 1: Authorities are speaking for them, as you said with the police, 606 00:34:05,636 --> 00:34:09,396 Speaker 1: for example, with the victims of Jack the Ripper, very 607 00:34:09,436 --> 00:34:15,396 Speaker 1: few occasions where we have somebody's actual words that they 608 00:34:15,436 --> 00:34:20,596 Speaker 1: spoke recorded, and one of them was Polly Nichols. And interestingly, 609 00:34:20,636 --> 00:34:23,076 Speaker 1: towards the very end of Polly's life you can trace 610 00:34:23,676 --> 00:34:25,436 Speaker 1: all of the various places she went to because she 611 00:34:25,476 --> 00:34:28,396 Speaker 1: was in and out of workhouses and casual wards and 612 00:34:28,436 --> 00:34:32,316 Speaker 1: they tend to keep quite good records. I was looking 613 00:34:32,316 --> 00:34:36,676 Speaker 1: through something which were called settlement examinations. So when you 614 00:34:36,716 --> 00:34:40,276 Speaker 1: went into a workhouse, they tried to determine whether you 615 00:34:40,476 --> 00:34:43,716 Speaker 1: actually belonged in that parish or not, because you're accepting charity, 616 00:34:43,756 --> 00:34:46,156 Speaker 1: and if you don't live in that area, they don't 617 00:34:46,196 --> 00:34:48,156 Speaker 1: want you there, so they'll send you on to where 618 00:34:48,156 --> 00:34:50,316 Speaker 1: you're from. So what they do is they question you 619 00:34:50,396 --> 00:34:51,956 Speaker 1: or try to figure out where you're actually from and 620 00:34:51,956 --> 00:34:55,276 Speaker 1: where you can be shunted on too. Nichols turns up 621 00:34:55,276 --> 00:34:57,636 Speaker 1: at the Hulburn Union. They want to find out where 622 00:34:57,636 --> 00:35:01,196 Speaker 1: she belongs. Her answers are written verbatim. They're written, as 623 00:35:02,156 --> 00:35:04,876 Speaker 1: I used to live in the Peabody buildings on Stamford 624 00:35:04,916 --> 00:35:06,036 Speaker 1: Street and Lambeth. 625 00:35:06,596 --> 00:35:07,996 Speaker 3: What was it like for you? Reading that? 626 00:35:08,716 --> 00:35:12,156 Speaker 1: It was like, Wow, it just jumped off the page 627 00:35:12,276 --> 00:35:15,036 Speaker 1: because he or she is speaking for herself in the 628 00:35:15,076 --> 00:35:23,676 Speaker 1: midst of this very regimented, very bureaucratic structure. Here was 629 00:35:23,676 --> 00:35:25,156 Speaker 1: the voice of a workhouse in me. 630 00:35:26,116 --> 00:35:28,556 Speaker 2: You've both touched on how in the course of your 631 00:35:28,596 --> 00:35:33,596 Speaker 2: work you might learn about family secrets before the actual 632 00:35:33,676 --> 00:35:37,516 Speaker 2: families themselves might know them. It seems as though there's 633 00:35:37,516 --> 00:35:41,116 Speaker 2: a huge amount of ethical responsibility that goes along with 634 00:35:41,716 --> 00:35:43,996 Speaker 2: what you both do. I wondered if you could talk 635 00:35:43,996 --> 00:35:45,676 Speaker 2: about that a bit, Dawly. Do you want to start. 636 00:35:46,076 --> 00:35:48,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, for example, in the work I'm doing now, 637 00:35:48,716 --> 00:35:51,356 Speaker 1: which was about the murder of Bill Elmore by doctor 638 00:35:51,396 --> 00:35:54,436 Speaker 1: Crippen in nineteen ten, I have been trying to find 639 00:35:55,436 --> 00:35:59,716 Speaker 1: the descendants of his first wife, who died in very 640 00:35:59,716 --> 00:36:03,356 Speaker 1: mysterious circumstances in Salt Lake City, and her family was 641 00:36:03,516 --> 00:36:06,836 Speaker 1: originally from Ireland. I was actually working with a genealogist 642 00:36:06,916 --> 00:36:09,116 Speaker 1: to try to find out where these relatives ended up, 643 00:36:09,436 --> 00:36:12,356 Speaker 1: and she located this branch of the family in the 644 00:36:12,436 --> 00:36:14,756 Speaker 1: United States, and I'm like, oh, that's interesting. How did 645 00:36:14,756 --> 00:36:18,796 Speaker 1: that happen. And then I started looking into this daughter 646 00:36:19,676 --> 00:36:23,876 Speaker 1: of the brother of Crippen's first wife and found out 647 00:36:23,876 --> 00:36:27,436 Speaker 1: when she came over to the United States, and I 648 00:36:27,556 --> 00:36:30,556 Speaker 1: was surprised how much I could find out about her, 649 00:36:30,556 --> 00:36:33,036 Speaker 1: the name of the ship she was on, where she settled, 650 00:36:33,076 --> 00:36:36,996 Speaker 1: who she married. And I suddenly felt really embarrassed because 651 00:36:37,076 --> 00:36:41,196 Speaker 1: I then had to talk to this woman's daughter on 652 00:36:41,236 --> 00:36:44,396 Speaker 1: the phone and she was telling me about her mother, 653 00:36:44,556 --> 00:36:45,996 Speaker 1: and I was saying, yeah, I know, yeah, I know. 654 00:36:46,436 --> 00:36:49,436 Speaker 1: Oh God, I shouldn't say that because it feels so intrusive, 655 00:36:49,796 --> 00:36:52,956 Speaker 1: and you realize the sort of power that you have, 656 00:36:53,356 --> 00:36:56,676 Speaker 1: and the power that these records have, and how delicately 657 00:36:56,756 --> 00:37:00,956 Speaker 1: you should be handling this material and this information because 658 00:37:00,956 --> 00:37:05,756 Speaker 1: it is somebody's life that people alive care about today. 659 00:37:06,196 --> 00:37:08,516 Speaker 2: Kate, how do you feel when you end up in 660 00:37:08,556 --> 00:37:11,996 Speaker 2: the position of learning people's secrets and how do you 661 00:37:12,036 --> 00:37:15,116 Speaker 2: regard the ethical responsibilities in the role of genealogists. 662 00:37:15,396 --> 00:37:17,836 Speaker 4: Well, yes, you do have to be careful and make 663 00:37:17,996 --> 00:37:21,556 Speaker 4: people aware that they might find things that they were 664 00:37:21,596 --> 00:37:26,316 Speaker 4: not expecting and that might be upsetting, particularly if you're 665 00:37:26,356 --> 00:37:30,316 Speaker 4: dealing with more recent families. And I actually tried to 666 00:37:30,596 --> 00:37:35,516 Speaker 4: day away from any adoptions or living relatives, because I 667 00:37:35,556 --> 00:37:38,716 Speaker 4: think that really does need a specialist. I do say 668 00:37:38,716 --> 00:37:41,396 Speaker 4: to people, I only deal with dead people. I've recently 669 00:37:41,716 --> 00:37:47,036 Speaker 4: traced family and they've got some minor criminals in the family. 670 00:37:47,076 --> 00:37:51,196 Speaker 4: That personnel I found fascinating and really quite amusing. I'm 671 00:37:51,196 --> 00:37:53,476 Speaker 4: going to have to be careful with how I present 672 00:37:53,676 --> 00:37:56,636 Speaker 4: the information. And then, of course you also get the 673 00:37:56,796 --> 00:38:02,676 Speaker 4: situation that people are convinced that they are related to somebody. 674 00:38:02,836 --> 00:38:07,556 Speaker 4: They've been told this family story, particular one that being 675 00:38:07,556 --> 00:38:10,556 Speaker 4: from the Midlands, I get people who think they're related 676 00:38:10,596 --> 00:38:14,756 Speaker 4: to Shakespeare. I had to tell somebody that the family 677 00:38:14,756 --> 00:38:17,276 Speaker 4: that you thought you were related to, you're actually not 678 00:38:17,316 --> 00:38:20,636 Speaker 4: related to anyway because of illegitimacy. They'd done this whole 679 00:38:20,676 --> 00:38:23,236 Speaker 4: big family tree and it turned out that they weren't 680 00:38:23,276 --> 00:38:28,596 Speaker 4: actually part of that family. Of course, it was quite disappointing, 681 00:38:28,716 --> 00:38:30,956 Speaker 4: but not too upsetting, hopefully. 682 00:38:31,796 --> 00:38:35,636 Speaker 3: What advice would you give to aspiring genealogists, Kate. 683 00:38:36,476 --> 00:38:39,116 Speaker 4: Well, the first thing we always say if you want 684 00:38:39,236 --> 00:38:41,516 Speaker 4: to look into your family history is to speak to 685 00:38:41,556 --> 00:38:44,476 Speaker 4: your living relatives before it's too late. Find out as 686 00:38:44,556 --> 00:38:47,276 Speaker 4: much as you can about their history, about their parents, 687 00:38:47,276 --> 00:38:52,876 Speaker 4: their grandparents and dig out any family records. You've got certificates, 688 00:38:52,916 --> 00:38:57,196 Speaker 4: pir certificates, anything, And particularly when you are talking to 689 00:38:57,276 --> 00:39:00,276 Speaker 4: your family, it's not just about the dates and places, 690 00:39:00,916 --> 00:39:05,076 Speaker 4: it's family stories of your parents growing up. I speak 691 00:39:05,076 --> 00:39:08,396 Speaker 4: from experience that my mother died recently, but luckily we 692 00:39:08,436 --> 00:39:11,956 Speaker 4: did share the love of family history together, so I 693 00:39:12,036 --> 00:39:14,716 Speaker 4: did make a point of trying to ask her questions 694 00:39:14,716 --> 00:39:18,596 Speaker 4: about her family. And those stories are invaluable because I'll 695 00:39:18,636 --> 00:39:21,276 Speaker 4: never learn them once they've gone. But if you want 696 00:39:21,316 --> 00:39:24,476 Speaker 4: to pursue it, there's certainly lots of help out there. 697 00:39:24,516 --> 00:39:28,836 Speaker 4: There's lots of good books, some online courses. Then you've 698 00:39:28,876 --> 00:39:34,516 Speaker 4: got the ancestry and pharmopast websites and other subscription websites 699 00:39:34,556 --> 00:39:38,076 Speaker 4: that are fantastic, and you have to use due diligence 700 00:39:38,196 --> 00:39:42,156 Speaker 4: and check your sources and cite your sources. We're talking 701 00:39:42,156 --> 00:39:46,076 Speaker 4: about the birth certificates, the mariatificates, the censuses. If you 702 00:39:46,156 --> 00:39:48,836 Speaker 4: do a bit of digging down into some of these trees, 703 00:39:49,436 --> 00:39:52,636 Speaker 4: you can find some glaring errors. You'll have a man 704 00:39:52,676 --> 00:39:56,716 Speaker 4: who's died and then fathered children a few years later. 705 00:39:57,076 --> 00:40:01,476 Speaker 4: And I think that's possibly why historians may give genealogy 706 00:40:01,476 --> 00:40:04,876 Speaker 4: a bad rep and think that we're almost hobbyists doing 707 00:40:04,956 --> 00:40:07,076 Speaker 4: it online. But as long as you are go and 708 00:40:07,116 --> 00:40:11,636 Speaker 4: do diligence to make sure you're sources are correct, then 709 00:40:12,116 --> 00:40:14,236 Speaker 4: I think the stories are worth telling. 710 00:40:14,356 --> 00:40:16,636 Speaker 2: I think you've hit upon something really important there, which 711 00:40:16,676 --> 00:40:20,196 Speaker 2: is that some people do undervalue genealogy. They might think 712 00:40:20,236 --> 00:40:22,836 Speaker 2: it's not rigorous, they might see it as backward looking. 713 00:40:23,036 --> 00:40:25,876 Speaker 2: Why are these microhistories, the types of stories that you 714 00:40:25,996 --> 00:40:29,876 Speaker 2: uncover through your work, both of you so important. 715 00:40:30,076 --> 00:40:34,996 Speaker 1: Well, first, I wanted to address this snobbery around genealogy, 716 00:40:35,076 --> 00:40:37,516 Speaker 1: which I think is very misplaced, and that comes from 717 00:40:37,556 --> 00:40:40,916 Speaker 1: a larger problem within history, which is defining what is 718 00:40:41,076 --> 00:40:44,356 Speaker 1: history and this idea that history is only the history 719 00:40:44,396 --> 00:40:47,596 Speaker 1: of the great and the good, which is totally antiquated. 720 00:40:47,996 --> 00:40:51,476 Speaker 1: And you speak to any academic in any history department 721 00:40:52,076 --> 00:40:54,596 Speaker 1: in the world and they will say that is not 722 00:40:54,796 --> 00:40:57,516 Speaker 1: a working definition of what history is. History is all 723 00:40:57,556 --> 00:41:01,276 Speaker 1: the nooks and crannies and niches, and in that the 724 00:41:01,316 --> 00:41:03,756 Speaker 1: work of the genealogist is absolutely key. 725 00:41:04,396 --> 00:41:07,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree with that history does often focus 726 00:41:07,796 --> 00:41:10,236 Speaker 2: on the great deeds of great men, doesn't it on 727 00:41:10,356 --> 00:41:13,476 Speaker 2: politicians and leaders, not the ordinary people who are actually 728 00:41:13,796 --> 00:41:16,756 Speaker 2: subjected to the follies of those politicians and those leaders 729 00:41:17,116 --> 00:41:20,356 Speaker 2: whose lives slip through the cracks you mentioned earlier, Halley, 730 00:41:20,436 --> 00:41:23,636 Speaker 2: this idea of giving voices back to the voiceless. If 731 00:41:23,676 --> 00:41:26,876 Speaker 2: we don't try to exhume those lives, if we don't 732 00:41:26,956 --> 00:41:32,516 Speaker 2: try to imagine their experiences, recreate them, walk in their footsteps, 733 00:41:32,556 --> 00:41:34,796 Speaker 2: then we let those voices be silent. 734 00:41:34,836 --> 00:41:36,436 Speaker 1: We conspire in that silence. 735 00:41:36,436 --> 00:41:39,396 Speaker 2: We conspire in the silence. We conspire in the prevailing 736 00:41:39,476 --> 00:41:43,236 Speaker 2: prejudices too. Kate, what do you think about all of that? 737 00:41:43,236 --> 00:41:46,756 Speaker 2: Why is genealogy so important. 738 00:41:46,076 --> 00:41:50,596 Speaker 4: Because the ordinary person is the history of the country. 739 00:41:50,636 --> 00:41:53,556 Speaker 4: That they are the people that have made the country 740 00:41:53,556 --> 00:41:57,316 Speaker 4: what it is. I remember studying history at school and 741 00:41:57,396 --> 00:41:59,876 Speaker 4: learning about the Poor Law and the Factory Act and 742 00:42:00,236 --> 00:42:03,516 Speaker 4: things like that, and it was all quite dry. But 743 00:42:03,636 --> 00:42:06,596 Speaker 4: then when you look at your own families or other 744 00:42:06,596 --> 00:42:10,196 Speaker 4: people's families, and you can see these laws actually having 745 00:42:10,196 --> 00:42:14,756 Speaker 4: an impact on people's lives, particularly using where I'm from 746 00:42:14,756 --> 00:42:18,556 Speaker 4: as an example from Birmingham, a lot of families were 747 00:42:18,716 --> 00:42:22,996 Speaker 4: that working class person working in the factories, living in 748 00:42:23,156 --> 00:42:26,676 Speaker 4: these back to back homes, but they're the ones that 749 00:42:26,956 --> 00:42:31,276 Speaker 4: fuel the growth of the city. History doesn't cover these 750 00:42:31,316 --> 00:42:36,076 Speaker 4: people generally, but it's all of our histories and knowing 751 00:42:36,116 --> 00:42:39,916 Speaker 4: about how our ancestors lived. Certainly, for me, I think 752 00:42:39,956 --> 00:42:41,556 Speaker 4: it puts my life into perspective. 753 00:42:41,916 --> 00:42:44,636 Speaker 1: This is the true value of history, Kate, And what 754 00:42:44,756 --> 00:42:49,516 Speaker 1: genealogy helps us get closer to is that very fundamental 755 00:42:49,876 --> 00:42:54,836 Speaker 1: human experience, individual lives. And I think if history serves 756 00:42:54,836 --> 00:42:59,636 Speaker 1: a purpose, it's to reconnect us with those human experiences, 757 00:42:59,956 --> 00:43:05,116 Speaker 1: to inform our own experiences, to understand all of this better, 758 00:43:06,036 --> 00:43:10,116 Speaker 1: and that's really what we should be focusing on, Kate. 759 00:43:10,276 --> 00:43:13,356 Speaker 2: I wonder if you have any wider reflections on the 760 00:43:13,396 --> 00:43:15,836 Speaker 2: research you've done for us on bad women, or if 761 00:43:15,876 --> 00:43:17,836 Speaker 2: there's anything you'll take away more generally. 762 00:43:18,276 --> 00:43:20,796 Speaker 4: I think certainly, I got the feeling that all of 763 00:43:20,836 --> 00:43:24,356 Speaker 4: the women were very strong, independent women. They tried to 764 00:43:24,396 --> 00:43:28,036 Speaker 4: forge their own way in life despite their not backs, 765 00:43:28,516 --> 00:43:32,836 Speaker 4: usually by men, and well, it's been a privilege to 766 00:43:32,876 --> 00:43:34,436 Speaker 4: get to know them personally. 767 00:43:34,956 --> 00:43:36,036 Speaker 3: Same here me too. 768 00:43:36,276 --> 00:43:39,356 Speaker 4: But the sad thing is knowing that things haven't really 769 00:43:39,436 --> 00:43:42,436 Speaker 4: changed much, that these issues are still going on today. 770 00:43:42,516 --> 00:43:44,596 Speaker 4: A woman walking home from the pub late at night 771 00:43:44,676 --> 00:43:47,796 Speaker 4: being blamed for being attacked because she shouldn't have been there. 772 00:43:48,236 --> 00:43:51,116 Speaker 4: It's just sad that things haven't really moved on. 773 00:43:52,196 --> 00:43:54,396 Speaker 2: Kate Heally, thank you very much for joining us. 774 00:43:54,916 --> 00:43:55,676 Speaker 4: It's my pleasure. 775 00:43:56,516 --> 00:43:58,916 Speaker 1: That's it from us, But if you're interested in finding 776 00:43:58,956 --> 00:44:02,836 Speaker 1: out more about Kate's work, or even engaging her services, 777 00:44:03,196 --> 00:44:06,356 Speaker 1: you might like to check out her website www. Dot 778 00:44:06,516 --> 00:44:10,236 Speaker 1: Oakwoodfamilytrees dot co, dot u hey