WEBVTT - #023 Jason Flom with Johnny Hincapie

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<v Speaker 1>I think we have the best legal system.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just the people that implement it. They get lost

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<v Speaker 2>along the way and forget what their job really is.

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<v Speaker 2>He just kept on trying to remind me that who

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<v Speaker 2>was in authority, who was in control, and how easy

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<v Speaker 2>it was for my body to be found in any

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<v Speaker 2>alley of New York City.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a tough prison when you have the guards going

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<v Speaker 3>against you because they are the biggest gang in the prison.

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<v Speaker 2>They do that. They'll give a guy a life sentence

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<v Speaker 2>and go home in eat spaghetti like it was nothing.

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<v Speaker 2>And anybody that said, well, why would you confess to

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<v Speaker 2>something that you didn't do? My question to them will

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<v Speaker 2>be why wouldn't you confess when somebody's threatening to kill

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<v Speaker 2>your life?

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<v Speaker 4>The judge, he said, how you feel?

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<v Speaker 2>I said, I'm okay. He said, well, the days you're

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<v Speaker 2>lucky day you're going home.

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<v Speaker 4>This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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<v Speaker 4>Jason Flamm. Today, I have a very special guest, a

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<v Speaker 4>fellow New Yorker and someone who was wrongfully convicted of

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<v Speaker 4>one of the most notorious crimes in the history of

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<v Speaker 4>New York, Johnny Incapier.

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<v Speaker 1>It was nineteen ninety one of the bloodiest years in

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<v Speaker 1>city history. The brutal murder of tourists Brian Watkins, killed

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<v Speaker 1>in the subway while defending his family from a pack

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<v Speaker 1>of teens, shook the city to its core.

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<v Speaker 5>Tourist Brian Watkins was in the subway on September third,

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<v Speaker 5>nineteen ninety when he was stabbed in the chest after

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<v Speaker 5>a struggle with at least six teenagers.

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<v Speaker 1>If you lived in New York back then, you'd probably

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<v Speaker 1>remember what it was like. The murder rate was astonishingly hi,

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<v Speaker 1>the police force a lot smaller than it is now,

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<v Speaker 1>and the long term solutions for those were just beginning

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<v Speaker 1>to come into play.

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<v Speaker 3>People, though, were out of patience. A high profile crime

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<v Speaker 3>like this required quick action. Within twenty four hours, seventeens,

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<v Speaker 3>including of an eighteen year old Hincapier, confessed on tape

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<v Speaker 3>to taking part in the robbery. Hincapier would later say

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<v Speaker 3>that his confession was coerced by an abusive detective.

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<v Speaker 6>He says it was a combination of fear, false promises,

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<v Speaker 6>and youthful ignorance that led him to confess to a

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<v Speaker 6>crime that he did not commit.

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<v Speaker 5>He was convicted in nineteen ninety one. Three witnesses came

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<v Speaker 5>forward to say Hincapier was not on the subway platform

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<v Speaker 5>when the stabbing happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Conviction overturned.

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<v Speaker 6>Johnny Encopier is out of prison after serving twenty five

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<v Speaker 6>years in one of the city's most notorious murder cases.

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<v Speaker 5>Johnny Hincapier paid his one dollar bail and ran into

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<v Speaker 5>the arms of his parents.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome, Thank you, Jason, thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 4>So Johnny, let's go back. This is over twenty five

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<v Speaker 4>years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>It's going to be twenty seven in September.

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<v Speaker 4>Right, and you were in high school, correct, living in Queens. Yes,

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<v Speaker 4>that was life back then.

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<v Speaker 2>Life was beautiful for an immigrant family from Columbia, South America.

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<v Speaker 2>First saw being raised in Florida, then coming to New

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<v Speaker 2>York and being in a neighborhood like Bay Terrace, Queens.

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<v Speaker 2>For anybody that knows about that section of Queens back

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<v Speaker 2>in the eighties, especially when I was there, it was

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<v Speaker 2>predominantly all Jewish, Italian and Irish. It's a residential neighborhood.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, you're away from any type of problems in

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<v Speaker 2>any of the places in New York City, which the

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<v Speaker 2>crime rate was extremely high back then. So growing up

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<v Speaker 2>was definitely comfortable around a good group of friends and

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<v Speaker 2>family members.

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<v Speaker 4>Right and then one night, one horrible night, everything changed

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<v Speaker 4>in the worst possible way. There was a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>crime in New York City back then. Back then there

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<v Speaker 4>was borderline hysteria in terms of the fear that which

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<v Speaker 4>the media was really hyping up because it wasn't Mad Max,

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<v Speaker 4>but it was. You know, you had to be careful.

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<v Speaker 4>And a terrible, terrible crime occurred. A family from Utah

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<v Speaker 4>was visiting, took the train. They decided to take the

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<v Speaker 4>subway to the US Open to go see the tennis.

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<v Speaker 4>Can you take us through what happened and what you

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<v Speaker 4>were doing and how you came to be implicated wrongfully

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<v Speaker 4>in this terrible scenario.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh well, growing up in New York, like you, said Jason,

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<v Speaker 2>talking about a time in the eighties where breakdancing had

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<v Speaker 2>came out and with rap music, freestyle and house music,

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<v Speaker 2>which was like the hit type of music other than

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<v Speaker 2>pop music to listen to in the eighties, at least

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<v Speaker 2>in New York. But I grew up after being a dancer.

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<v Speaker 2>I went into becoming a DJ. As a teenager, I

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<v Speaker 2>went to my first club for teens and that kind

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<v Speaker 2>of opened up the door for me to work on

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<v Speaker 2>weekends at other clubs that were promoting teen nights, and

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<v Speaker 2>eventually I ended up working in another major clubs when

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<v Speaker 2>I got older, and even started on a minor level

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<v Speaker 2>promoting with other individuals those clubs. So I was a

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<v Speaker 2>pretty decent minor or pre popular type of guy amongst

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<v Speaker 2>the group of people that knew me. Back in September

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<v Speaker 2>of nineteen ninety, a good popular DJs was having a

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<v Speaker 2>birthday party that he was throwing at Roseline, and everybody

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<v Speaker 2>in New York City made plans to go out that night.

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<v Speaker 2>So the group of individuals that I had met along

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<v Speaker 2>the years and clubs and other parties invited me to

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<v Speaker 2>go out because they haven't seen me for a while,

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<v Speaker 2>And eventually they had friends that they invited, and their

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<v Speaker 2>friends invited other friends. So it was a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people that didn't know each other that went out. But

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<v Speaker 2>there was a small fraction of individuals that didn't quite

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<v Speaker 2>have enough money to get inside the nightclub, so they

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<v Speaker 2>decided to commit a crime, and in the process of

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<v Speaker 2>committing that crime, someone died.

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<v Speaker 4>Some of these kids because you were kids, I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>you were still in high school at the time, went

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<v Speaker 4>down thinking I'm going to rob somebody and get some

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<v Speaker 4>money so I can go to the club. So they

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<v Speaker 4>went into the subway. That's when they encountered this family

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<v Speaker 4>from Utah and these were Hispanic kids, right, and the

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<v Speaker 4>family Hispanic and black kids.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 4>This of course prayed on all the fears that were

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<v Speaker 4>in the media and the classic stereotypes of the time,

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<v Speaker 4>which unfortunately still persisted this day. But at that time

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<v Speaker 4>they were really peaking. And let's face the crime sales

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<v Speaker 4>newspapers too, so it was on the front page. I

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<v Speaker 4>remember the news and this case was on the front

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<v Speaker 4>page for a long time.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, what it was to do was.

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<v Speaker 4>Major, bold faced headlines. What happened when they went down

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<v Speaker 4>to rob this family? Where were you and why did

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<v Speaker 4>they pick on you?

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<v Speaker 2>When I got out of the train station, I made

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<v Speaker 2>literally plans with one friend of mine that night. I

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<v Speaker 2>had my wallet and I gave it to a friend

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<v Speaker 2>of mine to hold for me because he was wearing

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<v Speaker 2>a Fannie pack. So apparently when we got outside to

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<v Speaker 2>the street, I didn't see him and ask people, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>basically where he was, and some individuals indicated that he

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<v Speaker 2>never came out of the train station. Saw on my

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<v Speaker 2>way going back inside the train station, I saw another

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<v Speaker 2>friend and we were talking, and at that moment when

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<v Speaker 2>I got there, he was flirting with some girls and

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<v Speaker 2>I asked him and he told me that he thought

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<v Speaker 2>that he was out of the platform. So I was

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<v Speaker 2>gonna go back upstairs, but I said, you know what,

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<v Speaker 2>let me check and let me go downstairs. And I

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<v Speaker 2>started going down the escalators, but I heard like a

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<v Speaker 2>big commotion of people screaming and saw people coming running

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<v Speaker 2>up towards the escalators towards me. So I never made

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<v Speaker 2>it downstairs to the platform, and I turned around with

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<v Speaker 2>everybody that was coming towards me, and I just went

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<v Speaker 2>out to the street. I decided to go to Roseland

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<v Speaker 2>and I got online where I saw other people that

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<v Speaker 2>I knew, and maybe like a couple of minutes later,

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<v Speaker 2>the group of individuals that was downstairs in the subway

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<v Speaker 2>platform that committed the crime came then and we all

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<v Speaker 2>went inside of Rosan after an individual decided to volunteer

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<v Speaker 2>to buy tickets for everyone. But at the end of

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<v Speaker 2>the day, with the news was reporting that these group

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<v Speaker 2>of individuals that I told you about that stood back

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<v Speaker 2>in the platform is that they didn't have enough money

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<v Speaker 2>to go inside a roseland and they decided to rob

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<v Speaker 2>a family, which they did not know. They were tourists.

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<v Speaker 2>They were visiting New York, they were planning to go

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<v Speaker 2>see the tennis tournament, and in the process of that

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<v Speaker 2>young twenty two year old man with the name of

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<v Speaker 2>Brian Watkins died behind a minor stab wound towards the

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<v Speaker 2>art of his heart.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, there was more to it than that as well, right,

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<v Speaker 4>because it started as a robbery, and as these things do,

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<v Speaker 4>it progressed from there, right because I think the kids

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<v Speaker 4>they attacked the mother, if I remember correctly, and then

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<v Speaker 4>the son, which was what really brought everybody's focus to

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<v Speaker 4>this case, because the son was sort of a heroic kid.

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<v Speaker 4>Brian Watkins was twenty two at the time, and he

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<v Speaker 4>came to the aid of his mother and he tried

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<v Speaker 4>to fight back and protect her from these predators. And

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<v Speaker 4>then one of them stabbed him and they ran out

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<v Speaker 4>of the subway, and he ran after them and collapsed

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<v Speaker 4>on the stairs and die like in a movie. Right,

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<v Speaker 4>just a horrible, horrible thing. And you know, I guess

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<v Speaker 4>it really triggered again everyone's emotions, especially because everyone would

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<v Speaker 4>hope that they would behave the way that this kid

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<v Speaker 4>did in trying to defend his family and his mother.

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<v Speaker 4>So it was just a real flashpoint. And we know

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<v Speaker 4>in these cases when that kind of stuff happens and

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<v Speaker 4>there's a lot of media attention, the cops they play

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<v Speaker 4>a little loose with the rules a lot of times. Right,

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<v Speaker 4>they become hyper focused on solving the crime. There may

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<v Speaker 4>be accolades for them, right if they do. There may

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<v Speaker 4>be promotions involved in any case. At a minimum, it'll

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<v Speaker 4>take away the pressure that they're feeling from their bosses

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<v Speaker 4>when when they get this case resolved. And in this case,

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<v Speaker 4>they knew they had a group of kids. It's got

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<v Speaker 4>to be tricky to solve a case like that. It's

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<v Speaker 4>hard enough to identify one individual in a single perpetrator crime,

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<v Speaker 4>but here you have a whole group of kids. So

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<v Speaker 4>you happen to have the misfortune, the terrible misfortune of

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<v Speaker 4>being inside the club with the kids who actually committed

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<v Speaker 4>this crime. But did you know at that time that

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<v Speaker 4>they had committed the crime?

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<v Speaker 2>No, not at all. No one had mentioned anything about

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<v Speaker 2>it before nor after the fact. And I got caught

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<v Speaker 2>up with it only because one of the individuals that

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<v Speaker 2>did commit the crime I knew from going to school

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<v Speaker 2>with him, and he was one of the individuals that

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<v Speaker 2>I hadn't seen in such a long time invited me

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<v Speaker 2>to go out that night, and because he knew my

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<v Speaker 2>phone number. When the detectives asked him the list of

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<v Speaker 2>individuals or the names of individuals that they wanted from

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<v Speaker 2>him that went out to the colt, they never asked

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<v Speaker 2>him that participated in the crime with him, that committed

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<v Speaker 2>the crime, but they went out with him that night.

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<v Speaker 2>He listed me and a few other individuals that he

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<v Speaker 2>knew their phone numbers, and that's how they came to

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<v Speaker 2>my house and dragged me out and took me to

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<v Speaker 2>the precinct.

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<v Speaker 4>So you got dragged out? You were just home with

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<v Speaker 4>your parents? Was it daytime? Nighttime? What was the scenario?

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<v Speaker 2>It was already evening and I was at home and

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<v Speaker 2>the detectives came into my house after they rang the

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<v Speaker 2>bell and my mother opened the door and they just

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<v Speaker 2>barged in and they asked my mother if I was home,

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<v Speaker 2>and my mother was inquiring why did they were asking

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<v Speaker 2>about me? And they said that they wanted to ask

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<v Speaker 2>me questions about a stolen car. So she called me

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<v Speaker 2>and I came downstairs. They said they wanted to take

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<v Speaker 2>me to the precinct, and my mother wanted to come along.

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<v Speaker 2>And they asked my mother how old I was, and

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<v Speaker 2>she said that I just turned eighteen, and they said

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<v Speaker 2>there was no need for that, and she kept on

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<v Speaker 2>inquiring why and the until they finally confessed that they

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to question me about a homicide that took place

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<v Speaker 2>in the subway station. And thereafter they just took me

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<v Speaker 2>outside and placed me in their police car.

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<v Speaker 4>And so she didn't go with you.

0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.000
<v Speaker 2>No, they told her that she couldn't come. She even

0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:43.280
<v Speaker 2>attempted to call an attorney, but it was a holiday,

0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:45.360
<v Speaker 2>was labor days, so she wasn't able to get in

0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:48.520
<v Speaker 2>contact with anybody. And they took me all by myself

0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:50.480
<v Speaker 2>and the car with the rest of the detectives that

0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.480
<v Speaker 2>were outside and even another car that was escorting them

0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:57.840
<v Speaker 2>from a precinct from my neighborhood into Manhattan's North Precinct.

0:11:57.960 --> 0:11:59.200
<v Speaker 4>So you got to take it all the way across

0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:01.680
<v Speaker 4>the bridge into this city, and then you end up

0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.120
<v Speaker 4>in the North Precinct and then the town North to

0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.600
<v Speaker 4>be exactly and did they begin interrogating you immediately or

0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:09.360
<v Speaker 4>did they keep you on the holding cell? What happened?

0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:13.240
<v Speaker 2>Well, when I got there, the detectives handcuffed me as

0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:15.240
<v Speaker 2>soon as I came out of the car, and one

0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:17.160
<v Speaker 2>of the detectives told me that there was a lot

0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:20.000
<v Speaker 2>of media outside the precinct, so he said that it

0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:21.960
<v Speaker 2>was in my best interest that he wanted to cover

0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:25.560
<v Speaker 2>my face with his coat and handcuffed me. He did

0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.400
<v Speaker 2>that exactly. He took me inside. I couldn't see any

0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.440
<v Speaker 2>of the media. I just heard the cameras flashing and

0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:35.679
<v Speaker 2>people yelling things out, like asking questions or who was

0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:38.200
<v Speaker 2>I Who was it that the detectives were bringing in.

0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:40.800
<v Speaker 2>And they brought me inside and they were still guiding

0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:42.960
<v Speaker 2>me until they got me. It was for them a

0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.080
<v Speaker 2>secure place that the media wasn't able to see me

0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.400
<v Speaker 2>in a corridor of the precinct. And then they took

0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.560
<v Speaker 2>me upstairs to a room where I saw it was

0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:55.000
<v Speaker 2>a double bunks beds and there was the detectives in

0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.719
<v Speaker 2>a T shirt laying down smoking a cigarette, and they

0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.240
<v Speaker 2>uncuffed me and they some word that he wanted me

0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:03.720
<v Speaker 2>to be placed, and he said place him in the

0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.200
<v Speaker 2>back of the room where the tables at in the chair.

0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.200
<v Speaker 4>And then they began interrogating you soon after that.

0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:13.280
<v Speaker 2>Well interesting enough in my case, I came to find

0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:17.480
<v Speaker 2>this out much later. The lead detective in my case

0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:24.480
<v Speaker 2>was Detective Carlos Gonzalez, the same detective that was in

0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.840
<v Speaker 2>the investigation of the Central Park five and he had

0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:31.719
<v Speaker 2>just been transferred a little less than a year to

0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:35.960
<v Speaker 2>Midtown North. So the detective that was in the room,

0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.800
<v Speaker 2>he was discussing with Carlos Gonzalez. I don't know what,

0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.840
<v Speaker 2>but throughout the whole entire interrogation, he kept on walking

0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.480
<v Speaker 2>in and out of the room to just talk with

0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:50.720
<v Speaker 2>Detective Gonzales. And when I was left alone in that

0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:54.520
<v Speaker 2>room with Detective Casey, who was the detective that interrogated me,

0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:58.559
<v Speaker 2>keep in mind that I'm still handcuffed in the chair.

0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.560
<v Speaker 2>And when I was handcuffed, the detective asked me what

0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.000
<v Speaker 2>happened that night, and I told him the truth. I

0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:07.719
<v Speaker 2>told him exactly what I did from the moment I

0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:12.079
<v Speaker 2>left to my house to go to Roseland and immediately,

0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:14.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, he didn't believe me. He kept on saying

0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:16.640
<v Speaker 2>that he didn't believe me. He kept on calling me

0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.880
<v Speaker 2>a liar throughout this whole process until he went and

0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:24.240
<v Speaker 2>bursted into a big rage and started blowing smoking my

0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:26.920
<v Speaker 2>face from the cigarette that he was smoking. He just

0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:30.560
<v Speaker 2>decided to really get belligerent with me until he finally

0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.320
<v Speaker 2>started to beat me up. And when he beat me up,

0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:36.880
<v Speaker 2>I was crying. There was like a moment of silence.

0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:40.480
<v Speaker 2>There was a long pause, and he basically told me

0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:42.200
<v Speaker 2>that I was never going to make it out alive

0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:47.080
<v Speaker 2>from that precinct unless I decided to comply with him

0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:51.640
<v Speaker 2>in memorizing a story Jesus Christ. He just kept on

0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.440
<v Speaker 2>trying to remind me that who was in authority, who

0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:58.720
<v Speaker 2>was in control, and how easy it was for my

0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.000
<v Speaker 2>body to be found in any alley of New York

0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:05.520
<v Speaker 2>City and nobody would care about it, because the police

0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:09.000
<v Speaker 2>department in New York who he worked for, had it

0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.840
<v Speaker 2>that simple in their power to do such a thing,

0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:14.040
<v Speaker 2>and nobody would even point a finger to.

0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:17.280
<v Speaker 4>Them, like a Central American dictatorship or something. This is

0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:20.080
<v Speaker 4>supposed to be New York City, which is located in America,

0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:22.720
<v Speaker 4>the United States, exactly. Yeah, that's supposed to be the

0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:26.240
<v Speaker 4>way it is, obviously. I mean, so this is an

0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:30.360
<v Speaker 4>unbelievably terrifying situation to find yourself and you're eighteen years old.

0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.640
<v Speaker 4>We know that the brain doesn't fully develop until you're

0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:36.880
<v Speaker 4>about twenty five, and we know that these confessions, these

0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:41.720
<v Speaker 4>false confessions, happen so frequently with teenagers because you don't

0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:43.880
<v Speaker 4>have enough life experience at that point to be able

0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:47.960
<v Speaker 4>to draw on, to be able to rationalize and say, well,

0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:51.520
<v Speaker 4>he can't really take me and kill me and dump

0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:54.120
<v Speaker 4>my body, because the rational mind would say, well, that

0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:57.160
<v Speaker 4>can't happen because my mom saw them come and take me.

0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:00.000
<v Speaker 4>But then again, who knows how you would react. Anybody

0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:04.440
<v Speaker 4>in that situation would be in a state of complete disorientation,

0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:06.400
<v Speaker 4>which is exactly what they were after.

0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:06.800
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:10.880
<v Speaker 4>They were well aware that you couldn't withstand as a

0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:14.240
<v Speaker 4>teenage boy with no experience probably with this type of

0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:20.320
<v Speaker 4>violence or mental pressure, psychological pressure. They knew that they

0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:21.840
<v Speaker 4>were going to be able to get you to say

0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:26.240
<v Speaker 4>almost anything if they took these tactics. And what happened.

0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.360
<v Speaker 4>Did they give you a piece of paper to sign?

0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:30.960
<v Speaker 4>Is that what the next thing was? And how I mean,

0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:32.440
<v Speaker 4>how long we were in there? At what point did you

0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:34.120
<v Speaker 4>get a lawyer? Did they ever ask you if you

0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:34.720
<v Speaker 4>wanted a lawyer.

0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, let me just say this, Jason, before I get

0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:40.400
<v Speaker 2>to answering that part of your question. Everything that you

0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:43.360
<v Speaker 2>just said is absolutely true. You hit it right on

0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.840
<v Speaker 2>the head. New York had a technique that they call

0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:51.280
<v Speaker 2>the read technique where detectives basically questioned an individual to

0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:53.520
<v Speaker 2>find out whether he's telling the truth or he's lying,

0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:55.760
<v Speaker 2>and if they believe that he's lying, then they start

0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:59.440
<v Speaker 2>asking him questions as he's guilty, just to make him

0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:02.000
<v Speaker 2>to confess because they don't believe. In my case, they

0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:05.119
<v Speaker 2>didn't do any of that. This detective here, from the beginning,

0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:07.960
<v Speaker 2>he just said that I was lying and then transition

0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:10.720
<v Speaker 2>into beating me up, which he wasn't supposed to do

0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.840
<v Speaker 2>yet he violated that. Now when I say that he

0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.480
<v Speaker 2>was threatening to take my life, yeah, that's absolutely true.

0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:20.040
<v Speaker 2>A teenager like myself at that time, at that age,

0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:24.800
<v Speaker 2>eighteen years old, Yeah, my mind wasn't fully developed, right,

0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.360
<v Speaker 2>But I truly believe that any individual who has been

0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:31.480
<v Speaker 2>threatened with their lives being taken, I don't care how

0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:34.200
<v Speaker 2>old you are, right, is scared for their life. That

0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:38.280
<v Speaker 2>those individuals that are physically pounding on you are going

0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:40.760
<v Speaker 2>to kill you because they say that's exactly what they're

0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.800
<v Speaker 2>going to do, whether you're eighteen or fifty. And anybody

0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:45.720
<v Speaker 2>that would say, well, why would you confess to something

0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:48.240
<v Speaker 2>that you didn't do, my question to them will be

0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.000
<v Speaker 2>why wouldn't you confess? It's exactly to what I just

0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:53.360
<v Speaker 2>mentioned when somebody's threatening to kill your life.

0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:55.560
<v Speaker 4>And not only that, but you add to it the

0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.679
<v Speaker 4>fact that I imagine you grew up like I grew up,

0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:00.960
<v Speaker 4>thinking that the police were there to protect you, right,

0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:03.879
<v Speaker 4>and you respect the police right, and they respect you,

0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:05.679
<v Speaker 4>and you know it says right on the side of

0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.400
<v Speaker 4>the car, to protect and serve right. And I think

0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:11.480
<v Speaker 4>most police that is the approach that they take. But

0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:13.439
<v Speaker 4>then there's bad ones, and the bad ones like this

0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:17.439
<v Speaker 4>guy Gonzalez, who we know was responsible for extracting the

0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:20.119
<v Speaker 4>false confessions in the Central Park Geogra case, the notorious

0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:23.080
<v Speaker 4>Central Park Jogra case. He's one of those guys who

0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:26.560
<v Speaker 4>obviously just didn't give a fuck. It's really hard for

0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:29.119
<v Speaker 4>us who are what do you want to call it,

0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:34.199
<v Speaker 4>empathetic human beings. It's hard for us to really imagine

0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:38.080
<v Speaker 4>what could cause somebody to go so far wrong to

0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.400
<v Speaker 4>take somebody. They had no idea, they had no evidence.

0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:43.960
<v Speaker 4>There was no evidence with you. There's nothing connecting you

0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:46.520
<v Speaker 4>to this case. There wasn't even anybody at this point

0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:48.439
<v Speaker 4>saying that you did it. I don't believe there was

0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.200
<v Speaker 4>just this guy who said, I know this guy Johnny

0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:53.320
<v Speaker 4>and Gtpia, I have his phone number in my phone

0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:55.000
<v Speaker 4>whatever and not my phone right.

0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:57.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But by the time they took me to Precinct,

0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:02.400
<v Speaker 2>they already had the fashion of the individual that stabbed

0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:04.800
<v Speaker 2>Brian Watkins and killed him, so they knew who had

0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:08.680
<v Speaker 2>killed him. But, like you said, aside from being over

0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.840
<v Speaker 2>zealous or any other elements that you want to include,

0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:16.359
<v Speaker 2>from racism and just being biased and whatsoever, this detective

0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.320
<v Speaker 2>just wanted to move up the ladder and didn't care

0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:21.879
<v Speaker 2>for him whether I was telling the truth or not.

0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:24.840
<v Speaker 2>He just wanted to tag me along with everybody else,

0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.080
<v Speaker 2>only because one individual knew me.

0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:30.320
<v Speaker 4>Right, knew you. But to your knowledge at that point

0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.439
<v Speaker 4>in time, had any of the other individuals implicated you

0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:36.160
<v Speaker 4>in the crime. No, So that's just such a random

0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:40.240
<v Speaker 4>and terrible twist of fate that they just decided because

0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:41.679
<v Speaker 4>at some point somebody had to say, well, let's go

0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:43.199
<v Speaker 4>pick him up. Well, well, let's not go pick that

0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:45.720
<v Speaker 4>guy up. He we don't know anything about him. We

0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:47.440
<v Speaker 4>go pick him up for it doesn't make any sense.

0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:52.080
<v Speaker 4>So from that to beating this false confession out of you,

0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:54.240
<v Speaker 4>literally beating it out of you, and we know, literally

0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:57.280
<v Speaker 4>beating it into me, right, beating it into you, threatening

0:19:57.280 --> 0:19:59.359
<v Speaker 4>you with death. Now all of a sudden, you're in

0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:02.240
<v Speaker 4>the system, you've confessed, You're not going home, you're not

0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:06.000
<v Speaker 4>going anywhere. You're going to trial. And that trial was

0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:08.919
<v Speaker 4>a circus, let's face it, right, I mean, this was

0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:12.920
<v Speaker 4>the biggest news in New York. And you were tried

0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:15.040
<v Speaker 4>with some of the other kids together, right.

0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:17.880
<v Speaker 2>Yes, there was two trials and I was tried in

0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:22.000
<v Speaker 2>the first trial. Interesting before I was taken to the

0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:25.359
<v Speaker 2>priest and there was one individual that participated in the

0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:28.199
<v Speaker 2>crime and made a confession and said to them that

0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.040
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't even there. So everybody that he knew that

0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:34.560
<v Speaker 2>participated in the crime, he mentioned that. He said six

0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:38.479
<v Speaker 2>people committed the crime, not and two people left. And

0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.760
<v Speaker 2>those two people that left that went out with everybody

0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:46.200
<v Speaker 2>else that got to that train station was Johnny and Kevin.

0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:49.840
<v Speaker 2>So Johnny and Kevin had left. You had the district attorney.

0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:52.960
<v Speaker 2>The ADA kept on trying to implicate me, and this

0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:55.600
<v Speaker 2>individual kept on correcting the ADA, and he said, no,

0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:57.879
<v Speaker 2>Johnny was not there. It was only six of us,

0:20:57.960 --> 0:20:59.600
<v Speaker 2>not eight of us. They did it about practicing me

0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:05.159
<v Speaker 2>around six times, and this individual was separated from trial

0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:07.800
<v Speaker 2>then placed in the second trial because the ADA and

0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:11.560
<v Speaker 2>the judge decided that they didn't want the jury to

0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:17.840
<v Speaker 2>hear my exportory information from him to them, so they

0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:20.239
<v Speaker 2>kept them away from me so the jury couldn't hear this.

0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.919
<v Speaker 2>And they tried me along with other individuals. Where a

0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:25.960
<v Speaker 2>jury looking at a group of guys say, you know,

0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:27.320
<v Speaker 2>everybody's guilty.

0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:30.000
<v Speaker 4>Right, because the jury, the psychology of a jury would

0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:32.360
<v Speaker 4>seem to be that if there's four of you together

0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:35.080
<v Speaker 4>and the other three guys, were the other three guys

0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:37.960
<v Speaker 4>all guilty, guys, yeah on your side, right, So there

0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:42.360
<v Speaker 4>was there was three in you, so you're guilty by association, literally,

0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:45.800
<v Speaker 4>and the idea that they're going well justice, Most people

0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:48.200
<v Speaker 4>think going into the jury box, the justice system works.

0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:50.320
<v Speaker 4>If they got these guys here, they must be the guys.

0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:53.320
<v Speaker 4>This is a terrible crime. Everybody can relate to this.

0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:58.200
<v Speaker 4>Poor families ordeal. You're there must be a reason, right,

0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:14.760
<v Speaker 4>must be a reason. So you are ultimately convicted and

0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:16.600
<v Speaker 4>sentenced to twenty five.

0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:20.840
<v Speaker 2>Years to life only due to a false confession, like

0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:27.040
<v Speaker 2>you said, no weapon, no knowledge, no malice, harbored, no identification,

0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:31.200
<v Speaker 2>no DNA, nothing but a false confession.

0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:33.639
<v Speaker 4>Not one witness placed you at the scene, no one,

0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:35.880
<v Speaker 4>not the family, no one, nobody.

0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:40.080
<v Speaker 2>Amazing false confession and sentenced to the same exact sentence

0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:44.520
<v Speaker 2>that everyone else in my case received, including the individual

0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:46.040
<v Speaker 2>that killed the victim in this case.

0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:48.640
<v Speaker 4>So you know, I'm getting the chills now thinking about this,

0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:53.000
<v Speaker 4>and now you're here to share the truth that these

0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:56.040
<v Speaker 4>false confessions are a plague that we have in our

0:22:56.160 --> 0:23:01.119
<v Speaker 4>justice system, and you know, we're making great progress in

0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:05.600
<v Speaker 4>terms of New York State just passed finally mandatory videotaping

0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:06.360
<v Speaker 4>of interrogations.

0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:09.080
<v Speaker 2>Kushell was a part of Proud to say.

0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:11.159
<v Speaker 4>I know you were, and I'm glad you mentioned that,

0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:14.640
<v Speaker 4>because nobody could deny you the right to do anything

0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:17.200
<v Speaker 4>that you want after what you've been through, But instead

0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:20.800
<v Speaker 4>you and almost every other wrongfully convicted person I know,

0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:25.360
<v Speaker 4>spends a huge amount of your time and energy fighting

0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:27.960
<v Speaker 4>to prevent future wrongful convictions for people that you don't

0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:32.119
<v Speaker 4>even know, right, It's an amazing thing how you're able

0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:38.240
<v Speaker 4>to channel that impossibly horrible experience into something so positive.

0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:40.760
<v Speaker 4>And yeah, so my hat's off to you for helping

0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:44.679
<v Speaker 4>with that effort, because just that simple change is going

0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:48.560
<v Speaker 4>to make such a big difference. Do you think if

0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:52.960
<v Speaker 4>your interrogation had been videotaped, is there any possibility of

0:23:53.000 --> 0:23:54.040
<v Speaker 4>a jury could convict you?

0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:55.080
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely not.

0:23:55.520 --> 0:23:58.439
<v Speaker 4>Like, let's imagine this. Let's imagine that prosecutor goes up

0:23:58.440 --> 0:24:01.520
<v Speaker 4>in the courtroom and is playing the video and here, oh,

0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:02.879
<v Speaker 4>what did he hit him with? There? Was that a

0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:03.680
<v Speaker 4>left or a right?

0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:04.120
<v Speaker 2>Right?

0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:06.639
<v Speaker 4>Oh, he's handcuffed a chair. Oh now he's just threatened

0:24:06.640 --> 0:24:09.320
<v Speaker 4>to kill him. And the jury's gonna go, wait, what

0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:14.120
<v Speaker 4>you can't do that. Everybody knows you can't do that,

0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:16.840
<v Speaker 4>And of course you would confess. When I interviewed Raymond

0:24:16.840 --> 0:24:19.880
<v Speaker 4>Santana on the show, and he explained, you know, going

0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:23.439
<v Speaker 4>through a scenario different than yours, but similar. His was

0:24:23.480 --> 0:24:26.760
<v Speaker 4>more psychological torture than anything else. But he was fourteen

0:24:27.040 --> 0:24:29.679
<v Speaker 4>and his interrogation went on, I mean, with no sleep

0:24:29.720 --> 0:24:32.679
<v Speaker 4>and no food and no nothing, and just for a long,

0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:35.639
<v Speaker 4>long time, and they did threaten to kill him. I

0:24:35.680 --> 0:24:36.880
<v Speaker 4>said to him, by the end of it, you would

0:24:36.880 --> 0:24:39.960
<v Speaker 4>have confessed to kidnapping the Lindbergh baby. He says, absolutely

0:24:40.240 --> 0:24:42.840
<v Speaker 4>anything to make it stop, right, And I imagine that's

0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:44.040
<v Speaker 4>probably true for you too.

0:24:44.240 --> 0:24:46.280
<v Speaker 2>You know. And that's interesting that you say that, because

0:24:46.280 --> 0:24:49.639
<v Speaker 2>it only goes to show how powerful these techniques and

0:24:49.720 --> 0:24:53.320
<v Speaker 2>tactics are when used in getting someone to make a

0:24:53.320 --> 0:24:58.600
<v Speaker 2>false confession. Because most false confessions they have individuals there

0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:02.480
<v Speaker 2>anywhere from five to ten to fifteen hours. With me,

0:25:03.480 --> 0:25:06.200
<v Speaker 2>that wasn't even the case. I was there for four hours,

0:25:06.560 --> 0:25:10.120
<v Speaker 2>and in those four hours I confessed immediately because they

0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:14.600
<v Speaker 2>put their hands on me. This detective Casey physically beat

0:25:14.680 --> 0:25:19.720
<v Speaker 2>me up. I was just eighteen for three months, no

0:25:19.800 --> 0:25:23.680
<v Speaker 2>trouble with the law, had no criminal record whatsoever. This

0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:28.639
<v Speaker 2>is my first time inside a police precinct and, like

0:25:28.680 --> 0:25:32.840
<v Speaker 2>you said, looking up to police officers, being taught and

0:25:32.920 --> 0:25:35.960
<v Speaker 2>raised by my parents to trust in them when anything

0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:38.720
<v Speaker 2>goes wrong, if you had any questions, you stop a

0:25:38.720 --> 0:25:41.520
<v Speaker 2>police officer in the middle of the street and ask

0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:45.720
<v Speaker 2>him for help. And yet inside this precinct, I'm being

0:25:45.880 --> 0:25:50.159
<v Speaker 2>beat up and threatened to die, of course exactly.

0:25:50.240 --> 0:25:51.800
<v Speaker 4>You weren't a thug, you weren't a street kid, you

0:25:51.840 --> 0:25:54.000
<v Speaker 4>weren't even a fighter. You're an artistic guy, right, You're

0:25:54.000 --> 0:25:56.840
<v Speaker 4>a guy who was doing music. I know you got

0:25:56.840 --> 0:26:00.520
<v Speaker 4>into theater and dancing and things like that. My mind

0:26:00.760 --> 0:26:03.240
<v Speaker 4>is exploding just thinking about what you were going through.

0:26:03.280 --> 0:26:06.240
<v Speaker 4>And it's so.

0:26:05.200 --> 0:26:07.920
<v Speaker 2>And let me just give you a little interesting fact.

0:26:08.200 --> 0:26:10.919
<v Speaker 2>If you would have saw a picture of me, like

0:26:11.040 --> 0:26:14.040
<v Speaker 2>a week before or a couple of days before I

0:26:14.160 --> 0:26:16.840
<v Speaker 2>was taken into that precinct, and then you look at

0:26:16.840 --> 0:26:20.360
<v Speaker 2>the video tape confession. I had long hair back then,

0:26:20.760 --> 0:26:24.200
<v Speaker 2>not very long, but long that I was growing, and

0:26:24.480 --> 0:26:26.639
<v Speaker 2>it was pushed back, and on the side of my

0:26:26.840 --> 0:26:30.240
<v Speaker 2>head you saw two ball spots from the way that

0:26:30.320 --> 0:26:34.000
<v Speaker 2>the detective was pulling my hair out. And you would

0:26:34.080 --> 0:26:37.680
<v Speaker 2>think that showing this video tape confession to a jury,

0:26:37.880 --> 0:26:41.080
<v Speaker 2>they would see the truth and how this detective beat

0:26:41.160 --> 0:26:44.439
<v Speaker 2>me up. But back then, nobody did not know anything

0:26:44.480 --> 0:26:48.360
<v Speaker 2>about false confessions. So introducing a confession to a jury,

0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:53.399
<v Speaker 2>they're believing it immediately and disregarding the physical abuse and

0:26:53.520 --> 0:26:55.280
<v Speaker 2>signs on my head of what took place.

0:26:55.600 --> 0:26:58.640
<v Speaker 4>Did your lawyer bring that up? Of course, he did,

0:26:58.800 --> 0:27:00.440
<v Speaker 4>so you had a competent attorney.

0:27:01.160 --> 0:27:05.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, I wouldn't say competent, but he brought it up

0:27:05.080 --> 0:27:07.920
<v Speaker 2>to a minimal factor, you know, because he was really

0:27:08.080 --> 0:27:11.560
<v Speaker 2>arguing another issue in my case more than this, because

0:27:11.560 --> 0:27:13.920
<v Speaker 2>he believed that, no matter how much I wanted to

0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:18.760
<v Speaker 2>take the stand, because I was eighteen and experience, that

0:27:19.080 --> 0:27:22.320
<v Speaker 2>the DA having this false confession was going to walk

0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:25.439
<v Speaker 2>all over me on that stand and prove to the

0:27:25.520 --> 0:27:29.399
<v Speaker 2>jury that that confession was to be taken to its veracity.

0:27:29.640 --> 0:27:31.520
<v Speaker 4>It probably would have to. I mean, I don't think

0:27:31.520 --> 0:27:33.760
<v Speaker 4>there was any good answer to that situation. I think

0:27:33.800 --> 0:27:36.760
<v Speaker 4>you were doomed before you walked into that courtroom. So

0:27:37.400 --> 0:27:41.240
<v Speaker 4>you end up being convicted and sentenced to twenty five

0:27:41.320 --> 0:27:44.240
<v Speaker 4>years to life. And what prison did they take you

0:27:44.280 --> 0:27:45.360
<v Speaker 4>to at that point.

0:27:45.200 --> 0:27:48.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, after I left Rikers Island, which, let me just say,

0:27:48.840 --> 0:27:53.800
<v Speaker 2>Rykers Island back then was atrocious. It was a hell hole.

0:27:54.440 --> 0:27:59.560
<v Speaker 2>I literally literally went through hell every single day in

0:27:59.680 --> 0:28:02.760
<v Speaker 2>Rikers Island. From the moment that I got there, I

0:28:02.800 --> 0:28:05.199
<v Speaker 2>was told that if I wanted to stay alive, I

0:28:05.280 --> 0:28:09.119
<v Speaker 2>had it to fight. And the thing about it is

0:28:09.160 --> 0:28:13.000
<v Speaker 2>that the first people that were attacking me in Rikers

0:28:13.080 --> 0:28:17.160
<v Speaker 2>Island was the very CEOs, the very correction officers. So

0:28:17.200 --> 0:28:20.240
<v Speaker 2>to fight a correction officer that has the power and

0:28:20.359 --> 0:28:23.360
<v Speaker 2>already going through this transition of being beat up by

0:28:23.359 --> 0:28:27.000
<v Speaker 2>a detective from the police department, I was afraid to

0:28:27.040 --> 0:28:30.040
<v Speaker 2>fight back. I didn't know how to fight back.

0:28:30.560 --> 0:28:32.000
<v Speaker 4>What are you supposed to do? I'm going to fight

0:28:32.000 --> 0:28:33.920
<v Speaker 4>a correction officer that doesn't even make any sense. And

0:28:33.960 --> 0:28:35.640
<v Speaker 4>you're not I mean you're not a small guy. You're

0:28:35.640 --> 0:28:37.160
<v Speaker 4>not a big guy either. I mean you're not like.

0:28:37.560 --> 0:28:39.360
<v Speaker 2>Back then, I weighed one hundred and fifty.

0:28:39.200 --> 0:28:42.360
<v Speaker 4>Pounds exactly right. So what'd you do?

0:28:43.360 --> 0:28:46.080
<v Speaker 2>I just took the beating. I took the beating. I

0:28:46.200 --> 0:28:49.560
<v Speaker 2>cried all night behind it, and every single day I

0:28:49.640 --> 0:28:53.000
<v Speaker 2>was harassed by correction officers no matter where I went

0:28:53.080 --> 0:28:55.800
<v Speaker 2>because of the notoriety of my case, and it was

0:28:55.840 --> 0:28:59.400
<v Speaker 2>all over the news for so long, and correction officers

0:28:59.400 --> 0:29:01.760
<v Speaker 2>just kept on bringing it up against me until it

0:29:01.840 --> 0:29:04.959
<v Speaker 2>got to the point where they got other inmates and

0:29:05.040 --> 0:29:09.920
<v Speaker 2>Rikers Onland to attack me. And that's where I decided

0:29:09.960 --> 0:29:12.600
<v Speaker 2>to put my hands up and fight back to the

0:29:12.640 --> 0:29:15.360
<v Speaker 2>best of my ability. But at the end of the day,

0:29:15.760 --> 0:29:18.440
<v Speaker 2>that placed there you know, a lot of people they

0:29:18.440 --> 0:29:21.840
<v Speaker 2>were fighting with razors and knives, and I didn't know

0:29:21.920 --> 0:29:24.000
<v Speaker 2>how to hold one, and I was afraid to even

0:29:24.120 --> 0:29:27.040
<v Speaker 2>use one. So when they used to pull out their

0:29:27.160 --> 0:29:29.920
<v Speaker 2>knives and their raisers, I used to just comply and

0:29:29.920 --> 0:29:31.440
<v Speaker 2>tell them, what do you want? What are you asking

0:29:31.480 --> 0:29:34.200
<v Speaker 2>here for? Or if they were slapping me or kicking me,

0:29:34.280 --> 0:29:36.960
<v Speaker 2>or I just took it. I didn't want no cuts

0:29:36.960 --> 0:29:39.280
<v Speaker 2>in my face. I didn't want to be stabbed. I

0:29:39.320 --> 0:29:42.400
<v Speaker 2>was afraid. I was alone. I was eighteen, and I

0:29:42.400 --> 0:29:44.760
<v Speaker 2>didn't know how to deal with it. So I dealt

0:29:44.760 --> 0:29:47.320
<v Speaker 2>with with all the fear in the world that I

0:29:47.400 --> 0:29:50.920
<v Speaker 2>was going through. And until I went upstate to the

0:29:50.960 --> 0:29:54.680
<v Speaker 2>state prison, it was the same treatment because although the

0:29:54.760 --> 0:29:59.280
<v Speaker 2>notoriety wasn't the same, but you know, you had now

0:29:59.480 --> 0:30:02.640
<v Speaker 2>a record and a file that was created by the

0:30:02.680 --> 0:30:05.840
<v Speaker 2>District Attorney's office and the New York City Department of

0:30:05.920 --> 0:30:09.920
<v Speaker 2>Corrections that was following me upstate, and this file was

0:30:09.960 --> 0:30:12.440
<v Speaker 2>like a red flag making me sound like I'm the

0:30:12.480 --> 0:30:14.440
<v Speaker 2>worst of the worst. And you're keep in mind, I

0:30:14.520 --> 0:30:18.280
<v Speaker 2>wasn't even in the individual that took this victim's life.

0:30:18.440 --> 0:30:23.000
<v Speaker 2>They had me charged as an accomplice, Yet I'm being

0:30:23.040 --> 0:30:26.360
<v Speaker 2>treated like if I was the perpetrator in this case.

0:30:26.640 --> 0:30:31.600
<v Speaker 2>So even upstate, where there's even more bias and more racism,

0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:34.720
<v Speaker 2>I still went through a lot of more horror. I

0:30:34.840 --> 0:30:39.800
<v Speaker 2>was placed in segregation, I was set up with weapons.

0:30:39.960 --> 0:30:42.400
<v Speaker 2>Just be shown how easily I could have been in

0:30:42.440 --> 0:30:47.240
<v Speaker 2>segregation for years. They also had other inmates attempted to

0:30:47.320 --> 0:30:50.880
<v Speaker 2>do things and ended up getting me into segregation again.

0:30:51.320 --> 0:30:58.800
<v Speaker 2>So agony, my hell hole for so many years did

0:30:58.840 --> 0:30:59.600
<v Speaker 2>not go away.

0:31:00.400 --> 0:31:04.320
<v Speaker 4>How did you maintain I mean, it's a miracle you

0:31:04.400 --> 0:31:07.360
<v Speaker 4>maintained your physical wellbeing. I mean, the fact that you're

0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:11.320
<v Speaker 4>here is a miracle. How did you maintain your sanity?

0:31:11.360 --> 0:31:14.160
<v Speaker 4>How did you maintain your hope? I mean, because somehow

0:31:14.280 --> 0:31:16.920
<v Speaker 4>or other, you managed to get to this place where

0:31:16.960 --> 0:31:20.480
<v Speaker 4>you are now an exonerated man. Everyone knows you're innocent.

0:31:20.720 --> 0:31:24.239
<v Speaker 4>How do you do that? The scenario your painting is

0:31:24.360 --> 0:31:30.760
<v Speaker 4>so so grim, so terribly dark, and like it's everybody's

0:31:30.760 --> 0:31:31.440
<v Speaker 4>worst nightmare.

0:31:31.520 --> 0:31:35.680
<v Speaker 2>Literally, when I was in there, I was very angry

0:31:35.960 --> 0:31:41.400
<v Speaker 2>and very bitter, and I saw so many individuals doing

0:31:41.400 --> 0:31:43.880
<v Speaker 2>what they were doing to me, doing to other individuals

0:31:44.200 --> 0:31:50.000
<v Speaker 2>for other reasons. Jailhouse prison reasons, whether it dealt with jealousy, drugs,

0:31:50.520 --> 0:31:54.280
<v Speaker 2>or hatred, envy, whatever it was. But the difference was

0:31:54.320 --> 0:31:57.000
<v Speaker 2>that I saw a lot of these individuals that I

0:31:57.080 --> 0:32:00.000
<v Speaker 2>was being told stories about them, or even seeing them

0:32:00.240 --> 0:32:03.400
<v Speaker 2>with my own eyes, how they were turning into other

0:32:03.800 --> 0:32:07.440
<v Speaker 2>beings that they were never to begin with in the

0:32:07.440 --> 0:32:10.240
<v Speaker 2>first place. A lot of them were turning into animals

0:32:10.360 --> 0:32:14.840
<v Speaker 2>or were turning into the darkest, worst criminals that they

0:32:15.080 --> 0:32:18.440
<v Speaker 2>were becoming inside of a prison. And when I saw that,

0:32:19.320 --> 0:32:22.160
<v Speaker 2>I said to myself that, no matter how much I'm

0:32:22.200 --> 0:32:25.640
<v Speaker 2>trying to defend myself and fight for my life in

0:32:25.680 --> 0:32:29.960
<v Speaker 2>prison from two different parties, the CEOs and the inmates,

0:32:31.200 --> 0:32:34.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm not like that. That's not who my parents raised

0:32:34.520 --> 0:32:36.800
<v Speaker 2>me to be, and I don't want to become that.

0:32:37.600 --> 0:32:41.120
<v Speaker 2>And I just had like an awakening and a conscientious

0:32:41.200 --> 0:32:45.040
<v Speaker 2>moment where I thought about my family. I thought about

0:32:45.080 --> 0:32:48.920
<v Speaker 2>those simple words when they tell you I love you,

0:32:49.840 --> 0:32:52.960
<v Speaker 2>we will always love you, we're your family, and we'll

0:32:52.960 --> 0:32:57.360
<v Speaker 2>always be here for you. And those things used to

0:32:57.720 --> 0:33:02.760
<v Speaker 2>bleed tears in my heart, just reminding me of who

0:33:02.800 --> 0:33:04.840
<v Speaker 2>my family was and how did I end up in

0:33:04.880 --> 0:33:08.719
<v Speaker 2>there in the first place. Why was I there, I

0:33:08.800 --> 0:33:11.480
<v Speaker 2>asked God and everybody, and I couldnot get the answer

0:33:12.480 --> 0:33:15.920
<v Speaker 2>for so many years, so I didn't know how to

0:33:15.960 --> 0:33:19.800
<v Speaker 2>deal with that. But because of that moment, I decided,

0:33:19.880 --> 0:33:22.360
<v Speaker 2>you know what, I'm just going to fight in a

0:33:22.400 --> 0:33:24.680
<v Speaker 2>different way, and it's not gonna be with my fist.

0:33:25.840 --> 0:33:28.120
<v Speaker 2>It's not gonna be with my fist because I got

0:33:28.120 --> 0:33:32.000
<v Speaker 2>to focus on my innocence here and I turned into

0:33:32.160 --> 0:33:35.719
<v Speaker 2>education and I did everything that I could, go to

0:33:35.760 --> 0:33:39.000
<v Speaker 2>the law library and write numerous letters to so many

0:33:39.040 --> 0:33:44.520
<v Speaker 2>different law firms and law professors and organizations and even

0:33:44.600 --> 0:33:48.000
<v Speaker 2>clergy asking for all different types of help. And yet

0:33:48.360 --> 0:33:52.080
<v Speaker 2>all of my letters were being rejected or nobody wanted

0:33:52.120 --> 0:33:54.080
<v Speaker 2>to help me because I had no evidence at that

0:33:54.200 --> 0:33:56.640
<v Speaker 2>time to prove my innocence, nor did I have the

0:33:56.760 --> 0:34:03.200
<v Speaker 2>financial resources to hire anybody to help me. And education, yes,

0:34:03.400 --> 0:34:08.560
<v Speaker 2>along with my family support, and yeah, a spiritual awakening

0:34:08.600 --> 0:34:11.680
<v Speaker 2>as well. I mean, anybody in my opinion that would

0:34:11.719 --> 0:34:14.840
<v Speaker 2>say that they never had a spiritual awakening in prison,

0:34:15.120 --> 0:34:17.600
<v Speaker 2>I would say that's a bunch of bs. No matter

0:34:18.040 --> 0:34:21.600
<v Speaker 2>what gangst the role or hardcore role they want to play.

0:34:21.840 --> 0:34:24.920
<v Speaker 2>To anybody and tell them how much of a big

0:34:25.480 --> 0:34:29.320
<v Speaker 2>mato man. They were. When you're locked inside a cell

0:34:29.680 --> 0:34:33.120
<v Speaker 2>and that CEOs turn that key and turn off the lights,

0:34:33.160 --> 0:34:37.240
<v Speaker 2>and you're thereby yourself in four walls in the dark

0:34:37.360 --> 0:34:40.279
<v Speaker 2>and eight x ten cell doing twenty five to life,

0:34:40.680 --> 0:34:45.239
<v Speaker 2>the only person you can turn to is God. So yes,

0:34:45.560 --> 0:34:50.080
<v Speaker 2>I did have that awakening in all those different realms

0:34:50.120 --> 0:34:53.640
<v Speaker 2>of life, and that was the only thing that I

0:34:53.800 --> 0:34:56.520
<v Speaker 2>was hanging on to, the only thing that I was

0:34:56.600 --> 0:34:59.600
<v Speaker 2>clinging on to that kept on giving me that hope

0:34:59.760 --> 0:35:00.400
<v Speaker 2>and faith.

0:35:08.520 --> 0:35:13.839
<v Speaker 4>What happened to eventually unravel this mess? I mean, because

0:35:13.880 --> 0:35:16.960
<v Speaker 4>it's a very difficult thing. Your case was not a

0:35:17.040 --> 0:35:19.319
<v Speaker 4>DNA case. I mean, all the cases are difficult, but

0:35:19.360 --> 0:35:21.560
<v Speaker 4>at least if it was a DNA case where you

0:35:21.640 --> 0:35:25.680
<v Speaker 4>could prove that you weren't there, right, because DNA, we

0:35:25.719 --> 0:35:28.160
<v Speaker 4>know it's science, it's pure science. And in this case,

0:35:29.040 --> 0:35:31.040
<v Speaker 4>you had a higher degree of difficulty even to prove

0:35:31.080 --> 0:35:33.799
<v Speaker 4>it because you weren't convicted based on evidence. So you

0:35:33.800 --> 0:35:35.560
<v Speaker 4>can't prove that the evidence is fault because there was

0:35:35.560 --> 0:35:38.560
<v Speaker 4>no evidence in the first place. So and as you said,

0:35:38.800 --> 0:35:40.960
<v Speaker 4>you weren't a wealthy guy. You couldn't hire a lawyer,

0:35:41.040 --> 0:35:43.520
<v Speaker 4>you couldn't attract a lawyer because they look at the

0:35:43.560 --> 0:35:47.000
<v Speaker 4>case and they go, well, so how did it break.

0:35:47.160 --> 0:35:50.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, my parents and my child did hire an attorney,

0:35:50.560 --> 0:35:53.440
<v Speaker 2>but after that they just can't afford what these attorneys

0:35:53.480 --> 0:35:56.760
<v Speaker 2>wanted to take my case. They wanted to charge anywhere

0:35:56.760 --> 0:36:01.000
<v Speaker 2>over six figures, and my parents basically sold the house

0:36:01.040 --> 0:36:03.960
<v Speaker 2>that we lived in. They closed down the businesses that

0:36:04.000 --> 0:36:06.200
<v Speaker 2>they had to take this money to hire the attorney

0:36:06.640 --> 0:36:10.120
<v Speaker 2>that supposedly was representing me in the beginning, which all

0:36:10.160 --> 0:36:13.240
<v Speaker 2>he did was just railroad me and take my family's money.

0:36:13.360 --> 0:36:15.759
<v Speaker 2>So all these years of my family going to visit

0:36:15.760 --> 0:36:20.160
<v Speaker 2>me in prison, the trips, the tolls, whatever food or

0:36:20.440 --> 0:36:24.760
<v Speaker 2>packages they could bring me, this was a financial stretch

0:36:24.760 --> 0:36:29.960
<v Speaker 2>for them else exactly. And this keep in mind that, yeah,

0:36:30.080 --> 0:36:33.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm innocent. Here there was a victim in my case,

0:36:33.960 --> 0:36:36.760
<v Speaker 2>a victim that did not deserve to die. He should

0:36:36.800 --> 0:36:39.920
<v Speaker 2>have never died. This crime should have never taken the place.

0:36:40.440 --> 0:36:43.640
<v Speaker 2>But the one thing that I can't get over is

0:36:43.680 --> 0:36:48.799
<v Speaker 2>that I don't know how this sounds, but because of

0:36:48.840 --> 0:36:51.839
<v Speaker 2>the actions of someone else, and because of Brian Walkins's death,

0:36:52.160 --> 0:36:56.360
<v Speaker 2>I too became a victim. I became a victim where again,

0:36:56.520 --> 0:36:59.440
<v Speaker 2>there was no evidence. Nobody wanted to help me, nobody

0:36:59.440 --> 0:37:02.480
<v Speaker 2>wanted to believe me. So while I was in the

0:37:02.480 --> 0:37:06.520
<v Speaker 2>theater program, there was a woman that approached me. I

0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:10.480
<v Speaker 2>was casted as Tony for Westside Story and she was

0:37:10.560 --> 0:37:14.480
<v Speaker 2>my music coach, my vocal coach, and she said, you know,

0:37:14.520 --> 0:37:15.880
<v Speaker 2>what are you doing here? You don't look like you

0:37:15.960 --> 0:37:18.640
<v Speaker 2>belong here. And I said, it's a long story. I'll

0:37:18.640 --> 0:37:20.719
<v Speaker 2>tell you another day. And eventually I told her, But

0:37:20.880 --> 0:37:23.959
<v Speaker 2>unbeknownst to me, she winded up contacting a good friend

0:37:23.960 --> 0:37:27.680
<v Speaker 2>of her who was a retired police officer, and he

0:37:27.960 --> 0:37:31.040
<v Speaker 2>told her, I said, this is a job for Bill Hughes.

0:37:31.200 --> 0:37:34.120
<v Speaker 2>And Bill Hughes at the time was working for the

0:37:34.200 --> 0:37:37.160
<v Speaker 2>Journal News up in Westchester County and he was like

0:37:37.320 --> 0:37:42.200
<v Speaker 2>a man that exposed the corruption of judges, ada's and

0:37:42.239 --> 0:37:45.040
<v Speaker 2>police officers. That was his forte. So he decided to

0:37:45.120 --> 0:37:47.239
<v Speaker 2>visit me in one of the shows that I was

0:37:47.239 --> 0:37:50.600
<v Speaker 2>in the theater and he started digging into my case

0:37:51.120 --> 0:37:53.120
<v Speaker 2>and he told me in the beginning, he said, listen,

0:37:53.160 --> 0:37:55.920
<v Speaker 2>because you had no evidence, I didn't really believe you.

0:37:55.960 --> 0:37:57.960
<v Speaker 2>But the more I started digging into your case and

0:37:58.040 --> 0:38:01.560
<v Speaker 2>I saw these flaws and loopoe, it started making me

0:38:01.680 --> 0:38:04.720
<v Speaker 2>more interested. So he wrote an article that was printed

0:38:04.760 --> 0:38:09.280
<v Speaker 2>in City Limits magazine here in Manhattan, in New York City,

0:38:09.480 --> 0:38:13.799
<v Speaker 2>and because of that article, the ex commissioner of the

0:38:13.840 --> 0:38:18.520
<v Speaker 2>New York State Division of Parole, Robert Dennison, decided to

0:38:18.560 --> 0:38:20.640
<v Speaker 2>get involved with him, and between the both of them,

0:38:20.840 --> 0:38:24.760
<v Speaker 2>they just started conducting their own investigation until they found

0:38:24.960 --> 0:38:31.000
<v Speaker 2>evidence with witnesses and letters that actually proved my innocence.

0:38:31.120 --> 0:38:34.240
<v Speaker 2>And that was the reason why New York State judged

0:38:34.280 --> 0:38:35.160
<v Speaker 2>throughout my conviction.

0:38:35.520 --> 0:38:38.320
<v Speaker 4>So they were like your angels pretty much right, yes,

0:38:38.640 --> 0:38:40.839
<v Speaker 4>so in the way your prayers were answered, I suppose.

0:38:40.560 --> 0:38:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Right, yes, they were answered. It took twenty five years.

0:38:45.400 --> 0:38:49.320
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm just glad that I didn't die in there,

0:38:49.480 --> 0:38:55.239
<v Speaker 2>because I can't even tell you how many days I

0:38:55.360 --> 0:38:58.560
<v Speaker 2>used to wake up in the morning and ask myself

0:38:58.600 --> 0:39:01.160
<v Speaker 2>the same question over and over and over, you know,

0:39:01.320 --> 0:39:03.920
<v Speaker 2>is this today? Do I want to live? Or do

0:39:04.000 --> 0:39:07.120
<v Speaker 2>I want to die? And there was a moment when

0:39:07.120 --> 0:39:10.000
<v Speaker 2>I was on my fifteenth year of being incarcerated, all

0:39:10.040 --> 0:39:13.000
<v Speaker 2>my appeals were denied, nobody wanted to help me, and

0:39:13.040 --> 0:39:15.520
<v Speaker 2>I just got down on my knees inside my cell

0:39:15.920 --> 0:39:18.479
<v Speaker 2>and I started crying. Out to God and I told God,

0:39:18.520 --> 0:39:20.920
<v Speaker 2>I said, listen, please take my life away, because I

0:39:20.960 --> 0:39:25.120
<v Speaker 2>can't take this anymore. I can't do this time. I

0:39:25.120 --> 0:39:27.319
<v Speaker 2>didn't do this, you know, I didn't do this, and

0:39:27.680 --> 0:39:30.120
<v Speaker 2>I can't be here. I don't want to do this anymore.

0:39:30.920 --> 0:39:33.839
<v Speaker 2>Who would, I said to him. All I wanted was

0:39:33.920 --> 0:39:37.440
<v Speaker 2>just to wake up the next morning in heaven. I

0:39:37.440 --> 0:39:40.040
<v Speaker 2>didn't have the guts to take my own life. I

0:39:40.080 --> 0:39:42.719
<v Speaker 2>couldn't do the suicide, but I wanted him to do

0:39:42.800 --> 0:39:47.480
<v Speaker 2>it for me. And the next morning, when I woke up,

0:39:47.719 --> 0:39:50.080
<v Speaker 2>I saw those bars in front of me, and I

0:39:50.160 --> 0:39:52.680
<v Speaker 2>was so mad at God. I was so pissed at

0:39:52.760 --> 0:39:55.759
<v Speaker 2>him because I was still there. There was a miraculous

0:39:55.800 --> 0:40:00.080
<v Speaker 2>turn that took place in my life because since then,

0:40:00.160 --> 0:40:02.520
<v Speaker 2>every single door opened up. And that's when Bill Hughes

0:40:02.520 --> 0:40:05.960
<v Speaker 2>and Robert Dennison got involved in my case and everything

0:40:06.080 --> 0:40:09.080
<v Speaker 2>just went perfectly. I really couldn't believe it. It took

0:40:09.280 --> 0:40:12.840
<v Speaker 2>again twenty five years, but everything worked out so smoothly.

0:40:12.920 --> 0:40:14.400
<v Speaker 2>That led to my innocence.

0:40:14.880 --> 0:40:17.440
<v Speaker 4>And I'm glad you brought that up to Johnny, because

0:40:17.800 --> 0:40:21.279
<v Speaker 4>there are people listening who are in a position to

0:40:21.320 --> 0:40:23.759
<v Speaker 4>make a difference like that. To take a call, to

0:40:23.760 --> 0:40:26.640
<v Speaker 4>take a letter, to take a case like yours, and

0:40:27.200 --> 0:40:30.759
<v Speaker 4>while at the outset they all look borderline hopeless. I

0:40:30.760 --> 0:40:32.800
<v Speaker 4>have a saying that pertains to this, which is that

0:40:32.840 --> 0:40:35.400
<v Speaker 4>I've seen too many miracles to stop believing in miracles.

0:40:36.040 --> 0:40:37.759
<v Speaker 4>At the end of the day, it really comes down

0:40:37.800 --> 0:40:42.840
<v Speaker 4>to one person. The impact that any of us can make,

0:40:43.719 --> 0:40:48.560
<v Speaker 4>which these two individuals did in your case, it's really profound.

0:40:48.840 --> 0:40:54.360
<v Speaker 4>I mean, how somebody can come along and really rescue

0:40:55.480 --> 0:40:59.640
<v Speaker 4>somebody like you who needs help as badly as anyone

0:40:59.680 --> 0:41:02.680
<v Speaker 4>can have or need help in this fight. It's hard

0:41:02.719 --> 0:41:06.080
<v Speaker 4>to think of anybody who's more sort of alone and

0:41:06.239 --> 0:41:10.160
<v Speaker 4>more desperately in need of somebody to come along and

0:41:10.200 --> 0:41:13.920
<v Speaker 4>be that angel than somebody who's wrongfully convicted like yourself.

0:41:13.960 --> 0:41:16.120
<v Speaker 4>And there's so many of you out there, right, there's

0:41:16.160 --> 0:41:19.440
<v Speaker 4>so many people who've been wronged by this justice or

0:41:19.480 --> 0:41:22.880
<v Speaker 4>injustice system, whatever you want to call it, that it

0:41:22.960 --> 0:41:26.080
<v Speaker 4>hurts my soul. Now you're here, you ultimately were freed.

0:41:26.160 --> 0:41:28.759
<v Speaker 4>What was that experience? Like this is the flip side now?

0:41:28.840 --> 0:41:29.000
<v Speaker 2>Right?

0:41:29.080 --> 0:41:32.120
<v Speaker 4>So when I mean I as much as you can't

0:41:32.120 --> 0:41:36.480
<v Speaker 4>imagine how the desperation and the misery and the total

0:41:36.920 --> 0:41:39.879
<v Speaker 4>shock of being wrongfully convicted. What's it like when that

0:41:40.120 --> 0:41:41.920
<v Speaker 4>foot finally comes off your neck?

0:41:42.480 --> 0:41:45.360
<v Speaker 2>For me? From my mother, from my family, all the

0:41:45.400 --> 0:41:52.200
<v Speaker 2>reporters there. It was a very warm, yet subtle, loud moment,

0:41:54.000 --> 0:41:58.560
<v Speaker 2>just seeing that embracing taking place after so long, knowing

0:41:58.600 --> 0:42:02.240
<v Speaker 2>that I wasn't going to go back again, and seeing

0:42:02.400 --> 0:42:08.040
<v Speaker 2>the two investigators there, which I finally said to myself,

0:42:08.200 --> 0:42:12.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, like a realization popped in my head. Immediately said.

0:42:12.520 --> 0:42:15.000
<v Speaker 2>The two people that I'm looking up to right now

0:42:15.360 --> 0:42:19.839
<v Speaker 2>is these two investigators, Robert Dennison and Bill Hughes, and

0:42:20.360 --> 0:42:24.719
<v Speaker 2>we need more people like that. When you ask my

0:42:24.840 --> 0:42:31.879
<v Speaker 2>emotions of walking out, I felt valued again. I felt

0:42:31.920 --> 0:42:35.480
<v Speaker 2>like I had worth again as a human being, something

0:42:35.520 --> 0:42:38.080
<v Speaker 2>that was taken away from me from the moment that

0:42:38.120 --> 0:42:42.440
<v Speaker 2>I was incarcerated. You can be rich, you can be intelligent,

0:42:42.840 --> 0:42:45.040
<v Speaker 2>you could be nice and good looking, but if you

0:42:45.080 --> 0:42:48.719
<v Speaker 2>don't have ethics in this world, you're never going to

0:42:48.800 --> 0:42:51.720
<v Speaker 2>do the right thing. All those things are worth nothing,

0:42:52.719 --> 0:42:54.799
<v Speaker 2>and we need people to do the right thing. We

0:42:54.840 --> 0:42:58.320
<v Speaker 2>need people to have these ethics, to have this courage.

0:42:58.520 --> 0:43:02.400
<v Speaker 2>Someone writes a letter like I did, they would want

0:43:02.440 --> 0:43:06.320
<v Speaker 2>to respond, especially when I didn't receive any response and

0:43:06.360 --> 0:43:09.920
<v Speaker 2>people were turning me down. We need these type of people.

0:43:10.400 --> 0:43:13.759
<v Speaker 2>So yes, I felt like I had worth and I

0:43:13.800 --> 0:43:17.080
<v Speaker 2>had value in my life again. Walking out of that courthouse,

0:43:17.760 --> 0:43:22.319
<v Speaker 2>I was so overjoyed that I felt I don't know

0:43:22.360 --> 0:43:26.400
<v Speaker 2>what words or emotions, but I just felt so happy

0:43:26.840 --> 0:43:30.279
<v Speaker 2>that I think that all my worries of dying in

0:43:30.320 --> 0:43:37.040
<v Speaker 2>prison were gone now. But nonetheless being out here and

0:43:37.200 --> 0:43:41.640
<v Speaker 2>speaking constantly, protesting in city Hall and in New York

0:43:41.680 --> 0:43:46.560
<v Speaker 2>State legislature, speaking against false confessions, asking for these cameras

0:43:46.600 --> 0:43:49.279
<v Speaker 2>to be placed in in DC interrogations room, and even

0:43:49.360 --> 0:43:53.680
<v Speaker 2>right now speaking about my story my release in the

0:43:53.719 --> 0:43:58.640
<v Speaker 2>last eighteen months has been extremely hard for me. I

0:43:58.840 --> 0:44:02.439
<v Speaker 2>constantly remind myself of what I went through every time

0:44:02.480 --> 0:44:06.399
<v Speaker 2>I speak about this, and this is not easy. Why

0:44:06.440 --> 0:44:10.320
<v Speaker 2>would an individual like myself that came home after twenty

0:44:10.320 --> 0:44:13.520
<v Speaker 2>five years and there's nothing waiting for him, no job,

0:44:13.960 --> 0:44:16.839
<v Speaker 2>there's nobody saying, okay, we're gonna help you here. Yet

0:44:16.920 --> 0:44:20.560
<v Speaker 2>everybody that is a convicted felon, they have some form

0:44:20.600 --> 0:44:23.359
<v Speaker 2>of transitional re entry process to go to, but there's

0:44:23.400 --> 0:44:26.399
<v Speaker 2>nothing for an innocent individual to go to or nor

0:44:26.520 --> 0:44:31.120
<v Speaker 2>source of help or assistance. This has been extremely crucial

0:44:31.200 --> 0:44:35.359
<v Speaker 2>for me, extremely hard for me, difficult. I've had nightmares

0:44:35.400 --> 0:44:38.959
<v Speaker 2>waking up about prison again, and no matter how hard

0:44:39.000 --> 0:44:42.280
<v Speaker 2>I try to put this behind me, I still haven't

0:44:42.400 --> 0:44:45.280
<v Speaker 2>found that piece, no matter how much love my family

0:44:45.360 --> 0:44:49.279
<v Speaker 2>give me, because they don't know how to guide me

0:44:49.320 --> 0:44:52.360
<v Speaker 2>through this process. They can give me all the hugs,

0:44:52.440 --> 0:44:54.799
<v Speaker 2>kisses and affection in the world, but they don't know

0:44:54.840 --> 0:44:58.120
<v Speaker 2>how to help me. And I don't know how long

0:44:58.239 --> 0:45:00.920
<v Speaker 2>is it gonna take. I don't know how long is

0:45:00.920 --> 0:45:04.200
<v Speaker 2>it going to take? Until you know, I continue fighting

0:45:04.239 --> 0:45:07.120
<v Speaker 2>and fighting and getting more things accomplished with the help

0:45:07.160 --> 0:45:11.080
<v Speaker 2>of the Innos Project and so many other networks of organizations.

0:45:11.400 --> 0:45:14.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't know when I'm going to receive that sigh

0:45:14.040 --> 0:45:17.200
<v Speaker 2>of happiness. But from the moment, you would think that

0:45:17.360 --> 0:45:19.839
<v Speaker 2>freedom is nice. It is nice because I would rather

0:45:19.880 --> 0:45:23.200
<v Speaker 2>be out here than in there. But it's hard. It's

0:45:23.400 --> 0:45:23.960
<v Speaker 2>very hard.

0:45:25.200 --> 0:45:28.040
<v Speaker 4>What are you doing now day to day? Like, aside

0:45:28.040 --> 0:45:33.920
<v Speaker 4>from advocating and working for justice reform, what's your daily life?

0:45:34.040 --> 0:45:34.160
<v Speaker 2>Like?

0:45:34.239 --> 0:45:36.920
<v Speaker 4>You wake up and I was staying.

0:45:36.680 --> 0:45:39.560
<v Speaker 2>With my parents in the beginning, and when I came home,

0:45:39.680 --> 0:45:41.799
<v Speaker 2>you know, while I was in prison, just keep in mind,

0:45:42.080 --> 0:45:44.040
<v Speaker 2>I did everything in my power when I said to

0:45:44.200 --> 0:45:48.120
<v Speaker 2>educate myself. I facilitated classes, went through the theater program,

0:45:48.239 --> 0:45:51.120
<v Speaker 2>and I even got myself a master's degree. I had

0:45:51.320 --> 0:45:54.319
<v Speaker 2>high aspirations when I came home, and I wanted to

0:45:54.320 --> 0:45:57.520
<v Speaker 2>get myself a good job. But nobody really cared with

0:45:57.680 --> 0:46:00.680
<v Speaker 2>all the bias, you know, whether I was innocent or not.

0:46:00.760 --> 0:46:03.840
<v Speaker 2>They just didn't want to formally incarcerated an individual working

0:46:04.120 --> 0:46:07.000
<v Speaker 2>in their working environment. So it was difficult for me

0:46:07.080 --> 0:46:09.920
<v Speaker 2>to find a job, and I winded up gaining employment

0:46:10.040 --> 0:46:14.000
<v Speaker 2>and a bail bond agency doing bails. So look at this, ironically,

0:46:14.239 --> 0:46:17.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to New York City jails every single night

0:46:17.520 --> 0:46:22.320
<v Speaker 2>to bail somebody out, and that has been a turmoil

0:46:22.400 --> 0:46:25.000
<v Speaker 2>in a nightmare as well. That was giving me some

0:46:25.320 --> 0:46:29.400
<v Speaker 2>substance of financial income, but it just wasn't enough. And

0:46:29.480 --> 0:46:32.440
<v Speaker 2>it's how New York City's expensive. Right now. You know,

0:46:32.880 --> 0:46:35.279
<v Speaker 2>I have my own apartment now, the money that I

0:46:35.360 --> 0:46:37.680
<v Speaker 2>saved up, I got an apartment right now. But it's

0:46:37.680 --> 0:46:40.239
<v Speaker 2>still very difficult. And I left that job and I'm

0:46:40.280 --> 0:46:43.279
<v Speaker 2>looking for another job now. You know, again, you would

0:46:43.280 --> 0:46:45.400
<v Speaker 2>think that, you know, there would be some type of

0:46:45.560 --> 0:46:48.359
<v Speaker 2>network organization or a system say Okay, you know what

0:46:48.640 --> 0:46:51.160
<v Speaker 2>you did twenty five years for a crime you didn't commit.

0:46:51.360 --> 0:46:53.760
<v Speaker 2>We're going to help you here get back on your feet.

0:46:54.239 --> 0:46:58.000
<v Speaker 2>That doesn't exist for exoneries. It's just not out there,

0:46:58.440 --> 0:47:00.000
<v Speaker 2>so it even makes it more difficult.

0:47:00.760 --> 0:47:03.560
<v Speaker 4>We'll talk offline about that. I may have some ideas,

0:47:03.840 --> 0:47:07.360
<v Speaker 4>but before we have to sign off, I always like

0:47:07.440 --> 0:47:11.480
<v Speaker 4>to ask the featured guest, honored guest, if there's any

0:47:11.760 --> 0:47:14.560
<v Speaker 4>last thoughts that you want to share with the audience,

0:47:14.640 --> 0:47:17.120
<v Speaker 4>get off your chest, anything at all.

0:47:17.600 --> 0:47:21.200
<v Speaker 2>You know. I would say that if there were cameras

0:47:21.440 --> 0:47:25.200
<v Speaker 2>all over every Prieston in New York, inside every room,

0:47:25.600 --> 0:47:29.880
<v Speaker 2>because that needs to be implemented. Cameras need to be

0:47:30.000 --> 0:47:34.359
<v Speaker 2>placed in every room in the police precinct because it's

0:47:34.360 --> 0:47:36.840
<v Speaker 2>so easy to take someone and put them in another

0:47:36.880 --> 0:47:39.440
<v Speaker 2>room when there's not a camera and still beat them

0:47:39.480 --> 0:47:42.640
<v Speaker 2>up and then bring him into the interrogation when where

0:47:42.640 --> 0:47:45.960
<v Speaker 2>the cameras at so he can make that false confession. So,

0:47:46.040 --> 0:47:50.320
<v Speaker 2>now that we have this law passed, anybody out there listening,

0:47:50.400 --> 0:47:55.000
<v Speaker 2>anybody that wants to help this be prevented and has

0:47:55.040 --> 0:47:58.200
<v Speaker 2>the power to do so, needs to put these politics

0:47:58.280 --> 0:48:01.760
<v Speaker 2>to the side. They need to start thinking about human

0:48:01.840 --> 0:48:05.160
<v Speaker 2>beings lives here, because if that camera was there twenty

0:48:05.200 --> 0:48:08.160
<v Speaker 2>five years ago, I would have never spent twenty five

0:48:08.239 --> 0:48:13.800
<v Speaker 2>years in prison. And don't stop believing, don't stop believing.

0:48:13.920 --> 0:48:15.799
<v Speaker 2>I know there's a lot of people out there that

0:48:16.120 --> 0:48:19.799
<v Speaker 2>are believers or call themselves believers, but I would say this.

0:48:19.920 --> 0:48:24.719
<v Speaker 2>A believer to me is someone that when you know

0:48:24.880 --> 0:48:27.520
<v Speaker 2>nothing is out there, there's no way you can prove

0:48:27.560 --> 0:48:30.600
<v Speaker 2>your innocence, and you write so many letters and you're

0:48:30.640 --> 0:48:34.000
<v Speaker 2>getting all the rejection letters like I was. You know,

0:48:34.080 --> 0:48:37.640
<v Speaker 2>most people would just stop. Most people were just that's sick,

0:48:37.760 --> 0:48:41.200
<v Speaker 2>give up. It takes somebody to wake up morning after

0:48:41.360 --> 0:48:44.920
<v Speaker 2>morning and keep on going at it, to see it

0:48:44.960 --> 0:48:48.359
<v Speaker 2>there when you don't even see it there, and then

0:48:48.480 --> 0:48:52.080
<v Speaker 2>to finally receive your innocence. To me, that's a believer.

0:48:52.600 --> 0:48:54.640
<v Speaker 2>So I just want to share that with everybody, say

0:48:54.680 --> 0:48:57.080
<v Speaker 2>don't stop believing. And that's the believers that we need

0:48:57.120 --> 0:49:00.080
<v Speaker 2>out there in society today to keep on encouraging and

0:49:00.200 --> 0:49:03.920
<v Speaker 2>helping with this cause here of innocent people in prison

0:49:03.920 --> 0:49:07.160
<v Speaker 2>that are still in there and with false confessions.

0:49:08.000 --> 0:49:10.359
<v Speaker 4>I guess it's like I say, you've seen too many

0:49:10.360 --> 0:49:12.680
<v Speaker 4>miracles to stop believing in miracles too, and you are

0:49:12.680 --> 0:49:15.360
<v Speaker 4>a miracle. Last question, are you on any social media?

0:49:15.440 --> 0:49:19.040
<v Speaker 2>You could go on my Facebook page it's Johnny Kopia

0:49:19.280 --> 0:49:25.759
<v Speaker 2>joh n n y hi ncapie and on Instagram on

0:49:26.480 --> 0:49:28.879
<v Speaker 2>Johnnyincopia Dot seventy two.

0:49:29.200 --> 0:49:32.920
<v Speaker 4>Follow him, learn more, get involved. We need your help.

0:49:33.520 --> 0:49:38.360
<v Speaker 4>Let's make sure we minimize the future wrongful convictions.

0:49:44.000 --> 0:49:46.600
<v Speaker 7>Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

0:49:46.640 --> 0:49:47.719
<v Speaker 7>get your podcasts.

0:49:47.800 --> 0:49:48.920
<v Speaker 3>It really helps.

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<v Speaker 7>And I'm a proud donor to the NISNS project and

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<v Speaker 7>I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

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<v Speaker 7>important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

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<v Speaker 7>to Innocence Project to learn how to donate and get involved.

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<v Speaker 7>I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and

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<v Speaker 7>Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three

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<v Speaker 7>time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow

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<v Speaker 7>us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at

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<v Speaker 7>Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a

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<v Speaker 7>production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal

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<v Speaker 7>Company Number one