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Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,

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Speaker 1: and today we're talking effective altruism and Giving Well with

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Speaker 1: Ellie Hasenfeld.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so here are the pod, and honestly, in our

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Speaker 2: personal lives as well, we are always looking for the

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Speaker 2: most bang for our buck, and I'm sure you do

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Speaker 2: the same thing. Right Like when you're looking at toilet

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Speaker 2: paper at the grocery store, you are. You're likely glancing

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Speaker 2: over at the cosper unit. When you're trying to decide

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Speaker 2: between two job offers, you're considering, of course pay, but

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Speaker 2: you're also taking into account if they have a four

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Speaker 2: to one k with a match. We are constantly optimizing

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Speaker 2: our lives in order to gain the most value. But

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Speaker 2: are we doing the same thing with the money that

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Speaker 2: we're giving away to charity? Maybe we are, but maybe

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Speaker 2: or not. That's why we're excited to discuss effective altruism

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Speaker 2: with our guest, Ellie Hasenfeld today. It's not something we've

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Speaker 2: discussed before. Ellie is the co founder of Give Well.

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Speaker 2: It is a nonprofit that searches for charities that saves

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Speaker 2: or improves the most lives possible per dollar. Ellie, thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for joining us today to talk about

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Speaker 2: effective altruism. What it is that y'all do.

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Speaker 3: Thanks guys, it's awesome to be here.

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Speaker 1: Ellie. We're really excited for this conversation. And the first

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Speaker 1: question that we ask anybody who comes on is what

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Speaker 1: do you like to splour? John Batt and I we

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Speaker 1: suplourge on craft beer. We buy the good stuff, but

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Speaker 1: we're still at the same time saving and investing for

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Speaker 1: our future. What's that for you? You're handling money wisely,

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Speaker 1: but you're also spending a ridiculous amount, maybe in one

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Speaker 1: specific area.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So the fan sporgeing on right now is indoor

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Speaker 4: ski lessons, and let me just explain that sounds great.

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Speaker 4: Let me just explain what that is.

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Speaker 1: Do you have to go to Dubai for that?

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Speaker 3: No, you go to.

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Speaker 4: Downtown San Francisco and you go on a giant inclined

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Speaker 4: treadmill which you can learn to ski on. And the reason,

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Speaker 4: I'll tell the backstory, which is my wife grew up

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Speaker 4: she's a big skier. She always wanted me to ski,

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Speaker 4: never learned how to ski. A year ago we went skiing.

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Speaker 4: I finally learned. We ski together, and by learned, I

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Speaker 4: mean I'm able to get down the mountain now without dying.

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Speaker 4: I'm not athletics, so it took a lot of work

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Speaker 4: for me to get there. I came back from that

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Speaker 4: trip and my friends said, you know what to ski. Let's,

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Speaker 4: you know, take a trip together. And we went up

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Speaker 4: Toake Tahoe, which is near where I live in the

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Speaker 4: Bay Area. And on the second day, I fell, broke

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Speaker 4: my shoulder, separated my shoulder.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't doing anything cool. I just literally.

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Speaker 4: Am imbalanced and unathletic, and so as I'm thinking about

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Speaker 4: the winter coming up, It's like, how can I do

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Speaker 4: this not kill myself? And so found this place in

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Speaker 4: downtown San Francisco that does indoor ski lessons. I have

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Speaker 4: done a couple of them. They're pretty expensive. My friends

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Speaker 4: who ski think it is crazy and a splurge because

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Speaker 4: they don't believe it's going to work. You can find

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Speaker 4: videos on YouTube if you want to see what this

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Speaker 4: is about. But I am committed. I think this is

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Speaker 4: the path to ski success for me.

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Speaker 1: All right. I love it. Honestly.

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Speaker 2: It reminds me I remember skiing for the first time

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Speaker 2: as a kid and then coming home and that next

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Speaker 2: summer I got into rollerblading. This is back during like

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Speaker 2: the roller hockey craze in the mid to late nineties.

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Speaker 2: But I felt like the next time I went back

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Speaker 2: to the mountain, I felt like I was so good

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Speaker 2: because just like that parallel turning. And I don't know

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Speaker 2: all that to say, I don't know, maybe some inline

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Speaker 2: skates could do you some good.

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Speaker 3: Nintend oldever does that much from her?

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Speaker 1: All right?

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Speaker 2: Plus you get that quality time with her as well,

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Speaker 2: little both and well, thank you for sharing that, Ellie.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about give well.

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Speaker 2: Before we kind of broaden the scope of the conversation

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Speaker 2: now to effective altruism. Like it seems that like the

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Speaker 2: best things are invented out of either a personal need

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Speaker 2: or a pain point that you might be experiencing. That's

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Speaker 2: actually your story with founding give Will. Can you can

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Speaker 2: you share that story with our listeners.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Right out of college, I went to work at a

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Speaker 4: hedge fund, and after being there for a few years,

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Speaker 4: I was doing all the basic things that I needed

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Speaker 4: to with my friends, saving a little bit, putting money

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Speaker 4: away for retirement, but still had a little bit extra

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Speaker 4: and a few friends and I wanted to give money

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Speaker 4: to charity and just to give some context on giving charitably.

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Speaker 4: If you take home thirty thousand dollars after tax, you're

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Speaker 4: in the top five percent of the global income distribution.

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Speaker 3: Wow. You know, we often think about the US or.

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Speaker 4: UK high income countries, but if you're at that thirty

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Speaker 4: thousand dollars level after tax, you're in the top five percent.

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Speaker 4: If you're at the sixty thousand dollars post tax, you're

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Speaker 4: in the top one percent globally.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And so we wanted.

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Speaker 4: To give money away and help people who were less fortunate.

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Speaker 4: At the time, we thought we would just go to Google,

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Speaker 4: search for charity and find great answers about which charities

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Speaker 4: are doing the most per dollar donated. But it turned

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Speaker 4: out it was really hard to get any information. There

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Speaker 4: are websites that focus on how much a charity spends

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Speaker 4: on overhead versus their program, which doesn't really tell you

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Speaker 4: anything about how effective the program is. So, as an example,

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Speaker 4: if you spend all your money on programs and say

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Speaker 4: you dig wells in Africa to provide clean water, but

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Speaker 4: the wells don't work or they fall into disrepair, it

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Speaker 4: doesn't matter that you spent one hundred percent of the

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Speaker 4: money on programs.

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Speaker 1: It's not effective.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't matter that you're a matter that you're efficient

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Speaker 2: at failing, You're you just you're better at doing that

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Speaker 2: failing exactly.

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Speaker 4: And so what we wanted to focus on was effectiveness.

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Speaker 4: And what we found, you know, way back when when

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Speaker 4: we were just trying to give some money away on

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Speaker 4: our own, was that this information wasn't out there.

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Speaker 3: And so after struggling to.

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Speaker 4: Find the information for a while, then becoming obsessed with

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Speaker 4: trying to find this information, I remember getting in trouble

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Speaker 4: at work because hold In Karnowski, who's my co founder,

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Speaker 4: and I would spend way too much time at the

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Speaker 4: office arguing about.

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Speaker 3: Charity and people are like, why are you doing this?

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Speaker 3: We have a job to do.

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Speaker 4: But eventually we decided to leave our jobs to try

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Speaker 4: to create the information resource that we wanted, which is

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Speaker 4: GiveWell and it we do research on charities. We focus

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Speaker 4: on charities and low income countries to places like Subsaharan Africa.

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Speaker 4: We put that research on our website, We have recommendations

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Speaker 4: on our website.

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Speaker 3: And the idea is.

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Speaker 4: To be the information resource that we were looking for

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Speaker 4: when we were trying to give to charity so many

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Speaker 4: years ago.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's awesome. I love

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Speaker 1: what you've been able to create and specifically out of

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Speaker 1: like not being able to find that resource. But there

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Speaker 1: are obviously like tons of different approaches to giving, right

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Speaker 1: like giving to organizations in your neighborhood or even my

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Speaker 1: least favorite giving when you're prompted to at the grocery stores.

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Speaker 1: That is something that happens sometimes too. Right. So why

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Speaker 1: in your book, why is helping people the most per

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Speaker 1: dollar donated? Why is that the gold standard of giving

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Speaker 1: in your book?

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Speaker 4: So I think, like anything, we want to get the

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Speaker 4: best deal with the money that we're spending. And when

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Speaker 4: I step back and say what do I most want

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Speaker 4: to accomplish with my charitable giving, it's helping others to

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Speaker 4: the greatest extent possible.

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Speaker 3: And that was our north.

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Speaker 4: Star and the decisions that we've made along the way

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Speaker 4: that have created the give well that exists today, which

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Speaker 4: is focused on organizations in poorer countries, has all been

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Speaker 4: devoted to that idea of let's try to help other

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Speaker 4: people as much as we possibly can.

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Speaker 1: At least talk about giving overseas. You mentioned subs of

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Speaker 1: hair in Africa. That's a big part of how you

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Speaker 1: do that right. So you mentioned how you make sixty k.

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Speaker 1: You're in the top one percent worldwide, So maybe giving

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Speaker 1: in America you're just not I mean, you don't give

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Speaker 1: to any organizations in America, right, because the problems overseas

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Speaker 1: are vastly bigger than what we're experiencing here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 4: When actually, when givebl got started, and this is back

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Speaker 4: in two thousand and seven, we were looking both at

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Speaker 4: organizations locally.

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Speaker 3: We were in New York City.

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Speaker 4: At the time, so we're looking at New York City

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Speaker 4: based organizations and then also organizations overseas. And one of

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Speaker 4: the things that we learned we did not know before

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Speaker 4: we went in. Maybe we showed up, but one of

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Speaker 4: the things we learned was that the needs are so

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Speaker 4: great overseas that a dollar can go so much further.

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Speaker 4: And just to give one statistic that might help people

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Speaker 4: get in touch with this, one of the types of

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Speaker 4: one are the types of programs that we support, our

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Speaker 4: programs that reduce mortality among children over five, sorry under five.

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Speaker 4: If you're born in a high income country, you have

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Speaker 4: children born in a high income country, you have a

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Speaker 4: very high chance of reaching their fifth birthday. So it's

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Speaker 4: very tragic when a child doesn't reach their fifth birthday.

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Speaker 4: That only happens one in two hundred births in low

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Speaker 4: income countries. Thirteen out of two hundred children who are

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Speaker 4: born don't make it to their fifth birthday. So more

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Speaker 4: than ten times as many children die before they reach

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Speaker 4: that young age. And these are from causes like malaria, diarrhea, pneumonia.

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Speaker 4: They are preventable. We know because we do prevent them

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Speaker 4: in high income countries, and those opportunities in our view,

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Speaker 4: to avert deaths for roughly five thousand dollars is a deal,

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Speaker 4: quote unquote a deal that one you can achieve if

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Speaker 4: you donate overseas and you can't achieve that sort of

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Speaker 4: impact donating at home.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, again going back to getting the most bang

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Speaker 2: for your buck with the money given. And so as

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Speaker 2: you are evaluating different charities, I mean, this is which

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Speaker 2: I'll do over.

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Speaker 1: There, I give.

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Speaker 2: Well, but what specifically are you looking for? Are you

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Speaker 2: looking to those high mortality diseases like you mentioned pneumonia,

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Speaker 2: you mentioned malaria, like basically, how do you decide which

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Speaker 2: charities actually make the cut?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I think the big question that we're always trying to

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Speaker 4: answer and grapple with is how do you really know

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Speaker 4: what's happening ten thousand miles away? How do you really

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Speaker 4: know that the money you're giving is making a difference,

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Speaker 4: is making a big difference. And so there's two ways

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Speaker 4: that we really get at that question. The first is

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Speaker 4: there's a ton of research done on what programs work

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Speaker 4: to save or improve lives.

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Speaker 3: Some of these are the types of diseases that you mentioned.

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Speaker 4: Others are programs that aim to increase people's incomes so

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Speaker 4: they can buy more of.

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Speaker 3: The things that they need.

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Speaker 4: There's a huge amount of effort that's gone into this

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Speaker 4: in the academic community, from institutions like the World Bank.

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Speaker 4: The first thing we do is rely on that research

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Speaker 4: to help guide us towards the programs.

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Speaker 3: That are most effective.

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Speaker 4: And then separately, we're asking the charitable organizations that we're

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Speaker 4: considering to direct money to, and we ask them, what

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Speaker 4: data do you collect? How do you know that when

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Speaker 4: you say deliver a malaria net or you distribute a

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Speaker 4: cash transfer, then it reaches the person who needs it,

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Speaker 4: that they're using it in the way that you intend,

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Speaker 4: that they're able to do more than they otherwise would

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Speaker 4: because they got it, and we use those two pieces

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Speaker 4: of data. On one hand, that independent academic research that's

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Speaker 4: just a big body of information that's been created over

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Speaker 4: time in many people, and then the organization's specific data

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Speaker 4: about their own programming.

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Speaker 3: And we really home it on both of those.

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Speaker 4: We also put a lot of attention on what we

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Speaker 4: call room for more funding, which means asking the organization

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Speaker 4: how they will use additional funds and then checking back

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Speaker 4: after the fact to see how they did. And when

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Speaker 4: we put all that together, we're able to identify opportunities

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Speaker 4: that are outstanding and enable donors to just have a

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Speaker 4: huge impact with the dollars they give.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so, I guess there's a difference between dropping off

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Speaker 1: mosquito nets at the end at a village, like a

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Speaker 1: big box of one hundred of them or something, versus

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Speaker 1: ensuring that those actually get used right in a specific location.

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Speaker 1: So how are you vetting those things? Like you just

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Speaker 1: asking the charities, like relying on their word that they've

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Speaker 1: actually done the thing. Is it like picture documented proof?

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Speaker 1: How does that work?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So there's a lot of different things that happen

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Speaker 4: in each case, but it's a combination of understanding how

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Speaker 4: they collect data to ensure that the say the mosquito

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Speaker 4: nets or whatever the program is are getting delivered as needed,

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Speaker 4: and that can include independent evaluators, go back and checking,

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Speaker 4: includes photo documentation.

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Speaker 3: You know, we keep aiming to increase and improve.

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Speaker 4: The quality of that follow up, so you know, if

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Speaker 4: it's possible to do a you know, a GPS connected

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Speaker 4: monitoring of something that's distributed, to know that the person

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Speaker 4: who actually distributed is where you think they were at

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Speaker 4: the time. You know, all of that is one big

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Speaker 4: piece of it. And then on the side, we've also

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Speaker 4: over time done you know, gone ourselves and seeing the

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Speaker 4: programs on the ground where we get to uh talk

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Speaker 4: to staff, talk and see the people who are receiving

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Speaker 4: the program to ask them their experience with it.

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Speaker 3: Actually, many years ago we did this once.

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Speaker 4: We send a journalist out to literally try to dig

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Speaker 4: up dirt on the programs that we have recommended because

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Speaker 4: we were like, you know, let's just do whatever we can,

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Speaker 4: because we really want to. We know that these programs

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Speaker 4: are happening so far away, and we feel like it's

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Speaker 4: our job and our commitment to donors sure that we're

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Speaker 4: putting in a huge amount of effort to try and

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Speaker 4: find you know, where the programs are working, but also

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Speaker 4: where things might be going wrong.

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Speaker 3: Like we want to know if that's happening, so we

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Speaker 3: can address How.

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Speaker 1: Big of a problem is that in the charitable space

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Speaker 1: in the nonprofit space, Like how big of a problem

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Speaker 1: is it that people are donating money thinking it's going

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Speaker 1: to something and ultimately a lot of those dollars aren't

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Speaker 1: reaching their intended purpose or or they're just an effective program,

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Speaker 1: whether they're ineffective or like you said, maybe the well

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Speaker 1: doesn't work or whatever, like where it sounds so good

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Speaker 1: and there's this awesome promotional video, there's killer marketing, but

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Speaker 1: then on the back end, like there's inferior results.

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Speaker 4: So I think the truth is it's incredibly common that

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Speaker 4: we don't know, and that's the big problem.

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Speaker 3: Meaning people put money in and.

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Speaker 4: It's basically impossible to know in most cases what it's

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Speaker 4: actually doing. You know, back to my story, when I

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Speaker 4: was still working in the private sector, I wanted to

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Speaker 4: give to water charities and I remember calling up water

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Speaker 4: charities and they said twenty dollars provides a held water

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Speaker 4: for life, and I said, well, amazing, that sounds great.

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Speaker 4: How do you know that and what does that mean?

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Speaker 4: And they didn't have answers to those questions, and so

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Speaker 4: then that lack of information is what's common. I think, like,

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Speaker 4: let me just tell one quick story because I think

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Speaker 4: it illustrates the way that this often works. There was

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Speaker 4: an organization called play Pumps that started about fifteen years ago,

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Speaker 4: and it was this this this program that put in

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Speaker 4: a merry go round that doubled as a water pump.

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Speaker 4: And the idea was, you install this merry go round,

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Speaker 4: kids play on it. As they go playing on the merryground,

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Speaker 4: it's pumping water into this water towel.

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Speaker 3: Interesting, and it all seemed really.

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Speaker 4: Great, right, you get this like double benefit. People just

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Speaker 4: have water access. Before the play pump, they had to

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Speaker 4: like go to this small hand pump and spend thirty

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Speaker 4: seconds pumping up, you know, pumping the water to fill

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Speaker 4: the bucket. Now it's just available turning this bigot and

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Speaker 4: so this was like a great It won all these

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Speaker 4: awards from like it weren't a World Bank Development Award,

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Speaker 4: was sort of celebrated in the international aid space. But

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Speaker 4: after EVE being implemented in about a thousand locations, a

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Speaker 4: couple of guys just were walking around in Malawi where

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Speaker 4: they were, and they noticed that kids weren't playing on

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Speaker 4: the play pumps.

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Speaker 3: Instead, women in the communities and is often women in

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Speaker 3: these communities who have to.

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Speaker 4: Collect the water, were walking pushing this giant merry go

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Speaker 4: around in order to pump water. And the guys asked them, like,

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Speaker 4: what's happening. They said, well, kids don't play on these

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Speaker 4: things as often as they would need to, and so

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Speaker 4: now we need to push this play pump in order

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Speaker 4: to fill our water buckets. It turned out that the

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Speaker 4: organization had ripped out the hand pumps to put in

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Speaker 4: these play pumps, and so you couldn't even get the

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Speaker 4: old hand pump way of filling your bucket. You had

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Speaker 4: to do this crazy PlayPump thing. There's a great video

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Speaker 4: on YouTube where one of these guys in Malawi actually

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Speaker 4: tests how long it takes to fill a bucket with

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Speaker 4: a PlayPump versus a hand pump. When he does the

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Speaker 4: play pump, he's like going around and around in circles

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Speaker 4: and takes some two and a half minutes. At the

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Speaker 4: end he's totally wiped out, breathe heavily, so sweaty, and

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Speaker 4: then it compares with to the handpop. You know, twenty

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Speaker 4: eight seconds later it's filled up and he has clean water.

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Speaker 4: And this is just an exact This is the exception,

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Speaker 4: this story, and it's the exception because we know it failed.

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Speaker 4: The much more common dynamic is we have no idea,

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Speaker 4: and that's one of the places that we feel we're

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Speaker 4: able to really fill a major need.

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Speaker 3: In the sector.

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Speaker 4: You know, we're we are not evaluating everything, but we're

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Speaker 4: able to find programs that we believe have a huge impact,

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Speaker 4: and then we follow them up rigorously, and so we

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Speaker 4: feel very confident that they represent amazing opportunities for donors

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Speaker 4: to have impact because of that work up front, but

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Speaker 4: also the follow on after the fact to assess how

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Speaker 4: well they're working.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're doing great research, especially you are auditing and

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Speaker 2: vetting these charities to make sure that they make sense

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Speaker 2: for folks like us to give to. So we're talking about,

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Speaker 2: you know, funding charity specific charities. How is give Well funded?

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Speaker 2: How are y'all funded? Because I think I saw on

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Speaker 2: your side that it says you're not taking a cut

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Speaker 2: or a fee of the funds that get donated via

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Speaker 2: give well.

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 4: We're a nonprofit ourselves, and we're supported by donors. And

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Speaker 4: the donors who support us want to support us because

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Speaker 4: they value the fact that we're putting this information out

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Speaker 4: there in public. And you know, their philosophy is that

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Speaker 4: their donations to us are are highly leveraged in the

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Speaker 4: sense that by giving give well, you know, roughly let's

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Speaker 4: say five dollars to do the work we're doing, we're

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Speaker 4: able to help one hundred dollars be directed more effectively.

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Speaker 3: You know, that enables us to not charge a fee.

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Speaker 3: There's no paywall.

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Speaker 4: You know, if you went to our website, you could

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Speaker 4: read all our research, give wherever you want. You never

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Speaker 4: have to tell us about it. And we think that's

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Speaker 4: the best way to get information out there, because I

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Speaker 4: think appropriately people can be skeptical when they see someone

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Speaker 4: in the charity world asking for money, and so we're

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Speaker 4: very happy that we're able to just go to the

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Speaker 4: world and say, hey, this research is free, you want

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Speaker 4: to use it, go for it. You don't have to

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Speaker 4: give us anything because that's taken care of by people

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Speaker 4: who really support.

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Speaker 1: Our mission, Okay, and what charities have made the cut

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Speaker 1: the give will because I think currently you guys are

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Speaker 1: working alongside for charities. So it's not like you're spreading

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Speaker 1: this money across hundreds or dozens even of different charities.

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Speaker 1: How does a charity rise? And can you tell us

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Speaker 1: maybe about some of the charities that you're currently partnered with.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So there's two types of organizations that we direct

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Speaker 4: money to. There are what we call top charities, and

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Speaker 4: there are four of those, and I'll tell you about those.

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Speaker 4: And then there are also organizations that haven't met that

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Speaker 4: bar yet but we think are really promising but really

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Speaker 4: pretty risky, and we also direct money to them, but

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Speaker 4: it's not where we recommend most owners give because they're

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Speaker 4: riskier and we think, I don't know, new.

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Speaker 3: Folks should give to the more straightforward options.

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Speaker 4: The top charities are sort of like the investing analogy

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Speaker 4: might be the blue chip organizations. They're the ones that

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Speaker 4: have a strong record, strong track record, really strong evidence,

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Speaker 4: and in some sense they're the organizations in which you

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Speaker 4: can have the most confidence.

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Speaker 3: So there are four of them. Two work on malaria.

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Speaker 4: One is called the Against Malaria Foundation, one is called

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Speaker 4: Malary Consortium. Against Malaria Foundation distributes malaria nets that people

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Speaker 4: put up over their beds at night to prevent mosquitos

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Speaker 4: from biting them, preventing the transmission of malaria. Malaria Consortium

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Speaker 4: distributes preventative malaria medication to children under five to reduce.

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Speaker 3: The likely of getting malaria.

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Speaker 4: Malaria is something that gets a lot of global attention,

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Speaker 4: but it's still the case that about fifteen hundred children

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Speaker 4: die every day of malaria, so there is still just

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Speaker 4: a huge need for additional funding in that disease. We

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Speaker 4: have two more I'll just say what they are very quickly.

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Speaker 4: When it's Helen Keller International's Vitamin A supplementation program. We

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Speaker 4: talk a lot about vitamin A or sorry, vitamin supplementation

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Speaker 4: or vitamin need in high income countries, but in a

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Speaker 4: place like Africa, it's a whole different situation where people

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Speaker 4: have severe vitamin A deficiency and a series of randomized

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Speaker 4: controlled trials show that having vitamin A supplementation from the

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Speaker 4: age of six months to five years reduces mortality in

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Speaker 4: that crucial age range by.

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Speaker 3: A significant amount.

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Speaker 4: And again this is sort of a theme this under

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Speaker 4: five mortality, where people are dying from preventable diseases, is

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Speaker 4: one of the places where we often find the biggest

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Speaker 4: bang for.

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Speaker 3: The donor dollar.

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Speaker 4: And then Finally, we are final top charities an organization

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Speaker 4: called New Incentives. They work in an area of northern

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Speaker 4: Nigeria where immunization rates for children are very low, and

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Speaker 4: they offer very small cash incentives to encourage caregivers to

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Speaker 4: bring their children to those routine immunization visits that kids

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Speaker 4: go through in their first year and a half of life.

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Speaker 3: And these incentives are small.

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Speaker 4: They're intended to cover the travel costs, the time costs

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Speaker 4: of getting to clinics.

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Speaker 3: That can often be far away.

445
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,920
Speaker 4: We also have seen that program be evaluated in a

446
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 4: randomized control trial.

447
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,280
Speaker 3: In there they increased the proportion of.

448
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 4: Children who are getting all their routine imunizations from about

449
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 4: sixty percent meaning three and five to about eighty.

450
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:05,400
Speaker 3: Percent four and five.

451
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 4: So I had a really big impact on the number

452
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,680
Speaker 4: of told them you were getting routine immanizations. This then

453
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,480
Speaker 4: leads them to be less susceptible to vaccine preventable diseases,

454
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,600
Speaker 4: and we think again averts a death of a young

455
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,320
Speaker 4: child for about four to five thousand dollars. So represents

456
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 4: a really great deal for donors and an opportunity for

457
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 4: almost anyone to have a really big impact on the

458
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 4: world by giving to organizations like this.

459
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 1: That's incredible.

460
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,560
Speaker 2: I had no idea that vitamin A deficiencies we had

461
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 2: such a big impact on the life outcomes in poorer countries.

462
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 2: So thank you for sharing sharing all of those and

463
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:39,640
Speaker 2: it truly is amazing that y'all have narrowed it down

464
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,360
Speaker 2: to those four because truly they do have the biggest impact.

465
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 2: But we've got more questions for you, Ellie. Specifically, we

466
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 2: want to talk I guess more on an individual level,

467
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,360
Speaker 2: how it is that we can make the most impact

468
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,400
Speaker 2: when it comes to the money that we give.

469
00:21:53,440 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 1: We'll get to all of that right after this. We're

470
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 1: back from the break, still talking with Ellie Hassenfeld about

471
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 1: effective altruism and Giving Well. And let's specifically talk about

472
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,640
Speaker 1: effective altruism that is kind of the heart behind Give

473
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,119
Speaker 1: Well in so many ways, it's about getting the most

474
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,159
Speaker 1: bang for your buck, like Matt, like you said in

475
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 1: the intro, and like Ellie was just talking about with

476
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 1: how effective some of these nonprofits that Give Well partners

477
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,399
Speaker 1: with actually are. And Ellie, I'm curious to me, the

478
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 1: big the face of effective altruism, at least for a

479
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,360
Speaker 1: hot minute, was Sam Bankman Freed right, and then he

480
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,959
Speaker 1: had this precipitous fall from grace. Do you think that

481
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 1: that effective altruism sort of mentality and approach to giving

482
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 1: has taken a hit because Sam Bankman Freed took a hit.

483
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

484
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 4: I mean, I think the approach, which I would describe

485
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 4: as using reason and evidence to try to determine where

486
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 4: to give, maybe also what kind of career to work

487
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 4: in is I don't know. I think at a high

488
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,159
Speaker 4: level like that those values are are great. They're values

489
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 4: that also animate give well in the work that we do.

490
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 4: And I think it's too bad that, I guess effective

491
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 4: Altruism the brand took a big, big hit because of

492
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 4: its association with Sam Bacon Freed.

493
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 3: I think that, you know, I don't think as far

494
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:18,360
Speaker 3: as I.

495
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 4: Can see that that the the values, you know, the

496
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 4: value of trying to identify great places to give, being thoughtful,

497
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 4: being deliberate, you know, the work that we do. You know,

498
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 4: we feel we feel good about how we've come through that,

499
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 4: and you know, we think those values like hold strong

500
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 4: and you know, plan to just you know, continue on

501
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 4: doing what we're doing to try and promote those values

502
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:40,880
Speaker 4: because we think they're they're really valuable.

503
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 1: That makes sense.

504
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 2: Okay, So, I guess while we're kind of talking about this,

505
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 2: there's another giving method that Silicon Valley seems to favor

506
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 2: right now, and that's thinking of business as a stand

507
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 2: in for altruism. You know that they can ultimately do

508
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 2: more good not by actually donating their money, but by building.

509
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: What do you think of that premise?

510
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,439
Speaker 2: And I guess that also makes me think of just

511
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 2: some of the different organizations out there too that are

512
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 2: providing charity and altruism by consumption. Right, So, you got it.

513
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 2: On one end, you've got businesses that are building. On

514
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 2: the other end, you have consumers who are buying goods

515
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 2: and whether it's the buy a pair, give a pair,

516
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 2: but they're kind of conflating the two. I would love

517
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 2: to hear I guess your thoughts on either one of those.

518
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean so, first off, I mean, I think

519
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 4: it's clear that business itself has done a huge amount

520
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 4: of good for the world, and you know, some bad too,

521
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 4: but so much of the good things that we have

522
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 4: that exist are a function of people acting in their

523
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 4: own self interest. You know, charity is not the only

524
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 4: way to do good things in the world, and you

525
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 4: know there's plenty of examples of that, but just a

526
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 4: very small one is I'm really happy that Google Search

527
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 4: exists because that is an amazing service to me and

528
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 4: the whole world in accessing information that has a huge

529
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 4: positive impact that comes straight out of you know, people

530
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 4: acting in their own personal self interest, and that is great.

531
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 4: I think I get a little worried and have had

532
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,360
Speaker 4: like less positive experiences with I guess what I would

533
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,959
Speaker 4: call organizations that are really trying to focus on a

534
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 4: double bottom line, where you know, on one hand they're

535
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 4: saying we are for profit and we want to make money,

536
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 4: and then on the other hand, we're acting in the

537
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 4: social good. And the reason it's been tough for us

538
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 4: to look at and to really evaluate historically is anytime

539
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 4: you have these two separate goals, it's easy to play

540
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 4: them off against one another. So you might say, well,

541
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 4: we might say to them, hey, like, we want to

542
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 4: see better data on your social impact, but they say,

543
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 4: you know, we don't have that data, but we're for profits,

544
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 4: so we don't really need to have such good data.

545
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 4: And then on the other hand, maybe they say to

546
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 4: their investors, hey, investors, like, we're going to get you

547
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 4: a lower return, but don't worry we have high social impact,

548
00:25:55,040 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 4: and I think it has felt often like the ability

549
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 4: to sort of promote each goal independently has, at least

550
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 4: on the certainly on the social impact side not measured

551
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 4: up for us, and seeing that that social impact is

552
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 4: coming through in the way it is.

553
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 3: Uh.

554
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 4: And then I do think that often the uh when

555
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 4: when companies run campaigns to you know, buy one, give one,

556
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 4: or uh, you know, some marketing campaign of a match,

557
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,959
Speaker 4: I mean I normally think about that as just a

558
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 4: marketing campaign, and uh, you know, they're they're doing that

559
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 4: because it will help ultimately, like bring in more dollars.

560
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 3: And and I don't know if this.

561
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 4: Is true in every single case, but I would certainly

562
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 4: guess the vast majority of cases, you know, ultimately it's

563
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 4: a it's a marketing decision more than anything else. And

564
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 4: so I think the push I would make to listeners

565
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 4: on this point is all of this other stuff is great,

566
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 4: you know.

567
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 3: Don't don't don't you know? Business can be good too.

568
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 4: And and if you find good up a product you

569
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 4: want and they're gonna buy one and give one, why not.

570
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 3: But I think it's important to set.

571
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 4: Aside some part of your budget to just intentionally give

572
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 4: to help people as much as possible and really target

573
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 4: that at the opportunities that will help people a lot

574
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 4: completely altruistically. I think there are huge opportunities there, and

575
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 4: so I think all the other stuff is true, and

576
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 4: there's this opportunity to accomplish a lot of good with

577
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 4: charity that's worth doing as well.

578
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I think you're spot on. I think it's like, yeah,

579
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: build the business and then give money away. Hopefully you're

580
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: ye providing jobs, you're earning an income, and then also

581
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: you have money to give away to charities that matter.

582
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: So I guess it's obviously different in every individual's case.

583
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: But do you have any sort of rule of thumb

584
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: for how much you think individuals should aim to give away?

585
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: I mean, there's the ten percent religious principle of tithing,

586
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: but what do you think, like, especially since you started

587
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: out the gates with, we live in the richest country

588
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 1: in the history of humanity, and there are people in

589
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: other parts of the world in extreme poverty, how should

590
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: we think about our lot in life and then how

591
00:27:59,000 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: much we should be giving away.

592
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you hit it spot on.

593
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 4: Everyone is in a totally different situation, you know, people

594
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 4: at different levels of debt, different levels of need for

595
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 4: retirement saving, et cetera. And so it's hard to have

596
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 4: a clean rule. You know, my family we give ten percent,

597
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 4: and we give ten percent, not actually religiously specifically, but

598
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 4: just because it is a big number for us. It

599
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 4: feels like we're making a big commitment and we know

600
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,479
Speaker 4: at the end of the day, ten percent of our

601
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 4: income is something that we can afford, especially relative to

602
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 4: other people in the world. I'm not always given ten percent.

603
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 4: Another way that I used to think about it in

604
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 4: the past, it wasn't numerical. I just said, what's the

605
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 4: biggest personal purchase I made in the last year for myself,

606
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 4: I should be willing to give that amount to.

607
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 3: Help people around the world.

608
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 4: And there I was intending to give an amount that

609
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 4: just felt big, and I know that's really qualitative, but

610
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 4: it got me in the mindset of this charitable giving

611
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 4: is a big thing that I'm trying to do because

612
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 4: I know it will have a big impact on people

613
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 4: around the world.

614
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 3: It's not just something that I do on the.

615
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 4: Side, and so trying to think about it as a

616
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 4: big purchase was I think got me in the right

617
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 4: mindset and I think the biggest advice I'd give on

618
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 4: this is, finally, like, don't sweat it too too much.

619
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 4: We're coming up to the end of the year, to

620
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 4: the end of the twenty twenty three tax year, And

621
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 4: something that I've done myself and seen from so many

622
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 4: donors over the years is it's really helpful if you're

623
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 4: not giving, to get off the sidelines and give something,

624
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 4: and then a year from now you can ask yourself again,

625
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 4: how did it feel to give that?

626
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 3: And what I hear over and over again.

627
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 4: Is people are surprised by how fulfilled and how excited

628
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 4: they are about the giving they've done, and often that

629
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 4: causes them to give more. And so I think there's

630
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 4: I think the biggest piece of advice I'd give is

631
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 4: don't wait until you have the perfect answer. Just try

632
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 4: to give something proactive, intentionally, and then you can always

633
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 4: revisit it in the futures.

634
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: Right. I love that.

635
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: Okay, so you kind of mentioned the end of the year,

636
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 2: the holiday giving season. Why is it that there is

637
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 2: so much focus? I mean, granted we're a little guilty

638
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 2: of this as well with the big write out Thanksgiving,

639
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 2: but is it just because we are coming up towards

640
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 2: the end of the year and it's sort of the

641
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 2: last opportunity to give to some of these different organizations.

642
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, it must be some combination of it's the holiday

643
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 4: season and so people are getting in the mindset of

644
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 4: giving and helping others, and then also the tax year,

645
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 4: you know, makes a big difference. You know, I know

646
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 4: that I always want to make sure to get my

647
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 4: donation in for the tax year to make sure that

648
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 4: I can deduct it on my taxes, and so that

649
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 4: plays a role too.

650
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 3: It's actually interesting.

651
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 4: We see a huge increase in donations via credit card

652
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 4: on our website in literally the last seventy two hours

653
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 4: of the year, and it's amazing. And so it's amazing

654
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 4: how many people are just trying to get it in

655
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 4: before the calendar year switches or you know, we'll get

656
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 4: checks that are dated December thirty first, when they have

657
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 4: a mail they come in the mail off as long

658
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 4: as they're like dated by December thirty first, they were.

659
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 4: But you know that's the thing that we see so

660
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 4: much of.

661
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: Well that's yeah, that's interesting too, because depending on how

662
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: much you earn and how much the way your taxes

663
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: are evolving, you might not even get a tax break

664
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: from giving, But that doesn't necessarily need to be the

665
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: reason for doing it either. But okay, I question for you.

666
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: You you mentioned how difficult it was for you to

667
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: figure out which charities were doing having the most impacts.

668
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: And let's say someone's listening and they say, man, I

669
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: love what Kibble is doing. That's so cool. But I

670
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: also feel compelled to give to charities that are close

671
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: to home. Right, there's a charity that mentors high school

672
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: kids in underprivileged situations in my neighborhood or something like that,

673
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: and I really feel strongly about that. How would you

674
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: tell those folks to think about and to maybe vet

675
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: nonprofits that are doing good work in their neighborhood or

676
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: or you know, in their municipathy. How would how would

677
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 1: you say, oh, yeah, look through these, this, this, and

678
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: this to see whether or not that organization's worth give to.

679
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

680
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 4: So the first thing is just by being proactive in

681
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,959
Speaker 4: that way, by saying I'm interested in this cause, I

682
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 4: want to help organizations doing this type of mentoring in

683
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 4: my local community. I'm going to go after that proactively

684
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 4: already puts you or puts the donor in a much

685
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 4: better place than the vast majority of people who are

686
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 4: responding to solicitations in the mail or from friends or

687
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 4: at the grocery store. And that is a great place

688
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 4: to start. And that is literally my first piece of

689
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 4: advice is be proactive.

690
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 3: You know. After that, I'll be honest. I think it's

691
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 3: I think it's real hard.

692
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 4: We have a post that we wrote a while ago

693
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 4: that are that's called six Tips for giving like a

694
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 4: pro and it kind of goes through some high level

695
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 4: questions that we suggest people ask. Our number one tip

696
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 4: is be proactive. But after that, we say, ask organizations

697
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 4: to make the case that their programs are effective. You know,

698
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 4: just ask them some questions like is the what impact

699
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 4: do you imagine the mentoring having? How do they know

700
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 4: it's having that impact? Ask them how they'd use some

701
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 4: more money. We encourage people when they give money to

702
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 4: organizations to give those organizations flexibility to spend on the

703
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 4: thing that they most want. I think it's easy as

704
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 4: a donor sometime to want to see your dollars being

705
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 4: used for a very specific thing, but that can tie

706
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 4: the hands of organizations in all sorts of ways that

707
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 4: are hard to see. You know, maybe the mentoring program

708
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 4: just needs I don't know, new cords for their laptops,

709
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 4: you know, to plug them in, and that sounds really boring,

710
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 4: but like they know better than you do what they

711
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 4: really need. So we encourage that flexibility. And then finally

712
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 4: we just think it's a good idea to check back

713
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 4: a year later, you know, don't just assume that because

714
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 4: you gave it all work out. I think the way

715
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 4: this process is most effective is when people are proactive.

716
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 4: Then they make they do a little bit of research,

717
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 4: and they give, and then finally at the end of

718
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 4: the day, they come back and they try to learn,

719
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 4: and that circling back is going to enable everyone to

720
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 4: give more effectively over the long run, which is.

721
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 3: Really the goal.

722
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: I love that.

723
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 2: Okay, Ellie, I want to ask you a personal question,

724
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: because you're you're mister you're a mister GiveWell, how do

725
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 2: you personally strike that balance between giving locally then versus

726
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 2: giving in a way that you know is going to

727
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 2: save the most lives. Because I find that to be

728
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 2: a very tough conundrum to find yourself in. Right, Like,

729
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 2: on one hand, you know that this amount of money,

730
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 2: whether it's four or five thousand dollars, that that could

731
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,879
Speaker 2: save a life, But on the other hand, you're also

732
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 2: looking to maybe some of the needs there in your

733
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 2: own community.

734
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: How do you strike that balance?

735
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, so this is how you know. I've thought about it,

736
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 4: and I do give a fair amount locally. My kids

737
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 4: go to local public schools. During COVID, you know, gave

738
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 4: within my community to help people out. And the way

739
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 4: I think about it is bucketing charitable giving into different categories.

740
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 4: One category is support the community and the institutions that

741
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 4: I'm a part of, and I want to do that.

742
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 4: I want to be a good community member and a

743
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 4: good citizen, and I give there because of that reason.

744
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 3: And then separately, I have a bucket that says.

745
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 4: I, I don't know how to put this. As a

746
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 4: human being in the world, I want to help other

747
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 4: people around the world as much as possible. And sometimes

748
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 4: it's hard to relate to people who are so far

749
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 4: away the same way that we relate to the people

750
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 4: who are down the block. But you know, I've had

751
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 4: I've been very privileged. I've had the opportunity to, you know,

752
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 4: meet people in Western Kenya and talk to them and

753
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 4: just understand how they're seeing their lives in India. Other

754
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 4: places around the world, and when I imagine them, you

755
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 4: know it, really it motivates me to say, of course,

756
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 4: like the this is obvious, but they are people just

757
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 4: like us. They just happen to live in this incredibly

758
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 4: poor part of the world. And so I also have

759
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 4: this bucket where and it's for me. It's the vast, vast,

760
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 4: vast majority of what I give is going to places

761
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 4: where I think it'll help as much as possible.

762
00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I love that. I love that you're doing

763
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: both and yeah, what was it the Warren Buffett says,

764
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: you won the genetic lottery by being born in the

765
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 1: United States, and there's a certain amount of realization of

766
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 1: that and kind of connecting the dots from ourselves to

767
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: our brothers and sisters who live in other parts of

768
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: the world that we've never met and saying they need

769
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: help to Hey, Ellie, we've got just a few more

770
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: questions to get to with you, and specifically want to

771
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: talk about like donor advice funds and if you think

772
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: those are a good option for people to save on

773
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 1: taxes and a way to give effectively. We'll get to

774
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: come more with you right after this. We are back.

775
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 2: We're talking effective altruism with Ellie Hasenfeld and Ellie. You know,

776
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 2: so just before the break, we touched on taxes, and

777
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,919
Speaker 2: because of the standard deduction, for a lot of folks,

778
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: they're actually not getting much of a tax benefit, and

779
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 2: so there's no really real actual benefit there. So I

780
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 2: just I guess I want to ask a question as

781
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 2: to how it is that we are thinking about are

782
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 2: giving so like, aside from the taxes part right, and

783
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 2: even aside from the good that we're able to do,

784
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 2: whether we're talking locally or on the other side of

785
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: the world, like, there seems to be like an internal

786
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 2: change that occurs when we are charitable. When I give,

787
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 2: it's more informed by my faith, but it has a

788
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 2: lot to do with acknowledging I guess the fact that

789
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 2: what I have, my wealth, my income is not necessarily

790
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 2: my own. Do you think that there is an internal

791
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 2: change that happens to folks regardless of their faith, when

792
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 2: they're giving their money away.

793
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 3: I just think it's.

794
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 4: Really important to remember how fortunate we are for being

795
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 4: born where and when we were. And if I had

796
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 4: been born in western Kenya instead of the Boston area

797
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 4: in the nineteen eighties, my life would have taken a

798
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 4: very different trajectory and that, like you said, is just

799
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 4: a total.

800
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 3: Luck of the draw.

801
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 4: And so on some level, I feel like it's my

802
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,479
Speaker 4: responsibility and my duty to try and help others. And yeah,

803
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 4: I think that when honestly, when I when I watch

804
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 4: the news and I think about all the stuff that's

805
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 4: going wrong in the world and how little I can

806
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 4: do to solve it, it makes me feel a lot

807
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 4: better to know that I'm able to send some money

808
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 4: to organizations that are doing the work that is just

809
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 4: reducing suffering and saving lives. And does you know, I

810
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 4: think on some level change how I relate to what's

811
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:25,919
Speaker 4: happening in the world because I know I'm taking action

812
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 4: to make it a better place.

813
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think we're so it's so easy to

814
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: become self obsessed in kind of the modern era, the

815
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: social media era, and I see that in myself, right,

816
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 1: And I think the more we give, the more we serve,

817
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: the more we take the spotlight off ourselves. And I

818
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: think that's so healthy in so many ways. Right, Okay,

819
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: I want to know your thoughts on donor of I

820
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: phones because I think they're cool and they're a way

821
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 1: to maybe grow your money for to be able to

822
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 1: give more effectively in the future. And it's a way

823
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: to not like, say, you can't really like ren in

824
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 1: on that right, you can't like take that money back

825
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: and then spend it on yourself. So what's your take

826
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 1: on donor advised funds? And I feel like they've gotten

827
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: more accessible, cheaper for individuals. Daffy is one of the

828
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 1: coolest organizations in this space. Like, what do you think

829
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: about going that route in an effort to kind of

830
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 1: grow that nest egg so you can give bigger chunks

831
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: down the road.

832
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

833
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 4: So, I mean I can't give like formal tax or

834
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 4: financial advice, but I think donor advised funds are very

835
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 4: helpful to people in the following way. I think they

836
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 4: do two things that can be real helpful. Number One,

837
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 4: they can enable you to give and if you are

838
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 4: going to itemize on your taxes, get that right off.

839
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 4: And if you're not to commit those funds to charities,

840
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 4: so you know you have to give it and you

841
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 4: can't just save it for yourself forever. And then the

842
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 4: second thing they can do is they can often make

843
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 4: it much easier to give a non cash donation. So

844
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 4: when I give I give appreciated securities. And the reason

845
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 4: I give appreciated securities is, you know, I give the

846
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,919
Speaker 4: securities that I've appreciated the most. I get the tax

847
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 4: deduction on one hand, and then also reset the basis

848
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 4: essentially on the money that I would put in behind it,

849
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 4: and so I'm getting rid of the basically avoiding the

850
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 4: capital gains tax in a sense on giving those appreciated

851
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 4: securities away and donor advice funds can also make that

852
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 4: a lot easier to pull off because they're set.

853
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 3: Up to take assets of all kinds.

854
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 4: But I should say you should ask a personal financial

855
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 4: advisor before taking anything what I said at face value.

856
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: Appreciate that disclaimer. Really. Okay, one last question for you.

857
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: You literally have a tab at the top of the

858
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: give Will site that says.

859
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 2: Our mistakes, which is it's pretty bold to air that

860
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: dirty laundry there. Why is being transparent like that and

861
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 2: being forthcoming about these past failures so.

862
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: Important to you and what it is y'all do.

863
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just really core to who we are as

864
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 4: an organization. We're an organization that is constantly learning. You know,

865
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 4: I think a lot of folks want to be out

866
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 4: there trying to claim they're good at what they do

867
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 4: before they really got there, And we just want to

868
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 4: be very transparent that, like everyone, we make mistakes, we

869
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 4: screw up, and then we are committed to learning from them.

870
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 3: And I think having this tab up there helps.

871
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 4: Most importantly, I'd say our staff know that at GiveWell,

872
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 4: we're a place that doesn't try to hide mistakes.

873
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 3: Instead we just try to learn from him and to

874
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 3: be honest. I think this is something that should be.

875
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 4: Much more common in the nonprofit world because in the

876
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 4: for profit world, companies are competing against each other and

877
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 4: you don't want to display any weakness because you might

878
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 4: lose out. You know, if you're coke, you don't want

879
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 4: to lose out to pepsi. In the nonprofit world, we

880
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 4: are literally all on the same team, like we're just

881
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 4: trying to make the world better, and in general we

882
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 4: try to share as much as we can. I mean,

883
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 4: it's true about our mistakes, it's also true about the

884
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,359
Speaker 4: underlying information that goes into our research and recommendations.

885
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 3: It is all up there on our website.

886
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 4: We do that so people know what they're getting, they

887
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 4: can determine what they think about is. But also we

888
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 4: just want to put all that information out there because

889
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 4: if can help anyone else do a better job, then

890
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 4: that's great because we're all working at a high level

891
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 4: towards the same goal, which is making the world a

892
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 4: better place.

893
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you can see your screw ups in

894
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 1: real time and then you can adapt, like, you're going

895
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: to be more effective as you move into the future.

896
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: And so I think like, if it wasn't for your

897
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: willingness to look at those pass mistakes, my guess is

898
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 1: give we wouldn't be as effective as it is today.

899
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 3: Well, that's definitely true.

900
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 4: I mean, just as one concrete example, if you look

901
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 4: back at the recommendations we made when we first launched

902
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 4: in two thousand and seven, we recommended former organizations.

903
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 3: We don't recommend any of those organizations today. You know,

904
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 3: we've moved on, we've learned, and of course we didn't

905
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:40,800
Speaker 3: do as well.

906
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 4: You know, back in December two thousand and seven, we

907
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 4: were two people who had worked at GiveWell for four months,

908
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 4: so we weren't.

909
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 3: Going to make some great recommendations.

910
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 4: Now we're a much larger team, We've been at this

911
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 4: for much longer, and throughout our entire history. We just

912
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 4: are committed to learning about how to do things better.

913
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 4: We've done that for a long time. I hope we

914
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 4: keep doing it for a long time. And I think

915
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 4: it's it's something that I wish was I don't know,

916
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 4: prevalent across the entire sector, because it seems like obviously

917
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 4: the way to do it.

918
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: I love it.

919
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 2: Ellie, Thank you so much for your time. We appreciate

920
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 2: you talking with us about effective altruism. Can you tell

921
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 2: folks word is that they can go to a if

922
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 2: they want to give via your company, or be at

923
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 2: the very least they can just learn about some of

924
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 2: the awesome charities that are out there.

925
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really easy.

926
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 4: So it's give well dot org www dot GiveWell dot

927
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 4: org and on our website you'll find options to donate.

928
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 4: You can click through and read more, and if you're

929
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 4: not sure about what to focus on, you can sign

930
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 4: up for our email list and get a monthly email

931
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:43,439
Speaker 4: of highlights from the work that we're doing.

932
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 1: It's Kayler awesome, Ellie, Thank you again so much. Man.

933
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: We really appreciate it.

934
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 3: Oh my pleasure. Thank you so much.

935
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: This was great, all right, Matt boy, that was a

936
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: great combo. I just yeah, I really like Ellie.

937
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 2: I like dude, great mission. I appreciate the energy that

938
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 2: he brings to giving. Do you think he has to

939
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 2: be energetic in order to get folks to I think

940
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 2: you just ta get folks to be excited about giving

941
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 2: them money away.

942
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: No, I agree. I think it's pumped and I think

943
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: it helps with what he does. But I think this is,

944
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: like you said, naturally a part of who he is

945
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: when you care about something that deeply it resonates and

946
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: you can't kind of help but spreading the gospel of

947
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: giving right, which is which is what he does. Well.

948
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: But what was your big takeaway from that conversation?

949
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 2: Okay, Well mine is going to be so when we're

950
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 2: talking about giving locally to organizations that you care about

951
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 2: that have impact you personally, but then also your your

952
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 2: direct community, and finding that balance between that which is

953
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 2: not going to be an optimized form of giving, and

954
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 2: simultaneously holding that at the same time as you are

955
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 2: trying to find ways to give in an ultra optimized, effective,

956
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 2: altruistic way. Well, the fact is you can do both,

957
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 2: and I love that. That is what Ellie said. I

958
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 2: think there could have been a chance that he would

959
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 2: have said well, guys, you got to give the You

960
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 2: got to be an effective altruist all the way through

961
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 2: one hundred percent, because you know that every dollar that

962
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 2: you're giving locally essentially isn't nearly as as efficient as

963
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 2: that money going abroad, going overseas. But I really like

964
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,280
Speaker 2: how he framed it, which is, we are citizens essentially,

965
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 2: this is how I interpreted it. But we're citizens of

966
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: our local community, of our town, the city, our state,

967
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 2: wherever it is that we live. But then simultaneously, we're

968
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 2: global citizens and the ability for us to make a

969
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,720
Speaker 2: massive impact in the lives of others, other human beings

970
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 2: who we literally share humanity with that we share this

971
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,280
Speaker 2: globe with. I think that can be a fantastic approach,

972
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 2: to have the both and approach, which is I think

973
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 2: how you've mentioned it.

974
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: I like it. I like the kind of almost like

975
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: we do savings buckets, do giving buckets and say there

976
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: you go, and half my giving goes to the most

977
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 1: in the most optimized way, and the other half can

978
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: go towards organizations that are local that I've been supporting

979
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 1: for a long time. I don't want to I don't

980
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 1: want to rip all my funding out from those organizations

981
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 1: that are near and dear to my heart where I

982
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: can actually kind of see and participate in the good

983
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,479
Speaker 1: that's being done. But yeah, you can do both, because

984
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:53,439
Speaker 1: that's important as well. Yeah. Yeah, I think my big

985
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: takeaway was when he said charity is not the only

986
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 1: way to do good in this world, and he talked

987
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: about how, yes, starting a business is a great way

988
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: to do it. I think another thing I would point

989
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: people to is it doesn't just have to be money.

990
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: It could be your time that's given to a local

991
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: nonprofit or to serve at your kid's school or something

992
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: like that. I mean, there's all sorts of ways to

993
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: get involved in your community that don't involve dollars.

994
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of folks who may not have

995
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 2: excess dollars this time of year, right, and they're trying

996
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 2: to find ways. Well, guys, how the heck am I

997
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 2: going to be an effective altruistic Well yeah, like you said,

998
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 2: there's a way you can do that in person.

999
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think you also don't. He's basically saying,

1000
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: at least said, dip your toes in, like give a

1001
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,359
Speaker 1: little bit, see how it feels. And I think that's

1002
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: good to kind of like we talk about with investing,

1003
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: it's like, start with a little bit, twenty bucks matters, right,

1004
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: and then you're an investor and twenty bucks matters here.

1005
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 1: Now you're a giver, Like now you are a philanthropist,

1006
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: and you can always grow that pie that you're giving

1007
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,720
Speaker 1: away in the future. But I think just getting started

1008
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: is important too. But totally agree. All right, let's get

1009
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: back to the beer that we had on this episode.

1010
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 2: This is an all around fantastic episode because we had

1011
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 2: a great conversation, but we also had a fantastic beer.

1012
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 1: No, we did.

1013
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 3: This.

1014
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 1: One's called Chokable Hurricane. It's a smoothie sour by other

1015
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,320
Speaker 1: half or your thoughts, it's my other half. This is

1016
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: a collab as well.

1017
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 2: Over here it says it was brewed with their friends

1018
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 2: at Drekker Brewing Company, which evidently is that a Fargo,

1019
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 2: North Dakota.

1020
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: Oh, I've never been to Fargo. Seen the movie? Seen

1021
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: the movie? Okay, have you seen the show? Oh? Yeah,

1022
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: it's like three three seasons. I think I saw the

1023
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: first series too. It's so, I mean, great, all right

1024
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: movie versus the show. If you had to pick, it's

1025
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: tough because I went into that show being like, yeah, right,

1026
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: no way. The movie is so good, but the show

1027
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 1: is really good too, so like get held up. Yeah,

1028
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 1: they're both great, okay, but the beer dude so good.

1029
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: It was incredibly thick. So off. Mike, you said that

1030
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: this tastes like a mimosa, and I totally agree, even

1031
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 1: though it's trying to mimic a hurricane, which is like

1032
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 1: the classic New Orleans cocktail New Orleans drink rum orange juice, passion,

1033
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 1: fruit passion food.

1034
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 2: Lime juice as well. So I don't think there's any

1035
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 2: lime flavors, but the orange flavors, the mandarin flavors in particular,

1036
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 2: totally come through. It's I don't know how to describe it,

1037
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 2: but it's less bright and it's more of a fleshy

1038
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 2: orange kind of not only flavor but also mouthfeel because

1039
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 2: there's a good amount of fruit sediment in.

1040
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 1: This and this beer. But I will say it's not

1041
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: it's not too much. Sometimes when you get a smoothie hour,

1042
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: it's like there's like chunks and stuff in there, and

1043
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: that's kind of off putting. No, this this has Did

1044
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: you pour your entire can?

1045
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 3: No?

1046
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 1: I left a little bit in the model.

1047
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 2: Probably did you get some chunks. Well, I mean I

1048
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 2: gave it once I got a quarter of the way down.

1049
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 2: I swirled it so I could get it all out. No,

1050
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 2: I left like the last like I don't know, very

1051
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 2: very small portion.

1052
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 1: I nothing goes to waste. I ate all my veggies

1053
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: and all my fruit. Well, I thought this was delicious.

1054
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: I was surprised them. Like other half. All I know

1055
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: them for is IPA is. It's nice to have a

1056
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: different style that they made and this one did not

1057
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 1: leave anything to be desired.

1058
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 2: That's right, And thank you to Jason for donating this

1059
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 2: one to the podcast. So Jason was being charitable in

1060
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 2: a completely different You can it's either money, your time.

1061
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: Or also beer or the gift a beer, yeah, the

1062
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: best craft beers in the world. Make sure you sa

1063
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 1: have a little room in your budget for that gift.

1064
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: But that's gonna be it for this episode.

1065
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 2: We'll make sure to link to give well up on

1066
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 2: the show at how to money dot com. We hope

1067
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 2: everyone has a fantastic Thanksgiving tomorrow, that you are able

1068
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 2: to spend a lot of time with your family or

1069
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,359
Speaker 2: with your friends if you do the friends giving, if

1070
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 2: that's how you roll, But either way, hope you have

1071
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 2: a great one, Joel, that's gonna be it, buddy. Until

1072
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,760
Speaker 2: next time, best friends out, Best friends Out,