WEBVTT - Chesnut on New Book

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<v Speaker 1>Let's wrap up the show. The last half hour of

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<v Speaker 1>this show, we're gonna spend it with Rob Chestnut. He

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<v Speaker 1>is the former chief ethics officer of Airbnb's got a

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<v Speaker 1>new book. It's called Intentional Integrity, How Smart Companies can

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<v Speaker 1>lead in Ethical Revolution. He joins us on the phone

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<v Speaker 1>from lovely Santa Cruz, California. Rob, how are you. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>doing great. The weather is beautiful here today, Oh man.

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<v Speaker 1>I was there in Santa Cruz with my family over

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<v Speaker 1>the Christmas and New Year's holiday. I didn't want to leave.

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<v Speaker 1>It is just it's so gorgeous there. What's life like

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<v Speaker 1>in Northern California? Because we hear these California headlines about

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<v Speaker 1>the virus, but I know enough to be dangerous that

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<v Speaker 1>the Northern California scene in the Southern California scene, they're

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<v Speaker 1>pretty different, right, They are different. I hear from friends

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<v Speaker 1>down in Southern California that a lot of people are

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<v Speaker 1>not wearing masks down in that area of the country.

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<v Speaker 1>Whenever I get out, and I don't get out a

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<v Speaker 1>whole lot, I see a lot of masks up here

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<v Speaker 1>in Northern California. I think people are people are being careful.

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<v Speaker 1>The streets are pretty deserted compared to usual, and everywhere

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<v Speaker 1>I go in the grocery stores lots of masks of

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<v Speaker 1>trying to do the best we can. Well that's not

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<v Speaker 1>very Uh, that's not integrity being displayed thereby by folks

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<v Speaker 1>in southern California, those who are wearing masks. Let's I

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<v Speaker 1>agree with you. I think it's a real show of courtesy,

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<v Speaker 1>tort your fellow man. Yeah, don't to wear the masks

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<v Speaker 1>and respect. So we need to get people on it.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't understand how wearing a mask has become so

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<v Speaker 1>political when when you are talking about integrity and doing

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<v Speaker 1>good and not doing evil, how do you keep it

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<v Speaker 1>so that you focus on just doing the right thing

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<v Speaker 1>as opposed to getting caught up in whether it's politically

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<v Speaker 1>correct or not. Well, you need an open mind. I

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<v Speaker 1>think everyone needs a like a north star in life,

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<v Speaker 1>a purpose and sort of a commitment to live with

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<v Speaker 1>integrity as they can best perceive it. But people also,

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<v Speaker 1>I think needs to have some self awareness and listen

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<v Speaker 1>to people around them, uh, and be willing to adjust

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<v Speaker 1>their views as they learn more information. Uh. Yeah, it

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<v Speaker 1>seems like we do a lot of partisan thinking in

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<v Speaker 1>this country where people kind of get stuck on one

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<v Speaker 1>side and just feel like they're dogged and committing to

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<v Speaker 1>stick by it no matter what. And that's not going

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<v Speaker 1>to get us a good place. So tell us about

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<v Speaker 1>the the sort of the foundation of this book, because

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<v Speaker 1>I'm fascinated by your background. You are a federal prosecutor.

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<v Speaker 1>You went to work for eBay, I believe in ultimately

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<v Speaker 1>at Airbnb? What led you? What? What was sort of

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<v Speaker 1>the genesis at the spark? Well, I've been I've been

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<v Speaker 1>dealing with rules. I think my whole life as a

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<v Speaker 1>photo prosecutor, I prosecuted espionage cases, uh, which I think

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<v Speaker 1>it shows about as much lack of integrity as you

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<v Speaker 1>can you can ever find in a work at games Right,

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<v Speaker 1>you were involved in that lage. He was one of

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<v Speaker 1>the cases that I prosecuted When I was in Northern

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<v Speaker 1>Virginia and at an eBay, I started their trust and

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<v Speaker 1>safety department. All the rules around what you can sell

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<v Speaker 1>on eBay? Can you sell guns and alcohol and tobacco

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<v Speaker 1>products and drugs in the light. So I've been dealing

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<v Speaker 1>with rules of my whole lifetime. But uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>just the last three or four years, I've really gotten

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<v Speaker 1>a sense that the world is changing. Uh, people are

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<v Speaker 1>far faster now to call out bad conduct by leaders

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<v Speaker 1>and my companies. I refer to it, you know, as

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<v Speaker 1>an integrity revolution in the book. Uh. People are really

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<v Speaker 1>desiring when they go to work to have a positive

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<v Speaker 1>impact in the world. And if they perceived the values

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<v Speaker 1>of their company to not be aligned with their own

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<v Speaker 1>values in the past, they were quiet. Now they're communicating

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<v Speaker 1>with each other on blind and Slack, and they're blogging

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<v Speaker 1>about it, they're tweeting about it. They're even organizing lookouts.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think it's not just employees, it's customers. We

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<v Speaker 1>are in an age of conscious consumerism where you know, consumers,

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<v Speaker 1>if they don't like the way that a particular company operates,

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<v Speaker 1>they're gonna take their money and they're gonna move it

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<v Speaker 1>somewhere else faster than before. So the genesis for the book,

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<v Speaker 1>I think is it was really recognizing the see change

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<v Speaker 1>and this heightened expectation that the world's putting on leaders

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<v Speaker 1>and on companies, and there's an effort to try to

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<v Speaker 1>help companies adjust in this new world so that they

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<v Speaker 1>can really take advantage of it and led it as

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<v Speaker 1>opposed to fighting the Todd and ultimately really hurting their brands.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, Rob, let's talk a little bit about the

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<v Speaker 1>tech world if we can. You've been a part of it,

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<v Speaker 1>uh in many ways. And as Scarlett pointed out, and

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<v Speaker 1>as we talked about earlier, you know, this is a

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<v Speaker 1>day where we had some very well known tech executives

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<v Speaker 1>on Capitol Hill. It does virtually that is uh some

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<v Speaker 1>cases not being able to ironically figure out the technology

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<v Speaker 1>to testify. But we'll set that aside for a second. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>how big of the deal is it or how big

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<v Speaker 1>a deal should we make of it? That we have

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<v Speaker 1>some big existential questions around the role of technology in

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<v Speaker 1>our lives and the behavior of big tech. Well, I

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<v Speaker 1>remember back when tech was the darling, don't you know,

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<v Speaker 1>of course that companies they were going to save the world,

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<v Speaker 1>right and and the boy things have changed, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think a lot of that, I think has been their

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<v Speaker 1>own doing in in a number of the large tech companies.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's a singular focus on making money, which

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<v Speaker 1>is of course critical, But you've got to be thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about other stakeholders. You've got to be thinking about your employees,

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<v Speaker 1>you've got to be thinking about the communities, where you

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<v Speaker 1>do business, and I think and that's on that scorecard,

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<v Speaker 1>and aby these big companies haven't done as well, and

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<v Speaker 1>that has caused the world to take a hard look

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<v Speaker 1>at them. The microscope is out and I I think

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<v Speaker 1>we need to see them get ahead of the curve.

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<v Speaker 1>I think Microsoft, for example, is doing a pretty good

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<v Speaker 1>job of this, actually recognizing that the world needs more

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<v Speaker 1>from big tech. They need big tech to step up

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<v Speaker 1>and solve the big problems instead of solely focusing on

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<v Speaker 1>that quarterly that quarterly reports number. Think about you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I have to look at Facebook, so they've got to

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<v Speaker 1>deal with misinformation and hate on their platform. I think

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<v Speaker 1>they've got to own up to it, and their failure

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<v Speaker 1>to do it, and I think they've been kind of

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<v Speaker 1>stubborn about this is really hurting bright. How much of

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<v Speaker 1>that do you think is tied to the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of these big tech companies are still fairly

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<v Speaker 1>young companies run by their founders. You bring up Microsoft,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's, you know, at this point, an old company. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>The guy who runs at Saty Nodela is not Bill Gates. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>he's a hired hand. Essentially, he's a professional manager, whereas

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<v Speaker 1>Facebook is run by Mark Zuckerberg. Amazon is run by

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<v Speaker 1>Jeff Bezos. They are still in the mindset of building

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<v Speaker 1>their company, building market share, UH, growing as fast as

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<v Speaker 1>they can, as opposed to understanding that they are behemoths now.

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<v Speaker 1>I think some of it may be the lack of experience,

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<v Speaker 1>and someone like such an develop perhaps has been around

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<v Speaker 1>a little longer sort of understands this idea of building

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<v Speaker 1>a loved brand for an infinite timerise And but you

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<v Speaker 1>to look at Brian Chusky and Airbnb. I think the

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<v Speaker 1>Airbnb has done pretty well overall in recognizing that there's

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<v Speaker 1>something bigger than just getting big, that the way that

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<v Speaker 1>you do it and the values that you demonstrate while

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<v Speaker 1>you're going big, UH make a huge difference. A lot

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<v Speaker 1>of it is who you listen to. I think that

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<v Speaker 1>some of the younger tech executives, it isn't the fact

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<v Speaker 1>that they're young and inexperienced as much as are they

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<v Speaker 1>really demonstrating an open mind, a curious learning mindset to

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<v Speaker 1>listen to people who are outside of their type inner

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<v Speaker 1>circle and learn from them. I do think Facebook could

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<v Speaker 1>do a better job in this regard, and Jason, that's

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<v Speaker 1>why diversity and inclusion is so important to make sure

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<v Speaker 1>that you don't have the same kinds of people in

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<v Speaker 1>your company that you talk to all day long. Totally,

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<v Speaker 1>I was that's exactly where I was going to go next,

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<v Speaker 1>and Rob, I do wonder along those exact lines. It

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<v Speaker 1>feels like these dual crises, the pandemic and the virtual

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<v Speaker 1>world we're living in, you know, zoom to zoom or

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<v Speaker 1>however you're communicating with people, as well as a long

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<v Speaker 1>overdue reckoning. When it comes to racial inequality, it feels

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<v Speaker 1>like it's laid bare a lot at all sorts of companies,

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<v Speaker 1>big and small. How do we take advantage of that

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<v Speaker 1>and and maybe reset ourselves? Well, I think we need

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<v Speaker 1>to start with an understanding that we all come to

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<v Speaker 1>the world with our own specific set of goggles and

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<v Speaker 1>lens as we see the world through our own lives

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<v Speaker 1>and our own experiences. But what we sometimes fail to

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<v Speaker 1>understand is that there are a whole broad set of

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<v Speaker 1>experiences out there that diversity can really help us learn from.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll take Airbnb. You know, when the Airbnb face of

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<v Speaker 1>discrimination crisis several years ago on its platform. I think

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<v Speaker 1>part of those calls by the fact that there wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>enough diversity in the leadership of the company back then.

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<v Speaker 1>There are people who would actually experienced discrimination who could

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<v Speaker 1>have helped, I think, be a little more proactive and

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<v Speaker 1>getting and getting on top of these sorts of issues.

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<v Speaker 1>Diversity brings the power of human experience beyond what any

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<v Speaker 1>one individual can do. I love walking into a room

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<v Speaker 1>and seeing people that look different than I do, because

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<v Speaker 1>it means that we're going to get some different perspectives

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<v Speaker 1>that I couldn't begin to understand. But those are critical,

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<v Speaker 1>I think in dealing with dealing with crisis and dealing

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<v Speaker 1>with the racial injustice, you've got to have that understanding

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<v Speaker 1>inside your company at the leadership level. Rob you talked

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<v Speaker 1>about stakeholders earlier on, and that brought me to the

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<v Speaker 1>business roundtables, UH definition of a corporation or purpose of

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<v Speaker 1>a corporation. Last summer they came out they revised their

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<v Speaker 1>mission statement, essentially saying that it's not just for the shareholders.

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<v Speaker 1>Right there, they're not just committing to shareholders, are committing

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<v Speaker 1>to their employees, to customers, two suppliers, to the communities

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<v Speaker 1>as well. How did you interpret that because it was

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<v Speaker 1>sufficiently vague that anyone can walk away with the interpretation

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<v Speaker 1>that they want. Well, I think it was a powerful move. Uh. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>we're talking about abandoning now decades of thinking about the

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<v Speaker 1>purpose of a company and why it exists. Uh. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think the fact that the Business round Table did

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<v Speaker 1>this was a big step. But you're right, there's still

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<v Speaker 1>a lot. There's still a lot to interpret. I think

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<v Speaker 1>it's a recognition though, that the world is tired, but

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<v Speaker 1>companies just running in their narrow lane and only thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about how fast they can get big and how much

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<v Speaker 1>money they can make. The world needs companies to step

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<v Speaker 1>up and think about their communities where they operate, think

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<v Speaker 1>about their customers, and think about their employees. And the

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<v Speaker 1>world's actually pushing companies really hard in this in this respect.

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<v Speaker 1>So in some ways, I think that what the Business

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<v Speaker 1>round Table did is a reflection of where we are

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<v Speaker 1>now as a society and what company what we expect

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<v Speaker 1>from companies. I think companies that uh or it as

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<v Speaker 1>fluff and continue their old way of doing things are

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<v Speaker 1>going to struggle. Companies I think that take it seriously,

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<v Speaker 1>really identify their stakeholders and think about how they can

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<v Speaker 1>make their ship their stakeholders successful. I think they are

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<v Speaker 1>going to be the ones that leap ahead in the

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<v Speaker 1>next five years. Alright, Rob Chestnut, thank you so much.

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<v Speaker 1>Really good to spend some time with you. He's the

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<v Speaker 1>author of the new book it's called Intentional Integrity, How

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<v Speaker 1>Smart Companies can lead an Ethical Revolution, based on his

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<v Speaker 1>experiences and observations working as the top lawyer at Airbnb

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<v Speaker 1>as well as at eBay, background as a federal prosecutor

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<v Speaker 1>as well. Check that out. A good and timely quarantine

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<v Speaker 1>read