Speaker 1: No one has all the answers, but when we ask
Speaker 1: the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths,
Speaker 1: closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
Speaker 1: Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come
Speaker 1: together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
Speaker 1: of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not?
Speaker 2: And who says? So?
Speaker 1: Come curious, dig deep, and join the conversation. It's time
Speaker 1: to question everything.
Speaker 2: Hello.
Speaker 1: I hope you had a beautiful holiday weekend, A great
Speaker 1: fourth of July. I spent it in Chicago with my
Speaker 1: parents and my brother. My dad's birthday is on the third,
Speaker 1: and so I usually come home for this weekend and
Speaker 1: it's just like such a nice time to be in
Speaker 1: the Chicago suburbs. Don't know if you've ever been here,
Speaker 1: but it's so green. It's calm, and it's green. And
Speaker 1: I don't know if this happens to you, but I
Speaker 1: sleep so well in my childhood bed. I guess I
Speaker 1: just feel like fully relaxed and like somebody else can
Speaker 1: hold the bag, if that makes sense. Anyways, I want
Speaker 1: to get into today's episode. I think that there are
Speaker 1: moments in life when we become experts at carrying things
Speaker 1: that no one else can see, right, we carry fear,
Speaker 1: and a lot of times we're walking around carrying grief
Speaker 1: and shame. We carry these stories that we've told ourselves
Speaker 1: about who we have to be in order to be loved,
Speaker 1: to be accepted, or to be successful, and if we're
Speaker 1: not careful, those stories can become so familiar that we
Speaker 1: mistake them for who we actually are. You know, my
Speaker 1: mom has so many great sayings. I think maybe it's
Speaker 1: a Dutch thing. There's so many that actually don't even
Speaker 1: translate into English. But one of hers that I recall
Speaker 1: often is that if you wear a mask long enough,
Speaker 1: it becomes your face. And I didn't really understand what
Speaker 1: she meant entirely until twenty eighteen. You've heard me talk
Speaker 1: about that season of my life before I was deeply depressed,
Speaker 1: and I guess it would be called acutely depressed, right,
Speaker 1: And every morning I'd cry in the car on the
Speaker 1: way back to work. I would pull into the parking
Speaker 1: lot at IMDb or the local NBC station in LA
Speaker 1: where I worked, and I would look in the mirror
Speaker 1: and wipe my tears and try and give myself a
Speaker 1: little pep talk and breathe and put all my makeup
Speaker 1: and walk inside, smile, interview people, laugh, do my job,
Speaker 1: try and be not a bummer. And then I would
Speaker 1: get back into my car and cry and listen to
Speaker 1: sad music all the way home, climb into bed before
Speaker 1: seven o'clock and hope that if I could just fall asleep,
Speaker 1: the pain would go away for a little while. And
Speaker 1: if you looked at my life from the outside, you
Speaker 1: would have never known. On Instagram, I was smiling, and
Speaker 1: I was wearing cute outfits, and I was covering NBA
Speaker 1: and WNBA games, and I was interviewing incredible people. But
Speaker 1: I remember sitting on my couch one day realizing that
Speaker 1: the gap between who I was and who I was
Speaker 1: pretending to be had become almost unbearable. Because at the time,
Speaker 1: I thought hiding was protecting me, and looking back, I
Speaker 1: don't think it was. Maybe I wasn't ready to share
Speaker 1: that chapter publicly, but I also think I underestimated people's
Speaker 1: capacity to meet me with compassion instead of judgment. And
Speaker 1: maybe you've experienced your own version of that gap in
Speaker 1: some way. Maybe what you're hiding is anxiety or a
Speaker 1: chronic illness, or a relationship that's falling apart, or grief, addiction,
Speaker 1: financial stress. Maybe you're a caretaker, or you're the one
Speaker 1: that plans everything and holds it together, and for once
Speaker 1: you just want to be the one that's not capable
Speaker 1: in your family. Maybe you're just simply exhausted trying to
Speaker 1: be the version of yourself that you think everyone else expects,
Speaker 1: or you've gone through a season like that. Whatever it
Speaker 1: is hiding always comes at a cost, and our guest
Speaker 1: today knows that cost so intimately, for millions of people,
Speaker 1: Jamie Lin Sigler will always be Meto soprano, the daughter
Speaker 1: we watched growing up on one of the greatest television
Speaker 1: shows ever made. But while the world saw a young
Speaker 1: actress living out a dream, Jamie was quietly navigating a
Speaker 1: reality almost no one knew about. At just twenty years old,
Speaker 1: she was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, and for years she
Speaker 1: believed that if anyone found out, everything she had worked
Speaker 1: for would disappear. So she kept going. She smiled, and
Speaker 1: she worked, and she showed up. All the while she
Speaker 1: carried the exhausting weight of pretending that she was okay,
Speaker 1: Until one day she realized something profound. The illness wasn't
Speaker 1: the only thing causing her pain. The silence and the
Speaker 1: shame of hiding it was just.
Speaker 2: To think about all of the extra layer of suffering
Speaker 2: that I placed upon myself because I didn't want anybody
Speaker 2: to know I have this, Like I all of the
Speaker 2: help that I never opened myself up to because of
Speaker 2: the shame I felt around having a mess. I was
Speaker 2: just like, I can't I can't do this anymore. I
Speaker 2: can't live like this anymore. I don't deserve to. I
Speaker 2: need to see how life can be a different way.
Speaker 1: Listening to Jamie, and especially reading her beautiful memoir and
Speaker 1: So it Is, I found myself unexpectedly emotional. Not just
Speaker 1: because of what she endured, although it is extraordinary, But
Speaker 1: what moved me was her refusal to give up on
Speaker 1: the thing that she loved. If you read the book,
Speaker 1: you'll understand what I'm saying. Jamie has this undeniable calling
Speaker 1: to perform, and when her diagnosis changed her body, she
Speaker 1: could have believed that that chapter of her life was over,
Speaker 1: but instead she did something so much harder. She accepted
Speaker 1: that she couldn't answer her calling in the same way
Speaker 1: she always had, and then she found a new way
Speaker 1: to answer it. And I think that's a lesson that's
Speaker 1: far bigger than acting. Life changes all of us. Bodies change,
Speaker 1: relationships and careers evolve, dreams get interrupted. The question isn't
Speaker 1: whether the path will change. The question is whether we'll
Speaker 1: mistake a detour for a dead end. Jamie didn't, and
Speaker 1: she also discovered something beautiful on the other side of
Speaker 1: telling the truth.
Speaker 2: We can feel so isolated in our pain because we
Speaker 2: feel like it will just connect us from everyone. But
Speaker 2: what I've learned is sharing my pain has connected me
Speaker 2: to everyone.
Speaker 1: The things she feared would isolate her became the very
Speaker 1: thing that connected her most deeply to other people. Our
Speaker 1: conversation today isn't really about multiple sclerosis. It's about the
Speaker 1: mass that we wear, the stories that Shane convinces us
Speaker 1: to believe, and what becomes possible when we finally tell
Speaker 1: the truth about who we are. It's time to question
Speaker 1: everything with Jamie Lynd Siegler. So, Jamie, I was looking
Speaker 1: at some of your messy episodes. It's the podcast you
Speaker 1: share with Christina Applegate, and one of them is called
Speaker 1: stop talking about It for a minute, and it made
Speaker 1: me laugh because it was such an honest way of saying,
Speaker 1: this is not the only thing I want to be
Speaker 1: talking about. So before we get into your full story,
Speaker 1: when you are tired of being profound or inspirational, what
Speaker 1: is your favorite completely unserious thing about you?
Speaker 2: And why? Do I think? It's reality TV? It's one
Speaker 2: hundreds of It was on the tip of my tongue.
Speaker 2: It's let's talk Bravo. Really, yeah, you know, I've been
Speaker 2: a fan of reality television and Bravo specifically for so long,
Speaker 2: Like I've watched from season one of all of these shows.
Speaker 2: I think it's it's a couple of reasons. One, I
Speaker 2: think it's like trauma drama at a safe distance, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean. But I also I find that
Speaker 2: people in general and in life, we were performative every day,
Speaker 2: right We're putting on a face for people, and many
Speaker 2: of these women put on a face for the camera,
Speaker 2: and that's just very natural. It's what we do. We
Speaker 2: want to present ourselves to be a certain way. But
Speaker 2: then there's always these just real, raw human moments that
Speaker 2: all of a sudden just get stripped down. It's like
Speaker 2: they forget the cameras are there, and I think it's
Speaker 2: so brave of these people to let us in. But
Speaker 2: it just it makes you feel so the when it's
Speaker 2: the fluff and when it's the unseerious. I don't know,
Speaker 2: it just reminds you that you can be that way
Speaker 2: too in life a little bit. I don't know. I
Speaker 2: think reality television I love seeing people's arcs, but it
Speaker 2: also can feel like it's just sort of the background
Speaker 2: of noise. I don't know. I just I enjoy it
Speaker 2: for so many reasons.
Speaker 1: And is it all of the shows like Housewives, Summer
Speaker 1: House correct, all of them, all of them.
Speaker 2: I can get down with all of them. I don't
Speaker 2: consider myself an expert on many things, but Bravo shows
Speaker 2: I can throw down with anyone.
Speaker 1: I so appreciate you sharing this because I'm the same,
Speaker 1: oh good, and it's like the outlier aspect of my personality.
Speaker 2: No one would guess it, and I'm kind of the
Speaker 2: same for you. Kind of yeah. I mean, I think
Speaker 2: if you if you talk to me for like more
Speaker 2: than fifteen minutes, it'll come up somehow. But yes, I
Speaker 2: think there's definitely a side of me that people have
Speaker 2: gotten to know and might be surprised to know that
Speaker 2: how much I love I'm not like a cinophile, Like
Speaker 2: I'm not watching like great classic movies. I'm watching episodes
Speaker 2: of Bravo that I've probably seen ten times, and I'm
Speaker 2: still enjoying it just as much. After listening to the episode,
Speaker 2: I was thinking, do I call you Jamie Lynn or
Speaker 2: do I call you James? You call me Jamie for share, okay?
Speaker 1: And because when you were younger, your agents thought your
Speaker 1: middle name made you sound more professional.
Speaker 2: Yes, Jamie Siegler just didn't sound like a star. I guess.
Speaker 1: Did that shift in names sort of feel like the
Speaker 1: beginning of the industry seeing you as a certain entity
Speaker 1: or in a certain way.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting because my first real, real professional
Speaker 2: job was the Sopranos, And as you can imagine, on
Speaker 2: one hand, that's incredible, how lucky, how amazing, but also
Speaker 2: how overwhelming. There was no ease into this business, ease
Speaker 2: into fame, ease into sort of getting to know who
Speaker 2: I was and how I could carry myself. I was
Speaker 2: really thrust into the big leagues and I was very
Speaker 2: green and an experience. So yes, that was just one
Speaker 2: tiny piece of me feeling like an impostor and I
Speaker 2: didn't quite know how to navigate Hollywood.
Speaker 1: It was one of the most like visceral parts of
Speaker 1: the book. I thought, like the first third when you're
Speaker 1: writing about how you're trying to find yourself, and there
Speaker 1: was a man named Dieter that you write about, and
Speaker 1: I don't know what his profession.
Speaker 2: Was was he was the president of the Wilhelmina modeling agency.
Speaker 2: He was a big fricking deal.
Speaker 1: And so you're talking to him and he's telling you
Speaker 1: basically like you need to look like a star. You're
Speaker 1: not ready to be a star yet, like we need
Speaker 1: to turn you into a which is sort of like
Speaker 1: the language that you would think like from movies, but
Speaker 1: it was actually happening with you know, and to be honest,
Speaker 1: it felt compassionate, like it felt like he cared.
Speaker 2: It felt like he wanted it for me me. And
Speaker 2: so also I was incredibly insecure and had a terrible
Speaker 2: narrator that went along in my head with me through
Speaker 2: my life. So it was almost like this very big,
Speaker 2: powerful man was confirming the things that I felt within me,
Speaker 2: but he was going to show me the way out.
Speaker 2: So anytime I had encounters like that, I wasn't angry.
Speaker 2: It was almost like yeah, I know, like, yeah, please
Speaker 2: show me the way. So I was so you know,
Speaker 2: vulnerable to like anything that anybody would tell me because
Speaker 2: I felt so ill equipped to navigate how to be
Speaker 2: in Hollywood and to be a star.
Speaker 1: It was so interesting reading about it because so much
Speaker 1: of what you shared of having an eating disorder and
Speaker 1: you had a nose job that you ended up regretting,
Speaker 1: and it was so much of what almost every teenage
Speaker 1: girl feels except for yours, was so heightened. How do
Speaker 1: you look back on that fifteen year old?
Speaker 2: You know? That was probably the biggest part of my
Speaker 2: healing in writing this, was having forgiveness for that fifteen
Speaker 2: year old and having like compassion for her. Up until
Speaker 2: very recently, I've just beaten myself up for so long
Speaker 2: about so many the choices that I made, and I
Speaker 2: never looked at myself as like young and innocent and normal,
Speaker 2: you know. I just really looked at myself like, uh,
Speaker 2: she just can't do the right thing. And so to
Speaker 2: be able to kind of go back through your life
Speaker 2: and almost see yourself as like the lead in your movie,
Speaker 2: you know, and if you think about any movie and
Speaker 2: you see the mistakes, but you see the journey and
Speaker 2: you see what they learned through all of it, and
Speaker 2: you root for them and you can be like, ah,
Speaker 2: don't do it, but you see what life gave them
Speaker 2: through that experience. I was really able to get that,
Speaker 2: especially for that young girl, for just just feeling for her,
Speaker 2: having her pain feel seen and validated, and that it
Speaker 2: wasn't in her head, that it wasn't her fault, and
Speaker 2: acknowledging what a big thing she was trying to navigate.
Speaker 2: Why also just being a teenager and that being hard
Speaker 2: in itself, you know, So it was I kind of
Speaker 2: broke this book for that girl and all of the
Speaker 2: pain and all of the insecurity that she felt and
Speaker 2: carried alone for so long.
Speaker 1: You've been on a journey of finding peace and compassion.
Speaker 1: Have you been able to find that compassion over time
Speaker 1: or was there anything in particular you did that you
Speaker 1: felt was really helpful?
Speaker 2: You know, I think it's and I've tried in the
Speaker 2: book to really take you along with me on all
Speaker 2: of the sort of moments and pieces of inspiration or
Speaker 2: you know, people that have taught me things throughout life
Speaker 2: that sort of have gotten me where I am. I
Speaker 2: wouldn't say it's like one moment. Working on yourself is
Speaker 2: really hard. I have had a privilege of having a
Speaker 2: lot of time and space to be able to do that.
Speaker 2: I think living with MS has been it's kind of
Speaker 2: the blessing. One of the blessings of having it is
Speaker 2: that it's called me back to myself and made me
Speaker 2: pay attention to myself instead of sort of bulldozing forward
Speaker 2: and bypassing feelings and emotions and experiences and not wanting
Speaker 2: to deal with them. I really think had I not
Speaker 2: had MS, that's how I would have gone through my
Speaker 2: life until something you know, happened and would have forced
Speaker 2: me to do that. So, you know, I just think
Speaker 2: that there's it's just been this kind of gradual undoing.
Speaker 2: I've had big aha moments, like when I met our
Speaker 2: friend Ryan and he taught me about a course in
Speaker 2: miracles with for me felt like something that I could
Speaker 2: connect to, something that could give me my feet on
Speaker 2: the ground, a foundation of faith. There's so many ways
Speaker 2: for people to find that that just and to be mine,
Speaker 2: but just sort of being open to life being another way.
Speaker 2: And what I will say about all the things that
Speaker 2: have helped me shift my perspective and helped me. It's
Speaker 2: not like any of my circumstances changed once I found
Speaker 2: those things to help me. It's just my perspective shift. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And that, I think, more than anything, is what I
Speaker 2: hope that people can get from that, the possibility for themselves,
Speaker 2: because pain is inevitable. Life is going to continue to
Speaker 2: bring you experiences that are there to make you grow
Speaker 2: and evolve. But the story that we tell ourselves about
Speaker 2: that pain, the story that we tell ourselves about the
Speaker 2: experience of who we are because of it and who
Speaker 2: they are, that's what we're real suffering lies, and that's
Speaker 2: where our real power lies. To rewrite that. We don't
Speaker 2: have to be stuck in suffering. We can alchemize our
Speaker 2: pain into something more. And for decades I didn't know
Speaker 2: how to do that. But in the past, you know,
Speaker 2: five six, seven years, I've really committed to that, and
Speaker 2: it was really the drive to write this memoir and
Speaker 2: to put it out. It's not about me. I have
Speaker 2: plenty of love and validation in my life. My pain
Speaker 2: has been seen and validated by everyone that I know
Speaker 2: and care about. I want people to see themselves in
Speaker 2: my story and think if she feels so comfortable sharing
Speaker 2: these deep, dark, painful parts of herself. Why can't I?
Speaker 1: Wow, I think that's so powerful. I saw parts of
Speaker 1: myself in your story throughout the whole book, and we've
Speaker 1: had incredibly different life experiences, so I do feel people
Speaker 1: are going to feel that. And it was almost a
Speaker 1: permission slip, because sometimes it's like it feels embarrassing to be,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh in pain that way.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is these are these are the stories
Speaker 2: that I was the most embarrassed about, the most shameful about,
Speaker 2: the things that I thought no one would love me,
Speaker 2: no one would accept me if they ever knew about this,
Speaker 2: which one was the hardest to write. I think everything
Speaker 2: about my first marriage was really difficult. I felt like
Speaker 2: such a cliche. I felt like such a loser. I
Speaker 2: felt like such a crazy person, you know, like sometimes
Speaker 2: you've have these toxic relationships in your life that literally
Speaker 2: make you feel like you're crazy. And that was really difficult.
Speaker 2: Also because I didn't want to make my ex one dimensional,
Speaker 2: like he wasn't all bad, you know, they obviously there
Speaker 2: were things about him that made me feel safe and
Speaker 2: loved and secure. To spend five and a half years
Speaker 2: with him to marry him, even though I was very
Speaker 2: young and innocent and naive, and so I really wanted
Speaker 2: to be conscious, you know, in writing this book. This
Speaker 2: wasn't about a takedown of anyone. This was about sort
Speaker 2: of freeing myself from the stories that have held me down.
Speaker 2: And I had a girlfriend tell me that one of
Speaker 2: the gifts of expressing your vulnerability, whether it be in
Speaker 2: a book or any medium, it doesn't have to be
Speaker 2: on a grand scale, is that you no longer have
Speaker 2: to carry your pain alone. And when you do that
Speaker 2: and other people see themselves in it, it just it
Speaker 2: lightens everything. I did a book signing a couple of
Speaker 2: weeks ago here in New York, and it was like
Speaker 2: seventy five eighty women, all who had read the book,
Speaker 2: none of which I'd known, and I'd never been in
Speaker 2: a room like that, and they were all just so
Speaker 2: open and ready to share everything that they've been through
Speaker 2: and all of their pain. And it was just so
Speaker 2: beautiful to see people ready to free themselves of that.
Speaker 2: And so if my sharing my deep pain allowed them
Speaker 2: to do that, a what a gift. It felt bigger
Speaker 2: than me. It felt like this was something I had
Speaker 2: to do again, not for me, but as part of
Speaker 2: my service in the universe, you know.
Speaker 1: And what an ode to your capacity to be able
Speaker 1: to hold everything you hold on your own and to
Speaker 1: step in a room of eighty women who wanted to
Speaker 1: share theirs nicks.
Speaker 2: Thank you. It's I try to remind people and remind myself.
Speaker 2: You know that this is a place I never thought
Speaker 2: I would ever be able to be. You know, I
Speaker 2: come from a line of women where like, suck it up,
Speaker 2: put on your lipstick, never let them see you sweat,
Speaker 2: don't let them see your pain. That's your weakness, Be
Speaker 2: careful of women, don't trust anyone. And now I'm like
Speaker 2: open hearted, hard in the sleeve, and it just feels.
Speaker 2: It feels so much better. It feels I've never felt
Speaker 2: so confident. And I think it's just because I've I'm
Speaker 2: living in my truth and not hiding any parts of
Speaker 2: myself because I don't feel I need to anymore.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: I got chills when you talked about the women and
Speaker 1: your family, because you're brave enough to break the cycle,
Speaker 1: which is really hard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, But you know what was really cool. I
Speaker 2: was nervous for my mom to read the book because
Speaker 2: I mean, look, she's reading things about me and my
Speaker 2: perspective that I've never shared with her because I didn't
Speaker 2: know how without feeling like I was going to hurt
Speaker 2: her feelings or it would be you know, misinterpreted. And
Speaker 2: one of the reactions she had when she first read
Speaker 2: the book was she said, I'm really proud of myself.
Speaker 2: I did the best I could with raising you with
Speaker 2: what I had been through. And I also think that
Speaker 2: I was able to allow my mom's pain to be
Speaker 2: seen at her difficult especially child like to be acknowledged.
Speaker 2: I don't think she's ever had that before. So it
Speaker 2: was also a really beautiful gift that came from all
Speaker 2: of this is for my mom to feel the pride
Speaker 2: that she deserves to feel as a mother. I think,
Speaker 2: you know, as moms, I think we can all feel
Speaker 2: like we're not good enough, or we could have done
Speaker 2: this or that better. I go through that daily, you know,
Speaker 2: in my mind. But I think when you care, that
Speaker 2: shows that you're a good mom. And so I'm really
Speaker 2: glad that I was able to give her that opportunity
Speaker 2: for her to see how amazing of a mom she was,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So when I finished your memoir, it felt like
Speaker 1: an exhale.
Speaker 2: Oh and the title.
Speaker 1: Is and so it is, and you used to write
Speaker 1: it in sharpie yes on your wrist.
Speaker 2: It's tattooed now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so your title is a nod to an affirmation
Speaker 1: that you made, that you settled about the things that
Speaker 1: happen in our lives that we can't change. And you
Speaker 1: said it took you thirty years to find that level
Speaker 1: of self acceptance. What does it feel like now that
Speaker 1: you're no longer having to perform in your day to
Speaker 1: day life.
Speaker 2: I just feel like I finally know who I am. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I finally know. I feel safe to express myself in
Speaker 2: every way. I feel safe to advocate for myself. I
Speaker 2: feel safe to make mistakes, to say I don't know,
Speaker 2: to not be perfect. And I think with all of that,
Speaker 2: it just makes me feel like I walk with more
Speaker 2: faith now and trust. It doesn't mean that difficult things
Speaker 2: might not be around the corner. I was in the
Speaker 2: middle of writing this book when bo got sick, when
Speaker 2: my son was sick, and which allowed the book to
Speaker 2: sort of even take a whole different shape because it
Speaker 2: begins and ends with him. So, I mean I thought
Speaker 2: I was like in my like closing the loop, like
Speaker 2: ready to like share, and then the biggest, most traumatic
Speaker 2: thing in my life land it in my lap. So
Speaker 2: I don't know what's around the corner, but I move
Speaker 2: forward with faith, knowing that I know who I am,
Speaker 2: I know my tribe, I know I have people to
Speaker 2: call upon, and I'm not afraid to do so. And
Speaker 2: then I just don't have to go through this life alone.
Speaker 2: We're not meant to do that. We can feel so
Speaker 2: isolated in our pain and so afraid to share because
Speaker 2: we feel like it will disconnect us from everyone. But
Speaker 2: what I've learned is sharing my pain has connected me
Speaker 2: to everyone. It's the opposite. If I met.
Speaker 1: Jamie at twenty two at a party, would you have
Speaker 1: been a character or would you have been a version
Speaker 1: of yourself?
Speaker 2: I would have thought I was me, But looking back,
Speaker 2: I think I was always playing a character. I was
Speaker 2: always trying to find myself. I mean I always I
Speaker 2: was always kind. That was always the most important thing.
Speaker 2: Like I love people, I love connecting with people. I
Speaker 2: would have looked you deep, been your eyes and giving
Speaker 2: you a genuine smile and loved you from the start
Speaker 2: and been your friend no matter what. But I would
Speaker 2: not have shared with you any of my pain. I
Speaker 2: would not have shared with you I don't feel good
Speaker 2: in this outfit even or I don't feel like I
Speaker 2: look good or does he like me? Like I just
Speaker 2: never I never shared what was going on in my
Speaker 2: head because I just assumed it was would be a
Speaker 2: turnoff to people. So in some ways a character, But
Speaker 2: in many ways I thought authentic because I wasn't even
Speaker 2: sort of admitting what I was going through to myself. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that makes sense.
Speaker 1: I remember in twenty sixteen when your announcement or the
Speaker 1: headline came out that you told the world that you
Speaker 1: had MS. I was working at Entertainment Tonight Online, so
Speaker 1: I remember the newsroom that day.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: And I remember thinking the only other person I had
Speaker 1: remembered talking about it was Montell Williams, and I think
Speaker 1: it was like nineteen ninety nine, and I had heard
Speaker 1: reverberations of it. I wasn't really old enough to understand.
Speaker 1: And then Terry gar shared hers in the early two thousands,
Speaker 1: But you were the first young, famous, working actor that
Speaker 1: I had seen talk about an MS diagnosis simultaneous to
Speaker 1: navigating your own career and dreams and life and love
Speaker 1: and eventually motherhood. I think you represented a whole new
Speaker 1: generation of actors that were managing chronic illness while navigating careers.
Speaker 1: What led up to you sharing publicly in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 1: that makes me emotional.
Speaker 2: Why. I don't think I saw it that way really
Speaker 2: at that time. No, it was just what led me
Speaker 2: to It was I just I couldn't bear holding the
Speaker 2: secret anymore. Everyone around me, my close circle for a
Speaker 2: number of years prior, were really you know, they didn't
Speaker 2: push me, but every once in a while they pick
Speaker 2: jab why don't you even if it was at work,
Speaker 2: They're like, why don't you just tell people at work?
Speaker 2: You're making it so much harder for yourself. No, no, no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: you don't understand. You don't understand. I would always just
Speaker 2: feel like people didn't get it. I knew that it
Speaker 2: would be the end of my life. I knew it
Speaker 2: would be the end of my career, and they just
Speaker 2: didn't get it. And I had a two year old
Speaker 2: son at the time, and you know, at that point
Speaker 2: I was having to sort of, you know, explain to him,
Speaker 2: not why mommy couldn't run or mommy needed to sit sometimes,
Speaker 2: but just just basically saying, matter of factly, mommy can't run,
Speaker 2: so mommy, mommy needs to just be the pitcher when
Speaker 2: we play baseball, or the goalie when we play hockey,
Speaker 2: or mommy needs to sit down sometimes. Like he didn't
Speaker 2: need the explanation at that time, but I thought about, Okay,
Speaker 2: as he gets older and he's going to start asking why,
Speaker 2: am I going to tell him why? But that he
Speaker 2: can't tell anyone that he has to hold this secret
Speaker 2: for me, Like what is that teaching my son? What
Speaker 2: is that teaching him about the world. Also, the MS
Speaker 2: at that point had you know, progressed enough to a
Speaker 2: point where I couldn't hide it. It was very clear
Speaker 2: that something was going on with my body. I was
Speaker 2: dealing with some type of physical disability, even though I
Speaker 2: wasn't ready to say that I was disabled at the
Speaker 2: time because for some reason that label felt negative to me.
Speaker 2: I've been able, thankfully to you know, rearrange my thoughts
Speaker 2: and feelings around that. So all of those things were
Speaker 2: kind of coming to a head. And then one of
Speaker 2: my best friends, Lindsay, was seeing this hypnotist at the
Speaker 2: time for her own reasons, and much like many of
Speaker 2: my other friends, who have just thought about me?
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: She brought me up to him one day and said,
Speaker 2: you know, one of my best friends lives with MS.
Speaker 2: She lives with daily pain, Like, do you think you
Speaker 2: could help her with that? And he said absolutely, I'd
Speaker 2: love to talk to her. So I would go see anyone,
Speaker 2: anyone that could possibly help me, I would go see.
Speaker 2: So I remember I drove up to his house in
Speaker 2: Santa Monica, parked my car, and he was waiting for
Speaker 2: me at the top of his driveway and I looked
Speaker 2: down at the ground and I walked up to him,
Speaker 2: and I immediately before even saying like, Hi, how are
Speaker 2: you anything, he was like, why are you looking at
Speaker 2: the ground? Why won't you look at me when you walk?
Speaker 2: And it was so confronting, but I don't know if
Speaker 2: it was just his presence, his energy. I wasn't angry
Speaker 2: at it. I wasn't I didn't feel anything negative around it.
Speaker 2: I felt then immediately like I had to answer honestly,
Speaker 2: and I said I don't like to watch people watch
Speaker 2: me walk, and he said, okay, after you and I
Speaker 2: remember walking in front of him and I started instinctively
Speaker 2: doing that thing where I would hold my breath and
Speaker 2: try to walk as normal and straight as I could,
Speaker 2: because that's what I would do. I wanted to always
Speaker 2: present as better than I ever was, you know, never
Speaker 2: show people exactly how I was feeling or how disabled
Speaker 2: I was. I'm going to try to look better for everyone.
Speaker 2: I walked into his office and he pointed to this
Speaker 2: like giant, old leather lazy boy chair, and I sat
Speaker 2: in an across from him, and he said, you feel
Speaker 2: so much shame about the fact that you have MS,
Speaker 2: and I was just speechless. I never even considered the
Speaker 2: fact that I was embarrassed that I had this, That
Speaker 2: I thought that my having a mess and people knowing
Speaker 2: that I had it meant that I was inherently bad
Speaker 2: or I did something wrong to deserve it, not realizing
Speaker 2: that that actually was my way of thinking. I subconsciously
Speaker 2: felt all of those things. So it was almost like
Speaker 2: he opened the door of the way that I needed
Speaker 2: to really address this. What I really needed to see
Speaker 2: was like, forget the MS, like your feelings around it
Speaker 2: need to be healed. All of my focus prior to
Speaker 2: that was like how do I fix the body, How
Speaker 2: do I fix the walking? How do I fix my leg?
Speaker 2: How do I make sure that I don't pee my pants.
Speaker 2: I never thought about addressing me and my heart and
Speaker 2: my emotions around living with a chronic illness. It just
Speaker 2: didn't I don't know if I thought I deserved it,
Speaker 2: you know, I thought it was possible. It was just
Speaker 2: never a part of any type of healing that I considered.
Speaker 2: So we talked for like ten fifteen minutes. He put
Speaker 2: me under a hypnosis. I don't know what happened, and
Speaker 2: then when I came out, he said, Okay, I'd love
Speaker 2: to see you again in like a week or two.
Speaker 2: We'll make a plan. I remember I got in my
Speaker 2: car and it was like you ever have moments in
Speaker 2: your life where you were like so incredibly present, Like
Speaker 2: sometimes a trauma will do that to you, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, where you're like like you can't go
Speaker 2: into the future, you can't go in the past, You're
Speaker 2: just kind of floating. If I got in my car,
Speaker 2: I didn't even look at my phone, I didn't turn
Speaker 2: on the music, and I started driving home and all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, I remember the first thing I passed
Speaker 2: was the Sony lot where I've gone on auditions many times,
Speaker 2: and I started getting these memories of when I would
Speaker 2: go on these auditions. Let's say my audition was at
Speaker 2: two PM. I would get there at one o'clock. I
Speaker 2: didn't have a handicapped blacker then because nobody knew, so
Speaker 2: I was like, you know, try to circle and circle
Speaker 2: and find the closest I could, and then I would,
Speaker 2: you know, pretend I was on my phone walking through
Speaker 2: the lot and like walk a couple of steps and
Speaker 2: then rest, and then walk a little bit more and rest.
Speaker 2: Because nobody knew, I didn't ever think to ask for
Speaker 2: help of a closer parking spot or a golf cart ride.
Speaker 2: So I'm walking all across the slot to the audition
Speaker 2: to manage my body so that when I get there,
Speaker 2: I'm not limping, so I'm not given away, and just
Speaker 2: to think about all of the extra layer of suffering
Speaker 2: that I placed upon myself because I didn't want anybody
Speaker 2: to know I have this, Like I all of the
Speaker 2: help that I never opened myself up to because of
Speaker 2: the shame I felt around having a mess like that
Speaker 2: was just one example. And then all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: just like all of these memories came flooding back, and
Speaker 2: I was just like, I can't I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 2: I can't live thick this anymore. I don't deserve to.
Speaker 2: I need to see how life can be a different way.
Speaker 2: And if that means that I don't act anymore, then
Speaker 2: I don't act anymore like I I I can't feel
Speaker 2: shameful on top of already what I'm feeling from MS.
Speaker 1: I just want to add one thing, because if people,
Speaker 1: if people read your book, they'll hear.
Speaker 2: How much you love acting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so to say to yourself, like, I can't live
Speaker 1: like this anymore, it's okay if I don't act. I
Speaker 1: think it's actually like a weightier moment than people may understand,
Speaker 1: because you talk about so often being on stage and
Speaker 1: like it's the only time that you weren't in pain
Speaker 1: that you felt most like yourself.
Speaker 2: It was clear to me that from a young age
Speaker 2: you had a calling. Thanks for saying that, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I didn't even think about that how much. In the
Speaker 2: book I do reference that, I know what, SO felt
Speaker 2: that so deeply throughout the whole thing.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 2: I was asked to sing in this benefit the other night.
Speaker 2: My friend Craig Thomas, he's one of the creators of
Speaker 2: How I Met Your Mother, his son was born with
Speaker 2: a heart defect that caused many developmental issues with his son.
Speaker 2: And there's a doctor who has really been instrumental in
Speaker 2: their son's healing and journey, and the benefit concert was
Speaker 2: to raise money for his research. Every year they do
Speaker 2: it and they invite guest stars that were on How
Speaker 2: I Met Your Mother, and I was once on it,
Speaker 2: so they were asked me this year. Anyway, I say
Speaker 2: this all to say that I got on stage the
Speaker 2: Saturday night and I sang three songs, and my body
Speaker 2: showed up for me. I stood the whole time with ease.
Speaker 2: I was vibrating. I was happy. I was doing something
Speaker 2: that like I love that I don't do anymore because
Speaker 2: of the grief I have around not being able to
Speaker 2: perform the way I and said whatever all those different reasons.
Speaker 2: And my kids came and they've never seen me like that,
Speaker 2: They've never seen me perform. And when I got off
Speaker 2: this stage, my eight year old, who's not like Bo.
Speaker 2: My older one, like Bo's very emotional and very expressive
Speaker 2: like Jack, my little one is just kind of very
Speaker 2: like you know, he hugs from the side. He's just
Speaker 2: more reserved, kind of like my husband and he was like, Mom,
Speaker 2: I have never seen you happy before. Like I think
Speaker 2: he was trying like he had never seen me like
Speaker 2: that before. He goes, I was shaking watching you, and
Speaker 2: it just it makes me feel alive when I perform.
Speaker 2: And I think it's taken me a lot of time
Speaker 2: to accept and understand that I can still be a
Speaker 2: performer along with this. But you broke the seal. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and sometimes you have to, you know. And I think
Speaker 2: that that's what other people I hope, So I hope.
Speaker 2: So I think that's also what I thought about a
Speaker 2: lot in the book, is this. I hope that I
Speaker 2: hope that any other young person in any field understands
Speaker 2: that we all have to make pivots in life, you
Speaker 2: know sometimes, and a diagnosis doesn't mean that your dreams
Speaker 2: are over, just means you have to find a different way.
Speaker 2: And I've it's it's been a slow journey of you know.
Speaker 2: When I finally did come out about it, I still
Speaker 2: was operating like I used to, where Okay, now people know,
Speaker 2: but I'm not a problem. Don't worry. I can do it.
Speaker 2: We can work around this. Like I could do a
Speaker 2: couple of steps where I look able bodied and I
Speaker 2: don't blame anyone. Everyone was very supportive of what I
Speaker 2: felt comfortable doing. I still wanted to seem like an
Speaker 2: able bodied person. I didn't want people to know I
Speaker 2: had MS. I'm playing a character they don't have MS.
Speaker 2: We can't show this right. And it's been over the
Speaker 2: last decade of you know, me being public with it,
Speaker 2: me finally getting to a place just this year where
Speaker 2: now every job I go into, every audition, every meeting,
Speaker 2: I'm like, I have MS. I walk with a limp,
Speaker 2: I'm physically disabled. If you're okay with that, great, but
Speaker 2: I cannot perform a body and give you the best
Speaker 2: performance that I can give. So as long as you're
Speaker 2: okay with me walking the way I walk and moving
Speaker 2: the way I move, great. I know it's not going
Speaker 2: to work for everyone, and I have to accept that
Speaker 2: and where you're at. But it's where I'm at because
Speaker 2: I can't do it the way I had been doing
Speaker 2: it for so long, where basically I was so concerned
Speaker 2: with getting through the physical part of the day and
Speaker 2: not getting the freedom and the enjoyment of acting anymore.
Speaker 2: And so again, while that limits me, it's the only
Speaker 2: way that I can do it. And to me how
Speaker 2: I can really represent others like me? You know you can.
Speaker 2: People have been receptive. Yes, yes, I just did a
Speaker 2: couple of episodes on one of my favorite shows, it's
Speaker 2: called Tires on Netflix with Shane Gillis, and I told
Speaker 2: the director John McKeever like before we started, I was like, listen,
Speaker 2: I have it. He's like, I know, what's cool. We
Speaker 2: don't have to talk about it. You're you and I
Speaker 2: did it. I did the role. We never talked about it,
Speaker 2: and it was so beautiful and amazing and just another
Speaker 2: moment that I never imagined.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I never imagined that I would be in a comedy
Speaker 2: and be improving with some of these like cool stand
Speaker 2: ups and all this stuff, and as me in this body.
Speaker 2: It's been really incredible. And you know, again, ten years ago,
Speaker 2: I thought that I was making this announcement in my
Speaker 2: career would be over. And to see me still, you know,
Speaker 2: pounding the pavement and doing it since then, I feel
Speaker 2: a lot of pride about that. How do you feel
Speaker 2: about you know?
Speaker 1: When I worked in entertainment news, I saw how when
Speaker 1: there would be certain headlines that would repeat over and
Speaker 1: over again, they became somebody's story. Yeah, it was like
Speaker 1: the rest of them sort of like floated away in
Speaker 1: the media's eyes. Have you thought about MS being your
Speaker 1: story and how do you think about that?
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm so glad you brought that up. So that
Speaker 2: was also one of the things that was holding me
Speaker 2: back from talking about it because I felt like MS
Speaker 2: would enter into the room before I did, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, People saw me like, oh, she has MS,
Speaker 2: you know, and then like looking for how it affected me.
Speaker 2: I think I was projecting a lot of my own
Speaker 2: judgments on myself onto other people and the world. But
Speaker 2: this is the entertainment industry. And even when I was
Speaker 2: promoting my book when it first came out, every first
Speaker 2: question would be like you hid your MS or something,
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, I feel like that's such
Speaker 2: a small part of the book, Like it's not about MS,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. That just happened to be
Speaker 2: one of the things that happened to me awlong in
Speaker 2: my life and one of the things that has allowed
Speaker 2: me to grow and find myself. But yes, I mean,
Speaker 2: and even as recently as when I got to play
Speaker 2: a doctor with MS on Grey's Anatomy, which was incredible
Speaker 2: and amazing and like so grateful for them for me
Speaker 2: to tell this story and to play this woman in
Speaker 2: her power in her field that had to pivot herself
Speaker 2: to doing robotic surgeries, you know, because of the way
Speaker 2: that MS has affected her. It was so much about that,
Speaker 2: and even with my podcast Messy that I actually had
Speaker 2: to take a step back. I even called Christina, I
Speaker 2: called my reps and I said, I'm starting to feel
Speaker 2: like MS is my currency with the world, and I
Speaker 2: can't just have that be that. I have to feel
Speaker 2: like I can go on interviews, I can play roles
Speaker 2: that aren't about MS, like because that's not my day
Speaker 2: to day life. That's not I can go a week
Speaker 2: without talking about the disease. Everyone around me, you know,
Speaker 2: everyone in my family. This is just part of me.
Speaker 2: It's not who I am. It doesn't define me. And
Speaker 2: so I've had to learn and accept that that's just
Speaker 2: sometimes what will lead an interview. But then I try
Speaker 2: to just take the opportunity to remind people that this
Speaker 2: does not define me. But yes, it is one hundred
Speaker 2: percent been something that I've thought about, been concerned about,
Speaker 2: But in the end of the day, I cannot control it.
Speaker 2: I can only control how I feel about it and
Speaker 2: how I move forward with it, and it has been nice.
Speaker 2: With Messy in particular, I've been able to share in
Speaker 2: a really honest way that I've never been able to before,
Speaker 2: which I actually think really opened me up to be
Speaker 2: able to be as honest and raw in the book
Speaker 2: as I was able to be, because even when I
Speaker 2: talked about MS for a while, I still wanted to
Speaker 2: present as hirable and like I'm okay though, and so
Speaker 2: finally in the podcast, I was like, no, these people
Speaker 2: want the real, they want to be seen, they want
Speaker 2: to feel validated in their experience. So I'm like, really,
Speaker 2: just going to share how this affects me has just,
Speaker 2: I think just opened me up even more. And then
Speaker 2: I think even opened up me even more as an actress,
Speaker 2: because to feel comfortable in your skin, to feel comfortable
Speaker 2: in your truth, to feel authentic has really translated into
Speaker 2: my creativity as well.
Speaker 1: I also feel you and Christina have a dynamic that
Speaker 1: brings more out of one another.
Speaker 2: Yes, one hundred percent. One hundred percent.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that she's given you some words and
Speaker 1: you've given her some words that you hold on to.
Speaker 1: Is there anything that comes to mind that she said
Speaker 1: to you that you really think about, or vice versa.
Speaker 2: I mean, I remember when we were starting the podcast
Speaker 2: and she was like, Jamie, We're going to be real.
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about it all. I'm going to
Speaker 2: talk about everything that I'm feeling. And I was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I will meet you where you're at. Let's go, let's
Speaker 2: do it. And it felt really liberating. And the thing
Speaker 2: about podcasting, right, it's just like us on a zoom
Speaker 2: on our little mic.
Speaker 1: So it's like, you forget if there was like millions
Speaker 1: or thousands of people listening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's kind of nice and to feel like
Speaker 2: to have that little tinge of like, oh god, everybody's
Speaker 2: just going to hear what we just talked about for
Speaker 2: an hour and then it's like, great, what do I
Speaker 2: have to hide anymore? It's really it felt like it
Speaker 2: was kind of like the last puzzle piece to this
Speaker 2: chapter of just me really just letting it all out
Speaker 2: there and being unafraid and unattached to any type of response.
Speaker 1: We spoke about the title of your book earlier, so
Speaker 1: it was actually the subtitle that stood out to me
Speaker 1: so much. It is a memoir of acceptance. And hope,
Speaker 1: And I felt like you were saying, you wrote this
Speaker 1: book to turn a page.
Speaker 2: Was that write at all? Yes, one hundred percent? What
Speaker 2: were you turning? I'm able to sort of acknowledge everything
Speaker 2: that I've been through, have such forgiveness and gratitude for
Speaker 2: it all, and understand that in this particular moment in
Speaker 2: my life, I can pick and choose what I want
Speaker 2: to take with me and what I want to just
Speaker 2: leave behind. And so that turning of that page, it's
Speaker 2: like I can leave those stories that I've told myself
Speaker 2: about who I am and what I am and being
Speaker 2: good enough or not good enough behind, and I can
Speaker 2: take the lessons and I can take the experience, and
Speaker 2: I can take the reminders too. Even in my deepest,
Speaker 2: darkest moments, like in retelling the story, I see the
Speaker 2: little blessings that were around me, and I see where
Speaker 2: it led me, all the sliding door moments, and I
Speaker 2: just I can move forward again now, like I was saying,
Speaker 2: of just of knowing that that is life and also
Speaker 2: knowing that I believe in. This is the words that
Speaker 2: I use, and we can all use different words and
Speaker 2: ways of talking about it, but like God will put
Speaker 2: me in front of the road that I'm meant to
Speaker 2: go down, but I'm not going to go down it
Speaker 2: until I have the experiences and the knowledge to walk
Speaker 2: that path. And so knowing that I will not miss
Speaker 2: anything that's for me, but that I'm not going to
Speaker 2: do it until I'm ready, and just trusting that, like
Speaker 2: I'm I'm in school still, you know, but what I mean,
Speaker 2: and it might not be my time, it might not
Speaker 2: be yet. My husband's favorite thing to tell me always
Speaker 2: is your story isn't over yet, and it's and it's
Speaker 2: a true reminder, he put it. I'm like one of
Speaker 2: my you know, moments where I was sort of feeling
Speaker 2: down and hopeless about things, he had a little posted
Speaker 2: on my pillow that just said that, and your story
Speaker 2: is not over. And I know. There's something about post
Speaker 2: its that are such good reminders. I don't know if
Speaker 2: it's a bright color. It's just feels because they're very intentional, right,
Speaker 2: it just feels like I need to remember this, whether
Speaker 2: it's an appointment or something like that. You're right, post
Speaker 2: its are They're very specific and pointed, and they're like
Speaker 2: this matters.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's a note to self. I have them on
Speaker 1: my bathroom mirror, and I think about love it some reason.
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 1: I loved reading about your relationship with James Gandolphini. I
Speaker 1: think anybody who's a Sopranos fan would love reading about it.
Speaker 1: But also when I was ten, I had a friend
Speaker 1: who you met, Carly, and her family had an inn
Speaker 1: at the Emmys for some reason, and they had three
Speaker 1: girls in their family and each girl got to bring
Speaker 1: a friend. So I went to the Emmys and my
Speaker 1: dad loved the Sopranos and I was too young to
Speaker 1: really be watching. I was ten, but I would like
Speaker 1: try and stay up late and watch and hide and
Speaker 1: I would pretend I was asleep.
Speaker 2: So I love James Gandolfini.
Speaker 1: And at the end of the show, I ran up
Speaker 1: to him and I was like, I didn't know his
Speaker 1: real name, and I was like, Tony, Tony, I love
Speaker 1: your show, and in like the accent, he was like,
Speaker 1: how old are you? And I was like I'm ten,
Speaker 1: and he goes, what the fuck are you doing watching
Speaker 1: my show?
Speaker 2: I told you that's what he would say. That's so fun,
Speaker 2: and I was like, you really are, Tony. It was
Speaker 2: like a perfect moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I loved the way you described him, It
Speaker 1: just there was so much love and admiration there. It's
Speaker 1: all I feel when you bring up his name, when
Speaker 1: his face pops in my head. Why not feel like
Speaker 1: you were comfortable telling him about your diagnosis because that
Speaker 1: felt meaningful time.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, because from the beginning, I just felt like
Speaker 2: he always was watching me, but in a really beautiful way,
Speaker 2: you know, like I just felt like I can remember
Speaker 2: moments where you know, I was in my own head
Speaker 2: like kind of looking down the ground, thinking about whether
Speaker 2: it was the scene or what was going on, and
Speaker 2: I would, you know, then you know, come out of
Speaker 2: my haze and look around, and he would be watching me.
Speaker 2: He observed me, and I didn't share myself openly or honestly.
Speaker 2: Then I thought I did a good job of hiding it,
Speaker 2: but not to him. So there were there were little
Speaker 2: just moments throughout the show where he would, you know,
Speaker 2: even just be a good kid, you good kid, And
Speaker 2: it was it was almost like he was laying the
Speaker 2: foundation work for me to eventually when I was bubbling
Speaker 2: over and just needed to tell someone, him being the
Speaker 2: place to land because he had been watching me for
Speaker 2: so long and knowing that something was up but too
Speaker 2: elegant to pry or push, respected me enough to let
Speaker 2: me come to him. I guess I don't know if
Speaker 2: he ever thought I would. But you know, in that
Speaker 2: one moment that I talk about in the book where
Speaker 2: my life felt like it was imploding, the MS was
Speaker 2: really starting to present itself. I was going through a
Speaker 2: divorce and not telling anyone. I was getting called from
Speaker 2: set that I wasn't doing a good job acting and
Speaker 2: I wasn't telling anybody but anything that was going on
Speaker 2: that He finally just pulled me aside and was like,
Speaker 2: something is up. And then I just unloaded all of
Speaker 2: it on him, And I remember his first reaction was,
Speaker 2: You're just a kid. And he always reminded me of that.
Speaker 2: He always tried to remind me like, you don't have
Speaker 2: to know it all, you don't have to have it
Speaker 2: all figured out. You're so young, and this is so big.
Speaker 2: I remember him one time, I don't know where we were.
Speaker 2: We were at I don't know if it was an
Speaker 2: award show or whatever, and camera's red carpet whatever, and
Speaker 2: I was doing my thing and I came off and
Speaker 2: he was like, this is a lot for you being
Speaker 2: the young girl on this big show. That's a lot
Speaker 2: for you, and that was it. And it was just
Speaker 2: such a small but significant acknowledgement of that. I didn't
Speaker 2: even understand or ever have the space or thought to
Speaker 2: acknowledge for myself of what I was having to carry
Speaker 2: at that time. And he always he always knew it
Speaker 2: and made it clear that he acknowledged it, which he
Speaker 2: didn't have to. I mean, he was the star of
Speaker 2: the show. He had so much on his plate and
Speaker 2: there was always room for him and space for him
Speaker 2: to support me.
Speaker 1: It makes it even more impressive that that's sort of
Speaker 1: the type of leader that he wanted to be.
Speaker 2: I just I can't say enough amazing things. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's I don't know if this is always the case,
Speaker 2: but it's just so rare to have such a talent
Speaker 2: like that, like big, big talent. He had no desire
Speaker 2: to be a star, you know, was just it was.
Speaker 2: It was conflicting for him to be as famous as
Speaker 2: he was because he loved acting and had such respect
Speaker 2: for the craft, but like did not want to be
Speaker 2: acknowledged outside of that. You know, he wanted to do
Speaker 2: a good job and put out good work and then disappear.
Speaker 2: But then also to be so kind. He really took
Speaker 2: his role as the leader of that show seriously. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and he was the best. Do you take any pieces
Speaker 2: of Meadow with you?
Speaker 1: Did you feel, because there's moments in the book where
Speaker 1: you talk about like almost forgetting that you're not her
Speaker 1: or that he's not your father. Yeah, and then you
Speaker 1: pop back into reality.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mean I played her for ten years, right, so,
Speaker 2: and I created her in very many ways, Like she
Speaker 2: really in the beginning came from me, Like my sassy
Speaker 2: at self was through Meadow in that pilot and you know,
Speaker 2: laying my accent on thick and like fighting with my
Speaker 2: mom and fighting with my dad and rolling my eyes
Speaker 2: at my brother, like that was all very natural to me.
Speaker 2: But then obviously as the show evolved and our lives
Speaker 2: were very different, she became kind of this like alter
Speaker 2: ego for me to escape into. She was confident, she
Speaker 2: was smart, she was self assured, she expressed herself, she
Speaker 2: advocated for herself in ways that I had no idea
Speaker 2: how to, and so she was sort of like this
Speaker 2: escape for me. But then also I loved Jim and
Speaker 2: Edie and Robert so much, and there was such an
Speaker 2: alchemy amongst the four of us, and when we'd do
Speaker 2: our scenes together. And also I just like there were
Speaker 2: times when I just like I wanted Jim to be
Speaker 2: my dad. I wanted it to be real. I wanted
Speaker 2: the moment and they did. They felt very real. It
Speaker 2: was it was you know, part of the spark and
Speaker 2: amazingness of the show was that we just we loved
Speaker 2: these characters so much and we all rooted for them
Speaker 2: in our own ways, even though they were pretty despicable
Speaker 2: human being anyways, but we were we understood them and
Speaker 2: we love them. And so yes, I in my body,
Speaker 2: my when my body and my mind and my eyes
Speaker 2: see someone from the Sopranos, that's family. Like that is
Speaker 2: the same reaction I get when I see my blood family.
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Yeah, okay, I'm gonna do some quick rapid
Speaker 1: fig with you. What is MESSI or your purse, your
Speaker 1: group chat, your notes, app or your emotions?
Speaker 2: Oh my group chat? What is your current hyperfixation? The
Speaker 2: fact that my hair is falling out? Oh no, that's tough.
Speaker 2: It is And I don't know what is it from
Speaker 2: the testosterone? Is it perimenopause? Like I don't know what
Speaker 2: it is, but it's It's falling out a reality show.
Speaker 1: You could give a ted talk on any housewife or
Speaker 1: summer house this year. The most meadow thing about you
Speaker 1: my accent, your favorite metal line listen to mister mob Boss.
Speaker 2: The most New York thing about you? Pizza forever.
Speaker 1: Now that you're a Texan, what's the most Texan thing
Speaker 1: about you?
Speaker 2: I say, y'all. Who from the Sopranos would be the
Speaker 2: most fun at a dinner party? Rob Eiler my best friend?
Speaker 2: Or I eat a toturo though she's a close second.
Speaker 1: Which Sopranos character would have the most unhinged dating profile?
Speaker 2: I need a deturo? Janis for sure?
Speaker 1: Who would young Jamie be shocked that you became friends
Speaker 1: with Lance Bass? What's a dream that you're glad didn't
Speaker 1: come true?
Speaker 2: Singing like being a pop star meaning, oh we have
Speaker 2: to talk about we didn't get tired? I know, I know.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's as bad as you thought it was.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. It felt really bad for me. Your
Speaker 1: most underrated form of self care meditating? What is something
Speaker 1: that every woman should try once.
Speaker 2: A one night stan? Wow? I love that.
Speaker 1: I think that's what everybody thinks and doesn't say on
Speaker 1: the podcast, so thank you for saying it.
Speaker 2: Just just find a hot guy and just go without
Speaker 2: thinking and never want to see him again. Like I
Speaker 2: had one and he was amazing, and I look back
Speaker 2: at it fondly and I have no regrets and I
Speaker 2: don't care where he is.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: What is a book you read that changed your life?
Speaker 2: Something you think everybody should read? The Alchemist?
Speaker 1: And then if you will grab the question Everything card
Speaker 1: game and pick one question.
Speaker 2: Who has influenced you the most and what did you
Speaker 2: learn from them? Our friend Ryan Weiss really how beautiful and.
Speaker 1: I learned how to see myself in the world in
Speaker 1: a completely different way. Jamie Lynn Sigler Flash Siggy Slash.
Speaker 2: Jamie, thank you, thank you so much. You're amazing. You're amazing. Okay,
Speaker 2: you know what time it is. Today's a good day.
Speaker 2: To have a good day. I'll see you next week.
Speaker 1: Now The Seconds.
Speaker 2: As the
Speaker 3: Fam