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Speaker 1: I think we have the best legal system.

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Speaker 2: It's just the people that implement they get lost along

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Speaker 2: the way and forget what their job really is.

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Speaker 3: He just kept on trying to remind me that who

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Speaker 3: was in authority, who was in control, and how easy

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Speaker 3: it was for my body to be found in any

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Speaker 3: alley of New York City.

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Speaker 4: It's a tough prison when you have the guards going

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Speaker 4: against you because they are the biggest gang in the prison.

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Speaker 1: They do that.

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Speaker 2: They'll give a guy a life sentence and go home

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Speaker 2: in eat spaghetti like it was nothing.

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Speaker 3: And anybody that said, well, why would you confess to

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Speaker 3: something that you didn't do? My question to them will

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Speaker 3: be why wouldn't you confess when somebody's threatening to kill

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Speaker 3: your life?

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Speaker 1: The judge, he said, how you feel? I said, I'm okay.

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Speaker 1: He said, well, the days you're lucky day you're going home.

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Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 4: Jason Flamm. I was actually nervous coming over here.

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Speaker 5: I was so excited because we have somebody, Well, you're

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Speaker 5: gonna have to hear for yourself, somebody named Jerry Miller.

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Speaker 6: Miller was convicted back in nineteen eighty two.

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Speaker 7: He served more than twenty years for a brutal rape,

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Speaker 7: but recent DNA testing proved he wasn't the rapist.

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Speaker 6: He later filed a civil rights lawsuit alleging the now

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Speaker 6: retired officers had framed him for the crime by conducting

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Speaker 6: a suggestive lineup and failing to disclose evidence. The judge

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Speaker 6: rejected those claims, ruling the officers did not engage in

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Speaker 6: any misconduct.

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Speaker 7: Jerry Miller was paroled last year, but still had to

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Speaker 7: register as a sex offender.

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Speaker 8: He missed nieces and nephew's birthday parties because he was

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Speaker 8: not all to be around children. He had to wear

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Speaker 8: an ankle bracelet and keep to a nine pm curfew.

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Speaker 8: Jerry Miller was the two hundredth American wrongly convicted to

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Speaker 8: be cleared by DNA evidence.

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Speaker 9: After twenty five years in prison for a kidnapping, rape

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Speaker 9: and robert that he did not commit. Jerry Miller is

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Speaker 9: now free, his conviction removed from the record based on

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Speaker 9: DNA testing that proves his innocence.

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Speaker 4: Jerry, Welcome to ronfuel conviction.

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Speaker 1: Hey, how you doing.

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Speaker 5: Good morning, and with Jerry we'll call him exoneration Royalty.

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Speaker 5: Here today, the founder of the National Registry of Exonerations.

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Speaker 5: Maurice Posley is here with us today. Maurice, welcome, Thank you.

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Speaker 5: It's a pleasure to be here. So, Jerry, your story

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Speaker 5: is remarkable in so many ways. But first take us

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Speaker 5: back to the day this crime happened. You were in

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Speaker 5: Chicago watching a fight with your father and your brother, right.

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Speaker 1: Actually, yes, I was home watching the fight.

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Speaker 2: My father was president brothers uncle, and I had no

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Speaker 2: idea about any of this because I wasn't thrown into

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Speaker 2: it until a week later.

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Speaker 1: The way that happened was I just was stopped by

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Speaker 1: the police.

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Speaker 2: They said I was peering in the cars as if

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Speaker 2: I was stealing cars, and so from that point they

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Speaker 2: took down my name or they ran my name, and

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Speaker 2: they said, well, you got a lot of traffic tics

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Speaker 2: and I told him, I said, I don't even have

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Speaker 2: a car, so I don't know how that's possible.

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Speaker 5: Well, your name Jerry Miller. So a lot of Jerry

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Speaker 5: Miller's in Chicago, and you were arrested for walking while black.

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Speaker 1: Well that's correct.

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Speaker 2: But what happened is they just took my name and

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Speaker 2: everything down, and so the crime had already occurred as

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Speaker 2: soon because they were looking for somebody. And so when

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Speaker 2: I go home, you know, I'm going about my life

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Speaker 2: and then you know, these people who had stopped me

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Speaker 2: show up at my home. I at first don't know

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Speaker 2: who it is. All I know is the police, and

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering why they knocking on the door. And so

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Speaker 2: when I answered the door, they say, are you Jered Miller?

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Speaker 2: I said yeah, and they say can we speak to you?

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Speaker 2: I said, what is it? And I hear my little

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Speaker 2: brothers and my mother said who's at the door, and

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Speaker 2: then say could you step out? When I stepped out,

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Speaker 2: that was probably the worst thing I could have did,

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Speaker 2: because at that point they put me on the arrest,

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Speaker 2: put me in cuffs, and put me in the police car,

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Speaker 2: and then they took me to almost fifteen miles away.

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Speaker 1: I would think I lived on the southeast.

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Speaker 2: They took me to build my western and that's on

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Speaker 2: the north side, right, And so at that point, for

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Speaker 2: three days, no one knew I was.

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Speaker 1: My parents was all you know. They knew.

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Speaker 2: The police came to the door, and they saw the

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Speaker 2: police drive off with me, but no one actually knew

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Speaker 2: where they took me. And so for three days they

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Speaker 2: had me in interrogating me, trying to intimidate me. Well,

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Speaker 2: I was intimidated because I actually know what was going on.

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Speaker 2: They just kipnapped me and so this is the police

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Speaker 2: and I'm in in lock up and no one is

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Speaker 2: answering any question.

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Speaker 1: And then they.

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Speaker 2: Took me to police headquarters. They asked me to do

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Speaker 2: a lot to take the test, and I had agreed

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Speaker 2: to it, no problem. But when I got there, they

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Speaker 2: had blank paper and they had an area for you

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Speaker 2: to sign your name, and being a fresh at the military,

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Speaker 2: I was like, wait a minute. I remember they would

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Speaker 2: always say you do not sign anything you don't understand.

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Speaker 4: That's good advice throughout life.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: So and they had words like they're too four, and

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Speaker 2: I really didn't understand what that meant in the context

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Speaker 2: of a blank piece of paper and a place for

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Speaker 2: you to sign your name.

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Speaker 1: I said, I'll do the LOTE test, but I'm not

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Speaker 1: signing this paper.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 5: Let's talk about the crime. The crime was a brutal

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Speaker 5: crime in which a forty four year old white woman

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Speaker 5: was accosted by a young black man in the parking

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Speaker 5: garage who pushed her into her car, beat her up,

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Speaker 5: raped her, and robbed her and then threw her.

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Speaker 4: In the trunk.

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Speaker 1: That's it.

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Speaker 4: And then he attempted to.

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Speaker 5: Drive out of the garage and the cashier, I'm getting

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Speaker 5: the chills thinking about this doinga the cashier who was

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Speaker 5: very alert, he recognized the car, so he didn't allow

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Speaker 5: the guy to drive out. And then another guy came

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Speaker 5: and the guy jumped out and fled on foot, and

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Speaker 5: she was freed, but she never identified you. And in fact,

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Speaker 5: the cops had some very difficult things to try to

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Speaker 5: figure out in this case because, and obviously they really

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Speaker 5: wanted to solve this case, a lot of pressure. Right,

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Speaker 5: white woman rape by it's just you know, it's the typical.

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Speaker 10: So it was downtown, it was right off Michigan Avenue,

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Speaker 10: and it's where a lot of people go, and so

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Speaker 10: there was a lot of pressure to solve this from

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Speaker 10: that perspective, Yes, and we.

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Speaker 5: See a lot of wrongful convictions happening in exactly those

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Speaker 5: type of circumstances, but there's a lot of pressure from

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Speaker 5: the community that they care.

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Speaker 4: About the most. Let's just say right, it's wrong, but

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Speaker 4: that's the way it is.

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Speaker 10: It's exactly right.

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Speaker 5: And in this case they had some hurdles to overcome

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Speaker 5: because your blood type didn't match, and your fingerprints didn't match,

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Speaker 5: and they had this evidence. So at some point somebody

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Speaker 5: had to make a conscious decision and say, well, let's

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Speaker 5: just stick with this guy, even though we know he's

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Speaker 5: not the guy, because they had to know you weren't

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Speaker 5: the guy because you didn't magically change your blood type

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Speaker 5: or your fingerprints. And furthermore, the victim described that the

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Speaker 5: perpetrator was clean shaven, and you had it, and you

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Speaker 5: had a lot.

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Speaker 2: Of I had a go tee directly up under the

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Speaker 2: chin and it was at least I say, two and

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Speaker 2: a half three inches, And you cannot grow a goateee

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Speaker 2: two and three a half inches in seven days. This

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Speaker 2: was totally just ignored.

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Speaker 5: Right, I mean, Muris, would you agree that at some

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Speaker 5: point a conscious decision was made to frame Jerry.

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Speaker 10: A conscious decision was made that even though the facts

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Speaker 10: don't fit, we think this is the guy, and they

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Speaker 10: put the blinders on and they keep going ahead even

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Speaker 10: though there's all these red flags that point away where

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Speaker 10: this case went off the track right from the beginning

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Speaker 10: was the woman victim with police creates a composite sketch.

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Speaker 10: These composite sketches go into a daily flyer that gets distributed.

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Speaker 10: Back in those days, it was a piece of paper

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Speaker 10: that got distributed at every shift change, and so people

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Speaker 10: would look for it. And the story was that the

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Speaker 10: two guys that had stopped you for looking in cars said, well,

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Speaker 10: that looks like the guy we just saw. So at

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Speaker 10: that point those two officers were convinced that this Jerry

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Speaker 10: Miller who they saw supposedly looking in cars was the

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Speaker 10: person in the composite. And the case starts to move forward,

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Speaker 10: and they don't want to stop and take a breath

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Speaker 10: and say, well, wait a minute, could we be wrong.

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Speaker 10: Could the person who drew the composite have made a mistake,

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Speaker 10: and composits are notoriously bad to begin with, or could

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Speaker 10: the woman who gave the details have just been so

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Speaker 10: flustered and so upset by this horrible thing that happened

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Speaker 10: to her.

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Speaker 5: Well, and this woman had said that the rapist, the attacker,

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Speaker 5: had ordered her to keep her eyes shut during the

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Speaker 5: whole ordeal, and so she had admitted from the beginning

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Speaker 5: that she would be having a very hard time making

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Speaker 5: an identification, but that didn't stand in the way of progress.

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Speaker 5: And this is also a case in which the cashiers

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Speaker 5: were white, Is that right?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 2: No, they actually was the people who identified me to

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Speaker 2: the point of the police making the arrest, because the

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Speaker 2: rest was made because of the identification. They were black

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Speaker 2: and the victim was white. And I always said to myself,

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Speaker 2: why are these people lying about seeing me? Why don't

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Speaker 2: they just tell them that they make a mistake. And

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Speaker 2: then the victim is saying they kept her out the

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Speaker 2: loop until a trial.

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Speaker 1: You know, she wasn't even involved in the case.

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Speaker 2: Just my experience of being the man in the hot seat,

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Speaker 2: I learned and they literally at one point had to

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Speaker 2: know I wasn't the person, but at one point they

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Speaker 2: just decided they didn't care and it made no difference.

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Speaker 1: But they were black and she was white.

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Speaker 4: What about the cops who arrested you.

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Speaker 1: They were two white cops.

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Speaker 10: Cross racial is a serious, serious problem in a case

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Speaker 10: like Jerry's. You sort of really don't know is did

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Speaker 10: the guys who worked at the security booths of the

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Speaker 10: cashier's booth, did they honestly mistakenly or did they were

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Speaker 10: they basically nudged by the police to say, well, we've

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Speaker 10: got the guy, we think this is the guy, we

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Speaker 10: believe this is the guy, and so they'll say, well, okay,

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Speaker 10: I mean you hear this in cases of wrongful identification

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Speaker 10: where it's well, the police assured me that they had

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Speaker 10: the guy, and so I could figure out who to

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Speaker 10: pick or however.

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Speaker 1: They did it.

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Speaker 10: And then when you know, you go into the courtroom,

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Speaker 10: you know who it is. He's sitting there, but they

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Speaker 10: know who the defendant is, and when they say, well,

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Speaker 10: do you see him in the courtroom, it's pretty easy

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Speaker 10: to find the right person.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 5: So meanwhile, here you are in the middle of this nightmare,

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Speaker 5: the way that took this, and then the trial comes

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Speaker 5: and you were very misfortunate to have a judge who

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Speaker 5: turned out to be a very corrupt and dishonest individual

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Speaker 5: on top of all the other problems.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, he has a stow himself.

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Speaker 10: Actually, Judge Maloney went to prison ultimately for fixing murder cases.

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Speaker 10: The evidence over time showed that number one, he was

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Speaker 10: a very harsh sentence or maximum guy. He was throw

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Speaker 10: away the key guy. You know, you got forty five years,

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Speaker 10: which was oh my god. And he tended to balance

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Speaker 10: the cases that he pitched where he was on the take,

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Speaker 10: and some of these were murder cases. Where he was

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Speaker 10: taking bribes to throw him out. He balanced that out

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Speaker 10: by being extraordinarily harsh in other cases. It's incredible. I mean,

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Speaker 10: it's right out of a bad movie, right. You can't

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Speaker 10: make this stuff up. And he ended up going to

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Speaker 10: prison himself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, even went to prison. I think he received fifteen years,

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Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken.

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Speaker 5: So Chicago, on top of everything else we know, is

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Speaker 5: a place where wrongful convictions are extremely common, and you

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Speaker 5: had the perfect storm hitting right.

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Speaker 4: You had a.

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Speaker 5: Lot of the different factors that we see again and

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Speaker 5: again in these cases. Then you got Chicago where it

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Speaker 5: just was sort of common, right.

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Speaker 10: The state of things back then was well. Ultimately, they

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Speaker 10: had a federal investigation where they indicted seventeen judges and

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Speaker 10: more than one hundred court clerks and lawyers defense lawyers

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Speaker 10: for fixing cases. It was the name of that Graylow operation.

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Speaker 4: Graylor. Oh my god, I didn't know that.

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Speaker 10: That is where it was the first time in American

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Speaker 10: history where they bugged a judge's court room, his chambers

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Speaker 10: rather and caught them on tape fixing murder case. It

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Speaker 10: was accessible, Holy shit.

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Speaker 5: I mean, on top of everything else, you had the

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Speaker 5: police who were systematically torturing suspects right in that warehouse, right,

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Speaker 5: and this is Chicago, right. People need to understand that

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Speaker 5: this is a phenomenon that happens all over the place,

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Speaker 5: and we as a society owe it to people like

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Speaker 5: yourself and to just regular civilians walking around to stop

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Speaker 5: this insanity and to actually focus the resources of law

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Speaker 5: enforcement on catching the actual perpetrator, because, again not atypical

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Speaker 5: in your case, the actual perpetrator was left on the

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Speaker 5: streets and ultimately went on to rape and rob other people.

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Speaker 5: And those are victims that never should have been victimized.

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Speaker 1: That's true.

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Speaker 2: You wonder who benefited from making me fit into that well? Ho,

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Speaker 2: that was a waste of time because the gas day

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Speaker 2: was out there, so if they knew they was framing me,

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Speaker 2: then they knew they was leaving the gap.

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Speaker 10: The immediate sort of gratification. If that's the right way

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Speaker 10: of saying, we've solved this crime. We've shown that we

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Speaker 10: do our jobs. We are sending the message that we're

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Speaker 10: protecting the public. Unfortunately, they do it on the backs

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Speaker 10: of innocent people like Jerry.

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Speaker 5: And the innocent victims. I mean, how would you feel

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Speaker 5: if you were that person? The next person that he raped,

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Speaker 5: or the father or brother or mother or daughter or

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Speaker 5: whatever of that person. And you're going, well, not only

283
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Speaker 5: are you left in this terrible situation where for years

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Speaker 5: you've been angry at the wrong person, you've also been

285
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Speaker 5: deceived in a very tragic way by the people that

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Speaker 5: you trust who are supposed to be protecting all of us.

287
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Speaker 5: And then you find out that that person who victimized

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Speaker 5: you or your loved one is out there or was

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Speaker 5: out there doing the same thing to other people. It's

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Speaker 5: just another terrible blow for a victim and a victims

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Speaker 5: family to have to absorb. But let's get back to you, Jerry.

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Speaker 5: So you go to trial and you're represented by a

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Speaker 5: public defender.

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Speaker 2: No, no, actually my father retained a lawyer. His name

295
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Speaker 2: was Sheldon Rosky. He took my case. But in the

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Speaker 2: end I got convicted. So even as I went through

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Speaker 2: that process, even before they charged me, I didn't understand

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Speaker 2: why they was trying to put this on me because

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Speaker 2: I knew I had nothing to do with whatever they

300
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Speaker 2: were talking about. Because they kept me to die. They

301
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,520
Speaker 2: never told me what went well or nothing. It just

302
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,480
Speaker 2: was just pushing me, pushing me on through their system.

303
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Speaker 2: You know, with the palm prints on top of the

304
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Speaker 2: garbage camp, you know, and taking it somewhere and then

305
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Speaker 2: coming back and asking questions in around about way, still

306
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Speaker 2: not explaining to me what this is all about. And

307
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Speaker 2: then the fact that I couldn't call anyone and no

308
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Speaker 2: one knew I was.

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Speaker 5: You're talking about during the interrogation. Yeah, how crazy is

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Speaker 5: it that they won't even tell you why you're there,

311
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Speaker 5: Like they're trying to drive you insane? Basically, because who

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Speaker 5: could withstand that type of a scenario on top of

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Speaker 5: everything else. At least if you knew what they were

314
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Speaker 5: charging it with, you could say, well, wait a minute,

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Speaker 5: you know on that day or whatever I mean. But

316
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Speaker 5: they wouldn't even give you that much information. So that's

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Speaker 5: a really horrible place to be in. And then comes

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Speaker 5: to trial.

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Speaker 2: Well, actually, as you speak about the tearrizing, imagine a

320
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Speaker 2: knock on the door, you foolishly step out, and then

321
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Speaker 2: you're handcuffed in that context and put into a police

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Speaker 2: car and take in fifteen miles.

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Speaker 10: Or you say foolishly. But you know, the thing is

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Speaker 10: most people are sort of raised and it sounds like

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Speaker 10: you were that the police are there to do the

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Speaker 10: right thing. So when they make a request of you

327
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Speaker 10: like that, you're not thinking maybe now you might think

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Speaker 10: I wouldn't think that.

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Speaker 1: Your thinking that.

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Speaker 10: If I step out the door, I'm probably going to

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Speaker 10: be handcuffed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a million miles no way I could have

333
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Speaker 1: figured that out.

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Speaker 10: And because you know where you were at that point

335
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Speaker 10: and in the military you were working, you thought, this

336
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Speaker 10: is what police do.

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Speaker 1: This is their.

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Speaker 10: Job to come around and ask some questions, not thinking

339
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Speaker 10: they're just going to whisk you away because somebody has

340
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Speaker 10: decided you look like a picture.

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Speaker 2: Now on top of that, now this is you know,

342
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Speaker 2: this might be hard to believe. To further make your

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Speaker 2: point about where are we when you're doing things like that.

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Speaker 2: As they was driving, I saw my brother in the car.

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Speaker 2: He's with his girl, and he was coming towards us

346
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Speaker 2: in a different direction. My hands are tapping behind my

347
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Speaker 2: back in the back seat and I'm trying to get

348
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Speaker 2: his attention, you know, and he's looking. I don't know

349
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Speaker 2: if he even saw me, but the police told me

350
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Speaker 2: say if he stopped, he going to jail too.

351
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Speaker 4: I mean, that's a randomness thing.

352
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Speaker 2: This is I mean, this is this is literally how

353
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Speaker 2: it happened, how it started out.

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Speaker 5: I didn't want to talk about that trial and that moment.

355
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Speaker 5: You go through the trial and then the jury goes out.

356
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Speaker 5: Now you're in a situation that is I think impossible

357
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Speaker 5: for anyone to imagine. What did you think they were

358
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Speaker 5: going to say? Did you think that they were going

359
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Speaker 5: to get to the truth?

360
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Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's funny that the process it self

361
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,240
Speaker 2: wears you down, you know, because you would get a

362
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Speaker 2: court date, okay, and so when you had to go

363
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Speaker 2: before the judge four in the morning, they would stop

364
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Speaker 2: knocking your door until you get ready. And you're going

365
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Speaker 2: through the jail system, and you start off at four

366
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Speaker 2: in the morning, and then by the time you get

367
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Speaker 2: to the bullpen to where you are and they come

368
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Speaker 2: get you from there and take you right into the courtroom.

369
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Speaker 2: They did that almost ten times, waking me up four

370
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Speaker 2: in them on the court case. As soon as I

371
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,719
Speaker 2: get there before the judge, nothing is really said at

372
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Speaker 2: all continues, which means put them back in the bullfen,

373
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Speaker 2: send him right back to the part of the jail

374
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Speaker 2: where he's located.

375
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Speaker 1: And they did that over ten times.

376
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Speaker 2: It where is you down? And my point is you

377
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,840
Speaker 2: just want it to be over. Of course I want

378
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Speaker 2: to be found innocent, but I'm going through the process.

379
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,199
Speaker 2: I know that they are railroading me. I know what

380
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,720
Speaker 2: they're doing, and there's nowhere for me to stop. It's

381
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,119
Speaker 2: like a train that you just cannot stop.

382
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Speaker 5: On those days when they would wake you up at four,

383
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Speaker 5: did they give you breakfast? Did they give you coffee?

384
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Speaker 5: Or they just took you and you're just sort of

385
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:17,800
Speaker 5: there on an empty stomach.

386
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Speaker 1: Well, you would get breakfast along the way.

387
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Speaker 2: Something you get breakfast along the way, then you would

388
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Speaker 2: if you're still there, if you're still on your way

389
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Speaker 2: or you're still waiting to see the judge, they would

390
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,439
Speaker 2: give you a blooney sandwich, which is like a piece

391
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Speaker 2: of horse meat with two slices of bread wrapped in

392
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Speaker 2: some cellarphan But at one point that even tastes good.

393
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Speaker 1: It's just it's a it's a hell of a situation

394
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Speaker 1: to be.

395
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Speaker 10: In the process is very dehumanizing.

396
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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, all the way through.

397
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Speaker 5: So you finally get to court and you finally get

398
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Speaker 5: your day in court. And it goes back to my

399
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,520
Speaker 5: question when the jury went out, were you optimistic, were

400
00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 5: you pessimistic?

401
00:19:58,440 --> 00:19:59,320
Speaker 4: What did you think?

402
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,640
Speaker 2: Well, but I guess the easiest way to explain it

403
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,159
Speaker 2: is you kind of know what they have done and

404
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,879
Speaker 2: what they're doing that you are aware of, and no

405
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 2: one else except the people who are doing it to you,

406
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 2: you know, you being rare road, and so you kind

407
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,320
Speaker 2: of just go through the process. You hope that you

408
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 2: found innocent, but you know the odds are against you,

409
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,439
Speaker 2: and you just give in to it.

410
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 1: You just are going to accept whatever they say.

411
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,399
Speaker 2: If you find innocing, of course you're gonna be happy

412
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,280
Speaker 2: as anybody on this earth. But I mean to be

413
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,879
Speaker 2: wrung through the system like that so long for a

414
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 2: period of a year, and then you know the way

415
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,360
Speaker 2: it happened, being kiddnapped from your home, and it.

416
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,920
Speaker 1: Just was it was. I guess the word would be surreal.

417
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,600
Speaker 2: It can't be explained how you feel, but it would

418
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,800
Speaker 2: be like anyone else who has been called in the

419
00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,680
Speaker 2: situation where you can't really articulate what going on your

420
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,960
Speaker 2: mind because you're feeling everything. You feeling the hurt, you're feeling,

421
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,679
Speaker 2: the pain, you feeling the realism of being hopeless in

422
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:13,160
Speaker 2: a situation that's hopeless, and it's just hard to describe.

423
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,960
Speaker 2: But when it came back and said I was guilty.

424
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 2: I was broken heart, you know. I felt bad for myself.

425
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 2: I feel bad that my family was broke up and

426
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 2: sad for me. But they never gave up, you know,

427
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 2: and they didn't want me to see their pain, and

428
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 2: I didn't want to see my pain. So they had

429
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:34,920
Speaker 2: done all they could, and I knew it was hurt

430
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,239
Speaker 2: because they couldn't They couldn't fix it.

431
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 5: So you were with no evidence, no physical evidence of

432
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,399
Speaker 5: any kind, in fact, physical evidence that proved that you

433
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 5: couldn't have been the guy. But of course they didn't

434
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 5: introduce that a trial, right They didn't introduce the fingerprints

435
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,920
Speaker 5: that didn't match, they didn't introduce the blood that didn't match.

436
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 5: They probably didn't talk much about the fact that you

437
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:54,680
Speaker 5: couldn't have been the guy because you didn't.

438
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 4: Magically grow a beard. And that's a pretty easy.

439
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 5: Thing for someone to say that you're clean shaven, or

440
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,480
Speaker 5: I mean, somebody makes up eye caller. That can mix

441
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 5: up some other characteristics, but it's hard to mix up

442
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 5: a guy with a beard, but a guy with no

443
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 5: beard or go tee in your case.

444
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 2: But when you have a judge that's instrumental in the process,

445
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,399
Speaker 2: and he was very instrumental, because there was questions that

446
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 2: he should have asked himself, you know, asked how this

447
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,919
Speaker 2: was going and what they were saying, I mean to

448
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 2: take a blood test in the middle of the process

449
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:25,680
Speaker 2: of me going back and forth to court, and then

450
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 2: when we go before the court to hit her the

451
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 2: outcome of the laboratory test a comparison test. Their answer

452
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 2: was inconclusive, and no one said anything. All they say

453
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 2: was inconclusive. But I was smart to realize that, how's

454
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 2: it inconclusive? How can it be?

455
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,399
Speaker 1: I don't know? And that's basically what that meant. We

456
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 1: don't know.

457
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 2: When then, what did you compare it to? It was

458
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 2: called a comparison test. The judge didn't say he accepted inconclusive.

459
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,640
Speaker 2: The prosecutor was the one saying inconclusive, and my lawyer

460
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 2: accept an inconclusive.

461
00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 4: Well, you guys all made the same mistake.

462
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 5: You forgot the pay off the judge right, that would

463
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 5: have solved that problem, That would have been real conclusive.

464
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 5: In prison, you went through a really dark time when

465
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 5: your father died, and how you turned that into a positive,

466
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 5: how you found whatever that inner strength was that really

467
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 5: allowed you to survive and keep hope alive.

468
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 4: How did that work?

469
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 1: Well, you know, that was that was a tough time.

470
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 2: Was I think that was one of the toughest times,

471
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 2: you know, in my life, because no one in my

472
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 2: immediate family had ever died, and under the circumstances of

473
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 2: me being locked up.

474
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 1: Man, it was a heavy load. You know.

475
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 2: Once I heard that not only did he die, they

476
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 2: didn't tell me till three days later. For some reason,

477
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,680
Speaker 2: the information didn't get to me, I said, few days later.

478
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 2: So so I never I never really knew, you know,

479
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 2: knew the circumstances and all of that. But eventually, when

480
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 2: I overcame that pain, then picked up the pieces because

481
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 2: I was really giving up at that point. So I

482
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,959
Speaker 2: said to myself, you know what, I'm gonna clear my

483
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 2: father's name. It's not my name now, it's my father's name.

484
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 2: I motivated myself by telling myself that this was work

485
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 2: for him. This is I'm gonna continue with the rest

486
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 2: of this bit to free myself and clear his name

487
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 2: and letting his name be my motivating force. And that's

488
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 2: what I did on the second half of that bit. Man,

489
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 2: it was all about my father ain't cleaning his name?

490
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 4: And your mom had a lot to do with that, right.

491
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 2: My mother, while I was in jail when this whole

492
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 2: thing started, I called on the phone and she said,

493
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 2: you know what, son, you sound like you depressed. Actually

494
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 2: she calls me little Jerry because I'm my father's.

495
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: Name, you know, Junior.

496
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 2: So she said, little Jerry, Look, when you get off

497
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 2: this phone, I want you to pick up a book

498
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,199
Speaker 2: and started reading a book, a newspaper I want you

499
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 2: to read. And I was so confused about the situation

500
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 2: I found myself in that I took her literally. I said,

501
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 2: you know what, if I can't trust nobody, I could

502
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 2: trust my mother. So when I got off the phone,

503
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,479
Speaker 2: I literally walked up to this guy and said, you're

504
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 2: reading that book. Let me read that book. Let me

505
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 2: check that out when you get through. Said no, you

506
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 2: can get it right now. I took that book and

507
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 2: I started reading.

508
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 4: What book was that?

509
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 2: I can't tell you what it was, just you know,

510
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 2: it was just a book. And you know I wasn't

511
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 2: I didn't read swell, you know, because I used to

512
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: tell the truth skip school all of that. I wasn't

513
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 2: a bad kid, but you know, I was always wanted

514
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 2: to do something that I'm not supposed to do, and

515
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 2: so I didn't do what I needed to do.

516
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: So when I started reading, I said to myself, damn.

517
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 2: You really need to be read. So I read things

518
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 2: that I liked. That's how I started. I started reading

519
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 2: things I like to read, entertaining things or whatever. And

520
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 2: I think I read before I even left the gail.

521
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 2: I think I read over one hundred books.

522
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 4: And not only did you read one hundred books, you

523
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 4: wrote hundreds of letters.

524
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's another thing. I used to write a

525
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 2: letter and she was say, you know what, your spelling

526
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 2: is pretty bad. That's my mother, she would say, and

527
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 2: your writing is not too good either, And I took

528
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,479
Speaker 2: that literally. So from another suggestion from my mother, I

529
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 2: started keeping the dictionary right there in hand. So anytime

530
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 2: I wrote a letter, I made sure every word was

531
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 2: spelt right.

532
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 1: You know.

533
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 2: If I wrote, if it didn't look neat or presentable,

534
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 2: I redo it. So eventually she would write back, she say,

535
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 2: your writing is much better, and it's funny. I just

536
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 2: hearing them words from her made me want to do

537
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 2: even better, you know.

538
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 5: And then you wrote letters to lawyer after lawyer after organization,

539
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 5: or to anybody that might be able to help me.

540
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was writing food. They give you they a lot,

541
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 2: you three free letters a month, but I also would

542
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 2: buy my own pre stamp. I would take a book

543
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,959
Speaker 2: and just write, write the letters and send it to

544
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 2: everybody in the book.

545
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 5: And that's an interesting thing too, right, because your case

546
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 5: wasn't taken up by any of these firms or organizations

547
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 5: that you wrote to. And I can understand that. I mean,

548
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 5: everybody's busy. Everybody gets a lot of letters. Nobody knows

549
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 5: you and knows if you're innocent or guilty or whatever.

550
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 5: But you got to keep trying. And Marie, can you

551
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 5: talk about that, like the role that law firms and

552
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 5: organizations like the Instance project play in this scenario.

553
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 10: That's an interesting question because when you kind of boil

554
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 10: it down, it's a matter of triage because there's so

555
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 10: many letters, there's so many people. Innocence projects in this

556
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 10: country typically won't even look at a case unless the

557
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 10: person has at least five years left in their sentence,

558
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 10: because they want to get to the people with the

559
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 10: longer sentences, and it takes a while to get these

560
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 10: cas is undone. And so that's why I mean Trioche,

561
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 10: just to tell you a little bit about Jerry's and

562
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,239
Speaker 10: my relationships. I had been writing about wrongful convictions at

563
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 10: the Chicago Tribune and Barry called me and said, we're

564
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 10: going to have an exoneration coming up in the next

565
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 10: couple of days in Chicago. Barry Shock, and we're going

566
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 10: to be out there. It's going to be the two

567
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 10: hundred DNA exoneration in the country. So it's a big deal.

568
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 10: You know, a number means something. And so he was

569
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 10: telling me a little bit about it, and I said,

570
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 10: you know, and most of these cases the person is

571
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 10: still locked up. When he said that Jerry had been freed,

572
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 10: I said, I'd like to go interview him and write

573
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 10: a story that appears the day that he's going to

574
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 10: be in court. So it kind of gives me a

575
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 10: bit of a scoop, but it also gives me a

576
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 10: sense of who this man is to go talk to him.

577
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 10: And in writing stories about people are wrongfully convicted, I'm

578
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 10: always have been astonished, encouraged and curious of how do

579
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 10: they manage this. It's hard enough to do the time

580
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 10: if you're guilty, but when you didn't do it, how

581
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 10: do you put one foot in front of another? And

582
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 10: for twenty five years, I wanted to meet this man,

583
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 10: and so we arranged to meet. I drove down South

584
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 10: suburb and introduced myself and one of the first things

585
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 10: he said to me was I wrote to you and

586
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 10: you never wrote back. And I did not remember that, frankly,

587
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 10: because I get a lot of letters, and I was embarrassed.

588
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 10: I mean, he said it, and it wasn't like you know,

589
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 10: and for that reason, I'm not going to talk to you.

590
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 10: We had a great interview and he really impressed me

591
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 10: with his faith, how he had managed to maneuver through

592
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 10: what seems to be you know, you talk about all

593
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 10: the times you're coming to court, and it just after

594
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 10: a while, the inevitability wears you down to the point where,

595
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 10: I mean, you understand why people plead guilty to crimes

596
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 10: that they didn't do, because it's like, I can't get

597
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 10: out of this. So you take the best deal you

598
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 10: possibly can, and you hope you can manage to sort

599
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 10: it out later or get through it. So to bring

600
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 10: this full circle, Jerry tells me, I wrote.

601
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: To you and you never wrote back.

602
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 10: And so I went back to my office and I

603
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 10: find the file and in there is his letter. So

604
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 10: I gave it back to him, and it changed me

605
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 10: in the way that I would look at cases and

606
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 10: deciding whether to work on them or not. There's a

607
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 10: real human being behind that letter. And so I never

608
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 10: ever didn't write back to anyone who wrote to me

609
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 10: from then.

610
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: On, not to cut you off, but I just wanted

611
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: you to understand.

612
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: When you came and to that business office that day

613
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 2: and I said, I looked at you and I said,

614
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 2: you probably don't remember me, but I wrote you, and

615
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 2: you never wrote me back. When I said that, I

616
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 2: was happy. I was happy because I had already been

617
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 2: told that in a little while you're going to be

618
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 2: generated and all the lads will be told will be

619
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 2: washed away. But I was actually happy, and I just

620
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 2: knew that what I was doing was letting you know

621
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: that you missed the school.

622
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 10: Well I did, indeed, and you're right, you weren't like

623
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 10: I hope you burn in hell for the rest of

624
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 10: your life. Know you were very generous and about it,

625
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 10: and I was so thankful that you did, because it

626
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 10: enabled me to see to realize that behind every letter

627
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 10: there is a human being and a face and a

628
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 10: real life. And that changed me as a person.

629
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 5: And so you ended up serving basically twenty five years,

630
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 5: including the time in jail, about a year in jail

631
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 5: and then twenty pen roll.

632
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: You know that was about a year.

633
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 5: Right, So that's the part I want to get to.

634
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 5: So finally you serve your time and your parole and

635
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 5: then you're out. But things got real grim. I don't

636
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 5: think a lot of people focus on the stigma and

637
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 5: the trauma that's associated with coming out and then being

638
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 5: a prisoner in your own home and being looked down

639
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 5: upon and mistreated by society in so many different ways.

640
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 5: And I want to get into that because it's important

641
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 5: for people to realize. I mean, we have almost a

642
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 5: million people as registered sex offenders in this country, which

643
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 5: is ridiculous.

644
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 4: Can you talk about that? You come out and then what.

645
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 2: Well, Actually, when they released me from the penitentiary, I

646
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 2: was happy than I've ever been in about twenty six years,

647
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 2: twenty five years. For a period of time, getting from

648
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 2: the penitentiary itself to my home where I would be

649
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,719
Speaker 2: located at.

650
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: I was free.

651
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 2: I was literally free, no parole offs, nothing, I was free,

652
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 2: moving freely, going to the store first time. The first

653
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 2: thing I bought when I was free was it might

654
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 2: sound crazy, but I bought chocolate, milk and french.

655
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 4: Why.

656
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: I have no idea.

657
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 2: And I went to the store and I bought this

658
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: and I was eating and I was looking around. It's

659
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 2: just like I'd never done this before. I felt like,

660
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 2: I've never done this before.

661
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 4: Who are you with?

662
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: I was by myself. You came out and they give

663
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: you some of thewhare that's it?

664
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 2: Some of thewhere I don't know how much money they

665
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 2: gave me, but I had money. And so when they

666
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 2: dropped me off at the wherever they dropped you off at,

667
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 2: I went into the store and I'm looking around on

668
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 2: trying to decide.

669
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: It was too many things to decide from.

670
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 2: So I decided on French fries and choked the milk

671
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 2: and I sat there eating it, just looking around like

672
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: like I've never been in the store before, never been

673
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: free before. And when it hit me that, you know what,

674
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 2: Now I catch the bus and I get to see

675
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 2: my family. So I go through that process, but I

676
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 2: was just all I can say is I was happy.

677
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: But that changed real quick talk about that, Okay, by

678
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 2: the time I reached my mother's home, because along the

679
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: way I ended up my brother picked me up at

680
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 2: ninety fifth at the bus stop.

681
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: He took me to my cousin's house.

682
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 2: Then from there we went to a brother's house and

683
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 2: from there we went to my mother's house. But the

684
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 2: next morning, the parole officer showed up with the police

685
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 2: knocked on the door like they was trying to break in.

686
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 2: So I asked the door and like I said, the

687
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 2: happiness was over here because I was faced with parole

688
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 2: officers aggressive, police officers aggressive, and they told me you

689
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 2: got to go over to this police station and as

690
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 2: a sex officer. But prior to me doing that, they

691
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 2: had me in the backseat of a car and then

692
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 2: they said, look, you have to sign this paper. They

693
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 2: explained it if I'm not mistaken as classes to go to.

694
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 2: It was a new law that wasn't implemented when I

695
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 2: first got convicted, and through all the years I was

696
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 2: locked up, they came with this law, which is the

697
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 2: sexest Offender Registration. So because it wasn't part of my incarceration,

698
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,919
Speaker 2: they said, look, if you don't sign that paper, we're

699
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 2: gonna take your ass right back to the penitential. And

700
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 2: I was like, this can't be real. You know, I

701
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 2: don't want to sign it. And I don't want to

702
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 2: go back, and I really didn't know what I was

703
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 2: going to be faced with. I signed the paper to

704
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 2: be free. But when I signed that paper, the inencnserration,

705
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 2: the humiliation started, all of it.

706
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,439
Speaker 4: And here you were faced with signing a piece of paper.

707
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 5: It almost goes back to the beginning, right, signing a

708
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 5: piece of paper without a lawyer, without anybody to advise you,

709
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 5: but under threat of something that you obviously could not

710
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 5: deal with.

711
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, how would you how do you send yourself back

712
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: to the pintention.

713
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,879
Speaker 5: You don't, I mean, you sign anything at that point.

714
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 5: But so talk a little bit about that. Now you're

715
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 5: having to go to sex offender classes.

716
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 2: Right, let's deal with just going to the police station

717
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 2: and for the first time my life, being called a

718
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 2: sex offender and saying that I had to register. I'm

719
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 2: so dangerous, I'm so much of an animal that I

720
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 2: have to go to the police station and telling my

721
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 2: animal and this is where I live and they're going

722
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 2: to be watching me or whatever. You know that that

723
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 2: was humiliating on his face, And I know in my

724
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 2: heart I just did all this time that I shouldn't

725
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 2: have done in the first place.

726
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: And now here you are again in my face, telling

727
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: me you basically a piece of shit all over again, and.

728
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 5: You're basically locked up all over again because at this

729
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 5: point they put all these restrictions on you, where you

730
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 5: couldn't leave your house, you had to curfew, you had

731
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 5: to turn the house dark on Halloween in case any

732
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 5: kids showed up. You had all these, I mean a

733
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 5: million and one rules to follow. Ankle, bracelet, GPS. It's

734
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 5: so amazing to me that you were on the verge

735
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 5: of actually giving up right at a certain point, and

736
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 5: that's the day when things.

737
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's you know what. That's just going to show

738
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: you that my prayers will answer. Because when you're in

739
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: the penitentiary, whether you give your innocent, you're among people

740
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 2: like you, all of you, all of you have been convicted,

741
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 2: all of you been sinens, and this is the life

742
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: you're in right now. And so when you go home,

743
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 2: when you free, and you bring that stigma back. I

744
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 2: use the word make you feel like a piece of shit,

745
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: not to be vulgar, but to make you understand that

746
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 2: literally you feel like that's the way they look at

747
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 2: you because they try to avoid you when the truth

748
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 2: comes out that the legal system has said this and

749
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:51,959
Speaker 2: branded you that, but it's not real. It's not real

750
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 2: until you realize that this person is not even guilty.

751
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: It's a whole different scenario.

752
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 2: If you're guilty, he can carry his weight and people

753
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 2: accept him as being guilty and he moves on with

754
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:05,720
Speaker 2: his life.

755
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:06,879
Speaker 1: There's no confusion.

756
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 2: But it's a lot of confusion when you're innocent and

757
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 2: you carry that weight of someone that you're not.

758
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 5: And so your sort of prayers were answered when the

759
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 5: Innocence Project took your case and ultimately they were able

760
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 5: to find a slip that the victim had worn, right,

761
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 5: and they found the DNA on the slip, and then

762
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 5: the authorities allowed for that to be tested, and that

763
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 5: proved I'm getting the chills again. That proved without any

764
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 5: doubt that you were an innocent man who had been

765
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 5: wrong convicted, and it also identified the actual perpetrator right,

766
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 5: which happens a lot in these DNA cases, and sadly,

767
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 5: tragically another one of these cases in which the actual

768
00:38:49,640 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 5: perpetrator went on to commit other horrible crimes. Going back

769
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 5: to that happy moment, in that happy day when you

770
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 5: received a call from the Innocence Project telling you that

771
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 5: this was about to.

772
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 2: Be Yeah, it was an instant project. Attorney Columns. His

773
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 2: last name is Colin. I just called him Colin.

774
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: But he asked me, say, are you sitting down?

775
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 2: And said no. He said, well you need to sit down,

776
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 2: and so I sat down. I didn't know what he

777
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 2: was going to say, but he said, look, they ran

778
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 2: the test and you are innocent. They ran it through colder.

779
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 2: I think it's colds and they got a hit FB.

780
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,959
Speaker 2: So not only am I innocent, but to further prove

781
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 2: the point, we know who did it, you see, and

782
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 2: he's already locked up, you know, So that was like

783
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 2: no doubt at all.

784
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 4: What did you do?

785
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 2: I died everybody in my phone and it was a

786
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 2: you know, I hadn't really had a cell phone before.

787
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 2: It was one a flip phone, and I died everybody

788
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 2: in that phone, and my phone just died. It just

789
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 2: that I had. I was unaware that it was gonna die.

790
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 2: Just I'm talking to that because I'm telling everybody what

791
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 2: has just happened.

792
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 4: And people with people freaking out.

793
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were so they were so happy. They was

794
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,359
Speaker 1: screaming through the phone. I had to pull it away

795
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: from my ear.

796
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 4: Who was the first person you called, well.

797
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 2: The first person I called was my cousin that I

798
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 2: was living with. She was the immediate one. She was

799
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 2: the one who helped me and kept everything where I

800
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 2: wouldn't be exposed to a lot of the things that

801
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 2: you go through being incarcerated, not yet proving yourself innocent

802
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: and heard. She would always tell people my cousin. She

803
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 2: was stunt on that, and people believed her, and as

804
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 2: they got to know me, they believed me, and so

805
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,919
Speaker 2: life would be simple in that small circle. She even

806
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 2: went to neighbors and explaining them that I lived there,

807
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 2: because eventually, you know, through the police, they find out

808
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 2: that it's a sex offen of living, you know, on

809
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 2: their block. And so I ended up meeting all of

810
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 2: the neighbors on the block just about and through my

811
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: interactions they felt safe. Not word it kind of takes

812
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 2: the weight off, but you still have that plice thing

813
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 2: checking in and the pro thing, and it just.

814
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 1: Got too heavy for me at one point.

815
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 2: But getting back to that day, that day, I knew

816
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 2: that it was over with and it didn't matter what

817
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 2: anyone else thought. I knew that I had more than

818
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: just me in the.

819
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: Whole wide world. Saying I was innocent.

820
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 2: You know, it was the world had turned around now

821
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,720
Speaker 2: that not the world knew the truth.

822
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 10: That's the thing that when you talk to say we surprised,

823
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,879
Speaker 10: No I knew all along. It's everyone else that now

824
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 10: has that proof and doesn't have to take byword for it.

825
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: It's priceless. This priceless. That's huge.

826
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 5: And if you could see what I see now looking

827
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 5: at Jerry as he tells that part of the story,

828
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 5: it's everything you need to know about why we always

829
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 5: will continue to fight for innocence of people like yourself,

830
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 5: because it's an indescribable feeling to be around you, know

831
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,399
Speaker 5: you right now, to be honest with you and see

832
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 5: that expression on your face. So there was a there

833
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 5: was one more thing that has to happen, right, You

834
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 5: had to go back to court so they.

835
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 4: Could formally exonerate you, right, And that had to be

836
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 4: an incredible day.

837
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 5: Can you talk about that day and who you were

838
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 5: with and what was it sunny out?

839
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 4: Was it raining? What was the whole situation on.

840
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 2: That And I tell you what when I when I

841
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 2: received that phone call from Insurprisect from Collins, my whole

842
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 2: life changed.

843
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 1: My whole outlook changed.

844
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 2: As a person, I changed because you know, you're not

845
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 2: really whole yet. Remember now, I had been battling since

846
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 2: day one, screaming and telling everybody I could that I

847
00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 2: was innocent. But twenty six years you could take a

848
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 2: poll out of all the people that I met in

849
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 2: my life through that time, which side of the fence

850
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 2: they fell on.

851
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 1: I believe him or I do not believe him.

852
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 2: So you you know that it didn't matter no more

853
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 2: because night is the truth is out there.

854
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,879
Speaker 1: So the lot that they told is being exposed.

855
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 4: Take us through that day. Obviously, you didn't just take

856
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 4: your ankle brace itself.

857
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: That was that, you see.

858
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 2: Now, That's that was special too, because I had time

859
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 2: to prepare for it. I was going to church, you know,

860
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,399
Speaker 2: I would go to church every Sunday, and that kind

861
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 2: of kept me. It gave me some strength through them

862
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 2: hard times of being on parole. But when by the

863
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: time I've done that first interview, man, look, I was prepared,

864
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 2: you know, I was ready for what was going to happen.

865
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 1: I knew that I was going to go for.

866
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 2: The judge, and the judge was going to say you're innocent,

867
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 2: And I knew this was coming, so everybody was getting ready.

868
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 2: It had the suits out, you know, the car gassed up,

869
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 2: so it was like a caravan that went down to

870
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 2: twenty sixth of California. I was like a horse ready

871
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: to come out and run the race.

872
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 1: You know. I couldn't wait.

873
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 2: And when I walked in there, they had to know

874
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 2: something was happening because I was smiling, like I'm smiling now.

875
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: And so I went through the metal detecting all that.

876
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 2: We all went through and you know, waited for my

877
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 2: name to be called, went before the judge, and she

878
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 2: was smiling too. She was happy because she knew what

879
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 2: she was getting ready to do. And a lot of

880
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 2: people were saying, what's going on, what's going on? You

881
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 2: know people I didn't know this, People that's waiting for

882
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 2: their cases to be heard.

883
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: What's all this? What's going on? I went for the

884
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:38,439
Speaker 1: judge and they got to.

885
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 2: Hear what was going and by the time I turned around,

886
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 2: everybody was clapping a cheering.

887
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 4: What did she say?

888
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 2: She basically said, you are free, you're innocent, and you know,

889
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 2: going about your life and I wish you well.

890
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 4: And then did you ever get an apology?

891
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 2: Well, actually, by the time I got out of the court.

892
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 2: Remember so many people out there. Like I said, everybody

893
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 2: started to see what was going on. I'm innocent. He

894
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 2: just got proven innocent, and so everybody just got involved.

895
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 2: People I didn't even know. They just was happy because

896
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 2: they realized because I brought a crowd with me. You know,

897
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: I had like twenty twenty five family members following me around.

898
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 2: And so we went upstairs to the Prosecutors lawl Ibery

899
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 2: I think it was, I remember I was there before that.

900
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 2: We went into the office and we had a round

901
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 2: table meeting between the City of Chicago turns and they

902
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 2: apologized for the first time inside closed doors, and they

903
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 2: put the file down and they said, look, this is

904
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 2: the guy. I think they said, you're gonna bring like

905
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 2: three family members. I brought like five, and my pastor

906
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 2: went in there with me. Was aus in that table

907
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 2: and they was like, once they sought up, it was like,

908
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 2: he looks nothing nice.

909
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

910
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 2: So getting back to the identification, he looks nothing like

911
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 2: that man in that picture.

912
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 10: And that was what punched your ticket from the very beginning. Yes,

913
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 10: and then you cant who say, that's a compositive sketch

914
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 10: looks like the guy we saw and that. As you said,

915
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 10: the train left the station that day and it was

916
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 10: no stop.

917
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:13,240
Speaker 5: But so this glorious day happened and you were free.

918
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 5: And then I got the pleasure of seeing you speak

919
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 5: just a few days later, because you came to New

920
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 5: York for the NS project Gall I think it was

921
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 5: ten years ago, and you got up on stage. You

922
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 5: came to New York and this must have been a

923
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,959
Speaker 5: crazy whirlwind because you were on Colbert right.

924
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:30,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that was that was fun.

925
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,399
Speaker 2: But it's a backstory to that because when I got

926
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 2: the call and they were telling me that, you know,

927
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,439
Speaker 2: would you be interested? And I was like, why would

928
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 2: I go on a comedy show? Because I didn't know

929
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,399
Speaker 2: him at the time. How'd I go on a comedy show.

930
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 2: There's nothing funny.

931
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: About what happened to me. Why would I want to

932
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: go on that?

933
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,439
Speaker 2: And so they explained it to me, you know, the context,

934
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 2: and I said, okay, because you haven't feeled me yet,

935
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 2: you know, And so I went and I really realized

936
00:46:58,560 --> 00:46:59,399
Speaker 2: what it.

937
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:00,280
Speaker 1: Really was all about.

938
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 2: It worked out pretty well, the message you got out

939
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 2: because the innocent project.

940
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 1: Man.

941
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 2: Look, I tell them all the time that I feel

942
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 2: so grateful that they accepted what I was saying in

943
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 2: that letter, because all of the letters are not they

944
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 2: don't all of them don't going to the ya you know,

945
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:21,280
Speaker 2: Yes we will help do your case.

946
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: Yes, we will help you.

947
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 2: Some of them get process out for whatever reason, they

948
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:27,879
Speaker 2: can't take everybody.

949
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 5: There's just not enough time problem. I mean, that's one

950
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 5: of the resources. Resources.

951
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 2: That's what's the criteria, you know, whatever it is. It

952
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 2: actually it must work because it captured me, you know,

953
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 2: it allowed me to go through their process, which is

954
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 2: a long process. But they stuck with it and stuck

955
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 2: with it, and this is what the outcome is.

956
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're here today, right now, and so it's so

957
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 5: exciting because today is the day of the twenty fifth

958
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 5: anniversary of this is project that we're going to have

959
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 5: a big party tonight. You are going to be one

960
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 5: of the guests of honor and I'm looking for or

961
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 5: to that. You know, we have a tradition here un

962
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 5: wrong for conviction, which is that I like to ask

963
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 5: you if you have any final thoughts you want to

964
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 5: share with the audience, anything at all.

965
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 1: Well, all I can say is the n SUR project.

966
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,760
Speaker 2: The people that I've met that worked in in this project,

967
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 2: they took my case and I was helped to be

968
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 2: proven innocent. You know, I thank them because it was

969
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 2: the support that kept me on. I guess on my

970
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 2: trajectory to being a part of society again, because it's

971
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 2: a process assimilating back into society and really functioning and

972
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 2: living a good life, an important life, doing what you

973
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 2: can for other people, and just being the person that

974
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 2: you are. You know, I thank the inn a Surproject

975
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 2: for that.

976
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 1: And I still.

977
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 2: Believe that the work that they're doing is God's work.

978
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 2: Somebody has to believe in the people who are screen

979
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 2: out for help. Everybody is not going to be found innocent.

980
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 2: It might not work for everybody, but those who can

981
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 2: be saved. You have to continue to do that. And

982
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 2: when I speak about my story, I hope that people

983
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 2: become interested and play a role in some kind of way,

984
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,879
Speaker 2: because it's important, it's real me personally. I don't think

985
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 2: there's anything wrong with the legal system. I think we

986
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 2: have the best legal system. It's just the people that

987
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 2: implement it. They get lost along the way and forget

988
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 2: what their job really is. If the right people can

989
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 2: take the jobs and do the right thing and care

990
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 2: about what they're doing instead of trying to benefit from it.

991
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: You know, maybe it'll work a little better once again.

992
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 2: I'm just I'm happy when I think about where I've

993
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 2: come from, you know, I'm just and I'm happy to

994
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 2: be in New York.

995
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 5: I like me, Well, we're happy to have you, and

996
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 5: I want to pick up on what you're saying. And

997
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 5: I always ask the audience inta, get involved, and you

998
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,720
Speaker 5: can get involved. The good people at Chicago recently voted

999
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 5: out a bad prosecutor the bad da actually right, and

1000
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 5: voted in a wonderful one. So I think we're going

1001
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 5: to see some big changes there. And that's one thing

1002
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 5: you can do. Another thing you can do is go

1003
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,240
Speaker 5: to Innocence Project dot org. Go to your local innocence project,

1004
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 5: write letters.

1005
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: I mean, just be nosy. What is this thing called exoneration?

1006
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 4: You learn about it, what these people have.

1007
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: Been exonerating, you know.

1008
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 2: To get example, I was in the bank in New

1009
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 2: York and I was talking to one of the Tellisens.

1010
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 1: She just she said, I'm not trying to be nosy,

1011
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 1: but what's going on? You know? And I explained it

1012
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,399
Speaker 1: to her. She she was like, you know, I did

1013
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 1: hear something.

1014
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 2: About it, but I didn't follow up, but since I

1015
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 2: met you, I think I will, and so I told

1016
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,919
Speaker 2: her about the INN project. I should just go check

1017
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 2: it out and see, you know, and you'll find out

1018
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 2: that when people at least put in an effort to

1019
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 2: find out what's really going on with these exigner reads

1020
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 2: this thing called otovation, you know, they become interested because

1021
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 2: most people are good people and they don't want no

1022
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 2: one mistreated unfairly, and they do whatever they can do,

1023
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 2: whether it's a donation or just speak about it in

1024
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 2: front of people who might be in jeopardy of that happening.

1025
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 4: In the Maurice.

1026
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 10: Any last words, Well, Jerry makes some really good points

1027
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 10: about awareness in Sunshine, But my job on a daily

1028
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:30,320
Speaker 10: basis is to chronicle cases like Jerry's for the National

1029
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 10: Registry of Exoneration. Jerry was the two hundredth DNA exoneration

1030
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 10: just this past recently there was the three hundred and

1031
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 10: fiftieth DNA exoneration. The National Registry has more than two

1032
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 10: thousand exonerations since nineteen eighty nine. These are non DNA

1033
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:52,479
Speaker 10: and DNA. To raise the awareness in the public's eye

1034
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:57,359
Speaker 10: about these cases can only create the sort of sunshine

1035
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 10: I think that well produce change within the criminal justice system.

1036
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 5: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

1037
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 5: get your podcasts.

1038
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 4: It really helps.

1039
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 5: And I'm a proud donor to the Nocence Project and

1040
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,399
Speaker 5: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

1041
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 5: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

1042
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 5: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and

1043
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 5: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

1044
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 5: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

1045
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 5: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

1046
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 5: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

1047
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 5: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm

1048
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,839
Speaker 5: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association

1049
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 5: with Signal Company Number one