1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: on Trace B. Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. Today we 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: have an interview. I'm really excited about it. It's with 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: Dennis Carr, who is the Caroline and Peter Lynch, creator 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: of American Decorative Arts at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, 7 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: Allston's the m f A, and it's about something I 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: completely missed in history class. It's really easy to think 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: of globalization as a recent phenomenon and also to think 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:44,279 Speaker 1: of Europe as the biggest influence on colonial art and 11 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: colonial life in North and South America. But as we're 12 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: going to talk about today, globalization really started in the 13 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: sixteenth century, and Asia's influence on the American colonies was huge. 14 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: So to set the stage a bit, the m f 15 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: A actually got in touch with us not long after 16 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: our episode on Katsushika Hokusai, and that episode followed Tracy's 17 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: visit to the m f A to see its hokus 18 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: I exhibition, and we talked a little bit in it 19 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: about how the work of Hokusai and other Japanese artists 20 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: influenced European artwork after Commodore Perry forced Japan to reopen 21 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 1: its borders in eighteen fifty three, and at that point 22 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: those borders had been closed for more than two hundred years. 23 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: So obviously the fact that it was reopening borders meant 24 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: that they had been open at some point in the past, 25 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: and so had the borders of many other Asian nations. 26 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: And that's what we're going to talk about today, how Japan, China, 27 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: India and other Asian nations had an enormous influence on 28 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 1: colonial arts, starting all the way back, as we said, 29 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: in the sixteenth century. So let's move it over to 30 00:01:50,960 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: the interview. So today I have with me this car 31 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: who's the Caroline and Peter Lynch, curator of American Decorative 32 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: Arts at the Museum of Fine Arts of Boston also 33 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: known as the m f A. Thank you so much 34 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: for being on the show today, Dennis, it's my pleasure 35 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: of Tracy. Thank you. Um So, the exhibition you've just 36 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: curated is called Made in the America's The New World 37 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 1: Discovers Asia. Can you kind of describe the story that 38 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: you were trying to tell with your curation of this exhibition? Well, 39 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 1: the story of the exhibition begins in the sixteenth century, 40 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: when for the first time there's direct trade between Asia 41 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: and the America's and that trade, which lasts for two 42 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: and a half centuries, impacts art production throughout Latin America 43 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: in places like Mexico and Peru, but also Brazil and 44 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: North America. Cities like Boston and Philadelphia and New York 45 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: and even Quebec City all are impacted by the importation 46 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:04,959 Speaker 1: of Asian objects, and artists in these locations started making 47 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: art that looked a lot more like the Asian imports. 48 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: So the exhibition itself is really focused on decorative art 49 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: and decorative art obviously from your title is your focus? 50 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: Is this same international fusion also present in paintings and 51 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: sculptures of the time as well. It is, but a 52 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: little less so in oil paintings, which are often done 53 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: in a European tradition. But what's interesting to me are 54 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: the unusual kinds of paintings that are made in places 55 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: like Mexico City. There's a technique that develops in the 56 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: seventeenth century in response to the importation of Japanese lacquerware 57 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: that's in inlaid with mother of pearl, and these paintings 58 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: are called an concado literally shelled or shell work paintings. 59 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: Concha in Spanish means shell, and these paintings are literally 60 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: inlaid with thin sheets of mother of pearl. And then 61 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: the artist builds up the service with jesso and then 62 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: over paints with oil, paints and glazes and creates this 63 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: incredible luminescent surface for paintings. So a major source of 64 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: this influx of Asian objects into the Americas during this 65 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: time came from what was known as the Manila galleons. 66 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 1: So the whole trade between Manila and Acapulca. Can you 67 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about these galleons and and 68 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:34,679 Speaker 1: how that whole trade route came to be. Yes, after 69 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: fifteen sixty five, the Spanish um were in control of 70 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: the Philippines, and after they sounded the colonial city of Manila, 71 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: they began trading directly between Manila and Acapulco, Mexico. And 72 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: for roughly two and a half centuries, the Spanish ships 73 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: laden with goods collected from across Asia, Chinese textiles and 74 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: max Japanese lack a wares and folding screens, um carved ivories, 75 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: from the Philippines, textiles from India, and of course spices 76 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,239 Speaker 1: and even Asian slaves were brought on board these Manila 77 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: galleons that sailed from Manila northward towards Japan following the 78 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: trade winds. They would make landfall on the western side 79 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: of what's now the America's and then head south land 80 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: and Acapulco and sell their wares in these spectacular fairs 81 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: that happened. You can imagine what you know, Acapulco would 82 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: come to life when the ships arrived from Manila. That's 83 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: one of the things that was really so fascinating to 84 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: me about this exhibition is that we all kind of 85 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: learned an elementary school that when Columbus made his original 86 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 1: voyages he was looking for a sea route to get 87 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: to Asia, and then it seems like that story just started, 88 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: it sort of stops there. A lot of kids then 89 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: don't learn that even though there wasn't a direct sea 90 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: route to Asia, there was still a lot of trade 91 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: with Asia with sort of the Americas as a bridge. 92 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: And so seeing all of these objects that are evidence 93 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: of that. Uh So he was hugely fascinating in the exhibition, 94 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: I would say, this is history that I wasn't taught 95 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: in school. You're right. The history I was taught is 96 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: about the connection between Europe and the New World, but 97 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 1: not about Asia and the New World. So this exhibition 98 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: tries to tell a story that I think will be 99 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: unfamiliar to many who come to see the show. And 100 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: this is sort of the four and fiftieth anniversary of 101 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: the establishment of this Manila to Acapoco trade, right it is, 102 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: in fact, Yeah, the first ship sailed in fifteen sixty 103 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: five and fifty years ago, and then regular trade begins 104 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: in fifteen seventy three and last until eighteen fifteen, a 105 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: really long time. And of course this is long before 106 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: the pilgrims landed in Massachusetts or you know there are 107 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: settlers in Jamestown. I mean, the history of the America's 108 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: begins much earlier than um the standard story of the 109 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: formation of the British colonies in the America's and the 110 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: cities of Latin America were very, very wealthy, and very 111 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: cosmopolitan and globally connected from an early date. And that's 112 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: also much earlier than we think about the phenomenon of globalization. 113 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: I would say that the average person today thinks of 114 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: globalization in terms of McDonald's and Starbucks being all over 115 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: the world, when really this is a process that started 116 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: hundreds of years ago. Yeah, today we live in a 117 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: globalized world, everybody understands that. But the roots of this 118 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: world we live in today, um started back in the 119 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: sixteenth century with the discovery and settlements and colonization of 120 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: the America's by the European powers. And once at the 121 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: America's come on the map, so to speak, they became 122 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: they become a lynchpin in the trade between Asia and 123 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: Europe and Africa. So during the time that this this 124 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: ongoing trade was happening between Manila and Mexico at the 125 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: same time, during part of it, the Rococo and Baroque 126 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: styles were really having their heyday in Europe, which were 127 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: similarly very heavily embellished and very colorful. Where do you 128 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: think are the chicken and the egg in this situation? 129 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: Was it that Europe was just primed to really love 130 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: all of these Asian designs because those uh, those aspects 131 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: were already very very popular in European artwork, or is 132 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: it the other way around? Well, Europeans have always been 133 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: fascinated by Eastern art. Um. Of course, Europe was trading 134 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: with Asia going back a long long time, but the 135 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: direct trade routes that are established in the sixteenth century 136 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: allow a much larger quantity of goods to be traded 137 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: and brought to Europe and to Europe's colonies in the 138 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 1: America's and there was great interest in Europe among intellectuals 139 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: and tastemakers in the seventeenth century. And this develops into 140 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: a style that goes hand in hand with the Baroque 141 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: and Rococo styles that you mentioned. That's called the Shinwasuri 142 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: or in the Chinese taste. People didn't call it shin 143 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: wa zurri in the period. It's the term that we've 144 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 1: applied to this artistic style that begins in the late 145 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: seventeenth century and reaches its height by the middle of 146 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 1: the eighteenth century. And the Shinwasuri resulted in really interesting 147 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: buildings and textiles and ceramics and paintings and furniture and 148 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: any number of objects made in Europe and the America's 149 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: in an Asian style, and they're not exactly correct, you know, 150 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: they don't look a lot like Asian art per se um. 151 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: They're inventive and creative and very fanciful interpretations of Asian 152 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: styles and um and this is very very popular throughout Europe, 153 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: both in the courts but also among the gentry. I 154 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: think my most favorite object in this exhibition is a 155 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: desk and bookcase from the mid eighteenth century from Mexico 156 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: and it has that Shinwasarie interior which is not very 157 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: vibrant gold on red um and that's you have spoken 158 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: about this particular piece on a video on the m 159 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: f A site and in other places. Can you talk 160 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: about this desk and bookcase and what makes it so 161 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 1: amazing in terms of an object that represents this whole 162 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: global trade. This is also one of my most favorite 163 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: objects in the exhibition, and it's never been seen before. 164 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,719 Speaker 1: It's in a private collection and it's never been in 165 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: a museum exhibition before. So it's really exciting to present 166 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: such a spectacular object to the public. And the reason 167 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: I like it so much is it does you know 168 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: embody this new global style that develops UM during the 169 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: colonial period in the Americas. So the outside of this 170 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: spectacular object is made up of very intricate inlays of 171 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: wood and bone in a Islamic pattern that descends from 172 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: the Moor's occupation of Spain. Remember, the Moor's controlled much 173 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: of Spain for nearly eight centuries, and the Spanish finally 174 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: kick the Moors out of southern Spain in a decisive battle. 175 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: And that this happens in the same year Columbus discovers 176 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: America and Spain shifts with attention across the Atlantic to 177 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: the New World. So the outside of this desk has 178 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 1: a style that descends from the Moors period in Spain, 179 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: but that's still very popular in places like Mexico where 180 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: this piece was made in the mid eighteenth century. But 181 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: the inside is a spectacular red interior with gold painting 182 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, in a Chinwasurie style. But what's really 183 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: fascinating about this object when you open the doors, and 184 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: I should mention that this desk has a twin that's 185 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: in a museum collection in Pueblo, Mexico. And if you 186 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: put these two desks together, there are four maps on 187 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: the two doors of each desk, and these maps show 188 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: a property in Veracruz, Mexico that was owned by a 189 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: very wealthy Spanish family going back to the sixteenth century. 190 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 1: And I've studied indigenous mat making traditions from the sixteenth century, 191 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: and we've in fact compared the maps in the desk 192 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: to sixteenth century maps of this property in Vera Cruz, 193 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: and they relate very closely stylistically. So it suggests to 194 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: me that an indigenous painter was at work on the 195 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: interior of this very elaborate desk and bookcase. But it's 196 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: mixed with the Shinwasurie taste for Asian objects, so it's 197 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: a really it's a hybrid between indigenous map making traditions 198 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: and the new Shinwasurie style that was popular in the 199 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: eighteenth century, and that the estate that's actually mapped on 200 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: the inside of those doors was one of Mexico's earliest 201 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: free African settlements. Correct, it was, and in fact they're 202 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: in the maps of this property. We see many Africans depicted, 203 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: and they're likely to be the descendants of the original 204 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: African slaves that were brought to Mexico in the sixteenth century. 205 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: The whole thing is just amazing to have that many 206 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: influences in one object that we can look at today. 207 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: This a piece like this is only possible after the 208 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: sixteenth century, when all the world's great land masses are 209 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: finally interconnected and communicating. So, Holly, I sent you a 210 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: picture of this death because I was so excited about it. 211 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: It is so beautiful. I feel like that's one of 212 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: those pieces of furniture that take it out of the 213 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: historical context. Just pretend you had a piece like that 214 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: in your house and you look at it from the 215 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: outside and go, oh, that's lovely, and then you open 216 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: it up and it's this beautiful red and gold, just 217 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: magically decorated, absolutely beautiful piece Like I wouldn't even care 218 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: what was stored in the desk at that point, I 219 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: just want to look at that beautiful, sparkly work on 220 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: the interior. It still amazes me, even after having seen 221 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: the thing and talked to Dennis Carr about it, that, uh, 222 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: there are that many pieces of different influences in this 223 00:14:55,320 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: one desk, and it's it's pair that's in a different museum. 224 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: So before we move on to the next part of 225 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: our interview, let's have a brief word from a sponsor 226 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: that sounds grand. So next up we are going to 227 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: hear about an indigenous resin technique that did not make 228 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: it into my original set of questions because there are 229 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: just so so many things that I could have asked 230 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: Dennis car about. So I was delighted when this one 231 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: came up naturally as part of the answer. Uh, it 232 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: is just it's a fascinating use of local materials to 233 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: make art. Another thing that I like about the exhibition 234 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: in general and this piece specifically, is that several of 235 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: the objects and it uh in a in a way 236 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: preserved indigenous art and craft techniques even as their subject 237 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: matter changed. Right. So we have coconell dye, which was 238 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: a traditional dye that already existed in in Central and 239 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: South America used to make tapestries in an Asian style, 240 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: um or the Jesuit religious order, commissioning things that were 241 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: made with indigenous featherwork techniques. H. Are there any other 242 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: examples where in working with curating this exhibition you found 243 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: things where it seemed like normally the story of of 244 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: colonialism in North and South America is sort of one 245 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: of European influence steamrolling over everything. But this particular exhibition 246 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: has stories of things that were preserved. H Can you 247 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: can you think of other examples of that being the case? Yeah, 248 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: there were many are indigenous artistic traditions that are preserved 249 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: during the colonial period, and one that comes to mind 250 00:16:54,480 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: are the indigenous lacquer work traditions of both Mexico and 251 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 1: South America. Indigenous artists were before the arrival of the 252 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: Spanish for many many years creating objects with a hard, resinous, 253 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: colorful surface that was used to waterproof gourds and other 254 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: vessels for carrying liquids and foods. And during the Colloial 255 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 1: period they used the same resinous material in South America 256 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 1: was called mopa mopa, which comes from the Mopa mopa tree. 257 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: It's a it comes out of the flowers of the 258 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: Mopa mopa tree and it it hardens quickly, so it 259 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: had to be chewed to soften it. And the indigenous 260 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: artists would mix this Mopa mopa with pigments and clays 261 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: to make it opaque and colorful. And once it once 262 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 1: they chewed it to soften it, they would stretch it 263 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: in their teeth into super thin sheets that would then 264 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: be cut out with designs and patterns, and those patterns 265 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: were applied to the surfaces of objects. And is a 266 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: really fascinating fusion between indigenous craftsmanship and the imported Asian 267 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: lacquer objects that really had a tremendous impact throughout the 268 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: America's So that's one tradition South America, and there's a 269 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: second tradition in Mexico along the same lines. They use 270 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: different materials. In this case, UM they're using chia c 271 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: to oil. Chias are now popular again, UM the t 272 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: SD to oil and a he which is a fat 273 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: derived from an indigenous insect, mixed again with clays and 274 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: pigments to create UM, a hard, resinous surface which they 275 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: apply to a number of objects in imitation of the 276 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: Japanese laquers. It's a move for a moment to North America. 277 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: Another of the objects in the exhibition that I really 278 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: like is a little stoneware teapot from China that dates 279 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: back to seventeen fifty. And at that point, obviously Britain 280 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: was still controlling trade to the North American colonies and 281 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: tea was extremely popular, so there were lots of imported 282 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 1: objects that were all about tea and serving tea and 283 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: drinking tea. How did Asian imports to North America change 284 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: after the Revolutionary War once the United States started managing 285 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: its own trade agreements. Yeah, this story of the China 286 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: trade is better known to our audiences UM. It's the 287 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: story of direct trade between UM, the newly founded United 288 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: States of America and Asia. And this trade wasn't permitted 289 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: under the British government, but became possible in the seventeen 290 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:40,199 Speaker 1: eighties and for the first time North Americans from you know, 291 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: New England and the mid Atlantic were able to custom 292 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 1: order objects right from China and sales ships directly to China. 293 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: And there was quite a brisk trade UM between America 294 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: and Asia in the late eighteenth century. And the teapot 295 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: you mentioned was owned in Salem, Massachusett. It's by a 296 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: ship captain who likely imported it in UM the mid 297 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: or late eighteenth century. And we also have a wonderful 298 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: embroidered Indian palampore or bed cover hanging. It's absolutely spectacular, 299 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: and like the teapot, it has a local history as 300 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: well from the eighteenth century. It was owned in the 301 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: Dick's family of Boston. So Americans really, for the first time, 302 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: we're able to import directly all these spectacular objects from 303 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: India all the way to East Asia. To turn away 304 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: from sort of the some specific things in the collection 305 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: and more into some general trends that I noticed while 306 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: looking at the exhibition when I visited and in reading 307 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: the exhibition catalog, one of the things that comes up 308 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: a lot is that people in North and South America 309 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: and in in Europe described all of these Asian goods 310 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: that were being imported as being from China, regardless of 311 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 1: where in Asia they were actually from. And this actually 312 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 1: included people the enslaved Asians who came aboard the galleons 313 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: were referred to as she knows or Chinos. So why 314 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: do you think China specifically became synonymous for all of 315 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: Asia during this period? You know, this is also a 316 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: modern phenomenon. We still refer to porcelain ceramics as China 317 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: no matter where they're from. UM. But certainly in the 318 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 1: sixteenth century and later, right at the moment of discovery, 319 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 1: people in the America's didn't fully understand where all these 320 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: optics were coming from. And they were also coming on 321 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 1: the same boats, So whether it was coming from the Philippines, 322 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 1: are coming from China or Japan, or other parts of 323 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: East Asia, or even India, it was hard to differentiate, um, 324 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: exactly where all of these goods were being produced. UM. 325 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: And in Mexico, the Indian cloth was called Indiania, but 326 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: they were also referring to all porcelains as from China, 327 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: and even folding screens that could have come from Japan 328 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: or China, they would often refer to them as being 329 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: from China. So, uh, there there's a painting in the 330 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 1: exhibition that is a cast painting, and these are paintings 331 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: that were usually done in a series, and they kind 332 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: of outlined this racial and ethnic hierarchy that emerged, especially 333 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: in Mexico with the influence of all of these different factors. 334 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,199 Speaker 1: Um and the reason that this is this is in 335 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: the exhibition is that the man's coat has obviously inspired 336 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: by Fabrican designs from India, but the people in the 337 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: painting are also really interesting because the painting is sort 338 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: of documenting a Spanish man, his African wife, and their son. 339 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: So I was really curious if you had any insights 340 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: into what exactly it was about the the social and 341 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: ethnic atmosphere in Mexico that sort of spawned this whole 342 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: genre of art about documenting how different races and classes 343 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: worked together as families. Mexico was a very complicated place 344 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: in the eighteenth century. It was a global crossroads and 345 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: as a result, they were people from all over the 346 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: world living there, including many, many different types of indigenous groups. 347 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: There were obviously the European imports who came to colonize. 348 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: There were African slaves and free blacks living in Mexico. 349 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: There were also Asian slaves and free Asians living in Mexico. 350 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: And as a result, people were very interested in the 351 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: different interracial mixing that was taking place in Mexico, especially 352 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,360 Speaker 1: the Spaniards in Spain who were in charge of colonial 353 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: of controlling this colonial place. And many of the costa 354 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: paintings were painted in large sets and they were sent 355 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: to Vane And if you look at the costa paintings, 356 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 1: the depictions are are fairly positive. People tend to be 357 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: very well dressed and getting along. And these were very 358 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: positive statements painted by colonial Mexicans and sent to Spain, 359 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: kind of advertising that, yes, Mexico was very complicated, but 360 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: everything was under control, so to speak. And remember this 361 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: was the time of the Enlightenment, where when people were 362 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: very interested in organizing the natural world around them, including people. 363 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: And the same artists in Mexico who painted these costa 364 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: paintings or task paintings oftentimes also were painting similar paintings 365 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: of birds and flowers from Mexico and the New World. 366 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: So it's part of this larger interest in classifying and 367 00:24:52,800 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: organizing um the world are helping. I am so glad 368 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 1: that we got to ask Dennis about these casta paintings. 369 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: I did my own research on them after I got 370 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 1: home from the exhibition, but none of the research that 371 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: I did made the connection that he just made that 372 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: all of this was going on at the time of 373 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: the Enlightenment, when people were really into categorizing things and 374 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: making taxonomies. Like that connection just had not come about 375 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: from any of the things that I had read. So 376 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: we're going to take another brief pause for another word 377 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: from a sponsor, and then we will move on to 378 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: the conclusion of this interview. That sounds like a fabulous idea, 379 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: So next up we're Tracy's going to get into some 380 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 1: of her last questions with Dennis, including about how his education, 381 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: just like ours, really did not spend a lot of 382 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: time on the Latin American history that is really a 383 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: big part of this exhibition. So it's quite fascinating. So 384 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: the next The mission has been described as as revealing 385 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: a largely overlooked history and I think it's obvious from 386 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: our conversation that there are parts that people just have 387 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: not learned about. Do you have any theories for why 388 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: that is, for why this aspect of the colonial America's 389 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: has just not talked about very much? Well? Going through school, 390 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: I didn't learn a lot about Latin American history, and 391 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: that history certainly predates the British settlement in the America's 392 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: And you know, to me, as an Americanist, I and 393 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 1: with the interest in Latin America and the pre Hispanic past, 394 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 1: the whole world has been opened up. To me. It's 395 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: a fascinating and very complicated history. And when you look 396 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: at the trade not only between Europe and the New World, 397 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: but between Asia and the New World, you see Latin 398 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 1: America and all of the America's as really central to 399 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 1: an astounding global history that we hope to bring out 400 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: some aspects of in this new exhibition. Do you think 401 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: there was a reciprocal influence in Asia as it had 402 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: more and more contact with Latin America. There was, especially 403 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: in places that were settled by Europeans, like Manila, for example. 404 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: There's there are loan words, words that go back and 405 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: forth between the two places. Um places like China and 406 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: Japan and other areas of Asia that were large producers 407 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: of luxury goods didn't really want a lot from the 408 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: West and of objects. They could produce porcelains better than 409 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: the West, they produced better textiles in the West, for example, 410 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: but what they really wanted, especially in China, was silver, 411 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: which was increasingly becoming a major component of the Chinese economy. 412 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: And it was just at this moment when when the 413 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:02,719 Speaker 1: Americas were discovered, and vast quantities of silver were discovered 414 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: in Central Mexico and Peru now modern day Bolivia. So 415 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: the America's became extremely wealthy right at this period when 416 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 1: they're first connected with Asia, and they have what Asia wanted, 417 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: which was the raw silver. So in payment for all 418 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: the luxury goods that were being imported from Asia, they 419 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 1: were sending silver from the America's and that's what kept 420 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: this trade going and going so strong for so many centuries. 421 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 1: So during a lot of the same time period, Australia 422 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: was also being colonized. Do you think there is a 423 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: similar international fusion of artworking colonial Australia as well, Probably, 424 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: but I have no idea about that. That's one of 425 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: those things that. Yeah, I'm like, I know this is 426 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: completely out of the scoope of this particular exhibition, but 427 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: I am very curious to know if that would also 428 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: be true. Um, apart from the desk, which I love 429 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: so much, which which has the maps of of a 430 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: free African community, do you think any of the objects 431 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: that are in this exhibition show an influence from enslaved Africans. Well, 432 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: we see an African woman in the costa painting, and 433 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: we also see the influence of Islamic art in the 434 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: outside of the desk and bookcase, but there are the 435 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: signs of other African influence in the art of the 436 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: Americas is harder to find, and likewise, we don't have 437 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: direct evidence that there were Asians at work in the 438 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: Americans in the America's producing art as well. We know 439 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: there were many Asians living in the Americas, but to 440 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: the extent that they were actually artists and producing art, 441 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: that is very unclear in the historical record. So there 442 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: are just so many different pieces in this exhibition, and 443 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: they used so any different materials and styles. We've already 444 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: talked about the desk a couple of times being a 445 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: favorite of both of ours. Do you have any other 446 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: particular favorites. Another favorite of mine is a seventeenth or 447 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: early eighteenth century Peruvian textile that is made by culturally 448 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: inco weavers in Peru, but it mimics the Chinese export textiles. 449 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: And we have a wonderful example from the Metropolitan Museum 450 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: of Art that we've paired with the m F A 451 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: s spectacular peruving example. And it's the first time that 452 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: we've brought these two textiles together, and it's fascinating to 453 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: compare them side by side. I agree with you, I've 454 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: stood there. I came to see the exhibition on on Friday, 455 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: and I stid' well, I live in I live in Boston. 456 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: Our office is in Atlanta, coincidentally, and conducting it in 457 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: a be with you where I live from Atlanta. Uh 458 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: So I came to see the exhibition on Friday, and 459 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: I stood in front of the two of them and 460 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: just sort of marveled at how number one, how intricate 461 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: and beautiful they both are. But how once you know 462 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: what to look for, you can see all of the 463 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: things that are obvious, an obvious Asian influence, and then 464 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: all of these other little touches that are native to 465 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: the area. UM. And there are several things in the 466 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: in the exhibition that you can sort of see that same. Oh, 467 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: I see where the influences, and I see where the 468 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: local pieces of it are. UM. So yeah, I really 469 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: enjoyed it. It's beautiful so much. You're welcome. So when 470 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: when you were getting ready to do this exhibition, it's 471 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: it's clear through our conversation that that you you wanted 472 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: to sort of put together an exhibition that documented this 473 00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: piece of history that hasn't really been uh congealed together 474 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: in an American museum before. What did you think that 475 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: was going to be? Like, Well, it's a challenging project, 476 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: and there have been many scholars who have worked on 477 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: this topic over the years, and there have been exhibitions 478 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: that have um focused on various aspects of this very 479 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: large topic. But this exhibition puts a lot of things 480 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: together that I don't think people have seen before. It 481 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: puts together art from Boston next to art from Quebec City, 482 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: next to art from Mexico City, or Lima, Peru, or Quito, Ecuador, 483 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: to really take a broad view of the America's during 484 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: the colonial period, and that will be surprising to visitors 485 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: as well. So did the did the end result of 486 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: the exhibition? How how did that compare to what you 487 00:32:55,040 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: sort of initially expected when you started working on it. Well, 488 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: it's like producing a Hollywood movie. You don't know how 489 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: it's going to turn out in the end, and you 490 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: bring in objects from different collections, gathered from different parts 491 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: of the country. We have a few international loans that 492 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: and you don't really know what they're gonna look like together. 493 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: You cross your fingers and hope it goes well. But 494 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: I have to say, we have a spectacular design team 495 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: at the m f A and they did an incredible 496 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: job with the show and really brought these objects to life. 497 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: And we're able to place things side by side and 498 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: um create an opportunity for objects to have conversations with 499 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: each other across the Americas. And that to me is 500 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: it just makes my day, makes my job so worthwhile. 501 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: That's really beautiful. Is is there anything else that you 502 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: want to make sure that our listeners know about the 503 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: exhibition or the history that has inspired it. Well, I 504 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: hope they're excited about this topic, even if they don't 505 00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: know much about it coming into the show. But it's 506 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: a beautiful exit vision with a lot of really complicated 507 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,399 Speaker 1: stories of indigenous life in the America's and colonial life 508 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: in the America's and um, how the America's became a 509 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: centerpiece in a new world. Thank you so much. So listeners, 510 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: if you are in the Boston, Massachusetts area, this exhibition 511 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: is ongoing until February sixteen, and we're also going to 512 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: link to the m f AS page on the exhibition 513 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: so you can actually see what a lot of these 514 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 1: objects look like and and get a better sense of 515 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: the things that we are talking about. Thank you again 516 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: so much, Dennis for talking to me today. Thank you, 517 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: and I hope everyone comes to see the show. I 518 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: I encourage anyone who can do it to do it. 519 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: I really I thought it was very beautifully arranged, with 520 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 1: a lot of just intricate, delicate, lovely pieces that all 521 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: tell a really unique story that I had not ever 522 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: heard about, really or or thought about until I got 523 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: into the show. Great, it's a it's a rare opportunity 524 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: to see many of these objects together, and some for 525 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: the very first time in public. So, Holly, I loved 526 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 1: this interview and I loved the exhibition. I feel like 527 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: so often when we are talking about stories about the 528 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: colonial America's a lot of a lot of the stories 529 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 1: that we tell are pretty tragic, because a lot of 530 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: times the tragic stories are are not as focused on 531 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: as much as like the more sort of patriotic, inspiring 532 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,240 Speaker 1: this is what led us to be a great nation 533 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: kind of stories, uh, in various history classes. So like, 534 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: that's one thing that is often overlooked. But another thing 535 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: that's often overlooked is this part, like the various ways 536 00:35:55,560 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: that art and decorative art especially used to gather all 537 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: of these different elements of all of these different colonial 538 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: influences to make something new. And I am the appropriate 539 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: level of jealous that you've got to go bask in 540 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: the glory of this exhibition. And now that we're done 541 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:14,720 Speaker 1: with all of the note taking and all the research 542 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: and all of the preparation and all of that, I 543 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: am going to bring the exhibition catalog with me the 544 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: next time I come to the office so that you 545 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: can look all through it. And that's actually something that 546 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: is also available to other people. Uh, it's available for purchase. 547 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: It's called Made in the America's The New World discovers Asia, 548 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,240 Speaker 1: and it's this really lovely hardcover book it's a hundred 549 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: and sixty pages long, and it's just full of information 550 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: and pictures of all of these objects and artworks that 551 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: we talked about today. We're also gonna link to all 552 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,839 Speaker 1: of them from our show notes. So if you were 553 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: in New England or traveling to that area, this exhibition 554 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: is in the Museum of Fine Arts Boston until February sixteen. 555 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: Then it will head to the winter sur Museum, Garden 556 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: and Library in Delaware and it will be there from 557 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: March twenty sixteen to January eighth, seventeen, so you'll have 558 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: pretty significant window to get in there and see it. 559 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: Winter thir is just outside Wilmington's and it's an hour 560 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,800 Speaker 1: or so from Philadelphia. So hopefully lots of our listeners 561 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: will get to see this because there's some absolutely spectacular pieces. Yeah, 562 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: we're definitely also, as I said earlier, going to link 563 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: to the m fhas page for this exhibition, which has 564 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: a slide show of some of the the pieces that 565 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 1: are in It has a video from Dennis Carr talking 566 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,399 Speaker 1: about the exhibition. There's a lot of stuff to look 567 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: at their in addition to the exhibition catalog and the 568 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 1: exhibition itself and now do you have a little bit 569 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,839 Speaker 1: of listener mail for us? And do you have listener mail? 570 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: And it is from a little bit of an older episode, 571 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: but it was too interesting not to share. It is 572 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: from Britt, and Britt says, I just finished listening to 573 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,800 Speaker 1: the Saint Kitts Slave Revolt of eighteen thirty four, and 574 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: I thought i'd mentioned another island museum but actually does 575 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: a great job of highlighting slavery in their history and 576 00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: engages visitors with a really interesting and informative exhibit without 577 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 1: shying away from some truths. I'm gonna pause reading the 578 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: letter for a second to say we had said. I 579 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: had said specifically at the beginning of that episode that 580 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: I had been to several museums in the Caribbean and 581 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: many of them glossed completely over the existence of slavery 582 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,760 Speaker 1: and it's enormous influence on a lot of Caribbean islands. 583 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 1: Um and then that was not the case at all 584 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: for the St. Kitts National Museum. So, to get back 585 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,720 Speaker 1: to the letter, Bermuda does not fit into the category 586 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 1: of a Caribbean island. However, it shares a lot of 587 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: post colonial similarities, like an epic history of trade the 588 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: British Royal Navy, basically taking over for a serious chuck 589 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 1: of time to our benefit. To be fair and unfortunately, slavery. 590 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: Their largest museum, the National Museum of Bermuda, has a 591 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: breath of exhibits that includes the good, bad, and ugly 592 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: of the island's history. I grew up in Bermuda and 593 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time at the museum versus a 594 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: visitor that has a research intern and finally using it 595 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 1: as a focus of my master's thesis. Part of my 596 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: research and pouring over online reviews looking at how visitors, 597 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: in most cases American cruise tourists, liked or disliked the museum. 598 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: A lot of people complained about the goat pooh. It's 599 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: true they have goats on the property to maintain the grass, 600 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,879 Speaker 1: but they pooh everywhere, and when I was a kid, 601 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: my dad, who grew up on a farm, used to 602 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: throw it at me all the time. The big hill 603 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: to walk up, old horror. But many people also commended 604 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: the museum on their brave exhibit on slavery. The building 605 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: that it is housed in underwent something crazy like a 606 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: tenure renovation, and I vaguely remember when they opened it 607 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: and most of the exhibits inside, including the slave trade 608 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: and slavery in Bermuda, there was a press conference that 609 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: really addressed the topic. It started a discussion amongst the 610 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: public and people outside of the museum world. And I 611 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: even believe that the government issued an apology. Don't take 612 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 1: that as gospel, though my ten year old mind may 613 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:56,319 Speaker 1: have just imagined imagined that. So basically, this is a 614 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 1: long winded way to say, cruise to Bermuda, go visit 615 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 1: their awesome museum and it's literally a stone's throw away 616 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,240 Speaker 1: from the cruise port, and go check out their great 617 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 1: exhibit on slavery and a bunch of other really awesome 618 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: ones with iPads. If you don't want to cruise, slash 619 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,720 Speaker 1: fly over there, you should take out their Facebook, slash 620 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: Instagram since their website is still crazy outdated to see 621 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: some of the awesome exhibits and their collections keep being awesome. 622 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 1: I love the podcast and listen to it at all 623 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 1: hours of the day. Britt. Thank you so much Britt 624 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: for writing that is super interesting. And I want to 625 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: specify I have not been to Bermuda or its museum, 626 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,280 Speaker 1: and I would like to take Britt up on that invitation, 627 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: let's go, let's go right now? Maybe not. Maybe when 628 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: it's cold is when we should go. So thank you 629 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: Britt for writing to us about that. If you'd like 630 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 1: to write to us about this or any other podcast, 631 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 1: we're at history podcast that how Stuffworks dot com. We're 632 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: also on Facebook at Facebook dot com slash miss in 633 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,800 Speaker 1: history and on Twitter at miss in History. Our tumbler 634 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: is at missed in history dot tumbler dot com and 635 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: are also unpinterested at dot com slash missed in History. 636 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: We have a new instagram also, we are at miss 637 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: in history on Instagram. If you would like to come 638 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,800 Speaker 1: to our website, please please do. We are going to 639 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: have a picture of the desk that we spent so 640 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: much time talking about today in our show notes, which 641 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 1: we do for every episode. We're also going to have 642 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: a link to this exhibition at the Museum of Fine 643 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 1: Arts website, lots of other awesome information, and you can 644 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 1: come to our parent company's website, which is how stuff 645 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,400 Speaker 1: Works dot com to learn all kinds of other interesting stuff. 646 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 1: So you can do all that and a whole lot 647 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,840 Speaker 1: more at how stuff works dot com or miss in 648 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: history dot com for more on this, thousands of other topics. 649 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works? Dot com