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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the best of Coast to Coast podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Become a Coast Insider and you can hear this complete conversation,

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Speaker 1: of the troubling cattle mutilation phenomenon, worried some instances of

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Speaker 1: clandestine c i, a torture, and the evidence that the

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Speaker 1: lost city of Atlantis may have really once existed. Check

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Speaker 1: to Coast to Coast a m dot com and signing

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Speaker 1: up for Coast Insider. Now. Here's a highlight from Coast

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Speaker 1: to Coast AM on iHeart Radio and welcome back to

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Speaker 1: Coast to Coast George Norri with you. Boston gangster James

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Speaker 1: Whitey Bulger's medical classification was suddenly in in expletely changed

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Speaker 1: to suggest his health had improved, leading to his transfer

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Speaker 1: to that West Virginia prison where he was murdered to

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Speaker 1: organized crime figures from Massachusetts suspected of killing him have

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Speaker 1: been placed in isolation at the USPN Tentory Hazelton while

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Speaker 1: federal investigators work to build the case. Now. Back in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and fifteen, there was a movie called Black

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Speaker 1: Mass starring Johnny Depp, who played the part of Whitey Bulger.

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Speaker 1: You've got two minutes and I'm gonna come read to it.

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Speaker 1: I have it on very good authority that Gennaro in

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Speaker 1: Julo is planning to have you murdered. And how does

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Speaker 1: he plan to achieve that. That's kind of information that

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Speaker 1: I said, I guess and that's the kind of information

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Speaker 1: and we could provide. John, do you know what I

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Speaker 1: do to rest? It ain't ran Jimmy. It's alliance, alliance

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Speaker 1: between me and the between you and me. T J.

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Speaker 1: English is a noted journalist screenwriter, author of the New

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Speaker 1: York Times bestseller Havanna Nocturne, Patty Whack in the Savage City,

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Speaker 1: as well as Where the Ties Were Buried, Whitey Bulger,

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Speaker 1: and the World That Made Him. His screenwriting credits include

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Speaker 1: episodes for the television crime dramas and NYPD Blues, The

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Speaker 1: Blues and Harmicide, for which he was awarded the Humanous Prize.

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Speaker 1: And let us check in with t J. English. T J.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the program. Hey, thanks for having me. Good

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Speaker 1: to be here, you too, Were you shocked when you

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Speaker 1: heard the news about Whitey Bulls You're getting murdered in prison? No,

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Speaker 1: I really wasn't. I don't think anyone who followed the

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Speaker 1: story of Whitey Bulger was shocked. I mean, we were

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Speaker 1: all surprised in a way that he lived as long

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Speaker 1: as he did, that he wasn't killed by somebody before that.

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Speaker 1: But the reason was they had him in isolated lock

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Speaker 1: up um for the previous years that he spent in prison,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't until this recent prison moved that he

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Speaker 1: was put out in the open in general population, though

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Speaker 1: that so that someone could kill him. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of questions that need to be answered about that, but

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Speaker 1: I think for many people who followed the Boulger story,

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Speaker 1: it seemed almost like a logical and fitting ending to

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Speaker 1: a very violent life. Yeah, you're absolutely right about that.

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Speaker 1: He died at the age of eighty nine. They gouged

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Speaker 1: out his eyes, or at least try to and cut

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Speaker 1: off his tongue. Were they trying to send somebody a message?

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Speaker 1: T J Well. The gouging of the eyes and cutting

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Speaker 1: out of the tongue is a common way that um

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Speaker 1: snitches had murdered informants rats. So that's the message I

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Speaker 1: believe they were trying to send. And I think that

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Speaker 1: they were just sending that message to the world. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think the interesting thing about his death is, you know,

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Speaker 1: he was eighty nine years old with a heart condition. Um,

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Speaker 1: if I were if I were a mob hit man

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Speaker 1: and I was assigned my my first hit, I hope

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Speaker 1: it's an eighty nine year old man with a heart

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Speaker 1: condition and a wheelchair, because that couldn't have been too

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Speaker 1: difficult of a hit to pull off. They could have

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Speaker 1: just led him. He would have died in another six

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Speaker 1: to twelve months. So they decided to kill him. And

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Speaker 1: I think what that was is that to the criminal

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Speaker 1: underworld and to the people within the criminal justice system

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Speaker 1: who had a grudge against Whitey Bulger and there are many, Um,

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Speaker 1: the idea of Whitey Bulger dying of natural causes was

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Speaker 1: offensive to them, and so somebody took matters into their

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Speaker 1: own hands. Now, why do you, of course, was the

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Speaker 1: hitman for the mob in Boston? What did he do

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Speaker 1: t J for the mob to get so ticked off

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Speaker 1: at him while he informed on them. He was an

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Speaker 1: informant for the FBI for for close to twenty years,

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Speaker 1: and his relationship with the FBI was based on him

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Speaker 1: feeding them information specifically about the Italian mafia. And the

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Speaker 1: irony of all that is is that why he didn't

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Speaker 1: really know that much about the in mafia in Boston

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Speaker 1: or New England. He got his information from his partner,

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Speaker 1: Steve Fleming, who was Italian and did have a relationship

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Speaker 1: with the mafia. And Whitey Bolger would get information from

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Speaker 1: Steve Flemming and feed it to his FBI handlers and

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Speaker 1: make it look like he had some kind of inside

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Speaker 1: information on the Italians. So, when Whitey Bolgo was finally

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Speaker 1: arrested and put on trial in two thousand and in

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Speaker 1: very dramatic trial that I that I wrote about for

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Speaker 1: the book where the Bodies were Buried, Um, that all

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Speaker 1: came out in the wash in great detail about White's

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Speaker 1: relationship with the FBI and his feeding information to the

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Speaker 1: FBI to make cases against the mafia. Well, when he

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Speaker 1: was arrested in Santa Monica, California, outside his apartment in

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Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, who who got him? Because the Feds

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Speaker 1: obviously we're working with him, right. No, at that point

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Speaker 1: the relationship had ended. He had he had his relationship

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Speaker 1: with the FBI, but not with other law enforcement agencies.

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Speaker 1: So in the early nineties, the Massachusetts State Police and

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Speaker 1: the d A, we're building a case against Whitey Bolger,

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Speaker 1: and they came. They were coming to get him in

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Speaker 1: and his FBI handler, John Connolly, who had then his

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Speaker 1: his liaison and the FBI who had since retired but

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Speaker 1: was still helping bows are out picked him off that

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Speaker 1: the that he was going to be arrested, and that's

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Speaker 1: when Whitey Bolger went on the run. And his relationship

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Speaker 1: with the FBI he had been closed as an informant

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Speaker 1: by then. Anyway, what was going on with his childhood

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Speaker 1: t J to make him go the way he went, Well,

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Speaker 1: he was an old he was the oldest in the

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Speaker 1: family and Uh and his father had an industrial accident

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Speaker 1: when when he was when the boys were young, and

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Speaker 1: he lost a leg and he became disabled and wasn't

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Speaker 1: able to really provide for the family. And the theory

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Speaker 1: is that among the armchair psychologists is that Bulger Uh

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Speaker 1: was um affected by his father's weakness and inability when

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Speaker 1: he became handicapped and determined that he would never be

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Speaker 1: in a position of vulnerability like that or or any

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Speaker 1: kind of position of vulnerability. So he went out into

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Speaker 1: into the world and started to take matters into his

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Speaker 1: own hands. He became a professional criminal pretty early in life.

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Speaker 1: Around the age of sixteen, he started robbing banks. He

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Speaker 1: became a bank robber in his late teens in early twenties. Um,

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Speaker 1: And he was very devoted to this life of crime.

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Speaker 1: And he got caught out in Indiana in nineteen and

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Speaker 1: wound up being sentenced to prison. And uh, he did

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Speaker 1: his time in prison, and when he got out, he

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Speaker 1: went right back into the king, right back to Boston

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Speaker 1: and went right back into the criminal life. And in fact,

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Speaker 1: that's when he became a more organized form of criminal.

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Speaker 1: He joined the criminal gang and became part of the

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Speaker 1: criminal underworld in Boston. But he was very dedicated um

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Speaker 1: to the concept of being a criminal, and he didn't

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Speaker 1: really waver from that. Ever. Where did he get his

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Speaker 1: nickname Whitey? Was it because of his white beard? His

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Speaker 1: his his hair was blonde, very blonde from earlier in life.

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Speaker 1: That's how he got that nickname. Where he if you, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Did you ever have a chance to

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Speaker 1: interview him? No, he's never submitted to an interview with anyone. Um,

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Speaker 1: I tried. I wrote him letters before his trial and

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Speaker 1: after his trial because I knew he was something of

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Speaker 1: a fan. When he was arrested in Santa mar Anka

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Speaker 1: in two thousand eleven and then confiscated all his belongings.

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Speaker 1: One of his belongings was a book that I wrote

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Speaker 1: called Patty Wax by the Way, History of the Irish

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Speaker 1: American Gangster. While the boats mentioned in that book, In fact,

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Speaker 1: Boulger was still on the run when I wrote it,

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Speaker 1: and I used Boulger as sort of a framing device

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Speaker 1: in that book, opened the book referring to him, and

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Speaker 1: then ended the book referring to him. His copy of

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Speaker 1: the book that they confiscated, all the sections in the

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Speaker 1: book that we're about him were underlined and highlighted. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's the kind of guy he was. He took a

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Speaker 1: very active interest in how he was being presented in

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Speaker 1: the popular media. And I'd also been told that he

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Speaker 1: was a fan of the very first book I ever published,

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Speaker 1: a book called The West East, which was about the

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Speaker 1: Irish mob in neighborhood in New York called Hell's Kitchen,

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Speaker 1: and they were a hyper violent organization that cut up

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Speaker 1: the bodies that of their murder victims and made the

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Speaker 1: bodies disappear. Apparently older was fascinated with that book. I

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Speaker 1: was told by the woman he lived with for thirty years,

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Speaker 1: not the woman he went on the run with, but

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Speaker 1: the woman he was his common law wife, Teresa Stanley.

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Speaker 1: I interviewed her a couple of times, and she said

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Speaker 1: he was always up late reading that book, even though

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Speaker 1: she know she knew that he had read it and

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Speaker 1: finished it once already, but he would sit up at

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Speaker 1: night reading it. And also a couple of his underlings,

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Speaker 1: including Kevin Weeks, who was his right hand man for

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Speaker 1: many years, said that he used to give him that

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Speaker 1: book and and and almost assigned it as a homework

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Speaker 1: assignment and told him to read it. And when I

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Speaker 1: met his lawyer at the RICO the racketeering trial, introduced myself.

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Speaker 1: The lawyer said, yeah, I know who you are. When

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Speaker 1: he said, when I took Whitey Bolger's case, the first

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Speaker 1: thing he did was hand me two books. One was

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Speaker 1: a military history book and the other one was The

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Speaker 1: West Season. He said, you need to read these two

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Speaker 1: books if you want to know about my mindset as

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Speaker 1: a criminal. So I had I thought I had a

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Speaker 1: fan out there, and I wrote um and uh. But

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Speaker 1: by the time I wrote um, he probably figured out

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Speaker 1: I'd gone over to the other side because I've been

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Speaker 1: interviewing people who had once spend his associates who were

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Speaker 1: now enemies of hit Kevin Weeks and a couple of others,

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Speaker 1: And so he figured I'd become friendly with these guys

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Speaker 1: and I was talking to them, and uh, by then

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Speaker 1: he didn't want to have anything to do with me.

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Speaker 1: You're a journalist, you want to get all the sides.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, I would have said I was. I

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Speaker 1: made my case in the letter that I sent him,

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Speaker 1: telling him, look, I'll be fair. Um, you know, I'll

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Speaker 1: hear what you have to say, but you have to

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Speaker 1: understand why do Bolger went to jail never admitting to

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Speaker 1: any of these crimes. He actually went to jail denying

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Speaker 1: that he had ever been an informant for the FBI,

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Speaker 1: which was kind of outlandish given all the documentation that

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Speaker 1: showed that he was an FBI informant. So he was

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Speaker 1: a man who preferred to live in a delusionary state

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Speaker 1: of being. And even if I had gotten an interview

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Speaker 1: with him, I don't think it would have been very

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Speaker 1: fruitful because he he wouldn't have admitted he's He went

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Speaker 1: to his grave denying publicly that he did a lot

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Speaker 1: of the criminal activities that he did, especially the murders,

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Speaker 1: and particularly the murders of two women that he strangled

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Speaker 1: to death with his bare hands. Um, he was never

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Speaker 1: going to admit his guilt in those crimes, and he

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Speaker 1: was he was never going to admit his guilt in general.

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Speaker 1: He just wasn't the kind of guy who could examine

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Speaker 1: himself in that way and be honest with himself or

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Speaker 1: with anybody else. Do you think he was in uh

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Speaker 1: denial P t J. Yeah, Yeah, I would say so. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've interviewed a lot of criminals over the years,

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Speaker 1: writing a lot of different kinds of crime books. Um,

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Speaker 1: and you meet all types. You do meet all types.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's the obvious, so theeopathic types that operate

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Speaker 1: in the criminal world, but there's also surprisingly intelligent guys,

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Speaker 1: and there's people who got into it almost by accident,

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Speaker 1: and you just you meet all personality types that wind

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Speaker 1: up in the criminal world. Bolger had many characteristics that

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Speaker 1: were admirable, many admirable leadership qualities and he was a

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Speaker 1: very well disciplined person. He was a help not help buff,

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Speaker 1: and he did read a lot. He was a reader,

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Speaker 1: and he had a didn't have much formal education, but

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Speaker 1: by most accounts he had a sharp mind. Um So

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Speaker 1: he was not a man without admirable qualities. And in fact,

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Speaker 1: if he had chosen a different course in life, has

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Speaker 1: pretty good chance he would have been successful at it

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Speaker 1: as a businessman or as as something other than a gangster.

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Speaker 1: But he committed these horrific crimes over the years and

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Speaker 1: got away with it. And I believe that he and

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Speaker 1: his partner entered into a state of delusionary delusions of grandeur,

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Speaker 1: believing that they could murder at will and get away

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Speaker 1: with it, because they did for a long period of time.

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Speaker 1: And I don't I just I guess psychologically, when a

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Speaker 1: guy goes that far out there, maybe he's not able

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Speaker 1: to bring himself back from that and address himself in

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Speaker 1: the world around him with any kind of reality. Listen

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Speaker 1: to more Coast to Coast a m every weeknight at

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Speaker 1: one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to Coast

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Speaker 1: am dot com for more