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Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati this week how to

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Speaker 1: be bullish on climate tech. Everywhere you look it seems

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Speaker 1: like bad news for climate tech. Investments are down, the

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Speaker 1: US government has cut incentives, and startups are starting to

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Speaker 1: run out of cash. But some people are still bullish.

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Speaker 1: They believe that the fundamentals are in place, the solutions

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Speaker 1: are only getting better, and green tech will continue to

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Speaker 1: get cheaper, even start to displace fossil fuels. Vinoth Cosla

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Speaker 1: is one of them.

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Speaker 2: Mostly in business, people look for lowering the probability of failure,

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Speaker 2: even if it lowers.

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Speaker 3: The consequences of success.

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Speaker 2: My personal entire life is dedicated to i'twind the probability

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Speaker 2: of but I want the consequences success to be consequential.

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Speaker 1: Vinode is as close to Silicon Valley royalty as you

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Speaker 1: can get. In the nineteen eighties, he started Sun Microsystems,

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Speaker 1: which was eventually acquired by Oracle in twenty ten for

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Speaker 1: seven point four billion dollars. In two thousand and four,

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Speaker 1: he founded Coaslaw Ventures, a firm that has backed big

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Speaker 1: tech success stories like Door, dash, Stripe, and Instacart. He

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Speaker 1: also invests in climate startups such as impossible foods and

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Speaker 1: Commonwealth fusion systems. Though Vinod was a longtime Republican voter,

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Speaker 1: last year before the US elections, he came out in

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Speaker 1: support for Kamala Harris. Now he remains skeptical of the

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Speaker 1: Trump administration, but he is open minded about what Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump could do and is doing for clean energy. That's despite,

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Speaker 1: of course, the One Big Beautiful Bill, which has reversed

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Speaker 1: many of the climate policies and incentives that the US

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Speaker 1: government used to have. Regular listeners of the podcast will

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Speaker 1: remember my conversation with Winnowed last year where he talked

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Speaker 1: about his feud with Elon Musk before the twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: four elections. Last week, I caught up with Winnode again

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Speaker 1: for a live conversation at the Bloomberg Green event in

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Speaker 1: Seattle to find out when we can expect to see fusion,

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Speaker 1: whether he's reconsidering investing in the US, and why he

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Speaker 1: still thinks the best clean tech is yet to come.

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Speaker 1: Good morning, Winolt. We are in beautiful Seattle. There's going

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Speaker 1: to be a lot of discussion today about climate change,

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Speaker 1: about what needs to be done to tackle it, but

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Speaker 1: we should start with the headline, which is the tax

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Speaker 1: and spending bill that present from signed into law is

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Speaker 1: going to reduce clean energy spending by one estimate, by

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Speaker 1: five hundred billion dollars over the next five years, and

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Speaker 1: as a result, all estimates show that the US is

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Speaker 1: going to miss its twenty thirty climate goals. Is much

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Speaker 1: that climate advocates don't like about the bill, But you

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Speaker 1: wrote in a recent op ed that you are happy

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Speaker 1: that the tax credits that were going to win solar

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Speaker 1: and electric vehicles have been cut. Why because there's better

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Speaker 1: uses for the money. Very simply, you know, these subsidies

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Speaker 1: once they start perpetuate and there isn't Energy is a

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Speaker 1: serious business. You can't subsidize.

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Speaker 2: All of energy at scale. So when do you stop them?

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Speaker 2: I think by the time they are a few percent

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Speaker 2: less than five percent off the market they're serving. Subsidies

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Speaker 2: in every industry should always start be high, be declining

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Speaker 2: over time, and by the time there are a few

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Speaker 2: percent of a segment, they should be stopped and the

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Speaker 2: money should go to better uses.

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Speaker 1: The Cormpan administration has made a clearer doesn't care very

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Speaker 1: much about climate change. But the US Congress before the

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Speaker 1: bill passed, did protect some clean energy tax credits so

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Speaker 1: there are tax credits that remain for nuclear for geothermal,

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Speaker 1: do you think those tax credits would be enough to

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Speaker 1: get nuclear? Well, nuclear, traditional nuclear is already at a

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Speaker 1: high percentage, but we are talking about advanced nuclear, which

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Speaker 1: doesn't really exist today, and geothermal, which again traditional version

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Speaker 1: is in small amounts, but advanced geothermal doesn't really exist today.

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Speaker 1: Do you think the tax preens that we do have

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Speaker 1: in the bill will be enough to get nuclear and

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Speaker 1: geothermal to the level you want it to reach.

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Speaker 3: So each technology is a little bit different.

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Speaker 2: Nuclear problem isn't that it doesn't have enough subsidies. Nuclear

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Speaker 2: problem is nimbiism has held it back. Every nuclear project

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Speaker 2: takes ten years longer than you think it well because

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Speaker 2: people like gain fund us so the thick I overjoke.

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Speaker 2: Environmentalists got more core plants to be built in this

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Speaker 2: country than anybody else by stopping nuclear in the seventies

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Speaker 2: and eighties, and that gives very unfortunate because they're not

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Speaker 2: thoughtful about what's the replacement. So nuclear's problem is nimbeism.

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Speaker 2: Super hot geothermal, there's old geothermal, and I include companies

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Speaker 2: like Fervo and others in old geothermal essentially below what's

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Speaker 2: called supercritical steam. Steam above a certain temperature, which is

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Speaker 2: around four hundred degrees has way more energy content. So

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Speaker 2: four hundred and fifty degrees sandigrade well will have five

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Speaker 2: times the amount of energy that at two hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty degrees sandi grade Worldwille and you have to be

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Speaker 2: realistic about it. So the problem isn't geothermal. The problem

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Speaker 2: is the economics of geothermal. Subsidies will help, but what

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Speaker 2: really helps is developing technology to drill to four h

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Speaker 2: and fifty degrees because normal metal drill bits collapse well

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Speaker 2: before that temperature. So it's getting to the right temperature

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Speaker 2: and the right technical breakthroughs, and nobody's doing that today.

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Speaker 2: We have a couple of efforts in our portfolio, hard

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Speaker 2: efforts to go at that. But if you do that,

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Speaker 2: you don't have to worry about climate because your tumble

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Speaker 2: will be cheaper.

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Speaker 3: Than natural gas.

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Speaker 2: Unsubsidized subsidies will help, But in fact it's really not

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Speaker 2: a problem in geo tumble. It's just not enough people

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Speaker 2: have worked on the hard problem. They've worked on hand

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Speaker 2: baby problems.

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Speaker 1: And so let's take them one by one. Because you've

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Speaker 1: invested in nuclear.

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Speaker 2: By the way, we didn't talk about fusion, which I'm

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Speaker 2: exactley very bullish on. I think five years from now

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Speaker 2: nobody will be talking about alternatives to fusion as a

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Speaker 2: power source for the planet for the next fifty years.

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Speaker 1: Well, you were on the podcast last year and you

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Speaker 1: said in five years from twenty twenty four, there will

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Speaker 1: be a nuclear fusion plant.

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Speaker 3: It's four years now, left, Okay, there will be a

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Speaker 3: new Cleobe.

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Speaker 2: Well, no, I think I very precisely said nobody will

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Speaker 2: debate whether fusion will work, which means we will have

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Speaker 2: demonstrated positive energy, and we will have very clear idea

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Speaker 2: of the economic subfufusion plan and scaling of fusion plans.

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Speaker 2: All those are very very doable. I expect it will

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Speaker 2: happen much before twenty twenty eight or twenty twenty nine.

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Speaker 2: Five years from last year would be twenty twenty nine.

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure one of the dozen reasonable efforts will

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Speaker 2: prove out that it is going to be a viable

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Speaker 2: energy source. And there's a dozen efforts. Only one needs

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Speaker 2: to work to solve the planet's energy problem. Only one

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Speaker 2: geothermal technology needs to work. And I'm a big fan

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Speaker 2: of nuclear too, just it has the social problems of nimbiism.

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Speaker 1: We're talking here within very high timelines. So if you

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Speaker 1: go back to the bill again, estimates show that price

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Speaker 1: of electricity is going to go up as a result

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Speaker 1: of these tax credit cuts, but also because of shortages

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Speaker 1: of equipment, simple stuff like transformers, like cables, things that

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Speaker 1: we've covered here at bloombergreen that are becoming a bottleneck

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Speaker 1: to build out the grid for all the electricity demand,

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Speaker 1: especially from AI that's coming. So if electricity prices go up,

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Speaker 1: building power regardless of where it's coming from new technologies,

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Speaker 1: all technologies is hard. Do you think that becomes the

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Speaker 1: bottleneck for the AI ambitions that America has. It's not researchers,

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Speaker 1: it's not startups, it's not investors putting money.

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Speaker 2: I think you're confusing a number of things. The subsidies

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Speaker 2: have nothing to do with electricity prices going up.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Solar subsidies will slow down the deployment of solar, agree,

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Speaker 2: but it's still cheaper for intermittent power than any other

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Speaker 2: source of energy. So if you're trying to use intermittent

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Speaker 2: power and come up with clever strategies, For example, production

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Speaker 2: of hydrogen can be done with intermittent power.

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Speaker 3: You want the cheapest power.

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Speaker 2: You want solar and wind to produce hydrogen, but you

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Speaker 2: don't want solar and wind to power a home because

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Speaker 2: you want to watch the football game when it's on,

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Speaker 2: not when the wind's blowing or the sun shining. This

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Speaker 2: is silliness. There's related concepts. Net zero is the worst

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Speaker 2: idea I've ever heard for homes, but environmental is keep

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Speaker 2: pushing this bad, uneconomic idea as if economics don't matter.

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Speaker 1: By prices of electricity, we'll go up, not just because

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Speaker 1: of the tax guys, but because of all these bottlenecks

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Speaker 1: to the being.

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Speaker 2: So I think the price of electricity will go up

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Speaker 2: because the demand has surprised us, and demand projections for

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Speaker 2: the next five ten years have surprised us. With the

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Speaker 2: advent of AI, h is two years old. You know,

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Speaker 2: AI didn't have any deployment two years ago, or minimal deployment,

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Speaker 2: and suddenly it's going to be the large consumer of power.

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Speaker 2: So the change in demand is what has caused the problem. Now,

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Speaker 2: nimbiism like grid again is going to be a problem.

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Speaker 3: But data centers don't need the grid.

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Speaker 2: You can put the data center where the power sources,

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Speaker 2: So I do think grid helps, But the demand problem

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Speaker 2: is created by the projected increase in demand from AI

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Speaker 2: data centers, which can be located near power.

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Speaker 1: So the challenge of the AI data centers is that

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Speaker 1: they want power all the time, and so you're going

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Speaker 1: to build solar next to the data center, you're not

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Speaker 1: going to be able to run it all the time.

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Speaker 1: That's why they're relying on gas, which is getting harder

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Speaker 1: to build because gas turbines are difficult. So the question

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Speaker 1: is do you worry about the fact that America's competitiveness

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Speaker 1: on AI will be held back because if energy issues broadly,

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Speaker 1: not just renewables or not.

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Speaker 2: I do worry talked about data centers a lot. I

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Speaker 2: think the answer to that is scaling capacity. I do

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Speaker 2: think super hot geothermal is a perfect technology for that.

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Speaker 2: Twenty thirty five on, it will all be fusion as

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Speaker 2: the scaling technology and super hart geothermal. Hopefully nuclear too,

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Speaker 2: but again citing nuclear is very hard. But you can

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Speaker 2: put a data center right next to a nuclear plant

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Speaker 2: without needing a grade because that's the right way to

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Speaker 2: do data. So data center demand is different because it

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Speaker 2: doesn't put as much of attax on the grid, if.

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Speaker 1: It's not attached to the grid, and if it's attached

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Speaker 1: to a powerline on its own or close by.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now, you invest in a lot of companies that are

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Speaker 1: American that are started here, that are startups over here.

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Speaker 1: Those companies are created by people often who have come

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Speaker 1: to this country like you came to this country. And

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Speaker 1: there have been over the past six months difficulties. University

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Speaker 1: funding has been cut. This bill cuts a lot of

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Speaker 1: science funding. Do you worry that the level of ideas

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Speaker 1: that you are able to get hold off to be

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Speaker 1: able to invest in these companies is going to reduce

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Speaker 1: and that again affects America's competitiveness.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, most of you should.

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Speaker 2: Now, I am vehemently against Trump in the current administration

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Speaker 2: and its value system. So you know, even though I

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Speaker 2: agree with certain things they've done, I mostly disagree with

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Speaker 2: their policies, immigration being one of them. They will shut

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Speaker 2: down the import of talent, which is the key to growth.

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Speaker 2: So if I were to look at and I had

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Speaker 2: an op ed in The Economist a week ago, and

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Speaker 2: just this week Chris Wright, the Energy Secretary, had another

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Speaker 2: op ed.

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Speaker 3: He said, all we need is energy.

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Speaker 2: I do think we need energy, but we need more

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Speaker 2: importantly talent, and talent they're shutting off with their approach

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Speaker 2: to immigration. Even the people who will legally immigrate don't

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Speaker 2: like a hostile environment to go into. So we will

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Speaker 2: reduce talented immigration of PhDs and people equipped to solve

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Speaker 2: climate and other technology problems into this country. Unfortunately, what

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Speaker 2: will you do as a result. You're an investor, you

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Speaker 2: invest in companies.

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Speaker 1: You have capital that you want to put towards these ideas.

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Speaker 1: Do you just go outside America?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, Look, people are anyway going outside America, and so

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Speaker 2: most companies have multiple locations within America and outside America

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Speaker 2: to go seek the talent. When Russia became a pariah

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Speaker 2: with the Ukraine attack, people set up new offices in

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Speaker 2: Turkey so they could take advantage of them because those

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Speaker 2: scientists didn't want to work aligned with Putin's regime. So

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Speaker 2: talent will flow to wherever they're welcomed, and they're very

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Speaker 2: much in human. I mean, there's some of the salaries

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Speaker 2: in the SAI space. Two hundred and fifty million dollars

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Speaker 2: a year, million dollars a day. Those numbers aren't unheard of.

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Speaker 2: In fact, they're sort of becoming more common than I'd

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Speaker 2: like to see. But talent drives everything, maybe even more

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Speaker 2: than energy.

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Speaker 1: And so are used to to do that. Are you

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Speaker 1: looking at startups in other countries?

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Speaker 2: And well, we've always looked at startups in all countries.

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Speaker 2: I think the bulka of our effort is in the

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Speaker 2: US still and will continue to be. But we look

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Speaker 2: at talent everywhere.

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Speaker 1: And where do you think are the emerging hubs?

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Speaker 2: Well, leaving aside China because I'm very hawkish on China.

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Speaker 2: I think there's some evil regimes in the on this planet.

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Speaker 2: India's Great Hub, Canada's great Hub. You know, there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of talent in Canada. AI started around Toronto in

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Speaker 2: that area, so a lot of talent there. But frankly,

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Speaker 2: talent everywhere is being repurposed into this AI domain.

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Speaker 1: After the break I talked with we know about the

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Speaker 1: pace of innovation and the consequences of failure. And hey,

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Speaker 1: if you're finding this episode inside, well, please take a

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Speaker 1: moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts

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Speaker 1: and Spotify. Your feedback really matters and helps new listeners

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Speaker 1: discover the show. Thank you. If you stick to climate tech.

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Speaker 1: The level of investment has been going down. Just total

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Speaker 1: investment in climate tech has been going down for quite

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Speaker 1: some years. The latest figures that we have for the

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Speaker 1: first half of this year is thirteen point two billion

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Speaker 1: dollars invested in climate tech. That's down about nineteen percent.

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Speaker 1: You invest in a lot more than climate has your

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Speaker 1: own spending in climate tech gone down as well?

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Speaker 3: No, I think it's been pretty consistent. The thing you

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Speaker 3: have to forget.

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Speaker 2: Is these aggregated numbers are mostly irrelevant to somebody in

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Speaker 2: my part of the climate world, which is breakthrough technologies.

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Speaker 2: So my personal view, unless you have breakthrough technologies, you're

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Speaker 2: not going to get broad deployment. Even if you did

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Speaker 2: regulation in the EU and you got shut down all

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Speaker 2: their steel mills, they're going to get steel from somewhere,

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Speaker 2: and that's not going to come from a country that's

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Speaker 2: adapted green steel.

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Speaker 3: At twice the price.

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Speaker 2: So most of the efforts on steel are relatively poor efforts.

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Speaker 2: In Sweden, there's a green steel effort, there's a couple

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Speaker 2: of steel green steel efforts in this area. I think

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Speaker 2: they're generally poor efforts. Why because when they're successful, they

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Speaker 2: are not cheaper than regular steel. We have efforts, it

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Speaker 2: was only attempt is to get cheaper than regular steel

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Speaker 2: and have low carbon emissions. And it's an and, not or,

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Speaker 2: and that's what's key for broad deployment of any of

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Speaker 2: these technologies. So my and that doesn't come for we

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Speaker 2: have a much higher risk of failing because we are

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Speaker 2: taking much more technical risk. In steel, we're taking way

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Speaker 2: more technical risk than anybody. But I'm pretty certain we

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Speaker 2: have steel salt or steel will be cheaper than cold

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Speaker 2: based steel in this country or in China. If that's

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Speaker 2: the case, there's no reason, whether you care about climate

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Speaker 2: or not, to build anything but the cheapest steel. And

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Speaker 2: we can use the cheapest ores. The enrichment ores are

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Speaker 2: what matter because they're cheap and they make your steel cheaper.

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Speaker 2: Same thing in cemac or cement plants and we are

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Speaker 2: repurposing cement are actually costs less per ton for far

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Speaker 2: lower carbon, but the far lower carbon comes for free.

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Speaker 2: And that is my point. Taking more technical risk is

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Speaker 2: not about billions. It's about millions taking small amounts of

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Speaker 2: money on projects that most likely will fail, but if

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Speaker 2: they succeed, they change the world, Versus things that are

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Speaker 2: incrementally better, are better than anything else, but not good

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Speaker 2: enough to compete with fossil.

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Speaker 1: So I want to come to breakthrough technologies. But there's

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Speaker 1: one point that you make. So in Europe ED you

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Speaker 1: talk about green steel, green cement, you talk about geothermal

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Speaker 1: and nuclear. But these products require a market that you know,

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Speaker 1: if it's cheaper than the alternative, you don't need to

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Speaker 1: work sell. But you are also entering a space in

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Speaker 1: the Trump administration that is biasing the market for more carbon.

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Speaker 1: So their tax credits for oil and gas drilling, that

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Speaker 1: tax credits for metallurgical coal in this bill. Now, venture capitalists,

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Speaker 1: not just you, but others have told me, like, we

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Speaker 1: don't invest in companies based on government policy. We like

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Speaker 1: the companies to succeed on their own. But when the

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Speaker 1: market is being biased for carbon, how do you compete?

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Speaker 2: No question, the fossil industry is on the inn in Washington, DC,

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Speaker 2: and they've received trillions of dollars of subsidies over time,

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Speaker 2: whether you're talking about a favorable tax policy like MLPs

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Speaker 2: or master limited partnerships or advantage tax treatment, or the

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Speaker 2: billions and billions or one hundred billions we spend providing

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Speaker 2: security for oil in the mid East. That's a subsidy

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Speaker 2: because we are providing security to oil lanes. Those are

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Speaker 2: all subsidies in my view, But the current administration won't

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Speaker 2: acknowledge that. So what can you do?

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Speaker 1: Then? Let's come to the breakthrough technology a part, because

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Speaker 1: one reason you won't invest in a company is it's

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Speaker 1: not going to be profitable, but another and a more

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Speaker 1: intriguing excellent This is something you've talked about, but also

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Speaker 1: your fellow Silicon Valley billionaire Peter Thiel, has talked about that.

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Speaker 1: Regardless of the politics, the pace of truly transformational breakthroughs

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Speaker 1: in science and technology has been slowing down.

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Speaker 3: Do you agree?

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Speaker 2: I do generally agree, and people are looking for easier

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Speaker 2: So mostly in business, people look for lowering the probability

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Speaker 2: of failure, even if it lowers.

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Speaker 3: The consequences of success.

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Speaker 2: My personal entire life is dedicated to I don't mind

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Speaker 2: the probability of failure, but I want the consequences of

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Speaker 2: success to be consequential. If have ten efforts, one of

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Speaker 2: them produces cheaper stale, it makes up for all the

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Speaker 2: other losses. Now, this is the technology that not only

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Speaker 2: is the steal for the world, that's low carbon, but

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Speaker 2: also American manufacturing, prowess in exports, and all the good

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Speaker 2: things any traditional business person would recognize. I think we

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Speaker 2: have that and still done. I think we have that

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Speaker 2: done in Semang. I think fusion will get there. Very

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Speaker 2: likely super hot geo thermal will get there. These are

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Speaker 2: core technologies. And you know, as much as I'm not

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Speaker 2: a fan of Alant, he's done a good job with EVS.

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Speaker 2: There's no chance any policy would have achieved what he

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Speaker 2: achieved by just bearing on EVS.

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Speaker 1: You know, you talked about some environmentalists who have, you know,

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Speaker 1: stop nuclear plants and as a result, have ended up

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Speaker 1: building more coal power plants. You know, you could break

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Speaker 1: up the environmental movement in many parts or you know,

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Speaker 1: different philosophies. One of the philosophies is what is yours,

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Speaker 1: which is you have breakthrough technologies, and because they're cheaper,

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Speaker 1: the market for those technologies wins out. There's another philosophy,

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Speaker 1: which is we already have most of the technologies, not

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Speaker 1: all of them, but most of the technologies that we need.

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Speaker 1: We just need to build them out and build them

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Speaker 1: out quickly. Now, if you are worried about breakthroughs, declining

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Speaker 1: or slowing down? Would you be betting on Well, let's

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Speaker 1: double down on what exists and deploy it.

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Speaker 2: No, that's a silly notion, and a few people have

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Speaker 2: pushed that idea, and it's a bad idea. In fact,

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Speaker 2: two years ago, for I think twenty twenty two, i'd

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Speaker 2: OPAD and economies the fundamentally argue that to get to

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Speaker 2: zero carbon emissions by twenty fifty, we'd have to give

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Speaker 2: up the goal, give up the goal for lower emissions

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Speaker 2: by twenty thirty, because if you're deploying poor technologies. More broadly,

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Speaker 2: we have less money to deploy breakthrough technologies, ain less

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Speaker 2: money to invest in breakthrough technologies, So we can shoot

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Speaker 2: for twenty thirty goals or twenty fifty much better for

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Speaker 2: the planet. And of course we don't know how much

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Speaker 2: time we have on the planet before we get exponential

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Speaker 2: increase in temperatures and climate effects. It's better to develop

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Speaker 2: the right technologies and deploy them broadly, then take what

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Speaker 2: we have and try and deploy them. We saw the

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Speaker 2: disaster in the Spains electric grid not very long ago.

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Speaker 2: That can happen here too, So I do think we

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Speaker 2: need to be very thoughtful and very businesslide. Even if

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Speaker 2: we do it, India is not going to do it.

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Speaker 2: Today India is one of the fastest growing solar markets,

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Speaker 2: but goal is growing faster. More coal is being deployed

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Speaker 2: than ever being deployed before, and that the same is

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Speaker 2: true I think similarly of China. So we can look

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Speaker 2: at the solar numbers which have been climbing, but it's

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Speaker 2: because total demand for energy is large, and some things

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Speaker 2: work with intimittent power, and it's cheaper to do intimittent power,

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Speaker 2: so we should do that with intermittent power.

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Speaker 3: Other things have to have reliable power.

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Speaker 1: So the Spain and Portugual are spectacular examples of country

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Speaker 1: wide blackout and you know, make headlines around the world.

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Speaker 1: But there's an OECD ranking of countries that suffer outages

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Speaker 1: and the number of hours that are lost because of blackouts.

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Speaker 1: The US ranks five ranks higher than Spain when it

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Speaker 1: comes to just reliability of power. But let's take the

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Speaker 1: last question or time is running out. What do you

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Speaker 1: think is the kind of lasting damage that will come

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Speaker 1: from this Trump administration we've had. This is the second term,

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Speaker 1: and if there is a more climate positive president at

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Speaker 1: some point, what can be undone well.

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Speaker 2: I think the biggest damage is to slow down in

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Speaker 2: the import of talent from all parts of the world.

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Speaker 2: That's immigration that reduces our ability to have the kinds

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Speaker 2: of breakthroughs that make the economics possible, that will give

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Speaker 2: us the technologies that can solve climate and economic growth together.

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Speaker 2: Thank you enough, Thank you, Thank you everybody.

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Speaker 1: And thank you for listening to zero. And now for

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Speaker 1: the sound of the week. If you haven't guessed already,

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Speaker 1: that is the sound of a mosquito. Around the world,

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00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: mosquito bond illnesses are becoming more prevalent as temperatures rise.

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Speaker 1: In Singapore, scientists are releasing lap bread mosquitoes into the

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00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: wild to help combat the spread of Dengi fever. Read

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00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 1: more about the project than others like it on Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: dot com. If you like this episode, please take a

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Speaker 1: moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts

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Speaker 1: and Spotify. Share this episode with a friend or with

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Speaker 1: someone who's too scared of failure. This episode was produced

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Speaker 1: by Oscar boyd Our. Theme music is composed by Wondering

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Speaker 1: Special thanks to Brian Kahan, Michelle ma Eleanor Harrison Dungate,

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Speaker 1: Jessica beck Shawan, Wagner, Mech Sabo Abbi Danzig and Crystal

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Speaker 1: concre ras I am Akshatrati back soon