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Speaker 1: You're listening to Alive Again, a production of Psycopia Pictures

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Speaker 1: and iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: If you give in to a bully, you become a victim.

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Speaker 2: I'm not a victim. I'm a survivor and I'm going

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Speaker 2: to fight for this until I stop talking, because I

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Speaker 2: don't believe that we have to give up to evil.

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Speaker 2: The only way we can fight it is to resist it.

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Speaker 2: Ten percent of people are really nice and ten percent

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Speaker 2: are pretty shitty and nasty. Unfortunately, eighty percent are sheep.

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Speaker 2: It's a sheep who scare me. The sheep will allow

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Speaker 2: a dictator to rise. The sheep will stand by and

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Speaker 2: let Hitler do what he did, whereas a good person

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Speaker 2: might have to actually stand up and do something.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Alive Again a podcast that showcases miraculous accounts

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Speaker 1: of human fragility and resilience from people his lives were

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Speaker 1: forever altered after having almost died. These are first hand

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Speaker 1: accounts of near death experiences and more broadly, brushes with death.

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Speaker 1: Our mission is simple, find, explore, and share these stories

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Speaker 1: to remind us all of our shared human condition. Please

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Speaker 1: keep in mind these stories are true and maybe triggering

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Speaker 1: for some listener and discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, basically, I come from Transylvania, which is

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Speaker 2: that little enclave between Hungary and Romania that keep changing ownership.

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Speaker 2: You know, I come from an unusual family because my

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Speaker 2: mother was a Catholic and my father was a jew.

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Speaker 2: My father had a very large Jewish family and my

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Speaker 2: mother was a staunch Catholic family. So you can imagine

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Speaker 2: how happy they were. But my parents didn't care. It

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Speaker 2: was a love match and you know, for the or

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Speaker 2: time they had together, they were very happy. For those days,

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Speaker 2: they were very well off. My mother was a dressmaker.

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Speaker 2: People used to you know, people used to buy dresses

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Speaker 2: not in her shop. They would buy a piece of

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Speaker 2: cloth and go and have it manufactured by a dressmaker.

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Speaker 2: My mother had forty girls working for her, so it

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Speaker 2: was a big business. And you know, we had everything

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Speaker 2: that you know, you could buy in those days. We

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Speaker 2: didn't have a car, but everything else. We had a telephone,

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Speaker 2: which most people didn't, and a beautiful apartment. My father

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Speaker 2: had a wholesale fish business. There was a river that

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Speaker 2: went through town and he had great, big crates of

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Speaker 2: live carp in the river which he would wholesale. And

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Speaker 2: I remember as a little girl. There was always a

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Speaker 2: carp swimming in our bath. My daddy was my hero.

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Speaker 2: He was tall, dark and handsome and always had a

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Speaker 2: white silk scarf, and he was very flamboyant, and I

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Speaker 2: mean think, I think today I would consider him over

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Speaker 2: the top. But he would burst into the room singing

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Speaker 2: opera at the top of his voice, and he would

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Speaker 2: pick me up and dance around with me and throw

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Speaker 2: me around. And my mother was a disciplinarian. She was

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Speaker 2: a hard working one that kept telling him off, Now,

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Speaker 2: behave yourself. That's no way to bring up a child,

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Speaker 2: you know, that sort of thing. But daddy and I

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Speaker 2: were very, very close. I adored him. My mother converted

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Speaker 2: to Judaism to please my father's family, but we never

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Speaker 2: did anything very much in terms of religion at home.

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Speaker 2: I remember my mother would light Campbell's on a Friday night.

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Speaker 2: She had a scarf and she would mutter things in

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Speaker 2: a foreign tongue, and I thought she was doing magic.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't quite sure what she was doing. I was

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Speaker 2: waiting for something to happen, you know. And that's about

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Speaker 2: the only Jewish religion I remember in the house. But

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Speaker 2: they always let me have a Christmas tree because I

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Speaker 2: love Christmas and they didn't want to deprive me. So

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Speaker 2: we had these tall, tall Christmas trees. We had very

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Speaker 2: tall ceilings, and you know, they used to have little

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Speaker 2: clips with real candles, and then there was candy on

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Speaker 2: the tree instead of decorations. There was lots of candy

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Speaker 2: and lots of tinsel and candles, and every Christmas we

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Speaker 2: had a fire. I still have a tree every Christmas,

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Speaker 2: but no more candles. Now it's now it's lights boring.

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Speaker 2: But there you go. In those days, in their sort

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Speaker 2: of naive I wouldn't call it snobbery, but their ambition

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Speaker 2: to bring up a lady. They decided that we had

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Speaker 2: to do what the very rich people did, and they

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Speaker 2: got me a governess from Austria who spoke beautiful German.

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Speaker 2: And she arrived, tall lady with a bun, and I

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Speaker 2: don't think she had any lips, because I don't remember

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Speaker 2: her smiling, as she had a sort of slash for

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Speaker 2: a mouth. And she was so strict. I had to

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Speaker 2: have heart boiled eggs under my armpits so I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: wave my arms the table. Never any elbows on the table.

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Speaker 2: And if you think you had to wash your hands

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Speaker 2: a lot during COVID, nothing compared to what this woman

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Speaker 2: made me do. She was one of these maniacs about

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Speaker 2: cleanliness next to godliness. You know, God forbid anybody should

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Speaker 2: should not wash every five minutes. Every five minutes, I

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Speaker 2: had to wash my hands, wash my face, and walking

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Speaker 2: in all weather because it's healthy, you know, healthy body,

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Speaker 2: healthy mind. Snow, sleet, rain, it doesn't matter. She would

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Speaker 2: drag me out and walk me. But you know, that

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Speaker 2: was her and there was nothing I could do about it.

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Speaker 2: She also wouldn't let me play with the children in

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Speaker 2: the street anymore. In those days, you used to run

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Speaker 2: outside and play until it got dark and then come in.

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Speaker 2: And she wouldn't let me do that because those kids

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Speaker 2: were not the right kids. They were not rich, you know.

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Speaker 2: I was only allowed to play with one little boy

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Speaker 2: who lived down the road. It was very cute. He

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Speaker 2: had curly blonde hair and big blue eyes. His name

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Speaker 2: was Ishtvan Stefan Ishtranko. It's his sort of nickname. You know.

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Speaker 2: We chase each other and catch each other, and every

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Speaker 2: time I caught him, I kissed him and he hated it,

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Speaker 2: and I loved it, and I learned to run really

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Speaker 2: fast because I loved that little boy and I tormented

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Speaker 2: him a lot. Then my parents decided to send me

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Speaker 2: to a Jewish kindergarten two mornings a week to let

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Speaker 2: me know something about my heritage. I don't remember much

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Speaker 2: about it. They told me that I was Jewish, and

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Speaker 2: I remember looking at my skin and looking at other

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Speaker 2: people in the street, and I couldn't see any difference.

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Speaker 2: I didn't really understand what it meant to be Jewish

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Speaker 2: because I looked the same, you know, I looked the

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Speaker 2: same as before, and I looked like other people. The

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Speaker 2: little boy was there too, Ishtuan was there, but unfortunately

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Speaker 2: he didn't make it. He never came home. Frequently I'm

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Speaker 2: asked by kids, how come Jews agreed to go to camps. Well,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't like that. It wasn't a sudden thing. It

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Speaker 2: was a slow erosion of our freedoms. They started taking

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Speaker 2: our rights away. First. Jews couldn't couldn't go to college anymore,

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Speaker 2: couldn't teach in a college, couldn't go to high school anymore,

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Speaker 2: couldn't even go to elementary school US it was a

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Speaker 2: Jewish school. Jewish doctors could no longer treat non Jews.

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Speaker 2: My first inkling of antisemitism was the fact that I

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Speaker 2: could no longer sit on my favorite park bench because

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Speaker 2: that wasn't a Jew bench. Jews had a separate bench

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Speaker 2: with a yellow stripe on it that said Jew, and

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Speaker 2: we were allowed to sit on that bench, but no

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Speaker 2: other benches. And I used to go to the park

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Speaker 2: with the nanny, and I used to go to the

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Speaker 2: swimming pool with my daddy, and none of that was

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Speaker 2: allowed anymore. No movie houses, no restaurants, no theaters. Jews

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Speaker 2: couldn't go anywhere. You know, we were complete lean ostracized.

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Speaker 2: Then the mood started changing, you know, there was all

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Speaker 2: this talk in the background, and kids pick up on things.

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Speaker 2: People started talking and started saying things like should maybe

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Speaker 2: we should leave what's happening. So and so isn't allowed

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Speaker 2: to go to college anymore, and so and so who's

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Speaker 2: a lawyer is no longer allowed to practice. And people

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Speaker 2: started to worry, and but we weren't that worried. The

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Speaker 2: Hungarian Jews were very assimilated. We were very faithful, patriotic Hungarians.

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Speaker 2: We loved the culture, we loved the language, loved the food.

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Speaker 2: We were Hungarians. We've been there for hundreds of years,

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Speaker 2: and nobody imagined that anything would happen to us. We

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Speaker 2: started hearing about concentration camps. We couldn't believe that something

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Speaker 2: like that could happen. Germany, the most cultured country in

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Speaker 2: the world, would not allow something like that to happen.

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Speaker 2: And anyway, we're Hungarians. I mean, come on, Hungarians, what

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Speaker 2: are they They're going to kill her own people who

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Speaker 2: are Hungarians. Then a new law came that no women

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Speaker 2: under the age of forty five could work in a

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Speaker 2: Jewish home, so a lot of the girls who worked

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Speaker 2: for my mother were gone. And then my mother said

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Speaker 2: to me, you know, I have a present for you.

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Speaker 2: And she brought out this beautiful yellow star made of

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Speaker 2: gold material and she sewed it onto my coat. I

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Speaker 2: remember it was a little blue coat. And she says,

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Speaker 2: let's go get some pastries. And she's holding my hand

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Speaker 2: and we're going down the street and I'm sort of

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Speaker 2: hopping alongside her, and a man comes opposite and he

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Speaker 2: looks at me, and I look up at him, sort

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Speaker 2: of expecting a nice compliment about my new star, and

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Speaker 2: he spits in my face and the spit runs down

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Speaker 2: my cheek onto my star, and I say to my mother,

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Speaker 2: he hates stars, never thinking it's me. And my mother

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Speaker 2: would normally be very feisty, would take me by the

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Speaker 2: hand and yell at the man. Doesn't do anything. She

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Speaker 2: grabs me and she starts dragging me home. She says,

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Speaker 2: we're going home. We're going home. I'll tell you when

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Speaker 2: we get there. And I say, but but but the man.

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Speaker 2: She says, no, no, no, no, you don't understand. When

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Speaker 2: we get home, I'll explain. And we got home and

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Speaker 2: she says, no, darling, it's not it's not the star.

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Speaker 2: It's you. He hates. And I said, but why what

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Speaker 2: have I done? She says, you're a Jew? And I said, well,

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Speaker 2: if I didn't have this, would he know I'm a Jew?

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Speaker 2: And she says probably not. I said, so let's take

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Speaker 2: it off. She says, no, it's the law. You have

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Speaker 2: to have it. I had to wear the star if

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Speaker 2: I went outside. It was the law. I was not

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Speaker 2: allowed not to have it. Now you see, the Hungarians

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Speaker 2: didn't consider my mother Jewish because she wasn't Jewish by blood.

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Speaker 2: You were only Jewish by blood, not by not by religion.

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Speaker 2: So because my mother was although she was a convert.

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Speaker 2: She was not considered the Jew I was, so I

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Speaker 2: was supposed to wear the yellow star. She didn't have to.

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Speaker 2: And at this point, the Hungarian authorities were very sneaky,

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Speaker 2: and they had everybody go to the local police station

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Speaker 2: and register. They wanted to know where everybody lived so

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Speaker 2: they could protect us, you know, that's what they said.

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Speaker 2: And like good citizens, everybody went to the police station

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Speaker 2: and registered with them, telling them where we all lived

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Speaker 2: so they could find us easily, no problem. And they

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Speaker 2: started to build a ghetto. Now our town had one

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Speaker 2: hundred thousand people, thirty thousand were Jews, a third of

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Speaker 2: the town, which was a big, big amount, and they

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Speaker 2: decided to squeeze thirty thousand people into like three blocks,

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Speaker 2: you know, And there were like fifteen twenty people to

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Speaker 2: a room, and they were all in there waiting to

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Speaker 2: be taken somewhere, waiting for something to happen, and it

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Speaker 2: was getting very tight. And my mother wouldn't let me

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Speaker 2: go to the ghetto because she thought they wouldn't notice

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Speaker 2: one little girl missing. But my father had to go,

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Speaker 2: and I remember them saying goodbye. My mother and my

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Speaker 2: father were holding each other sobbing, and you know, I

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Speaker 2: kind of wormed my way between them because I wanted

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Speaker 2: to be part of everything. And I cried too, but

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Speaker 2: I wasn't that sad because I thought that it would

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Speaker 2: go on a business trip and bring presents like he

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Speaker 2: always did. And then he left. He had a coat

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Speaker 2: and a hat and a little bag and he went.

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Speaker 2: And my mother was inconsolable. She was sobbing and crying

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Speaker 2: and yelling, and oh, she was in a terrible state.

215
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Speaker 2: And then suddenly there was a lot of noise and

216
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,840
Speaker 2: I ran to the window because our apartment was up

217
00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,560
Speaker 2: one floor, and I looked down at the street, and

218
00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,319
Speaker 2: the street was covered in vehicles and trot and there

219
00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,000
Speaker 2: were soldiers everywhere in green uniforms to back feathers in

220
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Speaker 2: their hats, and they were dragging people out of their houses.

221
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,600
Speaker 2: They knew where every Jew lived, of course, they had

222
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Speaker 2: a list, and they all went from house to house

223
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,599
Speaker 2: systematically dragging people out and shoving them onto these vehicles,

224
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Speaker 2: and it was very brutal. People were stumbling and falling

225
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:27,760
Speaker 2: and getting kicked and getting whipped and getting prodded, and

226
00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,200
Speaker 2: suddenly everybody was taken away and they were all gone.

227
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:41,439
Speaker 2: And then there was silence and then my mother came

228
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Speaker 2: and she says, you're not allowed to be seen downstairs.

229
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,880
Speaker 2: You have to hide, and so she drags me upstairs,

230
00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:48,760
Speaker 2: and she says, you're not allowed to run in the

231
00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,600
Speaker 2: apartment because the neighbors downstairs can hear your footsteps, and

232
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Speaker 2: you can't play with your ball, and you have to

233
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Speaker 2: hide under the bed if anybody comes, and you can't

234
00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,560
Speaker 2: go near the window. And I hated it. It was like,

235
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:05,120
Speaker 2: you know, it was like being a prisoner. When people

236
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,400
Speaker 2: bought food in those days that weren't supermarkets, we used

237
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,320
Speaker 2: to go to the market once a week there was

238
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,960
Speaker 2: a big market, and the rest of the time the

239
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,880
Speaker 2: farmers would come into town with a horse and carriage

240
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,000
Speaker 2: and bring their produce and ring a bell and yell

241
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,160
Speaker 2: out what they had. And a young woman used to

242
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,400
Speaker 2: bring our milk. She had a horse and the carriage

243
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,720
Speaker 2: and she had big vats of milk at the back

244
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,440
Speaker 2: of the carriage, and we would come downstairs and she'd

245
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,080
Speaker 2: measure out the milk. She had been an orphan, and

246
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,160
Speaker 2: my mother heard that she was an orphan and she

247
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,880
Speaker 2: was poor. She made her a wedding dress. And it's

248
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,840
Speaker 2: this dress that saved my life. I was really saved

249
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,880
Speaker 2: by a wedding dress, because the girl never forgot and

250
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,200
Speaker 2: she heard the rounding up the Jews, and knowing my

251
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,840
Speaker 2: mother married a Jew, which was quite a scandal, she

252
00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,520
Speaker 2: came and she said, I would like to help you.

253
00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,360
Speaker 2: You've been so good to me. Where is your little girl?

254
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,120
Speaker 2: And my mother says, I'm hiding her. She said, no, no, no, no,

255
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,200
Speaker 2: no'll give her to me. I'll take her to my farm.

256
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,680
Speaker 2: She'll be much safer there. And my mother came to

257
00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:09,840
Speaker 2: me and she says, do you want to go to

258
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,440
Speaker 2: the farm. Her name was Elizabeth the girl, And I said, oh, yes,

259
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,360
Speaker 2: I wanted to go to the farm. I thought there'll

260
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,160
Speaker 2: be puppies and kittens and children to play with them.

261
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,560
Speaker 2: I hopped up on her carriage and there was a

262
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,240
Speaker 2: sort of a wooden bench. She will let me hold

263
00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,280
Speaker 2: the reins part of the way, and off I went.

264
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,720
Speaker 2: I was close to five years old by this time,

265
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,320
Speaker 2: and I was so proud of myself. I was having

266
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:36,760
Speaker 2: an adventure. Here. To this day, I can't understand how

267
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,240
Speaker 2: my mother had the courage to hand over her only

268
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,400
Speaker 2: spoiled child to this woman she hardly knew, and say,

269
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,560
Speaker 2: save my daughter. I don't think I could do it,

270
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,720
Speaker 2: and she just let me go. She let me go.

271
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:51,960
Speaker 2: What courage it took. I don't know whether it was

272
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,920
Speaker 2: despair or courage or the combination thereof, but I really

273
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,320
Speaker 2: thank god she did that, or I wouldn't be here.

274
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,040
Speaker 2: It was getting dark, and we got to her farm

275
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,520
Speaker 2: side of a hill. Her house was halfway up the hill.

276
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,360
Speaker 2: She had a vineyard there as well, and then she

277
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,200
Speaker 2: had cows and pigs and things, and then her through

278
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,520
Speaker 2: the gate. There was like a big gate made of

279
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,400
Speaker 2: bricks and wood, and through the gate to the left

280
00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,360
Speaker 2: was a small barn with two stalls, one for the

281
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,280
Speaker 2: horse and one for the cow, and with sort of

282
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,880
Speaker 2: a rickety staircase going up. And she takes me out

283
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,120
Speaker 2: of the cart and she says, you're staying here. I said,

284
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,080
Speaker 2: what do you mean I'm staying here? I want to

285
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:35,640
Speaker 2: go to your house. She says, no, no, no, you

286
00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,680
Speaker 2: don't understand there. You can't go to my house because

287
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,040
Speaker 2: people want to kill you. I looked at her, and

288
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,840
Speaker 2: you know, this idea of death is very alien. I mean,

289
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,480
Speaker 2: I know I'm going to die and my mom eighty five,

290
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,320
Speaker 2: but I never think of death. You know, other people die.

291
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,600
Speaker 2: I don't have time for that sort of thing. Well

292
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,520
Speaker 2: the death, Well, who's going to kill me? Why would

293
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,880
Speaker 2: they kill me? And I was arguing with her and

294
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,840
Speaker 2: having a tantruman, you know, tossing my head and banging around, saying,

295
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:04,879
Speaker 2: I don't want to stay in this smelly barn. I

296
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:06,720
Speaker 2: hated here. I want to go home to my mommy

297
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:08,880
Speaker 2: and my daddy. I hated it smell as I hated.

298
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,680
Speaker 2: And she says, no, my dear, you have to stay here.

299
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,399
Speaker 2: And she took me upstairs into this little dingy barn.

300
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,160
Speaker 2: It was full of hay. People used to throw hay

301
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,840
Speaker 2: up with a fork, not with the with the there

302
00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,600
Speaker 2: were no hay bales. And she takes me and she

303
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,720
Speaker 2: makes me a bed with some blankets, and she says,

304
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:29,600
Speaker 2: you have to stay here and I'll be back in

305
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,920
Speaker 2: the morning. She goes and she leaves me, and it's

306
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,120
Speaker 2: getting dark and there's rustling in the hay, and there's

307
00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,200
Speaker 2: big black spiders everywhere, big furry spiders, and I'm terrified,

308
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,640
Speaker 2: and it's getting darker and darker, and there's no electricity,

309
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:51,320
Speaker 2: and I remember crying myself to sleep. You can get

310
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,639
Speaker 2: used to things after a while. I stopped crying, and

311
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,040
Speaker 2: I even managed to amuse myself somehow. I was in

312
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,560
Speaker 2: this barn for three months, totally alone. Imagine your daughter

313
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,240
Speaker 2: being alone in a barn. And I raised four sons.

314
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,240
Speaker 2: I don't think I've kept them quiet more than five minutes.

315
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,080
Speaker 2: I was quiet for three months in this barn, and

316
00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,520
Speaker 2: I even got used to living alone. I mean, I

317
00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,520
Speaker 2: had no toys because she was afraid of having toys

318
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,360
Speaker 2: in the in the barn in case somebody found it.

319
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,240
Speaker 2: But I made dolls out of the hay and the straw.

320
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,520
Speaker 2: And I even made friends with the spiders. I mean

321
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,159
Speaker 2: they were not bad spiders, they were just big and ugly.

322
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,359
Speaker 2: But I caught one and I tied a string to

323
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,520
Speaker 2: his leg, and now I had a bat. I called

324
00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,119
Speaker 2: him Max, and I was very happy with Max, Max

325
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,199
Speaker 2: the spider. Then the leg came off, and then he

326
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,640
Speaker 2: scuttled off somewhere, and I felt so guilty. I thought

327
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,919
Speaker 2: I maimed Max. You know, I'm still looking for Max

328
00:18:51,160 --> 00:19:00,680
Speaker 2: this day. Very early one morning, I hear a commotion

329
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,719
Speaker 2: and I look through the cracks of the barn and

330
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,760
Speaker 2: there are three soldiers again in those green uniforms with

331
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,960
Speaker 2: the black feathers and they're slapping this poor Elizabeth around.

332
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:16,000
Speaker 2: They have big guns and bayonets and they're they're hitting her.

333
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 2: They said, where's the jew. We have information you're hiding

334
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,240
Speaker 2: a jew here. We want the jew. Where's the jew?

335
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,080
Speaker 2: And she says, there's no jew. She's crying. They said,

336
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,080
Speaker 2: no jew. Go out to my house and have a look.

337
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,719
Speaker 2: There's no jew here. So they run up to her

338
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,920
Speaker 2: house and they ransack it because they're angry that there's

339
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 2: nobody there, and they're breaking things and they throw furniture

340
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,199
Speaker 2: through the window and they break all her dishes, and

341
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,440
Speaker 2: they're furious because they can't find the jew. And they

342
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,560
Speaker 2: start running past the barn to get into their vehicle

343
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,399
Speaker 2: until one of them says, wait a minute, ah, let's

344
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,359
Speaker 2: look in the barn. Maybe there's a jew in the barn.

345
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 2: And they start coming up these stairs. And I scooched

346
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,040
Speaker 2: under the hay and I made my so really really

347
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,399
Speaker 2: very small, and I sort of curled up and I

348
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,600
Speaker 2: held my breath, but my heart was beating so loud.

349
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,639
Speaker 2: I was afraid they could hear it. It sounded like

350
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,920
Speaker 2: a drum, you know. And I tried to quiet my heart,

351
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,120
Speaker 2: and it was very difficult, and I had my eyes

352
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,919
Speaker 2: shut tight, because when you're scared, you think if you

353
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,680
Speaker 2: don't look at them, they don't see you. And they

354
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,399
Speaker 2: kept coming closer and closer, and they were using the

355
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,960
Speaker 2: bayonets to rifle through the hay and stab the hay,

356
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 2: and they got closer and closer, and then I hear

357
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,679
Speaker 2: a thumb. Then I open an eye and there's a

358
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,760
Speaker 2: big black boot next to my face and the bayonet

359
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:44,360
Speaker 2: comes down one inch from this cheek and he stabs

360
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 2: it really hard in the wood and then he pulls

361
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 2: it out. I still remember the noise it made as

362
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,160
Speaker 2: it came out of the wood, and I think that's

363
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,480
Speaker 2: when I realized what it means to die. And I think,

364
00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 2: really my childhood ended that day, because my golden childhood

365
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 2: was gone. I remember Elizabeth came and she says, it's okay,

366
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,399
Speaker 2: they're gone. They didn't find you. You're fine. I couldn't

367
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 2: stand up, I couldn't eat, I couldn't do anything for

368
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,119
Speaker 2: a whole day. My feet wouldn't hold me up. I

369
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 2: was so terrified. And then my poor mother was arrested

370
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,119
Speaker 2: because they found out that I was on the list.

371
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,720
Speaker 2: But I wasn't in the ghetto. Somebody told them and

372
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 2: she was imprisoned for two days at the local gendarmerie,

373
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 2: you know, and they tortured her. And she never told

374
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 2: me what they did to her because she said it

375
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,440
Speaker 2: was far too humiliating. It must have been gang rape

376
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,959
Speaker 2: or something. She was a pretty young woman. She managed

377
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 2: to bribe one of the soldiers to take her home.

378
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 2: She said she had some gold coins and she would

379
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 2: let him have the gold coins if he let her go.

380
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 2: And she even managed to smuggle my father out of

381
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,679
Speaker 2: the ghetto, and he was going to walk across the

382
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 2: room other border was close by and escape, and he

383
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 2: told my mother that before he went to Romania, he

384
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 2: had to come and see me. He said, I'm not

385
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,640
Speaker 2: leaving without saying goodbye to the child because she depends

386
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 2: on me and we're so close. I want her to

387
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,919
Speaker 2: know that I'm coming back as a father. You know

388
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 2: what he meant, you know, he wanted to say goodbye.

389
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 2: He wanted to explain to me, and my mother kept

390
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 2: asking him not to, but he wouldn't listen. And he

391
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,199
Speaker 2: came walking to the farm late at night, and he

392
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 2: got to the farm at midnight and there was someone

393
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 2: behind the gate waiting for him, and they arrested him

394
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 2: and he was on the first transport out of town

395
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 2: to Auschwitz. And then one day my mother came and

396
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,360
Speaker 2: she was so happy. She says, the war started. Can

397
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 2: you imagine being happy about the war starting. And she says,

398
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 2: we're going home. You can come home to our apartment.

399
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 2: And she says, the Russians are going to come and

400
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,400
Speaker 2: they'll be fine, and Daddy will come home. And we all, well,

401
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 2: we can go home now. And we said goodbye to

402
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,679
Speaker 2: Elizabeth and she was waving a handkerchief at the end

403
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 2: of her driveway, and she and my mother were crying,

404
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 2: but I wasn't crying. I was so happy to be

405
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 2: going home. And we went home to our apartment. But

406
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 2: there were bombs every hour. There was an air raid.

407
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:22,919
Speaker 2: You know, these horrible noises, that horrible we sound, you know,

408
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: it's a horrible sound. And the air raids were almost

409
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 2: every hour, and eventually we even stopped going into the

410
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,879
Speaker 2: cellar because there was no point. I mean that you

411
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 2: couldn't really escape even if you if you were in

412
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 2: the cellar, if you had a hit, the house would fall.

413
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 2: And there was the house three buildings of where a

414
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,640
Speaker 2: house was hit, and it must have been a gambling casino,

415
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 2: because I remember it was raining playing cards. The whole

416
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 2: street was covered in playing cards. I never forget that

417
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 2: it was raining playing cards. We were so hungry. There

418
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 2: was no fuel, there was no food, there was no

419
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 2: ill tricity in it was cold, and we were very,

420
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 2: very miserable, and we were very hungry. And I remember

421
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 2: looking out the window and seeing a horse in the

422
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 2: carriage go past the house. And suddenly the horse stumbled

423
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 2: and fell right in front of our front door, and

424
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 2: the guy got out of the cart and starts kicking

425
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 2: the animal, but it's definitely dead, so he unhitches the

426
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 2: cart and pulls it away and leaves the carcass there.

427
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 2: And within minutes windows and doors open. People run out

428
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 2: with dishes and knives and start dismembering this dead horse.

429
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 2: And it was cold, and I remember they pulled the

430
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 2: hide off. There was steam coming out, and within an

431
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 2: hour there was nothing left of this horse except the hide,

432
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 2: a few hoofs, and a few guts. Everything was taken

433
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 2: away to be eaten, even the bones. We made soup

434
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 2: and we ate this horse. And you know, the whole

435
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 2: block of apartments that's how it survived that whole time

436
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 2: we ate this one poor dead horse. Hunger is not like, well,

437
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 2: you know, I haven't had anything to eat for a

438
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 2: few days. Hunger becomes an obsession. All you can think

439
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 2: about is food. You look in rawers to see if

440
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 2: somebody forgot a cookie or a piece of bread, and

441
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 2: all you can think about is food, foods, And your

442
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 2: head hurts, and your light headed, and your breast smells,

443
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,239
Speaker 2: and your stomach hurts, and you can hardly stand up,

444
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 2: and all you can all you can think is food, food, food.

445
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 2: I no longer look at food as food. I think

446
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 2: of it as something much much bigger than that. You know,

447
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: it's it's life. You respect it, and you don't throw

448
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: it away. You cherish it. And the same goes for water,

449
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 2: because we didn't have water either. I remember they stopped bombing,

450
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 2: and then the Russians started coming across the frozen river,

451
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 2: which we could see from our window. They were coming

452
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 2: down the frozen embankment, linking arms, singing across the frozen river,

453
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 2: up on this embankment and being machine gunned, and they

454
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 2: were coming in waves and waves and waves and dying

455
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 2: in waves. They must have been drunk. Nobody's that brave,

456
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 2: and they were singing and coming, and there were so

457
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 2: many of them, hundreds of them being mowed down. And

458
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: eventually there were so many corpses in front of our

459
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 2: house you couldn't see the river anymore. And suddenly we

460
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 2: were on the Russian occupation. Well, they were not warm

461
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: and fuzzy, like my mother said, not at all. They

462
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 2: were raping and robbing, and they were very brutal. And

463
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 2: my mother and some of the women were hiding in

464
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 2: a false room that she built, and they were terrified,

465
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 2: you know, they were terrified. They couldn't go out because

466
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 2: they were being molested and raped and killed. And so

467
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 2: my mother at this point decided to take matters in

468
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 2: her hand, because you know, somebody had to do something,

469
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 2: and she decided to go and visit the local commander.

470
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 2: But she couldn't go out looking the way she did

471
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 2: because she was young and pretty. So she made herself

472
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: look old. She put on an old gray dress and

473
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 2: put a pillow under the dress on her back to

474
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 2: make herself look like she had a hunchback, and she

475
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 2: put on an old scarf, and she blackened her teeth,

476
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 2: and she drew lines on her face. She put on

477
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 2: an old scarf and an old cane and pretended to

478
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: be a very old woman, and she walked very carefully

479
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 2: to the local commander. To her surprise, the local commander

480
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 2: was a young woman. By this time, the Russians lost

481
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 2: so many people in the war that they were promoting

482
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 2: young women and young men to high positions. And to

483
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 2: my mother's surprise, this woman was a young pretty woman.

484
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,360
Speaker 2: And through the interpreter, she said to her, and come

485
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 2: to my house. I'm a dressmaker. I'll make your lovely dress.

486
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 2: This uniform doesn't do it for you. It's not pretty,

487
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 2: but I can make you look very nice. And the

488
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 2: woman came, and my mother unhooked a drape from one

489
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 2: of the windows and put it on her. And suddenly,

490
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 2: oh my god, this woman was delighted. And she brought

491
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 2: some other soldier girls Russian once and suddenly we had food.

492
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 2: We had lots of food. We had a chicken and

493
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 2: bread and butter, even some chocolate. And we all got

494
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: very ill, because when you've been starving, you're not supposed

495
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 2: to eat. We almost died just eating. We couldn't stop eating,

496
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: because when you haven't eaten for a long time, all

497
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 2: you want to do is eat everything you can see,

498
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: and we got very sick. But eventually it all calmed

499
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 2: down and we started to eat normally, but we still

500
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 2: couldn't go out. So my mother said to the Russians, listen,

501
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: can you possibly give us a guard? So they gave

502
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 2: us two guards. Two people came. One of them was

503
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: called Evan. He was a tall kid, can't have been

504
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: more than seventeen tall, skinny, blonde kid. He was a

505
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 2: captain by this time, and his psychic was an elderly

506
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: gentleman who played the accordion them. And these two were

507
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 2: constantly drunk, constantly drunk. They drank anything they could lay

508
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 2: their hands. And they arrived with big bottles of vodka,

509
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 2: and then they proceeded to drink my mother's cologne and

510
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 2: some methylated spirits they found in the kitchen. They drank that.

511
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: But they were they were happy drunks. You know, there's

512
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 2: two kinds of drunks. These guys were happy drunks, and

513
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: I loved them. They were great fun for me because

514
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: all they did was they was They were very unruly.

515
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 2: They were taking potshots at the moldings on the wall.

516
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 2: They burnt our antique furniture for heat. My mother disapproved,

517
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: but I was very happy with them. They they were

518
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 2: very nice to me. Anyway, One day I got sick

519
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 2: and then Ivan brought me a gift, and I remember

520
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: lying there in bed. I had a sore throat or something,

521
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 2: had a high fever, and he gave me the sparcel

522
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 2: in white paper and I opened it up and it

523
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,719
Speaker 2: was like the rising sun. It was an orange. I

524
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: had never seen an orange before because people didn't import food,

525
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 2: and I read about them in books. I knew about oranges,

526
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: but I hadn't seen one. And that wonderful smell it

527
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 2: had it was magical. And then my mother opened it

528
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 2: up and gave me some and she candied the rest.

529
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 2: And I could only eat it when I was sick,

530
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 2: and I wanted to be sick all the time so

531
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 2: I could eat the orange. And to this day there's

532
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 2: always an orange in my house. It's my security blanket.

533
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: You have no idea what an orange meant to a

534
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 2: child who had been starving. It was magical. And then

535
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 2: for some reason, the Russians left the town. The garrison

536
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: was moved out, and life started returning to normal, but

537
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 2: it wasn't very nice. It was kind of sad, and

538
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 2: my mother had very little business. We were waiting for

539
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 2: something to happen, and we heard all about concentration camps,

540
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 2: but we didn't believe it. We thought it was Communist

541
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: proper guns, because we couldn't believe the German, in the

542
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 2: most cultured country in the world, would allow hitler. You know, Nah,

543
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 2: we didn't believe it. She thought the Jews were just

544
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 2: taken to a work camp. And then she comes and

545
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 2: she says, listen, there's three trains coming back from those

546
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: work camps, and daddy's going to come home. And she

547
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 2: got me all dressed up, and she washed my hair

548
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: and she did her her hair up, and we went

549
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: all dressed up. We went to the railway station. We're

550
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 2: standing on the platform holding up a picture of my father,

551
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: like this, have you seen this man? Have you seen

552
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,719
Speaker 2: this man? Have you seen this man? We're standing there

553
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,959
Speaker 2: holding the picture, and the train empties and there's no daddy.

554
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: So we go home crying, and my mom says, well,

555
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: he'll be on the next train. He's coming back. Don't worry,

556
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 2: he'll be back. So we went back the next day

557
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 2: holding up the picture, waiting for daddy, and people start

558
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 2: coming off the train, and they scare me because they

559
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: don't look human. They are dressed in rags and they

560
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 2: have no hair, and they have swords all over, and

561
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 2: they smell bad, and they don't walk. They shuffle. And

562
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 2: my mother starts gathering these people and bringing them to

563
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: our house and washing them and giving them clothes, her

564
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: clothes to the women. And my father's close to the men.

565
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 2: And these people are sitting around in our house telling

566
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 2: us horrible stories. And I didn't know what to think.

567
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: And then we went back on the third day, the

568
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 2: third train, and we're holding up the picture and waiting

569
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: for Daddy. Then the man comes up to my mother

570
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 2: and says, don't wait for him. He's dead. She says,

571
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 2: what do you mean he's dead? Well, I saw his body,

572
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 2: She says, well, what happened? Was he sick? I don't know.

573
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 2: I saw his body. I can tell you he's dead.

574
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 2: Don't wait for him. She doesn't want to believe it,

575
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: but she takes this poor man home and she says

576
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 2: to him, how do you know who I am? Who

577
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 2: are you? And he says, don't you recognize me? He

578
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 2: was a very close friend of my parents, but he

579
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 2: was in such bad shape. He was beaten so hard

580
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: that my mother didn't recognize him. He used to own

581
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 2: a coffeehouse with a hotel attached where my parents used

582
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 2: to play cards every Sunday night. And he was also

583
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 2: a violinist, and they broke all his fingers, so he

584
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 2: had hands like claws. Really scared me, and eventually, when

585
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 2: I was about nine, he told me how my father died.

586
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 2: My father and another man stole a piece of bread

587
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 2: in the camp they were starving, and they were found out.

588
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 2: So the commander decided to make an example of these

589
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 2: two men and took them to the front of the

590
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 2: big field where the prisoners used to have to line

591
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:08,280
Speaker 2: up every morning to be counted, and they it was cold.

592
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 2: They stripped these two men and they beat them with

593
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 2: iron bars, breaking most of their bones, and put each

594
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 2: of them in a dog kennel in this field and

595
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: left them there to die in front of these people

596
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: as an example. And it took my father's two days

597
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 2: and the night to die in agony. When I heard this,

598
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 2: I became completely obsessed with violence and hatred. All I

599
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 2: wanted to do was kill someone. I was a kid,

600
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 2: but I was reading books about how to stab, how

601
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 2: to poison, how to suffocate. I just wanted to kill, kill, kill,

602
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 2: And it took me fifty years to stop hating. I

603
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 2: managed to empty my heart of hatred, because when you're

604
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,399
Speaker 2: full of hatred, there's no room for anything else. And

605
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 2: I don't hate anymore. I don't hate at a People

606
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 2: say to me, well, have you forgiven? That's another problem

607
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 2: I have. I can forgive anything that happens to me.

608
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 2: Whatever you do to me, I can forgive you. But

609
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 2: I don't have the right to forgive for my father's death.

610
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 2: He's the only one who can forgive. For his death.

611
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 2: I cannot forgive. And I always tell my boys, if

612
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 2: anybody kills me and you forgive them, I'll haunt you

613
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 2: because you don't forgive on my behalf. But I don't hate.

614
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 2: And you know, people say to me, well, what's your religion?

615
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,959
Speaker 2: I said, I suppose it's love. I'm a Christmas Jew.

616
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: I always have a tree. But I truly believe that

617
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 2: the only thing we can do is go ahead and

618
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 2: try and not repeat it. And I'm a very happy person,

619
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 2: believe it or not. You know, I have four sons,

620
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: and every time I gave birth to one of them.

621
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 2: It was giving the finger to Hitler. I have four

622
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 2: granddaughters and they range in ethnicity half Chinese, half Mexican,

623
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 2: half African American. I even have one who's half German.

624
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 2: When my eldest son got married to a very nice

625
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 2: Canadian actress, he came and told me about her. I

626
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 2: was overjoyed. He says, it's a slight problem. I said,

627
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 2: what can there be? He says, well, her father was

628
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 2: a German army sergeant. I said, I swallowed, and I

629
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 2: swallowed again, and then I thought, no, we don't visit

630
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 2: the sense of the father and the children. We don't.

631
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 2: And she became my daughter in law. And I remember

632
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 2: holding their little daughter in my arms when she was born, beautiful,

633
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 2: beautiful baby, and the tears were just pouring, and I

634
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 2: was thinking, here's the grandchild of a perpetrator and the victim,

635
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 2: and she's perfect. And this is how life has to

636
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 2: go forward. This is what we need to do. We

637
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 2: don't go back. We go forward. We love these children

638
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: and we try and change the world, but we don't

639
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 2: go back. We stop the hatred to stop it right here.

640
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: I survived, and that's an incredible, incredible success to be alive.

641
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 2: And when you think of like Elizabeth, not only did

642
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 2: she save me, but she saved the whole generation, my

643
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 2: sons and my grandchildren. And my son David just has

644
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 2: a little boy recently. He is two years old and

645
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 2: they're expecting a little girl in September. So in fact,

646
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 2: it's ten fingers to hit or just four. If you

647
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,879
Speaker 2: give in to a bully, you become a victim. I'm

648
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 2: not a victim. I'm a survivor, and I'm going to

649
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 2: fight for this until I stop talking, because I don't

650
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: believe that we have to give up to evil. The

651
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 2: only way we can fight it is to resist it

652
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 2: and to try and do good. And you know, ten

653
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 2: percent of people are really nice and ten percent are

654
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 2: pretty shitty and nasty. Unfortunately, sheep, it's a sheep who

655
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: scare me. The sheep will allow a dictator to rise.

656
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 2: A sheep will stand by and let Hitler do what

657
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 2: he did. A sheep will stand by and do nothing,

658
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 2: whereas a good person might have to actually stand up

659
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 2: and do something. There was a wonderful man that I

660
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 2: was listening to some lectures. His name was Ben Ferens.

661
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: He was one of the prosecutors in Nuremberg when they

662
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: put the Nazis on trial. He was the youngest prosecutor ever.

663
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 2: He was a young immigrant. He was telling on one

664
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 2: of his lectures. He was talking about his father who

665
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,720
Speaker 2: came to this country and he was a simple man,

666
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: a shoemaker or something, and he would sit his two

667
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 2: children down at the dinner table, young children, and he

668
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: would say to them, what have you done for humanity today?

669
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 2: They had to do something good every day for humanity.

670
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 2: They had to open a door for somebody, pick up

671
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 2: some trash, feed the dog, help an old lady across

672
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 2: the street. I tell children in school, please do something

673
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 2: good every day too. You don't have to save everybody's

674
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 2: life like Elizabeth saved mind. But you can go and

675
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 2: sit with that kid that nobody wants to talk to.

676
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 2: Look at that sad child. He might have a very

677
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 2: heavy baggage. We all have baggages on our backs. We

678
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 2: all have some tragedy we're carrying around. And if we

679
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,399
Speaker 2: could only be a little bit kinder to each other,

680
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 2: this whole world could change. And it's up to this

681
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 2: generation to change the world, because is so much better

682
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 2: than the one before. These kids get it they get it,

683
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,800
Speaker 2: and they know that if they don't stop banning books,

684
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 2: and if they don't stop banning rights of people and

685
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 2: banning women's rights and banning voting rights, if they don't

686
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 2: try and stop that, their world will go to hell.

687
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 2: And it's up to them to create a better world.

688
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 2: And I think they will do it because nobody else

689
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 2: is going to do it for them. As far as

690
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 2: I'm concerned, as long as I have breath, I will

691
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 2: go and keep talking. It's hard, because you know, it's

692
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 2: a long way to school and then I speak for

693
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 2: an hour an hour and a half. I take questions,

694
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 2: but I do it almost every day. Everybody says I

695
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 2: suffer from terminal optimism. I do. But I think it's

696
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 2: going to be okay, and my little grandchildren will have

697
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 2: a good life because these young people today will fight

698
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 2: for it.

699
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: Welcome back, This is Alive again, joining me for a

700
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,760
Speaker 1: conversation about today's story or my other Alive against story.

701
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 1: Producers Kate Sweeney, Nicholas Takowski, and Brent Day, and I'm

702
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: your host, Dan bush Nick.

703
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 3: How did you come across Kathy Preston.

704
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 4: I went up and worked for her theater company in

705
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 4: Center Barnstead, New Hampshire, when I was twenty four years old.

706
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 3: Oh really, yeah.

707
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 4: She and her husband Gordon, who is a delightful sort

708
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 4: of prickly, very funny British man, they had they started

709
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 4: a theater company and they did educational theater tours and

710
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 4: I was in one of their touring companies. Kathy, for

711
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 4: some reason took a particular interest in me. I would

712
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 4: literally be down in the kitchen with the other actors

713
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 4: in this giant farmhouse that we were all staying in

714
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 4: in New Hampshire in the dead of winter, and we

715
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 4: would hear through the events upstairs Kathy from the office, Hello, Hello,

716
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 4: can you hear me? And we would all get quiet

717
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 4: and we go yeah, and you go, is Nick down there?

718
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 4: I go, yes, he goes Nick Darling. Could you come

719
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 4: and bring me a coffee?

720
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am.

721
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 4: And I would go and poor coffee and walk it

722
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 4: up to her, and it was just like it became

723
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 4: kind of a joke in the company. But I had

724
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 4: a health scare while I was up there. I won't

725
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 4: go into it too much, but she ended up driving

726
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 4: me to the hospital in Conquered which was like an

727
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 4: hour away, and while we were driving she told me

728
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 4: this story, and I think, just through this, through just

729
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 4: the drive and through like you know, running her coffee

730
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 4: or you know, doing her bidding for her. I felt

731
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 4: very close to her. At one point she even said, like,

732
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 4: you know, Nick, I think that in a different life,

733
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 4: I was probably a mother or something.

734
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:07,439
Speaker 2: She has the.

735
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 4: Most immense, kind, but very like pointed presence. She has

736
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 4: no bullshit. She is who she says she is. She

737
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 4: shows you that she's very patient with people, but at

738
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 4: the same time she does not suffer fools or bullshit.

739
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 4: To sort of, in that brief time, be like an

740
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 4: object of her affection. Feels like one of the great

741
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 4: gifts of my life that this incredible force of nature

742
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 4: could love me. And it was weird because I was

743
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 4: in a time in my life where I did not

744
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 4: feel very lovable.

745
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 5: And it's so interesting, Like I asked you that question,

746
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 5: like how did you meet her, not necessarily expecting you

747
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 5: not in fact, not at all, and expecting you to

748
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 5: have a personal connection. And when you said, oh, yeah,

749
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 5: she was running she and her husband were running this

750
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 5: theater company in New Hampshire, I kind of gasped, like

751
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 5: and then I thought, Okay, why am I surprised, And

752
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 5: I think it's because of I think we have a

753
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 5: tendency sometimes to put history under glass and be like,

754
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 5: that was that time, and this person who was a

755
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 5: Holocaust survivor, this was their thing and this is what

756
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 5: they did. And so it always feels especially poignant and

757
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 5: incredible for somebody who led that life to then have

758
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 5: an experience and impact and do something completely different with

759
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 5: their life and impact somebody that I know and that

760
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 5: I walk around with.

761
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: Oh amazing.

762
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 2: And when she.

763
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 4: We should definitely plug her her books here, especially Hidden,

764
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 4: which was a which is a It's her story told

765
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 4: in a graphic novel. It's gorgeous, an excellent way to

766
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 4: tell the story of a child going through this with her.

767
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:01,240
Speaker 1: The most hopeful POV that we've heard yet in the show.

768
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: The most hopeful is coming from the perspective of somebody

769
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: who watched the world pretty much almost end right. Nobody

770
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: has had that we've talked to has seen as much.

771
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: She watched complete and destruction of society and civilization and

772
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: everyone she knew that.

773
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 3: Moment she was like, oh no, the Germans would never

774
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 3: do that, right.

775
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: And so the person, the person who watched the most,

776
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: who witnessed the most destruction at the earliest point in

777
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,879
Speaker 1: their life. It has the most optimistic and hopeful POVM. Hmm,

778
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: isn't that crazy?

779
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 4: Oh, it's it's absolutely insane.

780
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 1: Well, maybe that's exactly the way it should. Maybe that's

781
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 1: you know, having dealt with that and survived that, what

782
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 1: else do you What else are you going to do

783
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,760
Speaker 1: with the rest of your life except see the beauty

784
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: and hope and things. I don't know, what do you think.

785
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 4: She processed all this stuff when she was a child?

786
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 4: And these, I mean, these same things are happening h

787
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 4: elsewhere in the world, children facing down horror and watching

788
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 4: as their entire families and communities are completely wiped from

789
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 4: the face of the earth. Hearing a child's perspective in

790
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 4: this moment in history is absolutely necessary, because we're being

791
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 4: asked every day to deny our humanity and to deny

792
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 4: the humanity of the people that this is currently happening to.

793
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 4: I think it's important that we hear. This doesn't just

794
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 4: happen to adults. This doesn't just happen to This doesn't

795
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,879
Speaker 4: just happen to bad people. This happens to people who

796
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:44,919
Speaker 4: have no comprehension of why because they're four years old.

797
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,359
Speaker 4: They're five years old. They don't know why the world

798
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,439
Speaker 4: hates them. They've done nothing. They didn't ask to be here,

799
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 4: they didn't ask for suffering, they didn't cast aspersions on

800
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 4: you or anybody. I think hearing a child's perspective of this,

801
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 4: and hearing about how she couldn't even comprehend why this

802
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 4: man would hate her, that's happening hundreds of thousands of

803
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 4: times over across the planet as we speak, and we

804
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 4: allow it because we don't understand the human consequences, the

805
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 4: consequences to the most innocence. We're for some reason as

806
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 4: a society, maybe because we seem incapable of seeing humanity.

807
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 4: And I think sometimes it takes a child's story. It shouldn't,

808
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 4: it shouldn't have to take a child's story, But it

809
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 4: takes a child's story to make us really gasp and

810
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 4: to make us feel sick to our stomachs. And we

811
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 4: should feel sick to our stomachs. We should, because that's

812
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 4: when change happens. Is when we are repulsed, When everybody

813
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 4: is repulsed by what happens, that's when real change happens.

814
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 4: And hearing this horrifying story from a child and hearing

815
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 4: that she's able to come out of it, pushing harder

816
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,359
Speaker 4: for humanity. Despite the fact that it was humanity that

817
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 4: killed her father, that took the people she loved, that

818
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 4: took the little boy she used to run around with

819
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 4: away from her, she still has faith in that, especially

820
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,919
Speaker 4: for the children that are coming up. Now there's hope

821
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 4: for the children.

822
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: She gives us a tool in her words, she says

823
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 1: to do good. She equates doing good with resistance. So

824
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 1: even if you are looking at the world, in the

825
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 1: horrors of the world, and you think what can I do?

826
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 1: What can I do? What can I do?

827
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: Well?

828
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 1: She gives it to you right here. She says, you know,

829
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: don't look at yourself as as a victim, look at

830
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 1: you know, look at yourself as a reva. Beyond that,

831
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: she says, what are you doing for humanity every day?

832
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,399
Speaker 1: What have you done good for humanity today? And that's

833
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:47,479
Speaker 1: and she gives us this wonderful gift of like doing good,

834
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: just simply helping, helping you know, the kid who is

835
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: otherwise lonely and feeling abandoned. Doing good is resistance. That

836
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: is the resistant thing.

837
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 4: Absolutely, But I think that also, so though those acts

838
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 4: may add up and make the world better, I think

839
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 4: that the kind of resistance she's also talking about is

840
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 4: pushing back against bullies, is pushing back against the big powers,

841
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 4: and that we can't have a good world if we

842
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 4: let the bullies win. We can't live in a good

843
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 4: world and let the bullies win. And I think that

844
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 4: right now, as we are living in an era where

845
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 4: it's going to be asked of us more and more

846
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 4: to we're gonna have a choice to either protect ourselves

847
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 4: and sit back quietly and let things happen around us

848
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 4: like many Germans did, like eighty percent, I mean, or

849
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:46,879
Speaker 4: we can fucking stand up and push back and put

850
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 4: ourselves at hazard to a certain extent to do good

851
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,720
Speaker 4: in the service of good. And that's something that's alien

852
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 4: to a lot of people, I think, And so it's

853
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 4: very seldom been asked of us to stand up in

854
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 4: the last twenty thirty years. And I think we're reaching

855
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 4: a point now where there's just going to be in

856
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 4: there's just going to be a point where we have

857
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 4: to make a choice. Do we put ourselves at hazard

858
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 4: and stand or do we allow history to wash over us?

859
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 4: And in thirty years look back and go like, well,

860
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:22,280
Speaker 4: there was nothing I could.

861
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 6: Do, and it encroaches slowly. I mean, I think people

862
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 6: assumed that the Holocaust was something that the a light

863
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 6: switch went on, and this happened, but the rights were

864
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 6: gradually taken away. The course language to different groups of

865
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 6: people was normalized. We see it happening here absolutely, And

866
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 6: when we went to Berlin, I mean I knew that

867
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 6: the history already, but we went through the Topography of Terror,

868
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,240
Speaker 6: which is the Museum of the Holocaust, of how it happened,

869
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 6: from discrediting the press to saying it's singling out this

870
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 6: group of people is causing the problem.

871
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,399
Speaker 1: And it is so hidden too. She didn't even believe it,

872
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 1: so I did, but she nobody believed. And you know,

873
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 1: they were like, no, these concentration camps couldn't have happened, right,

874
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: But like you were saying, you know, and they couldn't

875
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: imagine it. It's the civilized, the most civilized nation in

876
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 1: your German Germany. How could happen there? I don't believe it.

877
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 1: But then so it happens without you knowing it, and

878
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 1: it happens and they don't just show up one day

879
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,720
Speaker 1: and take you to the gas chambers that did happen.

880
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: But before that they have stars, yellow stars, and before.

881
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,399
Speaker 6: That they can't they can't have a law.

882
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: You can't tee and you can't be a teacher, and

883
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 1: you can't be a lawyer, and you can't.

884
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 6: And it's perfectly justifiable for some our camp cans and property.

885
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 6: And three years later, now this right is taken away

886
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 6: and then suddenly you're in a camp animal form.

887
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 5: I found myself thinking, as you all were talking about

888
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 5: sort of this, these great arcs we see of like

889
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 5: rises and falls of fascism and more certainly in a

890
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 5: period of rising. Now, is you know, where do we

891
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 5: stand individually as humans and what can.

892
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 3: Help us to resist that?

893
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 5: Because sure, we can point fingers all day and say,

894
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 5: well we should be standing up against this, sure, but

895
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 5: what tools do we.

896
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 3: Need internally to be able to do that?

897
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 5: And you know, I think about back to these other

898
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 5: stories and how a lot of us are sort of

899
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 5: walking around and feeling like isolated individuals. And so we are,

900
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 5: you know, walking around and carrying our individual weights of

901
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,240
Speaker 5: guilt or whatever it is, and just sort of feeling

902
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 5: like nothing's right. So what helps us to get away

903
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 5: from that it's this sense of in part of feeling

904
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 5: like we are connected to other people, which are some

905
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 5: of the themes we've heard in these other stories.

906
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 3: Not getting bogged down in the sort of specifics of

907
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 3: who we.

908
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 5: Are and our egos and our individualized details right about

909
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 5: who we are and.

910
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 1: Our our separateness.

911
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, our identities. Thank you.

912
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:55,399
Speaker 5: That was the term I was looking for. And yeah,

913
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 5: I'm thinking about some of the other storytellers who at

914
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 5: this present moment in their storytelling are still feeling very

915
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:10,240
Speaker 5: much bogged down by guilt or depression or post traumatic stress.

916
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 3: And what she's been through.

917
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 5: And her ability to say it comes unbidden and there's

918
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 5: nothing you can do about it.

919
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 3: These are things that sort of pass in and out

920
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 3: of us.

921
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 5: But you know, it's sort of her ability to sit

922
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 5: there and see that these feelings. You know, I am

923
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 5: not the storm, right, but the storm kind of passes

924
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 5: through me.

925
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 3: And I was really struck by her ability to do that.

926
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:39,359
Speaker 4: I think that the most important basic building block of

927
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 4: fighting bullies is being able to see the humanity in

928
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 4: other people around you, particularly people that are not like you.

929
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 4: I think you have to have that, and I think

930
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:54,280
Speaker 4: you have to fight for that in order to feel

931
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 4: the fire underneath your ass to actually help to make change.

932
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 4: And you do that by listening. You do that by

933
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:05,839
Speaker 4: going out and meeting the community where you're at, You're

934
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 4: not History is not happening to you. You are in

935
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 4: the stream with everything else, and you are a part

936
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 4: of it, and you are a thread in what can

937
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 4: become a rope, and that rope can pull people forward

938
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 4: or it can hang us.

939
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 1: Next time on a Live Again, we meet singer songwriter

940
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 1: Blair Kremenz, whose life, identity, and music completely transformed after

941
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: a near fatal head injury.

942
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 7: The way that the accident went down is just a

943
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 7: tremendous metaphor. As this dog was pulling me on a skateboard,

944
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 7: that's just me letting the world take me where where

945
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 7: it wants me to go. There was something else pulling me,

946
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 7: you know, in a different direction, and I was more

947
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 7: than a little lost. I hit the pavement so hard

948
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 7: it fractured the base of my skull into my ear canal,

949
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,359
Speaker 7: and blood started pouring out of my ear.

950
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 1: Our story producers are Dan Bush, Kate Sweeney, Brent die

951
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 1: Nicholas Dakowski, and Lauren Vogelbaum. Music by Ben Lovett. Additional

952
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: music by Alexander Rodriguez. Our executive producers are Matthew Frederick

953
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,800
Speaker 1: and Trevor Young. Special thanks to Alexander Williams for additional

954
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 1: production support. Our studio engineers are Rima El Kali and

955
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 1: Nomes Griffin. Our editors are Dan Bush, Gerhartzlovitchka, Brent Dye,

956
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 1: and Alexander Rodriguez. Mixing by Ben Lovett and Alexander Rodriguez.

957
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Dan Bush. Thank you to Kathy Preston.

958
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 1: As she has said, there are less and less people

959
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: alive from the period I am from, and the more

960
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 1: people die, the less availability there is to connect.

961
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:48,680
Speaker 2: With the past.

962
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 1: I speak for the people who cannot speak for themselves.

963
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 1: With that in mind, we hope you share her story

964
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: as well. For more information about Kathy and her work

965
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,720
Speaker 1: and books, you can go to Katti Press dot com.

966
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 1: That's k A T I p R E. S d

967
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,800
Speaker 1: O N dot com. Alive Again is a production of

968
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:10,720
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and Psychopia Pictures. If you have a transformative

969
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 1: near death experience to share, we'd love to hear your story.

970
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 1: Please email us at Alive Again Project at gmail dot com.

971
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 1: That's a l i V e A g A I

972
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 1: N p R O j e c T at gmail

973
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: dot com.