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Speaker 1: Beautiful. If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Software Radio Special Operations Military Wails on

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Speaker 1: straight talk with the guys in the community. Hey, what's

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Speaker 1: going on? This is rad with another awesome episode of

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Speaker 1: softwarep Radio, and today's episode is even more special. Not

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Speaker 1: only is it soft reaps tenth anniversary of being a

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Speaker 1: website bringing you media from within the Special Operations community

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Speaker 1: and abroad, but it's also a sensitive time for those

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Speaker 1: that are around this website who have lost friends in

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Speaker 1: the Benghazi attack. So it's been about ten years September eleventh,

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Speaker 1: two thousand twelve. Every buddy has heard about BEng Ghazi,

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Speaker 1: and if you haven't, well, we're about to talk about

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Speaker 1: what happened on the ground in Benghazi. And I have

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Speaker 1: former diplomat Ethan Choring on with me today to talk

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Speaker 1: about his time on the ground with extensive knowledge of

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Speaker 1: the region of Libya. And welcome to the show. Happy

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Speaker 1: to have you, Ethan, Thank you very much, very happy

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Speaker 1: to be here. I really just want to jump off

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Speaker 1: and talk about your book real quick. Tell me the

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Speaker 1: title of your book from your mouth so we can

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Speaker 1: hear it. Please. The simple title has just ben Ghazi

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Speaker 1: exclamation mark, and the subtitle is long it's uh, a

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Speaker 1: new history of the fiasco that's pushed America and its

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Speaker 1: world to the brink. And I'm not completely responsible for

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Speaker 1: the subtitle, but it does the job, Yes, And I

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Speaker 1: wanted to hear it from you because I read it

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Speaker 1: so many different ways before we had our conversation. The

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Speaker 1: title and it's like, I want to hear you say it, right,

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Speaker 1: So while you're listening, go check out that book wherever

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Speaker 1: books are so old, all right, and get into what

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Speaker 1: we're about to talk about now, Ethan. As I mentioned,

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Speaker 1: this is a sensitive time. You know, we not only

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Speaker 1: have the anniversary of you know, the Benghazi attacks that

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Speaker 1: happened in two thousand twelve, we also have the anniversary

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Speaker 1: of nine eleven that happened to us coming up as well,

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Speaker 1: and that really is what kicked off, you know, the

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Speaker 1: eleven year fight from two thousand and one to two

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Speaker 1: thousand twelve for US getting involved in a lot of

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Speaker 1: global war on terror. Where were you at when nine

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Speaker 1: eleven happened? Where was I? I was visiting my parents

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Speaker 1: in California and had just made it remember vividly, as

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Speaker 1: every most people do. I just made a cup of coffee,

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden I heard my mother scream,

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Speaker 1: come here and watch this, And then of course we

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Speaker 1: watched just the second tower was hit. Yeah, same, I'm

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Speaker 1: in that same boat. My dad came upstairs. He's like, Aaron,

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Speaker 1: turned the TV on. I was like, okay, we woke up,

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Speaker 1: turn the TV on. The first tower was already hit,

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Speaker 1: you know, and then all of a sudden we just saw,

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Speaker 1: maybe like a moment later, just the second one, and

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Speaker 1: my dad looked them and said, Okay, we're under attack.

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Speaker 1: And that's like, oh geez, Dad, you don't talk like that.

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Speaker 1: Former Green Beret, you don't talk like that. And he

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Speaker 1: talked like that. And so you know, that's where I was,

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Speaker 1: that's where you were. What a defining moment in in

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Speaker 1: our in our lifetime. Would you not agree that's a

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Speaker 1: very big thing that happened while we were alive. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it was certainly a earth shaking event. I would argue,

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Speaker 1: maybe that's that are are some of our reaction to

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Speaker 1: it was provoked, A response provoked other things that that

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Speaker 1: might have been better controlled, should I say, But it

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Speaker 1: certainly set off a series of events that has profoundly

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Speaker 1: changed the world. As we know it today. And so

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Speaker 1: what I'm trying to lead into is that that nine

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Speaker 1: eleven was devastating and it's not to be you know,

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Speaker 1: overshrouded by another nine eleven, Right, And that's not what

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Speaker 1: we're trying to talk about. We're trying to talk about

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Speaker 1: an attack that happened in Libya. While September eleven, September eleven,

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Speaker 1: September ten, you were in country in in Libya when

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Speaker 1: that attack happened. Tell me your routine. You get on

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Speaker 1: the plane, you show your special You have a special passport, right,

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Speaker 1: is it maroon? At the time? What colors your passport? Well,

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Speaker 1: the diplomatic passports were black. But at the time I

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Speaker 1: left the I was only in the Foreign Service for

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Speaker 1: about four and a half years. So when I went

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Speaker 1: back to Libyan two thousand, starting in two thousand eleven,

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Speaker 1: up to the attack, I was there as a private,

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Speaker 1: UH person. I had started a small NGO that was

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Speaker 1: focusing on medical reconstruction basically or support after the intervention.

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Speaker 1: And you know, with a with a Libyan American colleague

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Speaker 1: and UH some very loose coordination with with Chris Steven's ambassador.

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Speaker 1: So you were getting a business up and going and

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Speaker 1: the hands the time. It was not a diplomat. I

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Speaker 1: was a regular citizen. But you know, Chris Steven's invited

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Speaker 1: me or for for dinner the night of the of

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Speaker 1: the attack, and you know, I couldn't couldn't help, but

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Speaker 1: I demurred at the time, miss I said, remember saying

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Speaker 1: something like or at least thinking that, you know, hey, Chris,

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Speaker 1: you've got secured lots of security over there, and uh,

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Speaker 1: we're we're unprotected. And of course anybody visiting the US

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Speaker 1: compound in n Yazi or anywhere in the region, you know,

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Speaker 1: can draw draw attention. So but of course, little did

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Speaker 1: I know that in fact, he didn't have as much

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Speaker 1: protection as he should have. But that, you know, the

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Speaker 1: idea that that I might have been there, and that

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Speaker 1: my colleagues might have been there as well, is truly frightening,

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Speaker 1: and I was tremendously upset by the whole whole experience.

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Speaker 1: Chris was a friend. We had a sort of an

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Speaker 1: unusual correspondent relationship for years. I had been in Libya

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Speaker 1: before he first his first tour there, and he had

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Speaker 1: asked called me up and asked me what I thought

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Speaker 1: of Libya and the posting there because he was considering it,

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Speaker 1: and I knew that we both know it was the

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Speaker 1: kind of environment that we both thrived on. And I

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Speaker 1: had the opportunity to down with him a few months

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Speaker 1: before the attack as he was being confirmed as a

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Speaker 1: passet or waiting to be confirmed, and I recall that

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Speaker 1: he had expressed her as frustrations with the pace of

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Speaker 1: things and that he really wanted to I was concerned

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Speaker 1: that Benghazi was going downhill fast from a security perspective,

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Speaker 1: and that the United States had limited time to to

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Speaker 1: get a grip on this and to have a positive

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Speaker 1: impact the key so that that conversation also struck state

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Speaker 1: in my mind. Now, I from media, okay, from things

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Speaker 1: that have been put on the on the big box

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Speaker 1: that we watch at home, and from my perspective, I've

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Speaker 1: heard um that he wanted to go over with a

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Speaker 1: small security detail to not really make a big presence

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Speaker 1: that he was there during that you know, tension built

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Speaker 1: time in Benghazi where he knew it was a fragile situation, right,

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Speaker 1: and so he is that My understanding is he was

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Speaker 1: kind of wanting a small detail just to move in

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Speaker 1: kind of clandestine. Well, I think abst Receiven's. Chris as

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Speaker 1: I knew him, was certainly very mindful of the fact

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Speaker 1: that moving around places like Benghaza, you don't want to

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Speaker 1: draw lots of attention to yourself, and there's a you know,

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Speaker 1: probably no, no real good balance between being protected and

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Speaker 1: not drawing excessive attention to yourself. So you know, there

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Speaker 1: were various there as this has been gone into in

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Speaker 1: various different forums, but you know, there were specific circumstances

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Speaker 1: around that at that particular trip, which one can get

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Speaker 1: deeply into, which are you know, very unfortunate. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I don't. I felt after the after the

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Speaker 1: attack that that Chris, Chris's decisions were sort of unfairly

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Speaker 1: and understandably. I mean, one can understand why he became

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Speaker 1: a lightning rod and maybe to some extent place to

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Speaker 1: put some of the anger and fear that people had.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I did I did not. I did

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Speaker 1: not see him as the as the He was a

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Speaker 1: risk taker, but not not with out reason, so a

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Speaker 1: premeditated thinker, so he was thinking his thoughts. This was

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Speaker 1: not a decision that he took lightly. I mean I

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Speaker 1: also interviewed for the book many people who were with

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Speaker 1: him just before and and in the hours and the

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Speaker 1: days before the attack. I had been texting and speaking

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Speaker 1: with him in the day before the days before the

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Speaker 1: attack as well, so I have some even though I

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Speaker 1: was not a direct eyewitnesses and I wasn't on the

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Speaker 1: compound at the time, I was sensing what was going

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Speaker 1: on just before, and I was on the phone with people,

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Speaker 1: were in contact with his people, and had just been

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Speaker 1: in contact with some of his security people before the attack,

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Speaker 1: and was on the phone with one of one of

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Speaker 1: his security people while the attack was going on. And

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Speaker 1: then you know, I was actually physically at a hotel

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Speaker 1: about three kilometers away, which served as one of Chris's

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Speaker 1: early basis while he was an envoid, and which would

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Speaker 1: be the sort of the other was the other place

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Speaker 1: where well, some strange things were going on around the

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Speaker 1: hotel of the time, and it's what I was just

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Speaker 1: a surreal scene I described in the book in the

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Speaker 1: first chapter, basically, the first long prologue chapter is UH

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Speaker 1: is sort of my view of what happened from the

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Speaker 1: day I left Istanbul from a flight to Benghazi and

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Speaker 1: then building up to the attack, and it's UH. The

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Speaker 1: it's not the sort of security I view the commando.

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Speaker 1: I view that that we're mostly familiar with. It's it's well,

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Speaker 1: that's what I saw. Well, you're working for the country

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Speaker 1: as a diplomat, So commando up all you want, sir,

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Speaker 1: All right, let me just tell you that I talked

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Speaker 1: to that. It wasn't. It wasn't at the time. It

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Speaker 1: was No, that's too. You're just a regular individual living

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Speaker 1: your life, trying to open up a business to help

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Speaker 1: the people over there with medical equipment. So I wanted

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Speaker 1: to point that out that there was a point to

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Speaker 1: where you were able to try to create a business,

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Speaker 1: get it going, work with the locals, have handshakes with

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Speaker 1: businessmen in that industry, in that area. And I wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about momar Ghadafi's son, okay,

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Speaker 1: who also was trying to like stop anything from happening,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of people were coming at him, and

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Speaker 1: he was very west centralized with a lot of his talk.

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Speaker 1: And he was a younger man. I mean, I believe

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Speaker 1: he got captured, etcetera. Where he's at, I'm not sure.

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Speaker 1: And then his father was found to be and you know,

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Speaker 1: captured and killed and dragged the streets. Now I'm saying

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Speaker 1: that up until Benghazi, you were over there leading kind

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Speaker 1: of a normal life, trying to get a business running. Correct, Well,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't. It certainly wasn't a normal life, and it

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Speaker 1: wasn't a business eire I mean. But we started a

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Speaker 1: small nonprofit and the idea was to try to bring

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Speaker 1: American teaching hospitals and specific technologies related to like diagnoses

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Speaker 1: of diabetes related illnesses. Diabetes is a huge problem in

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Speaker 1: UH in Libya, and I felt like my experience there

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Speaker 1: in the past was just drawing me back, that I

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Speaker 1: couldn't not be involved and trying to do something. After

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Speaker 1: the intervention, I called up, I called Chris up and said, look,

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Speaker 1: i'd I'd love to come back and to the State

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Speaker 1: Department and work for you if UH and we both

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Speaker 1: knew that was that was sort of unlikely. He he

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Speaker 1: sort of laughed and said, yeah, you know, Ethan, by

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Speaker 1: the time you get back in the system and UH

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Speaker 1: and could join and could join, you'd probably be posted

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Speaker 1: to Venezuela and I wouldn't see you for a few years. So,

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Speaker 1: um so I did the next thing, and I had

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Speaker 1: people around me who were similarly motivated, and yeah, looking

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Speaker 1: back on it. I mean it was sort of a

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Speaker 1: crazy in quotes decision. I mean, uh, you know, I left.

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Speaker 1: I was working in Dubai at the time, and and

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Speaker 1: my colleague basically just quite what we're doing and started

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Speaker 1: making trips to Benghazi. If I look back on it

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Speaker 1: now and trying to figure out where that rational decision

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Speaker 1: came from, It's not it wasn't rational. It was a

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Speaker 1: gout feeling and instinct, and we followed it as far

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Speaker 1: as we could. Uh yeah, I mean the time in

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Speaker 1: Libya as a diplomat was one of the most interesting

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Speaker 1: periods in my life. And it was a bit by

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Speaker 1: you know, I wound up there a bit by accident

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Speaker 1: in a way. You know, the Arabic speakers and the

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Speaker 1: department were all sent off to UH sucked up by

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Speaker 1: the Iraq war, and there weren't you just joined and

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Speaker 1: I had Arabic and other things that were a background

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Speaker 1: in UH resource economics and stint in an oil company,

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Speaker 1: so like, well, let's send you off as a as

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Speaker 1: a as a new new diplomat to to to Libya

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Speaker 1: is And it seemed like no one else wanted really

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Speaker 1: wanted to go, which I thought was you know, Chris

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Speaker 1: and I was sort of wonder at that. It's like,

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Speaker 1: why wouldn't an experience like that, looking under the hood

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Speaker 1: of Moa Markadafi's Libya be fascinating? But and that's I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think that's a bigger thing is that, you know, particularly,

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Speaker 1: I think the theme of risk is one that permeates

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Speaker 1: the whole Benghazi story and the broader engagement with the

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Speaker 1: Middle East. And you really can't and I know that

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Speaker 1: Chris Felt felt the same way. You can't engage with

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Speaker 1: people if you can talk to them and get out

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Speaker 1: and out into the field. And the problem is that

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Speaker 1: more and more risk has become the has been staltifying everything.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a number of officials Defense Department, in

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Speaker 1: other places in d C have described this as sort

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Speaker 1: of the Benghazi effect, that this sort of pervasive risk,

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Speaker 1: aversion that we can't nobody wants to make the decision

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Speaker 1: to send to do something that might trigger another political

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Speaker 1: blowout and wind up, you know, yanking people in a committee.

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Speaker 1: And that's that basically means that American foreign policy is

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Speaker 1: hijacked domestic politics, Like we're not we don't have an

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Speaker 1: independent foreign policy anymore. We're we're always worried about who's

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Speaker 1: attacking us or who we're attacking at home, and that

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Speaker 1: is a true that is one of the biggest threats

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Speaker 1: to our position as a as a world power. We

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Speaker 1: should have more dialogue with leaderships around the world to

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Speaker 1: at least have an open phone line. Well that that too.

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Speaker 1: I think over the years, the both on the Democrat

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Speaker 1: and Republican side, successive administrations have kind of eroded our

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Speaker 1: bureaucracies and are both both the ties and the communication

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Speaker 1: between the military, the State department, in our security services.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't work. It doesn't work very well. And that's

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Speaker 1: one of the big problems in with with ben Ghazi

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Speaker 1: was the fact that there were multiple sort of pockets

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Speaker 1: of professional experts who had an opinion about what was

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Speaker 1: going on there, but the information didn't seem to to

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Speaker 1: percolate up in a very efficient way. And the you know,

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Speaker 1: at the at the highest level, there was this also

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Speaker 1: this very deep justified concern that anything that was done

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Speaker 1: would be fodder for political attacks. So there's so these

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Speaker 1: defensive walls and these misaligned communications around basic intelligence and

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Speaker 1: I so that opens up a whole other doors of discussion.

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Speaker 1: But there it is, well, yeah, because right after, I

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Speaker 1: mean after two thousand twelve, after this happened, it was

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Speaker 1: used as a lightning rod. There was a lot of

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Speaker 1: chatter about Benghazi, you know, and then we had the

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Speaker 1: elections coming around in about two thousand fifteen, two thousand

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Speaker 1: and sixteen, you know, but all that chatter had just

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Speaker 1: kind of carried over to it, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: blame was being placed on, you know, the Secretary of

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Speaker 1: State Hillary Clinton at the time, I believe she was

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Speaker 1: Secretary of State and what she was or was not

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Speaker 1: doing according to you know, popular opinion. I know that

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Speaker 1: people close to me have lost personal best friends in

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Speaker 1: that situation, and it's a very sensitive subject matter, and

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Speaker 1: I too, am a little upset that they lost their

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Speaker 1: best friends, and friends have died and friends had to

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Speaker 1: defend each other to try to not die and tried

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Speaker 1: to recover. You know, Ambassador Stevens, you know body, and

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Speaker 1: you know, to give him a proper send off as

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Speaker 1: he deserves, you know, for being a selfless individual to

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Speaker 1: go into a hostile environment where he didn't feel it

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Speaker 1: probably a hostile it was becoming. He just knew that

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Speaker 1: it was a powder keg, and he was trying to

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Speaker 1: get in there and maybe defuse it, and it just

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Speaker 1: got out of control. And that's me the Americans point

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Speaker 1: of view, right, that's what I think, right, So I

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Speaker 1: wasn't there again on the ground. Well, the Chris Stevens

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Speaker 1: and other names we know, we know well are without

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Speaker 1: a doubt heroes. The degree of professionalism and selflessness was extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: I think every you know, everybody performed in a very

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Speaker 1: difficult situation extremely well, but unfortunately didn't have the for

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Speaker 1: the resource, the broader resources that to avoid what what

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Speaker 1: ultimately happened. But you know, ben Guzi was a perfect

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Speaker 1: as I talked about in the book, ben Guzi was

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Speaker 1: a perfect scandal. I mean, you really couldn't have have

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Speaker 1: for a whole range of reasons. It really couldn't have

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Speaker 1: designed an event or a machine that would disrupt the

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Speaker 1: the sort of the political space and our foreign policy

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Speaker 1: as as much as Benghazi did and invert into ways

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Speaker 1: that aren't visible. I mean nine eleven you sort of

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Speaker 1: saw a lot of that was was visible. Of course,

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Speaker 1: there was there were layers beneath it, which we discovered

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Speaker 1: more and more as time went by, but has been

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Speaker 1: reduced to this sort of event that ultimately a lot

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Speaker 1: of noise and then not a whole lot of actual impact.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's the biggest myth that I wanted

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Speaker 1: to burst in this in this book. Benghazi had a

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Speaker 1: huge impact. It just wasn't It hasn't been sort of

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Speaker 1: because of the political sensitivities and toxicity of it, it

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Speaker 1: has not been given its due, which is ironic, of course,

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Speaker 1: because precisely you would think that something that had ten

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Speaker 1: congressional committees looking into it and you know, endless news

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Speaker 1: and memes and tweets, etcetera, would would be more defined,

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Speaker 1: but it's not. We reduce it all to that that

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Speaker 1: that period of time during the attack, and it's almost

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Speaker 1: like there wasn't it before, and there hasn't been an after.

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Speaker 1: It was just like that happened and it just culminated

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Speaker 1: to that situation. You know, why was Benghazi such a

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Speaker 1: huge such a powder kig? I think there are a

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Speaker 1: couple of a few reasons. One is that it, of course,

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Speaker 1: it took place on the anniversary of nine eleven. It

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Speaker 1: took place in the lead up to to the presidential election,

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Speaker 1: in which security issues were one of the prime areas

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Speaker 1: of contention between Romney and Obama, and and connected to

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Speaker 1: so many other sort of issues, identity issues. It was

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Speaker 1: also a period of time in which social media was

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Speaker 1: evolving to the point where it had the capability to

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Speaker 1: polarize much of the media and the general republic a

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Speaker 1: degree they simply hadn't been around before. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is a factor that hasn't been discussed a lot, but

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Speaker 1: I interviewed a number of data scientists and people follow

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Speaker 1: social media trends and economics, and you know, many of

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Speaker 1: them have said that that period of all two thousand

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Speaker 1: eleven was really the moment where social media and its

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Speaker 1: algorithms came into its own as a tool of influence.

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Speaker 1: Had the attack occurred a few months before or a

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Speaker 1: year before, whatever, that would not have played into such

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Speaker 1: a So the combination of all of those things and

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Speaker 1: the animosities that that were stirring around, you know that

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Speaker 1: over for years at that point, was just created something

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Speaker 1: that that was much more teams articles written off of

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Speaker 1: the cuff of feelings, not of facts. You know, everybody

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Speaker 1: wants to Rubik's Cuba into their own narrative, so it

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Speaker 1: just works for them. But there are like two sides

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Speaker 1: to the story. It can be looked at that way,

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Speaker 1: But nobody wants to hear the side the way it

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Speaker 1: went down. They want to continue to extrapulate that lightning rod,

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Speaker 1: you know. And I'm not trying to again pick one

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Speaker 1: side another, It's just true, and there's a lightning rod

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Speaker 1: that has held to Benghazi. It has a nice you know,

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Speaker 1: it could be a nice town. It could still be

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Speaker 1: a place where you can go and you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: try to live after it recovers from its situation that

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Speaker 1: it's been through all these years of war. But you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I just don't like to see us polarized ourselves against

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Speaker 1: one another, because it was the perfect means for America

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Speaker 1: to essentially fall upon itself and start what I call

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Speaker 1: a massive exercise and self harm or cannibalism. Maybe a

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Speaker 1: cartoon that was published in The Onion a few years

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Speaker 1: ago which showed a couple of jihad Is sitting on

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Speaker 1: a couch under the caption watching TV. Under the caption

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Speaker 1: FBI reports finds plots by al Qaeda to sit back,

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Speaker 1: relax and watch America destroy itself, which I think is

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Speaker 1: I mentioned that in the book, and I think that's

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Speaker 1: a perfect summary of what the partisan all of that

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Speaker 1: has done to this country, it's well not our own

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Speaker 1: leg off without even being trapped. We're not. We're not

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Speaker 1: even in the trap. Like the wolf in the trap,

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Speaker 1: he would not his leg off for a reason. We're

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Speaker 1: just gnawing our leg off. That analogy could get pretty

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Speaker 1: gruesome fast. To stop it, Yeah, I know, I know,

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Speaker 1: I know, and but I'll let you continue to talk. Please,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you think about it, al Kainda, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there's been some debate as to what's been

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Speaker 1: Laden and his deputy and then successor Zoiety. We're thinking

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Speaker 1: in terms of what they thought the consequence of nine

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Speaker 1: eleven would be, and presumably you know that this extends

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Speaker 1: to to Benghazi too. What did they do? They expect

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Speaker 1: that the United States would tie itself up in knots

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Speaker 1: over at launch of war in Iraq and become this

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Speaker 1: twisted knot of partisanship because essentially we're by allowing this

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Speaker 1: to this, these conflicts to fester, we're essentially allowing our

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Speaker 1: advertge adversaries, not just al Qaieda, but other other competitors

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Speaker 1: and adversaries globally to come in and move into the

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Speaker 1: space which we previously had much more influence and that

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Speaker 1: pairs with the uh the risk aversion. You know, we

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Speaker 1: can't and there's this pervasive feeling that we shouldn't be.

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Speaker 1: You know, I can't tell you the number of people,

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Speaker 1: both on the right and the left that I've spoken with,

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Speaker 1: who say, you know, we shouldn't be in the Middle

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Speaker 1: East at all. What has this region brought us other

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Speaker 1: than than conflict and misery and oil. But you know,

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Speaker 1: if we're not there, we can't have any any influence.

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Speaker 1: And regardless of what we do, the Middle East has

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Speaker 1: such strategic and other influence on us, uh that we

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Speaker 1: we wind up getting sucked in anyway. So we might

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Speaker 1: as well have some you know, I think if we

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Speaker 1: addicate the Middle East, we're abdicating our role as a

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Speaker 1: superpower and our influence, which extends to all kinds of

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Speaker 1: other areas, including uh, you know, issues related to the

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Speaker 1: environment and climate and future of the world. Otherwise we

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Speaker 1: become just another one of these uh, you know, the

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Speaker 1: one of a number, and that's not what what the

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Speaker 1: United States has has aspired to. You know, I think

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Speaker 1: that you hit on a good point, you know, um,

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Speaker 1: knowing a language of your counterpart can go a long way.

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Speaker 1: Having someone sent into a theater of operation to take

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Speaker 1: over for somebody that speaks Arabic and does not speak

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Speaker 1: Arabic is not going to go well. So if you

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Speaker 1: send diplomats to these far off regions that don't have

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Speaker 1: an understanding of even to say hello, or where's the

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Speaker 1: bathroom or how do I get a drink of water

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Speaker 1: in that other countries language, that kind of does a diservice. Well, yes,

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Speaker 1: this is this, this is part of this is part

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Speaker 1: of the sort of loss of American expertise. I think

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Speaker 1: the the you know, with all of this politick incomes

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Speaker 1: a lot of political appointees and people who and maneuvering

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Speaker 1: based on a person's political views or affiliations or past

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Speaker 1: past opinions that really should not be a part of

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Speaker 1: a cold calculation that's in American national interest and we

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Speaker 1: need many more experts. I mean, I think both the

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Speaker 1: Iraq War, ironically, you know, I think the Iraq War

429
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 1: and nine eleven boosted interest general interest in studying languages

430
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: and things like the Arabic among others. But I don't

431
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 1: think that that's translated into a long term hard asset

432
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 1: in terms of the number of people who are truly

433
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 1: proficient in these languages and understand the region. I mean

434
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 1: from an analytical when have the analytical capacity to offer

435
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 1: strong policy advice. I'm sure the number of people who

436
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: are trained up in Arabic has you know, in absolute terms,

437
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 1: has increased, but not nearly enough and not uh strategically enough.

438
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 1: And I think that that goes across the board. American

439
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: I was gonna say that, you know, more civilians learning

440
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: the language. I understand the military going through the Defensive

441
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: Language Institute. You know, you're gonna send guys to the

442
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,719
Speaker 1: d l I. They're gonna go there, They're gonna learn

443
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: how to speak another language. They're gonna get trained up

444
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: on that for their job. Like a Green Beret is

445
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: gonna learn another language. You're gonna learn this for that

446
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 1: theater of operations that you're gonna work in. You're gonna

447
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,360
Speaker 1: learn how to work with those people. That's really great

448
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: because they're working on, like you know, how to like

449
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 1: save a nation from fighting each other and killing each other.

450
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: But what we need is someone maybe who's not so

451
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: who who's going through school right now in dual immersion

452
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 1: learning another language, who's an eleventh grader who has fluent

453
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: Chinese under her belt, who could possibly become a diplomat

454
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,959
Speaker 1: okay with you know, educated or diplomatic coord that's capable

455
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 1: of identifying and absorbing those people and compensating them at

456
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 1: a reasonable lup. Mean, you know, you don't join the government,

457
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: as they say, to get wealthy. But the amount of

458
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: resources that are available to hire and train and search

459
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: for people who would who would be able to serve

460
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 1: our country and in that capacity is not nearly enough,

461
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: and it's constantly under threat. Those listeners out there that

462
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: are listening to us right now, who might be in

463
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: school for a secondary language, they said, maybe didn't think

464
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: what they were going to do with it. Well, maybe

465
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: it could be a diplomat. Maybe you're diplomatic, you know

466
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: material I'm just saying. You're saying it's like one of

467
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: the best jobs you ever had. Well, I should say

468
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: that the time that I had in Libya was extraordinary

469
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: and and it was an extraordinary set of circumstances. I

470
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 1: you know, but you know, I quickly realized that in

471
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 1: my following post. I mean, I had had a tremendous

472
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 1: also immersion program in in uh in Farsi where you know,

473
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: essentially you could never get such a a training and

474
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: anywhere else in that context. But the subsequent UH postings

475
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: were much more sort of constrained and bureaucratic effect. Could

476
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 1: say than than I really liked being out in the field,

477
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: I did not. I did not like being in a

478
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: in a desk job. And I also realized that, you know,

479
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: in order to have the experience, it was almost like

480
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: an inverted experience. In order to have the kind of

481
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: experience that I had in Libya, I'd probably have to

482
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: stay in the fourth service another ten years to to

483
00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: get that degree of exposure. And yeah, I I this

484
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 1: is a bit of a diversion. But in terms of

485
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: your audience that might be considering going to work for

486
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: the state department or etcetera. I mean, I think that

487
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: the system needs to change a bit in the sense

488
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: that it would become attractive to someone, you know, say

489
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: mid career, who has other skills, who could come in,

490
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: do four years of service and then go out. Part

491
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 1: of the problem is that it's it's been cultivated. Is

492
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: this you know, your your one career, you join and

493
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 1: you stay there, stay there forever. But people these days

494
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: aren't looking for and and the world does not exist.

495
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: That world doesn't really exist anymore, but as an early

496
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: career or mid mid career stint, I think it's a

497
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: it's a wonderful opportunity. You can get a master's degree

498
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: in something that that's covered by the by the by

499
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: the State Department. You can learn another another language to

500
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: a serious degree, and you can get an exposure to

501
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: the rest of the world that you would otherwise not

502
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 1: not not have. And I think that and fellowships like

503
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: the Fulbright and various other US government fellowships to study

504
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: abroad are just exactly what the kind of thing that

505
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 1: the United States it's needs. People need to get out

506
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: out of their silos and go and and and live

507
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: with other people and communicate with them. Changes completely, completely completely.

508
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: I've traveled around, you know, been to a couple of places,

509
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: and and I come back to America and I'm always

510
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 1: just like, okay, I'm back in America. We are who

511
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: we are. We are you know, the gun toting, you know,

512
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: protesting uh kind of American. You know, it's like come on, man,

513
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: that's all come on, you know, like what we got here.

514
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 1: You go over to England or to London and you

515
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: walk that whole city, you walk like thirty miles so happily.

516
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: You're just like, why is everything just so? I don't know.

517
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: You come back over here and everybody's kind of piste

518
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: off all the time. I come through immigration and he's like,

519
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: who are you some kind of Navy seal duck commander?

520
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,479
Speaker 1: And I just looked at him and I said, does

521
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: that get me into America? And he's like, come on in.

522
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: It's like they didn't say that to me in England.

523
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: He's like what. He's like, what's your purpose over here

524
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: in England? You know? My friend wrote on his when

525
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: you enter, you know, into the country after right, what

526
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: you're coming in for? He did. He had the notion

527
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: to write international playboy? All right, so we go up,

528
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: we go up. I right on, I'm in there for

529
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: what I'm doing, you know. And I go to the

530
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: immigration officer and I'm like, I'm here to check into

531
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: your country. He's like, okay, you're gonna be hosting a

532
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: boxing match. I'm like yeah. He's like you're making any money?

533
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: I was like, no, it's for charity. He's like, come

534
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: on in. He looks at my buddy, He's like, what's

535
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: this night, huh? International playboy? He thinks it's a joke.

536
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: He's like, I've been to America. Do you think your

537
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: international immigration would treat me the same way I'm treating

538
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: you right now? And I was like, you know what,

539
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: when I went back home, our guys were jerks. I'm

540
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: an American straight up walked in. He's like, automatic name,

541
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: what are you a duck commander? You know? And I'm like, bro, like,

542
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: let's get over ourselves, all right. We all believe the

543
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: same blood on the inside. That's my opinion, okay, because

544
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: prove me otherwise. Yeah, I've had some interesting conversations on

545
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: immigration Lenes as well. Just like that's just me saying that.

546
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: You don't call that out, but I think that with

547
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: regards to uh, you know, Benghazi, and I do want

548
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: to say a couple of names. I want to say

549
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,239
Speaker 1: Glenn Doherty. I want to give his name, you know,

550
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: some uh foreverness on my program. All right. He's one

551
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: of the seals that was lost as a contractor Tyrone Woods,

552
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: one of his battle buddies. I believe they Yeah, they

553
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: left the situation they were dealing with to try to

554
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: get involved and help what was going on over at

555
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: Ambassador Stevens compound with a lot of the contractors that

556
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: were there trying to defend the situation and ultimately succumbed

557
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,479
Speaker 1: to you know, that firefight and the death that this

558
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: was bestowed upon them unfortunately. So you know, I just

559
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: want to get Glen a shout out and Tyrone and

560
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: and all of the guys out there that did fight

561
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: to bring everybody else home that was there, including themselves

562
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: and their brothers next to them. I understand where you

563
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: come from when you guys are like, you weren't there, man,

564
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: You're right, I wasn't. I was not there. But I

565
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,959
Speaker 1: don't know if Michael Bay was there either. And I

566
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: just want to say this, did Michael Bay before Benghazi

567
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: came out that movie? Did he talk to you about

568
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: anything about the movie? I'm just curious because that movie

569
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: came out pretty quick. No. Yeah, I thought that the

570
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,479
Speaker 1: book Thirteen Hours I thought was a very useful and

571
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: rather nonpartisan description and very very helpful. The movie was

572
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: it was a bit a bit uh not, and I

573
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: felt that the treatment of of Christine particular was very

574
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: inaccurate and somewhat disrespectful. But yeah, the part of the

575
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: fascination and and maybe a sense of outrage that Benghazi

576
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: provoked was in fact this empathy with those four individuals

577
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: that you know, and an admiration for their heroism. I

578
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: think you know who would have the You know, it

579
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: takes a special person to be in that situation to

580
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: begin with, and to and and to do what they

581
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: did was it was just admirable. There's nothing else to say.

582
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: And the media reaction is always going to be, you know,

583
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: why did this happen? Why did this have to happen?

584
00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: And how do we make sure this doesn't happen again?

585
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: And to look and the instinct is to look for

586
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: someone to blame, and of course everybody started to look

587
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: for someone to blame, but one hoax. And again, I

588
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: that's sort of something that I keep saying in the

589
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: emphasizing in the book, is that we have an opportunity

590
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: here to look beyond these sort of details about which

591
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: some of which will maybe never even be clear, and

592
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: look at the context and how do how do we

593
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: get here? And what damage has this been doing to

594
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: our country and our our our institutions, whether the military,

595
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: the State Department, etcetera. I mean, we cannot continue to

596
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: be as to use that metaphor before to sort of

597
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: cannibal as our own ourselves over these issues and take

598
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: the eye off the off the bigger issue, you know,

599
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: what is our role in the in the world and

600
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: in the years to come. And they're still conflicting over

601
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: there right now with your sources, do you have people

602
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: on the ground that are like still chatting with you saying, hey,

603
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: you know, you know, we haven't ever We're not recovered

604
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: from the situation. Is Libya trying to get back up

605
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: on its two feet? What's your thoughts? Well, but yeah,

606
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,959
Speaker 1: this is part of the part of the issue is

607
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: that the impact of of Benghazi on the ground in

608
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: the Middle East has been spectacular. I mean, basically, you

609
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: look at Libya. We essentially went from intervening to protect Benghazi,

610
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: a city but of less than under a million people,

611
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: from the wrath of Kadafi to handing the eastern part

612
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: of Libya over to al Qaeda and isis it's not

613
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: an optimal but by far an optimal outcome. And the

614
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,479
Speaker 1: whole democratic transition, the whole governance process, as fragile as

615
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: it was to start with and it's sort of hanging

616
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: by a thread, was completely overturned. And Libya has been

617
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: in the course of the last ten years essentially set

618
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: upon itself with various proxies fighting and adding more more

619
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: fuel to the fire. You know, Russia with influence influence

620
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: in Libya, Turkey in the West, and various other proxies

621
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: sort of circling around, and the Libyans have lost control

622
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: to the large loge extent of their own of their

623
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: own destiny. That is, you know, for a country of

624
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: six point five million people, that's that's an absolute tragedy.

625
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: And the same could be said of Syria. There. I've

626
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: had many argument discussions with people who were who are

627
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: very intimately involved with with aspects of Syria policy, and

628
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: we still haven't cracked that not But basically the United

629
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 1: States was was working proxies in both countries at critical

630
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 1: points in their revolutions and trying to pick between allies

631
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,439
Speaker 1: that we thought might be more moderate and steer away

632
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: from those who are a bit more radical or more radical.

633
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: But we really didn't know who was who. And Benghazi essentially,

634
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: as one well known journalist said, she she felt that

635
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: Benghazi had killed the whispers of a strong Syria policy

636
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: and now that can be applied also to our approach

637
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: to warfare in like Yemen, where we're relying much more

638
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: on drone warfare and less on boots on the ground

639
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: and in person intelligence. And I know that there's been

640
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: quite a bit, quite a bit of controversy within the

641
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,720
Speaker 1: military about whether that's you know, the the ultimate implications

642
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,399
Speaker 1: of that. And I also ask whether in fact, our

643
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: policy with respect to Iran may not have been influenced

644
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: by by Benghazi as well, because the Obama administration, you know,

645
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: had had suggested from a very start that had seen

646
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: a nuclear deal with Iran to be a prize worth

647
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: pursuing and possibly some one that would avert war. But

648
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: given the way that things happened with the Benghazi a

649
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: politically essentially and with the arrival of the Trump administration,

650
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 1: of course, the Iran deal was was taken instantly off

651
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 1: the table. And I don't think the abod administration thought

652
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: forward to that even that possibility, and de facto, I

653
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: would not be surprised if Iran has a you know,

654
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: essentially we'll get a bomb, will get a nuclear weapons

655
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: capacity very very quickly. Well, the International you know, nuclear

656
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: program was working with Iran when we had that nuclear

657
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 1: treaty to make sure everything was going correct. You know,

658
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: Olivia is not nuclear right, They're not a nuclear threat

659
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: at this point that we're aware of, no, and they

660
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: were never really close to close to that. That's yeah.

661
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: You know Olivia was used as a nuclear non proliferation

662
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,879
Speaker 1: success in two thousand three, again after in the wake

663
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: of the Iraq Iraq War, something that we failed to

664
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: find uh w M d s in in Iraq, but

665
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: we have We were able to divest Kadafi of his

666
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: of his nukes and chemical weapons, but he really had

667
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 1: no no nuclear advanced nuclear program, and he did have

668
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: chemical precursors anyway. That's another and again sort of in

669
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 1: the realm of the realm of politics. Well, isn't nuclear

670
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: medicine kind of like the same thing as nuclear capabilities

671
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: if you have, like, you know, the capabilities to have

672
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 1: you know, that harnessed for nuclear medicine. Isn't there a

673
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: need for nuclear to a point to where Iran and

674
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: Libya could have those types of components to help their

675
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: people versus like the bomb. Well, I'm not sure about medicine,

676
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 1: but I think power is certainly there's a there's a

677
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: better interface for connection with with nuclear weapons capacity. And yeah,

678
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: I mean we look, there's a there's a fundamental that

679
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: that that opens up a bigger issue. Who is allowed

680
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 1: to have nuclear power and weapons? You know, Pakistan is

681
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 1: a nuclear power and we don't. And there are certainly

682
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 1: that presents the same kinds of issues that that that

683
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 1: Iran Iran would. I'm not sure I want to adventure

684
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: into this topic so so too deeply. Well, it's fine,

685
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: it's fine, No, it's fine, it's but I mean, my

686
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: point was to say that the you can't obviously redo

687
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 1: the experiment of history. But Benghazi really had a number

688
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 1: of impacts, broad impacts through the what I mentioned before,

689
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: they sort of this pervasive risk aversion and the you know,

690
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: it's impact on further impacting the partisan warfare in the

691
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 1: United States that are significant, and we really don't give

692
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: these days. Nobody wants to talk, you know, essentially, it's

693
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 1: interesting at least the perception is that no one wants

694
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: to talk about Benghazi. I think a lot of people

695
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about Beghazi because it doesn't seem

696
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: to have a resolution, like, it doesn't lead anywhere. It's

697
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: just going to open up a fight over something to

698
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: do with Hillary Clinton or you know, and who who's

699
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: who's right and who's wrong about the video and all

700
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,919
Speaker 1: of this other stuff. But there are lots of things

701
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: to talk about, and in fact, the things to talk

702
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: about are how did that the impact of that, those

703
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: billowing clouds of partisanship that lasted for forty four plus years,

704
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: that had an impact, and it had an impact on

705
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 1: how we do things abroad. It hasn't had an impact

706
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,760
Speaker 1: on America's you know, performance and ability to assess threats.

707
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: And I sort of talked about Benghazi is something like

708
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: a if not eleven was the sort of original original

709
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 1: sin Benghazi was kind and the reaction to it Gazi

710
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 1: was kind of like a signal booster perpetuated the harmful

711
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: dynamics without offering much of a yeah, yeah, I did it.

712
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,240
Speaker 1: Just like it just opened up that wound again because

713
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: they hit us on nine eleven. Nine eleven just brings

714
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,399
Speaker 1: us back to the original nine eleven. People then just

715
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: polarized the Middle East as nine eleven and then nine eleven.

716
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: Just get this this whole branding for Let's go to war.

717
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:35,280
Speaker 1: Friend and colleague who described America's response to the original

718
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,280
Speaker 1: nine eleven is something of a we should have treated

719
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: this not as an ideological a signal for ideological warfare,

720
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: but a criminal, mass criminal act. And by going into

721
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 1: that on that space of ideology and with us and

722
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: against or against us and the war on you know,

723
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: the endless war on terror, etcetera, we managed to perpetuate

724
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: the things that really should have been contained and addressed

725
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:04,359
Speaker 1: as again a a more or less as a mass

726
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: criminal act. And we still don't Again, we still don't

727
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: have We still don't know, you know, because it was yeah, absolutely,

728
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: But by essentially recognizing this, by giving fuel to the

729
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: ideologues who launched the attack and to begin with, that

730
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: can only result in more harm to ourselves. And you know,

731
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 1: if you look at ben take the whole history from

732
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: nine eleven to Benghazi and beyond, al Qaeda with its

733
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,720
Speaker 1: with its strategic attacks has managed to do more harm

734
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: than I think they ever expected they could have done,

735
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 1: not just by their own hands, by our our own

736
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: responses doing as well. And if that's something you know

737
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: one another here in in America, it's just an interesting

738
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 1: you know, we were trying to say climate I guess

739
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: you know, I talked to a lot of people in

740
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: my industry, and some people don't they're like, rad you

741
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 1: really think like that? And I'm like, well, I think, like,

742
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 1: what like giving water to my neighbor or maybe giving

743
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: you a bandage if you cut yourself. Yeah, I think

744
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: like that. You know, It's like, how hard is it

745
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 1: to think like that? You know, my neighbor is my neighbor,

746
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: and if something did happen here, I would have to

747
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: defend him and he'd have to defend me. So why

748
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: not just be neighborly with each other, you know, and

749
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,399
Speaker 1: instead of against each other. You know, I'm gonna come

750
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: tread across your front lawn. If you have a flag

751
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: on it, I promise you I will walk across it. Okay,

752
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 1: put it up there, I'll walk across it. If you're

753
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: my neighbor, I don't care. What are you gonna do?

754
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: You know? I just I'm over that polarization of against

755
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 1: one another. As as Americans. I don't want to gnaw

756
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,240
Speaker 1: our leg off anymore. We're not in a trap putting

757
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: on on your leg, you know, as a people. Not

758
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:45,399
Speaker 1: how I wanted to like kind of wind down our

759
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: our our episode of frustration. But you know, well, I

760
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: was writing this book, I had this sort of fantasy,

761
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: what would happen if Republicans and Democrats could be put

762
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: or some representative sample could be put in a room

763
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: with some all knowing mediator who could basically take the

764
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: two partisan narratives around Benghazi, of which both are have

765
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: a substantial amount of wrong and false material in them,

766
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 1: and understand where and be exposed isn't the right word,

767
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 1: but maybe it is to understand what if it is

768
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: true and what if it isn't true? And I think

769
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: that both sides would feel vindicated about some things and

770
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: completely deflated on others, and it would be a productive exercise.

771
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 1: But we can't. You know. Catharsis like, okay, well, you

772
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 1: know that the other side is recognized that we're we

773
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 1: were right about this, but we have to take that

774
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,399
Speaker 1: take on the fact that we were wrong about that.

775
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 1: I mean, this is the kind of truth and reconciliation

776
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 1: process that we encourage other countries which we think are

777
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 1: less developed than we are self awareness. But the problem is,

778
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: of course, that it's increasingly unlikely that we could get

779
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: to something like that because of the polarization, which in

780
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: fact was was spurred on by by Benghazi itself. You know,

781
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: you can't if you're so stuck in your silo. Nothing

782
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 1: will penetrate, you know, the idea of but it's been

783
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,240
Speaker 1: done before. You know, it's not it's not a hopeless

784
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 1: And I think the alternative to this is just the

785
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,240
Speaker 1: United States spiraling into a shadow of its formal self.

786
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: So we have to find some way to to block

787
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: and and uh and overcome these uh domestic political warfare

788
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: so unhealthy, you know. And I just want to say,

789
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: I just want to say, Ethan, you know, very cool conversation,

790
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: all right. I know we've been tricking about an hour

791
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: now talking And to my listener who's been listening this

792
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: whole time, thank you for being a part of our conversation.

793
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 1: And and Ethan, I I just know there's so much

794
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: more knowledge, you know, the fact that you speak Farsi

795
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: and that you know that whole theater over there so well.

796
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: I would love to maybe reach out to you in

797
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: another time. And and maybe let's get Gloria a shout out, okay,

798
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: because she is a boss. All right, Your friend Gloria

799
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: reached out to me and says you need to have

800
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: him on your show. And I was like, Gloria, you

801
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: keep sending me solid dudes like this, and I will

802
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: always open your email. Okay, there is no problem there, Gloria,

803
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: and I just want to give her a shout out.

804
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: I don't think I said her name enough. Gloria, and

805
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: thank thank you. I really appreciate having me on. And

806
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: uh it's been a pleasure. Well, thank you. Tell me

807
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,439
Speaker 1: the name of your book from your mouth one more time,

808
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 1: BEng Ghazzi, A new history of the fiasco that pushed

809
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 1: America at its world to the brink. I should memorize

810
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 1: it so I can say it a little faster. And

811
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 1: with that, I want to say thank you to former

812
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 1: diplomat Ethan Shor for being a part of soft Rep

813
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 1: Radio with me today and I am rad and happy

814
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: tenure anniversary to Software and a humble anniversary to the

815
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: Benghazi and nine eleven, two thousand one tragedy. So thank

816
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,839
Speaker 1: you for being a part of Software Radio and I

817
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: look forward to talking to you again. Peace, you've been

818
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: listening to sp up your idea.