WEBVTT - The Cost of Pretending You're Okay: with Jamie-Lynn Sigler 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.840 No one has all the answers, but when we ask 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:10.680 the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths, 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:16.560 closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.320 Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.800 together to challenge the status quo and our own ways 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:27.360 of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not? 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:30.600 And who says? So? 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:35.920 Come curious, dig deep, and join the conversation. It's time 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:37.640 to question everything. 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:41.600 Hello. 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:44.800 I hope you had a beautiful holiday weekend, A great 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:48.559 fourth of July. I spent it in Chicago with my 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:53.560 parents and my brother. My dad's birthday is on the third, 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:56.160 and so I usually come home for this weekend and 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:58.680 it's just like such a nice time to be in 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:01.480 the Chicago suburbs. Don't know if you've ever been here, 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:06.119 but it's so green. It's calm, and it's green. And 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:08.240 I don't know if this happens to you, but I 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:12.480 sleep so well in my childhood bed. I guess I 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:16.759 just feel like fully relaxed and like somebody else can 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:21.039 hold the bag, if that makes sense. Anyways, I want 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:24.800 to get into today's episode. I think that there are 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:29.440 moments in life when we become experts at carrying things 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.760 that no one else can see, right, we carry fear, 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:36.560 and a lot of times we're walking around carrying grief 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:40.760 and shame. We carry these stories that we've told ourselves 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.160 about who we have to be in order to be loved, 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:48.640 to be accepted, or to be successful, and if we're 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:52.560 not careful, those stories can become so familiar that we 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:56.120 mistake them for who we actually are. You know, my 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.240 mom has so many great sayings. I think maybe it's 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:02.280 a Dutch thing. There's so many that actually don't even 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.800 translate into English. But one of hers that I recall 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:08.120 often is that if you wear a mask long enough, 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:11.799 it becomes your face. And I didn't really understand what 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:15.960 she meant entirely until twenty eighteen. You've heard me talk 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:19.720 about that season of my life before I was deeply depressed, 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:22.880 and I guess it would be called acutely depressed, right, 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:25.359 And every morning I'd cry in the car on the 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:28.440 way back to work. I would pull into the parking 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:32.720 lot at IMDb or the local NBC station in LA 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:36.160 where I worked, and I would look in the mirror 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:39.160 and wipe my tears and try and give myself a 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:42.040 little pep talk and breathe and put all my makeup 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:46.799 and walk inside, smile, interview people, laugh, do my job, 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:51.880 try and be not a bummer. And then I would 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.080 get back into my car and cry and listen to 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:58.360 sad music all the way home, climb into bed before 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:00.920 seven o'clock and hope that if I could just fall asleep, 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.640 the pain would go away for a little while. And 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:07.080 if you looked at my life from the outside, you 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:11.040 would have never known. On Instagram, I was smiling, and 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:15.639 I was wearing cute outfits, and I was covering NBA 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.800 and WNBA games, and I was interviewing incredible people. But 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:23.120 I remember sitting on my couch one day realizing that 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:26.320 the gap between who I was and who I was 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:31.640 pretending to be had become almost unbearable. Because at the time, 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:36.440 I thought hiding was protecting me, and looking back, I 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.040 don't think it was. Maybe I wasn't ready to share 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:42.800 that chapter publicly, but I also think I underestimated people's 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:47.760 capacity to meet me with compassion instead of judgment. And 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.640 maybe you've experienced your own version of that gap in 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:55.400 some way. Maybe what you're hiding is anxiety or a 0:03:55.480 --> 0:04:01.440 chronic illness, or a relationship that's falling apart, or grief, addiction, 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:06.600 financial stress. Maybe you're a caretaker, or you're the one 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:09.280 that plans everything and holds it together, and for once 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:11.160 you just want to be the one that's not capable 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:14.760 in your family. Maybe you're just simply exhausted trying to 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:18.160 be the version of yourself that you think everyone else expects, 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.120 or you've gone through a season like that. Whatever it 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:24.159 is hiding always comes at a cost, and our guest 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:31.080 today knows that cost so intimately, for millions of people, 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:36.039 Jamie Lin Sigler will always be Meto soprano, the daughter 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:38.960 we watched growing up on one of the greatest television 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:43.200 shows ever made. But while the world saw a young 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:47.320 actress living out a dream, Jamie was quietly navigating a 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:51.120 reality almost no one knew about. At just twenty years old, 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:55.359 she was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, and for years she 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.680 believed that if anyone found out, everything she had worked 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:03.680 for would disappear. So she kept going. She smiled, and 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.600 she worked, and she showed up. All the while she 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:10.359 carried the exhausting weight of pretending that she was okay, 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:15.880 Until one day she realized something profound. The illness wasn't 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:19.440 the only thing causing her pain. The silence and the 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:21.960 shame of hiding it was just. 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:26.000 To think about all of the extra layer of suffering 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:29.080 that I placed upon myself because I didn't want anybody 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:31.240 to know I have this, Like I all of the 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:35.120 help that I never opened myself up to because of 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:37.560 the shame I felt around having a mess. I was 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:40.640 just like, I can't I can't do this anymore. I 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:43.560 can't live like this anymore. I don't deserve to. I 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:47.760 need to see how life can be a different way. 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.680 Listening to Jamie, and especially reading her beautiful memoir and 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:57.240 So it Is, I found myself unexpectedly emotional. Not just 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:00.760 because of what she endured, although it is extraordinary, But 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:03.560 what moved me was her refusal to give up on 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.680 the thing that she loved. If you read the book, 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:10.360 you'll understand what I'm saying. Jamie has this undeniable calling 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:14.520 to perform, and when her diagnosis changed her body, she 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.000 could have believed that that chapter of her life was over, 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:21.480 but instead she did something so much harder. She accepted 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:23.840 that she couldn't answer her calling in the same way 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:27.160 she always had, and then she found a new way 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.200 to answer it. And I think that's a lesson that's 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:35.120 far bigger than acting. Life changes all of us. Bodies change, 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:40.680 relationships and careers evolve, dreams get interrupted. The question isn't 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.440 whether the path will change. The question is whether we'll 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:48.200 mistake a detour for a dead end. Jamie didn't, and 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:52.440 she also discovered something beautiful on the other side of 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:53.480 telling the truth. 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:59.000 We can feel so isolated in our pain because we 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.640 feel like it will just connect us from everyone. But 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:04.880 what I've learned is sharing my pain has connected me 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:05.960 to everyone. 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.560 The things she feared would isolate her became the very 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.400 thing that connected her most deeply to other people. Our 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:17.600 conversation today isn't really about multiple sclerosis. It's about the 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:21.160 mass that we wear, the stories that Shane convinces us 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:25.160 to believe, and what becomes possible when we finally tell 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:29.120 the truth about who we are. It's time to question 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:39.559 everything with Jamie Lynd Siegler. So, Jamie, I was looking 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:42.240 at some of your messy episodes. It's the podcast you 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:44.520 share with Christina Applegate, and one of them is called 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:47.280 stop talking about It for a minute, and it made 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:49.880 me laugh because it was such an honest way of saying, 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.560 this is not the only thing I want to be 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:55.960 talking about. So before we get into your full story, 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:59.280 when you are tired of being profound or inspirational, what 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:01.720 is your favorite completely unserious thing about you? 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:03.920 And why? Do I think? It's reality TV? It's one 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.040 hundreds of It was on the tip of my tongue. 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:09.600 It's let's talk Bravo. Really, yeah, you know, I've been 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:14.240 a fan of reality television and Bravo specifically for so long, 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.960 Like I've watched from season one of all of these shows. 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:20.320 I think it's it's a couple of reasons. One, I 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:24.120 think it's like trauma drama at a safe distance, you 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.040 know what I mean. But I also I find that 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:31.520 people in general and in life, we were performative every day, 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:35.120 right We're putting on a face for people, and many 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:37.960 of these women put on a face for the camera, 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.360 and that's just very natural. It's what we do. We 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:44.400 want to present ourselves to be a certain way. But 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:49.800 then there's always these just real, raw human moments that 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:52.079 all of a sudden just get stripped down. It's like 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.480 they forget the cameras are there, and I think it's 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.880 so brave of these people to let us in. But 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.200 it just it makes you feel so the when it's 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:04.520 the fluff and when it's the unseerious. I don't know, 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:06.640 it just reminds you that you can be that way 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:08.280 too in life a little bit. I don't know. I 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:11.560 think reality television I love seeing people's arcs, but it 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:15.280 also can feel like it's just sort of the background 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:18.360 of noise. I don't know. I just I enjoy it 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:19.319 for so many reasons. 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:21.880 And is it all of the shows like Housewives, Summer 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:24.480 House correct, all of them, all of them. 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.480 I can get down with all of them. I don't 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:30.880 consider myself an expert on many things, but Bravo shows 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:32.640 I can throw down with anyone. 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:35.120 I so appreciate you sharing this because I'm the same, 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:39.120 oh good, and it's like the outlier aspect of my personality. 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:40.760 No one would guess it, and I'm kind of the 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:43.480 same for you. Kind of yeah. I mean, I think 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:45.400 if you if you talk to me for like more 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:48.520 than fifteen minutes, it'll come up somehow. But yes, I 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:51.840 think there's definitely a side of me that people have 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:54.040 gotten to know and might be surprised to know that 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:56.720 how much I love I'm not like a cinophile, Like 0:09:56.760 --> 0:10:00.480 I'm not watching like great classic movies. I'm watching episodes 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:02.559 of Bravo that I've probably seen ten times, and I'm 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:06.680 still enjoying it just as much. After listening to the episode, 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.120 I was thinking, do I call you Jamie Lynn or 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:13.720 do I call you James? You call me Jamie for share, okay? 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:16.520 And because when you were younger, your agents thought your 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:18.599 middle name made you sound more professional. 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:23.080 Yes, Jamie Siegler just didn't sound like a star. I guess. 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:26.760 Did that shift in names sort of feel like the 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:31.680 beginning of the industry seeing you as a certain entity 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:32.640 or in a certain way. 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:33.240 Yeah. 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:38.359 You know, it's interesting because my first real, real professional 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:43.800 job was the Sopranos, And as you can imagine, on 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:49.800 one hand, that's incredible, how lucky, how amazing, but also 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:55.160 how overwhelming. There was no ease into this business, ease 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:58.560 into fame, ease into sort of getting to know who 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:00.680 I was and how I could carry myself. I was 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.840 really thrust into the big leagues and I was very 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:08.240 green and an experience. So yes, that was just one 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:12.200 tiny piece of me feeling like an impostor and I 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:14.520 didn't quite know how to navigate Hollywood. 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:18.080 It was one of the most like visceral parts of 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:20.760 the book. I thought, like the first third when you're 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:25.839 writing about how you're trying to find yourself, and there 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:28.680 was a man named Dieter that you write about, and 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:31.320 I don't know what his profession. 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:34.680 Was was he was the president of the Wilhelmina modeling agency. 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:37.080 He was a big fricking deal. 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:39.400 And so you're talking to him and he's telling you 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:41.960 basically like you need to look like a star. You're 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:43.880 not ready to be a star yet, like we need 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:46.600 to turn you into a which is sort of like 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:50.440 the language that you would think like from movies, but 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.240 it was actually happening with you know, and to be honest, 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:57.319 it felt compassionate, like it felt like he cared. 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:01.040 It felt like he wanted it for me me. And 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:07.400 so also I was incredibly insecure and had a terrible 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:09.880 narrator that went along in my head with me through 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:12.680 my life. So it was almost like this very big, 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:18.680 powerful man was confirming the things that I felt within me, 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:21.520 but he was going to show me the way out. 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:25.800 So anytime I had encounters like that, I wasn't angry. 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.920 It was almost like yeah, I know, like, yeah, please 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:33.600 show me the way. So I was so you know, 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:37.520 vulnerable to like anything that anybody would tell me because 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:40.840 I felt so ill equipped to navigate how to be 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:42.720 in Hollywood and to be a star. 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:46.880 It was so interesting reading about it because so much 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.280 of what you shared of having an eating disorder and 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:52.559 you had a nose job that you ended up regretting, 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:55.680 and it was so much of what almost every teenage 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:59.760 girl feels except for yours, was so heightened. How do 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:03.600 you look back on that fifteen year old? 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.560 You know? That was probably the biggest part of my 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:13.560 healing in writing this, was having forgiveness for that fifteen 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:18.040 year old and having like compassion for her. Up until 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:21.040 very recently, I've just beaten myself up for so long 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:24.360 about so many the choices that I made, and I 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:30.680 never looked at myself as like young and innocent and normal, 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:33.679 you know. I just really looked at myself like, uh, 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:37.960 she just can't do the right thing. And so to 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:40.280 be able to kind of go back through your life 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:44.040 and almost see yourself as like the lead in your movie, 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.280 you know, and if you think about any movie and 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:48.920 you see the mistakes, but you see the journey and 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:50.920 you see what they learned through all of it, and 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.400 you root for them and you can be like, ah, 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.520 don't do it, but you see what life gave them 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:59.240 through that experience. I was really able to get that, 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.480 especially for that young girl, for just just feeling for her, 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:08.199 having her pain feel seen and validated, and that it 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:11.480 wasn't in her head, that it wasn't her fault, and 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.520 acknowledging what a big thing she was trying to navigate. 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:17.480 Why also just being a teenager and that being hard 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:21.000 in itself, you know, So it was I kind of 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:26.160 broke this book for that girl and all of the 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.920 pain and all of the insecurity that she felt and 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:31.360 carried alone for so long. 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:35.680 You've been on a journey of finding peace and compassion. 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:39.360 Have you been able to find that compassion over time 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:42.440 or was there anything in particular you did that you 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:43.680 felt was really helpful? 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:45.920 You know, I think it's and I've tried in the 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:49.120 book to really take you along with me on all 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:54.800 of the sort of moments and pieces of inspiration or 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:58.560 you know, people that have taught me things throughout life 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:00.720 that sort of have gotten me where I am. I 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:04.600 wouldn't say it's like one moment. Working on yourself is 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:10.080 really hard. I have had a privilege of having a 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:12.360 lot of time and space to be able to do that. 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.760 I think living with MS has been it's kind of 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:18.440 the blessing. One of the blessings of having it is 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:20.560 that it's called me back to myself and made me 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.320 pay attention to myself instead of sort of bulldozing forward 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:27.360 and bypassing feelings and emotions and experiences and not wanting 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:29.360 to deal with them. I really think had I not 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:31.200 had MS, that's how I would have gone through my 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.960 life until something you know, happened and would have forced 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:37.080 me to do that. So, you know, I just think 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:40.840 that there's it's just been this kind of gradual undoing. 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:45.000 I've had big aha moments, like when I met our 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:47.840 friend Ryan and he taught me about a course in 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:52.200 miracles with for me felt like something that I could 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:55.160 connect to, something that could give me my feet on 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.160 the ground, a foundation of faith. There's so many ways 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.040 for people to find that that just and to be mine, 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:06.000 but just sort of being open to life being another way. 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:08.560 And what I will say about all the things that 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:13.320 have helped me shift my perspective and helped me. It's 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:17.960 not like any of my circumstances changed once I found 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:22.200 those things to help me. It's just my perspective shift. Yeah, 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:25.920 And that, I think, more than anything, is what I 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.520 hope that people can get from that, the possibility for themselves, 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:34.920 because pain is inevitable. Life is going to continue to 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:38.760 bring you experiences that are there to make you grow 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:44.120 and evolve. But the story that we tell ourselves about 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.320 that pain, the story that we tell ourselves about the 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:49.600 experience of who we are because of it and who 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:53.000 they are, that's what we're real suffering lies, and that's 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:56.400 where our real power lies. To rewrite that. We don't 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:59.720 have to be stuck in suffering. We can alchemize our 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:04.040 pain into something more. And for decades I didn't know 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:06.639 how to do that. But in the past, you know, 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:09.760 five six, seven years, I've really committed to that, and 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.960 it was really the drive to write this memoir and 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:15.720 to put it out. It's not about me. I have 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:19.840 plenty of love and validation in my life. My pain 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.639 has been seen and validated by everyone that I know 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:28.280 and care about. I want people to see themselves in 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:33.000 my story and think if she feels so comfortable sharing 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:37.280 these deep, dark, painful parts of herself. Why can't I? 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:41.959 Wow, I think that's so powerful. I saw parts of 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:45.920 myself in your story throughout the whole book, and we've 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:50.040 had incredibly different life experiences, so I do feel people 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:51.879 are going to feel that. And it was almost a 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:56.720 permission slip, because sometimes it's like it feels embarrassing to be, 0:17:57.800 --> 0:17:59.680 oh my gosh in pain that way. 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:02.760 I mean, this is these are these are the stories 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:06.280 that I was the most embarrassed about, the most shameful about, 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:08.600 the things that I thought no one would love me, 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:11.920 no one would accept me if they ever knew about this, 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:14.919 which one was the hardest to write. I think everything 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:19.320 about my first marriage was really difficult. I felt like 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:23.800 such a cliche. I felt like such a loser. I 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:27.480 felt like such a crazy person, you know, like sometimes 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:30.480 you've have these toxic relationships in your life that literally 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:35.040 make you feel like you're crazy. And that was really difficult. 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:40.680 Also because I didn't want to make my ex one dimensional, 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:45.760 like he wasn't all bad, you know, they obviously there 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:49.479 were things about him that made me feel safe and 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:51.920 loved and secure. To spend five and a half years 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:54.280 with him to marry him, even though I was very 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.439 young and innocent and naive, and so I really wanted 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:00.320 to be conscious, you know, in writing this book. This 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:03.480 wasn't about a takedown of anyone. This was about sort 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:07.359 of freeing myself from the stories that have held me down. 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.399 And I had a girlfriend tell me that one of 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:14.359 the gifts of expressing your vulnerability, whether it be in 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:16.040 a book or any medium, it doesn't have to be 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:17.800 on a grand scale, is that you no longer have 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:22.520 to carry your pain alone. And when you do that 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.159 and other people see themselves in it, it just it 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:28.639 lightens everything. I did a book signing a couple of 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:30.959 weeks ago here in New York, and it was like 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:34.000 seventy five eighty women, all who had read the book, 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:35.919 none of which I'd known, and I'd never been in 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.040 a room like that, and they were all just so 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:43.320 open and ready to share everything that they've been through 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:45.520 and all of their pain. And it was just so 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:50.040 beautiful to see people ready to free themselves of that. 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:54.600 And so if my sharing my deep pain allowed them 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.440 to do that, a what a gift. It felt bigger 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:01.640 than me. It felt like this was something I had 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:05.000 to do again, not for me, but as part of 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:08.080 my service in the universe, you know. 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.480 And what an ode to your capacity to be able 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:12.800 to hold everything you hold on your own and to 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:14.720 step in a room of eighty women who wanted to 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:16.680 share theirs nicks. 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:21.680 Thank you. It's I try to remind people and remind myself. 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:24.359 You know that this is a place I never thought 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:26.960 I would ever be able to be. You know, I 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:32.240 come from a line of women where like, suck it up, 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:34.879 put on your lipstick, never let them see you sweat, 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:37.600 don't let them see your pain. That's your weakness, Be 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:40.439 careful of women, don't trust anyone. And now I'm like 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:44.600 open hearted, hard in the sleeve, and it just feels. 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:49.760 It feels so much better. It feels I've never felt 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:54.960 so confident. And I think it's just because I've I'm 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:57.639 living in my truth and not hiding any parts of 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:01.080 myself because I don't feel I need to anymore. 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:12.800 Wow. 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:17.840 I got chills when you talked about the women and 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:21.959 your family, because you're brave enough to break the cycle, 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:22.960 which is really hard. 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:25.919 Yeah, yeah, But you know what was really cool. I 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:28.520 was nervous for my mom to read the book because 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:32.399 I mean, look, she's reading things about me and my 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:35.399 perspective that I've never shared with her because I didn't 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:37.240 know how without feeling like I was going to hurt 0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:42.280 her feelings or it would be you know, misinterpreted. And 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:44.600 one of the reactions she had when she first read 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:46.960 the book was she said, I'm really proud of myself. 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:50.040 I did the best I could with raising you with 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:52.399 what I had been through. And I also think that 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:56.040 I was able to allow my mom's pain to be 0:21:56.160 --> 0:22:03.240 seen at her difficult especially child like to be acknowledged. 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:05.760 I don't think she's ever had that before. So it 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:08.320 was also a really beautiful gift that came from all 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:12.560 of this is for my mom to feel the pride 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:15.840 that she deserves to feel as a mother. I think, 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:18.320 you know, as moms, I think we can all feel 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:20.560 like we're not good enough, or we could have done 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:23.280 this or that better. I go through that daily, you know, 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:26.399 in my mind. But I think when you care, that 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:29.160 shows that you're a good mom. And so I'm really 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:33.040 glad that I was able to give her that opportunity 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:35.480 for her to see how amazing of a mom she was, 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:35.840 you know. 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:39.679 Yeah, So when I finished your memoir, it felt like 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:40.320 an exhale. 0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:43.760 Oh and the title. 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:45.879 Is and so it is, and you used to write 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:48.119 it in sharpie yes on your wrist. 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:49.560 It's tattooed now. 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:53.159 Yeah, so your title is a nod to an affirmation 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:55.919 that you made, that you settled about the things that 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:58.840 happen in our lives that we can't change. And you 0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:01.280 said it took you thirty years to find that level 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:04.320 of self acceptance. What does it feel like now that 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:07.520