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Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Rivals, the show about music, beeps and feuds

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Speaker 1: and long simmring resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and I'm Jordan,

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Speaker 1: and we've got something really special today. Yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: something we've never done before. We're actually doing a two

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Speaker 1: part episode because there's just way too much to cover

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Speaker 1: in one episode. And we're calling it Beatle Brawls because

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about battles that happened within the

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Speaker 1: greatest rock band of all time, the Fab Four, the Beatles.

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Speaker 1: You know him, you love them? Well, you don't like

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Speaker 1: the Beatles, right, Um, they are I would say responsible

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Speaker 1: for every creative impulse I've ever had. They mean, but

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Speaker 1: aside from that, aside from that, yeah, they're all right, Okay,

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Speaker 1: they've got something, got some good tunes. Well, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you're aware of this, Jordan, but the facade

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Speaker 1: of the happily mop top boys from Liverpool that we

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Speaker 1: all know and love it hid a lot of dissension

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Speaker 1: that happened behind the scenes. And uh, it's just not

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Speaker 1: all hard day's night here. There's it's actually, uh, what's

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Speaker 1: the opposite of a hard day's night, a terrible terrible

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Speaker 1: day and night, I don't know, a long, long night's day,

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Speaker 1: something like that. Yeah. Anyway, in this episode, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be talking about the rivalry between John Lennon and Paul McCartney,

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Speaker 1: two halves of the greatest partnership songwriting wise in music history.

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Speaker 1: And then in our next episode we're going to be

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Speaker 1: changing course where Lennon McCartney are gonna be forming a voltron,

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Speaker 1: if you will, and squaring off against the other great

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Speaker 1: songwriter in the Beatles, George Harrison. Uh So, I'm really

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Speaker 1: excited to get into this. You know, the Beatles story

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Speaker 1: to me. You know, I've I've I've watched all these documentaries,

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Speaker 1: I've read all these books. I've reread books, I've rewatched documentaries.

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Speaker 1: I know you're the same. I mean, look, I feel

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Speaker 1: like we're inundated with Beatles stuff all the time, and

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Speaker 1: yet I never get sick of hearing this story. I

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Speaker 1: I could hear details about their interactions forever. It's like

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Speaker 1: a Greek myth or something. It's just larger than life.

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Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, I mean I I have like Beatle anthology

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Speaker 1: pilgrimages every like probably once or twice a year. I

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Speaker 1: watched all eight Hours or whatever it is about, and

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Speaker 1: you're right, I just I never get tired of it.

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Speaker 1: And there's there is something almost mythological about it. They're

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Speaker 1: the way they ever to capture so many, you know,

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Speaker 1: including myself, just multiple generations. It's it's just unbelievable. And

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Speaker 1: I they made me love music, and that love made

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Speaker 1: me want to be a writer. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: I love a lot of bands, but I honestly don't

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Speaker 1: know how my life would be without the Beatles. And

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Speaker 1: I know it kind of sound like a crazy fan,

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Speaker 1: but you know, I genuinely worry. Someday I'm gonna have

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Speaker 1: to look into my children's eyes and lie when I

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Speaker 1: tell them that the happiest day of my life was

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Speaker 1: their birth, But actually it was the day I got

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Speaker 1: to interview Paul McCartney. I don't think that will ever change.

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Speaker 1: You have to rub it in that you've interviewed multiple Beatles,

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Speaker 1: and I've never interviewed any Beatles. Really, I've never interviewed

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Speaker 1: a Beatle. Paul Ringo, give me a call. I have

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Speaker 1: questions to ask you, but you know you will be

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Speaker 1: using that expertise. I'm sure in this episode, and you

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Speaker 1: can give me a little bit of digs here and there.

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Speaker 1: Because of my inadequacy and talking to members of the Beatles,

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Speaker 1: I'll send them an email. I'll call you. Don't worry.

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Speaker 1: I might take him a minute. But look at back

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Speaker 1: to you, all right, without further ado, let's get into

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Speaker 1: this mess, oh man, John and Paul. You know, their relationship,

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Speaker 1: like so many marriages, built on a sense of respect

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Speaker 1: and ambition, but it's must moments more than that because

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Speaker 1: their union, the thing that really made it special is

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Speaker 1: that they shared a really, really tragic loss as young boys.

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Speaker 1: They both lost their mother in their in their teenage years.

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Speaker 1: And this is Britain in the fifties. Men and boys.

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Speaker 1: They don't really talk about their feelings, and I mean

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Speaker 1: they barely do now, but really not then. And so

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Speaker 1: they had this thing in common that they didn't even

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Speaker 1: necessarily have to talk about, but they both knew it

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Speaker 1: was something that was that was unspoken between them, and

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Speaker 1: that bonded them in a way that is no much

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Speaker 1: more than a lot of songwriting partnerships of that era.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think that that but bonded them at

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Speaker 1: a deeper level. That is something that helped them really

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Speaker 1: weather all the storms that were to come through Beatlemania

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Speaker 1: and beyond. I think yeah, I think so. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, the important thing to remember with these two

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Speaker 1: guys is that I think they did start off with

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Speaker 1: a genuine sense of connection that they had, as you said,

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Speaker 1: because of this shared tragedy where they both lost their mothers,

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Speaker 1: and also because of their artistic ambitions that they had

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Speaker 1: already as young people. I remember seeing a Paul McCartney

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Speaker 1: interview where he said that, you know, when people would

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Speaker 1: ask him what he was interested in as a boy,

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Speaker 1: he would mention songwriting, and most people their eyes would

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Speaker 1: just glaze over and they'd want to talk about sports.

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Speaker 1: And John Lennon was the first person that he met

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Speaker 1: that was also interested in songwriting. So along with having this,

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Speaker 1: you know, that this tragic loss that they could bond

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Speaker 1: over um, they also had this creative ambition. It is interesting,

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Speaker 1: you know, because as we talked about more of these rivalries,

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Speaker 1: you know, you start to see echoes of other band

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Speaker 1: stories and the story that maybe you're thinking about right now,

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Speaker 1: and of course the Beatles it's like the ultimate story.

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Speaker 1: But when I think about Lennon McCartney in a way

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Speaker 1: it kind of reminds me of like the Jeff Tweety

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Speaker 1: Jeff Jay Farrar dynamic that we talked about in our

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Speaker 1: Uncle Tupelo episode, just because you know, Lennon was a

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Speaker 1: few years older than McCartney. He was already acknowledge as

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Speaker 1: being this great wit, very smart guy, had a lot

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Speaker 1: of confidence. And McCartney has said that he idolized John Lennon,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think he described him and says he

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Speaker 1: was like the Elvis of our band. And he was

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Speaker 1: the one that McCartney wanted approval from and praise, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, And in a way it was like that

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Speaker 1: classic circumstance, similar to the Uncle Tubula story, where you

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Speaker 1: want this acceptance from somebody who's maybe slow to give

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Speaker 1: it to you. Like John Lennon was not generous with

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Speaker 1: praise necessarily, no, absolutely, I mean. And he he didn't

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Speaker 1: respect a lot of people either. He kind of liked

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Speaker 1: to be a gang leader. And uh, there's the famous

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Speaker 1: story when John met Paul was that Paul went to

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Speaker 1: see John's early band, McCary Men play at a at

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Speaker 1: a church fair and uh, and Paul went backstage and

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Speaker 1: met him and grabbed his guitar and said, you know,

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Speaker 1: I actually play the little rock and roll myself and

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Speaker 1: famously played Eddie Cochran's twenty Flight Rock upside Down. Paul's

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Speaker 1: left handed, he played a right handed guitar, and he

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Speaker 1: knew all the words which blew John's mind. John didn't

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Speaker 1: respect many people, but he learned to respect Paul in

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Speaker 1: that moment, just because of his sheer musical ability. And

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Speaker 1: I think that, like you said, yeah, I mean, not

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Speaker 1: only do they both have similar creative and sas of

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Speaker 1: being songwriters, but I think Paul showed that he had

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Speaker 1: the goods early on and that that earned him a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of points from John. And it's interesting and

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Speaker 1: well we'll see this as we get into the episode here,

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Speaker 1: that that dynamic between these two where Paul is trying

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Speaker 1: to get approval from John, John is the is the

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Speaker 1: dominant one. And I think that carries over into the

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Speaker 1: early days of the Beatles. Like if you listen to

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Speaker 1: the first several Beatles records, John is more prominent than

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Speaker 1: Paul in terms of singing lead on their biggest hits

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Speaker 1: at that time. Um, you start to see a shift

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Speaker 1: go on where as Paul assumes control of the band,

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Speaker 1: and he has more power in the band that sparks

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Speaker 1: this unforeseen insecurity in John that causes him to lash

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Speaker 1: out Uh in very spectacular ways, as we'll see, you know,

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Speaker 1: as we get into this. Yeah, the mid sixties. It's funny.

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Speaker 1: There's this idea of Lennon McCartney all the way through,

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Speaker 1: of them sitting in rooms and hotel rooms and stuff

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Speaker 1: and bathrooms with their two guitars looking to each other's eyes,

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Speaker 1: writing together, and that really sort of stops. I'd say

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Speaker 1: by sixty two sixty three that they really are writing separately,

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Speaker 1: and by the mid sixties around Rubber Soul Revolver era,

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Speaker 1: they're living very separate lives. Paul is kind of a

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Speaker 1: man about town. He lives in London. He's sort of

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Speaker 1: experimenting with the underground scene. He's got friends. His girlfriend,

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Speaker 1: Jane Asher Uh is an actress and she can kind

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Speaker 1: of introduce him to all these cultural figures. And her

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Speaker 1: brother Peter Asher, who literally lives next door to him,

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Speaker 1: is involved with the Indica Arts Gallery and all these

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Speaker 1: kind of sort of experimental publications like the International Times,

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Speaker 1: and Paul is really really fascinated by all of this.

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Speaker 1: He's like a sponge soaking up all this new culture,

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Speaker 1: and he goes to lectures from about Stockhausen and Luciano

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Speaker 1: Barrio and John Cage all this experimental music. So he's

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Speaker 1: really absorbing all this stuff and engaged in culture. John

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Speaker 1: is living out in the suburbs. They call it the

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Speaker 1: stockbroker Belt because that's where just all the stockbrokers got

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Speaker 1: their kind of McMahon genie type houses, really boring place

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Speaker 1: in this unfulfilling marriage with his wife who really doesn't

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Speaker 1: stimulate him in any kind of way. And he cites

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Speaker 1: the song Help later on as being like a genuine

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Speaker 1: cry for help. He's just he's eating too much. He's

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Speaker 1: indulging too much across the board. He's so bored out

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Speaker 1: there that he's just filling himself with food and a

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Speaker 1: ton of drugs. He used to have a mortar and

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Speaker 1: pestle by his by his bedside that he used to

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Speaker 1: just crush up pills at random and then make an

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Speaker 1: uber pill, just like see what would happen. He was

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Speaker 1: really in rough shape, especially after the Beatles stopped touring

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Speaker 1: in sixty six. I mean, he was, like he said

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Speaker 1: he was. He was eating l Steve for breakfast at

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Speaker 1: that point, right, yeah, and just like smoking weed all

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Speaker 1: the time and watching television, like if you've seen the

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Speaker 1: movie Pineapple Express, like that was John Lennon's life in

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Speaker 1: the mid sixties, you know, as you said, Like first

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Speaker 1: it was weed and then he started taking acid all

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Speaker 1: the time, and then as we get into the late sixties,

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Speaker 1: he starts taking heroin and then it gets really serious

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Speaker 1: and he's that's when you start to see the more

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Speaker 1: sort of gaunt, Jesus looking John Lennon of the late sixties.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting to me how these two guys were

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Speaker 1: starting to diverge in the mid sixties, because it really

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Speaker 1: does I think upend a lot of the cliches about

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Speaker 1: these guys. And I think it's maybe different now. I

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Speaker 1: think Paul McCartney gets more respect now than he did

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Speaker 1: a couple of decades ago, but love Songs guy anymore. Like,

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Speaker 1: but I remember when I first started learning about classic

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Speaker 1: rock history as a kid, like in the late eighties

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Speaker 1: early nineties, like Paul McCartney was still looked at as

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Speaker 1: this lightweight guy in comparison to John Lennon. That John

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Speaker 1: Lennon was the icon. Of course, he had died tragically,

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Speaker 1: he was looked at as the more artistic one, the

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Speaker 1: more the saying yeah he was, the saying he was

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Speaker 1: also artistically adventurous, or that's how we that's how he

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Speaker 1: was regarded, when the reality is is that for a

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Speaker 1: big part of the sixties, John Lennon was on the

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Speaker 1: sidelines in terms of observing a lot of the changes

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Speaker 1: that were going on, and Paul McCartney was more in

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Speaker 1: the mix. Um, as you said, going to art galleries,

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Speaker 1: you know, being actively involved and you know, hanging out

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Speaker 1: with like people like William Burrows and you know, all

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Speaker 1: the adventurous filmmakers of that time. Um. And you can

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Speaker 1: see how that ultimately informs the later Beatles period, because

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Speaker 1: if the early Beatles are a band that seems to

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Speaker 1: be led pretty clearly by John by the time of

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Speaker 1: Sergeant Pepper, so you're seeing a decisive shift to where

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Speaker 1: Paul is the person, uh who's really the boss of

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Speaker 1: the band? And John used to always complain, he'd say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I got a phone call from Paul. He said, okay, boys,

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Speaker 1: I think we should do a new album. And he'd

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Speaker 1: written because he'd have written all the songs he'd written,

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Speaker 1: he'd had enough that he thought I could do a

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Speaker 1: new album, and he's John saying, oh geez, give me

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Speaker 1: a minute, I got to actually write some stuff. Paul

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Speaker 1: was like basically like the busybody of this band, you know,

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Speaker 1: like he was the kid in class who's always raising

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Speaker 1: his hand, you know, trying to answer you know, every

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Speaker 1: every answer from the teacher and always gets straight a's.

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Speaker 1: And with John and also it with George, there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of resentment towards him for that. Although you

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Speaker 1: could also say that if you love those later Beatles albums,

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Speaker 1: they probably wouldn't exist if it weren't for Paul's attitude.

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Speaker 1: So it was this weird thing of like Paul motivating

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Speaker 1: the band to continue to put out records, but at

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Speaker 1: the same time that motivation, that sort of hectoring motivation

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Speaker 1: that he had, was also eating them away from the inside.

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Speaker 1: And if you listen to Sergeant Pepper, all of John's

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Speaker 1: contributions are sort of like these meditations on the mundane

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Speaker 1: You've got Loosely in the Sky with Diamonds, which is

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Speaker 1: about his son's painting that he brought home from school

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Speaker 1: being for the benefit of Mr. Kite, is from a

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Speaker 1: poster that's in his living room, good morning, Good mornings

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Speaker 1: about watching TV, and the Day of Life is just

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Speaker 1: born from a newspaper that he had propped up on

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Speaker 1: his piano that day. So, I mean, it's funny when

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Speaker 1: you actually think he's just sort of in his house

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Speaker 1: taking Oh jeez, I gotta write some stuff now because

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Speaker 1: Paul's ready to go and I'm not. It's like he

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Speaker 1: could have written a song about like, oh, the couch,

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Speaker 1: the psychedelic couch, or you know, the walls around my room,

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Speaker 1: are you know speaking to me? Yeah, that is that

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Speaker 1: is funny. Although you know, like in the case of

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Speaker 1: Day in the Life, that is an example of really

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Speaker 1: John and Paul working together on a song in a

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Speaker 1: way that they, as you said, they hadn't really done

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Speaker 1: all that much since like the early sixties, and really

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Speaker 1: I think Day in the Life is like the last

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Speaker 1: example of them working together on a song because of course,

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Speaker 1: you know, John had the beginning part, you know, I

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Speaker 1: read the news today, old boy. That that whole section,

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Speaker 1: and then there's that great section in the middle where

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Speaker 1: Paul is, you know, woke up, got a bed drained

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Speaker 1: to comb across my head, that whole thing, and there's

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Speaker 1: other examples too from Sergeant Pepper where they weren't necessarily

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Speaker 1: writing together, but it was this instance of them essentially

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Speaker 1: polishing off each other's songs, which I think was something

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Speaker 1: that continued to happen up at least through this album.

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Speaker 1: Like there's the song getting Better where you know, the choruses,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's getting better all the time, and then

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Speaker 1: John kicked in, you know, it couldn't get no worse,

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Speaker 1: you know, perfect John Lennon contrast to what Paul McCartney

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Speaker 1: is doing. And of course, like by the time they

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Speaker 1: get to the White album, you know, like McCartney has

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Speaker 1: talked about how he didn't hear John lennon songs until

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Speaker 1: they were in the studio, and there was no polishing

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Speaker 1: of anyone's songs by that point. I mean, there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of hostility going on between these guys, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot of it has to

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Speaker 1: do with the death of Brian Epstein, their manager, don't

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Speaker 1: you think, I mean, because it seems like that is

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the end in terms of oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean not not only did Paul become the goody

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Speaker 1: goodye of the group who had the songs and was

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Speaker 1: ready to go and get into the studio. But now

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Speaker 1: he was really trying to and I don't think it

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Speaker 1: was in a malicious way, but to try to lead

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Speaker 1: the group through because there was just this huge power vacuum.

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Speaker 1: And that's sort of the first thing that you see

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Speaker 1: after Brian died in August sixty seven is the Magical

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Speaker 1: Mystery Tour experience, which is uh uh. There's a complicated

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Speaker 1: reputation when you say it's very rare in the Beatle

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Speaker 1: my mythology that there's like anything that's not universally praised,

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Speaker 1: but this is one of them. I mean, have you

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Speaker 1: seen the whole movie, because like I've seen, like I've

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Speaker 1: seen parts of it. There's like the great I Am

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Speaker 1: the Wall Riz sequence that's pretty well known, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's like the hello goodbye sequence where they're wearing

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Speaker 1: the white tuxedos. Oh your mother should know? Your mother

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Speaker 1: should know? Yeah, your mother should know. Um. Like there's

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Speaker 1: little bits of it that have been broken up into

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Speaker 1: music videos essentially, but basically, I mean that movie is incoherent, right,

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Speaker 1: I Mean, the the idea was that they were gonna

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Speaker 1: it's sort of like Seinfeld thirty years early. They were

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Speaker 1: gonna make a movie about nothing. It was almost like

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Speaker 1: a Mary Pranksters type thing. They would rent a bus

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Speaker 1: and go out into the country and hope that something

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Speaker 1: would happen, but unfortunately, nothing really interesting happened. And then

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Speaker 1: they were left with eleven hours of footage of basically nothing.

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Speaker 1: And they were amateur filmmakers who thought they could cut

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Speaker 1: it together in a week, but they had all this

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Speaker 1: footage of nothing. It took them like four months. Was

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Speaker 1: way over budget. They were missing like because they weren't filmmakers.

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Speaker 1: They didn't know how to make like linking shots and

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. It was. It was a very costly

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Speaker 1: asked her, both financially and just time and effort wise.

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Speaker 1: But you've got a lot of great songs out of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And you can look at that movie and you know,

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Speaker 1: like you said, it was like kind of the first

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Speaker 1: thing that the Beatles attempted that didn't really work, which

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Speaker 1: is an incredible thing to say given how much they

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Speaker 1: had done up to that point. I mean, that's a

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Speaker 1: pretty great streak of like commercial successes and like artistic triumphs,

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Speaker 1: you know, leading up to Magical Mystery Tour. But it

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Speaker 1: is an interesting row shock test, because if you are

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Speaker 1: inclined to you know, be sympathetic to Paul, I think

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Speaker 1: it's very easy to look at him and say, like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: even if this project didn't work, he tried, yeah, John said,

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Speaker 1: gobbling drugs left and right. George is like, you know,

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Speaker 1: hanging out like with Indian musicians and like meditating seven.

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Speaker 1: You know, Ringo is doing whatever he's doing. I mean

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Speaker 1: it was up to Paul to get on the phone

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Speaker 1: and to get everyone into the studio and and to

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Speaker 1: get him to make these records. You know. The question

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Speaker 1: is is like should Paul have read the writing on

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Speaker 1: the wall maybe and said, you know, Brian Epstein died,

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Speaker 1: we're not touring anymore. Should we even be a band?

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Speaker 1: You know, like these other guys don't seem into it.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm sort of dragging them across the finish

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Speaker 1: line with whatever we're doing. It just didn't seem like

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Speaker 1: he was prepared to even entertain that possibility at this point.

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Speaker 1: I think it was just a case of maybe dialing

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Speaker 1: it back a bit and instead of trying an entirely

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Speaker 1: new medium that you know nothing about. Uh, because he

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Speaker 1: just succeeded one too many times. I mean Sergeant Pepper

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Speaker 1: was sort of his baby too. I mean, the whole

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Speaker 1: concept of being this fictitious band and making an album

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Speaker 1: be a production and sending the album out on tour

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Speaker 1: instead of going out on toy yourself. All these high

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Speaker 1: concept ideas were generally his, and they'd all been successful,

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Speaker 1: so he probably thought, well, you know what, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: I can make this work too. But in that time

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Speaker 1: of crisis with the group, they probably should have just

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Speaker 1: one an ordinary new album and just something a little

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Speaker 1: easier to kind of get them through that whole crisis period.

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Speaker 1: But but no, it was sort of the wrong project

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Speaker 1: to tackle at the wrong time, I think, and I

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Speaker 1: think too that you're really starting to see the aesthetic

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Speaker 1: differences between Lennon and McCartney come to the forefront. I mean,

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Speaker 1: where in the past, I think you could say, like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: John is more of a sarcastic guy, he's more of

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Speaker 1: like a rock and roll guy, whereas Paul is more

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Speaker 1: like a pop guy, more you know, open to like romanticism,

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Speaker 1: and in Whimsy you can look at those two elements

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Speaker 1: and they complimented each other perfectly. And then we're getting

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Speaker 1: into the White Album and it seems like they were

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Speaker 1: just clashing, like where they didn't want to really even

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Speaker 1: be in the same space. Oh yeah, I mean there

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Speaker 1: were times when they had like three studios all going

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Speaker 1: at once, with John doing something in one and Paul

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Speaker 1: and another in George and the other and and John

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Speaker 1: is at this point sort of openly sniping at at

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Speaker 1: Paul's music. He memorably called blood Deal Blood and Martha

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Speaker 1: my dear Paul's granny music ship, which is which I

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Speaker 1: love those songs. Yeah, I look, I have to say,

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Speaker 1: you know, at the risk of, you know, generating the

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Speaker 1: ire of our audience, I have to defend oblabled up

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Speaker 1: a little bit because I feel like it's become accepted

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Speaker 1: to just like crap on that song. And I'll admit

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Speaker 1: it's not my favorite Beatles song. It definitely, uh you know,

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Speaker 1: it's like the Beatles playing ska and and singing a

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Speaker 1: nonsensical chorus. You know, on paper, it doesn't really work.

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Speaker 1: I can see why people would hate it, but I

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Speaker 1: still think it's a pretty good tune, and I like

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Speaker 1: it on the White album, and I appreciate it in

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Speaker 1: the context of that record with how many different songs

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Speaker 1: there are. And also, I mean Martha my Dear Killer song.

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Speaker 1: I mean that is a that's a great song. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if that's Granny Ship, then you know call me. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that song bangs well. I think Paul like had him

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Speaker 1: going for something like two or three days straight just

389
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Speaker 1: like trying to get that song. So they were just

390
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Speaker 1: I think it was just shoved down their throat to

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Speaker 1: like if he was kind of indifferent towards it on

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Speaker 1: day one, by day three of you know, thirty six

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Speaker 1: hours of of you know, Desmond in the market play,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that he was just like, all right, no,

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Speaker 1: no more, please please please please? Yeah, okay, yeah, if

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Speaker 1: I had to play it's like going ton amost comply

397
00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:13,639
Speaker 1: for three or six hours? Yeah exactly. Okay. Granted, if

398
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,600
Speaker 1: that's the case, then I understand. But otherwise, if you're

399
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,360
Speaker 1: just putting it on the record and you're gonna listen

400
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,560
Speaker 1: to it once on a Sunday afternoon, perfectly pleasant song,

401
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,879
Speaker 1: all right hand, We'll be right back with more rivals

402
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,879
Speaker 1: sort of. The real uh clash between the two aesthetics

403
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 1: is on the was gonna be the first Apple A

404
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Speaker 1: side there. They started new label Apple Records in the

405
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Speaker 1: summer sixty eight and they were gonna release their their

406
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Speaker 1: the first Beatles single on their new label. It was

407
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:49,920
Speaker 1: gonna be a big you know, kind of coming out

408
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Speaker 1: of their their latest business project. And John had written

409
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Speaker 1: Revolutions the Summer sixty eight RFK Assassination Martin Luther King

410
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,480
Speaker 1: Assassination that one of the most ultra summers in American history,

411
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,639
Speaker 1: seemed like a really timely song. It's loud, Ha's got

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Speaker 1: that incredible store to guitar intro. It's just you know,

413
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Speaker 1: a call to action, sort of like vague, mindless action,

414
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 1: but still action. It's kind of an indecisive song though,

415
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Speaker 1: because he can't decide if he's if he's hanging for

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00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 1: destruction or out. That's true, you know which I think,

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Speaker 1: And I love that song, but like as if you're

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Speaker 1: looking at it as a polemic or as I call

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Speaker 1: the revolution or whatever it is, and actually kind of

420
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 1: like the ambivalence of it. I think that adds to it.

421
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Speaker 1: But like, yeah, if you're looking for a clear cut answer,

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00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 1: you're not gonna get it from that song. No, So

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Speaker 1: so that's where John's coming from. Evan Paul has Hey, Jude,

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Speaker 1: which is this just a custom design for for radio superiority,

425
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:50,399
Speaker 1: this incredibly gentle, melodic piano ballad with this lush orchestral fade.

426
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 1: That's and even with this like seemingly straight ahead, like

427
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,879
Speaker 1: middle of the Road song, he pushes it into like

428
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,440
Speaker 1: groundbreaking territory by making it seven minutes and what six

429
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 1: seconds long, the longest song the Beatles have ever done

430
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 1: at that point, and I think it was like the

431
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: longest single by anybody. It was even longer than like

432
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,560
Speaker 1: like a Rolling Stone, which was like, you know, historic

433
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixty five, and like this, like we're

434
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 1: going to add a minute more of Nona Nonas to

435
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 1: the end of this song to make it even longer

436
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 1: than that because we can. Because with the Beatles, damn

437
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,160
Speaker 1: it exactly and it works. That's that end. He could

438
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,119
Speaker 1: go on forever and I would still love it. Oh

439
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 1: my god, I know. So. So Paul ends up getting

440
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 1: the A side, which pisces John off to no end,

441
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: probably because the song is written about John's son, Julian.

442
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 1: John and his wife Cynthia split up, and Paul goes

443
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 1: out to visit John's uh soon to be ex wife

444
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 1: Cynthia and UH and Julian and to try to comfort

445
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,119
Speaker 1: him on the way out there, he's kind of like

446
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,880
Speaker 1: thinking of words of comfort and uh, and he comes

447
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: up with hey Jules, which he changes to hey Jude um.

448
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 1: And I'm sure on some level John must have known

449
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 1: that and that must have been weird, Like, I'm you're

450
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 1: per slow, life isn't a shambles and I'm gonna write

451
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: this song about it, and it's gonna be our new

452
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 1: single on Elbow yours. And also, by the way, it's

453
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 1: gonna be the longest charting number one single Beatles ever

454
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 1: had in the United States. So I don't know. In

455
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 1: some ways that must have been weird for him. It's

456
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 1: interesting though, because I read an interview once where John

457
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 1: Lennon was talking about Hey Jude, and he actually thought

458
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 1: that he put for this theory that actually totally changed

459
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,200
Speaker 1: how I think about the song where he said that

460
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 1: he's like, I think it's about me. I think Paul

461
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: was saying, Hey John, and he's saying, go get that girl.

462
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 1: You know that you can leave the band and you

463
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 1: can be with this girl. And of course the girl

464
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 1: that he's talking about is Yoko. Oh No, that's John

465
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 1: Lennon's theory. Paul McCartney has never said that. I don't

466
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 1: know if that's actually true or if there was maybe

467
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 1: some sort of subconscious thing, but that is an interesting

468
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: way to read that song if you hear it. And

469
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: of course there's a beautiful part at the end where

470
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 1: Paul and John are singing together, and that that that's

471
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 1: really beautiful. I also think too, you know, we were

472
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 1: talking about John and Paul polishing off each other's songs,

473
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: and there's a there's a great moment in Hey Jude

474
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 1: where McCartney sings the movement you need is on your shoulder,

475
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: And when he first played that for for John Lennon,

476
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: Lennon was like, McCartney said, you know, I okay, I

477
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 1: know this line is bad. I'm going to replace this,

478
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 1: and Lennon's like, you're not. I really love that lyric.

479
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: You've got to leave that in the song. And McCartney

480
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: has said that ever, every time he plays it now

481
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: he thinks of John Lennon when he when he sings

482
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: that part. So, you know, it's fascinating to me that

483
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 1: even at this moment in time where their relationship was

484
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 1: at an all time low, they could still have these

485
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: like little moments of warmth, you know, between each other

486
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 1: where they could help each other out, and then you know,

487
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: five minutes later they'd be at each other's throats again. Yeah,

488
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: there's this moment that Paul sometimes talks about in interviews

489
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 1: where he talks about a moment around this time when

490
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: he and John are having a really bad fight and

491
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: then they both got quiet for a minute and the

492
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: dust settled, and John sort of pushed down his granny

493
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 1: glass at the end of his nose and goes, it's

494
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 1: only meet Paul, and then pushed them back up. And

495
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:05,959
Speaker 1: I mean, I get chills even thinking about that now,

496
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 1: he says, a little little chink in his armor that

497
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 1: he kind of let him know, like it's only me.

498
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 1: You know, we we've we we've gone so far back

499
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 1: where I'm your friend, remember, And I still I always

500
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 1: think of that whenever I we, you know, whenever we

501
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,959
Speaker 1: discussed the stuff we're about to get to, the real

502
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 1: nasty business stuff. I always feel like that there's a

503
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: there's a romantic aspect to their relationship where not not

504
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: not physically, not literally, but like they're such great friends.

505
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 1: But there's also a little bit of like a marriage aspect,

506
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: where there there's a possessiveness that happens. And I think

507
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 1: that's especially true for Paul, and that's because we're going

508
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 1: to get into the Yoko part of this story right now,

509
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 1: and this is the way that he acts about Yoko.

510
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: It just reminds me of like how people act when

511
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: like the big X of their life moves on and

512
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: marry somebody else. You know, It's like that thing like

513
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: I I hate that person. I hate that person for

514
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: taking this person that I level away from me. And

515
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 1: it seems like there's a that's like a real aspect

516
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: of this story moving forward. Oh totally. I mean, obviously,

517
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: the thing that everybody knows about Yoko, John would bring

518
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: her into every session for the White album and with

519
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 1: really sort of no explanation to the others that she

520
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: just was sort of there and it just it was

521
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: encroached on their psychic space, the creative space. It was

522
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 1: obviously really difficult to him. But the thing that not

523
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: a lot of people know is that when John left

524
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 1: his wife to get together with Yoko, they didn't have

525
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: a place to live, so they actually were Paul McCartney's

526
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: house guests for a time, which is you know, that's

527
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: a play right there. I would love to see that

528
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,959
Speaker 1: um so so, John and Yoko were standing together, and obviously,

529
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: as you can probably imagine, uh, it was it was

530
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: a tense Uh, it was a tense time them all

531
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: living under one roof, and both sides have been blamed

532
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 1: over the years. Some say that Yoko was just sort

533
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: of cold and unappreciative, and she and John would just

534
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 1: sort of camp in front of the TV and stare

535
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 1: into each other's eyes. But there's a story that Paul's

536
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: sort of brief girlfriend at this period, and a woman

537
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 1: named Franci schwartz Um said that I guess Paul sent

538
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 1: a really strongly worded racist note to John and Yoko

539
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 1: that he said. He has claimed it was sent as

540
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: a joke, but I mean, we can't even say what

541
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: it says. I mean, if you read a Beatles book,

542
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: you could, but you know, I guess we could say

543
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: you in your blankety blank, I think you're hot. Shit

544
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: is what the note said. Yeah, like yeah, terrible. Um

545
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: and which and Bob spits book which is a great Beatles,

546
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 1: incredible basist called the Beatles, and like, if you're gonna

547
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 1: read a Beatles book, you want to read that one.

548
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: He describes this scene and he says basically that John Lennon,

549
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: you know, looks at Paul and horror. It was just like,

550
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 1: we're done. Who are you really? Like you did this

551
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: to my? To my it was his girlfriend at the time,

552
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 1: I mean, this woman I love. How could you do that?

553
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: Like just like we're not going to get over this,

554
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: you know, like maybe down the road, but right now,

555
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 1: like we're through. It's funny too, because like the Francine

556
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 1: Schwartz who you mentioned, I believe that was also the

557
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: woman that, like Paul McCartney hooked up with after John

558
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 1: and Yoko started dating, and Yoko was in the studio

559
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: all the time, and then Paul started bringing sports into

560
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: the studio all the time. So because's like, well, if

561
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: you're going to bring a woman, I'll show you. Yeah,

562
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: I'll bring a woman into which again it just seems

563
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: like another um example of you making your ex jealous,

564
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: making your ex jealous. And I think too, but like

565
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: how you know John and Yoko got married. I think

566
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: it was March of nineteen sixty nine. They got married,

567
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: and then Paul and Linda Eastman, who of course became

568
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: Linda McCartney, they got married two days later, and it

569
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 1: was like a very like quick wedding, and you know,

570
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: they've been together for a while. It seemed like they

571
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: were heading toward, you know, getting married at some point.

572
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: But it just blows my mind, you know that, well,

573
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: John and Yoko got married, we have to get married

574
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: now to immediately. Yeah, it was like a registry office

575
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: wedding too. It wasn't like a big thing that took

576
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: much planning at all. So yeah, that's it's definitely fascinating.

577
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: I mean, whether or not Paul actually did this thing

578
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: with the with the postcard, his rejection of Yoko hurt

579
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: John in a way that I don't think Paul would

580
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: ever hurt him, you know. I mean, going back to

581
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: the early Beatle days, Paul took a lot of crap

582
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: from John. John would be getting drunk, starting fights, slagging

583
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: people off, and Paul would always kind of be there

584
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: and and to smooth things over and say, you know,

585
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: he's all right, really it's okay, it's okay. John regularly

586
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: dished this stuff out, but he'd never really swung it

587
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: at John that way. And so for the first time,

588
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: Paul hurt John, and I don't think they ever really

589
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: got over it, and he kind of John retreated into

590
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: his relationship with Yoko and also around this time heroin. Yeah,

591
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: and I think the heroin aspect of this story is

592
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: weirdly under underdisgust. And I think if you read a

593
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: lot of Beatles books, you know that Lennon was into

594
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: this at that time. And like even if you listen

595
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: to the White album, I mean there's like drug references

596
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: like throughout that that record. You know, Happiness is a

597
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: Warm Gun. I mean, that's such a heroin song. You know,

598
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: you could have just like called it heroin if like

599
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: Lou Reed hadn't already written a song called heroin, like

600
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: Lenning could have called Happiness is a Warm Gun heroin.

601
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: But you know, along with all of the other drug

602
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: abuse that that Lennon was going through at that time,

603
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it feels like the heroin aspect really deep

604
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: six the band because you know, you really you can't

605
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: communicate with the junkie, you know, I mean, and he

606
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: was really checked out um of the band at that point. Yeah.

607
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: I mean you look at footage from the Letting the

608
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: Letter B sessions and he's just glazed eyes staring, you know,

609
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: staring at Yoko, barely playing, and he can barely muster

610
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: up the energy to to do a song. So yeah,

611
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: that was a really fear early late early six nine,

612
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: and that was around when he gotten busted for pot too,

613
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: and it was a really bad time for him, a

614
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: miscarriage with Yoko. Yeah, and you can just see that

615
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: like that just made Paul try even harder, you know, like,

616
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: well John is checked out, so that's gonna make you know,

617
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: me be even more of a cheerleader in this band,

618
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: which it just creates this vicious cycle essentially in the

619
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: Beatles as they're spinning out of control, because as you said,

620
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: it probably would have been better for Paul to maybe

621
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: lay off a little bit, but he felt like he

622
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: had to do that to keep the band going. It's

623
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: also interesting to me too, like because we're talking about

624
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: these like romantic entanglements that we're going on in the band,

625
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: like how that ended up influencing the business aspect of

626
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: the Beatles because John Lennon ended up becoming enamored with

627
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: this guy named Alan Klein who was a big time

628
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: rock manager and man, we could spend a whole episode

629
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,479
Speaker 1: just on Allen Kleine. I mean that story, just all

630
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: the things that were going on with him, but like

631
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: Paul one to bring in Lee Eastman, who's Linda's dad,

632
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: he wanted him to manage the Beatles, and John's like, no, wait,

633
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: your father in law can't be a neutral third party

634
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: to this at all, Like he's gonna favor you in

635
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: these deals. There's absolutely no way, which I mean John's credit,

636
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: it's probably true, yeah, exactly, But also the animus that

637
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: was being directed at Leastman, because Leesman wasn't just some

638
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: guy up the street. I mean, he was very well

639
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: known businessman. I'm sure he would have done a great

640
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: job managing the Beatles. But again, going back to Bob

641
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: Spitz's book, there's this there's this incredible anecdote about a

642
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: meeting that took place with Eastman, Alan Klein and John

643
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: and Yoko, and I don't think Paul was there, Like,

644
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: do do you remember this story? I mean, did you

645
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: remember that? Yeah, Paul, I think Paul knew better than

646
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: to go. I mean, by the end of this meeting,

647
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: they were like holding each other back physically, like they

648
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: were just screaming at each other, calling each other rats

649
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: and and it's just all sorts of I mean, it's

650
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: just totally devolved into like a playground scene. I mean

651
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: it's really and the don't they know about Alan Klein.

652
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: I mean he is run of the true, like rock

653
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: and roll swindlers. I guess Brian Epstein had met him, uh,

654
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: and he refused to shake his hands because he's just like, yeah,

655
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: I know about you, like I'm not. I don't want

656
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: to get anywhere near you. So but John thought his

657
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: kind of brash, streetwise swagger. He's a New York guy.

658
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: He was refreshing, and he wasn't just like some British

659
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: business guy. He was like real, you know, gritty, which

660
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: was John was all about at that time. And Lee

661
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: Eastman was I think as Harvard educated, um, you know,

662
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: very waspy sort of figure. And so they just hated

663
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: each other and just open animosity throughout this whole horrendous meeting. Yeah.

664
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: I always think of like Allen Klein being like John

665
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: Belushi in an animal house, and then like le Span

666
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: was Leesman was like the snobby fraternity. I forget what

667
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: they were. Were they like the Omega's or something? Oh yeah,

668
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: like Kevin Bacon, Yeah, yeah, like the bad fraternity, you know,

669
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: like because yeah, Allen Klein, you know, he was like

670
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: this overweight, unkempt. You know, he dropped a lot of

671
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: four little words. He had a reputation for being a

672
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: bit of a sleeves ball, although he did in the

673
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: short run get a lot of money for his clients. Um,

674
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: but yeah, it didn't have a great reputation. But like,

675
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: like you said, like Lennon liked his rough edges and

676
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: and and also was very mistrustful of being managed by

677
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,399
Speaker 1: by Paul's father in law. So I mean that really

678
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: sets the table for these guys finally deciding to split,

679
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: although even that ends up being kind of fraught and

680
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: not they end up arguing over who's going to bring

681
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: up the Beatles, so so messy. I mean, So it's

682
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: the day Abbey Road comes out in September sixty nine.

683
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 1: They're having a business meeting. John had just come from

684
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: playing the Toronto Rock and Roll Revival Festival, which was

685
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,959
Speaker 1: like his first big public performance he's ever done without

686
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 1: the Beatles, first performance he's done in since the Beatles

687
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: last tour, and their meeting and Paul's being Paul and

688
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,760
Speaker 1: he's saying, you know, I really think that we should

689
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: go back to what we do best and be a

690
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: band and start playing these little tour like little pubs

691
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: and clubs and stuff, and get back to our roots

692
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 1: and and actually stage a little small tour. And John

693
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: just looks at him and what I think you're I

694
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: think your daft, I think is what he said. I

695
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 1: wasn't going to tell you, but I'm breaking the group up.

696
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: I want a divorce, like a divorce, Cynthia. I want

697
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,879
Speaker 1: a divorce. We're done. And again this is the day

698
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: that Ebbe Road comes around. And Ebbey Road, of course

699
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: this classic record, beautiful record. It ends with the end,

700
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: you know, and in the end, the love you make

701
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 1: is equal to the love you take, is equal to

702
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: the love you make. You know, this beautiful sort of

703
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: zen like uh sentiment. And I think for a lot

704
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: of people like that record it was sort of like, well,

705
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: this is like the gentle wrap up of the sixties.

706
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: You know, we've gone through all this trouble, but you know,

707
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: this record kind of is bringing us into like a

708
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: more peaceful landing. And meanwhile, behind the scenes, they're they're

709
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: falling apart. Literally the day that this record comes out,

710
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: it's just unbelievable, although um it doesn't get announced that day,

711
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: like John Lennon breaks up the Beatles, but Paul McCartney

712
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: ends up getting credit for it because in the spring

713
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: of seventy puts out his first solo record, McCartney, and

714
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: he puts out this Q and A with the record

715
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: like the most sort of cold way to announce the

716
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: greatest band of all time, like like we have the

717
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 1: Q and A here, right, Like what did he say

718
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 1: this the question? And he wrote this all himself. He's

719
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: interviewing himself. Are you planning a new album or single

720
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: with the Beatles? No period? Do you foresee a time

721
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: when Lennon McCartney becomes an active songwriting partnership again, no period?

722
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: It's just like, you know, you're just issuing a press

723
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: release to announce, you know, the death of Christ basically,

724
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: you know, like that's what we're doing here. It's like

725
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: so unbelievable and and you know what what sparked this

726
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: was like it was like a debate over was a

727
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: feud over release dates and because they were gonna put

728
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: out let it be the final Beatles record um right

729
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 1: around that same time, and they wanted to bump the

730
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 1: McCartney solo record to favor the two favor Later b right,

731
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: I mean, that was the controversy, and like, instead of

732
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 1: just allowing his record to get bump, McCartney's like, well,

733
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take credit for breaking up the Beatles, you know,

734
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,240
Speaker 1: take that. And the reason that John didn't say anything

735
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: initially is that Paul had been the one to say no, no, no, please,

736
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 1: don't say anything right now, and Alan Klein to actually,

737
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: we just signed a new deal with Capital of this

738
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: great new royalty rate or something, and if they find

739
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: out that the Pans split up, it's going to tank

740
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:37,879
Speaker 1: the whole deal. So be quiet, Be quiet, Be quiet.

741
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,800
Speaker 1: And I think Paul on some level thought, you know, okay,

742
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: maybe this is just John being John, and he's having

743
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: one of his outbursts, and he'll come back tomorrow and

744
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: and he'll forget that he said this, and the Beatles

745
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: will go on being the Beatles. And then that was

746
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: September sixty nine, and and Paul releases this you know,

747
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: really cold frigid Q and A in April of seventy,

748
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: so I think by that point it was clear, No,

749
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: the Beatles are actually and it's for the Bowl of

750
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: Cherry's record. Do you call it the Bowl of Cherry's

751
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: Record'll tell the McCartney record, which I love that record,

752
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,280
Speaker 1: although at the time it was it was really panned.

753
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: I mean, people didn't really take it seriously. It's a

754
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: it's a song. It's an album that I think is

755
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: consciously playing down the mythology of the Beatles. Were McCartney's

756
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 1: just recording by himself. There's a lot of song fragments,

757
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of songs that, uh sounds

758
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: like that sounds like they were written five minutes before

759
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: he recorded them. And at the time people looked at

760
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: it as like, well, this is like a lazy record.

761
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 1: It's a stoner's record. You know, he's not really trying

762
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: to do something great. Although I think now people listen

763
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: to it and they hear like, well, this is like

764
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: an indie rock record. This sounds like Pavement, you know,

765
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: this sounds like Guided by Voices. Um. But John Lennon

766
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: puts out a much different Well it's different in a way,

767
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: but I think it's kind of similar in a way.

768
00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: I mean, but it's Plastic Ono Band, which comes out

769
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 1: in December of seventy I mean, which are you a

770
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: plasticgonal band fan? Oh my god? I mean I love

771
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: them both for different reasons. I mean, it's it's not

772
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: one that I listened to on a Sunday when I'm like,

773
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: you know, cleaning and doing dishes. Let me put it

774
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: that way. It's what I listen to when I want

775
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,879
Speaker 1: to feel every bit of pain I've ever felt, all

776
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: at once, you know it. It opens with a funeral

777
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: bell and it closes with a song called My Mummy

778
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: Is Dead, and in between, in between there's not a

779
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: lot of warmth, not a lot of sun there. It's

780
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: it's probably the most raw, naked, unvarnished pain that's ever

781
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: been put on record. I mean it's it's very difficult

782
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 1: to listen to. Yeah, it's a brutal record, and I

783
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: think in terms of the mood, it's like the polar

784
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: opposite of the McCartney record. The McCartney record is very

785
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: much like a It feels like very homey. It feels

786
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: like an ode to like sort of the domesticated, you know,

787
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: post Beetles life that McCartney was starting to settle into.

788
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: But I do think one way I would link them

789
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: to go or is that I think Lennon was also

790
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: interested in doing something that sort of stripped stripped back

791
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: the grandiosity of the Beatles, you know, and of course

792
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: there's that famous song on the record God where he

793
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: says the dream is over. You know, I don't believe

794
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: in Beatles that whole thing. And whereas Paul approached that

795
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: with a lighter touch, more of an a reverend touch,

796
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: maybe Lennon was deadly serious and and and much more

797
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,959
Speaker 1: literal in a way. And it's interesting because we're gonna

798
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 1: get it as more in our next episode. But like

799
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: if you bring in the George Harrison record that came

800
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: out after the Beatles breakup, all Things must Pass, he

801
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,879
Speaker 1: went in the opposite direction that is like more grandiose

802
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: than any Beatles record, Triple album, that huge Field Specter,

803
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's like Wagner goes rock basically that album.

804
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: I also think too, like with the Plasticoto Band album,

805
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,280
Speaker 1: I always paired in my mind with the Rolling Stone

806
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: interview that John Lennon did when the record came out

807
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:05,280
Speaker 1: in December of seventy because that interview is super brutal

808
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: and super brutal to Paul McCartney, specifically, right to everybody.

809
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,280
Speaker 1: I mean, he takes shots at George Martin, their producer.

810
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: He basically makes it sound like the Beatles were a

811
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: living hell as soon as they got back from Hamburg

812
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: in sixty two, and that he was being stifled this

813
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: whole time. And and it's part of note that he

814
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: had just gone through primal scream therapy, which was this

815
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 1: controversial radical therapy to sort of uncover years of personal

816
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: trauma from his early day. So he was just a raw,

817
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: exposed nerve and he just was absolutely brutal to to Paul.

818
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 1: I mean, here's a sampling. Big bastards. That's what the

819
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: Beatles were. You have to be a bastard to make it.

820
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 1: That's a fact. And the Beatles are the biggest bastards

821
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: on earth. I'm sick of reading things that that say

822
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: Paul is the musician and George is the philosopher. I

823
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: wonder where I fit in. What was my contribution? I

824
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 1: think I'm some kind of guy who got who got

825
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 1: struck lucky at paula Paul's or something. They're so stupid

826
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: they don't even know he just I mean, that's like

827
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: and this this interview was so long that they ended

828
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 1: up making a full book out of it. I mean,

829
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,240
Speaker 1: it is is massive. It is just an incredible collection

830
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: of spite and by all that, I feel like we

831
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: should just like to another separate episode. Just reading it

832
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: back and forth, well, I mean it reads like a

833
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: therapy session does exactly. Like even even in those like

834
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 1: little excerpts that you were reading, it's like no one

835
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: thinks that no one thought that John Lennon was a

836
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,280
Speaker 1: sideman to Paul McCartney, Like no one was like knocking

837
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,720
Speaker 1: Lennon down saying that he wasn't important in the Beatles.

838
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 1: I mean, that was his own insecurity coming out. I

839
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: think probably because of maybe because of all the drug

840
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 1: abuse that he was going through in the late sixties

841
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: and maybe knowing that he wasn't as visible or as

842
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 1: active in leading the band at that point as Paul was.

843
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,280
Speaker 1: And it's just an interesting flip from the early dynamic

844
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 1: between those two because again, like John was, it seemed

845
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: like he was so confident, clearly the leader of the band.

846
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 1: And you know, John was the one who formed the band.

847
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: He's the one who like invited everyone to join um.

848
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: And then you get to the end of the band

849
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: where you know he's expressing doubts about you know, how

850
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: people perceive him in the group. You know, it's just

851
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: incredible turnaround, and it did not go unnoticed by Paul McCartney.

852
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that Paul McCartney bought that issue of

853
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone the day it came out, and he read

854
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 1: that super long interview cover to cover and I'm just picturing, like,

855
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,800
Speaker 1: you know, like Looney Tunes style steam coming out of

856
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: his ears. Reading that, well, Lynda wrote him a letter.

857
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 1: Lynda wrote him like a private letter, kind of being

858
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: like John, what what the hell like? Sort of on

859
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: her and Paul's behalf. And then John wrote this letter

860
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: that went to auction a few years ago, which was

861
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: just I rate, what did you say? Color? Like, I

862
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 1: don't know what goes on in your pretty perversion of

863
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: a mind. But he just like starts laying in the

864
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: Linda and my extension Paul obviously, I mean brew all there.

865
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 1: Whatever he said in Rolling Stones sort of pales in

866
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 1: comparison to the stuff that has said privately to each

867
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: other in in early seventy one. So John is, he said,

868
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: incredibly insecure at this stage, and he starts listening to

869
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 1: Paul solo albums kind of for messages that have directed

870
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: it him. And when Paul releases Ram in ninety one,

871
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 1: he finds one. There's the opening track called too Many People,

872
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: so great song, incredible song, too many people preaching practices,

873
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 1: Paul says, which Paul kind of meant, and he meant

874
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 1: he meant this this was true, as like, you know,

875
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: you were a teddy boy. What are you doing trying

876
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 1: to save the world with all these peace crusades? Now,

877
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: what do you what do you like preaching at people

878
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: now telling them what to do? Come on, like get

879
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: off it, um. And then he also saying you took

880
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,760
Speaker 1: your lucky break and broke it into which is pretty

881
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 1: self explanatory. And I think he also along with listening

882
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 1: to these messages, he was also in the course of

883
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: people taking shots at Paul for not trying hard enough,

884
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 1: and like I know, in that Rolling so An interview

885
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: he talked about like the first McCartney record not being

886
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 1: very good, and he later justified it by saying that, well,

887
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: I'm trying to motivate Paul to write better records, some

888
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: half decent. Although by the way, again I think Ram

889
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: is another example of like McCartney record, solo record that

890
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:17,959
Speaker 1: wasn't really thought of all that well at the time,

891
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 1: and and retrospect people look at that as being a

892
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: total classic record, which deservedly so. Ram is my favorite

893
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: Beatle solo record. Oh, it's up there for me. It

894
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: would probably like my number two or three. It's an

895
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: incredible record. Love Ram. But then, you know John, you

896
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 1: know this idea that he's giving constructive criticism to Paul,

897
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: though by by slagging him in the press, it gets

898
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 1: derailed a little bit when he puts out his second

899
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 1: post Beatles solo record, which is imagine comes out in

900
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: the seventy one and you know, we think of the

901
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: title track being this sort of utopian protest song very

902
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 1: you know, let's bring everyone together. It's a song that

903
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: celebrities like to sing on zoom calls, as we all know.

904
00:45:58,440 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: But then there's also a song called how do You

905
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: Sleep on that record, which is an incredibly venomous shot

906
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 1: at Paul McCartney. And really, like, there's no reason, there's

907
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: no need to like do a coded reading of that song.

908
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 1: I mean, it's clearly a shot at Paul McCartney, And

909
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: the implication of the title is like basically, how do

910
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: you sleep at night? You know, being such a ship head?

911
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 1: You know, like that's the that's the message of that song. Basically,

912
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: and the worst part is he has George Harrison playing

913
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,839
Speaker 1: slide guitar on and so just totally ganging up on Paul. Yeah,

914
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: I mean, is that line like, you know, the only

915
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 1: thing you've done was yesterday and since you've gone, you're

916
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 1: just another day, which is a reference to a one

917
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 1: of Paul's solo songs, and he calls his music music

918
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 1: and like those freaks was right when they said you

919
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 1: were dead. You know, that whole thing just extremely mean.

920
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: I mean, and I mean I think musically that song

921
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 1: is actually kind of awesome, but like lyrically it goes

922
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: like way over the line. Oh yeah, Alan Klein was

923
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: trying to him, like cut parts out because he's worried

924
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 1: about getting sued for Liabel. Yeah, it's a it's seen

925
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: almost just in how just this naked expression of animosity. Yeah,

926
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 1: it's it's it's also very tough to listen to. Paul responds,

927
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,280
Speaker 1: as Paul often does, with a sort of very quiet,

928
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: gentle less direct song on the first Wings album, Wildlife.

929
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: Later that year, a song called Dear Friend, which is

930
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 1: you know, about as as mournful as the title kind

931
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 1: of says, it's this really kind of haunting Piano ballad

932
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 1: an open letter to John that's just you know, dear friend,

933
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: what's the time? Is this really the borderline? Like, is

934
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: this really the end for us? Is this where we

935
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: part ways? Really devastating song, And thankfully it wasn't. I mean,

936
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: it seems like, you know, as the seventies progressed and

937
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: they were working through the business problems that they were

938
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,359
Speaker 1: going through, that they were able to at least talk

939
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 1: to each other and and not have all this ranker

940
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: going on. And it even gets to the point where

941
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy four, in the midst of John Lennon's

942
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 1: last weekend period in Los Angeles, they end up in

943
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 1: the same recording studio together and they make one of

944
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: the great, if also unlistenable bootlegs of all time, A

945
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: Touting a Snore in seventy four. It's incredible. It's like, okay,

946
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: it's like you've got like Stevie Wonder is here, Jesse

947
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: and Davis got Bobby Keys from the Rolling Stones band,

948
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 1: Harry Nelsondry Nielson of course, you know, he was always

949
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: in the picture. I think when lots of drugs we're

950
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 1: being taken in Los Angeles in the mid seventies. But yeah,

951
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: basically these guys are just getting loaded and they're doing

952
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: old like fifties covers like they do like Lucille by

953
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: Little Richard, they do stand by Me by Benny King,

954
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,359
Speaker 1: kind of like the rock and roll record that John

955
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 1: Lennon ended up putting out. I think that was way

956
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 1: less professional and like it's really they can't get through

957
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 1: a song. No, it's all yeah, like they're they're super

958
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: coked up, super drunk, and it's like you hear John

959
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 1: on Mike saying like you want some coake, Stevie, it's

960
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: gone around, you want to start. It's like it's amazing,

961
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: like that subtle at all, saying it right into the microphone,

962
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,760
Speaker 1: you know. But you know it's like mid seventies Los Angeles.

963
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: It's like you don't need to hide it all that much,

964
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 1: I guess. And you know, there's a part of me

965
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 1: that feels kind of sad that this was like the

966
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,760
Speaker 1: last time that Lennon and McCartney saying together on a record.

967
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 1: But also there's no other part of me that feels like,

968
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: well there it sounds like they're having a really good time,

969
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: and I kind of like that it wasn't this sort

970
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:35,320
Speaker 1: of pressure filled event where they would have felt, you know,

971
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 1: that the need to deliver up to the stand, make

972
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:43,279
Speaker 1: something good. Yeah, like they could just exactly exactly. And

973
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: it seems like after that they were able to get

974
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: together every now and then, like when Paul would be

975
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: in New York and he would stop by the Dakota, right,

976
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: I mean they I feel like they visited a couple

977
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 1: of times. They visited a few times. Yeah. I mean

978
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,800
Speaker 1: there's the really famous one, which I think was actually

979
00:49:57,840 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: the last time they ever physically saw each other. And

980
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: person is in April seventy six and they're hanging out

981
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: watching TV and SNL comes on, you know, the hit

982
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: new comedy show, and Lauren Michaels, the producer, comes on

983
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,720
Speaker 1: the TV and talks to them. He's doing the famous

984
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 1: bit when he says, you know, were you've been hearing

985
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 1: that the Beatles have been getting all these offers from

986
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 1: all around the world to reunite, all these huge, astronomical figures.

987
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: Worry we at NBC are prepared to offer you three

988
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: thousand dollars to get back together on our stage. And

989
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: and John and Paul, I mean they had no idea. Jona,

990
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 1: Paul we're together, not to mention like a couple of

991
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 1: blocks up town, but John and Paul are watching and

992
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 1: they almost get in a cab and do it. They

993
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 1: get so close. Yeah, that would have been That would

994
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 1: have been amazing if that happened, you know, And I

995
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:48,240
Speaker 1: know you've seen this. I feel like most people probably

996
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: haven't seen this. But like, when I think about that

997
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,359
Speaker 1: SNL incident, I also think about that v H one

998
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: movie that came out. I think The Two of Us

999
00:50:55,320 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 1: Two of Us, where it's like it's an account, it's

1000
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 1: like a fictionalized account of basically of Lennon McCartney hanging

1001
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 1: out that day and then you know, they see the

1002
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: SNL thing at night, and like they're just hanging out

1003
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:13,959
Speaker 1: all day in Lennon's apartment. And Jared Harris plays John Lennon.

1004
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 1: Jared Harris from mad Men. He played Lane Price on

1005
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 1: mad Men and he was also in Chernobyl, I think.

1006
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: And then Aidan Quinn plays Paul McCartney and the scene

1007
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: I always remember from that movie is where they smoke

1008
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 1: weed and they go to the park advance to a

1009
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 1: reggae band. Oh yeah, the cops come. Yeah, it's great.

1010
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:37,839
Speaker 1: They don't look anything like either of them. But Jared

1011
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: Harris is incredible as John Lennon. He's got the voice,

1012
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 1: especially in like that era. Oh yeah, it's so good.

1013
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: That's not good, but it's worth watching, I'll say that.

1014
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 1: I don't know. I wouldn't say it's good, but it's entertaining,

1015
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: especially if you're a Beatles fan. And I'm pretty sure

1016
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 1: that like you could find it on YouTube, yeah, because

1017
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 1: I think I think I've watched I've seen that movie,

1018
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: like I think four or five times. It's not a

1019
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 1: good movie, but it's a movie I like a lot. So, uh,

1020
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: definitely check out two of us on on YouTube. So

1021
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 1: and of course, the tragedy of that movie, of the

1022
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: tragic ending, is that that supposedly was the last time

1023
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: that John and Paul saw each other, because of course

1024
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: John Lennon was tragically murdered in December of and um,

1025
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: you know, like I've read Beatles books that have talked

1026
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:26,359
Speaker 1: about how there was a possibility, like a good possibility,

1027
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 1: that they were probably going to reunite, like at some point,

1028
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 1: like there have been discussions going on for years. I

1029
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,759
Speaker 1: think it was in Peter Doggett's book You Never Give

1030
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:37,359
Speaker 1: Me Your Money there's like a little thing in there

1031
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: about how there have been discussions about maybe setting something

1032
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: up in Central Park, like a big reunion concert. This

1033
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 1: was before the Simon and Garfunkel concert that occurred in

1034
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: the early eighties, but of course it would never happen, uh,

1035
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:52,399
Speaker 1: you know, because of Lennon's murder. Yeah, there was talking

1036
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: about writing together too. It was also, yeah, that it

1037
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 1: definitely seems like it would have gone It would have

1038
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 1: gone that way had had tragedy not not in her

1039
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,359
Speaker 1: beaned and of course that there's sort of cruelest part

1040
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 1: of the whole story was Paul's reaction is public reaction

1041
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 1: to it. Oh man, he gets basically, he goes into

1042
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 1: the studio to kind of like just distract himself, and

1043
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 1: he's with George Martin and who's obviously goes way way back,

1044
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 1: and they kind of cried together and did whatever they

1045
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:21,320
Speaker 1: could do, and he gets button holed by all the

1046
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,439
Speaker 1: press when he leaves the studio and and the only

1047
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 1: words you can really mustard are yeah, it's a drag,

1048
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 1: isn't it. And of course, you know, pain all on

1049
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 1: his face, but when you see it written down on

1050
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 1: the paper, he just got slacked, so he's just adding

1051
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 1: insulted to grave grave grave injury. It was just this this,

1052
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: this press slander. And again you can go on YouTube

1053
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 1: you can see that clip of him saying and he's

1054
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: chewing gum too at the same time, which makes it

1055
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:50,800
Speaker 1: look even more glib. And he's talked about it after that,

1056
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: and he just said, look, you know, I'm not one

1057
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 1: who's going to have this sort of theatrical public reaction

1058
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: to death. Let's like, you know, he said that, like

1059
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 1: he went home that night and he cried like all

1060
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: night long, because you know, that's something he felt like

1061
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 1: he wanted to do in private. And you know, this

1062
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 1: is a guy who had been in the public eye

1063
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: for uh, you know, nearly twenty years at that point.

1064
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 1: I'm sure that there was a certain armor that built up,

1065
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 1: especially in front of reporters. Um. But yeah, you know,

1066
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 1: you don't need to write an obituary in the immediate

1067
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 1: aftermath of your friend's death. But you maybe you don't

1068
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,320
Speaker 1: want to say it's a drag. Yeah, you know, you

1069
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: may want to be a little heavier than that. But

1070
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 1: you know, I think he made up for it though

1071
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:32,439
Speaker 1: with the with the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

1072
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,919
Speaker 1: induction John in ninety. I think it was one which

1073
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:40,479
Speaker 1: is one of the best Hall of Fame induction speeches ever.

1074
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I I can't get I can't even think

1075
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 1: about it. That getting choked up. I'm getting choked up

1076
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:46,760
Speaker 1: right now. If you've haven't seen it, go to YouTube

1077
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:48,800
Speaker 1: and watch it. It is absolutely beautiful. It's written in

1078
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: the form of an open letter from Paul to John

1079
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: and it's just little snapshots of memories. That is an

1080
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: instance where you could see the facade crack, because I

1081
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 1: think part of the power of that speech is that

1082
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: it looks like Paul McCartney is on the verge of

1083
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:04,799
Speaker 1: tears the entire time he's giving that speech, even though

1084
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:08,720
Speaker 1: they were able to reconcile somewhat in their final years.

1085
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 1: In Lennon's final years, Yeah, it feels like that speech

1086
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,760
Speaker 1: was like the first time that like McCartney allowed himself

1087
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: to be publicly emotional about Lenin and in a way

1088
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 1: kind of like hell, I think it was healing for

1089
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 1: fans to see that it's like, oh, yeah, these guys

1090
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 1: actually do love each other. You know, they did love

1091
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 1: each other and it wasn't just them arguing, you know,

1092
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 1: for like the last twenty or thirty years or however

1093
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: long it's been um at that point. So, yeah, that

1094
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 1: was an incredible speech. We're gonna take a quick break

1095
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: to get a word from our sponsor before we get

1096
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 1: to more rivals. You're talking earlier about how this is

1097
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 1: like a Greek myth where the story has been told

1098
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 1: so many times, it has such great significance for people,

1099
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 1: And you know, I think Lennon and McCartney themselves also

1100
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: signify something very distinct in the minds of fans. Um.

1101
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 1: I mean, don't you say. I mean, it seems like

1102
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 1: they're not just people, but they're sort of archetypes, and

1103
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: people align themselves like with one or the other. Not

1104
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:16,839
Speaker 1: only do people align themselves as one or the other,

1105
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,240
Speaker 1: but you see this kind of dynamic play out in bands.

1106
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: When we did the leve On Robbie episode, I always

1107
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 1: felt that that leve On kind of had the John

1108
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 1: Lennon role of being the sort of brash guy with

1109
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 1: attitude maybe needed to be focused a little bit, and

1110
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 1: then you had Robbie who was sort of the more

1111
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 1: of a pr minded guy who knew how to work

1112
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 1: the system and kind of focus in the energy of

1113
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 1: his other more creative, brash partner, and I think that

1114
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:43,879
Speaker 1: the sort of dynamic you can really kind of trace

1115
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 1: it back to Lennon and McCartney. There's I mean, I know,

1116
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 1: it's it's very unfair to both men and their artistic legacy.

1117
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 1: If you actually look at it and scrutinize it, it

1118
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 1: doesn't work. Nobody is a certain way add percent of

1119
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 1: the time, obviously. But you've got Paul, the ambitious, pr guy, workaholic,

1120
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 1: who's like sees himself as kind of like a craftsman

1121
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 1: and an all around entertainer. And then you've got John, who,

1122
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,360
Speaker 1: you know, it's this uncompromising wild child driven by his

1123
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 1: gut and what he lacks in technical precision he makes

1124
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: up for with this attitude and swagger. And those partnerships

1125
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 1: tend to be really, really really successful until they're very

1126
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 1: very not. They almost always self destruct at some point

1127
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:24,920
Speaker 1: because just by their nature, it's it's just one side

1128
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: views the other as being completely unfocused and all over

1129
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 1: the place, and the other side views sort of the

1130
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 1: Paul type, as just being rigid and confining and and

1131
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 1: and hectoring and just like a boss figure. So it's

1132
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 1: interesting that they do need one another, I think to

1133
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 1: reach their full potential. Yeah, I mean, you know, like

1134
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 1: you said, if you reduced them down to their archetypes,

1135
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 1: you are leaving a whole lot out. And I think

1136
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:50,920
Speaker 1: we've touched on that already in this episode. But it

1137
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 1: doesn't change the fact that when people think of Paul

1138
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 1: McCartney either thinking of like pop, you know, like you said, craftsmanship,

1139
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 1: they're thinking of commerce. I think when you think about

1140
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 1: John Lennon, you think think about art, you're thinking about rock,

1141
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 1: you're thinking about risk, you know, all those sorts of things. Um,

1142
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 1: when I think is also interesting about this is that

1143
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:12,479
Speaker 1: along with all those sort of big picture archetypal things,

1144
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: I think what people connect with in this story is that,

1145
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 1: you know, as legendary as these guys are, the arc

1146
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: of their relationship is actually pretty relatable, you know. I

1147
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 1: think we all have instances in our lives of people

1148
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 1: that we were very close to when we were young,

1149
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 1: and it's a very intense connection, the kind of connection

1150
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 1: that you're not going to have later in life, just

1151
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 1: because your life is more full, you know, like when

1152
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 1: you're when you're young, you can actually spend eight, ten,

1153
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 1: twelve hours a day with your friend you know, like

1154
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 1: that's because you have all the time in the world,

1155
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 1: and then you get older and you experience other things

1156
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 1: in your life and you you evolve and you change

1157
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 1: and you drift away from that person. And that's essentially

1158
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 1: what happened with with John and Paul. And I think

1159
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: it's something that like, if you read this story you

1160
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 1: can get residents from it. It's like, well, yeah, yeah,

1161
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 1: I wasn't in the Beatles, but I had my I

1162
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 1: had a Paul McCartney in my life, where I had

1163
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 1: a John Lennon in my life. Um, and I understand,

1164
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 1: you know why maybe it couldn't work out between these

1165
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 1: guys if you're defending Paul McCartney in this battle, like,

1166
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 1: what what would be your case for Paul? I happily

1167
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 1: will He's He's actually my favorite Beatle I I you know,

1168
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 1: despite his reputation as sort of Mr. Silly Love Songs Balladier,

1169
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 1: I think it's responsible for the beatles most artistically daring music.

1170
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 1: I mean, while John was out at his you know

1171
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 1: mcmanchon watching daytime TV, Paul was going to John Cage

1172
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 1: concerts and stuff, and you know, even a song like

1173
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 1: Tomorrow never knows with all the tape loops on it,

1174
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 1: which is probably this side of Revolution number nine, the

1175
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 1: weirdest song the Beatles ever did. Maybe that's all Paul,

1176
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 1: it's John singing it, but all those tape loops and

1177
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 1: stuff was all his influence. And then all the orchestral

1178
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 1: stuff like that, the big orchestral crescendo on um Sergeant Pepper,

1179
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 1: I mean Sergeant Pepper as a whole, the whole sort

1180
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 1: of concept and of making an album as a standalone

1181
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 1: piece of art that came about when the Beatles didn't

1182
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 1: want to tour anymore and instead this piece of art

1183
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 1: could go out and be their message to the world.

1184
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 1: That I think was all Paul. I mean John, I

1185
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 1: don't think progressed as much musically beyond like maybe the

1186
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 1: influence of someone like Bob Dylan, who showed him that

1187
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: song lyrics could be meaningful and could could say what

1188
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 1: either is deep inside of you or comment on what

1189
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 1: you see in the world. But I think that that

1190
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 1: Paul musically had a more creative arc. And uh yeah,

1191
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 1: and then also as we said earlier too, I mean

1192
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 1: Paul is really I think responsible for a lot of

1193
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 1: the great music I went I've interviewed Ringo a number

1194
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:35,160
Speaker 1: of times now, and every time I talked to me,

1195
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 1: he said, you know, you really have Paul to thank

1196
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 1: for everything after, you know, the White Album and beyond,

1197
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: because we never would have gotten it together to go

1198
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 1: in the studio and make all that stuff like that

1199
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:45,640
Speaker 1: was all Paul who made the call. So you know,

1200
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 1: if anything else, we thank him for that. I respect

1201
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:49,440
Speaker 1: the fact that you waited this long to mention that

1202
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 1: you interviewed Ringo star several times, you know, I I

1203
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 1: admire your restraint for that because I have not interviewed

1204
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 1: Ringo at all. Um. Yeah, I mean I agree with

1205
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: everything you said. I think people especially of like subsequent generations.

1206
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 1: You know, neither one of us are baby boomers. You know,

1207
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 1: we both were born well after the Beatles breakup. Um.

1208
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 1: But of course the Beatles have continued to find new

1209
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 1: audiences with each new generation, and usually with you know,

1210
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 1: the younger generations, they gravitate to the later Beatles albums,

1211
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 1: you know, Sergeant Pepper through certainly Ebby Road and maybe

1212
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: also Let It Be. And those are the Paul Beatles,

1213
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 1: you know that those are the albums where Paul was

1214
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 1: at the forefront. You know, the early Beatles, like the

1215
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 1: Hard Days Night era, even after the Rubbert sol and

1216
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 1: like in Revolver, which are all awesome, incredible records. I

1217
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 1: feel like those were, like, you know, John was the

1218
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 1: guy in the driver's seat, Paul becoming more so around

1219
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 1: the time of Revolver, but certainly John felt like more

1220
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 1: the leader of the band early on, but certainly later on.

1221
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 1: If you love the Leader Beatles, that was Paul's band. UM.

1222
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 1: I think also in terms of their solo careers, I

1223
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 1: don't think there's any question that Paul McCartney has had

1224
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 1: the most impressive solo career, even if you just look

1225
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 1: at his work in the seventies, which was when Lennon

1226
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:09,520
Speaker 1: was also you know, putting out records UM records like

1227
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: McCartney ram Banned on the Rand Little l Around McCartney too,

1228
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:17,120
Speaker 1: which came out around the time of Double Fantasy for Lennin.

1229
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 1: Those are great records that are really eccentric and experimental

1230
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 1: and turn people off in many cases when they were

1231
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 1: released and then we're rediscovered, you know, decades later and

1232
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:34,760
Speaker 1: rightful daknowledge for being great records. Uh. I think with Paul,

1233
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 1: you know, his experimental side and his subversive side. It

1234
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 1: gets lost when we reduced these guys down to archetypes.

1235
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 1: But I think in his solo career it's much more evident.

1236
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 1: Whereas I think lennon solo records are. He put out

1237
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 1: some wonderful solo records, but they kind of stick in

1238
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 1: the same lane for the most part. I don't think

1239
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 1: that they go as wide. I will say, though, and

1240
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:03,560
Speaker 1: switching over to the pro John Lennon's side, that uh,

1241
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:09,000
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about who matters more, who's more important

1242
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 1: as like a figure or as a symbol. I think

1243
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:15,560
Speaker 1: John Lennon gets the edge there. I think McCartney is

1244
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 1: a wonderful musician. He's beloved. I don't think there's a

1245
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 1: more beloved musician on the planet except maybe Bruce Springsteen

1246
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:24,560
Speaker 1: at this point or Stevie Wonder. You know, those guys

1247
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 1: are like among the most beloved, or Joni Mitchell. But

1248
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 1: I mean John Lennon is like an icon of like peace,

1249
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 1: and it kind of represents two people like the best

1250
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:37,320
Speaker 1: aspects of human nature. You know. As much as easy

1251
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 1: as it is to roll your eyes at famous people

1252
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:42,919
Speaker 1: when they saying imagine on zoom calls, there's a reason

1253
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 1: why people think of, imagine when times are tough, because

1254
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:49,720
Speaker 1: Lennon just has that kind of stature for people. Um,

1255
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:54,520
Speaker 1: some degree it's overblown, but at the on the other hand, UM,

1256
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:58,000
Speaker 1: it is a genuine feeling that people have toward him. Um.

1257
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 1: And I just feel like if you're talking about people

1258
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: like that, I just feel like John Lennon is like

1259
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 1: in the company of like a Bob Marley, you know,

1260
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 1: like Bob Marley has that same kind of status. Um,

1261
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 1: these sort of martyr type figures that people really value

1262
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:17,160
Speaker 1: for something kind of greater than just music. You know,

1263
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 1: McCartney can't be expected to compete with that. It's not

1264
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 1: his fault that he doesn't have that, but I think

1265
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:26,120
Speaker 1: without question Lennon does have that kind of significance. Yeah.

1266
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:30,600
Speaker 1: And Paul later said after John's death, when he was

1267
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:32,480
Speaker 1: talking to a friend, he said, you know, John died

1268
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 1: a legend. I'm going to die an old man, and

1269
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 1: which is a brutal way to put it, but I

1270
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:40,120
Speaker 1: mean he kind of nailed it. I mean. And also

1271
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:42,560
Speaker 1: I don't think there would have been a Beatles without John,

1272
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:44,960
Speaker 1: no chance. I mean, it was his group, he started it.

1273
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:47,160
Speaker 1: He and but he liked to be a gang leader,

1274
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 1: whereas Paul was kind of more out for self. I mean,

1275
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:51,959
Speaker 1: that's not slagging him off. I think it's just true.

1276
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 1: And so I think without John, Paul would have almost

1277
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 1: just been like a frontman of a faceless group, or

1278
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 1: like an all around entertainer. But I don't know. I mean,

1279
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 1: the whole heart and soul of the band thing is

1280
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 1: so trite and overused, but I think that's what John

1281
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 1: really is to me. I mean, even when he was

1282
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:07,920
Speaker 1: taking a backseat to Paul creatively, I think that that

1283
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:11,240
Speaker 1: that energy there, even when he's frustrating you, even when

1284
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:13,960
Speaker 1: he's willfully pissing you off or alienating you, you felt

1285
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 1: like he was open enough to connect to him in

1286
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 1: a way that I don't think Paul really let you

1287
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:21,400
Speaker 1: as much. Unless there's those moments like at the Rock

1288
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,240
Speaker 1: and Roll Hall of Fame, you felt like you knew John.

1289
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:26,320
Speaker 1: I think that's what made him an icon. Yeah, I mean,

1290
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 1: he was definitely he had his heart more on his

1291
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 1: sleeve then McCartney did, sometimes to a fault, but I

1292
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:37,320
Speaker 1: think mostly to the benefit of his ultimate artistic legacy.

1293
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:39,520
Speaker 1: Because I know when I first got into the Beatles,

1294
01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:41,440
Speaker 1: like John Lennon was my guy like he was the

1295
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:43,439
Speaker 1: one I connected with, And I feel like when you're

1296
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:46,720
Speaker 1: a kid, it's normal to gravitate to John Lennon like

1297
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:49,360
Speaker 1: that maybe should be the one that you respond to

1298
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:52,760
Speaker 1: because he is more like a messianic type figure, and

1299
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 1: he's someone that I think appeals like new generations of teenagers. Uh,

1300
01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:00,200
Speaker 1: you know, for that reason, then maybe later on you

1301
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:02,400
Speaker 1: start to see the charms of Paul or George or

1302
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:06,280
Speaker 1: or Ringo. When we talk about these guys together, you

1303
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:09,240
Speaker 1: know why they should come together. I mean, I feel

1304
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 1: like this case is pretty self evident. I mean Lennon McCartney.

1305
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 1: I mean, why should Lennon McCartney be together. I mean,

1306
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 1: come on, it's the greatest partnership in rock and they're

1307
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:22,200
Speaker 1: Lennon McCartney. When people talk about other great partnerships, they say, oh,

1308
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:25,480
Speaker 1: you're the Lennon McCartney of dentists, You're the Lendon McCartney

1309
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:29,720
Speaker 1: of of card dealerships. You know, this is the idealized

1310
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:32,120
Speaker 1: partnership that we would all want to be. We all

1311
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:34,960
Speaker 1: want to find our John Lennon or or our Paul McCartney,

1312
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 1: someone who's going to make us whole, who's going to

1313
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:43,160
Speaker 1: allow us to achieve some greater than our parts and

1314
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 1: greater than anyone else's parts. There's still no other partnership

1315
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:50,840
Speaker 1: really that comes close to what they achieved together. As

1316
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 1: great as they were a part of what they created.

1317
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:55,439
Speaker 1: It's going to last as long as people care about

1318
01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 1: rock music. Yeah, you know, I mean they are the

1319
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:01,360
Speaker 1: the defining example of partnership bringing out the best in

1320
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:04,680
Speaker 1: each other. Yeah. I think that to even argue beyond

1321
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 1: that is pointless because it's just it is the gold

1322
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:10,320
Speaker 1: standard of that. It's a great parable. But friendship, you know,

1323
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:12,840
Speaker 1: like what two friends can achieve together and how they

1324
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 1: can follow apart. And uh, I have to say Jordan

1325
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 1: that I hope you and I never break up. Stephen,

1326
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:21,640
Speaker 1: I will, I promise you, I will never write how

1327
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:24,680
Speaker 1: do you Sleep About You? Or we'll do like one

1328
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 1: less podcast on like the Roof of Your Road. That

1329
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:32,320
Speaker 1: our grand conclusion. But of course we can't do a

1330
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:34,640
Speaker 1: grand conclusion because we have to do the second part

1331
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:39,479
Speaker 1: of Beatle Brawls next week dark Horse, and we're gonna

1332
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 1: see Lennon McCartney come back together and square off against

1333
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:45,720
Speaker 1: their old mate George Harrison. And I'm really excited to

1334
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 1: get into that because it's like a little I mean,

1335
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 1: I love talking about Lennon McCartney, but like this is

1336
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:51,480
Speaker 1: a well known story. I feel like this is like

1337
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:54,800
Speaker 1: a less heralded rivalry. Oh yeah, no, this one. There's

1338
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:56,240
Speaker 1: a lot more to this one, and I think that

1339
01:07:56,320 --> 01:07:58,600
Speaker 1: most people realize too. All Right, man, well, I'm excited

1340
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:00,360
Speaker 1: to get into it. I hope you guys enjoyed the

1341
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 1: first part of our two part arc on the Beatles.

1342
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:13,960
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more rivals next week. YEA. Rivals

1343
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:16,400
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. The executive producers

1344
01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:19,240
Speaker 1: are shaun Ty Toone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers

1345
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 1: are Taylor chicogn and Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan's run Talk.

1346
01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 1: I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard, please

1347
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:26,840
Speaker 1: subscribe to leave us a review. For more podcasts for

1348
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:30,400
Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1349
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:32,320
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.