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Speaker 1: I think we have the best legal system.

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Speaker 2: It's just the people that implement it. They get lost

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Speaker 2: along the way and forget what their job really is.

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Speaker 2: He just kept on trying to remind me that who

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Speaker 2: was in authority, who was in control, and how easy

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Speaker 2: it was for my body to be found in any

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Speaker 2: alley of New York City.

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Speaker 3: It's a tough prison when you have the guards going

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Speaker 3: against you because they are the biggest gang in the prison.

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Speaker 2: They do that. They'll give a guy a life sentence

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Speaker 2: and go home in eat spaghetti like it was nothing.

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Speaker 2: And anybody that said, well, why would you confess to

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Speaker 2: something that you didn't do? My question to them will

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Speaker 2: be why wouldn't you confess when somebody's threatening to kill

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Speaker 2: your life?

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Speaker 4: The judge, he said, how you feel?

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Speaker 2: I said, I'm okay. He said, well, the days you're

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Speaker 2: lucky day you're going home.

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Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 4: Jason Flamm. Today, I have a very special guest, a

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Speaker 4: fellow New Yorker and someone who was wrongfully convicted of

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Speaker 4: one of the most notorious crimes in the history of

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Speaker 4: New York, Johnny Incapier.

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Speaker 1: It was nineteen ninety one of the bloodiest years in

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Speaker 1: city history. The brutal murder of tourists Brian Watkins, killed

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Speaker 1: in the subway while defending his family from a pack

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Speaker 1: of teens, shook the city to its core.

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Speaker 5: Tourist Brian Watkins was in the subway on September third,

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Speaker 5: nineteen ninety when he was stabbed in the chest after

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Speaker 5: a struggle with at least six teenagers.

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Speaker 1: If you lived in New York back then, you'd probably

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Speaker 1: remember what it was like. The murder rate was astonishingly hi,

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Speaker 1: the police force a lot smaller than it is now,

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Speaker 1: and the long term solutions for those were just beginning

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Speaker 1: to come into play.

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Speaker 3: People, though, were out of patience. A high profile crime

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Speaker 3: like this required quick action. Within twenty four hours, seventeens,

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Speaker 3: including of an eighteen year old Hincapier, confessed on tape

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Speaker 3: to taking part in the robbery. Hincapier would later say

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Speaker 3: that his confession was coerced by an abusive detective.

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Speaker 6: He says it was a combination of fear, false promises,

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Speaker 6: and youthful ignorance that led him to confess to a

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Speaker 6: crime that he did not commit.

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Speaker 5: He was convicted in nineteen ninety one. Three witnesses came

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Speaker 5: forward to say Hincapier was not on the subway platform

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Speaker 5: when the stabbing happened.

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Speaker 2: Conviction overturned.

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Speaker 6: Johnny Encopier is out of prison after serving twenty five

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Speaker 6: years in one of the city's most notorious murder cases.

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Speaker 5: Johnny Hincapier paid his one dollar bail and ran into

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Speaker 5: the arms of his parents.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, Thank you, Jason, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 4: So Johnny, let's go back. This is over twenty five

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Speaker 4: years ago.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be twenty seven in September.

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Speaker 4: Right, and you were in high school, correct, living in Queens. Yes,

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Speaker 4: that was life back then.

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Speaker 2: Life was beautiful for an immigrant family from Columbia, South America.

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Speaker 2: First saw being raised in Florida, then coming to New

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Speaker 2: York and being in a neighborhood like Bay Terrace, Queens.

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Speaker 2: For anybody that knows about that section of Queens back

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Speaker 2: in the eighties, especially when I was there, it was

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Speaker 2: predominantly all Jewish, Italian and Irish. It's a residential neighborhood.

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Speaker 2: You know, you're away from any type of problems in

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Speaker 2: any of the places in New York City, which the

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Speaker 2: crime rate was extremely high back then. So growing up

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Speaker 2: was definitely comfortable around a good group of friends and

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Speaker 2: family members.

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Speaker 4: Right and then one night, one horrible night, everything changed

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Speaker 4: in the worst possible way. There was a lot of

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Speaker 4: crime in New York City back then. Back then there

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Speaker 4: was borderline hysteria in terms of the fear that which

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Speaker 4: the media was really hyping up because it wasn't Mad Max,

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Speaker 4: but it was. You know, you had to be careful.

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Speaker 4: And a terrible, terrible crime occurred. A family from Utah

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Speaker 4: was visiting, took the train. They decided to take the

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Speaker 4: subway to the US Open to go see the tennis.

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Speaker 4: Can you take us through what happened and what you

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Speaker 4: were doing and how you came to be implicated wrongfully

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Speaker 4: in this terrible scenario.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, growing up in New York, like you, said Jason,

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Speaker 2: talking about a time in the eighties where breakdancing had

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Speaker 2: came out and with rap music, freestyle and house music,

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Speaker 2: which was like the hit type of music other than

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Speaker 2: pop music to listen to in the eighties, at least

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Speaker 2: in New York. But I grew up after being a dancer.

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Speaker 2: I went into becoming a DJ. As a teenager, I

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Speaker 2: went to my first club for teens and that kind

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Speaker 2: of opened up the door for me to work on

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Speaker 2: weekends at other clubs that were promoting teen nights, and

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Speaker 2: eventually I ended up working in another major clubs when

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Speaker 2: I got older, and even started on a minor level

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Speaker 2: promoting with other individuals those clubs. So I was a

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Speaker 2: pretty decent minor or pre popular type of guy amongst

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Speaker 2: the group of people that knew me. Back in September

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Speaker 2: of nineteen ninety, a good popular DJs was having a

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Speaker 2: birthday party that he was throwing at Roseline, and everybody

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Speaker 2: in New York City made plans to go out that night.

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Speaker 2: So the group of individuals that I had met along

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Speaker 2: the years and clubs and other parties invited me to

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Speaker 2: go out because they haven't seen me for a while,

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Speaker 2: And eventually they had friends that they invited, and their

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Speaker 2: friends invited other friends. So it was a lot of

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Speaker 2: people that didn't know each other that went out. But

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Speaker 2: there was a small fraction of individuals that didn't quite

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Speaker 2: have enough money to get inside the nightclub, so they

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Speaker 2: decided to commit a crime, and in the process of

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Speaker 2: committing that crime, someone died.

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Speaker 4: Some of these kids because you were kids, I mean,

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Speaker 4: you were still in high school at the time, went

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Speaker 4: down thinking I'm going to rob somebody and get some

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Speaker 4: money so I can go to the club. So they

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Speaker 4: went into the subway. That's when they encountered this family

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Speaker 4: from Utah and these were Hispanic kids, right, and the

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Speaker 4: family Hispanic and black kids.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 4: This of course prayed on all the fears that were

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Speaker 4: in the media and the classic stereotypes of the time,

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Speaker 4: which unfortunately still persisted this day. But at that time

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Speaker 4: they were really peaking. And let's face the crime sales

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Speaker 4: newspapers too, so it was on the front page. I

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Speaker 4: remember the news and this case was on the front

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Speaker 4: page for a long time.

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Speaker 2: Yes, what it was to do was.

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Speaker 4: Major, bold faced headlines. What happened when they went down

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Speaker 4: to rob this family? Where were you and why did

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Speaker 4: they pick on you?

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Speaker 2: When I got out of the train station, I made

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Speaker 2: literally plans with one friend of mine that night. I

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Speaker 2: had my wallet and I gave it to a friend

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Speaker 2: of mine to hold for me because he was wearing

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Speaker 2: a Fannie pack. So apparently when we got outside to

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Speaker 2: the street, I didn't see him and ask people, you know,

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Speaker 2: basically where he was, and some individuals indicated that he

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Speaker 2: never came out of the train station. Saw on my

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Speaker 2: way going back inside the train station, I saw another

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Speaker 2: friend and we were talking, and at that moment when

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Speaker 2: I got there, he was flirting with some girls and

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Speaker 2: I asked him and he told me that he thought

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Speaker 2: that he was out of the platform. So I was

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Speaker 2: gonna go back upstairs, but I said, you know what,

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Speaker 2: let me check and let me go downstairs. And I

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Speaker 2: started going down the escalators, but I heard like a

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Speaker 2: big commotion of people screaming and saw people coming running

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Speaker 2: up towards the escalators towards me. So I never made

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Speaker 2: it downstairs to the platform, and I turned around with

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Speaker 2: everybody that was coming towards me, and I just went

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Speaker 2: out to the street. I decided to go to Roseland

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Speaker 2: and I got online where I saw other people that

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Speaker 2: I knew, and maybe like a couple of minutes later,

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Speaker 2: the group of individuals that was downstairs in the subway

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Speaker 2: platform that committed the crime came then and we all

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Speaker 2: went inside of Rosan after an individual decided to volunteer

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Speaker 2: to buy tickets for everyone. But at the end of

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Speaker 2: the day, with the news was reporting that these group

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Speaker 2: of individuals that I told you about that stood back

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Speaker 2: in the platform is that they didn't have enough money

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Speaker 2: to go inside a roseland and they decided to rob

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Speaker 2: a family, which they did not know. They were tourists.

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Speaker 2: They were visiting New York, they were planning to go

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Speaker 2: see the tennis tournament, and in the process of that

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Speaker 2: young twenty two year old man with the name of

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Speaker 2: Brian Watkins died behind a minor stab wound towards the

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Speaker 2: art of his heart.

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Speaker 4: Well, there was more to it than that as well, right,

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Speaker 4: because it started as a robbery, and as these things do,

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Speaker 4: it progressed from there, right because I think the kids

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Speaker 4: they attacked the mother, if I remember correctly, and then

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Speaker 4: the son, which was what really brought everybody's focus to

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Speaker 4: this case, because the son was sort of a heroic kid.

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Speaker 4: Brian Watkins was twenty two at the time, and he

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Speaker 4: came to the aid of his mother and he tried

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Speaker 4: to fight back and protect her from these predators. And

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Speaker 4: then one of them stabbed him and they ran out

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Speaker 4: of the subway, and he ran after them and collapsed

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Speaker 4: on the stairs and die like in a movie. Right,

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Speaker 4: just a horrible, horrible thing. And you know, I guess

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Speaker 4: it really triggered again everyone's emotions, especially because everyone would

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Speaker 4: hope that they would behave the way that this kid

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Speaker 4: did in trying to defend his family and his mother.

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Speaker 4: So it was just a real flashpoint. And we know

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Speaker 4: in these cases when that kind of stuff happens and

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Speaker 4: there's a lot of media attention, the cops they play

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Speaker 4: a little loose with the rules a lot of times. Right,

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Speaker 4: they become hyper focused on solving the crime. There may

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Speaker 4: be accolades for them, right if they do. There may

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Speaker 4: be promotions involved in any case. At a minimum, it'll

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Speaker 4: take away the pressure that they're feeling from their bosses

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Speaker 4: when when they get this case resolved. And in this case,

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Speaker 4: they knew they had a group of kids. It's got

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Speaker 4: to be tricky to solve a case like that. It's

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Speaker 4: hard enough to identify one individual in a single perpetrator crime,

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Speaker 4: but here you have a whole group of kids. So

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Speaker 4: you happen to have the misfortune, the terrible misfortune of

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Speaker 4: being inside the club with the kids who actually committed

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Speaker 4: this crime. But did you know at that time that

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Speaker 4: they had committed the crime?

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Speaker 2: No, not at all. No one had mentioned anything about

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Speaker 2: it before nor after the fact. And I got caught

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Speaker 2: up with it only because one of the individuals that

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Speaker 2: did commit the crime I knew from going to school

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Speaker 2: with him, and he was one of the individuals that

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Speaker 2: I hadn't seen in such a long time invited me

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Speaker 2: to go out that night, and because he knew my

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Speaker 2: phone number. When the detectives asked him the list of

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Speaker 2: individuals or the names of individuals that they wanted from

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Speaker 2: him that went out to the colt, they never asked

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Speaker 2: him that participated in the crime with him, that committed

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Speaker 2: the crime, but they went out with him that night.

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Speaker 2: He listed me and a few other individuals that he

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Speaker 2: knew their phone numbers, and that's how they came to

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Speaker 2: my house and dragged me out and took me to

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Speaker 2: the precinct.

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Speaker 4: So you got dragged out? You were just home with

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Speaker 4: your parents? Was it daytime? Nighttime? What was the scenario?

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Speaker 2: It was already evening and I was at home and

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Speaker 2: the detectives came into my house after they rang the

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Speaker 2: bell and my mother opened the door and they just

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Speaker 2: barged in and they asked my mother if I was home,

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Speaker 2: and my mother was inquiring why did they were asking

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Speaker 2: about me? And they said that they wanted to ask

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Speaker 2: me questions about a stolen car. So she called me

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Speaker 2: and I came downstairs. They said they wanted to take

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Speaker 2: me to the precinct, and my mother wanted to come along.

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Speaker 2: And they asked my mother how old I was, and

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Speaker 2: she said that I just turned eighteen, and they said

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Speaker 2: there was no need for that, and she kept on

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Speaker 2: inquiring why and the until they finally confessed that they

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Speaker 2: wanted to question me about a homicide that took place

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Speaker 2: in the subway station. And thereafter they just took me

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Speaker 2: outside and placed me in their police car.

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Speaker 4: And so she didn't go with you.

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Speaker 2: No, they told her that she couldn't come. She even

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Speaker 2: attempted to call an attorney, but it was a holiday,

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Speaker 2: was labor days, so she wasn't able to get in

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Speaker 2: contact with anybody. And they took me all by myself

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Speaker 2: and the car with the rest of the detectives that

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Speaker 2: were outside and even another car that was escorting them

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Speaker 2: from a precinct from my neighborhood into Manhattan's North Precinct.

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Speaker 4: So you got to take it all the way across

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Speaker 4: the bridge into this city, and then you end up

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Speaker 4: in the North Precinct and then the town North to

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Speaker 4: be exactly and did they begin interrogating you immediately or

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Speaker 4: did they keep you on the holding cell? What happened?

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Speaker 2: Well, when I got there, the detectives handcuffed me as

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Speaker 2: soon as I came out of the car, and one

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Speaker 2: of the detectives told me that there was a lot

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Speaker 2: of media outside the precinct, so he said that it

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Speaker 2: was in my best interest that he wanted to cover

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Speaker 2: my face with his coat and handcuffed me. He did

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Speaker 2: that exactly. He took me inside. I couldn't see any

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Speaker 2: of the media. I just heard the cameras flashing and

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Speaker 2: people yelling things out, like asking questions or who was

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Speaker 2: I Who was it that the detectives were bringing in.

255
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Speaker 2: And they brought me inside and they were still guiding

256
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Speaker 2: me until they got me. It was for them a

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Speaker 2: secure place that the media wasn't able to see me

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Speaker 2: in a corridor of the precinct. And then they took

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Speaker 2: me upstairs to a room where I saw it was

260
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Speaker 2: a double bunks beds and there was the detectives in

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Speaker 2: a T shirt laying down smoking a cigarette, and they

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Speaker 2: uncuffed me and they some word that he wanted me

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Speaker 2: to be placed, and he said place him in the

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Speaker 2: back of the room where the tables at in the chair.

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Speaker 4: And then they began interrogating you soon after that.

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Speaker 2: Well interesting enough in my case, I came to find

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Speaker 2: this out much later. The lead detective in my case

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Speaker 2: was Detective Carlos Gonzalez, the same detective that was in

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Speaker 2: the investigation of the Central Park five and he had

270
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Speaker 2: just been transferred a little less than a year to

271
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Speaker 2: Midtown North. So the detective that was in the room,

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Speaker 2: he was discussing with Carlos Gonzalez. I don't know what,

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Speaker 2: but throughout the whole entire interrogation, he kept on walking

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Speaker 2: in and out of the room to just talk with

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Speaker 2: Detective Gonzales. And when I was left alone in that

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Speaker 2: room with Detective Casey, who was the detective that interrogated me,

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Speaker 2: keep in mind that I'm still handcuffed in the chair.

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Speaker 2: And when I was handcuffed, the detective asked me what

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Speaker 2: happened that night, and I told him the truth. I

280
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Speaker 2: told him exactly what I did from the moment I

281
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Speaker 2: left to my house to go to Roseland and immediately,

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Speaker 2: you know, he didn't believe me. He kept on saying

283
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Speaker 2: that he didn't believe me. He kept on calling me

284
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Speaker 2: a liar throughout this whole process until he went and

285
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Speaker 2: bursted into a big rage and started blowing smoking my

286
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Speaker 2: face from the cigarette that he was smoking. He just

287
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Speaker 2: decided to really get belligerent with me until he finally

288
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,320
Speaker 2: started to beat me up. And when he beat me up,

289
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Speaker 2: I was crying. There was like a moment of silence.

290
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Speaker 2: There was a long pause, and he basically told me

291
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Speaker 2: that I was never going to make it out alive

292
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Speaker 2: from that precinct unless I decided to comply with him

293
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,640
Speaker 2: in memorizing a story Jesus Christ. He just kept on

294
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,440
Speaker 2: trying to remind me that who was in authority, who

295
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,720
Speaker 2: was in control, and how easy it was for my

296
00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,000
Speaker 2: body to be found in any alley of New York

297
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Speaker 2: City and nobody would care about it, because the police

298
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Speaker 2: department in New York who he worked for, had it

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Speaker 2: that simple in their power to do such a thing,

300
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Speaker 2: and nobody would even point a finger to.

301
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Speaker 4: Them, like a Central American dictatorship or something. This is

302
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Speaker 4: supposed to be New York City, which is located in America,

303
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Speaker 4: the United States, exactly. Yeah, that's supposed to be the

304
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Speaker 4: way it is, obviously. I mean, so this is an

305
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Speaker 4: unbelievably terrifying situation to find yourself and you're eighteen years old.

306
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Speaker 4: We know that the brain doesn't fully develop until you're

307
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Speaker 4: about twenty five, and we know that these confessions, these

308
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Speaker 4: false confessions, happen so frequently with teenagers because you don't

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Speaker 4: have enough life experience at that point to be able

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Speaker 4: to draw on, to be able to rationalize and say, well,

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Speaker 4: he can't really take me and kill me and dump

312
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Speaker 4: my body, because the rational mind would say, well, that

313
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Speaker 4: can't happen because my mom saw them come and take me.

314
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Speaker 4: But then again, who knows how you would react. Anybody

315
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Speaker 4: in that situation would be in a state of complete disorientation,

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Speaker 4: which is exactly what they were after.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 4: They were well aware that you couldn't withstand as a

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Speaker 4: teenage boy with no experience probably with this type of

320
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Speaker 4: violence or mental pressure, psychological pressure. They knew that they

321
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Speaker 4: were going to be able to get you to say

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Speaker 4: almost anything if they took these tactics. And what happened.

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Speaker 4: Did they give you a piece of paper to sign?

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Speaker 4: Is that what the next thing was? And how I mean,

325
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Speaker 4: how long we were in there? At what point did you

326
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Speaker 4: get a lawyer? Did they ever ask you if you

327
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Speaker 4: wanted a lawyer.

328
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Speaker 2: Well, let me just say this, Jason, before I get

329
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Speaker 2: to answering that part of your question. Everything that you

330
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Speaker 2: just said is absolutely true. You hit it right on

331
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Speaker 2: the head. New York had a technique that they call

332
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Speaker 2: the read technique where detectives basically questioned an individual to

333
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Speaker 2: find out whether he's telling the truth or he's lying,

334
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,760
Speaker 2: and if they believe that he's lying, then they start

335
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,440
Speaker 2: asking him questions as he's guilty, just to make him

336
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,000
Speaker 2: to confess because they don't believe. In my case, they

337
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,119
Speaker 2: didn't do any of that. This detective here, from the beginning,

338
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,960
Speaker 2: he just said that I was lying and then transition

339
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,720
Speaker 2: into beating me up, which he wasn't supposed to do

340
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,840
Speaker 2: yet he violated that. Now when I say that he

341
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,480
Speaker 2: was threatening to take my life, yeah, that's absolutely true.

342
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Speaker 2: A teenager like myself at that time, at that age,

343
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Speaker 2: eighteen years old, Yeah, my mind wasn't fully developed, right,

344
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Speaker 2: But I truly believe that any individual who has been

345
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Speaker 2: threatened with their lives being taken, I don't care how

346
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,200
Speaker 2: old you are, right, is scared for their life. That

347
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,280
Speaker 2: those individuals that are physically pounding on you are going

348
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Speaker 2: to kill you because they say that's exactly what they're

349
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Speaker 2: going to do, whether you're eighteen or fifty. And anybody

350
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,720
Speaker 2: that would say, well, why would you confess to something

351
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Speaker 2: that you didn't do, my question to them will be

352
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Speaker 2: why wouldn't you confess? It's exactly to what I just

353
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,360
Speaker 2: mentioned when somebody's threatening to kill your life.

354
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Speaker 4: And not only that, but you add to it the

355
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Speaker 4: fact that I imagine you grew up like I grew up,

356
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Speaker 4: thinking that the police were there to protect you, right,

357
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,879
Speaker 4: and you respect the police right, and they respect you,

358
00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:05,679
Speaker 4: and you know it says right on the side of

359
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,400
Speaker 4: the car, to protect and serve right. And I think

360
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,480
Speaker 4: most police that is the approach that they take. But

361
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,439
Speaker 4: then there's bad ones, and the bad ones like this

362
00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:17,439
Speaker 4: guy Gonzalez, who we know was responsible for extracting the

363
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,119
Speaker 4: false confessions in the Central Park Geogra case, the notorious

364
00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,080
Speaker 4: Central Park Jogra case. He's one of those guys who

365
00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,560
Speaker 4: obviously just didn't give a fuck. It's really hard for

366
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Speaker 4: us who are what do you want to call it,

367
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:34,199
Speaker 4: empathetic human beings. It's hard for us to really imagine

368
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,080
Speaker 4: what could cause somebody to go so far wrong to

369
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,400
Speaker 4: take somebody. They had no idea, they had no evidence.

370
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,960
Speaker 4: There was no evidence with you. There's nothing connecting you

371
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,520
Speaker 4: to this case. There wasn't even anybody at this point

372
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,439
Speaker 4: saying that you did it. I don't believe there was

373
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,200
Speaker 4: just this guy who said, I know this guy Johnny

374
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,320
Speaker 4: and Gtpia, I have his phone number in my phone

375
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,000
Speaker 4: whatever and not my phone right.

376
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Speaker 2: Yeah, But by the time they took me to Precinct,

377
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,400
Speaker 2: they already had the fashion of the individual that stabbed

378
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,800
Speaker 2: Brian Watkins and killed him, so they knew who had

379
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,680
Speaker 2: killed him. But, like you said, aside from being over

380
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,840
Speaker 2: zealous or any other elements that you want to include,

381
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:16,359
Speaker 2: from racism and just being biased and whatsoever, this detective

382
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 2: just wanted to move up the ladder and didn't care

383
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:21,879
Speaker 2: for him whether I was telling the truth or not.

384
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,840
Speaker 2: He just wanted to tag me along with everybody else,

385
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,080
Speaker 2: only because one individual knew me.

386
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 4: Right, knew you. But to your knowledge at that point

387
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,439
Speaker 4: in time, had any of the other individuals implicated you

388
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,160
Speaker 4: in the crime. No, So that's just such a random

389
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,240
Speaker 4: and terrible twist of fate that they just decided because

390
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:41,679
Speaker 4: at some point somebody had to say, well, let's go

391
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,199
Speaker 4: pick him up. Well, well, let's not go pick that

392
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,720
Speaker 4: guy up. He we don't know anything about him. We

393
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:47,440
Speaker 4: go pick him up for it doesn't make any sense.

394
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 4: So from that to beating this false confession out of you,

395
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,240
Speaker 4: literally beating it out of you, and we know, literally

396
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,280
Speaker 4: beating it into me, right, beating it into you, threatening

397
00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,359
Speaker 4: you with death. Now all of a sudden, you're in

398
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 4: the system, you've confessed, You're not going home, you're not

399
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 4: going anywhere. You're going to trial. And that trial was

400
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,919
Speaker 4: a circus, let's face it, right, I mean, this was

401
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,920
Speaker 4: the biggest news in New York. And you were tried

402
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 4: with some of the other kids together, right.

403
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,880
Speaker 2: Yes, there was two trials and I was tried in

404
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 2: the first trial. Interesting before I was taken to the

405
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,359
Speaker 2: priest and there was one individual that participated in the

406
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,199
Speaker 2: crime and made a confession and said to them that

407
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,040
Speaker 2: I wasn't even there. So everybody that he knew that

408
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 2: participated in the crime, he mentioned that. He said six

409
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,479
Speaker 2: people committed the crime, not and two people left. And

410
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,760
Speaker 2: those two people that left that went out with everybody

411
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,200
Speaker 2: else that got to that train station was Johnny and Kevin.

412
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,840
Speaker 2: So Johnny and Kevin had left. You had the district attorney.

413
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 2: The ADA kept on trying to implicate me, and this

414
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 2: individual kept on correcting the ADA, and he said, no,

415
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:57,879
Speaker 2: Johnny was not there. It was only six of us,

416
00:20:57,960 --> 00:20:59,600
Speaker 2: not eight of us. They did it about practicing me

417
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:05,159
Speaker 2: around six times, and this individual was separated from trial

418
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 2: then placed in the second trial because the ADA and

419
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 2: the judge decided that they didn't want the jury to

420
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 2: hear my exportory information from him to them, so they

421
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,239
Speaker 2: kept them away from me so the jury couldn't hear this.

422
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,919
Speaker 2: And they tried me along with other individuals. Where a

423
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 2: jury looking at a group of guys say, you know,

424
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 2: everybody's guilty.

425
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 4: Right, because the jury, the psychology of a jury would

426
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,360
Speaker 4: seem to be that if there's four of you together

427
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 4: and the other three guys, were the other three guys

428
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 4: all guilty, guys, yeah on your side, right, So there

429
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,360
Speaker 4: was there was three in you, so you're guilty by association, literally,

430
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 4: and the idea that they're going well justice, Most people

431
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,200
Speaker 4: think going into the jury box, the justice system works.

432
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 4: If they got these guys here, they must be the guys.

433
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 4: This is a terrible crime. Everybody can relate to this.

434
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:58,200
Speaker 4: Poor families ordeal. You're there must be a reason, right,

435
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 4: must be a reason. So you are ultimately convicted and

436
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 4: sentenced to twenty five.

437
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 2: Years to life only due to a false confession, like

438
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 2: you said, no weapon, no knowledge, no malice, harbored, no identification,

439
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,200
Speaker 2: no DNA, nothing but a false confession.

440
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 4: Not one witness placed you at the scene, no one,

441
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,880
Speaker 4: not the family, no one, nobody.

442
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 2: Amazing false confession and sentenced to the same exact sentence

443
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 2: that everyone else in my case received, including the individual

444
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 2: that killed the victim in this case.

445
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,640
Speaker 4: So you know, I'm getting the chills now thinking about this,

446
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 4: and now you're here to share the truth that these

447
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 4: false confessions are a plague that we have in our

448
00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 4: justice system, and you know, we're making great progress in

449
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 4: terms of New York State just passed finally mandatory videotaping

450
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:06,360
Speaker 4: of interrogations.

451
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 2: Kushell was a part of Proud to say.

452
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 4: I know you were, and I'm glad you mentioned that,

453
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 4: because nobody could deny you the right to do anything

454
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 4: that you want after what you've been through, But instead

455
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 4: you and almost every other wrongfully convicted person I know,

456
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,360
Speaker 4: spends a huge amount of your time and energy fighting

457
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 4: to prevent future wrongful convictions for people that you don't

458
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 4: even know, right, It's an amazing thing how you're able

459
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 4: to channel that impossibly horrible experience into something so positive.

460
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 4: And yeah, so my hat's off to you for helping

461
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,679
Speaker 4: with that effort, because just that simple change is going

462
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 4: to make such a big difference. Do you think if

463
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 4: your interrogation had been videotaped, is there any possibility of

464
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 4: a jury could convict you?

465
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 2: Absolutely not.

466
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,439
Speaker 4: Like, let's imagine this. Let's imagine that prosecutor goes up

467
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 4: in the courtroom and is playing the video and here, oh,

468
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 4: what did he hit him with? There? Was that a

469
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 4: left or a right?

470
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 2: Right?

471
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 4: Oh, he's handcuffed a chair. Oh now he's just threatened

472
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 4: to kill him. And the jury's gonna go, wait, what

473
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,120
Speaker 4: you can't do that. Everybody knows you can't do that,

474
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 4: And of course you would confess. When I interviewed Raymond

475
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 4: Santana on the show, and he explained, you know, going

476
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 4: through a scenario different than yours, but similar. His was

477
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 4: more psychological torture than anything else. But he was fourteen

478
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 4: and his interrogation went on, I mean, with no sleep

479
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 4: and no food and no nothing, and just for a long,

480
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 4: long time, and they did threaten to kill him. I

481
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 4: said to him, by the end of it, you would

482
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 4: have confessed to kidnapping the Lindbergh baby. He says, absolutely

483
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 4: anything to make it stop, right, And I imagine that's

484
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 4: probably true for you too.

485
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 2: You know. And that's interesting that you say that, because

486
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 2: it only goes to show how powerful these techniques and

487
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 2: tactics are when used in getting someone to make a

488
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 2: false confession. Because most false confessions they have individuals there

489
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 2: anywhere from five to ten to fifteen hours. With me,

490
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 2: that wasn't even the case. I was there for four hours,

491
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 2: and in those four hours I confessed immediately because they

492
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 2: put their hands on me. This detective Casey physically beat

493
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 2: me up. I was just eighteen for three months, no

494
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 2: trouble with the law, had no criminal record whatsoever. This

495
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 2: is my first time inside a police precinct and, like

496
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 2: you said, looking up to police officers, being taught and

497
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 2: raised by my parents to trust in them when anything

498
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 2: goes wrong, if you had any questions, you stop a

499
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: police officer in the middle of the street and ask

500
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 2: him for help. And yet inside this precinct, I'm being

501
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 2: beat up and threatened to die, of course exactly.

502
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 4: You weren't a thug, you weren't a street kid, you

503
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 4: weren't even a fighter. You're an artistic guy, right, You're

504
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 4: a guy who was doing music. I know you got

505
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 4: into theater and dancing and things like that. My mind

506
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 4: is exploding just thinking about what you were going through.

507
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 4: And it's so.

508
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 2: And let me just give you a little interesting fact.

509
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 2: If you would have saw a picture of me, like

510
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: a week before or a couple of days before I

511
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 2: was taken into that precinct, and then you look at

512
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 2: the video tape confession. I had long hair back then,

513
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 2: not very long, but long that I was growing, and

514
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 2: it was pushed back, and on the side of my

515
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 2: head you saw two ball spots from the way that

516
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 2: the detective was pulling my hair out. And you would

517
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 2: think that showing this video tape confession to a jury,

518
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: they would see the truth and how this detective beat

519
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 2: me up. But back then, nobody did not know anything

520
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,360
Speaker 2: about false confessions. So introducing a confession to a jury,

521
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 2: they're believing it immediately and disregarding the physical abuse and

522
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 2: signs on my head of what took place.

523
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 4: Did your lawyer bring that up? Of course, he did,

524
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 4: so you had a competent attorney.

525
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't say competent, but he brought it up

526
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 2: to a minimal factor, you know, because he was really

527
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 2: arguing another issue in my case more than this, because

528
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 2: he believed that, no matter how much I wanted to

529
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 2: take the stand, because I was eighteen and experience, that

530
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: the DA having this false confession was going to walk

531
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 2: all over me on that stand and prove to the

532
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 2: jury that that confession was to be taken to its veracity.

533
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 4: It probably would have to. I mean, I don't think

534
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 4: there was any good answer to that situation. I think

535
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 4: you were doomed before you walked into that courtroom. So

536
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 4: you end up being convicted and sentenced to twenty five

537
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 4: years to life. And what prison did they take you

538
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:45,360
Speaker 4: to at that point.

539
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: Well, after I left Rikers Island, which, let me just say,

540
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: Rykers Island back then was atrocious. It was a hell hole.

541
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: I literally literally went through hell every single day in

542
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: Rikers Island. From the moment that I got there, I

543
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 2: was told that if I wanted to stay alive, I

544
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 2: had it to fight. And the thing about it is

545
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: that the first people that were attacking me in Rikers

546
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 2: Island was the very CEOs, the very correction officers. So

547
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 2: to fight a correction officer that has the power and

548
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 2: already going through this transition of being beat up by

549
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 2: a detective from the police department, I was afraid to

550
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 2: fight back. I didn't know how to fight back.

551
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 4: What are you supposed to do? I'm going to fight

552
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 4: a correction officer that doesn't even make any sense. And

553
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 4: you're not I mean you're not a small guy. You're

554
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 4: not a big guy either. I mean you're not like.

555
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 2: Back then, I weighed one hundred and fifty.

556
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 4: Pounds exactly right. So what'd you do?

557
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 2: I just took the beating. I took the beating. I

558
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 2: cried all night behind it, and every single day I

559
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 2: was harassed by correction officers no matter where I went

560
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: because of the notoriety of my case, and it was

561
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: all over the news for so long, and correction officers

562
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 2: just kept on bringing it up against me until it

563
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,959
Speaker 2: got to the point where they got other inmates and

564
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: Rikers Onland to attack me. And that's where I decided

565
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 2: to put my hands up and fight back to the

566
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 2: best of my ability. But at the end of the day,

567
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 2: that placed there you know, a lot of people they

568
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 2: were fighting with razors and knives, and I didn't know

569
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: how to hold one, and I was afraid to even

570
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: use one. So when they used to pull out their

571
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 2: knives and their raisers, I used to just comply and

572
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: tell them, what do you want? What are you asking

573
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: here for? Or if they were slapping me or kicking me,

574
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 2: or I just took it. I didn't want no cuts

575
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 2: in my face. I didn't want to be stabbed. I

576
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 2: was afraid. I was alone. I was eighteen, and I

577
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 2: didn't know how to deal with it. So I dealt

578
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 2: with with all the fear in the world that I

579
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 2: was going through. And until I went upstate to the

580
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 2: state prison, it was the same treatment because although the

581
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 2: notoriety wasn't the same, but you know, you had now

582
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: a record and a file that was created by the

583
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: District Attorney's office and the New York City Department of

584
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: Corrections that was following me upstate, and this file was

585
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: like a red flag making me sound like I'm the

586
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 2: worst of the worst. And you're keep in mind, I

587
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 2: wasn't even in the individual that took this victim's life.

588
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 2: They had me charged as an accomplice, Yet I'm being

589
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: treated like if I was the perpetrator in this case.

590
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 2: So even upstate, where there's even more bias and more racism,

591
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 2: I still went through a lot of more horror. I

592
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 2: was placed in segregation, I was set up with weapons.

593
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 2: Just be shown how easily I could have been in

594
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 2: segregation for years. They also had other inmates attempted to

595
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: do things and ended up getting me into segregation again.

596
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 2: So agony, my hell hole for so many years did

597
00:30:58,840 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: not go away.

598
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 4: How did you maintain I mean, it's a miracle you

599
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 4: maintained your physical wellbeing. I mean, the fact that you're

600
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 4: here is a miracle. How did you maintain your sanity?

601
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 4: How did you maintain your hope? I mean, because somehow

602
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 4: or other, you managed to get to this place where

603
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 4: you are now an exonerated man. Everyone knows you're innocent.

604
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,239
Speaker 4: How do you do that? The scenario your painting is

605
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 4: so so grim, so terribly dark, and like it's everybody's

606
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 4: worst nightmare.

607
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: Literally, when I was in there, I was very angry

608
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 2: and very bitter, and I saw so many individuals doing

609
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 2: what they were doing to me, doing to other individuals

610
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 2: for other reasons. Jailhouse prison reasons, whether it dealt with jealousy, drugs,

611
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: or hatred, envy, whatever it was. But the difference was

612
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 2: that I saw a lot of these individuals that I

613
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: was being told stories about them, or even seeing them

614
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 2: with my own eyes, how they were turning into other

615
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 2: beings that they were never to begin with in the

616
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 2: first place. A lot of them were turning into animals

617
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 2: or were turning into the darkest, worst criminals that they

618
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: were becoming inside of a prison. And when I saw that,

619
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: I said to myself that, no matter how much I'm

620
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: trying to defend myself and fight for my life in

621
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 2: prison from two different parties, the CEOs and the inmates,

622
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 2: I'm not like that. That's not who my parents raised

623
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 2: me to be, and I don't want to become that.

624
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 2: And I just had like an awakening and a conscientious

625
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 2: moment where I thought about my family. I thought about

626
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: those simple words when they tell you I love you,

627
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 2: we will always love you, we're your family, and we'll

628
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 2: always be here for you. And those things used to

629
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: bleed tears in my heart, just reminding me of who

630
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 2: my family was and how did I end up in

631
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,719
Speaker 2: there in the first place. Why was I there, I

632
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 2: asked God and everybody, and I couldnot get the answer

633
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: for so many years, so I didn't know how to

634
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 2: deal with that. But because of that moment, I decided,

635
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 2: you know what, I'm just going to fight in a

636
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: different way, and it's not gonna be with my fist.

637
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 2: It's not gonna be with my fist because I got

638
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 2: to focus on my innocence here and I turned into

639
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,719
Speaker 2: education and I did everything that I could, go to

640
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 2: the law library and write numerous letters to so many

641
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 2: different law firms and law professors and organizations and even

642
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 2: clergy asking for all different types of help. And yet

643
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 2: all of my letters were being rejected or nobody wanted

644
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: to help me because I had no evidence at that

645
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: time to prove my innocence, nor did I have the

646
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 2: financial resources to hire anybody to help me. And education, yes,

647
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: along with my family support, and yeah, a spiritual awakening

648
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 2: as well. I mean, anybody in my opinion that would

649
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 2: say that they never had a spiritual awakening in prison,

650
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: I would say that's a bunch of bs. No matter

651
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 2: what gangst the role or hardcore role they want to play.

652
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 2: To anybody and tell them how much of a big

653
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 2: mato man. They were. When you're locked inside a cell

654
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 2: and that CEOs turn that key and turn off the lights,

655
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 2: and you're thereby yourself in four walls in the dark

656
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 2: and eight x ten cell doing twenty five to life,

657
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 2: the only person you can turn to is God. So yes,

658
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: I did have that awakening in all those different realms

659
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: of life, and that was the only thing that I

660
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 2: was hanging on to, the only thing that I was

661
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 2: clinging on to that kept on giving me that hope

662
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 2: and faith.

663
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 4: What happened to eventually unravel this mess? I mean, because

664
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 4: it's a very difficult thing. Your case was not a

665
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 4: DNA case. I mean, all the cases are difficult, but

666
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 4: at least if it was a DNA case where you

667
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 4: could prove that you weren't there, right, because DNA, we

668
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 4: know it's science, it's pure science. And in this case,

669
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 4: you had a higher degree of difficulty even to prove

670
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 4: it because you weren't convicted based on evidence. So you

671
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 4: can't prove that the evidence is fault because there was

672
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 4: no evidence in the first place. So and as you said,

673
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 4: you weren't a wealthy guy. You couldn't hire a lawyer,

674
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 4: you couldn't attract a lawyer because they look at the

675
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 4: case and they go, well, so how did it break.

676
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: Well, my parents and my child did hire an attorney,

677
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 2: but after that they just can't afford what these attorneys

678
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 2: wanted to take my case. They wanted to charge anywhere

679
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: over six figures, and my parents basically sold the house

680
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 2: that we lived in. They closed down the businesses that

681
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: they had to take this money to hire the attorney

682
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 2: that supposedly was representing me in the beginning, which all

683
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 2: he did was just railroad me and take my family's money.

684
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 2: So all these years of my family going to visit

685
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 2: me in prison, the trips, the tolls, whatever food or

686
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 2: packages they could bring me, this was a financial stretch

687
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 2: for them else exactly. And this keep in mind that, yeah,

688
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: I'm innocent. Here there was a victim in my case,

689
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,760
Speaker 2: a victim that did not deserve to die. He should

690
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 2: have never died. This crime should have never taken the place.

691
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 2: But the one thing that I can't get over is

692
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 2: that I don't know how this sounds, but because of

693
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 2: the actions of someone else, and because of Brian Walkins's death,

694
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 2: I too became a victim. I became a victim where again,

695
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 2: there was no evidence. Nobody wanted to help me, nobody

696
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 2: wanted to believe me. So while I was in the

697
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 2: theater program, there was a woman that approached me. I

698
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 2: was casted as Tony for Westside Story and she was

699
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 2: my music coach, my vocal coach, and she said, you know,

700
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 2: what are you doing here? You don't look like you

701
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 2: belong here. And I said, it's a long story. I'll

702
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 2: tell you another day. And eventually I told her, But

703
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,959
Speaker 2: unbeknownst to me, she winded up contacting a good friend

704
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 2: of her who was a retired police officer, and he

705
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: told her, I said, this is a job for Bill Hughes.

706
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 2: And Bill Hughes at the time was working for the

707
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 2: Journal News up in Westchester County and he was like

708
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 2: a man that exposed the corruption of judges, ada's and

709
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 2: police officers. That was his forte. So he decided to

710
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 2: visit me in one of the shows that I was

711
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 2: in the theater and he started digging into my case

712
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 2: and he told me in the beginning, he said, listen,

713
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 2: because you had no evidence, I didn't really believe you.

714
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 2: But the more I started digging into your case and

715
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 2: I saw these flaws and loopoe, it started making me

716
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,720
Speaker 2: more interested. So he wrote an article that was printed

717
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,280
Speaker 2: in City Limits magazine here in Manhattan, in New York City,

718
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 2: and because of that article, the ex commissioner of the

719
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 2: New York State Division of Parole, Robert Dennison, decided to

720
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: get involved with him, and between the both of them,

721
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 2: they just started conducting their own investigation until they found

722
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 2: evidence with witnesses and letters that actually proved my innocence.

723
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,240
Speaker 2: And that was the reason why New York State judged

724
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 2: throughout my conviction.

725
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 4: So they were like your angels pretty much right, yes,

726
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 4: so in the way your prayers were answered, I suppose.

727
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: Right, yes, they were answered. It took twenty five years.

728
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 2: You know, I'm just glad that I didn't die in there,

729
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 2: because I can't even tell you how many days I

730
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 2: used to wake up in the morning and ask myself

731
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: the same question over and over and over, you know,

732
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 2: is this today? Do I want to live? Or do

733
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 2: I want to die? And there was a moment when

734
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 2: I was on my fifteenth year of being incarcerated, all

735
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 2: my appeals were denied, nobody wanted to help me, and

736
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 2: I just got down on my knees inside my cell

737
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,479
Speaker 2: and I started crying. Out to God and I told God,

738
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 2: I said, listen, please take my life away, because I

739
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 2: can't take this anymore. I can't do this time. I

740
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 2: didn't do this, you know, I didn't do this, and

741
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: I can't be here. I don't want to do this anymore.

742
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,839
Speaker 2: Who would, I said to him. All I wanted was

743
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 2: just to wake up the next morning in heaven. I

744
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 2: didn't have the guts to take my own life. I

745
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 2: couldn't do the suicide, but I wanted him to do

746
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 2: it for me. And the next morning, when I woke up,

747
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 2: I saw those bars in front of me, and I

748
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 2: was so mad at God. I was so pissed at

749
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 2: him because I was still there. There was a miraculous

750
00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 2: turn that took place in my life because since then,

751
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 2: every single door opened up. And that's when Bill Hughes

752
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 2: and Robert Dennison got involved in my case and everything

753
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 2: just went perfectly. I really couldn't believe it. It took

754
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 2: again twenty five years, but everything worked out so smoothly.

755
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 2: That led to my innocence.

756
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 4: And I'm glad you brought that up to Johnny, because

757
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 4: there are people listening who are in a position to

758
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 4: make a difference like that. To take a call, to

759
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 4: take a letter, to take a case like yours, and

760
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 4: while at the outset they all look borderline hopeless. I

761
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:32,800
Speaker 4: have a saying that pertains to this, which is that

762
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 4: I've seen too many miracles to stop believing in miracles.

763
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 4: At the end of the day, it really comes down

764
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 4: to one person. The impact that any of us can make,

765
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 4: which these two individuals did in your case, it's really profound.

766
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 4: I mean, how somebody can come along and really rescue

767
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 4: somebody like you who needs help as badly as anyone

768
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 4: can have or need help in this fight. It's hard

769
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 4: to think of anybody who's more sort of alone and

770
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 4: more desperately in need of somebody to come along and

771
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 4: be that angel than somebody who's wrongfully convicted like yourself.

772
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 4: And there's so many of you out there, right, there's

773
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 4: so many people who've been wronged by this justice or

774
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 4: injustice system, whatever you want to call it, that it

775
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 4: hurts my soul. Now you're here, you ultimately were freed.

776
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 4: What was that experience? Like this is the flip side now?

777
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 2: Right?

778
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 4: So when I mean I as much as you can't

779
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 4: imagine how the desperation and the misery and the total

780
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,879
Speaker 4: shock of being wrongfully convicted. What's it like when that

781
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 4: foot finally comes off your neck?

782
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 2: For me? From my mother, from my family, all the

783
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 2: reporters there. It was a very warm, yet subtle, loud moment,

784
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 2: just seeing that embracing taking place after so long, knowing

785
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,240
Speaker 2: that I wasn't going to go back again, and seeing

786
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 2: the two investigators there, which I finally said to myself,

787
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 2: you know, like a realization popped in my head. Immediately said.

788
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 2: The two people that I'm looking up to right now

789
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 2: is these two investigators, Robert Dennison and Bill Hughes, and

790
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 2: we need more people like that. When you ask my

791
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 2: emotions of walking out, I felt valued again. I felt

792
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 2: like I had worth again as a human being, something

793
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 2: that was taken away from me from the moment that

794
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 2: I was incarcerated. You can be rich, you can be intelligent,

795
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 2: you could be nice and good looking, but if you

796
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 2: don't have ethics in this world, you're never going to

797
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,720
Speaker 2: do the right thing. All those things are worth nothing,

798
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 2: and we need people to do the right thing. We

799
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,320
Speaker 2: need people to have these ethics, to have this courage.

800
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 2: Someone writes a letter like I did, they would want

801
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,320
Speaker 2: to respond, especially when I didn't receive any response and

802
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 2: people were turning me down. We need these type of people.

803
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 2: So yes, I felt like I had worth and I

804
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 2: had value in my life again. Walking out of that courthouse,

805
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 2: I was so overjoyed that I felt I don't know

806
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 2: what words or emotions, but I just felt so happy

807
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 2: that I think that all my worries of dying in

808
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 2: prison were gone now. But nonetheless being out here and

809
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 2: speaking constantly, protesting in city Hall and in New York

810
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 2: State legislature, speaking against false confessions, asking for these cameras

811
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 2: to be placed in in DC interrogations room, and even

812
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: right now speaking about my story my release in the

813
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 2: last eighteen months has been extremely hard for me. I

814
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,439
Speaker 2: constantly remind myself of what I went through every time

815
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 2: I speak about this, and this is not easy. Why

816
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,320
Speaker 2: would an individual like myself that came home after twenty

817
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 2: five years and there's nothing waiting for him, no job,

818
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 2: there's nobody saying, okay, we're gonna help you here. Yet

819
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 2: everybody that is a convicted felon, they have some form

820
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 2: of transitional re entry process to go to, but there's

821
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 2: nothing for an innocent individual to go to or nor

822
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 2: source of help or assistance. This has been extremely crucial

823
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 2: for me, extremely hard for me, difficult. I've had nightmares

824
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,959
Speaker 2: waking up about prison again, and no matter how hard

825
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,280
Speaker 2: I try to put this behind me, I still haven't

826
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,280
Speaker 2: found that piece, no matter how much love my family

827
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 2: give me, because they don't know how to guide me

828
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 2: through this process. They can give me all the hugs,

829
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 2: kisses and affection in the world, but they don't know

830
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 2: how to help me. And I don't know how long

831
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 2: is it gonna take. I don't know how long is

832
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 2: it going to take? Until you know, I continue fighting

833
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 2: and fighting and getting more things accomplished with the help

834
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 2: of the Innos Project and so many other networks of organizations.

835
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 2: I don't know when I'm going to receive that sigh

836
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 2: of happiness. But from the moment, you would think that

837
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 2: freedom is nice. It is nice because I would rather

838
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 2: be out here than in there. But it's hard. It's

839
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 2: very hard.

840
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 4: What are you doing now day to day? Like, aside

841
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 4: from advocating and working for justice reform, what's your daily life?

842
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: Like?

843
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 4: You wake up and I was staying.

844
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 2: With my parents in the beginning, and when I came home,

845
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 2: you know, while I was in prison, just keep in mind,

846
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 2: I did everything in my power when I said to

847
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 2: educate myself. I facilitated classes, went through the theater program,

848
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 2: and I even got myself a master's degree. I had

849
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 2: high aspirations when I came home, and I wanted to

850
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 2: get myself a good job. But nobody really cared with

851
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 2: all the bias, you know, whether I was innocent or not.

852
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 2: They just didn't want to formally incarcerated an individual working

853
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 2: in their working environment. So it was difficult for me

854
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 2: to find a job, and I winded up gaining employment

855
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 2: and a bail bond agency doing bails. So look at this, ironically,

856
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to New York City jails every single night

857
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 2: to bail somebody out, and that has been a turmoil

858
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 2: in a nightmare as well. That was giving me some

859
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 2: substance of financial income, but it just wasn't enough. And

860
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 2: it's how New York City's expensive. Right now. You know,

861
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 2: I have my own apartment now, the money that I

862
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 2: saved up, I got an apartment right now. But it's

863
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 2: still very difficult. And I left that job and I'm

864
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 2: looking for another job now. You know, again, you would

865
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 2: think that, you know, there would be some type of

866
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,359
Speaker 2: network organization or a system say Okay, you know what

867
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 2: you did twenty five years for a crime you didn't commit.

868
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,760
Speaker 2: We're going to help you here get back on your feet.

869
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 2: That doesn't exist for exoneries. It's just not out there,

870
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 2: so it even makes it more difficult.

871
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 4: We'll talk offline about that. I may have some ideas,

872
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 4: but before we have to sign off, I always like

873
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 4: to ask the featured guest, honored guest, if there's any

874
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 4: last thoughts that you want to share with the audience,

875
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 4: get off your chest, anything at all.

876
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 2: You know. I would say that if there were cameras

877
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 2: all over every Prieston in New York, inside every room,

878
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 2: because that needs to be implemented. Cameras need to be

879
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:34,359
Speaker 2: placed in every room in the police precinct because it's

880
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 2: so easy to take someone and put them in another

881
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 2: room when there's not a camera and still beat them

882
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 2: up and then bring him into the interrogation when where

883
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 2: the cameras at so he can make that false confession. So,

884
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 2: now that we have this law passed, anybody out there listening,

885
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 2: anybody that wants to help this be prevented and has

886
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 2: the power to do so, needs to put these politics

887
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,760
Speaker 2: to the side. They need to start thinking about human

888
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 2: beings lives here, because if that camera was there twenty

889
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 2: five years ago, I would have never spent twenty five

890
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 2: years in prison. And don't stop believing, don't stop believing.

891
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 2: I know there's a lot of people out there that

892
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 2: are believers or call themselves believers, but I would say this.

893
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 2: A believer to me is someone that when you know

894
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 2: nothing is out there, there's no way you can prove

895
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 2: your innocence, and you write so many letters and you're

896
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 2: getting all the rejection letters like I was. You know,

897
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 2: most people would just stop. Most people were just that's sick,

898
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 2: give up. It takes somebody to wake up morning after

899
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 2: morning and keep on going at it, to see it

900
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,359
Speaker 2: there when you don't even see it there, and then

901
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 2: to finally receive your innocence. To me, that's a believer.

902
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 2: So I just want to share that with everybody, say

903
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 2: don't stop believing. And that's the believers that we need

904
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 2: out there in society today to keep on encouraging and

905
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 2: helping with this cause here of innocent people in prison

906
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 2: that are still in there and with false confessions.

907
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,359
Speaker 4: I guess it's like I say, you've seen too many

908
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 4: miracles to stop believing in miracles too, and you are

909
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 4: a miracle. Last question, are you on any social media?

910
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 2: You could go on my Facebook page it's Johnny Kopia

911
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 2: joh n n y hi ncapie and on Instagram on

912
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:28,879
Speaker 2: Johnnyincopia Dot seventy two.

913
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 4: Follow him, learn more, get involved. We need your help.

914
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 4: Let's make sure we minimize the future wrongful convictions.

915
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 7: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

916
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 7: get your podcasts.

917
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 3: It really helps.

918
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 7: And I'm a proud donor to the NISNS project and

919
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 7: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

920
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 7: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

921
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 7: to Innocence Project to learn how to donate and get involved.

922
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 7: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and

923
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 7: Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three

924
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,760
Speaker 7: time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow

925
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 7: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at

926
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 7: Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a

927
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 7: production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal

928
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 7: Company Number one